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CNN Saturday Morning Table for Five. Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency Investigations into Government Agencies Like USAID Draw Controversy; Department of Government Efficiency Employee's Recent Racist Online Social Media Posts Uncovered; President Trump States U.S. Will Take Over and Rebuild Gaza Strip During Press Conference; Some See Democrats Attempts at Resisting Second Trump Administration as Faltering; Democratic Senator John Fetterman Says Democrats May Not be Able to Win Back White Male Voters; Some Capitol Rioters Pardoned by Donald Trump Unrepentant in Media Interviews; President Trump to be First Sitting President to Attend Super Bowl. Aired 10-11a ET

Aired February 08, 2025 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

[10:00:41]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR, INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY: This morning, a wrecking ball, a dismantling, call it whatever you want, but the X- man's gutting of the government is calling up fears of a dangerous ending.

Plus, how do you solve decades of bloodshed?

DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: The Riviera of the Middle East.

PHILLIP: Think timeshares. Is the president's Gaza dream a deployment of the madman theory?

Also, from prison to politics.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to take a serious look at running for office.

PHILLIP: How the freed felons are updating their resumes.

And will Democrats ever win back white men?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not sure if that's possible, to be honest.

PHILLIP: The new challenge facing the resistance -- bro culture.

Here in studio, John Avlon, Melik Abdul, Alyssa Farah Griffin, and Jay Michaelson. It's the weekend. Join the conversation at a "TABLE FOR FIVE".

(END VIDEO TAPE) PHILLIP: Good morning to you. I'm Abby Phillip in New York. Let's get right to what America is talking about, the demolition derby. In just three weeks, the federal government is being bulldozed by President Trump and his project foreman, Elon Musk. We shouldn't be surprised, though. It is what Trump promised to do. But what is stunning is the way in which it's being done.

First, they're offering buyouts and threatening jobs with the stroke of an email, and no succession plan, by the way. Second, the world's richest man is essentially invading agencies with a mysterious team of young tech guys who he doesn't want you to know about, and they're accessing payment systems that house sensitive data, the sensitive data of Americans.

Third, the Trump administration is completely gutting agencies like USAID, which Republicans have historically praised.

And if there is any question who the ringleader is, this "Time" magazine leaves nothing to chance. Elon Musk is essentially doing all of this without any oversight, besides himself, of course.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president was already asked and answered this question this week, and he said if Elon Musk comes across a conflict of interest with the contracts and the funding that DOGE is overseeing, then Elon will excuse himself from those contracts. And he has, again, abided by all applicable laws.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Alyssa, make it make sense. I don't get it. How is Elon Musk, who has, by the way, he is the largest recipient of government contracts. He has business before the government. He has competitors who have business before the government. How is he supposed to police himself?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Listen, this just goes to the broader theory that Donald Trump has if he is going to stretch the interpretation of the power of the executive branch. He's been president before. He did not love some of the constraints that were in place in the first term. Bringing in an outsider billionaire who can kind of be his doer and fixer, so he doesn't necessarily have to deal with some of the details, it's kind of vintage Trump. He gets to work on the things and talk about the things he cares about, but then pass off some of these massive decisions to Elon.

There's, of course, conflicts of interest. And one of the things I'm worried about, because I do care about some of these programs, seeing the letters taken off of USAID, that's, for those of us who have worked on projects there, it's pretty jarring. We need an accounting from the White House of what is actually being cut and why. Americans broadly support shrinking the size of government. They are right that there is too much bureaucracy. There are federal workers we can get rid of. But tell us why we are getting rid of things, why we don't need it anymore, and what it's being replaced with, if anything.

PHILLIP: The other part of this that's striking to me and about the Elon of it all, it seems to me like we are already in a kind of post- Trump era where Trump is almost incidental to this. The wheels are turning -- he's there, but the wheels are turning kind of without him. He's not really making these day-to-day decisions. He's handed them off to someone else. Project 2025 is basically being implemented by the guy who wrote it. Trump just happens to be there, but he he's not like required for any of these things to happen. And I think that's actually what's different about this compared to the first time around.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I mean, I'm old enough to remember when they said that they had nothing to do with Project 2025. And of course, now they're implementing it, and that's just a given.

I've got to think that every time that Elon Musk is shown behind the Resolute Desk, that doesn't appeal to Trump's ego, but he certainly likes to delegate work.

