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Trump Administration Tariff Policy Causing Instability and Uncertainty in U.S. Stock Market; President Trump Directing Department of Justice to Investigate Former First Term Trump Administration Aide Miles Taylor; Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Suggests Americans Who Lead Unhealthy Lifestyle Should Not Expect Other Americans to Pay for Their Health Insurance; Former Megadonor for Democratic Party Says He Has More Access Now to Trump Administration than Previous Democratic Administrations; Former U.S. First Lady Michelle Obama Responds to Rumors of Divorce with Barack Obama after She Did Not Attend Trump Inauguration and Funeral of Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter with Her Husband. Aired 10-11a ET.
Aired April 12, 2025 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:00:34]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, Donald Trump starts the fire, lets the flames burn, calls the fire department, and gets called a hero.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a great purge.
TRUMP: Except now the fire is not out and it's spreading.
Plus, his team swore he wasn't out for blood. But the president is now ordering the DOJ to investigate his former aides.
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: I think he's guilty of treason.
PHILLIP: For crimes punishable by death.
Also, a Democratic mega-donor turns MAGA for access.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I couldn't get a -- phone call returned from the White House to save my life.
PHILLIP: Does the admission expose the game?
And to have, to hold, and to hit back at rumors of divorce.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I chose to do what was best for me.
PHILLIP: Here in studio, Melik Abdul, Joanna Coles, Gretchen Carlson, and Michael Kosta. It's the weekend. Join the conversation at the "TABLE FOR FIVE".
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Good morning. I'm Abby Phillip from New York.
For his first act, Donald Trump, the magician, made trillions of dollars disappear with a snap of his sharpies. Except now, the rabbit is missing, and the crowd is scared, and it appears that there is nothing up his sleeve.
It's hard to overstate how extraordinary this last week has been. See if you can follow below. Trump launches a historic tariff war, 185 nations hit with it, including an island with only penguins on it. No one can justify the fuzzy math. The markets tank for days. His voters are panicking. Ditto for CEOs, business owners, politicians, everyone.
The Trump administration's explanations are all over the place. His aides deny that it's a negotiation. He confirms that it is. His aides deny that he'll budge. Then he budges. His aides deny that the tariffs will pause. Then he pauses. His aides claim that the art of the deal is at play. He says no, it's just because people were getting a little, quote, "yippee-yappy."
And while I'd be -- it'd be a relief to say that the dust has settled on all of this, this magic show, the truth is that the crowd cannot leave. The smoke machine is just getting revved up, and Trump is now bringing out a deck of cards, because the United States is still in a massive trade war, despite whatever you hear from the White House, particularly when it comes to China. And economists are still predicting a recession, with this threat of tariffs hanging over our heads in 90 days, or it could be tomorrow.
What are we doing here, Gretchen? I mean, this election was about the economy. It was about people saying, for the last four years, you have not paid enough attention to what it costs to live here. Why would then the president who won on a message that is largely I'll fix it, come in and then raise prices, maybe throw a bunch of small businesses into bankruptcy, maybe push the country off the brink into a recession?
GRETCHEN CARLSON, CO-FOUNDER, LIFE OUT VOICES: Yes, if I had the answer to that, I don't know. I'd be worth a lot more than I am. Look, and the price of eggs reached a record high in March as well at $6.72 a dozen. And that was supposed to be -- I mean, that was what we heard after this election.
PHILLIP: It went down for like a hot second.
CARLSON: Right, right, right. But according to Donald Trump, egg prices have gone down 79 percent. So that is the environment that we are in right now. You're not going to change the hearts and minds of the MAGA voters, even though their 401(k)s and any other investment is going into the tank. It's the people in the middle who are probably now questioning a lot why they voted for Donald Trump. This was -- he promised tariffs, but he didn't promise taking over Greenland. He didn't promise taking over Canada. He didn't promise taking over the Panama Canal. And I don't think he promised tanking the market. PHILLIP: I almost think that if he had stuck with what he actually
promised, which was, what, 20 percent across the board, I actually don't know that we would have seen the reaction. It's the complete randomness of this tariff plan that I think has caused people to be like, what are they doing over there?
