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CNN Live Event/Special

Now: Pope Francis Laid to Rest In Rome Basilica; Trump Meets With Zelenskyy On Sidelines Of Pope's Funeral; Francis Remembered As Pope Among The People; Conclave To Select Next Pope Begins Within Weeks. Aired 7-8a ET

Aired April 26, 2025 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:00:00]

(Live Coverage of the Funeral of Pope Francis)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Father Beck has been with us all morning. This will be the last we have -- we'll see of Pope Francis in his casket.

EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGION CONTRIBUTOR Looking at these images, and I realized that we really have lost a giant, and we can only hope that whoever follows him can follow somewhat in those footsteps. I was so struck at how the themes of this funeral over and over again, accentuated the shepherd. This pope was so intent on changing the image of the papacy from this regal, monarchical position to one of pastor.

He called himself the Bishop of Rome first and foremost. He was a minister of people. And he called his priests and his bishops to be that. And when they weren't, he would excoriate them. We remember those Christmas homilies where he called them airport bishops who are flying around. Don't do that. Or peacock priests. No, he said, your job is to be shepherds and servants of the people. And we heard the psalm, The Lord is My Shepherd. We heard the Gospel of John, feed my sheep. And this is what this man did.

[07:05:40]

And I think that image is so important because it changes the notion of how we look at the church and hopefully how the world looks at the church. Now, you cannot deny that there's something regal about this funeral. I mean, it is the Vatican after all. But the simple touches that Francis wanted included speak volumes I think about who he was and that legacy must be continued if we are to be a church of authenticity and continue to speak to the needs of people.

COOPER: And Katie McGrady, were seeing the icon that Pope Francis so often prayed before. We also just saw two children going up, laying flowers inside the Basilica.

KATIE PREJEAN MCGRADY, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: When Pope Francis would go on his journeys, whether it was just a simple pop out visit or a larger journey, like when he went to Iraq, the first pope to do so, he would visit this image and he would leave roses, a basket of roses. Two weeks ago today, he visited Saint Mary Major, and he just visited that same image one last time. And children, the young and the vulnerable and the weak, who must be cared for, offered those same roses on his behalf.

And, you know, Father Beck said, there were so many particular things that he was showing us in his pontificate, and he's still showing them to us right now. I mean, I'm nearly on the verge of tears seeing those kids put those same baskets of white roses at the altar that he did so many times. Mere days after he was elected pope in 2013, he did that, two weeks ago today, and now for the final time right now.

COOPER: We'll just listen in for a few moments.

And as we continue to look at these extraordinarily beautiful images from the Basilica where Pope Francis is now being laid to rest, I want to bring in two people who attended Pope Francis' funeral. With me now is Joe Donnelly, the former U.S. Ambassador to the Vatican and former U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry.

Secretary Kerry, your thoughts on this morning?

JOHN KERRY, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, it was extraordinarily moving. I think it's not just this morning. It's the culmination of a wave of praise and really recognition of the Holy Father Francis is, you know, remarkable character. HIS approach his humility, you hear it from everybody. There's just a consistent refrain of how people are touched by him.

And I think one of the things that strikes me so significant is you heard all the voices of various countries and various parts of the world, various derivatives of the religion. And I think that in the end, it speaks to is ability to have been able to touch people of all different histories, different cultures, different religions, because he was so much a humanist and, so much in keeping with the namesake that he took of Saint Francis.

COOPER: Ambassador, its striking to me that he was here in front of the, you know, most esteemed people around the world, monarchs, kings, princes, presidents, made the procession through the streets of Rome and was greeted by people who are all too often on the margins of society. And that is by design. He wanted that. He wanted to go to this basilica, be buried there, and be greeted by those people.

JOE DONNELLY, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE VATICAN: What I thought here at here at the square was I was thinking that Pope Francis was looking, going I'm not so much focused on the people sitting near me, but everybody in the back of the square who came by busses, who came and walked, who came by trains. And what struck me is how young the crowd was.

COOPER: Yes, it was.

DONNELLY: That they came from all over the world to see him because they loved him so much.