[10:05:03]

The problem, of course, is like the Constitution. All my friends who said they were constitutional conservatives, I'd like to see them stand up for the Constitution when it comes to actually the power of the purse springs and actually, you know, saying that you need to go through Congress. If you want to begin with waste, fraud, and abuse, the GAO did a report saying there was up to $500 billion a year in annual waste, fraud, and abuse. But they're not using that. They seem to be going after projects that would offend people who maybe they don't want to offend. Why focus on USAID, which Marco Rubio praised as a senator and many Republicans have? Why, for example, did the DOJ prioritize taking down an operation focused on Russian oligarchs and sanctions in the wake of Ukraine invasion? These are choices that are being made that have nothing to do with the larger project. They seem to be following a lot of pet projects.

PHILLIP: And they don't have anything to do with dollars and cents, lets be honest. We're not getting to the numbers that Elon needs to get to --

JAY MICHAELSON, VISITING PROFESSOR, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL: I'd love to go a little deeper than that, actually. I don't actually think that this is a kind of deliberate conspiracy. It does seem like kind of chaos to me. But are you suggesting, I mean, that USAID, obviously, this favors China and Russia. When we pull back, they're going to step in. That's why conservatives like USAID, because this is about.

AVLON: That's why I like it.

MICHAELSON: Right. So, I mean, are you are you claiming to me this was just America first and this is an easy place to start cutting funds.

AVLON: Wouldn't you start with where the report has already been done? Why would you start with USAID, given that its budget's $43 billion?

PHILLIP: No, because you have to, you know, it's all about signaling ideological priorities.

GRIFFIN: Yes, foreign aid is not popular --

PHILLIP: It's foreign aid, it's DEI. It's all of that stuff.

MELIK ABDUL, MEMBER BLACK AMERICANS FOR TRUMP COALITION: This is something that, this is something at the end of the day that Donald Trump campaigned on. Now, I have my criticisms of Elon Musk. I have my criticisms in the manner in which, and we talked about the manner in which they're moving forward. But I think overall, when you consider that Elon Musk has this special government status where I think he can serve only now 130 days, which is actually a much, much smaller period than what we were looking at, I think they were saying June of next year, when the initial creation of DOGE, I think now that Elon Musk, after this 130 or so days, I think that Elon Musk may very well be gone from this position at DOGE.

And I think what he's doing is throwing everything -- some things are going to be challenged in court, some things are going to be overturned for sure, but they're literally throwing everything at the wall. But what I think everybody can agree on, until we start looking at the Pentagon's budget, we're probably not going to do anything --

AVLON: But you just kind of pointed out the underlying irony. As Abby said, one of the largest contractors for the defense budget is actually Elon Musk himself. But we're not starting there. We're starting with, you know, foreign aid programs.

ABDUL: The easy.

AVLON: The things that also create strategic opportunities for Russia and China.

PHILLIP: I want to make sure we address this because it's so extraordinary. I think it's an insane way that this week capped off. There is a Treasury employee who is a DOGE person, this 25-year-old who as recently as just a few weeks ago, sent a bunch of racist tweets, messages on X espousing eugenics, among other things, saying that it should be OK to hate Indians, things like that. This person allegedly is now being let back into the government because we don't like cancel culture. We want to forgive and forget.

MICHAELSON: You know what, I maybe have a contrarian view on this. I mean, I think this is about cementing the vibe shift, and it's not something that I'm in favor of. But I do think that there's, I mean, the fact that this, this individual had anti-Indian racism, and J.D. Vance has an Indian American wife gives him a certain position where he gets to kind of say the vibe shift has happened, cancel culture is over. You can kind of say what you want, and is now going after people who went after him.

PHILLIP: Yes, you know what's crazy? J.D. Vance, Vice President J.D. Vance, described this person who he is advocating for who should be back in the government, as a racist troll. He described him as a racist troll.

GRIFFIN: Well, I also --

PHILLIP: I'm sorry to have forced you to explain this, but what is happening here, Alyssa?

GRIFFIN: J.D. Vance is not Mike Pence. And what I mean by that is there were certain guardrails and certain sort of a dignity of the office that I believe Pence, when I worked for him, tried to keep in place. This is not someone he would have advocated to have in the federal government. J.D. Vance is absolutely trying to implement this vibe shift. Cancel culture is not a thing anymore. Everyone gets a second chance, which I actually agreed with this statement thinking this is a 55-year-old that said something 20 years ago, right? No, no, this just happened. He did not apologize either.

AVLON: But it's against the backdrop of no background checks either. So there's also a young man working on this who actually said allegedly stole sort of secrets from a cybersecurity agency. So that seems like a problem, right?

