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CNN Live Event/Special
CNN's Special Coverage Of The Conclave Mass, Live From Vatican City; Conclave to Elect New Pope to Begin at the Vatican; India Strikes Pakistan in Major Escalation Over Kashmir Violence. Aired 3:50-5a ET
Aired May 07, 2025 - 3:50 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[03:50:00]
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to CNN's special coverage of the Conclave Mass on this Wednesday morning. I'm Erin Burnett, live from Vatican City here in Rome, St. Peter's Basilica just behind us.
You hear the bells? This is where the process of selecting a new Pope will begin in a matter of minutes. There will be a public Mass here at St. Peter's Basilica.
This is as we are looking at crowds gathering. The Conclave is a nearly 800-year-old ritual and it has had its changes over the years but very few, ultimately still in secret.
Now 133 cardinals who will, steeped in intrigue and tradition, make this crucial decision. They will be sealed from the outside world. They do not have phones, they don't have iPads, nothing during the entirety of the Conclave.
Cell phone service, in fact, has been shut off to ensure that what happens during the Conclave remains a mystery. And if cardinals share any of it, they would be excommunicated to even share anything about the votes or what happens.
Let's show you what we are seeing here as we sit here in St. Peter's Square.
The chimney that is, of course, the chimney we are going to be watching so closely, where we will eventually see the white smoke when a new Pope has been chosen. Until then, this is the real question, which direction will the Catholic Church go?
And it matters not just for the 1.2 billion Catholics around the world, but for everyone as a leader of such faith. It will all be playing out inside the Sistine Chapel, which is also just behind us, right behind one of those buildings. You can't see the chapel itself from here, but you can see that chimney.
And the person who is chosen as Pope will be much more than the leader, as I said, of the world's 1.4 billion Catholics. Pope Francis, his papacy of course lasted a dozen years. But he
weighed in, he weighed in on political issues and issues of war and peace and morality and politics, the world's most pressing issues.
He warned against the rise of nationalism in Europe. He talked about dictatorship and authoritarianism, climate change. And he took on Putin's war in Ukraine.
He also was not afraid to repeatedly criticize Donald Trump's crackdown on immigration. But what remains to be seen is what this next Pope will do.
Will he follow in Francis' footsteps or take the church in a much more conservative path? Those are the big questions, of course, that the cardinals will be talking about in this conclave as they vote.
And I'm joined this morning by our Vatican correspondent, Christopher Lamb, as well as Kim Daniels, the director of Georgetown University's Initiative on Catholic Social Thought. And our senior international correspondent, Ben Wedemann, is out in the square as crowds are gathering. And our religion contributor, Father Edward Beck, is standing by in New York as well, by the Passionist Order.
So, Chris, you know, as we're here and crowds are just starting to come in, you know, as an American I'm reminded of, you know, big political events or an inauguration when you have all the checkpoints and people are coming in. That's what we're seeing now as crowds are starting to filter in. But this mass is truly the beginning of what will happen here.
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is the start of this process, which, of course, is a vote, but also very much a spiritual process. It's that mixture between the human and the divine.
And, of course, it starts with this mass, which will be led by Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, the dean of the College of Cardinals. Those of you who've watched "Conclave," the movie, will know the dean plays an important role. And what he says, I think, will set the tone for the cardinal electors when they go into the Sistine Chapel.
So this mass is very important to gather the cardinals together in prayer for what is a spiritual experience, but also to help guide them in what they're going to be doing.
BURNETT: And, Kim, you know, they've been together in recent days, right? But this morning they wake up, they have their breakfast, they're ready to be they're going to be sequestered. You know, what is this moment like in these -- the weight of it? How does the weight of it feel?
KIM DANIELS, DIRECTOR, GEORGETOWN INITIATIVE ON CATHOLIC SOCIAL THOUGHT: You know, I've been struck so much in the past few days in particular by the solemnity of what's happening and by the real responsibility that the cardinals feel as they enter into this conversation. They'll be in the Sistine Chapel in front of Michelangelo's Last Judgment. They will take an oath. When they cast their vote, they will say, as Christ is my witness, I cast this for the person I think to be the best person. So it's a very weighty moment.
