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Congress Certifies Trump's Election Victory; Harris Meeting With House Dem Leader Jeffries; Harris Expected To Speak On Capitol Hill Soon. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired January 06, 2025 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Vice President Kamala Harris presiding over the electoral certification of the election. She lost both Democrats and Republicans recognizing the legitimate election results, something Trump and his supporters refused to do on this date in 2021. Let's go to Manu Raju on Capitol Hill. Manu, what is happening on the Hill now that the certification is over?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there are actually some meetings that are happening, including with the Vice President Kamala Harris meeting with Hakeem Jeffries, the Democratic leader at the moment. We'll see if she has remark that she wants to make to the press in the aftermath of this meeting.

When she walked in to preside today, she did not answer reporters' questions. She has not said a lot since her election loss. But we'll get a sense after this meeting if she has something to say as she walks through those public hallways.

Now, I caught up with a number of Republicans and Democratic senators and House members alike in the aftermath of what happened today. So a lot of Republicans and Democrats, they still have fresh memories, but what happened in -- four years ago before a lot of Republicans, they're indicating that they don't want to remember, really get into detail about how they felt about the events of that day, including the new Senate Majority Leader, John Thune.

I just asked about how he reflects about this day, whether he agrees with Donald Trump's assessment that it was a, quote, "Day of love". Thune did not go that far. In fact, he said, I'm -- I've said what I said about that day. I want to move forward, which is really the sentiment of most Republicans on Capitol Hill. They don't want to talk about what happened four years ago.

They're willing to move ahead. But nevertheless, both sides are happy of a return of normalcy of sorts from these proceedings that just happened in less than an hour, typically the way they have been done up until what happened four years ago. But we'll see what the Vice President has to say if she wants to, say, make any remarks after this meeting with Hakeem Jeffries. That's happening right now, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Manu Raju on the Hill, thanks so much. Dana Bash is also on Capitol Hill. Dana. DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Jake. And I'm joined here now by the new U.S. Senator from California, Democrat Adam Schiff, of course, a former congressman and former member of the January 6th select Committee.

I first want to ask about the moment that you were just a part of -- we were talking just before coming on about the fact that you walked as a new senator across the Capitol. That was the first time you've done that for a joint session. And you were obviously in there as Kamala Harris certified her own loss. The very first time you were a lawmaker, you saw something similar.

SEN. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): I did. I sat on the House floor watching Al Gore, in a very dignified manner, preside over the joint session, a joint session that would essentially hand victory to his opponent. And I again watched here, Kamala Harris simile, very dignified, very poised as she presided over the ceremony, which was eminently peaceful, as it should have been.

But I couldn't help but four years later, four years since that attack, look at different parts of the House floor and say, okay, that's where I was standing when the attack began. That's where I got my gas mask from under the seat. That's where I heard people shouting in the gallery who would later be trapped in the gallery. That's the exit that I had to flee out of. It certainly brought back quite vividly the memories of that day.

BASH: And that was something that you and your colleagues spent time investigating. You filed a very detailed report, and you and others, including President Biden, Vice President Harris campaigned aggressively on the threat that you said that Donald Trump poses to American democracy. And yet here you are, just coming from certifying his election again. Why don't you think the American voters heeded your call?

SCHIFF: It is remarkable to think that the same former President who sat in the White House dining room as that mayhem was being undertaken at the Capitol, sat there for hours, refusing to lift a finger to put an end to the violence, that he will be back sitting in that White House dining room. At the end of the day, I think voters voted the economy.

The most important thing to them was the economy was their desire to have help, meeting their mortgage, paying their rent, bringing the cost of food down. That really quite literally trumped everything else. And it's not, I think that voters were unconcerned, didn't care, don't care about our democracy. They do. But there were things that they cared about even more. And making sure they could provide for their family was at the top of the list.

BASH: So let's talk about that. One big question for Democrats, you leading among them is how are you going to handle the Trump years in the minority and as part of the, you know, the opposition?

[14:05:04]

What did you learn four years ago and frankly, for the past eight years that will make you approach him and his presidency differently?

