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Speaker Mike Johnson Faces Uphill Battle Amidst GOP Division And Freedom Caucus Demands; Johnson On Track To Lose First Speaker Vote; House GOP Divisions Test Speaker Johnson's Leadership Amid Tight Vote. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired January 03, 2025 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

PATRICK MCHENRY, (R) FORMER SPEAKER PRO TEMPORE: And you can raise money online in an instant, you have enormous political power that is different structurally than where we were in, let's say, the 70s or the 80s. But in this situation, what we're looking at right here is the small group of people, Ralph Norman, Andy Biggs, two very important peoples for these negotiations being in the -- they're now in the cloakroom with Johnson and one of Johnson's aides, who's formerly a Trump, a political aid.

And so the negotiations are happening right now. We're going to understand what -- what the contours of that are, what they want. Right now, there is no public show of what they actually want.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Yeah.

MCHENRY: Is it a policy objective? Is it a process --

TAPPER: Let's find out. Because I think Dana has with her one of the individuals who is part of the House Freedom Caucus, although voted for Speaker Johnson, but was anticipating a number of no votes, abstentions, and his prediction was correct. And that's Congressman Tim Burchett of Tennessee. Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Yes. Thank you so much. And Congressman, thank you for being here.

REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): Thank you.

BASH: We just, I don't know, five minutes ago or so, were watching the goings on -- on the floor. You sat down next to the speaker, you were telling him something. Can you enlighten us? What's going on?

BURCHETT: Yeah, I was telling him what I thought of what was going on and I felt where he could meet with some folks one on one away from everybody thumping their chests at him.

BASH: So who is he meeting with? What's happening?

BURCHETT: He's meeting with -- I'd say he's meeting with the ones who didn't vote for him would be my guess --

BASH: So there are three of -- so there's --

BURCHETT: I discount Thomas Massie --

BASH: Because Thomas Massie's never going to --

BURCHETT: I would -- no, Thomas has already said he's not for him and he's not going to. He's a principal guy and I'm not --

BASH: Okay, so we're talking about Ralph Norman and Keith Self? Do I have that, right?

BURCHETT: (Inaudible). Yeah, I'd say that's right.

BASH: Okay, so we --

BURCHETT: I think he'll meet with them individually and -- and try to get to appoint because, you see, you had so many other holdouts and they were sending a message by passing.

BASH: What was that message?

BURCHETT: I think that they were --

BASH: Well, you're one of them. So what --

BURCHETT: No, ma'am. I --

BASH: Oh, no, you weren't. You voted. Yes --

BURCHETT: I voted for him. Yes, ma'am.

BASH: Forgive me.

BURCHETT: That's okay. That's okay. No, I -- I think they just want him to know there's an issue with the Freedom Caucus and -- and they would like to see Chip Roy as chairman of The Rules Committee.

Now, outside of these -- these walls of Congress, I doubt anybody really gives a rip. Maybe people in Chip's district do, but it's important to them, and it's something that they'd like to see. They like to see more conservative representation. I think that's part of the problem that we have with the spending.

We just feel like things get to us on the floor and we have little or no say about it. You know, I'm -- I'm not in the Freedom Caucus. I just vote as vote conservative as they do.

BASH: Because the Rules Committee is the one in the House of Representatives that really determines how things are going to go --

BURCHETTE: Yes, ma'am.

BASH: -- on the House floor. It's very different from the Senate. This is key. Speaker Johnson said to my colleagues this morning, he's not going to do that.

BURCHETT: NO, no.

BASH: (Inaudible) asked specifically --

BURCHETT: Yes, ma'am.

BASH: -- will you allow Chip Roy to be Rules Chair? And he said no.

BURCHETT: And then --

BASH: Do you think he means it?

BASH I do. But I think also they -- they want to know that they have a conservative voice. They want to know that the Mike Johnson that they elected speaker the first time is going to be the Mike Johnson they elected the second time. And we've had -- we had a little bit of falling out on those -- those last three bills that we ended up voting for. One, of course, I did not.

But just the spending that was involved in that and lifting the caps and things like that. We thought there was a disconnect between President Trump, the Speaker, and us, and we felt like that we were not informed of what was going on.