BURNETT: And, you know, Ben Wedemann is here with us as well. Ben, I don't know if you can hear me, but as where you are, people who are coming into the square, and of course as we're getting ready for smoke, as these days go on, this square will be packed.
But now you have the faithful who are coming to be a part of the whole process, of the solemnity of this Mass, which is about to begin.
[03:55:06]
BEN WEDEMANN, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, we have a lot of people coming in. But at the moment I think journalists outnumber those who want to be here just for their own personal reasons. But what we've seen over the last, certainly, two weeks since the passing of Pope Francis is that a lot of people who were in Rome just as tourists have suddenly been drawn to sort of the magic and mystery that is the Vatican at this very special time, the passing of Pope Francis, and now, of course, with the conclave coming up.
And I've spoken to many tourists who are here on a timetable. They've got a flight out or a ship out, and they're very frustrated, many of them, that they won't be able to stay through the entire process, because having attended two conclaves and transitions from one pope to another, I can tell you it is indeed an incredible time.
Certainly, for instance, in 2013 when we saw the white smoke and the announcement of the election of Jorge Bergoglio, who became Pope Francis, what we saw was thousands of people converging after that white smoke appeared on St. Peter's Square, almost organically, people from the neighborhoods around here, in addition to those tourists who were passing through Rome. So it is indeed a very special time for the people of Rome, but anybody who happens to be in this city. Erin?
BURNETT: It is, and you feel that, because obviously this is a city where tourists come from around the world. They are here, as you said, planes and ships.
And just to touch a moment of history like this, you know, last night, just a few hours ago when we were sitting here together, Chris, it was hard to see the red velvet curtains. But they are there, and they are ready.
And it is, as I said, sort of a butterflies in your stomach moment for anyone, regardless of your religion, to know that there will be a Pope coming right behind us sometime in these next days.
LAMB: Yes, it is very exciting. There is so much anticipation and drama. Of course, no one will know before everyone else, other than the cardinals, but we are all going to be told at the same time through this smoke signal, either black or eventually white smoke. BURNETT: Kim, maybe the part about this that is compelling, as I think
as a journalist of how broken the world is now in terms of its interests, when the Queen died, there was a palpable coming together of people caring. And now you have, in a moment like this, there is no advantage.
There is no, I am going to see it on Twitter first. I am going to find out before. There is only one way, and it is the way that it has been done, essentially, with some marginal tweaks here and there, for 800 years.
DANIELS: You know, it is amazing to me. We are such a church rooted in tradition. The idea that we are communicating by smoke signals, essentially, is very powerful, by bells.
It is a very powerful moment, I was here in this square 12 years ago, and I remember that feeling of being part of a global church. You could feel it all around, you could feel the people streaming in from everywhere. Really a remarkable moment.
BURNETT: And, Father Beck, as you say, as they are going to be at this Mass in just a few moments, we are looking at these images, gathered together, those cardinals. Then they will have a bit of a break. They will have lunch at Santa Marta.
They are then going to take the oath and go in. Chris said something a moment ago that just made me pause for everybody to think.
To imagine sitting there in the Sistine Chapel and looking up at what you are looking up at to make this decision. I mean, could there be a more glorious, solemn place to make such a decision?
FR. EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGION CONTRIBUTOR: No, I don't think there can be. And it has been that way since the 1500s now in the Sistine Chapel. But I think what is on the mind of these cardinals, especially beginning with Mass, Erin, is that this really is for them a spiritual process. We have heard so much in the press about the politicking of the press, kind of doing certain cardinals in.
But this Mass will be to pray that they elect the best person. They are going to sing as part of this Mass, Veni Creator Spiritus, Come Holy Spirit.
So the belief is ultimately that even with all of the politicking and all of the machinations behind the scenes, that God will get through that. That the Holy Spirit ultimately will prevail and that the right person will be chosen.
And that is why they are beginning with the Eucharist, the highest form that we have of prayer as a Catholic community. Because they really want to, I think, open themselves up. Most of them do.
I'm sure there are a few in there who are just about the politics. But I think most of them really want to open themselves up to the Spirit speaking to them.