SCHIFF: Well, I would say this. The problems that catapult him back into office with the economy, and frankly, many of these problems in the economy go back years, even decades. The fact that as these decades have progressed, people have been working harder and harder and still finding it more and more difficult to get by. Addressing that central economic challenge the country faces has to be at the top of our agenda. These problems simply can't wait four years. It's not like we can say we'll just wait until Trump's out of office.

So we have to try to find ways to work together to attack these structural problem --

BASH: So you can focus on those issues and, you know, investigations and questions about his conduct and so forth that you were very focused on and others were as well, that will be secondary?

SCHIFF: Well, I -- look, I think we hope for the best. We keep a focus on trying to get positive, affirmative things done for the country. But a lot will depend on how he chooses to govern. If he violates the law, if he violates the Constitution, if he abuses his office, we will vigorously push back, fight back, stand up to him, as we had to do during his first-term in office.

But my priority -- my priority is to try to get things done for my California constituents, realizing, though they also expect me to stand up to him when he attacks the Constitution or their freedom.

BASH: President Biden is currently deliberating over whether to issue any preemptive pardons. You well know that you are in the political crosshairs of Donald Trump. Do you want any kind of preemptive pardon from Joe Biden?

SCHIFF: I've been very public about my point of view, which is that it would be the wrong precedent to set. I don't want to see each president hereafter on their way out the door giving a broad category of pardons to members of their administration --

BASH: Well, maybe not broad. What if it's sort of tailored for people like you? If he came to you and said, Senator, do you want one? What would you say?

SCHIFF: Well, and here I'm just speaking for myself. Those of us that were on the January 6th Committee who, yes, put in the crosshairs, we're all enormously proud of the work that we did. We stand by it. We feel we have the protection of the speech and debate clause. So I -- my own feeling is, let's just avoid this kind of broad precedent.

BASH: So you would say no?

SCHIFF: Well, I'm urging that he not go down that road. Now, I realize that whether he sets that precedent or not, Donald Trump may very well issue blanket pardons on his way out the door. So it may be for naught that is trying to avoid that precedent. But I wouldn't want to be the first to set it. I do understand. And we're back in this conundrum again where a Democratic president can do things for a very good reason, a laudable reason, a legitimate reason in this case, that people are being threatened improperly by an incoming president. But then that precedent can be abused. And that's the same conundrum we have faced during these entire Trump years and we're facing again.

BASH: Senator, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

SCHIFF: Thank you.

BASH: Jake, back to you.

TAPPER: Thanks, Dana. And we are standing by for the expected remarks by Vice President Kamala Harris on the Hill.

Plus, we're going to speak with two of the officers who risked their lives defending the Capitol as it was under attack four years ago. We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:10:25]

TAPPER: We are expecting remarks from Vice President Kamala Harris before she leaves Capitol Hill. She obviously spent her day overseeing the certification by the U.S. congress of the 2024 presidential election results that she lost. This as President Elect, Trump and Republicans are gearing up for his return to the White House in a few days and making plans to try to pass his aggressive MAGA agenda.

But let us take a moment there to reflect on what we just heard from new Senator Adam Schiff. Dana was asking him if he wanted a preemptive pardon. And he basically was -- well, translate for us what he said.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: He basically said no, that he didn't think that he needed it because of the speech and debate clause.

TAPPER: And just to be clear, this is about whether, you know, this is about his participation in the January 6th Committee hearing. There's absolutely nothing illegal he did. And yet Donald Trump has said that everybody who is a member of the Committee should -- be prosecuted.

GANGEL: So two things I thought were notable. One was you could sort of read between the lines of the way he said it. He didn't come out and say we did nothing wrong. Absolutely not. You know, we don't need a preemptive pardon.

He also used the word conundrum. For several weeks now, we've been hearing reporting that President Biden and his aides have been thinking about a preemptive pardon for some of the members of the January 6th Committee and others.

[14:15:05]

What I heard today was someone who is leaving the door open for that to happen.