MELIK ABDUL, MEMBER BLACK AMERICANS FOR TRUMP COALITION: Well, you know, so we always, at least for me, a lot of the times when I'm going around and I hear from people, they know that I'm coming to CNN, they'll say, you know, we'll have different conversations.
So I've been away for a couple of weeks. As you see, I have a different haircut.
[10:05:00]
It was the barbershop.
PHILLIP: OK.
ABDUL: I was at the barbershop on yesterday, and it's not like the people in the barbershop were just wholeheartedly supportive of Donald Trump. But the one thing that they said, that man knows business. That wasn't the conversation yesterday. So I walked in. It was like they were ready for me to come in, and they literally said, man, what is going on with your mans? And trying to explain to them what happened in this week. I started the week. I was like, I know I'm going to CNN. I'm going to have a good, a lot of good stuff to say. But it is what I can only describe as a very chaotic week. Because you're right, a lot of the things that you pointed out, Donald Trump, they were full- throated in this.
And this is the thing, it was the certainty that this is going to work. And as we, the market got that little bump, and they said, see, this is this is what dealmaking is, this is art of the deal. And then we see a different story. And it is the messaging where you have Donald Trump saying one thing. You may have Karoline Leavitt saying another thing. You may have Lutnick saying another thing. You may have Bessent saying another thing. And Bessent in his press conference said that this was all part of the plan. We were going to do this all along. Now, this is before the market tanked the next day -- we were going to do this all along because we wanted to see who our partners were. And he specifically said, is that if you didn't retaliate, you would be rewarded.
What? That's just not how this sort of thing works. And it lets you know that there was no strategy. It was a lot of shoot from the hip. And I say this as someone -- I always have to remind people that I voted for the man three times. This is not what I expected.
JOANNA COLES, CHIEF CONTENT OFFICER, "THE DAILY BEAST": A glutton for punishment.
ABDUL: This is not what --
MICHAEL KOSTA, COMEDIAN AND HOST, "THE DAILY SHOW": I miss, I miss -- PHILLIP: Does that come as a surprise?
KOSTA: Yes, it comes as a surprise. I miss talking about Hunter Biden's laptop right now.
(LAUGHTER)
KOSTA: I miss you're using the wrong bathroom. I miss eggs. We're talking about global economic warfare. I mean, you know, in my family, should we buy a house now? We got to hold off on all this stuff. We don't know what is going on. And, you know, that can work to your advantage. My daughter says, can I have ice cream? It's like, look, there's too much uncertainty right now, sweetheart.
(LAUGHTER)
KOSTA: But this is not the conversation we should be having, that the economy sucks. So it's a mess.
COLES: Well, it's a little bit. I actually think Larry Fink at Blackrock, the CEO of Blackrock, said it best. America used to be the great global stabilizer. Now we're the great global destabilizer. And that's so distressing, and it's such an own goal. It's so unnecessary. And the changes we're seeing are not for the better for anybody. And all the CEOs I talked to, and I've talked to a lot over the last couple of weeks, are really anxious about what this is doing to America's reputation and to the actuality of doing business.
PHILLIP: Do you remember when Donald Trump used to talk about the stock market and say things like this?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: The stock market is soaring to record levels. Their values are going up every single day.
We have made America wealthy again. Look at our stock market. Look at that market. Look at your 401(k)s.
If he gets in, you'll have the greatest depression in the history of this country. Your stocks will go to hell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Maybe this is why some people on Wall Street are starting to question whether Trump isn't just erratic, but actually maybe isn't all there. I mean, that's been some of the reporting this week, is that they're actually concerned that this is so irrational, it cannot be explained by a person in their right mind, because Donald Trump understands how important the stock market is. And he used to care.
CARLSON: He used to care. And last week, if you really wanted to handle this the right way, I mean, everyone would agree that maybe America has been taken advantage of with some of these tariffs. So go to some of these nations and say, OK, we're going to start at 20 percent, but have a private negotiation with them, and then say, OK, can we get it down to 10 percent and go back and forth. They know exactly what entity in each of these countries they want to try and get rid of or reduce. That is not -- that's the art of the deal, by the way. That is not how this happened.
KOSTA: He was so excited about this. This is his big thing.
