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CNN Live Event/Special
New Polls Show President Trump's Favorability Rating on U.S. Economy Faltering Due to Disruptions Caused by His Trade and Tariff Policy; Trump Administration Draws Controversy for Attempting to Deport Protestor without Specifying Crime He Committed that Warrants Deportation; California Democratic Governor Gavin Newsom Criticized for having Former Trump Adviser Steve Bannon on His Podcast; Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth Calls for Increasing U.S. Military's Fitness and Grooming Standards; Increases in Tuition at U.S. Colleges Creating Financial Hardships for Many Students and Their Families. Aired 10-11a ET.
Aired March 15, 2025 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:00:31]
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, it's the phenomenon known as Trump Teflon. But is the president's breaking of the economy his political breaking point?
Plus, protests in the new Trump era get more fiery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm a veteran. You don't give a -- about me.
PHILLIP: And less free-speechy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The hate is real. They hate Jewish Americans. They are anti-American.
PHILLIP: Also, in a party without a leader, are these liberals the right ones for the moment?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM, (D) CALIFORNIA: I also appreciate that you call balls and strikes.
STEVE BANNON, FORMER ADVISER TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: I'm just honored you had me on here.
PHILLIP: And shape up or ship out, the Pentagon chief looks to burn the fat and sharpen the look.
Here in the studio. S.E. Cupp, Melik Abdul, Cari Champion, and Adam Kinzinger. It's the weekend. Join the conversation at the "TABLE FOR FIVE".
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Good morning. I'm Abby Phillip in New York. Let's get right to what America is talking about.
A boom was promised. A bust is threatening. President Trump's trade war is sending the markets into nosedive territory this week as the tariffs get more chaotic, more frenetic, and attack more allies. And if you're ticked off at the chaos, just get in line. More than half of Americans disapprove of Donald Trump's handling of the economy, 60 percent don't like Elon Musk in charge of pink slips. CEOs are starting to speak out against these trade wars. Jamie Dimon, for example, told America to get over it on tariffs just a few months ago. Now he's changed his tune.
Even Tesla, which Trump became a pitchman for this week, says this strategy is no good. But Trump continues to shrug it all off, which is very interesting because he spent decades judging presidents based on the rise and fall of the Dow. And he spent campaigns forecasting a freefall if he lost.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: If he gets in, you'll have the greatest depression in the history of this country. Your stocks will go to hell.
Our country would go to hell. Our stock markets will crash as sure as you're sitting there.
Trump cash versus Kamala crash. We're going to have a crash like 1929. If she gets in, it will not be pretty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So is this Donald Trump's Fifth Avenue moment? Our friend S.E. poses that question that after all that he's done and all that he's survived, is the economy what may test his strong following and whether it in fact is Teflon. S.E., you say that it might be.
S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, yes, I know that for years, Trump's detractors, myself included, thought, well, this will be it, right? It started with the "Access Hollywood" tape. I think a lot of his fans thought, oh, he can't survive this. He did. Then came impeachments, then came Jan 6th, an insurrection. Then came criminal charges. He's a criminal now. And I think at every turn his detractors thought, well, this will be the end of him.
It's a fundamental misunderstanding of his voters. They don't care about impeachments and insurrections, morality, immorality. They care about their bottom line. And so they care about their bank accounts. They care about their retirement accounts, their home prices, the cost of goods. I think it was never could he shoot someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue and not lose voters? I think it's always been, can he shoot America, the political equivalent, can he blow up the American economy and not lose voters? That's the test, the test of that theory right now.
PHILLIP: I will only quibble with one part of this. I don't think that this is a conversation about Trump's voters. I think it's a conversation about swing voters, about the independents, the people who keep going back and forth between Democrats and Republicans. The Trump people, actually, he -- there might not be anything he could do that they would leave him for. But the people in the middle, they don't like their money being messed with. And that's what's happening right now.
CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I was thinking about what you were just saying about the -- and I agree. First off, thank you. Great article, by the way.
CUPP: Thank you. Thanks.
CHAMPION: And I think that you were able to really contextualize what a lot of people thought. We had a lot of outrage. Just like you, I thought this would be it. This will be it. But to your point, the people in the middle who actually voted for Trump, who thought, OK, maybe he's a businessman. I hear this philosophy all the time. The election was about the economy. He's a businessman. He's a millionaire, soon to be billionaire, or could be, he's going to make the right decisions.
