Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Event/Special

Pope Francis Reaches Final Resting Place As 250,000 Attend Funeral Service; Pope Francis' Coffin Driven Through The Streets Of Rome Greeted By Thousands Of Mourners. Aired 6-7a ET

Aired April 26, 2025 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:00:00]

GIOVANNI BATTISTA RE, ITALIAN CARDINAL (through translator): Gracious Father, we commend to your mercy Pope Francis, whom you made Successor of Peter and Shepherd of the Church, a fearless preacher of your word and a faithful minister of the divine mysteries.

Welcome him, we pray, into your heavenly dwelling place, to enjoy eternal glory with all your chosen ones. We give you thanks, Lord, for all the blessings that in your goodness you bestowed upon him for the good of your people.

Grant us the comfort of faith and the strength of hope.

To you Father, source of life, through Christ, the conqueror of death, in the life-giving Spirit, be all honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Pope Francis will shortly be brought back into the Basilica.

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VACITCAN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. We are nearly at the end of the liturgy now. We're going to have some more sung prayers.

[06:05:06]

The choir will sing may the angels lead you into paradise. May the martyrs come and welcome you and take you to the holy city, the new and eternal Jerusalem. But we can see the cardinals filing out as this very moving and profound liturgy comes to an end.

COOPER: While the service here is almost done, there will now be a processional Pope Francis body being taken out of Vatican City. And this extraordinary thing that we are about to witness, this funeral procession through the streets of Rome.

LAMB: Yes, the procession is going to be really extraordinary. This hasn't been seen for 100 years. The coffin casket will be taken into the basilica, prepared, and then taken out of a side entrance, an exit in the Vatican near the Casa Santa Marta, where Pope Francis lived, and will process through the streets of Rome.

And that procession will go past the Coliseum, the place where the first Christians were martyred, going through some very profound.

COOPER: It'll also pass through the. The first Jesuit church built in Rome.

LAMB: Absolutely fitting for the first Jesuit pope that he will go past that church, the Jesuit.

COOPER: The tomb that Pope Francis requested has already been installed in the basilica.

LAMB: That's right. It's been prepared. It's a very simple tomb. It simply has Franciscus on it. And above the tomb is the pectoral cross that Pope Francis wore, an image of that. That cross had the Good Shepherd depicted on it. And it was the cross that Pope Francis wore in Argentina. And as pope.

COOPER: The procession through the streets of Rome should take about 30 minutes or so.

LAMB: That's right. Well, the Vatican say that the Pope's coffin will go at walking pace. So it's estimated about 30 minutes, but it might take a little bit longer.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You can imagine, for the hundreds of thousands, up to a million are expected of people who will be standing, waiting just to catch a glimpse, one last moment to pay their respects, to say goodbye to a pope who meant so many, so much to so many people before he is finally laid to rest.

LAMB: You can see that Pope Francis coffin is about to be raised and taken by the pallbearers into the basilica.

COOPER: And you can hear the crowd now starting to applaud as they are watching this as you are at home.

LAMB: I think the spontaneous applause is quite significant. You don't often see that in liturgies and masses. And I think it speaks to the connection that Pope Francis had with people, that people felt that love for him and that sense that here is a holy and good person. And that's often in the church's understanding. The fact that the people feel that is a sense of confirmation of his goodness, if you like.

WARD: The word we heard over and over again from people in the crowds was gratitude. Profound gratitude felt.

[06:10:00]

LAMB: We can see on the coffin there's the symbol of the Society of Jesus, the Jesuit IHS is inscribed on the coffin, of course, Francis, the first Jesuit pope.

COOPER: As many as 250,000 people here in St. Peter's Square watching this. And we'll soon see how many more people lining the streets of Rome to pay their final respects. People waving goodbye, waving their hands in the air.

Let's go to Ben Wedeman first though, while he's still in the crowd. OK. Yes.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Stand by.