PHILLIP: Yes, I mean, to your to your point, Alyssa, here's the tweet from J.D. Vance. "I obviously disagree with some of Elez's posts, but I don't think stupid social media activity should ruin a kid's life." This guy is 25.

AVLON: Well, it's funny.

PHILLIP: I was on my third job when I was 25.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIP: What is going on?

MICHAELSON: Well, either he's a kid, in which case he should probably get a second chance. Or he's a kid and he probably shouldn't be running the demolition of the government, right?

[10:10:03]

MICHAELSON: It feels like there should be one or the other. If you're old enough to take a hammer to the government, you probably don't get a second chance.

ABDUL: And you know what I'll -- and what I'll say to my, if people don't want to get into cancel culture and bring the guy back, what I would like for my Republicans, my conservatives to do is be consistent when it comes to members of our own party who may disagree with certain aspects of things that Donald Trump and other people are doing. Just be a little consistent.

GRIFFIN: And what's wild, just really quickly, is Donald Trump did make these gains with black and brown men. But then when you bring people in who are saying just overtly racist things, it undermines this new coalition that he himself has built.

PHILLIP: And it also, I think --

MICHAELSON: The Arab Americans for Trump organization had to rename itself Arab Americans for Peace because they're no longer for Trump after the Gaza --

AVLON: Who could have seen that coming?

PHILLIP: When you say if you attend a DEI seminar, you're out of the government. But if you send racist messages, you're in the government. I think that that is insulting to the intelligence of the American people to suggest that's not what it looks like.

Everyone, stick around. Coming up next, President Trump suggesting this week that he's got the answer to the Middle East peace question. Gaza could become an American resort. So is there any strategy behind all of this?

Plus, Democrats are struggling to find their way in the second Trump era. Are they failing? My panel will debate that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:16:03]

PHILLIP: Welcome back. Many Americans say that they elected Donald Trump because at his core, he's a businessman. And this week, that instinct became an international incident.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: The U.S. will take over the Gaza Strip, and we will do a job with it, too. We'll own it, and be responsible for dismantling all of the dangerous unexploded bombs and other weapons on the site, level the site, and get rid of the destroyed buildings.

We have an opportunity to do something that could be phenomenal. And I don't want to be cute. I don't want to be a wise guy, gut the Riviera of the Middle East, this could be something that could be so -- this could be so magnificent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: The Riviera of the Middle East. Well, after that, his aides tried to soften his makeover dreams. But he is serious. In short, he is proposing that Palestinians be forced from their homes. The U.S. would take over, would build what sounds like hotels, condos, oceanfront shopping, and everyone lives in peace. Oh, and he would also consider sending American boots to carry it out.

Now, this is the same American first president who vowed to stop the endless wars. So I don't know, I mean, is this an example of the madman theory at play? You just don't know what he's going to say next, and keep everybody on their toes?

ABDUL: So I think it's a bit of that. You've seen a response from the right, especially on this notion of the Riviera of the Middle East, or whatever. You've seen a lot of people, conservatives, saying, no, this idea that were going into, you know, the Middle East, Trump is supposed to -- he's not an interventionist in that same way. I think that you're probably going to see more people say no to that. But this overall madman strategy, we've seen that Trump has been able to get some wins, some modest wins when it comes to tariffs and other things like that. So that's part of Donald Trump's negotiating strategy.

PHILLIP: I mean, I want to take that seriously because I see you chuckling, but seriously, I mean, there are a lot of people who say that in the Middle East they understand Trump. They get how he works. They understand how to deal with him. He was able to deal with them on the on the Abraham Accords and get something that actually didn't necessarily put the Palestinian viewpoint front and center, but achieved something nonetheless. Is there any truth to the idea that in this particular region, it might be working?

AVLON: I'd separate these two things out, because the Abraham Accords was an enormous diplomatic success for which the Trump administration deserves a lot of credit. The madman theory is the opposite side of that spectrum. It's not about diplomacy at all. Remember, that term was coined when Henry Kissinger tried to explain Richard Nixon, that if he was seen as erratic and impulsive, he could cow some of Americas allies.

This is, with Trump, this is a little bit trying to put lipstick on a pig. There's impulse control problems that then you're trying to wrap a veneer of strategy around. So don't overthink it. And when it comes to this, I mean, not only is it a contradiction of everything he allegedly campaigned on, and I like to hear conservatives who are republic, not an empire, people saying, hey, wait, that's a little bit much. But also, the Arab Americans for Trump, who now have the world's most predictable buyer's remorse coming down the pike.

But I don't want to attribute a lot of his impulse, his sort of outbursts to strategy. I think that's a mistake.