CARLSON: This is -- he's been talking about it for forever.
KOSTA: He finally got to do it. And then he didn't know how to do it.
CARLSON: But you know what the biggest disappointment is, to your point that people are now worried about what's going on inside of his head? Where are the Republicans? Where are the Republicans to stand up to this other than a couple.
PHILLIP: It's maybe a week or two, and they will break down.
COLES: But the Republicans --
PHILLIP: Because it's going to start to hurt at home.
COLES: The Republicans have been nowhere all along. This is consistent behavior for them. But what's concerning is that America, you know, the American economy is one of the great glories of the world. It's one of the seven wonders of the world. And that's not going to be true anymore.
[10:10:00]
And he's supposed to be leaning into this sense of being a radical president that, at the end, he's supposed to leave the economy in incredible shape, and he doesn't care what it takes to get there. But this is already going way off the table.
PHILLIP: Michael, about how this is his thing, that is so true. And this is the irrational part, right? Trump has been talking about this since the 80s, and he seems to have ignored everything that happened between, you know, 1987 and today, which is that the United States continues, even with trade being imperfect, to dominate the rest of the world by every measure. He doesn't factor that in when he says that were losing, that were being taken advantage of that, that everything sucks for us, even though we are winning.
ABDUL: This reminds me of DOGE, where people are supportive of the concept of DOGE eliminating waste, fraud, and abuse. The problem that people have is how you went about it. People are supportive of reciprocal taxes, on tariffs, and a lot of these things. The problem for Donald Trump is how he went about it. And so when you have your list and you go out there and say, we're going to slap tariffs on these people, on these different countries, and then after the fact, when you're asked, can you give us a list of those 75 countries, please? They say, oh no, we're not going to give you that information. It is how Donald Trump went about this.
And so what he should have done at the beginning, and you have a lot of people smarter than me, like, literally, I sourced all conservative outlets trying to figure out what argument I would make. It simply did not work. If Donald Trump had done this 90-day pause at the beginning, or just said, we're going to make this about China. We're going to give a 90-day review period for a lot of these other countries, that would have been much better than making a big deal about the tariffs, liberation day. And then within hours of them going into effect, you say, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We have a 90-day pause.
KOSTA: We're throwing tariffs around like -- Trump, Trump oftentimes means trade deficit when he's talking about tariffs. That bulletin board was just an example of trade deficits. It reminds me of my father, rest in peace. He said he loved jazz. He loved jazz. Then he would go to a jazz club and he'd go, I don't like this. We'd go, dad, it's blues you like.
(LAUGHTER)
KOSTA: It's a totally different thing. He thinks tariffs -- right, to him, it's all music. To him --
PHILLIP: It's a totally different thing.
KOSTA: It's trade deficits that are pissing him off.
PHILLIP: Yes.
KOSTA: That one is for you, dad.
PHILLIP: It's a totally different thing.
Coming up next for us, the president is publicly doing something that he accused Joe Biden of doing, weaponizing the Department of Justice to target two of his former aides.
Plus, a megadonor says the quiet part out loud about why he switched from Democrats to MAGA. Here are his revelation and what it says about this presidency and the elites.
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[10:17:40]
PHILLIP: Without evidence, Donald Trump and his allies spent an entire campaign accusing Joe Biden of personally weaponizing the DOJ, even though that same DOJ prosecuted Biden's own son. Now the president is doing that very thing publicly and with a pen. He is ordering the Justice Department to investigate two of his former aides, aides who criticized him, one for refusing to say that the election was stolen, and the other for writing the anonymous op-ed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: I said, who the hell is Miles Taylor? And I think what he did, he wrote a book anonymous, said all sorts of lies, bad things. I think it's a very important case. And I think he's guilty of treason. If you want to know the truth. This guy Krebs was saying, oh, the election was great. It was great.
Well, we're going to find out about this guy, too, because this guy is a wise guy. He said we proved this is the most secure election in the history of our country. No, this was a disaster.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So I don't understand how in 2025, we are still talking about whether the election was stolen or not. It was not. And he put it in a government document and executive order that the White House claims is law, that Chris Krebs, his offense was that he claimed that the election was fair. That is absolutely wild.