[10:05:08]
And we're seeing in real time. And I just, I'll share a personal story. I go home last week. My grandmother is 95. I always lower her age. She gets upset. She says, don't do that. She's 95 years old.
(LAUGHTER)
CHAMPION: She goes, I am 95 and proud to be 95. And she says to me, she looks directly at me, and I don't know how aware she is of everything, but she is very aware. She goes, I need you to start saving your money because the way that it looks now -- and she voted for Trump. She said, we are in trouble, and I made a mistake.
PHILLIP: Grandma knows.
CHAMPION: She's 95 years old. She lived in the segregated south. She says this scares me and I haven't been this scared since I was a kid.
PHILLIP: That exact language, let me play this sound from a focus group of Michigan voters who they're swing voters, but they voted for Donald Trump. These are Trump's voters. Listen to what they had to say about what things are happening right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everything I believed was going to happen, I think is going to go the opposite direction.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's getting to the point where I'm almost scared to watch the news.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of his actions have just been disruptive and creating chaos.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't think anyone would have voted for him if they expected to see what we're seeing now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was voting for him based off of the economy the first time around, and I'm seeing a significant decline.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's very scary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: You know, Adam, I know that you would have liked people to vote on Trump's, a lot of other things about Trump, his character, his ethics, like democracy, all of that. But these voters are like, I'm scared because he's taking my money and he's messing around with my money and my retirement.
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I think Trump's superpower has been the economy. I've got to tell you, I've talked to so many people that would be like, yes, Adam, I agree with you on Trump generally. But yes, we have inflation, and they would make the economy the issue. This could be his Achilles heel. Again, as S.E. said, we've predicted this 100 times, so it could be 101.
(LAUGHTER)
KINZINGER: But I think the interesting thing is what Donald Trump should be doing now is either trying to talk up the economy, to try to blunt this, or he should be saying, look, no matter what it is, were going to get through this. Instead, he's acting like it's not happening. He's kind of ignoring it. J.D. Vance is kind of ignoring it. And I think that's a symptom, honestly, of narcissism, when you can't take bad news, you can't hear bad things. He surrounded himself with people that only tell him what he wants to hear now. And that could be his downfall, his inability to recognize it and compassionately talk to Americans about it.
MELIK ABDUL, MEMBER BLACK AMERICANS FOR TRUMP COALITION: So I don't think it's narcissism. I think it's what a politician does. You very seldom will you have a politician willing to accept blame or responsibility for anything. I'll go a little further than what you said, because it was a good article. I think you're absolutely right. It is the economy, stupid. And it doesn't matter if it's Donald Trump or anybody else. At the end of the day, with those swing voters that you're talking about -- the diehards, the diehards are not going anywhere. I don't care if it's a Democrat president or a Republican president. The diehards, the base of the party never goes anywhere. It is those swing voters.
And because this kind of what many people describe chaotic, Donald Trump's, his strategy. Donald Trump throws everything at the wall to see what sticks. But once it starts impacting people's bottom lines -- and I'll say, yes, the administration is right. There is some good news that they could share about the economy when it comes to inflationary costs and all of that. But my barometer, and I've talked about this before. Now, the administration says that those egg prices have gone down. I think somebody on television --
PHILLIP: They've gone down maybe like 30 percent or something like that.
ABDUL: Well, I can tell you, my barometer. I went to my local Giant Alabama Avenue, Southeast D.C., they're still 8.99.
PHILLIP: They sure are.
(LAUGHTER)
ABDUL: And the reason that I mentioned that is because someone like me, I don't have a car, so I don't care about gas prices. I don't have kids. So you know, those things are not a big concern for me. It is what I'm paying when I go, not to the pump but at the register.
PHILLIP: But you got to eat.
And, OK, Elon Musk, though, we showed the numbers for him. He has become, I think, a real political drag for this president. I mean, that's almost unequivocal. Every poll shows the same thing. He is deeply unpopular. He's erratic. And voters are just like, what is going on here? And maybe even the ones who were sympathetic to his alleged genius, they don't understand what he's doing with the government.
CUPP: He's also, importantly, unelected.
CHAMPION: Yes, that part. That part.
CUPP: No one chose him to be in charge of our government. And it seems like Trump is really empowering to be in charge of, like, anything he wants. And it's vague. It's unclear. But it's also like omnipresent. He's everywhere and yet nowhere. And I think that ambiguity is frustrating and concerning a lot of people, people who might have given him a chance and thought, this is great.