TAPPER: Yeah. I mean, I've heard Republicans accusing the January Sixth Committee of being partisan, even though there were two Republicans on it, Adam Kinzinger, who's up in New York, and Liz Cheney. Even if you accepted that accusation on its face, which many people would not, the idea that a partisan hearing or a partisan Committee would be illegal that would be a road I would think the Jim Jordan's of the world would not want to travel down.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There are a lot of roads that we thought, though, people would not want to travel down, that they have traveled down in the Trump age. So --

COLLINS: At warp speed.

KING: Yeah. One of the lessons of the Trump age has been that, you know, when you think something now, they wouldn't do that. Pause. Hit the pause button there. You're absolutely right. They're part of a legally constructed Committee in the United States Congress with constitutional authority to do what they did.

I would say the bigger point to me is so Donald Trump doesn't like the members of the Committee, mostly Democrats, and to a very prominent, very courageous Republicans who essentially blew up their political careers to be part of that Committee, knowing what Trump would do to them.

Pick up the report, go to the index, look at the people who testified, the witnesses to the Committee. They were all people who worked for Donald Trump --

TAPPER: Or yeah, except for a couple of the insurrectionists themselves --

KING: (Inaudible) right.

TAPPER: They were all, at one point, Trump supporters.

KING: Right. And so it's -- it is a waste of time, it's a waste of energy. There is no -- I'm not a lawyer, but all the lawyers I've spoken to say there's just no legal path for prosecuting these people. But that doesn't mean that it won't happen or there won't be pressure for it to happen from Donald Trump.

But it does present, the conundrum is a great word, because it presents a -- it's one of the many challenges of the Democrats, Joe Biden for the next two weeks as he leaves, and then the Democrats after Donald Trump takes his hands off that Bible and moves back into the White House is how do we handle these things? Is it all personal about Trump? Is it about policy? Who is our leader? On which issues? When do we speak up? How do we do it?

There's a -- we're just beginning that whole new chapter of how the Democrats handle this brave new and upside down world.

COLLINS: Well, and that's why we saw such a fight over House leadership for Democrats on certain Committees over -- a lot of it was generational, who they thought should be on certain Committees like House Oversight and whatnot, because there are Democrats who thought that they should handle this differently than how they went after Trump in round one.

What does that look like in round two? It's not responding to every Truth Social post or executive order or statement that he makes. It's following what's more serious. And I think when we talk to Democrats, people like Dan Goldman, who I interviewed a few weeks ago, the question is how do you walk that line and that balance and what does that look like when he's in office this time around?

TAPPER: It's also going to be a challenge for House Republicans, especially some House Republicans from congressional districts that in the past have been won by Joe Biden. Here we have a Congressman Mike Lawler of New York. Speak of the devil.

REP. MICHAEL LAWLER (R-NY): I'm on cue.

TAPPER: Good. Good to see you, sir. By the way, I don't even know the answer to this question. Did Harris win your congressional district or did Trump?

LAWLER: She did. Kamala Harris won my district by less than half a point, about 2,000 votes. But you know, four years ago, Joe Biden won it by 10 points. So it was a pretty dramatic shift over the last four years, obviously, but it's one of only three Republican held House seats that Kamala Harris won. So myself, Don Bacon and Brian Fitzpatrick are the only members of the majority in seats that Kamala Harris won.

TAPPER: Fitzpatrick from the right outside the great city of Philadelphia. Let me ask you, Congressman, we were just talking about this whole debate about whether or not President Biden should give -- and he and his aides -- Biden and his aides are deciding whether or not to give a preemptive pardon to, for instance, members of the January Six Committee, Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger, etcetera, because Donald Trump, President Elect Trump is out there saying they should be prosecuted. What is your take on that specific debate?

LAWLER: Look, I think obviously the American people are not interested in going backwards. And I think for us to waste time looking backwards with all that we have to do in this 119th Congress really would be a distraction from the task at hand. You know, I think a pardon seems to be a little bit unnecessary. But to me, at the end of the day, the focus has to be on the American people and the future.