ABDUL: So I, on the -- I can't think of the other guy. Maybe it's, I think Taylor.
PHILLIP: Miles Taylor.
ABDUL: Taylor. I don't have a problem with Donald Trump revoking his security clearance, because I was one of those in the administration. This anonymous letter, that means that you were willing to undermine the president of the United States. I would have that --
PHILLIP: Why is that a reason to revoke someone's --
ABDUL: I would have that position if it were a Joe Biden, if it were a Barack Obama. You should not -- what you should do is resign. If you're that opposed to the government, the president that you work for, what you should do is resign.
On the other hand, as someone who spent the last several years talking about how Joe Biden was weaponizing the Department of Justice against Donald Trump, well, here we go.
PHILLIP: Let me ask you a question. By comparison, the allegation that Joe Biden was weaponizing the DOJ against Trump, there is no concrete evidence of that at all, right?
[10:20:01]
This is an executive order signed in the Oval Office directing his Justice Department to go after two people that he has identified as his political enemies. Isn't this crystal clear weaponization? And isn't this way on the scale of things, way more egregious than the allegations against Joe Biden?
ABDUL: I don't disagree with you, because Donald Trump is accusing them of actual crimes. That's why I said, if you want to revoke a security clearance, you as president of the United States, you have every right to do that. But then to say that there was something criminal behind it, that's a much different story. And even though -- I'll say it on television, the 2020 election was not stolen. It was not stolen. But this is something that Donald Trump will probably continue to say.
PHILLIP: Do you think that the DOJ was weaponized against Trump? Seeing all of this?
ABDUL: I think that, yes, I think it was.
CARLSON: Well, he said he was going to do this. There were numerous enemy lists out there. I mean, so far, the one thing that's come true is that things that he said he's doing. And if you watch that cabinet meeting yesterday, which was a total fawning session over Donald Trump by all of his secretaries, you saw the attorney general, Pam Bondi, being the biggest suck up to Donald Trump yesterday. And so if you think the Department of Justice is not going to go through with these executive orders or have any kind of pushback, they're not going to have any pushback.
COLES: I don't think that's fair. Actually, I do think they're having pushback. And you see, the judge I don't know how you pronounce her name. Is it Xinis, the judge who has insisted that they bring back --
CARLSON: Right, but that's different.
COLES: Right. But what you're seeing is actually judges speaking up.
CARLSON: Yes, but not the Department of Justice.
COLES: You're seeing -- right.
PHILLIP: The courts.
COLES: But you're seeing the courts. You're seeing judges. You're seeing the Supreme Court, you're seeing Amy Coney Barrett, who nobody thought was going to do this, actually pushing back.
So this is Trump making noise and doing what Donald Trump does incredibly effectively, which is whipping everybody up. But you also see the professionals in the in the larger justice system, in the courts pushing back. And we should all be grateful for that. These are brave people.
PHILLIP: To your point about the pushback, this woman who used to work at the Justice Department and refused to give Mel Gibson his gun rights back after all these allegations of abuse against him, she actually said the DOJ tried to threaten her. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIZ OYER, FORMER PARDON ATTORNEY: I learned that the deputy attorney general's office had directed the department's security and emergency planning service to send two armed special deputy U.S. marshals to my home to serve me with a letter. The letter was a warning to me about the risks of testifying here today. But I am here because I will not be bullied into concealing the ongoing corruption and abuse of power at the Department of Justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Her allegations are about this Mel Gibson thing, but it's so much bigger than that. I mean, they wanted to stop her from testifying before Congress.
KOSTA: I want my president to be tougher than this. I do.
(LAUGHTER)
KOSTA: I don't -- you know, they love the First Amendment. But then here people are exercising their right to criticize him. And it's like, throw the book at him. It's weak. When I perform on the road, I'll say to the crowd, I'm about to make fun of Trump. And now I'm -- and then I'm going to make fun of Biden. This is what I would say. And as soon as you make fun of Trump, people go crazy. They stand up and they can't take it. They cant -- I'm going to make fun of the other one, too.
PHILLIP: Where are you doing your show.
KOSTA: Real America.
COLES: I'm sure it's not just your jokes, though.