COOPER: And I said this earlier, but they weren't being glumly brought by their parents.

DONNELLY: No.

COOPER: It wasn't -- they weren't being dragged here.

DONNELLY: They didn't come in the back of a Chevy station wagon under edict. I mean, they --

COOPER: They weren't on a tablet while the service was going on.

DONNELLY: They wanted to be here. And you could see how engaged they were and how connected they feel to him and how this is such a special place, because just a week ago, he was in the popemobile, riding around, waving --

COOPER: But that's what's so extraordinary. I mean, he was alive --

DONNELLY: Right.

COOPER: -- on Sunday, on Easter Sunday, on that balcony and made one last heroic effort to be in the popemobile because he wanted to surprise everybody.

DONNELLY: And from what I heard, he looked at his assistant before he did and said, you think we can do this one more time? And they did.

COOPER: And he thanked that assistant who was his nurse, who had stood by him for a long time. And he thanked him afterwards, saying, thank you for helping me return to The Square.

DONNELLY: And one thing that was really beautiful was the priest who said the mass, Cardinal Re, he and Pope Francis have been like best buddies for the past years since he's been at the Vatican. And as I saw him walking around the casket at the end, I was thinking, it's like one old friend saying to the other, I'll see you again sometime.

COOPER: It was -- have you been to a funeral of a pope before?

KERRY: Yes. I was here for John Paul's funeral. Well, this -- I mean, look, you don't compare them, but the liturgy is the liturgy. They follow the mass very closely so there's not an enormous difference. But in this case, I think there was more emotion, more connection, a great passion for what he was fighting to do.

I mean, I had the incredible privilege of meeting with him any number of times in the White House, but more importantly, here in the Vatican.

COOPER: What struck you about him in person?

KERY: Just so straightforward, a great sense of humor, even kind of -- you know, he kind of poke you a little bit, but he had fun with it. And he was passionate about the environment, which is why I was really talking to him. And he loved the work we were doing through the cops. He wanted to go to the COP in the last year. He couldn't at the last moment. But he -- you know, he did love Laudato Si, which was the first encyclical that he put out, which was about climate and about the need for the world to come together to resolve that problem.

Then, right before the meeting in Dubai a couple of years ago, the last COP, he put out a new sort of next version of Laudato Si called Laudate Deum, which exhorted people to recognize you're not doing enough, were not doing enough.

COOPER: COP is a climate summit.

KERRY: We're not getting it done. Correct. And so, he was part of the moral force -- he was the leader, really, of the moral suasion necessary to move forward.

COOPER: I don't want to get too much into politics today, but I do have to ask you, there's a photograph of President Trump and President Zelenskyy. I don't know if you've seen this, two chairs pulled up inside the basilica before the funeral. I don't know what the tone or tenor of the conversation was, but just an extraordinary image.

DONNELLY: When I saw that, I was thinking my first meeting with Pope Francis was about an hour, and we spent about 55 minutes of it on Ukraine, and then we worked with Cardinal Parolin and Cardinal Zuppi, and the dream was to have a peace conference here in Rome, here up in -- at the Vatican or at Castel Gandolfo, where they go. And they worked nonstop to try to make that happen. And how ironic that, in effect, the meeting was here in the back of Saint Peter's.

KERRY: You can feel -- you can get the sense of enthusiasm. Joe is a great ambassador, and you feel it. You can get a sense of it. The -- you know, I think it's important to reflect that in any conversation he had, he didn't -- it wasn't just one concern. He really was at the time that I saw him in the early days, Syria was going on, massive numbers of refugees coming out, dying and drowning in the Mediterranean. He was deeply concerned about that, and outraged.

COOPER: Well, and his first trip was to Lampedusa. And he also went to Lesbos as well, where a lot of Syrians were coming. But what was -- what were your -- I mean, personally, what were your feelings just in your multiple meetings that you had?

DONNELLY: He was he was incredibly smart, very humble. He also ran the shop. He ran a tight ship.

COOPER: Thats what everybody says, which is so interesting that other popes have had, you know, a lot of people around them that they rely on that sort of do things, and the pope kind of goes along with it. He was really calling the shots, even from a public relations standpoint.