[10:10:00]
And listen, I am a small government conservative. You won't find a bigger fan of cutting government waste than me. But you have to do this smartly. And no one could argue that this is being done in a smart way.
KINZINGER: And by the way, standing on stage with a chainsaw.
CHAMPION: What are you doing?
KINZINGER: Giggling about it when people are losing their jobs, oh, it's a Democratic ad. And it just shows heartlessness. If you're going to cut jobs, be like, we're sorry, not the giggle chainsaw.
PHILLIP: Yes, we saw the town halls this weekend or this week, and they were angry. And OK, maybe they're Democrats, but it's North Carolina. If Democrats are that worked up in North Carolina, some of them are veterans, there's something --
CUPP: And Texas.
PHILLIP: And Texas.
CHAMPION: And they're telling them not to have these town halls because you don't want to have to deal with it. And they're saying, you know what, to the Republicans, don't have these town halls because it puts you in a bad situation. Why can't you hear from your constituents? To me, hiding or trying to ignore and do what Trump is doing is going to be the downfall of them.
To your point, about Elon, I say this all the time on the show, and only Abby and I get it sometimes when I say he doesn't even go here. I do not know why the fact that this man is unelected -- thank you. Because you've seen --
CUPP: "Mean Girls." Of course.
CHAMPION: You know what I'm saying?
CUPP: Of course I do.
CHAMPION: You know what I'm saying? You guys are like, excuse me? What movie? What movie is this? It's a movie that says you don't belong at the school dance. He doesn't belong at the school dance.
(LAUGHTER)
CHAMPION: Because he doesn't even go here. And it's unfair.
PHILLIP: All right, guys, we've got to leave it there.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: Coming up next, the Trump administration wants to punish college protesters and regulate college courses.
Plus, a Democratic civil war has erupted over the party's strategy as liberals take aim at Chuck Schumer and Gavin Newsom. We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:16:21]
PHILLIP: Welcome back. Trump presidencies are no stranger to protests, but this time around, MAGA wants them punished. Most recently in the case of Mahmoud Khalil. He is the Columbia graduate activist who led an anti-Israel protest on campus, and he is now being detained at a facility in Louisiana by the Trump administration. Here's the problem -- he actually hasn't been charged with anything, and the Trump administration cannot seem to justify it, other than comparing him and accusing him, frankly, of terrorism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHEL MARTIN, MORNING EDITION, NPR: Is any criticism of the government a deportable offense?
TROY EDGAR: It's like I said, as a student, he comes to the United States on a student visa applies. But let me put it this way, Michel, imagine if he came in and filled out the form and said, I want a student visa. They asked him, what are you going to do here? And he --
MARTIN: He was a student.
EDGAR: -- said I'm going to go and protest.
MARTIN: So is protesting a deportable event?
EDGAR: We would never have let him in the country.
MARTIN: Is protesting a deportable offense?
EDGAR: Like I said, you're focus on protesting. I'm focused on the visa process. He went through a legal process, came into country --
MARTIN: Are you saying that he lied on his application? He's a lawful permanent resident, married to an American citizen.
EDGAR: Well, I think if he would have declared he's a terrorist, we would have never let him in.
MARTIN: And what did he engage in that constitutes terrorist activity?
EDGAR: I mean, Michel, have you watched it on TV? It's pretty clear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Legal experts and Democrats sounding the alarm of a First Amendment violation, that includes protesters who showed up at Trump Tower this week, and FOX wasn't happy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look at some of the signage in here. I mean, they hate Israel. They hate Jewish Americans. They are anti-American.
ARI FLEISCHER, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: What happened to Mahmoud Khalil had nothing to do with speech. It has everything to do with creating an encampment. They have the technology to get their faces, match it up with the database, and if any of them are non- citizens, every one of them is trespassing. They all should be deported from this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: You know, the person speaking to Michelle Martin is an attorney. I mean, I'm surprised that he did not have answers to those basic questions because it is important to know what is the crime here. If the crime is protest, first of all, that is protected speech. OK, so if the crime is protest, then they should say so. If it's not, they should say what the crime was at least.
KINZINGER: Yes, this is very chilling. And it comes under a law that has this very strange exception that says if it's not a crime, this can be done at the direction of the secretary of state. So Marco Rubio would have had to have signed off on that. And the law also talks about the fact that if it's something that is generally constitutionally protected, that this law doesn't apply unless the secretary of state signs off.