[04:00:00]
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: And Chris, you know, many of us, you know, you see the conclave that that window, a highly accurate one of what of what happens. We're going to be taking the mass here in just a few seconds as much of its entirety as possible to be in that room.
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, I think look, going into the Sistine Chapel as a cardinal is a huge moment. And of course, you know, the main job description of a cardinal is to vote for a Pope. So they know how important this is.
Of course, there has been a lot of debate, a lot of discussion, the politics has been going on in these days. But now we're getting to the serious business, the really weighty task of, you know, the cardinals having to cast their vote in front of that fresco of Michelangelo, the last judgment, it doesn't get more serious and dramatic and weighty than that.
BURNETT: And mass is getting underway, Kim, we can hear it. And I don't know if everyone can hear but anyone here in the square can hear all of this over the loudspeaker as well, of what is literally happening behind those doors behind where we are sitting.
DANIELS: KIM DANIELS, DIRECTOR, GEORGE TOWN UNIVERSITY'S INITIATIVE ON CATHOLIC SOCIAL THOUGHT: It's just remarkable, isn't it? It's a moment, again, that roots us in our tradition that connects us with people around the world, and also puts us in the middle of, you know, the heart of who the Roman Catholic Church is, of who we are. It's very spiritual, very solemn moment for all of us as we pray for the cardinals.
BURNETT: And Chris, tell us what we're hearing right now, the rites.
LAMB: We're hearing the entrance antiphon, and the choir is singing, I will raise up for myself a faithful priest who shall do according to my heart and mind. I will establish a lasting house for him. Hallelujah.
So this entrance prayer, echoing, of course, what the cardinals are going to do to try and elect a leader among them, linking this election with the scriptures and the prayers of the church.
BURNETT: So Father Beck, tell us what we're seeing here now with the procession.
BECK: This is the entrance procession being sung beautifully, I think, by the choir. And we have a full church here. And what we're going to see is the beginning of the Mass.
I mean, it will be really like any other Mass, except that the special intention will be, of course, to be praying for the election of a new Pope. We're going to hear some really beautiful readings during this Mass. I think readings that we're going to think Pope Francis must have chosen himself, which I think is a very interesting thing since I'm not sure he did. I don't think he did. But when we pay attention to that first reading from Isaiah, it's as
if Pope Francis could have written it. It means you're going to hear, the Lord anointed me to bring good news to the poor, to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to captives, to open the prison to those who are bound, to comfort those who mourn.
And so we're really going to be setting a tone here for the continuation by what we hear in the readings of Pope Francis's papacy. And of course, will remain to be seen if that what will be happening when the Cardinals vote. But this is going to be a Mass pretty much like any other, except there's a lot more pomp and circumstance and a lot more participants in this Mass.
BURNETT: And Kim, the beauty already of the music. It can't help but touch you. And the power of the pomp and the majesty that we are seeing of these Cardinals coming in, right? And it is truly stunning just to look at this image with all of the red capes, right?
DANIELS: All of it together. It's truly stunning and it really puts you again in the spiritual context that is appropriate as we enter these conversations. I think it takes us out of all of the back and forth we've had over the past few weeks and reminds us that this is a very weighty moment and a moment for all of us as Catholics to be praying together.
BURNETT: So Chris, a Mass like any other, as Father Beck says, and yet a Mass, of course, unlike any other, all at the same time.
LAMB: Yes, I mean, this Mass only happens when the Pope has died or resigned. So it only happens once every decade or perhaps more.
It is a Mass like every other, but with specific prayers for the election of the Pope. And so it is a time-honored tradition, a prayer that is a ritual liturgy that is said in the Church all the time, but with that specific element of the prayers for the election of a new Pope.
BURNETT: And we do know, Chris, also that obviously presiding will be Cardinal Re, who presided over Pope Francis's funeral, 91 years old, so he can't vote himself.
[04:05:00]
And yet his homily, what he will say to address the Cardinals here about the decision, every word matters, right? Every word is rhetorically important.
LAMB: Yes, that's right. What he says sets the tone for the Cardinals. It guides them.