DONNELLY: 100 percent. And the people he put in place were his folks. And he was like, we're going to clean up the finances. We're going to make this place run tight. And by the way, were going to serve those who are most marginalized around the world. He knew his plan, and he followed his plan every day. And he had one of the greatest sense of humor you could ever want to find.

One of the one of the monsignors who went out to -- he's in the Americas right now. Right before he left, he met with the pope and the pope said, I have some advice for you. He said, what is it? He goes, pray to Mary the Mother every day. He said, OK. He goes, and listen to the tango.

COOPER: Ambassador, thank you so much.

DONNELLY: Thank you.

COOPER: And Secretary Kerry, thank you so much.

KERRY: Great to be with you.

COOPER: It's really a pleasure.

DONNELLY: Thank you so much

COOPER: On just this extraordinary day, we've just witnessed a historic day and a beautiful day, the funeral and burial procession for Pope Francis. The coffin arrived at the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore just moments ago. And now the conversation turns to what happens next. Who will succeed Pope Francis as the leader of the Catholic Church? A lot more from here when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:21:25]

COOPER: OK. And welcome back to CNN's special coverage of the funeral of Pope Francis. Minutes ago, the coffin of Pope Francis arriving at the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore. We got our last glimpse of the casket as it entered that basilica, and that is where he will be buried and can be visited in the days and years ahead.

Now, conversations, of course, begin on who will succeed Pope Francis as the leader of the Roman Catholic Church, not just conversations among reporters, the international group of reporters who are gathered here, but among Vatican officials as well.

Joining me now is CNN Vatican Reporter Christopher Lamb and CNN Chief International Correspondent Clarissa Ward. First of all, just what an extraordinary day we have seen.

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, it's been extraordinary, very moving and there are scenes that I've witnessed that will live long in the memory. And the most powerful for me is that scene of the popemobile with Pope Francis coffin through the streets of Rome.

COOPER: We didn't know that it was going to be a popemobile. I kept asking yesterday, do we know how he's being transported? There was no answer.

LAMB: There wasn't. And it was one of Pope Francis' surprises, his last surprise. He was the pope who always kept people guessing on their toes and --

COOPER: And he had a sense of humor, too. LAMB: He had a great sense of humor. I myself saw that a number of

times. I once told him a joke that was a little bit close to the line, and he roared with laughter and said, sei cattivo, which means you're naughty. So, he had a great sense of humor, a very human pope.

COOPER: What stood out to you, Clarissa?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN Chief International Correspondent: I think the homily really stayed with me just because in this global moment that were living through, the moral clarity with which Pope Francis spoke, the emphasis on humility, on ending conflict, on people in the margins of society. We are going through an era where it is all about power and force and might makes right and he really stood out as an elder who spoke towards a sort of common humanity and --

COOPER: You also hear so much talk about strength and power. He showed a different kind of strength or had a different definition of what strength is.

WARD: And he talked about this idea of build bridges, not walls.

COOPER: Well, let's -- I just want to play that from the homily. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIOVANNI BATTISTA RE, ITALIAN CARDINAL: Build bridges not walls was an exhortation he repeated many times. In the service of faith as successor of the Apostle Peter, was always to the service of humanity in all its dimensions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: He also talked in the homily again, for -- in front of this crowd, in this particular moment in history about peace and the importance of negotiations. And we saw now that photo, which is probably now going to be a very famous image of President Trump and President Zelenskyy with two chairs pulled together face to face. We don't know exactly what was said, but it is certainly a striking image.

[07:25:00]

WARD: I think part of what's so striking about it, when you look at the image is these two big leaders, but dwarfed --

COOPER: Yes.

WARD: -- by the majesty of the basilica and this extraordinary historic event, which basically forced two leaders who have not sat down with each other since that disastrous meeting in the White House, to sit face to face at a time when Ukrainians and Russians are dying by the tens of thousands. In some ways, it was such a fitting tribute to the legacy of Pope Francis that this would take place literally on the sidelines of his funeral. LAMB: Exactly. Because he time and again was asking leaders to talk to each other during his life to try and find solutions. He even offered to broker a peace between Russia and Ukraine in the Vatican. So, it was an extraordinary legacy already of Francis that that meeting took place in Saint Peter's.