PHILLIP: Well, he thinks it's a strategy. This is actually really interesting. In October, back last October, he was talking to "The Wall Street Journal" editorial board, and they asked him, would you use military force against a blockade on Taiwan? And Trump said, I wouldn't have to because he, Xi Jinping, respects me and he knows I'm effing crazy.

(LAUGHTER)

MICHAELSON: Yes. So I think the whole -- whether this is a strategy or not, I just, we can't leave out the fact that this really would actually be ethnic cleansing. This counts as genocide under the genocide convention. This is 2 million people. This is a massive, horrifying military operation that would be required.

To me what's most disturbing is not that Trump said this, but that Benjamin Netanyahu has recently said that he's actually on board with it.

[10:20:02]

That, to me, is even more appalling.

PHILLIP: More than his wildest dreams.

MICHAELSON: Morally appalling. And the idea that -- the idea that this could even be discussed, even as a joke, is so appalling and unacceptable that I can't -- I just can't get past -- a lot of us who were very, who were saying that Israel did have a right to defend itself after October 7th, took issue with using the word "genocide" to describe what was happening in Gaza. But I, having been one of those people, will say right now that this is exactly what genocide looks like, kicking 2 million people out of their homes to build a hotel for the Trump Riviera Resort.

ABDUL: And they have to have somewhere to go. That's part of the issue --

PHILLIP: Right, and right now they don't.

ABDUL: -- they don't have anywhere.

GRIFFIN: Listen, there is also, a huge part of this is impulse control with Donald Trump. And then aides are going to try to come up with things they can do in the coming months, weeks, years to try to frame it like it's a success and like this was some sort of a strategic approach.

But the thing is, I'm no Trump fan, but I actually think this completely aside, the Middle East is somewhere he stands to actually do incredible work. I think that his executive order to reinstate the maximum pressure campaign on Iran this week that will actually likely kind of tone down the Middle East and put some of these proxies that have been involved with Hezbollah and Hamas back at bay, as they were in his administration.

He had support with the Jordanians. He has support with the Saudis about putting Iran back in a box. This is a complete distraction that would be an absolute powder keg in the Middle East that would make it more dangerous than it's been in decades. And it's counter to what is actually a good trajectory that he is heading down.

PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, you used to work for Mike Pence. I mean, this idea that the aides are going to kind of back into an explanation for what Trump said, I think we have to take that seriously as well, that they will be working overtime to try to make this sound --

ABDUL: I think that's why you probably haven't had an answer to this particular question about this, what he wants to do in the Gaza Strip. They've been struggling to answer that. Some of the other things are easier to answer, but they can't answer this, because I do believe, to your point, this was more of an impulsive things that that Donald Trump said, and not part of a strategy.

AVLON: The only thing I'll say is it happens to echo rhetoric used by his son-in-law about a redevelopment project he wanted to put in place in Gaza. So, you know, that's a factor, too.

GRIFFIN: But the America first crowd, I mean, this would make George Bush blush in terms of intervention.

PHILLIP: Absolutely. But you're totally right. I mean, Jared described exactly what Trump also described this week. So it didn't come out of nowhere.

Everyone, hang tight. Coming up next, as Democrats struggle to find ways to push back against the Trump administration, a key Democratic senator says that his party has lost white men and isn't sure how Democrats can win them back. My panel will debate.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:27:02]

PHILLIP: Welcome back. Democrats are still trying to get their sea legs in the new Trump era, and it's not clear yet if they know how to stand.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. AYANNA PRESSLEY, (D-MA): To our Republican colleagues, if you do not see the light, we will bring the fire. Resist!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are going to be in your face. We are going to be on your --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have days to stop the destruction of our democracy. We have work to do.

SEN. RON WYDEN, (D-OR): Tell Elon Musk to take his hands off your money.

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY, (D-CT): We don't Pledge allegiance to the creepy 22-year-olds working for Elon Musk. We pledge allegiance to the United States of America.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And god -- shut down the city. We are at war.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER, (D-NY) SENATE MINORITY LEADER: We will win! We will win! We will win! We won't rest! We won't rest!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Theres a lot going on there. While that earned some mockery from both sides of the aisle, there was a more existential moment brought to you by Senator John Fetterman this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do Democrats win back white men like yourself?

SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN, (D-PA): I don't know, and truthfully, I'm not sure, I'm not sure if that's possible, to be honest. I think that's been seriously eroding for a while. And in some cases, in the conversations I've had, a lot of people, they don't even want to say it publicly, but they just feel like the other side seems like it's like men, well, that men is the problem. Men are to blame. Or their masculinity is toxic. Or unless you're able to conform to our very strict kinds of definition of what we think is appropriate, well, then, hey, I'm just, I'm going to find an alternative. And they've done that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Now, worth noting that John Fetterman has been doing some very interesting things. He's been saying nice things about Trump. He's been going to visit Trump. He's been voting for Trump's nominees. And he's been raising a lot of questions about whether he really is that much on the left anymore. And that might be a sign of the times and a sign of the problems that the Democratic Party has going forward.

AVLON: I don't think it's calculated. I think it's authentic on the part of Fetterman. And I think in this case, he's actually naming something that's an issue that Democrats got to deal with. The downside of the liberal identity politics that have come from the left is that you have lost a generation of young white men because they feel, and you could say historically it's ironic or not, prejudged, and therefore you've got a wedge.

And I think Democrats need -- liberalism needs to actually stand for viewing everyone as an individual first again. I think that identity politics have hurt the Democratic Party, and I think they have been divisive. And that's one of the lessons from this election.

GRIFFIN: And I do feel, and I say this as a voting Republican, but I do feel like Democrats this cycle were talking about what they wanted voters to care about, not what voters were repeatedly in polls time and time again telling them that they cared about. So oftentimes it was things like democracy. It's a privilege to be able to go to the voting booth and vote about democracy. When you can't afford your groceries, when you can't afford to buy a home, that's just not top of mind.

[10:30:05]

And I think in this era of the isms and going very far into identity politics, which have a place and need to be part of our cultural and political discourse, they've left behind the working class. If you are in a mill in the middle of the country, you're not really thinking about DEI or which label of a group that you're going to be in. You're thinking about how you're going to pay your bills.

PHILLIP: And I agree with you. But as I've said before, I think that is true. I actually agree with you. But the Republicans are the ones talking now --

GRIFFIN: Well, that's a whole different story.

AVLON: That's true.

PHILLIP: Compared to anyone. I mean, he they are talking about it.

MICHAELSON: I mean, there's more than just a couple of players here. It's not just that the Democrats did some stuff and young white men rebelled. There's also a pretty intense manosphere amplified by a lot of hard rightwing media that is amplifying this message of resentment. So to say that it's, well, the Democrats went a little too far, I would agree, John, in general, with what John just said. But I also, there are a lot of other players who are amping this up, right? Would this resentment be there if it weren't for people cynically exploiting it?

And I do think the supercut we just saw of the Democrats acting a little bit ridiculous, there have been some really eloquent ways in which Democrats have spoken. I think Jamie Raskin is one who has actually been really outspoken. But here we saw a --

PHILLIP: It's a mixed bag.

MICHAELSON: It's very mixed. And they did the same thing that Alyssa just talked about, right? There was a lot of like attack on democracy. That's kind of abstract. We only have two weeks to save democracy. That also, that plays to the base. I have a lot of friends in the base who are very worried about democracy, and probably for good reason. But I think they do need to focus on real issues, right? The price of eggs is way up, right? Donald Trump has done absolutely nothing to curb the issues that he really won on, which were kitchen table issues. And Democrats have a compelling case that they can make.

ABDUL: And I will say, congregating outside of federal agencies, this is a strategy that's just not going to work for Democrats.

To your point about John Fetterman, I've had my criticisms of John Fetterman, but I think what were probably seeing is a political evolution of John Fetterman, because he may be stepping into that Joe Manchin maverick role, because he's not up for reelection until 2029.

PHILLIP: And you have to acknowledge, John, this is not how he ran for that office.

AVLON: No.

PHILLIP: I mean, I'm not saying what is authentic and what's not. I'm just saying where he is now is not where he was when he ran for Senate.

AVLON: Certainly in the primary. But he and Tim Ryan, who was running the same cycle against J.D. Vance, who did not win, were both presenting a new vision of Democratic populism that was not necessarily left. They were thinking not in a left-right axis, really. It was more about authenticity, tough on China, focusing on rebuilding the middle class workers who are getting screwed over by China. So they have not actually, there are points of overlap that I think are authentic to him.

MICHAELSON: And he has he has the credibility to say it's not left or right. It's up and down, right.

AVLON: Yes, exactly.

MICHAELSON: I mean, this is an administration that is rewarding the top 0.1 percent.

AVLON: That's right.

MICHAELSON: And if they cut the corporate tax rate to 15 percent and Democrats can't take advantage of them, then something really is wrong with that party.