BASH: And just to sort of make sure that our viewers understand what is happening as we speak. You came off the floor to come and speak to us,

BURCHETT: Yes, ma'am.

BASH: -- which -- which we appreciate.

Burchett: Gladly.

BASH: The vote is not closed. The first vote is not closed. So even though three Republicans have voted effectively against Mike Johnson, what it sounds like you helped arrange was a conversation that he's having as we speak with Keith Self and with Ralph Norman.

BURCHETT: Yeah.

BASH: What are they asking for in addition to Rules Chair, which it sounds like they're not --

BURCHETT: Right. I agree with you. I think they'll write that portion off. Because you saw Chip Roy that I thought was very statesmanlike, begrudgingly but he did vote for Mike Johnson. I think they're going to ask for just a voice.

I think at this point, you know, it's not to save face, but you have to go back to your constituents and say, I asked for this and I got it. It's not necessarily a quid pro quo. It's -- but it's a -- I think there's a psychological aspect to it, but there's also a real aspect of the fact that they want more fiscal restraint. And I believe that's what needs to -- that that message needs to be conveyed.

[14:05:00] And I suspect President Trump would be calling them. If I know President Trump --

BASH: They're probably on the phone right now.

BURCHETT: I would say that would not be. But I would -- I know -- I hate to correct you, but the vote apparently has been closed now.

BASH: Oh, it has been closed?

BURCHETT: Yes, ma'am. Well, I -- well, that's -- the reason I say that, I was of that belief, and I wasn't going to leave the floor, but I actually reached over and asked Speaker Johnson because I had to get it from the horse's mouth. So --

BASH: Okay, well --

BURCHETT: And if I get a text from Speaker Johnson's, if where the heck are you? Then I'm going to.

BASH: Yeah.

BURCHETT: I'm going to leave you all.

BASH: Well, you let us know. He can just give you a call.

BURCHETT: Yes, ma'am.

BASH: We can get him right on the air.

BURCHETT: No, I'm just getting somebody calling me now that my dog's out. So we're good.

BASH: There you go. All right. Congressman, former congressman -- former speaker, I suppose, Patrick McHenry was on our air earlier saying that part of the symbolism around the message that we're hearing from these conservatives is that there are potentially enough of them to remove Johnson as speaker under the adjusted rules. Is that part of this, and is that, like, an implicit threat as this is going on?

BURCHETT: Well, it always is. You know, it's a one person -- one person can do that, can bring the speaker up for removal. And I have people saying, remove the speaker now. I said, well, he's not in. He's not in. I mean, you know, we're kind of in a limbo state there. The Constitution provides for that.

But in the new rules packet, they're going to move it, I believe to nine -- nine members. And I think some of the Freedom Caucus asked for five, and they can live with nine, I suspect, and that's where it will move to.

BASH: But the sort of implication being that there may be enough of them together here that we're seeing that could move forward with that. BURCHETT: Oh, 100%, 100%. And they could knock him out of the saddle pretty easily. And I think that's in the back of everybody's mind. But I also think that, you know, I've been one of those, and it was six. And I can't tell you how many members came up to me and said, oh, Burchett, I was counting, and I'm glad you voted that way. I was going to jump in if I needed to.

And I'm like, yeah, right. You know, I mean, I get that it's human nature, and everybody wants to be in the middle of a -- everybody wants to be in the middle of the fight and -- but I tell you, when you're getting yelled at from all sides and the world spotlight is on you, it gets a little tougher than what's going on right now.

BASH: How committed do you think President Elect Trump is to a speaker Mike Johnson?

BURCHETT: He's very committed. He spoke about it. That's his thing. If he -- if he puts his stamp on it, I think he -- he is behind it. And I respect that. That weighed heavy on a lot of guys.

You saw some immediately as soon as he came out with that endorsement, because I encouraged that. I was actually -- I might have been talking to you one night on one of your news programs and I said that if it's going to boil down if Donald Trump gets involved, and apparently I was alerted by the speaker that he saw that interview and actually that's why they didn't endorse at Mar-a-Lago. They endorsed that night. He started the next morning endorsing --

BASH: Oh, it's nice to know he watches State of the Union.