WARD: And you remember that image -- and I don't know if we have it, but there's this very, very striking image as well of him in South Sudan kissing the feet of warring leaders, imploring them to come together to make peace. Pope Francis was not afraid to humble himself and to lead through that humility, to show other leaders that compromise is not weakness.

COOPER: We should point out that image, it looks as if they are deep in negotiations. We have no idea what they actually discussed. For all we know --

WARD: This is true.

COOPER: -- they were talking pleasantries. Yes, we don't know.

Jeff Zeleny is with us as well traveling -- following the President. Jeff, what have you been hearing today? Do we know anything more about what went on?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, we are getting a little bit more of a sense of -- we do know that they discussed the Ukraine war, of course. The President now is on his way back to the United States. But President Zelenskyy, just a few moments ago, tweeted a bit of a readout, if you will. And he said, we discussed a lot, one on one. We're hoping for results on everything we covered, protecting the lives of our people, he says, the full and unconditional ceasefire, reliable and lasting peace.

So, we are still awaiting a full readout from the White House. Again, the President aboard Air Force One coming back to the U.S. But this is an extraordinary image, of course, but it also comes as an extraordinary time when the President, the U.S. President, has been frustrated by his inability to sort of persuade both sides.

Of course, many believe he has favored the Russian side in terms of territory that Ukraine would have to give up. We, of course, remember that the meeting in the oval office, which was just about two months ago exactly where he and Zelenskyy were shouting at each other, and he essentially threw President Zelenskyy out of the White House.

So, when you look at this image vis a vis that moment in the Oval Office, it is clear that both sides are trying to work toward a peace what. We do not know, of course, is where Vladimir Putin sits in all of this. He has been a reluctant. And the president, the U.S. President, was frustrated this week because the bombing, of course, the worst act of violence since last summer. But for this moment at least, this meeting, the White House was not anticipating necessarily much of a formal meeting with President Zelenskyy. But also, interestingly, the French President and the British Prime Minister also stopped by as these two leaders were speaking. So, certainly this is something the Pope who long talked about peace,

who long urged all leaders to come to reach some kind of an agreement, that he certainly would have wanted this meeting, which was right in the entrance of Saint Peter's Basilica. Anderson?

COOPER: Yes. Jeff Zeleny, thanks very much.

There's a lot more to get to today and a lot more of the moments from our coverage this morning. One of the sidelines of this historic day, that meeting between President Trump and Ukraine's President.

Coming up, we'll have more of the details. Our CNN special coverage of the Funeral of Pope Francis continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:33:40]

COOPER: And welcome back to CNN's special coverage of the Funeral of Pope Francis.

Now, in the coming days, cardinals will gather inside the Vatican to select the new leader of the Catholic Church.

Joining me now is CNN Vatican reporter Christopher Lamb, CNN chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward.

As the cardinals now begin to turn toward this conclave, who -- what do we know about who stands out? What are your thoughts on this, Christopher?

LAMB: Well, I think the moment the cardinals will be trying to decide which candidate, in their mind, can best take on some of the reforms that Pope Francis starts, I think the big choice is for the Cardinals is, do we go full steam ahead with someone very much in the Francis' line, someone like Cardinal Tagle, possibly.

Or do we go for someone similar in line to Francis, but perhaps a bit of a slower kind of pace of reform, which is what some people have been concerned about Francis' unpredictability. So, someone like Cardinal Parolin is being tipped. He is the secretary of state.

Now, I would just caution at this point the early front runners often those or an early front runner is often one that pulls away, because really, the decision about who is the strongest candidate will emerge during the discussions.

[07:35:02]

But obviously, there are candidates from Asia, in terms of Tagle. We've got cardinal from Africa, from Kinshasa, who's very strong, from Congo. But I think you have to also look at where the church is growing as well.