PHILLIP: All right, everyone, hang tight. Coming up next, pardoned January 6th rioters say that they are unrepentant and that the future is theirs. We're going to discuss what that future could actually look like next.

But first, the final episode of CNN's original series, "Kobe, The Making of a Legend," airs tonight at 9:00 p.m. eastern time. It charts the last year of his career and his efforts to expand the game. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JALEN BRUNSON, NBA ALL-STAR: Once I saw his focus on wanting women's basketball to grow, they wanted his mentorship, and he was more than willing.

KOBE BRYANT, FORMER NBA PLAYER: I think there were a couple of players that could play in the NBA right now, honestly. I mean, there's a lot of players that have a lot of skill that can do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:38:04]

PHILLIP: Believe it or not, it has only been three weeks since they received a get-out-of-jail-free card from the new president, but now we are starting to hear exactly what the January 6th rioters are planning for their second careers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ENRIQUE TARRIO, FORMER PROUD BOYS LEADER: I think my future is in politics. I think I'm going to take a serious look at running for office at some point in 2026 or 2028, and I believe that there is a path for that, because it is my passion, you know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: That passionate man is Enrique Tarrio. He is the former leader of the Proud Boys who was given 22 years behind bars for seditious conspiracy until, of course, he received a pardon. Others, like the guy who sat behind Nancy Pelosi's desk, isn't thinking about his LinkedIn page, but rather his legacy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD BARNETT, CAPITOL RIOTER: I hope we were the first line that drove us to the to the to the goal. And I believe in my heart we were.

I have no regrets.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: For, what, the third or fourth time in this hour, what is going on? What is going on that a man, Enrique Tarrio, part of what he was accused of doing is basically organizing an armed insurrection against the government. I mean --

ABDUL: You got to keep, you've got to keep your name in the news, because that's literally. And I should have looked it up to see where he lives, because at the end of the day, voters have to actually vote for him. And I just can't imagine, depending on where he lives --

PHILLIP: There are lots of places in this country where --

GRIFFIN: There are some districts in Florida which are not open seats that he could get elected. He could get elected --

PHILLIP: He does live in Florida.

GRIFFIN: Marjorie Taylor Greene --

AVLON: Everything, everything were seeing is really the cancer of hyper-partisanship and polarization, where you can play to the base even if you're like a former militia leader who's attacked the capitol. And that can be a net positive in electoral terms.

This is what happens, and this is what we can't screw around with sort of being too cute about this stuff. We -- President Trump's pardoning of people who attacked the capitol, who attacked police officers, militia leaders who planned to violently try to overturn an election, has legitimized political violence, and the downstream effects will be felt for a long time. If there's not accountability, it's encouragement. And that's what we're seeing.

(CROSS TALK)

PHILLIP: Jay, I want to show real quick, because just to your point, it's all those things that you said, and in addition to this, these people that I'm going to show you on the screen have all received pardons, and then subsequently been arrested for other crimes, some of them allegedly committed before January 6th. But these are, in some cases, violent people, dangerous people, people who are just not good people.

MICHAELSON: I agree, and I actually, if Tarrio wants to enter politics, I actually perversely think that's a step forward, because that means he's going to have to talk to people outside of his bubble, right? Even if he's in a deep, deep red, hardcore polarized district, he is going to have an opponent.

And John, I think the horse has left the barn in terms of legitimacy. And the reality is it has not worked to kind of take the most extreme fringe and say, we're not going to talk to you. We're going to pretend that you don't exist. We're going to put you in a box, because they're out of the box. They're in the White House. And if someone like Enrique Tarrio is going to enter a civil kind of, a civic conversation, I actually think that is going to give us a more, a better opportunity to kind of really attack these toxic beliefs than just pretending that we can hide them away.

GRIFFIN: But I'm just not sure I have the confidence. --

PHILLIP: I'm not sure that's --

GRIFFIN: I'm not sure I have the confidence that the system or the civil discourse would protect against people who are potentially dangerous from getting into office, because we live in this media environment, this democratized media environment, where he doesn't need CNN sign off, he doesn't need fact-checking, he doesn't need to operate within certain constraints. He can get elected by appearing purely on conservative rightwing media if he's in a district --

(CROSS TALK)

MICHAELSON: And then what, though?

GRIFFIN: And then into Congress and have power and voting.

PHILLIP: There are plenty of district, you know this, plenty of districts in this country where someone who is running for office will not ever see a primary opponent who ideologically is on the other side of them. I just think that we are past the point where we can always count on the electoral system to correct --

MICHAELSON: I don't have any --

PHILLIP: Because some of those people are in Congress right now because they were running --

AVLON: We do have solutions.