COOPER: Just extraordinary images from here in St. Peter's Square as the crowd has now seen Pope Francis casket being brought back into the basilica where it will be prepared for the procession to -- through the streets of Rome to Pope Francis final resting place.

Some people are starting to leave through, but so many are staying. Not wanting to leave, not wanting to go from this incredible spot.

WARD: I think whether or not you are a believer or a Catholic, the astonishing beauty of this event, of many of the values that Pope Francis stood for and embodied, which really transcended the Catholic Church, were fully on display during this historic funeral.

COOPER: And there you see Pope Francis being brought through the basilica one last time.

LAMB: That's right. And the coffin was brought into the basilica under an image of Jesus, sorry, resurrected Christ. So very powerful that the coffin goes under that image of the resurrection, which is of course the hope and faith of Christians, Catholics, that death is not the end, that there is the world to come.

And it's very powerful to see the coffin of Pope Francis processing through the lines of cardinals as they accompany him on his final journey.

COOPER: Ben Wedeman is in the crowd here in St. Peter's Square.

[06:15:03]

Ben, what are the people around you doing now?

WEDEMAN: Well, some people are leaving because they also want to be lined along the road as the procession with Pope Francis' coffin makes its way to the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore. Now we have speaking with people here, I mean, we're joined by Paul Lunter from Slovakia.

Paul, you were telling me earlier that Pope Francis invited people firm in the church but open to the world. What do you mean by that?

PAUL LUTNER, SLOVAKIA: It means that we as members of the Church are living in this world. And our task, our aim, is to make this world better place. It's -- how we are present in the world.

WEDEMAN: All right, thank you very much, Paul. I think we're going to go back to Anderson because the coffin is now on its way towards that funeral procession.

COOPER: You're looking at live images from inside the basilica. Let's talk a little bit about the route that Pope Francis casket is going to be taking now. It's not going to be coming through the front of the basilica. It's going to be leading -- leaving through a side exit.

LAMB: Yes, it's a side entrance to the Vatican near to where he lived in the Santa Marta. So it'll come out there.

COOPPER: He'll actually. The gate that he'll leave through is actually right by Casa Santa Marta, where he lives. So he'll actually be passing his residence for one final time.

LAMB: Yes, that's right. That was his residence in the Vatican for 12 years. He decided to live there rather than in the Apostolic Palace where popes had lived before. He wanted to live at the Santa Marta because he wanted to be close to people and he didn't want to live isolated in papal palace. And it will -- the coffin will go past that Santa Marta for one last time. They go out to the Corsa Vittorio Manueli.

COOPER: Let's listen in to the bell.

I mean, these truly are some of the most extraordinary images that you will ever see in a live event like this.

WARD: It feels like the whole of Rome has come to a standstill. Certainly most of the roads all around the city center have been cordoned off and everybody just pausing to absorb this moment. The solemnity of the bells, the historic nature of what they've just witnessed and what they're about to witness with this procession towards Santa Maria Maggiore, which, as we've said, is not something that has been seen in many hundreds of years.

[06:20:10]

COOPER: There are, I believe, seven other popes who are buried at that basilica. But again, it has not been seen in our lifetime.

LAMB: No. And Pope Francis was very clear he wants to be buried there at Santa Maria Maggiore. He had a very strong personal connection with that basilica. He used go to pray in front of ancient icon of the Virgin Mary before and after his foreign trips, that icon at the basilica. So it was a very important place for him.

WARD: You really can feel the shift in mood having been here all throughout the week. Initially, there were a lot of people who were already in Rome, who were tourists, who were curious, who wanted to mark history. Today had a very feeling. Today was about honoring, was about gratitude, and it was about love. So many images I saw throughout the crowds of people in profound devotion and deep prayer.

COOPER: There's also been such a sense of community over the last several days of people just spending time in the square, talking with each other and meeting each other, and a kind of a welcoming spirit among all the people, kind of asking, where are you from? When did you arrive? And talking about Pope Francis.