COOPER: Well, often, you know, analysts sort of look at the conservative versus progressive liberal question of what direction the church may go in, because Pope Francis has appointed the majority of these cardinals, and the majority of them are now from the Global south, not the global north, not from Europe.

(CROSSTALK)

WARD: You are friends with them.

LAMB: Yes.

COOPER: And the United States. There are -- it's a lot more complex, perhaps, the picture. The concerns of some cardinals may be about corruption in the countries they come from, economic issues, climate issues, more so than a conservative liberal polarization.

(CROSSTALK)

LAMB: Yes, I don't think you -- the framing of conservative versus progressive in this conclave is not really valid, in my view. I think, it is about the different issues that these cardinals are facing in their countries.

And I think, broadly speaking, the cardinals support what Pope Francis has begun when it comes to opening up conversations about church renewal and reform.

And I think, you know, when you look at this conclave coming up, it is very, very unpredictable, because we just don't know how some of these cardinals is going to operate.

I mean, some of them don't know Rome very well. They don't really speak Italian. They don't know the system here. Maybe that will be (INAUDIBLE).

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: And this is their first conclave.

LAMB: This is the -- and this is their first conclave. So, are they going to allow themselves to be pressured by those who have a particular agenda, or are they going to be willing to say, no, this is where we got to go.

WARD: And how much of this is politicking that goes on beyond the scene -- behind the scenes? Because we know that you can't vote if you're over 80, and yet, from what I gather, some of these cardinals who are over 80 are still very powerful in terms of pushing behind the scenes, having meetings, jockeying for one candidate or another.

LAMB: Yes, that's right. They are very influential. the retired cardinals, because obviously, they are well known. They've been around for longer. And they can convene meetings where discussions can take place about, what do you think about this candidate, what do you think about that candidate?

So, you have these formal meetings that take place in the Vatican, but you also have the behind closed doors meetings, the dinners, that is where a lot of the decision-making takes place.

COOPER: I want to bring in Elise, Allen, and also father Beck, who have been with us all day.

Elise, as somebody who watches this very closely, what are your thoughts about the conclave that approaches?

ELISE ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: You know, I think that the cardinals who are going into that conclave have a very tough decision to make.

You know, as Chris is saying a moment ago, many of these guys simply do not know one another. Many come from very remote places and do not come to Rome very often. They don't know each other. They don't know the system. It's hard for them to make a decision without a lot of contexts there, and without having the background to a lot of the fellow Cardinals.

And in addition to that, they also have to weigh the situation of the world today, what is going on geopolitically? What is going on in the church? What are the needs of the people in all of their countries and at various levels, you know? And also, you have to look at the reforms that Pope Francis had tried to carry forward, the reforms of the Vatican, the curia, its financial apparatus.

You know, these are all very complex, you know, questions that they have to be paying attention to and they have to be thinking about. And so, trying to find a candidate who they think is going to be able to carry those things forward, while also inspiring you know -- you know, a good spiritual life amongst the people, you know, and bringing people, you know, to Christ, carrying forward the message of mercy and forgiveness and compassion that Pope Francis also, you know, dedicated his life and service to.

These are not easy tasks, and I'm certainly glad that I don't have to do it. I will say.

COOPER: And Father Beck, what are your thoughts?

BECK: Well, I think that maybe after they finally broke out from electing a European and they went to the southern hemisphere with Francis, it might be good that they're going to now consider, well, maybe Asia, maybe, you know, the Pacific Rim, maybe even Africa.

Christopher lamb mentioned Cardinal Tagle, who was talked about last time. Then, they said he was too young. He is the Filipino cardinal, and he is quite popular. He is in accord with the vision of Francis. So, he could be an interesting choice.

Also, interestingly, they say, well, what about an American, which everyone says that will never happen.

[07:40:01]

But there is an American who's kind of rising to the fore. His name is Cardinal Prevost. He is the head of the dicastery for bishops. I actually know him, believe it or not. We went to school together, to seminary, and then, he went on to become the provincial for the Augustinians. And he's quite well liked. And I'm surprised that, you know, that's a name that's actually being spoken of.