I've been very clear. I thought what happened on January six was wrong. It never should have happened. I'm glad that today's events were rather ho hum and went very smoothly. You know, we didn't have objections from anyone.

[14:20:02]

And in prior elections, not just 2020. But when Donald Trump won the first time, we saw objections to certification by the Democrats. So this has been unhelpful and unnecessary trend in our politics that thankfully did not happen today.

But I think everybody needs to focus on the future. Rehashing and relitigating what happened four years ago were going after members of Congress or former members of Congress, I don't think is helpful to anyone and certainly not to the American people.

TAPPER: Let's look forward because President Elect Trump is obviously talking about rolling all of his day one priorities, which would be extending the Trump tax cuts, energy reform and securing the border into one big reconciliation package. Speaker Johnson says he thinks that would be easier to pass. Do you agree? Do you have any issues about what is in that legislation as of now? What are your views?

LAWLER: I do agree that it will be easier to pass one bill than multiple bills. I think when you start getting into multiple bills, it makes it harder to keep everybody unified. You know, there's members that are going to be very, very focused on the border. There's going to be other members that are very focused on taxes, you know, keeping everybody together and, you know, getting everybody to acknowledge that they may not love everything that's in the bill, but everybody's got to vote to get, you know, the major things done.

So I think obviously the border package is going to be critical. Energy production here in America, increasing domestic energy production as well as obviously the tax bill. I've been very clear. We need to lift the cap on salt. That is a top priority for me. The state and local tax deduction add as we work through the tax portion of the bill. And so, you know, we're going to be going down to meet with President Trump this coming weekend to discuss that. And that's something that I am obviously very focused on.

TAPPER: So simple, yes and no. Speed round. Should President Biden preemptively pardon members of the January six Committee?

LAWLER: No.

TAPPER: Should Donald Trump pardon people who attack the Capitol on January 6, 2021?

LAWLER: No.

TAPPER: Look at that. Oh my God. A politician with one word answers. Thank you so much for joining us. Congratulations on the 119th Congress. Looking forward to having you on.

LAWLER: Thank you. Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Jake, thanks. On this January 6th, there's a big question mark hanging over the criminal cases against the Capitol riot rioters. I want to bring in CNN Chief Legal Affairs Correspondent Paula Reid. Where do those cases stand right now?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, as you know, January 6th prompted the largest prosecution the Justice Department has ever undertaken, nearly 1,600 rioters were charged. Nearly 1,300 have been convicted, and there are still about 300 cases pending. But Trump's return to power has really left in question what happens going forward for these cases because he has signaled that he intends to pardon anyone who participated in January 6th.

Now, speaking with my sources, I am told that they want to do something quick and it should be pretty broad. Now, the former President has signaled that he wants to maybe make some exceptions for especially violent offenders, but it's unclear, according to my sources, how they would do that, because even if they went by individual charges, many of these rioters were, for example, charged with assault, but for a broad array of conduct. You also had the leaders of far right groups who were convicted but for directing violence, not directly participating it.

But I am told that there will be clemency. It will not be any sort of traditional individual application process like you usually see with these matters. And it will happen likely on the first day. And of course, Anderson, one person who will not need clemency is Trump himself. His January six case has been dismissed by the special counsel because Trump made it clear that he was going to dismiss it once he got into office.

COOPER: Right. Paula Reid, thanks very much. Joining us now, two men who defended the Capitol against pro Trump attackers four years ago, former Capitol Police officer Harry Dunn and former Capitol Police Sergeant Aquilino Gonell. Appreciate both of you being with us on this day. Mr. Dunn, you risked your life defending the Capitol on this day four years ago. How are you feeling watching Congress certify his comeback?

HARRY DUNN, FORMER U.S. CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER : Sure. Thank you for having me. Not just me, but so many of the other police officers from the U.S. capitol and the Metropolitan Police, so many that you just showed in your footage. They were there on January 6, 2021. And it's just kind of ironic. I happen to think about what Manu said earlier about John Thune wanting to move on and Mike Lawler who just said he wants to move on from January 6th.