LAMB: It's always been one of the striking things for me covering the Vatican is events like these in St. Peter's Square, where you see the universality of the church, people from totally different cultures and countries, but coming together around a shared faith. And it's very much a profound sense of communion amongst people. It's something we've seen very strong. COOPER: And while we have seen in many tears and there is sadness for

his death, his passing, for so many people of faith here, there is a joy in their belief of what awaits him.

WARD: Well, Pope Francis talked about this, the idea that death is a new beginning, essentially. And for people of profound faith, it's less about sadness, I think, than reverence.

COOPER: He said, it is not the end of everything. It is the beginning of something, a new beginning.

LAMB: And although the service today was very solemn, was very somber and prayerful, I didn't find it a sad service. I thought it was very hopeful. And there were the spontaneous moments of applause, and I think that's what Pope Francis would have wanted.

WARD: And I think we really saw that in Cardinal Re's homily, which brought to life this extraordinary spiritual leader, touching on the biographical, the legacy, but also, as you had talked about, Christopher, for the personality, the force of personality, the humor, the warmth, the humility.

COOPER: Kim Daniels, what did you make of the service again, I'm just struck by the sense of joy that I have heard from so many people in this crowd who have been watching.

KIM DANIELS, GEORGETOWN DIRECTO OF INITIATIVE ON CATHOLIC SOCIAL THOUGHT AND PUBLIC LIFE: I thought the same thing, Anderson. I saw joy, I saw hope. I was really struck by the parallels between Pope Francis coffin sitting there seemingly solitary and set apart in front of that icon, the Salus Popoli Romani icon, and the parallels between that and when he stood alone in St. Peter's Square at the beginning of the COVID pandemic.

And then he said, be not afraid to everybody. And here we heard, hold high the torch of hope. I think it's real message of hope, real message of resisting fear. He supported the people then. The people are supporting him now.

COOPER: Katie McGrady I am fascinated to see what we are about to witness, which is this extraordinary, never seen before in our lifetime, certainly never televised, this procession to the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore.

KATIE MCGRADY, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: It really is very striking, Anderson, especially because it looks like, if I'm seeing this correctly, the coffin of Pope Francis is in a popemobile. There was a lot of wondering of what kind of vehicle it would be carried in. And it looks like they've kind of rigged up a pickup truck to look like the back of a popemobile. I don't know if that's what's going to be driven through the streets, perhaps not.

But I'm very, very struck by it. And it is incredibly historical that he's being taken away from St. Peter's Basilica to, yes, another papal basilica in the city of Rome.

[06:25:04]

It's anytime we've seen a procession, it's been the other direction to St. Peter's but this is away from it. I think we're truly entering into that sedevacante feeling while at the same time being very grateful and hopeful for his life.

COOPER: Before this procession begins, I do want to get some news out there. We're learning that President Trump and Ukrainian President Zelenskyy had a meeting before the funeral the began this morning. We have some brand new photos from that encounter. Showing them to you on the left hand side of your screen. They are really startling images.

The White House describes the meeting as, quote, a very productive discussion. We don't know many details about actually what the tone and tenor of it was. Another photo shows Trump and Zelenskyy speaking with France's President Emmanuel Macron, as well as the British Prime Minister, Keir Starmer. Zelenskyy had previously expressed he would be willing to meet with President Trump when both leaders would be in Italy. However, President Trump would not share with reporters if he planned to do so.

This morning's meeting is the first time the two leaders have come face to face since that February Oval Office meeting where Trump berated Zelenskyy for not demonstrating enough gratitude for American support in their Ukraine war. But clear so, I mean, these images are extraordinary.

WARD: Sitting on these chairs in the basilica. And what a fitting tribute to the legacy of Pope Francis who was so passionate about peace, about ending conflict, given the fractious nature of the relationship between President Trump and President Zelenskyy over the course of the last few months, to see them sitting there together.

And just as well, as you had mentioned, Christopher, the offering of the peace, you had this moment where all these world leaders who are so often at loggerheads were shaking hands with each other, very much in spirit with the message of Pope Francis.