It is significant that he is 91 and unable to vote. So when he gives his homily, he will be guiding them as a kind of elder statesman. In previous Masses like this, remember 2005, when Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was the Dean, when he preached, that was seen very much as a sort of manifesto for what would turn out to be his papacy. He was the Dean, but he was able to vote, whereas Cardinal Re is not able to vote. So this Mass can be a kind of platform for a potential candidate, but this time it won't be. So I think that's quite significant.
BURNETT: Quite significant. And the message that he sends will matter so much. Father Beck, as we think about this homily, we're really just moments away from that crucial address from Cardinal Re.
BECK: Well, and if we'll remember, the homily that Cardinal Battista Re gave at Pope Francis's funeral was a ringing endorsement of the papacy of Pope Francis. He spoke about all of his accomplishments and the fact that they needed to continue. So once again -- and he did it with a lot of vigor.
So once again, we have that same Cardinal who's going to be preaching to these Cardinals who will elect the new Pope, even though Cardinal Battista Re cannot vote. And I'm pretty sure we're going to hear something that encourages them to continue to go in the path of Pope Francis.
BURNETT: And which, Kim, will be so important. I'm also struck by, we're talking about Cardinal Re, who is 91 years old and can't vote. The cutoff age for voting is 80.
In this jubilee year, right, a year for Catholics to celebrate and come together, one of the things that they are honoring is age. And I feel as if sometimes people look upon this institution and the Cardinals as an all-male, historically white group of old men, that there is something that can touch so many about age and the benefits and the wisdom that come from age that we are hopefully going to see.
DANIELS: You know, I think we have, again, seen that over these past weeks, that it's been a matter of listening to the wisdom of people and men who've been involved in this for years and know from which they speak. And at the same time, you talked about Cardinal Re really bringing forward Pope Francis, pontificates, his efforts. And I think one of the things that Francis did was really diversify this body of Cardinals, bring in people from all around the globe, appoint women to leadership positions in the Vatican.
So it's really important also to remember that we have some new voices as well.
LAMB: Yes, I couldn't agree more. And I think Francis tried to do was break some of the Vatican glass ceilings when it came to the appointment of women to senior positions in the church. I mean, of course, there will be some people watching these images and wondering where are the women.
BURNETT: Yes.
LAMB: But I think that is something the Cardinals are going to have to take into consideration when they decide who they're going to elect. Will the Pope who comes after Francis continue in his reforms that he started, particularly around the role of women? And we know that there are some Cardinals who don't like what Francis did. So it's a big decision that they face.
BURNETT: Yes, I remember as a young Catholic girl, when the women's first started to have any sort of a role in the mass at all, even on the side, right, even able to -- it was very significant, right? This was in the 80s and 90s.
Chris, what can you tell us about as they are coming in here, where they sit? How does all this work?
LAMB: Well, within the College of Cardinals, there is a hierarchy. You have the cardinal deacons, the cardinal priests and the cardinal bishops. And it is the cardinal bishops who are the most senior.
They process in at the end. So it's the most junior who come in first and the most senior who come into the end. We've just seen Cardinal Re. We can see him now coming up to the altar to to get the mass underway.
BURNETT: Which one is he?
LAMB: He's just in the center of the screen. You can see with his hands in the prayer position.
BURNETT: And he, of course, will be giving the the homily. Kim, as Chris is explaining, at most junior first, sometimes it is most senior as this process goes on that we will see the ranking.
DANIELS: Yes, absolutely. And I think the other thing to note, of course, is that you see this baldacchino which is recently restored above the altar there. It's, again, a really wonderful comment on the connection we have with our tradition.
And then, of course, the full St. Peter's Basilica, where the faithful are. And really, this is a moment of the faithful supporting our cardinals, but also really in prayer together in this decision.
LAMB: And of course, the altar is just by the tomb of St. Peter. Catholics hold us the first pope. And of course, the pope who is to be elected will be the 267th successor of St. Peter.
[04:10:00]
So that's the tomb of St. Peter. Catholics hold us the first pope. And of course, the pope who is to be elected will be the 267th successor of St. Peter. So that's also a very powerful image.