BURCHETT: I would say if he was asked, it's probably one of his staff saw and told him, but I'm not sure. But anyway --

BASH: I just -- I know you have to get back to the --

BURCHETT: That's okay, ma'am --

BASH: -- floor. I just want a bottom line --

BURCHETT: I can pass and make them all nervous.

BASH: Okay.

BURCHETT: And then I can get -- I can get a bridge or something or an aquarium or something in my district. I don't know.

BASH: All right, well, I don't want to stop you from that (inaudible).

BURCHETT: No, you're fine, ma'am. They'll text me.

BASH: Bottom line this. Will Mike Johnson become speaker relatively soon? Meaning will he make a deal or will he convince, or maybe Donald Trump convince those two that he is meeting with right now, one of whom -- actually both of whom he needs?

BURCHETT: I would say if it doesn't happen that next few hours, it probably won't happen. I'd say you'll see them peel off and you'll see a Jim Jordan or Byron Donalds or somebody like that. But I always warned those guys, you know, Daddy was in the Second World War in the Pacific and got a little island called Peleliu.

And the guy on that amphibious craft, they were fighting the Japanese and it was awful. And they were coming in on the shore and the guy in the front of the amphibious craft was young guy cussing how he was going to get after those blankety (ph) blanks. And then he looked in the back and there was an old timer back there smoking a cigarette, undid his helmet and was probably praying.

Daddy said that's the guy I'm going with because the guy -- the first one over the -- over the top is likely the one to get shot. So the next person that jumps into this thing could get shot and I would say, not literally but figuratively, politically, and I would say you would see a third round person probably be the one that would get it, in my opinion. I could be wrong but that's generally the way these things go.

BASH: I said one last question but now I really --

BURCHETT: Yeah, you --

BASH: What does it say about (inaudible) --

BURCHETT: You're CNN and I'm a conservative so I'm supposed to say, oh, yeah, sure (inaudible).

BASH: What does it say about Donald Trump if Mike Johnson does it -- like how much of a -- of a question of Trump's ability to lead and to --

BURCHETT: I don't think it says anything, I think what it says the follow up is what will say it.

[14:10:01]

His phone call with these folks afterwards after they -- they do this and with no clear plan and you know what -- where we going to after this. A good pool player.

When I play pool, I'm just hitting the dagum (ph) cue ball into the next ball. A good pool player is looking at third or fourth shot, after that, where the ball is going and where it ends up. Donald Trump is a good pool player. He sees what's going on. He knows we've got a three person majority. He's going to have to rein it in, rein these folks in. And I think he will. I don't think it shows any negative.

And if we were off the record or on the record, I'd tell you the same thing. I don't think it shows anything other than you got a bunch of independent minds up here and everybody's sort of sewing their -- their oats right now. And I think we'll pull it together.

BASH: All right. World War II, pool, you got a lot of analogies --

BURCHETT: I mentioned my dog, (inaudible) -- BASH: I'm glad your dog's okay.

BURCHETT: Yes, ma'am. He's good.

BASH: Thank you for coming over here.

BURCHETT: Ma'am, it's been a pleasure and I always enjoy being on with you all.

BASH: Thank you. Manu, I know you have a member with you as well.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Congressman Dale Strong, who just voted for Mike Johnson. What's your message to those Republicans who voted against Johnson and what are they asking for at this moment?

REP. DALE STRONG (R-AL): Well, some of that is still on the table. What's frustrating is we're sitting here, it's time to certify Donald Trump as the next President of the United States of America. The people throughout America are suffering from inflation, high interest rates, high cost of fuel, high cost of groceries. Let's go in here and let's certify this -- the speaker so we can certify the President and let's start addressing the problems of this country.

This little spitwad fight's got to stop and it's got to stop soon.

RAJU: And you don't -- do you know specifically what they're asking for?

STRONG: Well, I understand everybody's a little frustrated with where we're at, but here's the thing. We have a very thin majority. Everybody understands the southern border is the biggest issue. The other thing is this country's got way too much debt. We've got to deal with that. But we can't do it until we certify and get us a Speaker of the House. It's absolutely setting us back. It's time to move. It's time to vote and put Mike Johnson as the speaker of the House of Representatives.