Look, this guy is somebody that he would be like my archenemy of just a personality that you could put together, right, the things he's said, the things he's done. But I also believe he has every right to stand up and express his belief, even if I abhor that belief. And once we start infringing on that, it's obviously very frightening.
ABDUL: So it's a couple of things for me now. I think that is a great campaign ad for Republicans. I think they're definitely going to use that, because when you have them -- in the end, the guy is it not necessarily -- because I think there are certain parts of Trump Tower that they're not actually trespassing. So I would question if they were, all of them were actually -
PHILLIP: Yes, the lobby part is like a public --
ABDUL: Right, right.
ABDUL: So there are certain parts of that. But I think that that is a good gift for Republicans to have the number of people out there protesting.
[10:20:00]
But there is another side of me, simply because I remember, you talk about that very, they were able to find the fine print and the law. See, I was one of those who complained about what was happening to many of the January 6ers, where they were able to use a very obscure law to go after a number of people. And then you had the courts come in and say that those things were unconstitutional.
So for me, as a Trump, as a Republican, as a Trump supporter, I am uncomfortable with what the government is saying at this point. If they have evidence that he was involved to understand that he was a member of this organization, being a member of an organization that calls for, I believe, the end of western civilization, that is a problem definitely for someone who is, I believe, a green card holder. So I don't feel sorry for him in that regard.
PHILLIP: So one of the things about that is that that whole western civilization thing comes from a social media post that someone made. It's not clear that he even was aware of it. And so the idea that you can attach a social media post from a broader organization to individuals who are part of that organization is, I think, a question here. And also even the idea that, let's say you do believe that it should be the end of western civilization. I mean, that belief, having beliefs --
CUPP: It's not a crime.
PHILLIP: -- Is not a crime. CUPP: Right. Listen, the Hamas charter is bad enough. We don't need to invent stuff or, you know, it's bad enough. I find his views deplorable. But I am so disappointed in the free speech warrior right, and the folks that I grew up with complaining about safe spaces. Protesting is protected. I can't find the crime. He is a legal resident. And I saw something that Glenn Greenwald said. He's a friend and almost always right. He said, imagine if you had someone like Jordan Peterson, who is not American but spends a lot of time here, come to America, decry the Biden administration, and then Biden has him deported. We would all see that and be like, that is crazy and illegal and unconstitutional. But because of who Mahmoud is and because of who Trump is, this is fine. And I cannot square this with the, again, the free speech hawks. It has to count when it's speech you disagree with or else it's meaningless.
CHAMPION: Well, obviously he's doing what -- I mean, I'm telling you, the marketing is for everything he's trying to do is he's really talking to his base. And they appreciate what he's doing. And we know that free speech isn't free, but a right of passage -- protesting is a right of passage. And in my humble opinion, anything that has ever happened in this country that created any significant movement came from protesting and people saying what they did not want. I may not agree with him. I'm in full agreement with your take is, but right now we're telling people this is -- and I don't want to use this word, and I am not someone who is trying to make people feel like they have to be extremely afraid. I don't run around here trying to scare people, but what we're watching, if we see this happen over and over again, we become numb to it. And right now, I think we're becoming numb to it. Even though we may be discussing it, were discussing it in a way where there's not enough, to me, anxiety, enough fear, enough urgency in our voice to see what is happening. Because if it happened to him, it could happen to me.
CUPP: For the next time. For the next time, we'll be number.
PHILLIP: And maybe this is a sign of the times, but every successive administration keeps forgetting that someone else is going to come in and take the thing that they did and take it to the next level. And that's where we are as a country. We are rolling down a hill and we're rolling pretty fast. The question is, what's at the bottom of that hill?
Coming up next, Chuck Schumer sides with Republicans, Gavin Newsom platforms Republicans, and now a Democratic civil war is breaking out, calling on both men to step aside.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:28:13]
PHILLIP: Welcome back. It's a party without a leader, a message, and a plan. And so for Democrats, the familiar voices are filling the vacuum in this second Trump era. Tim Walz takes the blame for their election loss and wants to make up for it by holding town halls in Republican districts. Pete Buttigieg isn't running for the Senate, which paves the way for another run at the White House. Minority leader Chuck Schumer this week angered liberals when he joined Republicans to avert a shutdown. And California Governor Gavin Newsom angered them more when he gave the microphone to a MAGA architect, Steve Bannon, on his podcast.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE BANNON, FORMER ADVISER TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: I think that's a lesson that we learned after President Trump. And look, you know, we disagree on this, but President Trump won the 2020 election, and we were kind of shattered as a movement when he left Washington, D.C., and we had to go back to basics to say, you know, it can't be somebody else do something. We had to do something. And that's where we went back to really a pure populist movement to go at the grassroots, the precinct strategy, and kind of rebuild ourselves from there.