COOPER: Tim Naftali, these images, Tim, extraordinary two chairs drawn up in St. Peter's Basilica.

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, we've heard about how Pope Francis tried to bring together the rival groups in South Sudan. He made a mission of trying to heal wounds around the world. He was the first pope of the global south. And for this meeting between President Trump and President Zelenskyy to happen on the day of Francis, his funeral is a beautiful sign of hope. What comes of it, we won't know. We don't know.

But the very fact that these two men, after such heated words, are willing to speak again in the shadow of the late pontiff is a moment to be remembered and a reminder of how global these papal funerals have become since Paul VI's funeral in 1978, which was the first to be televised and the first to occur outside of St. Peter's.

COOPER: Now we're seeing the Popemobile with the casket of Pope Francis now starting to leave from the basilica at the start of this historic procession, which no one has seen before in modern times.

LAMB: I think it's very striking that decided to transport the coffin in the Popemobile. There are so many times I saw the Pope and the Popemobile greeting the crowds. And how fitting that his final journey is in the Popemobile, where he will be seen by so many people in Rome.

COOPER: Now, Pope Francis is about to leave through the gates right here.

LAMB: Yes, this is the --

COOPER: Just past the place where he has been living.

LAMB: That's right.

COOPER: To the right is Casa Santa Marta.

LAMB: Yes, that's right. He's leaving from the Porta Perugina and coming out now for that procession. Already seeing people lining the streets as the Popemobile comes through.

WARD: And as you mentioned, it was just six days ago we saw the Pope in the Popemobile on Easter Sunday. It feels so much longer given all the events of the past week. And there was such a state of shock for so many because after seeing him come out, deliver his blessing, get into the Pope mobile, it was such a shock.

COOPER: And Father Beck, I'm so struck by how this Pope wanted and allowed people to see his frailty, allowed people to see as he declined, as his body began to fail him.

[06:30:04]

Others in the past have not shown themselves in wheel chairs, this pope did. Up until the end, he was showing himself in front of the public, and even now we -- people were able to see him in death, laying in state in St. Peter's basilica. And now, we see this, his final journey to be laid to rest.

EDWARD BECK, ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIEST: That's right, Anderson, he wasn't afraid to reveal his frailty. Remember, he was a pope who preached often that life is important no matter what, especially for the young, the aged, those who are dispossessed. And this most striking image for me of this whole funeral was that solitary, simple coffin with the book of the gospels being blown by the wind, which I choose to interpret as the breath of the Spirit.

And to me, that said it all, that this man tried to say that this is what Christianity and Catholicism is about, living the gospel. It's not legalism. He preached to his clerics, don't make more burdens for people. Set them free by the word of the gospel. And here, he was set free by that gospel even in his final resting.

I mean, he said, to get out of the sacristies, out of the churches, let the breath of the Spirit blow where it will. And I thought that striking image of that simple coffin that looks so small in the midst of all of that grandeur, with that book of gospels to me summarized the life of this man who wasn't afraid to carry his cross until the end, to show his frailty and weakness, as you said, because he believed in life from conception to death to natural death. And this was an image of that, I believe. Pope Francis coffin continues on its route.

COOPER: Just talk a little bit about where the pope is going to be passing by, the Largo, Argentina, the first church of the Jesuits as well.

LAMB: Yes, that's right. He'll be passing that famous church where the first church of the Jesuits linking, of course, to Pope Francis as the first Jesuit pope past the Largo, Argentina, through ancient Rome, up to the Colosseum, where so many of the first Christians were martyred.

And then along the Via Labicana, the Via Merulana, and to the basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore. Quite fitting that Pope Francis going by those sites where early Christians were martyred. Many people see Francis as seeking to recover the spirit of early Christianity, where the church was very much an underground community.

Francis has sought to recapture that spirit during his pontificate, to take the Catholic Church back to its roots in many ways. And we will see -- we're seeing that now with this journey through Rome.

COOPER: Elise Allen is also joining us, senior correspondent for "Crux" now. Elise, what are your thoughts on what we have witnessed, the mass we saw and now this incredible procession.