KOSTA: Yes, maybe it could be me. That's true. They say you've never been funny for 10 years.
No, but I mean, why does this alpha male president, executive, why is it so thin-skinned? Show me a real man that is going to be concerned about this.
COLES: I think Gretchen's point about the fawning that was going on yesterday in cabinet was so interesting, and I cannot tell you the number of people I have spoken to around Trump who like to say in hushed tones, I am one of the very few people who speaks truth to Trump. And you're like, only if you're saying what he wants to hear.
ABDUL: Well, you know --
PHILLIP: They are scared.
ABDUL: Yes. If there is a cabinet meeting, there's going to be fawning. It isn't just with Donald Trump.
CARLSON: While the markets were tanking.
ABDUL: If even --
CARLSON: That was --
ABDUL: You would be very unlikely -- it's very unlikely to have people who weren't fawning over a president --
PHILLIP: I feel like that's a Trump thing. That's not a regular thing.
ABDUL: It is regular. If any president --
CARLSON: They were all trying to outdo each other. ABDUL: You're not going to have people who work for a president, any cabinet officials say anything that may even be seen as negative of that person. That's just what --
COLES: -- levels of fawning.
PHILLIP: Yes. And I think listen, the cabinet officials should be in the cabinet meeting talking about the work they're doing on behalf of the American people.
ABDUL: This was more of a show.
PHILLIP: Not spending all their time praising their boss. I don't know, I mean, that's what it used to be like in Washington, but things have changed.
[10:25:00]
Coming up next, should you get fewer health benefits if you are a smoker or if you are an unhealthy eater? Well, it's an idea that RFK Jr. is now floating around, but it does not extend, apparently, to vaccine choice. We'll discuss that next.
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PHILLIP: Welcome back. Should American taxpayers pay for your health care if you lead an unhealthy lifestyle? It's a provocative question, but now that RFK Jr. is in charge of the nation's well-being, it's a reality.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: If you're smoking three packs of cigarettes a day, should you expect society to pay when you get sick? If you want to eat, you know, donuts all day or, you know, and drink sodas, that's your choice.
[10:30:04]
We live in America, and you, God bless you. You can make that choice. And I would never take that away from somebody. But in terms of, should you then expect society to care for you when you predictably get very sick at the same level as somebody who was born with a congenital illness?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The premise raises a lot of questions. How would you regulate? Is it ethical? And would that include RFK's boss who famously loves his fast food? In fact, RFK sat, I think, on Air Force One, eating McDonald's with also. Like, huh?
KOSTA: Didn't he say he was a heroin addict for 14 years? I mean --
PHILLIP: I mean, yes. KOSTA: I mean, did he have health care then? You know, I mean, look,
the problem with RFK Jr. is sometimes he says things that I agree with. Not most of the time. Every once in a while. I've been telling health care companies for years, I can't afford your health care. But come time me running a mile. You're going to see my mile time and go, look, this guy's rock solid.
PHILLIP: We need him in the pool, so that we can --
KOSTA: Thats what I'm saying.
But it's like this is a good point he brings up, but.
CARLSON: Well, the good part of the point is that the only way you can fight chronic illness is to try to root out the evil of what's causing chronic illness. So if you're smoking three packs a day and you get lung cancer and have chronic illness, yes, you probably shouldn't have smoked three packs a day. I think that's what he's getting at here. So I can understand the agreement process.
It made me think of what Sarah Huckabee Sanders has wanted to do as governor down south with Medicaid, I believe it was, where she -- or no, with food stamps. She was going to change the healthiness of it so that you couldn't buy junk food and sugared sodas anymore, because that's what's cheaper, right. And then that's making America more heavy and more obese. I agree with that premise. So if there's a way to try and combine this to try and encourage Americans to eat healthier, then I think we do move down the road to --
PHILLIP: But I think is there a real question about is it ethical to essentially punish people for making one set of bad choices? But people make bad choices all the time? I mean, is that really was fair to do?
KOSTA: That was my point about the heroin, just so you know.