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM, (D) CALIFORNIA: Well, and I appreciate the notion of agency, that we're not bystanders in the world. It's decisions, not conditions, that determine our fate and future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: As you can see there, Newsom, just let it go. He didn't check Bannon's election lie. So are these current Democrats the ones to meet the moment? Well, who knows? But, you know, I listened to that podcast, and it was like one of those things where it's like, that's the only thing you can hear.
CUPP: Yes.
PHILLIP: I was like, wait. It was almost like Bannon was expecting the pushback, and it never came.
CUPP: Yes.
PHILLIP: And so then he just continued.
KINZINGER: Look, this is the -- so Newsom is very transparently running for president. I always thought he was kind of a he'll be whatever he needs to be politician.
[10:30:00]
This is way worse. Look, there are many of us that actually, I'm not saying this for sympathy, but basically sacrificed a career taking on people like Steve Bannon. Newsom is trying to build a career by somebody like Steve Bannon. This is not, this isn't Jonah Goldberg coming on and talking about the differences between conservative and -- this is a guy who said, who basically bilked his supporters, by the way, for a fake wall, went to jail for not coming to Congress, said right before January 6th that this was going to be, basically it's going to blow your socks off what happens. Like, this is a bad man. And to platform him and think that somehow, I don't know what Newsom thinks he's going to win by this. Democrats are ticked off at him and there's no Republican that's going, you know what California liberal? I like him.
(LAUGHTER)
KINZINGER: This is nuts.
PHILLIP: Yes, and not for nothing, but he's got other problems.
CUPP: Yes. OK.
PHILLIP: Big ones in his state. I mean, that is going to be the number one thing that gets in the way, gets between him and the White House is California. And California is a big, prosperous state. But his governance of that state is going to be under the microscope.
CUPP: Yes, he's got a lot going on. This is a bad look. But for the Democrats and everyone you just mentioned, this is not it. This is not it.
PHILLIP: You don't want more Tim Walz?
CUPP: No, I mean inviting your friendly neighborhood authoritarian on your podcast to yuck it up. Thats not it. Or Chuck Schumer doing, like, cringe videos and chants or choose your fighter. That is not it either. It's like the Democrats cannot see through what is looking at them straight in the face. Their policies were so toxic that a convicted criminal got elected again. Look at the top three policies that have impact, the top three issues that voters told you to your face mattered -- the economy, crime, and immigration. Listen, Democrats have very popular policies elsewhere, on abortion, on climate, on entitlements, on health care. They're winning on those. They have lost on those three issues. And they were the top three issues. If they want to pretend that that's not a problem for them, and we just need to have Steve Bannon on and break bread with like MAGA insurrectionists, they are not going to get there ever, let alone in time for 2028.
BLACKWELL: Governor Newsom is doing the -- I'm sorry --- he's doing the -- I think what a lot of people have seen, these popular podcasters have much more power, just like influencers have more power than stars do. And what people are trying to do in real time is reconfigure what they look like and how they appear on television. I was having a conversation with my friend. He is a huge -- he books deals for these influencers, and they make more money. They have more influence. They have more social reach. He gathered a group of five of them and they could reach up to 4 billion people. And so imagine being able to have that power.
And he is trying to do that with his podcast, Governor Newsom is trying to do that with his podcast. But what he's missing is, is that he's not built for that. He's missed his window. It's not who he is, and people can see through that.
PHILLIP: It's like a tone thing.
CHAMPION: He's so tone deaf to everything that's happening.
PHILLIP: I actually think there's some things that actually they need to hear from Steve Bannon about what populism looks like on the right, right? But the tone of it was like.
BLACKWELL: Hey, bud.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: Let's go together. There was a lot of -- the word "appreciate" was spoken so many times that you couldn't really hear almost anything else.