BURNETT: A moment like this, you can imagine the smells of being in the Basilica, Kim, what it is for them in this moment.
So, Father Beck, can you just explain --? I know you said this is a Mass like any other. And we're going to be listening in here in a moment as they begin the readings and the homily itself from Cardinal Re. But what is most important in these next moments in this opening Mass?
BECK: I think what's most important is that the spirit of prayer is present and that the cardinals open themselves up to it. And I think we will see that right now. Right now we see the incensing of the altar and the significance of the incensing is as the smoke rises, our prayers rise to God.
This isn't just so that the church smells good. The image is that the smoke is rising as we rise and we present our prayers to God as we begin. And so these cardinals are now joined to do that in the highest form of prayer we have. And again, the spirit is in their midst.
BURNETT: So, Chris, we're going to listen in a moment here. This is going to be the... Let's listen here.
CARDINAL GIOVANNI BATTISTA RE (through translator): And of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Peace be with you.
Brethren, let us acknowledge our sins and so prepare ourselves to celebrate the sacred mysteries. I confess to almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. Therefore, I ask the blessed Mary ever Virgin, all the angels and saints and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord, our God.
May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins and bring us everlasting life. The Kyrie.
(CHOIR SINGS KYRIE)
BURNETT: Hearing the Kyrie here in the Vatican outside where that conclave mass right now has begun, we will be hearing the readings and the homily from Cardinal Re in this incredible and important moment here in Rome.
We are also, as we watch this mass with you this early morning, following a major escalation in hostilities between India and Pakistan, the two nuclear powered rivals now on the brink of war. We'll have the very latest on that. And of course, continue our live coverage of this conclave mass right here on CNN in just a moment.
[04:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Rosemary Church just updating you on one of our top stories. The death toll is rising from Indian military strikes on Pakistan, raising fears that two nuclear- armed rivals are moving closer to war.
A Pakistani military spokesperson tells Reuters at least 26 civilians have been killed and 46 injured. India claims to have targeted terrorist infrastructure in several locations inside Pakistan and Pakistan-administered Kashmir. India insists its missile strikes were, quote, focused and precise and designed to be non-escalatory in nature. Pakistan rejects that claim. Pakistan also says it shot down five Indian air force jets and a drone. CNN cannot independently confirm those claims.
Meanwhile, according to a senior Indian defense source, Pakistani shelling in Indian-administered Kashmir has now killed eight people. Authorities in Indian-administered Kashmir have ordered the evacuation of citizens from areas they deemed dangerous. These back-and-forth attacks come about two weeks after gunmen massacred 26 tourists in Indian-administered Kashmir.
India quickly accused Pakistan of supporting terrorists in the region. Pakistan denied any responsibility. The two sides have also been exchanging shelling and gunfire across their disputed border.
This is the first time since 2019 that India has struck inside Pakistani territory. The attacks in Punjab province are the deepest since the 1971 war.
And CNN's Kristie Lu Stout is covering all this for us. She joins us now live from Hong Kong.
[04:20:00]
So, Kristie, what is the latest on these developments and, of course, these concerns about this major escalation?
KRISTIE LU STOUT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Rosemary, there is deep concern that we could be on the brink of war with the death toll rising. India has carried out these military strikes against Pakistan. This day, this comes two weeks after the tourist massacre in Indian-controlled Kashmir, a massacre that India blames on Pakistan and Pakistan denies.
India carried out these military strikes earlier today in the early hours of Wednesday. The Indian military says it targeted and struck terrorist infrastructure. This is their words, quote, terrorist infrastructure, both inside Pakistan proper as well as in Pakistan- administered Kashmir territory.
Earlier today, we heard from the Indian foreign minister. He said that India has the right to respond. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VIKRAM MISRI, INDIAN FOREIGN SECRETARY: Earlier this morning, as you would be aware, India exercised its right to respond and preempt as well as deter more such cross-border attacks. These actions were measured, non-escalatory, proportionate, and responsible. They focused on dismantling the terrorist infrastructure and disabling terrorists likely to be sent across to India.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STOUT: India says that a total of nine sites were targeted. And I want to show you a social media video that's been going viral. It shows the moment of impact for one of these strikes that hit in eastern Pakistan.