So, can you imagine American. Now, most of that will never happen, but I do think that their loath to go back to necessarily thinking Western European, kind of more insulated, that finally, when Francis now has pushed the boundaries outward, they may want to stay in that direction, especially since so many of them are from, as we have said, those far-flung countries.

COOPER: Yes. And we're going to take a short break. Emotion pouring out around the world as hundreds of thousands say goodbye to Pope Francis for the last time. Let's talk to a close friend of Pope Francis and what he thought about this momentous day.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:45:41]

COOPER: And welcome back to CNN's Special coverage of THE FUNERAL OF POPE FRANCIS.

This morning, Pope Francis' coffin passing the Coliseum on its momentous journey from St. Peter Square to the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore, where the pope will be buried.

CNN's senior correspondent David Culver joins us now from Buenos Aires, where joining a group of people from a lower-income community where Pope Francis spent a lot of time when he was a cardinal,

David, what have you been hearing from people this morning?

DAVID CULVER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, these are often referred to as the people who were nearest to Pope Francis' heart. This is Savia. This is a very low income, humble, simple community, and this is their local parish. And you can see, this is just some of the group that's filling in now, because they have arranged for shuttle busses to come in, to bring these folks who are literally on the margins of the city center, and to bring them into the Plaza de Mayo.

And they've got out here, let me take you outside here, and you can get a sense of what they are preparing for. They have got a statue of the Virgin Mary there that they've got on the back of this truck, that they're about to drive off as part of their pilgrimage of sorts to the Plaza de Mayo, and part of their farewell, Anderson, to Pope Francis, one of their own, who, as we know, became the worlds.

COOPER: David Culver in Buenos Aires, David, thank you very much. Here in Rome, in Vatican City, there are still probably about several hundred people here in St. Peter's Square, just talking with each other, still not wanting to leave this extraordinary scene that we -- they have been taking part in for the last several hours. I'm joined right now by John Studzinski, a friend of Pope Francis who attended today's funeral, does enormous amounts of terrible work as well.

John, for you as somebody who's been very close to this pope for a long time, what was it like today?

JOHN STUDZINSKI, FRIEND OF POPE FRANCIS: Well, you and I have talked about this several times this week, Anderson, and today was the first time that was -- it was actually very tearful.

Today, was the time where all of his close friends were seated together, which is a nice blessing that -- arranged. And when the coffin came out, and we all knew that he had chosen a coffin that was not going to be layered in two or three other coffins. It was -- that was the actual coffin that was going to be in, layered in the human center. So, that, in itself, knowing how opinionated he was about his coffin.

But what really got us was the point in the sermon about pray for me, because every conversation you started with him, and I've said this to you, is he start the meeting with pray for me, John, and he'd end the meeting with, pray for me, John.

So, now, as part of his legacy for us to think he is there and he can pray for us. That really -- that was very, very tearful.

ANDERSON: The other thing that I'm so struck by is, I mean that I personally believe, is that you can still have a relationship with somebody who has died, and that relationship can deepen. You must feel that with Pope Francis, based on your faith, that you can still have contact with him.

STUDZINSKI: I found that was very powerful today, because the wonderful thing about the Catholic Church and the universal church is this funeral is basically a microcosm. You had everyone here today, and I -- the thing that really made me think about eternity was how he insisted on having the Eastern right, at very --

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Which was so powerful.

WARD: Haunting.

STUDZINSKI: And it's haunting. And Clarissa, you have spent a lot of time in the Mideast. You know this, you both have. It's so haunting, and it's much more mystical.

COOPER: Yes.

STUDZINSKI: It's much more spiritual. And we've talked about the supernatural. And you --

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Even the tenor of this.

(CROSSTALK)

STUDZINSKI: Yes.

COOPER: Of the -- which we are listening to right now, it's so extraordinary.

STUDZINSKI: Well, it has elements of light, but it has an element of dark, and it has an element of the spiritual, but also the supernatural.

COOPER: Yes.

STUDZINSKI: So, it -- I found that very moving. I found it reminded me of so many conversations with him, where he was so focused on his role, being a bridge builder among the faiths, and saying that was his principal mission. And if he built bridges across the three big Aramaic faiths, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, and then, more broadly, he would have accomplished his mission.