ABDUL: Yes, I'll go with what Cari said, because I think that that's a very good point. I was getting ready to say a very similar thing about what Gavin Newsom is doing. He's trying to tap into this podcast market, but he's not the person to actually do it. Because you're right, he's not built for it. So it did look awkward.
As we were talking about free speech, I think that it is something, it's not going to help Newsom. But I think and for another person being able to tap into that market, that podcast, bro market or whatever it is --
CHAMPION: But you're right on that. He's trying to be a podcast bro. I have no problem --
ABDUL: He's just not authentic.
CUPP: But how about talking to voters?
PHILLIP: Yes, well, they're also missing what is making the podcast people on the right work, which is that they have convictions.
CHAMPION: They believe what they say, whether it's right or wrong.
PHILLIP: They have something to say to people that are bringing people into the tent. And to your point, you have to bring people in. OK? And I don't see, who's doing it on the left.
ABDUL: They have different --
KINZINGER: There's nobody.
ABDUL: I think everybody just has different roles. And because there is no consistent message, you have people on this side doing their things in the Democratic Party.
CHAMPION: I just don't think there's anybody in the Democratic Party that can lead right now.
CUPP: Same.
CHAMPION: There's not one person right now, one representative.
ABDUL: It looks like that.
CHAMPION: And it looks that way. And they can't they can't agree. They just cant.
PHILLIP: Last word to you.
KINZINGER: I can make a bold prediction. All the people we're talking about right now will not end up being the nominee for the Democrats. It always works that way. Somebody new is going to come along with a new message.
PHILLIP: I'll go with you on that one. I think history tells us that is very likely to be the case.
Coming up next for us, the Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, thinks the military needs to meet a higher standard and that looking at bellies and beards is the first step to getting us there.
[10:35:00]
We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Welcome back. "The Biggest Loser" and Supercuts may soon be coming to the Pentagon. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, who made his name by looking the part, has ordered a review of the military fitness standards, body composition, and grooming, which includes beards.
[10:40:03]
Hegseth says troops will be fit, not fat, and a Pentagon statement took it even further. Quote, "Unfortunately, the U.S. military's high standards eroded in recent years, particularly during the tenure of former Joint Chiefs Chairman Mark Milley, who set a bad example from the top through his own personal corpulence." That's a real statement.
Obviously, that's Thesaurus.com way of calling Milley fat. So were fat shaming now from the Pentagon. But on these standards, I mean, you served. You have a beard.
(LAUGHTER)
KINZINGER: You.
CHAMPION: Risque.
PHILLIP: What is this all about? Why is he so worked up about this? And how is this going to be received?
KINZINGER: It's all image. So the fitness thing. Look, I would love for the fitness standards to be tip top. The problem is you're not recruiting people right now because America in general, particularly young people, are not in as good a shape as they were 20 years ago when these things were written. I think they're going to ultimately have to change fitness standards for certain MOS's and certain jobs. But I have no problem with the focus on that.
PHILLIP: Hasn't that always been the case, each branch has its own fitness standards.
KINZINGER: Yes. Yes, they do.
PHILLIP: And also, I mean, one of the things that this piece points out in Military.com where this was reported, is that there's actually no evidence that it has changed in the last four years.
KINZINGER: Right, there isn't. There isn't. But I'll say quickly about the beards, I think this is really dumb of him, honestly, because when you deploy with like the European troops and stuff and they all have beards, they look way cooler than we do.
(LAUGHTER)
KINZINGER: And honestly, I know the military members what to have them.
CUPP: Much more scary.
KINZINGER: Yes, totally.
CHAMPION: I said this in the break. The Yankees, the New York Yankees had this longstanding rule, 50 years, that the players could not have beards. Former owner George Steinbrenner, it was his military background that said you cannot have a beard. They lifted that this season. And I'm like, if they lifted it, I think beards are back. I think it's OK, because it presents a certain, I think, a je ne sais quoi that you talk about, saying they look way cooler. But we need to be able to allow people to express themselves in very different ways. I'm like, if the Yankees are doing it, what is going on?
ABDUL: It's very conservative, the very clean cut look. And if you are, if you've been around D.C.
PHILLIP: If it was my personal military, I would be fine with no beards, but it's not.
(LAUGHTER)
ABDUL: It's kind of like the same like everybody has a certain look. So for women, I think that the, the designer that a lot of women, you know, they come to D.C. and wear Saint John, maybe.
CHAMPION: Oh, boy!
ABDUL: But that look.
CHAMPION: I don't think we wear that anymore, do we?