ELISE ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: You know, I think this mass today is obviously a very historic event, especially, you know, and I think especially Pope Francis has a real ability, even in death, right, to bring people together. And that's what we've seen today. So many people, so many heads of state, so many interfaith leaders coming together to pay their final respects to him.

Such an extraordinary man who is beloved for so many due to the message that he preached consistently, and which Cardinal Ray, you know, shed light on today a message of mercy and of joy, ultimately, you know that Christians shouldn't be sad. The message of the gospel is the message of joy.

And I think that was such an extraordinary, you know, message that he put out consistently throughout his papacy. And he's shown his ability, also his emphasis on dialogue, you know, and building bridges. And I think that's something that we've seen today in the sheer number of people who have come out, and the collection of international leaders that are here, and also, again, this extraordinary meeting that just happened, we know with pope -- with President Zelenskyy and President Donald Trump. Pope Francis, even in death, is still trying to build those bridges.

[06:35:00]

COOPER: Yes, you can see the crowds lining the road there. I understand we have an image from East Timor where more than 90 percent of the population is Catholic, which Pope Francis actually visited, I believe, either the first pope to visit. He visited a number of places that others had not. There, you see, on the left hand side of the screen, some images from East Timor.

LAMB: As I was on the trip with the pope when he went to East Timor, and he celebrated a mass there that was attended by half the population. It was absolutely extraordinary. The turnout and welcome he got was very warm in East Timor, one of the most Catholic countries in the world.

COOPER: It is one of the remarkable things about this pope that he chose to go to so many places that other popes hadn't, even though they may not have had large populations, may not have been significant in a global geopolitical sense.

LAMB: Yes, he was the pope of the peripheries. I mean, some people used to ask, well, why isn't he making trips to the traditional Catholic countries? But he always wanted to go to those places that perhaps there weren't many Catholics, and encourage those communities. He saw that the peripheries of the church for him were the center, and that's why he decided to make so many of those visits throughout his pontificate. I was with him when he went to East Timor, also, Papua New Guinea, the furthest Roman pontiff has traveled from Rome.

COOPER: Well, just listen to the response of people on the road.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: One last opportunity for residents of Rome and visitors to get a glimpse of Pope Francis' casket. The popemobile, as they head to the basilica Santa Maria Maggiore.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And you can hear just the clapping, the cheering, as we were saying before, the mood is quite joyful. It's one of gratitude, and a chance to say a final goodbye.

LAMB: And joy was very important for Pope Francis. He wrote an important document called the "Joy of the Gospel", and he used to say, Christians shouldn't go around with faces like sourpusses. He wanted people to be joyful, that faith was a joyful thing.

COOPER: I want to check in with Barbie Nadeau, who is at the basilica where Pope Francis' body will be interred. Barbie, what are you seeing there?

BARBIE LATZA NADEAU, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A group of poor people, homeless people, and a group of transgender women who live in a convent here in Rome, come out onto the steps of the basilica. They are the ones Pope Francis has chosen in life to welcome him into this church here in the center of Rome. And it's just an electric situation here.

The people here all have been singing along with the -- with the funeral songs which are being broadcast on these large monitors. They're about 20 deep all the way along the boulevard that's going to be leading up to the church. And this is really one of the most multi- cultural neighborhoods in central Rome.

And you see that reflected in the crowds. You've got nuns and priests from various orders from all over the world, but you've also got groups of migrants, you've got groups of Rome's somewhat limited ethnic communities, and they are all here to welcome the pope into their church. I was talking to a couple of parishioners earlier, and they were just so humbled by the fact that he will be here.

And the idea that his tomb here, undecorated, doesn't even say pontifex or pope on it, just Franciscus. It just means so much. And they can't wait until the church is open back up again to them to visit him. We've also got so many groups of young people who were here for the Jubilee of the Adolescents, hoping to see the canonization, and they're here too, singing along and praying. It's just electric. It's just amazing and incredibly emotional.