RAJU: That's the first sentiment that I'm hearing a lot here in the halls here, Dana, frustration from all of Johnson's allies about what's happening on the floor. Dana.

BASH: All right, Manu, thank you so much. We are going to sneak in a quick break as there are serious negotiations going on behind the scenes. A lot of arm twisting and a lot of drama to figure out whether Mike Johnson will get those two additional votes that he needs to become speaker of the House again. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:17:15]

TAPPER: Anxiety and uncertainty on Capitol Hill this afternoon as House Speaker Mike Johnson appears to be on track to lose the first round of voting in his fight for reelection. We're waiting to see what happens next, if Johnson can turn this particular vote around or whether a second vote happens imminently.

Let's start right now with Lauren Fox is on the Hill for us. Lauren, what is happening behind the scenes?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I am outside right now of the House chamber and it's really interesting because some of the Speaker's allies in the Main Street caucus actually came out and spoke to reporters and what they're trying to do right now is really downplay what a big mess this is at the moment.

Making clear Stephanie Bice, she was arguing essentially that this is actually a good sign for Johnson because he lost just a handful of votes that he -- this is not really starting from back where Kevin McCarthy started from back in 2023. I thought that was really interesting, given the dynamics right now. There's a lot of uncertainty. There's a lot of questions about whether Johnson is going to be able to get there and how quickly he can get there.

But a lot of his closest allies making it very clear to the press that they see this is a very different situation than what we saw in 2023. Obviously, time is going to tell, Jake, whether or not that is true, but there is a lot of members who are just frustrated right now about the fact that they want to get to legislating.

They want to get through what is supposed to be a very first step process, something that's supposed to be pretty easy, something that Republicans could rally around. A lot of them were really hoping that Donald Trump's endorsement was going to make a huge difference here. And while Johnson got very close, he was not able so far to clinch this in the first round.

Obviously, there's a lot of conversations happening behind the scenes right now, Jake, and we're keeping a close eye on whether or not there's anything that Johnson can do in this moment. I would just note that this morning when I asked Speaker Johnson whether or not he would make Chip Roy the Rules Committee chairman, that's something that some conservatives have been pushing for. He said he was not making any deals. Obviously, where the votes stand now. We'll see if that remains his position. Jake.

TAPPER: All right, thanks so much. Let's go to Manu Raju right now. Manu, a lot going on behind the scenes. I think technically this first ballot is still open. It has not been gaveled to a close. So, theoretically, any of these three individuals who are House Republicans who do not vote for Speaker Johnson, any -- any -- two of them could change their vote and Speaker Johnson would be, in fact, the Speaker. What are you hearing?

RAJU: Yeah. In fact, we have been told by members of the House Republican Conference that, in fact, the Speaker has been meeting privately with those -- two of those key no votes as Keith Self of Texas and Ralph Norman of South Carolina.

[14:20:04]

And in fact, just moments ago, I saw the speaker walking with Ralph Norman near the House floor. Nowhere where I could reach them, but they were actually on the House floor. The doors had opened and they had walked right by. So there's -- there are clearly discussions that are ongoing. Exactly what the nature of the discussions are, are uncertain.

But Jake, you're absolutely right. The longer they keep this open suggests that perhaps they're trying to put the pressure on to force these members to flip, to ultimately come to Johnson's side. They had been told by about 20 minutes ago or so that they were going to move quickly to the second vote. Something has changed. A belief clearly within the House GOP leadership that perhaps that they could get these members to come on board.

But Jake, as we know, Jonathan said he was not going to be doing any deal cutting. He may be forced to do some deal cutting in order to get some of these members. Keith Self, for one, told me when Johnson cut the deal to keep the government open up until mid-March that happened right before Christmas. He was very angry about that deal making. He said that there need to be, quote, "Single subject spending bills". He did not want multiple subjects on one individual bill like they did in that effort to keep the government open right before December.