ABDUL: But I'm saying but that was the very --
KINZINGER: Like Jordache jeans.
ABDUL: Capital Hill type of look. And I think that that's what they're talking about. I don't -- look, I think that the military, they have to do what they have to do. I'm not opposed to people with beards, but I do understand, and I know a lot of men who do not -- I don't even think Trump is a fan of beards. CUPP: Who cares what Trump is a fan of?
PHILLIP: Can we just add one more thing to this.
ABDUL: I can't grow one.
CUPP: All men can't grown beards. It's not even a real thing.
PHILLIP: It's a big question how this is all going to work out, because it's not just the beards. I mean, the beards are obviously a big part of it. But one of the changes that have been made, or some of the changes to the beards have been also because black men have complained about having skin issues, like dermatological issues, because of having to shave. They're more prone to those types of issues. Black women want to be able to wear their hair in cornrows and in other styles that don't require daily styling. Are they going to try to roll those things back in the name of killing DEI?
KINZINGER: They already are.
CUPP: Yes, of course they are. Here's what I don't understand. I'm for the fitness, and we should make sure that our military is fit. What do beards have to do with lethality? Because that's Pete Hegseth favorite word, "lethality."
ABDUL: Readiness.
CUPP: That is his favorite word. And I don't understand. What can --
PHILLIP: Can I play what he has said about this in the past just so people, I guess, get his point of view on this. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I mean, and it starts with the basic stuff, right? It's grooming standards and uniform standards and training standards, fitness standards, all of that matters. It's almost like the broken windows theory of policing. When you ignore the small stuff from criminals, and I'm not saying if you violate grooming standards, you're a criminal. The analogy is incomplete. But if you violate the small stuff and you allow it to happen to big stuff, it creates a culture where big stuff, you're not held accountable for. I think the same thing exists inside our services.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: That cutaway did a lot.
KINZINGER: This is what every terrible commander says.
(LAUGHTER)
KINZINGER: Honest to God. They're like, you know, we'd wear like little pin pads on our flight suit, and people would go, you can't wear that. And they're like, because if I can't trust you to wear your uniform, right, how can I trust you to fly a gajillion dollar plane? Well, you trained me to and I have -- so that's good to go, right? I'm fine.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: All right, guys, we could continue this for a little while, but we've got to go.
Coming up next, a college education used to be the ticket to a better life, but with prices hitting new highs, is higher education even worth it at this price tag? We'll debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:49:45]
PHILLIP: Welcome back. The average salary in America is about $65,000. The cost of tuition at the nation's most expensive school, well, it's nearly twice that. To attend USC next year, it will cost you $100,000, $100,000 for one year.
[10:50:00]
The school acknowledges the eyepopping numbers, but it says, quote, "The last thing we want, however, is cost to prevent a student from enrolling at USC." Well, the reality is that that is a tough ask for many families, most families actually. Is it worth it?
CHAMPION: No. Two-thirds of the students there are on obviously some sort of merit-based program, whether they have a scholarship or financial aid or loans. I understand that. But as someone who went to UCLA, so take this with a grain of salt, I will say this. Very few people choose that school based on how difficult it is to get into. It's more of a status thing, and it's in downtown Los Angeles.
PHILLIP: If you can pay for it.
CHAMPION: If you can pay for it. It's in downtown Los Angeles. I refuse to let my child spend most of their time in downtown L.A. And I know were trying to make it different, but you're stepping over bums on your way to campus. And $100,000 is ridiculous, and I don't think they need to do that.
CUPP: It is ridiculous. No one should have to pay $400,000 to go to college. But the good news is, I'll just push back a little bit. No one has to.
CHAMPION: No one has to.
CUPP: This is a free market, right? A market of competition. You can, like, vote with your wallet and say, screw you, USC. That is insane. And it is. It is insane. And there are lots of affordable colleges to choose from. And I think people should start shunning these high dollar, big ticket, give you nothing colleges.
PHILLIP: I think that that it's pushing the prices up everywhere.
CHAMPION: Everywhere. PHILLIP: OK, what we used to call affordable was like maybe five
grand a semester. You could work, you could have a job. You cannot do that anymore in this country. Where are people, like, how are people affording this? And why should they? We need -- I think we need something different. We need a whole different system.
ABDUL: I think that some people are going broke doing it. You know, there are.
PHILLIP: Of course, and they've got debt.