COOPER: And Clarissa Ward, you were just in a prison in Rome where the pope had visited.

WARD: Yes, you heard Barbie there talking about the poor and the needy who are waiting to welcome Pope Francis on the steps. And this was such a focus of his papacy, of today's funeral as well, this idea of mercy. We went to the Rebibbia Women's Prison, where last year, at the age of 87, in a wheelchair, the pope engaged in this century's old pre-Easter foot washing tradition, washing the feet of these individual female inmates one-by-one.

[06:40:00]

And we spoke to this woman who said this was a life-changing event for us to feel seen. And Pope Francis had that ability to make people on the periphery, as you said, Christopher, the pope of the periphery. That is geographical, but also metaphorical, that he was able to make people feel seen, to feel loved, and to believe that they could be redeemed.

COOPER: It is block after block after block. I mean, tens of thousands of people who have been waiting now for hours to catch a glimpse of this motorcade. Christopher, I mean, you've covered him for so long. What is it like for you to see this?

LAMB: Well, I find it quite emotional and moving to see this scene, because having covered Francis on the popemobile, having covered him on his trips abroad, seeing him so many times --

COOPER: I mean, you saw him alive in this square --

LAMB: Yes, I saw --

COOPER: Last Sunday.

LAMB: Less than a week ago, I saw him greeting people from the popemobile. And it's hard to believe that it's less than a week ago. I mean, what is striking is that even in death, Francis wanted to maintain or wants to maintain a connection with people. And this idea that death is not the end, that there can still be a relationship with someone after they've died.

I think this is what we're seeing playing out here, and I am -- I am struck by the crowds that are clapping, the sense of joy, that in death, there can also be hope.

WARD: You heard in that homily from Cardinal Ray, he said of Pope Francis, he wanted to be close to everyone. And so, it seems fitting that he should have this procession, this historic procession, as we've said, past hundreds of thousands of people who have lined the streets of Rome.

COOPER: And Katie McGrady, as Pope Francis, as Christopher was alluding to Pope Francis writing back in February, that death is not the end of everything. It is the beginning of something, something new.

KATIE PREJEAN MCGRADY, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: He certainly, I think, understood his own mortality and frailty and, as many have said, hasn't been hiding it. I'm particularly struck in this moment that in this one final farewell, there's that applause, and I'm hearing some viva il papas, as people are crying out for that final time.

And even in those days of his suffering, he was reminding us that suffering has a greater point. We offer it up to the Lord, that even in our frailty, something good can be done. And even if we're able to show our weakness, it's in our weakness that the Lord makes us stronger. And so, this moment is at the same time that it is triumphant and that people are saying their final goodbye and thanking him.

I think it's also a reminder that this is how we all go out in a coffin, in the back of a vehicle, driven to our final resting place. And so, it's a really profound and striking thing that we haven't seen for a very long time.

COOPER: Well, to your point, Katie, you know, he spoke throughout his life about the people who are pushed aside, shunted away, the elderly, the disabled, not put in the forefront. They're pushed off to the side or kind of kept hidden. He did not. That's not something he did in his life to other people, and it's not something he did with himself as he -- as his health started to fade, as he began to get close to death.

I mean, even up until the very end, he was showing himself, even with a nasal cannula and in a wheelchair, and could barely speak. He wanted people to see him.

MCGRADY: You know, it just occurred to me that St. Peter's Square has a capacity of what? About 250,000? Not everybody could have gone to St. Peter's Square today, even if they'd wanted to. But yet, as he's driving through the literal margins of Rome, anyone could have come out to see him. He's literally going to the margins in his final moments of death.

And from the jump, that was Pope Francis' project. And I think in these final moments that he's still doing that, really does -- it just reminds us of what this church should be all about. It is a certainly a profound testament of his in this final moment.

[06:45:00]

COOPER: Not sure exactly where he is at this point. In -- it looks like -- is that the Piazza Venezia?