GRIFFIN: But I also think it is worth considering that there is a portion of this country on the extreme end of the right that actually does think January 6th was legitimate. It was what should have happened because they think the election was stolen. They think it was right that these people were pardoned, and therefore they're not seeing him as a seditious conspiracy theorist and somebody who should have remained in jail. And that's where it gets scary, because it's not this table voting if he runs in a rightwing district.

PHILLIP: Yes.

All right, everyone, stay with me. Coming up, President Trump will be the first sitting president to attend the Super Bowl this weekend, even while the NFL's leader defends diversity in the face of anti-DEI pushes. We'll discuss that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:47:32]

PHILLIP: Welcome back. For nearly a decade, Donald Trump has successfully villainized American institutions and traditions. But one blitz that fell flat was his push to boycott the NFL over the National Anthem protests. The league only got more popular since then, and tomorrow he'll attend its biggest game. Now this is happening despite Trump's efforts to make diversity less trendy in the workplace, something that the league isn't declaring dead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROGER GOODELL, NFL COMMISSIONER: I believe that our diversity efforts have led to making the NFL better. We think we're better when we get different perspectives, people with different backgrounds, whether they're women or men or people of color. We make ourselves stronger and we make ourselves better when we have that. And it's something that I think will have a tremendous impact on this league for many, many years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: To his credit, he's doing what a lot of other CEOs and executives are not willing to do, basically to Donald Trump's face.

MICHAELSON: Yes. You wish Target would have said that. I mean, it's interesting moment when Roger Goodell is like the force -- the voice of an articulate defense of what DEI initiatives actually are, as opposed to this caricature that's been sort of painted by the hard right. And yes, I'm still sort of amazed that it's the NFL.

PHILLIP: It's because it's a league that has a lot of black and brown players. I mean, it's just the reality of the dollars and cents of the NFL.

ABDUL: And I think what you've seen since 2020, you saw a lot of companies kind of reneging, pulling back some of their DEI initiatives. Some places, for instance, like a Costco -- and there are different levels of DEI in all of these companies.

PHILLIP: I was just going to clarify. Costco is not pulling back on DEI, right?

ABDUL: Yes. I'm sorry, clarification. Costco is not pulling back. But there are different levels of what that means, because even at a place like Costco, I was looking, I think about 70 percent of their executives, I think they're white. You look at some of the numbers at these other places, even these DEI, what are they called, the chief diversity officers, I think about 70 percent of the chief diversity officers are white.

PHILLIP: That's partly because DEI is not just about black people, despite what conservatives would have you believe. It also involves women, people who have disabilities, people who have other, all kinds of kinds of other characteristics.

ABDUL: Not just about white.

PHILLIP: That make them less, less likely to be given a fair shot in business.

But I just want to remind us, Donald Trump's relationship with the NFL. This is the moment that I will never forget from Donald Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[10:50:04]

DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: Wouldn't you love to see one of these NFL owners when somebody disrespects our flag to say, get that son of a -- off the field right now? Out. He's fired.

(APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: He's fired!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Because, the reason I'll never forget that is I had never seen I mean, a president has never done that on a stage.

GRIFFIN: Just in general.

PHILLIP: Just in general.

MICHAELSON: Also with that pink tie.

PHILLIP: But the vitriol that was directed at the NFL because of Colin Kaepernick, it really poisoned the well between him and the league for a while.

AVLON: Yes, apparently not. He's going to be the first president going to the Super Bowl. It'll be interesting to see the reaction against -- clearly, the reaction he's hoping for is adoration. We'll see what the reaction is.

MICHAELSON: I'm interested to see how he reacts to Kendrick's halftime show.

(LAUGHTER)

AVLON: Thats actually worth watching.

PHILLIP: I will be interested to see how Kendrick reacts to his presence at the game.

GRIFFIN: What I continue to be struck by with Donald Trump is that he takes positions that are just completely counter to what would traditionally be the Republican position, which again, freedom of speech. Whether you liked Colin Kaepernick's decision to take a knee, I personally did not. But that is absolutely his right to do it and his free expression. But we are so far out of the.

AVLON: It's so clear it's free speech for me, not for thee, that, you know, I mean that's --

ABDUL: But I think this is a huge thing, Donald Trump going to the Super Bowl. This is kind of, you know, Donald Trump going to the MMA fights and all of these type of things.

GRIFFIN: Its the mainstreaming of Donald Trump. It's not, are we normalizing him? Is he getting covered? He is normalized. He is part of American culture.