[07:50:03]

COOPER: And last time we talked several days ago, and you were going to be able to spend a good amount of time by his casket in the Basilica. I'm wondering, as much as you want to say, what that was like.

STUDZINSKI: Well, you know, it's interesting. As I -- It dawned on me as I was sort of conversing with him that, and you probably talked about this, it's rather morose, but he -- the body is not embalmed.

COOPER: Yes.

STUDZINSKI: So, it made me think about a conversation I've had with so many people about his last 48 hours, about him being almost, you know, he was -- he was dying, but he was not yet at the point of death. But he was so incapacitated. And I was looking at how quickly his body had deteriorated.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Yes.

STUDZINSKI: Even in the last 48 hours.

COOPER: Yes.

STUDZINSKI: And thinking how he couldn't speak or anything else last Sunday, when he was in, in The Square. And it was the ultimate example of he wanted to be the symbol of the good shepherd until the very last moment.

And I think he accomplished that.

COOPER: Yes. STUDZINSKI: He really did.

COOPER: John Studzinski, I really appreciate you talking to you all these days. Thank you. Thank you very much.

STUDZINSKI: Thank you.

COOPER: During the early days of COVID in March of 2020, with cities, including Rome, under lockdown, when people were huddled at home and in fear, afraid of even one another, the unknown Pope Francis spoke and filled that dark void.

And I just wanted to spend a few moments and just read you some of what he said, both for the beauty of his words and because what he said then can be said to apply to now as well.

These are the words of Pope Francis: "The storm exposes our vulnerability and uncovers those false and superfluous certainties around which we have constructed, our daily schedules, our projects, our habits, and priorities. It shows us how we've allowed to become dull and feeble the very things that nourish, sustain, and strengthen our lives and our communities. The tempest lays bare all our pre- packaged ideas and forgetfulness of what nourishes our people's souls, all those attempts that anesthetize us with ways of thinking and acting that supposedly save us, but instead prove incapable of putting us in touch with our roots and keeping alive the memory of those who have gone before us. We deprive ourselves of the antibodies we need to confront adversity."

He went on to say, "We've gone ahead of breakneck speed, feeling powerful and able to do anything. Greedy for profit, we let ourselves get caught up in things and lured away by haste. We did not stop at your reproach to us. We were not shaken awake by wars or injustice across the world. Nor did we listen to the cry of the poor of our ailing planet. We carried on regardless, thinking we would stay healthy in a world that was sick. Now, that we are in a stormy sea, we implore you, wake up, Lord.

You are calling on us to seize this time of trial as a time of choosing. It is not the time of your judgment, but of our judgment, a time to choose what matters and what passes away, a time to separate what is necessary for what is not. It is a time to get our lives back on track. With regard to you, Lord and to others.

We can look to so many exemplary companions for the journey," Francis said, "who, even though fearful have reacted by giving their lives. This is the force of the Spirit poured out and fashioned in courageous and generous self-denial.

It is the life in the Spirit that can redeem value and demonstrate how our lives are woven together and sustained by ordinary people, often forgotten, people who do not appear in newspaper and magazine headlines nor in the grand catwalks at the latest show. But who, without any doubt, are in these very days writing the decisive events of our time. Doctors, nurses, supermarket employees, cleaners, caregivers, providers of transport, law and order forces, volunteers, priests, religious, men and women and so very many others who have understood that no one reaches salvation by themselves.

The face of so much suffering, where the authentic development of our peoples is assessed, we experience the priestly prayer of Jesus that they may all be one. How many people every day are exercising patience and offering hope, taking care to sow not panic, but a shared responsibility.

How many fathers, mothers, grandparents and teachers are showing our children in small everyday gestures how to face up to and navigate a crisis by adjusting their routines, lifting their gaze and fostering prayer? How many are praying, offering and interceding for the good of all. Prayer and quiet service. These are our victorious weapons."

Our special coverage continues right after this. If you're just waking up, here are some of the key moments of this remarkable day so far.

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