ABDUL: There are people, I'm sure many people who have the resources to do it. But a lot of people go broke because they want that name.
CHAMPION: Can we bring back trade schools?
ABDUL: I was going to mention vocational schools, and that's something we need.
PHILLIP: They need the name because to get a job they want to see where you went to school. And it's hard for people who don't go --
KINZINGER: I don't know. So I think, unless, you know, I guess I went to the military and whatever. So I haven't had to really apply for a job in a while, but I don't think employers really care where you went to school. Right? I think if you go, you show your good, maybe the very first job it has like an impact. But after that, nobody, nobody's -- I went to Illinois State University. Go Redbirds. I love Illinois State. But nobody's ever asked me what college I've gone to in terms of whether I'm qualified for something or not.
PHILLIP: I also think the military is still a good ticket to the middle class.
CHAMPION: Thats right.
PHILLIP: You should consider it.
Coming up next, the panel's unpopular opinions. What, they're not afraid to say out loud.
But first, a programing note. Get the inside story on Twitter with an all new episode of "Breaking the Bird." It airs tomorrow night at 10:00 p.m. right here on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:57:3]
PHILLIP: We're back, and it's time for your unpopular opinions. You each have 30 seconds to tell us yours. Melik, you're up.
ABDUL: Look, so in the LeBron versus Stephen A. Smith fight, I'll say I am with King James on this. And I'll tell you why. It is one thing to be critical, and I think it's very valid to criticize Bronny. He's in the industry. Thats what you're doing. But what Stephen A. Smith did, he talked -- he literally said, I'm talking to you as a father. I'm coming to you as a father. And see for me, I'm like, bro, you're questioning my fatherhood. And I think that's what LeBron was responding to. Not that he was criticizing his son. You're coming to me as a father, and then I'm going to come to you on the court as a father. So I know people don't feel so good about it.
PHILLIP: We'll take it to the podcast.
CUPP: Yes, I totally disagree, but that's OK.
(LAUGHTER)
CUPP: My unpopular opinion is Andrew Cuomo, go away. Nobody wants you back. Nobody wants you here. Nobody wants you. My friend --
PHILLIP: How unpopular is that opinion?
CUPP: No, I feel like it's not. I just watched this group of, like, 100 women hold an event for him. Makes me want to shoot myself in the head. My friend Lindsey Boylan, his first accuser, wrote a really powerful piece in "Vanity Fair" that everyone should read. Democrats, can we can we do better? I think we can do better.
PHILLIP: All right.
CHAMPION: Unpopular opinion. Who you date really determines who you are, and it could shadow your legacy. It could make people feel a different way about you. I say this in thinking about Whitney Houston when she started dating Bobby Brown back in the day. We were like, America's princess is dating Bobby? Turns out he's OK. But now that I see Tiger Woods allegedly dating Vanessa Trump, I'm going to tell you something.
KINZINGER: Oh, God.
CHAMPION: Correct.
(LAUGHTER)
CHAMPION: The people who really hold you to a certain standard, and you opened up a lot of doors for especially marginalized men who now play this thing called golf. We thank you. You've brought us a lot of wonderful things. But more and more, I'm starting to learn about you. And it's making me think, is he one of my favorites? I shouldn't feel that way because two should -- I should separate the two. But I can't. I really, truly can't.
PHILLIP: He's not a good person, I don't think. I guess stick to sports.
KINZINGER: Mine's not going to take long. I don't like selfies. OK, now here's the thing. It's fine if you want to, and I actually prefer it if somebody wants to take a picture with somebody. Selfies are great. OK, and that's fine, that's fine. But what I can't stand, and I've violated this. So I'm not sitting here saying I'm sinless, but just people taking a selfie of themselves and posting it on Instagram. (LAUGHTER)
CHAMPION: That's what Instagram is for.
KINZINGER: Here you all need to see me at this --
CHAMPION: That's what Instagram is for.
KINZINGER: I guess -- I've violated it. I just hate it.
PHILLIP: I get it. I get it, Adam. I think you're right. But I think that we all do it.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: Everybody, thank you. Thank you very much.
Thank you for watching "TABLE FOR FIVE" for five. You can catch me every weeknight, 10:00 p.m. eastern at our NEWS NIGHT ROUNDTABLE and anytime on your favorite social media platforms, X, Instagram, and TikTok, @AbbyDPhillip. But in meantime, CNN's coverage continues right now.