Perhaps that's one area of negotiation that they are having right now with the Speaker. Can he get them there? That's the big question. But a lot of movement on the House floor as they're trying to get those two no votes to flip. Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Manu. And let's go over to Kristen Holmes now covering President Elect Trump. Kristen, what is the President Elect doing, if anything, as this all unfolds? Is he calling these holdouts and saying, I need you to vote for Speaker Johnson.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right now, it's unclear whether or not he's in the mix on that or if he's just letting Speaker Johnson handle it. We do know that he is willing to step in and likely to step in if he feels he needs to. We also know that he is following Speaker Johnson's lead.

Just for example, when it comes to endorsing Johnson, he wanted to do it later in the week, this week, and instead Johnson asked him to do it earlier. He said it was important and Trump followed that lead. Now, I did speak to a number of senior advisers and allies as we watched this vote unfold, who all said that they believe Johnson will ultimately still be successful.

They pointed to various numbers. They reminded me that they didn't know about several of these holdouts, how they were going to vote, but ultimately they did come around. They also believe that it is going to be possible to flip at least two of those no votes.

One source is telling me, look, Massie is the only hard no. Everybody else, the other two, they want to make a point. Okay, point made. We still believe Johnson has this. We are still backing Mike Johnson at this point.

So whether or not it ends up being this round, if it ends up being another round, they would not speculate as to how long this could take. There is still a belief among those close to Donald Trump that his endorsement did go very far and that Johnson is going to ultimately be the speaker of the House.

TAPPER: Interesting. Let's talk more about what's going on right now. And former Speaker McHenry, I have to say we keep hearing that Speaker Johnson has not made any deals with anybody. You can color me a little skeptical. This is a room full of 435 of the most ambitious human beings on the face of the planet. Many of them with ambition that far exceeds intellect or other ability. Not you. Present company accepted. I said many, not all, many.

But my point is they're very ambitious. The idea that a -- well, I'm not going to throw out any names, but the idea that some people who are either forces in Congress or potential speakers themselves, and you got to figure there are a few dozen that probably think that they could be as good, if not better speaker than Mike Johnson. I am just skeptical that no deals were cut. And I don't mean that in any pejorative sense. I would expect nothing less from any speaker of the House, regardless of party.

MCHENRY: So if you're running the House of Representatives, you're running any legislative body in America --

TAPPER: Right.

MCHENRY: -- you're running a school board, you're on a neighborhood association, you say as a negotiating stance, there are no deals.

TAPPER: Right.

MCHENRY: That is always the opening bid for a deal. That is how it works.

TAPPER: There are no deals. But the trash is going to pick you -- pick up your garbage first.

MCHENRY: We will not negotiate with terrorists.

TAPPER: Right.

MCHENRY: Unless the terrorists have the vote necessary for me to have win the election. That's the way it works.

And so Speaker Johnson may have said there are no deals, but along the way you make commitments. The steering committee process for committee assignments, who's on the Rules Committee, who's on the Intelligence Committee, who's on the House Administration Committee. Those are three committees purely in the gift of the speaker. And the Minority leader --

TAPPER: Also maybe a hideaway in the Capitol.

MCHENRY: Oh, for sure. Real estate is supremely important. My colleague and friend, Garret Graves, who was instrumental in electing Speaker McCarthy. He, French Hill and I were a key part of the negotiating team two years ago. Got one of the most beautiful hideaway offices in the Capitol with a beautiful view of the Mall. And I would walk down the hall from my hideaway in the Capitol as a committee chair to go admire his view and then tell him what I thought of it.

[14:25:06]

But we're in a situation here where there is no deal with Massie. You cannot offer Thomas Massie anything --

TAPPER: Yeah.

MCHENRY: -- number one. Number two, Keith Self and Ralph Norman. It is unclear to us right now if they want something or they want Johnson's head. Do they want some other speaker? Is that what they're holding out for? They may have offered things publicly, but what they're talking to Johnson about right now is got to be substantially different than what they've said publicly if -- if any history is a guide.

TAPPER: Let me bring in Doug Heye, who was a top staffer for former Republican. I think he was Republican leader Eric Cantor. Is that right, Doug?

DOUG HEYE, FORMER RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: He was, yes.

TAPPER: Okay. Sorry. Going back a few decades there,.

HEYE: Not that long.