(LAUGHTER)
COLES: Well, there's nothing like, there's nothing like the zeal of a former addict to tell everybody else what we should do, right. So on that basis alone, I would rule him out. Plus, he's got a brain worm, so we don't know which part of the brain his brain worm actually ate. But he confirmed he had one. This is a man who leaves dead bears in the middle of Central Park and wastes precious police resources to figure out his silly practical joke.
But more importantly, and perhaps you can help me on this, what has happened to the Republican Party who used to want to stay out of our lives, who believed in lesser government? How on earth would you measure how many donuts people had? Would we have smoking police that stood on the corner?
PHILLIP: And there are plenty of people who --
COLES: Do we have neighbors that snitched on each other? This is an absurd conversation, and we should be embarrassed that he's introduced this.
PHILLIP: There are plenty of people who eat a donut a day and they don't develop diabetes. Why? We don't really know. It could be genetics. And then another person, they eat a donut every three days and they develop diabetes. How on earth are you going to regulate that kind of thing?
And why -- I guess the other part is RFK Jr. has absolutely no credentials to be in this position, which is why we have conversations like this. Thats that's the real issue.
ABDUL: So to answer to answer your -- answer your question, too, the Republican Party, and that was one of the things that attracted me to the Republican Party, the idea of smaller government. We are no longer as small a government as we used to be. I'm assuming that when RFK is talking about paying for other people's bad choices, he's talking about Medicaid, because if it comes to it -- when it gets to like private insurance, then what are you paying for someone else's insurance?
PHILLIP: Coming up next, a longtime Democratic donor says that he switched sides because donating to Donald Trump got him access. What he reveals in this interview and what he says the Trump and the elites have in common, coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:39:06]
PHILLIP: Welcome back. Is Donald Trump a populist or a billionaire's billionaire? It's no secret that he's embraced Americas uber rich not only for their influence, but to help govern the entire country. And there is a new interview that pulls back the curtain on money and politics. This is a venture capitalist, a longtime Democratic donor, explaining why he is now a Trump supporter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHAMATH PALIHAPITIYA, VENTURE CAPITALIST: This is one thing I'll tell you about the Trump administration, which is totally different. I was a lifelong democrat, OK. I was a mega donor to the Democrats. You know, like dinner with Obama level donor, OK. I couldn't get a phone call returned from the White House to save my life.
You know, my wife runs a pharmaceutical business. And, you know, we wanted to make sure that the administration understood, like, all the implications for rare diseases and orphan drugs.
[10:40:01]
And the tariffs create a lot of uncertainty. We were able to talk to all of them. They were like, explain the issue, I want to understand it. So this is what's also totally different, which I really give them a lot of respect.
(END VIDEO CLIP) PHILLIP: So here's a question. Does this actually speak well of Democrats?
CARLSON: No.
ABDUL: No.
CARLSON: I mean, this is this is one of the reasons Donald Trump won this election, is because he is perceived as being accessible, and he actually is. I mean, President Biden hardly ever came to the microphone to talk to the press. Donald Trump talks too much to the press.
PHILLIP: But I mean, I'm talking about billionaires who want to just write a check and get invited to sit in front of the president at the Oval Office. Thats what he's saying. He was like, Obama didn't invite me to the Oval Office.
CARLSON: I was looking at this more big picture.
KOSTA: But he's also saying, I got them on the phone because they did a drastic tariff thing without checking with anybody. So that's kind of interesting that I got him on the phone because they -- up the whole economy.
PHILLIP: And also, it's like his wife, like, OK, his wife is affected. Yes. So are millions of people in this country.
ABDUL: What I want to know from this dude is that did you vote for Donald Trump? Because I've.
PHILLIP: I'm pretty sure he did. I'm pretty sure.
ABDUL: Because I've been trying to figure out, did he actually vote for Donald Trump? When did you make that transition? I agree with Gretchen. Once again, Donald Trump is accessible. And we are -- we should not act as if that people with money and access don't -- people with money and powerful people don't have access to the halls --- that's what lobbyists are. literally lobbyists, with all of the money, they have straight lines --
PHILLIP: According to this guy.
ABDUL: -- to the president or otherwise. He didn't have --
PHILLIP: He didn't get it.
ABDUL: That's just one guy. But the other billionaires, the other wealthy people did.