You know what? We would love nothing more than to move on from debt. Donald Trump, however, appears not to want to move on. He brings it up every single time he gets the opportunity. He talks about it.

[14:25:00]

And every time he talks about it and lies about it, we will be front and center pushing back against those lies. But, yeah, I would love to move on from January 6th, but that doesn't happen without accountability and Donald Trump has seemed to escape that up to this point.

COOPER: Officer Gonell, can you tell us it's 2:24 p.m. do you remember what you were doing around this time four years ago?

AQUILINO GONELL, FORMER U.S. CAPITOL POLICE SERGEANT: I was fighting for my life, being crushed inside the tunnel. It's outrageous that the person who claims that is the law and order president, the most supporter of all, is the one that is about to pardon those people who are attacking the police officer of the Capitol. The irony is that the same people that were defending the Capitol against his mob are some of the ones that are going to be protecting him on January 20th when he gets worn in again.

So at the end of the day he is going to get his chance to go to the Capitol under different circumstances as compared to what he wanted to do on January 6th is outrageous because these people were violent against officers like myself where we were willing to sacrifice our lives. And that's a desecration to the all service.

COOPER: Sergeant, Gonell, you wrote an op ed in the New York Times. You said, it's been devastating to me to hear Donald Trump repeat his promise to pardon insurrectionist. Pardoning them would be an outrageous mistake. It could also put me in danger. If there are quick and blanket pardons or even selective pardons with a few people not pardoned. Expand on what you wrote.

GONELL: I mean, some of these people, they claim to be supportive of the police and yet they are the same one who put our lives at risk on January 6th. And these are the same ones that saying you all let those people in even though they're the one that overwhelmed our defense -- officers.

It doesn't give me any solace that these people have been dictated just like the former President. You know, I don't even know what to call them right now. Former President, fellow president, President Elect. So what is it? I mean, it's so frustrating to hear him and his ally defending these people.

At the end of the day, look, our families, we did our jobs. The officers did our job. We were simply doing our job. When we fulfill it, what comes after? I don't think I need a -- a pardon preemptive pattern like the congressman was saying, we were doing our job and we're fulfilling our oath. And if Donald Trump has an issue with that or his allies, then they are not the so called party of law and order like they proclaim.

COOPER: Harry Dunn, as you know, 150 officers were injured that day. Officer Brian Sicknick died, stroke, multiple strokes. The following day, two other officers, Jeffrey Smith, the Metropolitan Police, killed himself the days following, as did Officer Howard Liebengood from the Capitol Police. Do you worry that history will erase what happened four years ago?

DUNN: They're going to try. But as you see, there are a lot of people that are willing to stand up and fight for what is right. You talk about the Adam Kinzinger's and the Liz Cheney's of the world and the officers, myself, Sergeant Gonell, Danny Hodges, Michael Fanone, that have constantly -- for four years like -- this is everybody -- this is -- this has been four years in the making. And we've been fighting this fight since January 7, 2021. This isn't anything new and we're not going away.

So as long as they're out there pushing lies about it, then we're going to be out pushing back against it. We were real -- and I got to acknowledge, like you just said, Brian Sicknick, I talked to his mother this morning and she's heartbroken. Like this wasn't just some political, fiasco that got out of hand.

People's -- real people's lives were affected. Real people's lives -- even the people that attacked the Capitol, people that went to jail, people that lost family members, lost their finance, people's -- real life people were affected because of this. And it just doesn't go away just because the president, Donald Trump, got elected again.

COOPER: Former Capitol Police officer Harry Dunn. Sorry, go ahead, sergeant.

GONELL: One of the things -- those are the fine names that people need to remember. Not the insurrectionists, not the people who are attacking the police officer. And Donald Trump and his allies are going to try to do their darn best to make everybody else forget. But people's lives were ruined.

People's lives were -- livelihood were taken away. People lost their lives and those of what they could never wash that away. We sometimes we're being retaliated to the point that even some of the benefits that we are entitled to apply for have been denied.