TAPPER: Tell me what you think -- well, it seems like another century, quite frankly. Tell me what you think is likely going on right now. Again, time has stopped still in the House of Representatives. That first ballot has still not gaveled to a close, which means that Speaker Johnson and his team are negotiating theoretically with the six former abstentions who then voted for Johnson and the two no votes who are theoretically gettable. What do you think is going on?

It's communications and its conversations, and it's exactly as Congressman McHenry -- former Congressman McHenry, I don't like saying that he was my favorite member of Congress, laid out. What do you need? What can we get for you so we can bring you into the yes column? With Thomas Massie? We know that there's nothing. With the other two, then the other six, right? So we now total the nine who voted not to elect the Speaker. You're trying to get them to yes.

And the problem, I think the challenge that we have right now for Speaker Johnson, and I do expect that he'll -- he'll ultimately win on this next ballot, is that we've seen these same tactics played time and time again. We were talking earlier about John Boehner's election in 2013, and I was reminded of the very famous quote by Ron Burgundy.

We've been coming to the same party for 12 years, and in no way is that depressing, except this is depressing. It's demoralizing as a Republican. And even for Democrats who are eating their popcorn and enjoying the moment, they know this isn't good for the country because this isn't the Senate Majority Leader, where whoever that is matters. But it's not a constitutional role. The speaker of the House is in line for the presidency. It's a constitution and nothing begins. No committees, no bills, no anything until we elect a speaker.

TAPPER: Very interesting stuff. And Ashley Etienne, the idea of deals being cut, again, I don't say that pejoratively that's how Congress works. But surely when she was Speaker, Nancy Pelosi had to cut deals in order to get some of the recalcitrant progressives on her left demanding more, not to mention maybe some of the moderates.

ASHLEY ETIENNE, FORMER SENIOR ADVIDER, SPEAKER PELOSI: Absolutely. You remember in 2018, when she was up for speakership, there were questions about whether or not she was the right person, whether she was too old. So there was --

TAPPER: Seth Moulton of Massachusetts challenging her.

ETIENNE: Absolutely. You had -- we had an issue with the -- the squad. I mean, there were a lot of factions within the party that she had to individually bring in and negotiate. So I do challenge the former speaker's notion that she starts at a -- you start at a no. I mean, she absolutely didn't had her list and would tick off --

TAPPER: Just want to --

ETIENNE: -- each of the members.

TAPPER: Sorry to interrupt. Just want to note that Speaker Johnson has returned to the floor of the House. He is talking to Hakeem Jeffries and others, perhaps some -- some movement. Can we -- can we listen in there or what? Let's just watch. In any case, go ahead.

ETIENNE: Yeah, I was just going to say. But the challenge here is that what the Freedom Caucus wants, Johnson can't deliver on. That's the -- the ultimate challenge here. They want a cut in spending. Donald Trump doesn't want that. They want Democrats not to be involved and to help pass some of these bills, but the margin is too close and too tight. So, yeah, I mean, there is -- there is room for negotiation. So I think if he's smart, he's doing that now.

TAPPER: What is going on right now? Former Speaker McHenry. We have the Republican leader and the Democratic leader talking. What's that all about?

MCHENRY: It's about the courtesy of the schedule. You have members here described -- we described this at the very beginning. It's exciting day. The lights are bright. The chambers is just live. Everything's coiled. From the election to opening day, everything just gets -- all the pressure comes. And this is supposed to be the release valve of just the joy that you're in charge or the joy you're a member of Caucus.

There is Keith Self talking to Speaker Johnson. There's Ralph Norman --

TAPPER: So those two gentlemen right there are the -- are two of the three no votes. Is that right? MCHENRY: That's right. And --

TAPPER: The guy with the glasses is Keith Self.

MCHENRY: Yeah. And that's the back of Mike Johnson's head. There's the former head of the Freedom Caucus, Scott Perry. This all looks pretty jovial and positive. What -- what Hakeem Jeffries was asking about with Johnson is the schedule.

Members have families here. It's opening day stuff. Can you just let us know so we can get people back here? Let's just have some basic courtesy. And that's why it's a -- just a lighthearted moment between the two.