ABDUL: And he's going to be there when they perform the "Lift Every Voice and Sing," which is the black national anthem.

MICHAELSON: I was really surprised that he's the first, actually. I was really surprised that no president -- I mean, this is a big national occasion, right?

PHILLIP: I mean, just on a nonpolitical note, I think a lot of presidents don't do it because it's a --

GRIFFIN: It's an absolute nightmare to.

PHILLIP: -- security nightmare for people who want to enjoy the Super Bowl.

Everyone Stay with me. The next panel, the panel is going to give us their unpopular opinions, what they are not afraid now to say out loud.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:56:48]

PHILLIP: We're back. And it's my favorite time of the day. It's time for your unpopular opinions. You each have 30 seconds to tell us yours. Jay, you're up.

MICHAELSON: My unpopular opinion is that the Trump administration could end up being good for controlling the global climate crisis. Right now, so far, there have been two camps in D.C.

PHILLIP: Woah, this is --

MICHAELSON: There have been Republicans denying or pretending to deny that climate change is real, and there have been Democrats saying we have to reduce emissions. There are now in power in the administration from Elon on down, people who understand the climate crisis is real, but think there are other ways that we can address it, including geoengineering, including technological ways to adapt to the changing climate, and not pro, necessarily, but given the choice between global climate disaster and Elon Musk saving the planet, I will choose the latter.

PHILLIP: OK, so that's a double whammy. It's both, it's both Elon Musk praise and also --

MICHAELSON: I said it was unpopular.

PHILLIP: -- Trump might save the climate. That's amazing.

GRIFFIN: Thats also a great use of Elon Musk. I highly recommend it. I second that.

Mine feels very trivial now, but can we stop trying to make "Emilia Perez" happen? Listen, I get it. The LGBTQ community, it does feel under attack right now. Representation in art matters. But this is just bad art. And I love some of the actors in it. I love Selena Gomez, I love Zoe Saldana. They're exquisite in other things. But the storyline is plodding. It's not excellent. It's not great. We don't need the big Oscar campaign season. Just let the best films win. And this is not doing it.

PHILLIP: It kind of feels like that film has already --

GRIFFIN: It's kind of tanking itself.

MICHAELSON: All of my other queer friends, we are all anti this film, actually.

GRIFFIN: OK.

PHILLIP: This show has been quite the venue for "Emilia Perez" hate. I'm not going to lie.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIP: It's very interesting.

Go ahead, John.

AVLON: All right, well, I guess I'm taking the pop culture baton here to talk about Oscars. Look, "The Brutalist" one of the, I think, critical favorites for the season is brilliantly filmed. It is brilliantly acted. I also really didn't like it. And the reason is there seems to be a need to make everything about the dark, seedy underbelly of the American dream. And you got to add plenty of heroin addiction and rape to make it real. And it's just not true. It's B.S.

PHILLIP: So you want a more positive image?

AVLON: Look, if you want to do a great story. I happen to dislike brutalist architecture, which is a separate point.

But if you want to do a story about like a holocaust survivor who is a great architect and triumphs against the odds, how about a little bit of a redemptive arc and not try to undercut everything --

MICHAELSON: -- John Avlon as the new head of the NEA.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIP: Wow, wow. Things happen really fast around here.

ABDUL: I'm going to stick with the pop culture. I'm going to talk about the Grammys, but not Kendrick Lamar. Beyonce, congratulations to Beyonce on finally winning Album of the Year. She is the greatest entertainer out of -- this is not up for debate. She is the greatest entertainer of our lifetime. She announced her Cowboy Carter tour. I've seen her nine times already. I do plan on going to this tour. Miss Tina, since she's the one who is always on social media, if you would like to get Beyonce to send me one of them really nice gift boxes, I understand you all don't like Trump. But this Trump supporter likes Beyonce. A little box, and if she got a little ticket in there, I am pulling up, getting up --

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIP: I'm still stuck on, because I was waiting to hear the greatest entertainer of --

ABDUL: Our lifetime.

PHILLIP: Because some people would say --

ABDUL: Thats my unpopular opinion, though.

PHILLIP: Some people would say it's Michael. I think Beyonce might say it's Michael.

ABDUL: She would. I would not.

PHILLIP: OK. All right, well, there you have it. Everyone, thank you very much.

Thank you for watching "TABLE FOR FIVE", but you can catch me every weeknight at 10:00 p.m. eastern time at our news night roundtable. But in the meantime, CNN's coverage continues right now.