PHILLIP: He couldn't pay for it with Obama. I guess if you're in this environment in which voters are like populists and they want to stick it to --
ABDUL: They say they're populist. PHILLIP: They say they're populist, they want to stick it to the man, it just, it's not, it's not rational that this guy would then say, I can just call whoever I want. And Trump gets seen as the person who is for the everyman.
COLES: I actually think that Chamath is getting at a different point here, which is that, oddly, Obama and Biden were, both of them, were actually oddly resistant to the business community. And you would hear it time and again. And I remember taking at least one CEO into the White House, and they didn't really have anybody to meet him who could meet him on his level. And these are people who create jobs. They shouldn't be demonized. I'm not saying that billionaires should have more access than anybody else, although the history of America is about wealthy people having access to power, and this government is very clearly paid to play. But I do think that the previous Democratic administrations were not sufficiently business friendly, and that has come to serve them badly.
CARLSON: Exactly.
PHILLIP: With Elon, too.
CARLSON: The messaging to me, I was looking at it big picture. Democrats have a lot of reflecting to do, and this is just one other example of that. I mean, look, you have to be more accessible. You have to try and get to the populist base. And even if it's just a perception thing, even if you're not a billionaire.
COLES: But you also can't --
CARLSON: The perception is that Trump is accessible.
COLES: But you also can't cripple businesses with ridiculous regulation, which has been a Democrat fallback position for the last few years. And it's incredibly difficult to run a business. You know, you've got people who rely on you. Youve got changing circumstances, you've got global competition. And I think a lot of businesspeople felt that they got no support from the Democratic White House.
PHILLIP: I think that your point about accessibility is a good one, but I think it should be not just accessibility to the people who can write six and seven figure checks. I think that's the issue here is the idea that they said to a megadonor, thank you for your money, but you're not going to get special privileges here. I don't know. I mean, it feels like there should be a firewall in our government that says that that's OK.
KOSTA: I think a leader is allowed to not answer the phone for someone that is calling that has a vested personal interest that gives money.
ABDUL: Well, I think --
KOSTA: I don't know about you. I don't know about you. I don't ever answer my phone.
CARLSON: Well, if you want to get the megadonor back, you might answer.
PHILLIP: Coming up next, Michelle Obama speaks out about those divorce rumors after she skips out on a few notable events.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:49:20]
PHILLIP: Welcome back. Michelle Obama is getting a little picky about her calendar invites. Her husband famously went stag to Donald Trump's inauguration and to Jimmy Carter's funeral. And that's led the internet to go all Neil Diamond and insist that their love is on the rocks. But on her new podcast, she is hitting back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER U.S. FIRST LADY: We, as women, I think we struggle with, like, disappointing people. Yes. You know, I mean, so much so that this year people were, you know, they couldn't even fathom that I was making a choice for myself, that they had to assume that my husband and I are divorcing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I mean, those rumors were going wild.
[10:50:01]
Maybe, may or may not have been just about the appearances, but her point is, I can do what I want. I'm a grown woman.
CARLSON: This is totally sexist. I mean, sorry, this is totally sexist. They would never do this to a man and suddenly say that they're going to be going on -- when Trump hasn't done the traditional things as president that other presidents have done, they didn't suddenly say he's getting divorced from Melania. I mean, there were other reasons they were saying that. But not that.
PHILLIP: Melania is virtually absent.
COLES: -- that they're getting divorced. There's been tons of speculation that she's just working out a contract, right, Melania. And that she doesn't live there anymore.
CARLSON: But that's not, but it wasn't because he didn't attend the inauguration that suddenly the rumors started. That's my point. Michelle Obama didn't attend the inauguration. She didn't go to Jimmy Carter's funeral, and suddenly she's divorcing Barack Obama. It's like, what?
KOSTA: So those are those aren't, like, killer events. You know what I mean? It's not like they're going to the Super Bowl.
ABDUL: I'm actually surprised she didn't go to Carter's funeral.