LAMB: He's just gone past the Piazza Venezia, now approaching the Colosseum, going past the Fori Imperiali, through the sites of ancient Rome and approaching the Colosseum.

COOPER: These are sites that would be familiar to anybody who's been a tourist in Rome, the Piazza Venezia, this is the site of a huge monument, and obviously, the Colosseum coming up. Do we know at the basilica, will there be a service? The actual burial will not be the -- will not be televised.

LAMB: It won't be. But there will be a service that it will not be televised live. You can see the Colosseum approaching now in front of us.

COOPER: And of course, in the days to come, as once Pope Francis has been laid to rest, the attention of cardinals will slowly turn to the conclave.

LAMB: That's right. And I thought that Cardinal Ray's sermon feeds into that in some ways, because it was a very strong endorsement of the priorities of Pope Francis, the ministry of Francis, his focus on the poor, his focus on the environment, his focus on interfaith --

COOPER: You think he was sending a message to the cardinals assembled?

LAMB: I think he was saying there's no turning back or don't turn back.

WARD: And I believe the cardinals are expected to meet on Monday morning.

LAMB: That's correct. The cardinals will start their meetings then. They already have been meeting, but the focus of it has been, I think, primarily, on sort of arranging events leading up to the funeral, but we're going to have a lot more cardinals in Rome. There's 135 cardinal electors, but there's also the retired cardinals who take part.

And tomorrow, cardinals will celebrate mass. They usually do so in their own churches. Each cardinal has a designated church in Rome, and so expect them out --

COOPER: Look at these crowds. I mean, this is just extraordinary.

WARD: The closer you get to the basilica where he'll be laid to rest, you notice the crowds are getting thicker and thicker and thicker.

COOPER: This is just by the Colosseum now. You see the Colosseum obviously there --

LAMB: Yes -- COOPER: To your left. Again, this is something no one, none of us have

seen before. A procession like this with the pope through the streets of Rome, through past the Colosseum. It is -- it is an extraordinary moment in history. The extraordinary -- extraordinarily emotional moment to see that all this, all these people from all over Italy and elsewhere, standing on this glorious day to see this man that they so love.

LAMB: If there's never been a funeral procession of a pope in a popemobile.

COOPER: Elisabetta Pique, you have known this man for so long and covered him as a -- as a reporter, but also a -- he has been a friend. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are.

ELISABETTA PIQUE, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Well, I think really this farewell, and the idea to choose the popemobile now for this procession, I think this confirms that this pope was the pope of surprise. As his pope -- this popemobile was his last surprise for the people. And the message of -- a message of hope really.

Because he didn't want evidently a black, you know, a funeral vehicle. And I'm sure he chose this popemobile, this white popemobile, to make -- remember people, that there is hope and not to think about that, and these images that we are seeing now, all these people -- yes, of course, it's sad, but they are applauding him and thanking him because with this popemobile, he went to the peripheries of the world.

[06:50:00]

He went to Lampedusa, as Cardinal Ray, remember, in his beautiful homily, he went to Iraq, to an Iraq -- I was in -- that trip. He went to Mosul, to this Mosul destroyed. And so, giving hope, and I think really, these images are his last message of hope, that peace is possible and peace is possible. We saw that image, unbelievable in the basilica of St. Peter of Trump speaking with Zelenskyy like in a confession after what we saw what happened some weeks ago in the -- in the White House.

So, I think really it's amazing. It could have -- it could have been better this last farewell. It's true he wanted a simple -- a simple funeral. It wasn't at the end so simple because anyway, we have, you know, all the -- all the -- all the scenography, all the very traditional rites of the Vatican that were also beautiful.

But I think this procession out of the Vatican to his favorite basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore, in this kind of popemobile that we saw then well, in Timor, as we saw well in the state, we saw everywhere going around. And so, it's like you imagine -- you can imagine that he's still there alive and not in a coffin, really. And so, I think was really amazing. The last surprise of the pope of surprises.

COOPER: And you have no doubt that he chose this vehicle?