This is significant. This is the first time India has conducted airstrikes inside Pakistan since 2019. Multiple sites have been targeted. Multiple sites have been hit, including a religious school.
And in this next social media video, you will see the aftermath of that strike on a religious school in eastern Pakistan near the town of Lahore. If we have that video for you, you can see the school there is up in flames.
Pakistan's military telling Reuters at least 26 civilians have been killed, including women and children. Pakistan's military also saying that this is a blatant act of war. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. GEN. AHMED SHARIF CHAUDHRY, PAKISTANI MILITARY SPOKESPERSON: We strongly condemn this cowardly action of India, which is in any form a flagrant violation of the United Nations Charter, international law, and all established norms of interstate relations. The Indian leadership has once again used the bogey of terrorism to advance its shame narrative of victimhood. We have jeopardized the regional peace and security.
And I must say that India's reckless action has brought the two nuclear armed states closer to a major conflict.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STOUT: Pakistan, as it is, shot down at least five Indian fighter jets. The Indian military says that Pakistan has been carrying out cross-border shelling, which has resulted in taking the lives of at least six civilians. And Rosemary concerns growing that this could indeed escalate into all out war. Back to you.
CHURCH: That is the fear. Kristie Lu Stout joining us live there from Hong Kong with that report. Appreciate it.
And we will return to CNN's Erin Burnett in Rome for our special coverage of the papal conclave right after the break.
[04:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Welcome back to our special live coverage here on CNN of the Papal Conclave here at the Vatican. Cardinals at the Vatican and St. Peter's Basilica just behind where we are seated are celebrating mass right now. We can hear it on the loudspeaker behind us as people are starting to gather ahead of the conclave.
They will be formally taking the oath to select a new Pope today in just hours. This mass, a prelude to the conclave that will make that crucial decision.
I'm here with Kim Daniels and Chris Lamb, our Vatican correspondent, Father Edward Beck with us as well, Ben Wedeman with people who are gathering.
Chris, we are hearing -- we have heard the readings, the gospel. We are now preparing for Cardinal Re, who officiated, of course, over Francis's funeral to give the crucial homily.
LAMB: Yes, that's right, Erin, and he will be preaching based on the readings and the gospel according to John. There's a line here where it says, you did not choose me, but I chose you. Quite appropriate for a mass ahead of the election of a Pope, of course, that sense of being chosen, a vocation perhaps, someone who was not expecting it. All the readings are speaking to what is about to take place in the Sistine Chapel.
BURNETT: And Kim, the selection of the readings and the gospel, what do they say to you?
DANIELS: You know, I really do think they bring together these themes that are so important, have been so important, again, to Pope Francis, but for the church over the course of centuries, right? In the first reading, talking about the poor, talking about caring for the least of these in many ways. And now, again, you did not choose me, but I chose you.
I'm reminded of Pope Francis' favorite painting of St. Matthew and of being chosen and of being unworthy for that, but at the same time, understanding the call of God. It's a very profound moment.
BURNETT: Very profound, and Father Beck, here in the gospel, you did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit. Some of the words in this selection here for the gospel.
BECK: Exactly, which once again points to the fact that this is a calling, this is a vocation. What we as priests believe, what bishops believe, and certainly what the cardinals believe about choosing the Pope is that someone is called to this ministry, that there's a reason why they are called, and there's a divine initiative to it. The gospel that's being proclaimed by John says that the priority of that ministry is to abide in love.
[04:30:00]
We hear this beautiful gospel, love one another as I have loved you, but the go and bear fruit by loving one another so that what you receive in love you must give.
And that is what they are joining together in prayer for, that really whoever is elected acts out of mercy and love in much the same way that the predecessor Pope Francis did. And so the prayer is all about rising to the vocation they've been called to, which is the divine initiative, not a human one, ultimately.
BURNETT: Homily is going to begin here just momentarily from Cardinal Re.
LAMB: Yes, that's right. The gospel is finished and now we will hear that reflection from the Cardinal.
BURNETT: Let's watch here Cardinal Re and listen to the homily.