COLES: Normally I'm completely with you, and I think you're such a role model when it comes to women's rights. On this one, I'm not sure I do agree with you, actually. And I was very struck by how diminished Barack Obama looked at the inauguration without Michelle at his side, that the two of them together as a couple felt incredibly powerful, and him on his own, he felt slight. He wasn't in the most senior position because the Clintons were ahead of him and the Bushs were ahead of him, just in terms of the seating arrangement. And I thought he looked diminished without her. And I thought it was sad she didn't go to Jimmy Carter's funeral.
PHILLIP: I mean, just to play devil's advocate, isn't that her using her power, that she's saying I'm not going to give this legitimacy by showing up? Thats that's what she wanted to say.
ABDUL: I think the inauguration is a little different. I actually didn't expect Michelle Obama to go to the inauguration simply because of comments that she's made in the past.
When it came to Carter's funeral, though -- and Michelle Obama is just not any person. She's just not any woman. She's a former first lady of the United States. And to have the first lady of the United States decide that she wouldn't go to a member of her own party's funeral, like he was a president, I thought that that was very different. And it doesn't take away -- for me it doesn't take away her agency to say that, well, you know what, Michelle Obama should have gone.
PHILLIP: Did you see how close together they had to sit next to each other at that funeral. It's very. And Obama was caught in a conversation.
CARLSON: With Donald Trump.
ABDUL: And I do agree, a man would not, a male, a man would not have that same expectation.
CARLSON: But we're debating two different things here. We're debating that because she didn't go to these events, suddenly divorce rumors started. I'm saying that's sexist. The separate issue that we're debating is should she have gone to these events, separate and apart from this. So, you know, to your point, I'm saying that the divorce rumors are sexist because you wouldn't say that about a man. And I proved that with Trump.
PHILLIP: All right, everyone. Coming up next, the panel's unpopular opinions, what they are not afraid to say out loud.
But first, a programing note. Don't miss this week's "Whole Story." Donie O'Sullivan dives into the new world of American extremism. It airs Sunday, 8:00 p.m., on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:58:01]
PHILLIP: We're back, and it's time for your unpopular opinions. You each have 30s to tell us yours. Melik, you're up. ABDUL: The great magnolia state of Mississippi is the best state in
the entire union. Not only do we have the Jackson State University and the sonic boom of the south and the best catfish in the nation.
PHILLIP: The catfish is good. I'll give you that. Go ahead, Gretchen.
CARLSON: Its Easter coming up, and I hate Peeps. I'm so sorry. They just rot in your stomach. They're stretchy, and they got a bunch of sugar on them. I'm all for marshmallows when it comes to s'mores. No more Peeps for me. Don't put them in my Easter basket, thank you very much. But I did find out the company that makes Peeps also makes Hot Tamales. Hand them over.
PHILLIP: Interesting. It's weird to be pro Peeps and Hot Tamales in my view. But anyway, go ahead.
COLES: Well, I'm giving it up for tariffs because my favorite story at "The Daily Beast" this week is about how we sent two reporters, Michael Daly and Amethyst Martinez, to Trump Tower's store, his own store, where it turns out almost everything, including my favorite item, the Trump Bear, who comes complete with a little white toweling robe, is actually going to be slapped with a 125 percent tariff. So Trump is tariffing himself.
PHILLIP: I am shocked, absolutely shocked.
KOSTA: My unpopular opinion is more just an opinion, and that's I believe all authors should read their audio books as I read my audio book for my book that's out now called "Lucky Loser, Adventures in Tennis and Comedy." And this is my story because I wanted to be a professional tennis player, and I tried, and I failed miserably. I got to 864 in the world. I made $11,000 over four years. But then somehow pivoted to comedy?
(LAUGHTER)
KOSTA: I don't know. Listen to the book.
PHILLIP: Wait, 864 out of like hundreds of millions of people, it ain't bad.
KOSTA: Correct, correct. Thank you, Abby.
COLES: You're a loser. You're a total loser.
KOSTA: I'm a total loser.
COLES: You're a loser.
(LAUGHTER)
KOSTA: I think that's exactly.
PHILLIP: Everyone, thank you so much. And thank you for watching "TABLE FOR FIVE". You can catch me every weeknight at 10:00 p.m. eastern with our News Night Roundtable and anytime on your favorite social media platforms, X, Instagram, and TikTok. But in the meantime, CNN's coverage continues right now.