PIQUE: Absolutely. I think this pope was -- I think he was aware and I think, well, his doctors said in the last days, he was aware that this was the end. And then he was aware, for instance, this last effort that also was mentioned by Cardinal Ray in his homily, this last effort that he did last Sunday to give the blessing urbi et orbi, and then nobody would have expect those are the few that -- with the popemobile, and I was there like priest, Lamb, and I saw him passing in front of the Sala Stampa.

And I went there and I shouted at him, padre jorge(ph)! And he -- you know, padre Jorge, father, when he passed very near, and in all the trips that I had the privilege to cover, to go with him, he would -- he would recognize me in the middle of thousands of people because he would connect with the -- with his look.

But he, in that last popemobile, you could see that he wasn't well. He was -- with his look like almost absent, when I shout father Jorge, he didn't -- he didn't -- maybe he didn't, of course, he didn't recognize he was in another -- you could see that he was fading out. And so, really I think this now -- this surprise of again the popemobile, I have no doubts that was his decision. He wouldn't have wanted to do this last trip in a black vehicle as a funeral --

COOPER: Yes, I want to go to Barbie Nadeau, who is outside the basilica where this procession is heading. The crowd must know that, that he is getting closer, Barbie.

NADEAU: Oh, yes, no, he is seconds really away from us here. The crowd is just going wild. Everybody's got their cameras up in position. You've got the scarves, though now at the gate of the basilica, the front-door of the basilica. Along the left side, you've got this group of homeless people and poor people and the transgender women that he wanted there.

They're all waiting for him too. You've got the priest now walking out. They've set up a table in front of the basilica where they're going to be putting the coffin. So, we're expecting any -- he's passing us. You can hear the crowd. It's just going crazy here as he's slowing down the last bit of the motorcade that's accompanying him, is coming here.

There's a lot of security, as you can imagine. You know, it's the crowds here, and I'm seeing so many nuns and priests and kids. There are so many kids here, young people who are just crying and emotional and saying the rosary. And you've got all these nuns taking selfies with the pope behind them. It's a moment here. You can hear the crowd, you can hear the crowd welcome him.

COOPER: Let's listen in.

NADEAU: Wow. It's --

COOPER: Let's listen in to just a little bit of the sound of the bells and the crowd.

[06:55:00]

(BELL RINGING) COOPER: I was at this basilica yesterday when they brought that icon

out. Christopher, can you explain the significance of it?

LAMB: Yes, so, it is an icon of the virgin Mary, a very ancient one, it's called the Salus Populi Romani, and it's linked to the health and the protection of the Roman people. And it is an icon that Pope Francis used to pray in front of before and after his foreign trips. I think he felt very much that his life was under the protection of the virgin Mary, and that's why he loved to pray at that icon.

COOPER: Many of those who were invited to be there are perhaps not people who would ordinarily be invited to a moment like this.

LAMB: Yes, it's been organized, understood by the wishes of Pope Francis that the poorest in Rome will be here to welcome Francis at the basilica. And I mean --

COOPER: Such an extraordinary thing for him to think of, to be taken from outside here in St. Peter's Square, where the elite of the world, the world's leaders, the monarchs of the world, were gathered, brought into Rome itself and welcomed by the poorest, by those on the margins of society.

LAMB: Well, this is the upside down logic of Christian teaching that Francis wanted to emphasize time and again. And this was really what his ministry was all about, and his witness was all about.

COOPER: The coffin being shown, the top of it has markings for the Jesuits, yes?

LAMB: Yes, I can see the IHS logo or emblem, I should say, of the society of Jesus, the Jesuits, a religious order in the Catholic Church, which Pope Francis was a member of. It's a religious order that I'm sure many viewers will know of. They run schools, universities, but they also have a particular missionary charism and ethos to go out to the margins and the peripheries of the world.

WARD: And this is now the last time we will see his coffin.

LAMB: Yes, that's right, the final rite of burial is going to be in private. And then it's the final time we will see it before it is entombed in the basilica.