CARDINAL GIOVANNI BATTISTA RE, DEAN OF THE COLLEGE OF CARDINALS (through translator): Dearest Cardinals, elect, and all brothers and sisters. We read in the Acts of the Apostles that after Christ's ascension into heaven and while waiting for Pentecost, all were united and persevering in prayer together with Mary, the Mother of Jesus. This is precisely what we are doing a few hours before the beginning of the conclave under the gaze of Our Lady here beside the altar in this basilica which rises above the tomb of the Apostle Peter.
We feel united with the entire people of God in their sense of faith, love for the Pope, and confident expectation. We are here to invoke the help of the Holy Spirit, to implore his light and strength so that the Pope elected may be he whom the church and humanity need at this difficult and complex turning point in history.
To pray by invoking the Holy Spirit is the only right and proper attitude to take as the Cardinal electors prepare to undertake an act of the highest human and ecclesial responsibility and to make a choice of exceptional importance.
This is a human act for which every personal consideration must be set aside, keeping in mind and heart only the God of Jesus Christ and the good of the church and of humanity.
In the Gospel that has been proclaimed, words resound that brings us to the heart of the supreme message and testament of Jesus delivered to his apostles on the evening of the Last Supper in the Upper Room. This is my commandment that you love one another as I loved you.
[04:35:00]
As if to clarify this as I have loved you and to indicate how far our love must go, Jesus goes on to say, no one has greater love than this to lay down one's life for one's own friends.
This is the message of love which Jesus calls a new commandment. It is new because it transforms into something positive and greatly expands the admonition of the Old Testament that said, do not do to others what you would not want done to you.
The love that Jesus reveals knows no limits and must characterize the thoughts and actions of all his disciples who must always show authentic love in their behavior and commit themselves to building a new civilization, what Paul VI called the civilization of love. Love is the only force capable of changing the world.
And Jesus gave us an example of this love at the beginning of the Last Supper with a surprising gesture. He humbled himself in the service of others, washing the feet of the apostles without discrimination and not excluding Judas who would betray him.
This message of Jesus connects us to what we have heard in the first reading of the Mass in which the prophet Isaiah reminded us that the fundamental quality of pastors is love, love to the point of complete self-giving.
The liturgical texts of this Eucharistic celebration then invite us to fraternal love, to mutual help and to commitment to ecclesial communion and universal human fraternity. Among the tasks of every successor of Peter is that of fostering communion, communion of all Christians with Christ, communion of the bishops with the Pope, communion of the bishops among themselves. This is not a self- referential communion but one that is entirely directed towards communion among persons, peoples and cultures with a concern that the church should always be a home and school of communion.
This is also a strong call to maintain the unity of the church on the path traced out by Christ to the apostles. The unity of the church is willed by Christ, a unity that does not mean uniformity but a firm and profound community in diversity provided that full fidelity to the gospel is maintained.
Each Pope continues to embody Peter and his mission and thus represents Christ on earth. He is the rock on which the church is built. The election of the new Pope is not a simple succession of persons yet it is always the Apostle Peter who returns.
The cardinal electors will cast their votes in the Sistine Chapel, the place as the apostolic constitution Universi Dominici Gregis states where everything is conducive to an awareness of the presence of God in whose sight each person will one day be judged.
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In his Roman triptych Pope John Paul II expressed the hope that during the hours of voting on this weighted decision Michelangelo's looming image of Jesus the judge would remind everyone of the greatness of the responsibility of placing the supreme keys in the correct hands.
Let us pray then that the Holy Spirit who in the last hundred years has given us a series of truly holy and great pontiffs will give us now a new Pope according to God's heart for the good of the church and of humanity. Let us pray that God will grant the church a Pope who knows how best to awaken the consciences of all and the moral and spiritual energies in today's society characterized by great technological progress but which tends to forget God.
Today's world expects much from the church regarding the safeguarding of those fundamental human and spiritual values without which human coexistence will not be better nor bring good to future generations. May the Blessed Virgin Mother of the God of the church intercede with her maternal intercession so that the Holy Spirit will enlighten the minds of the cardinal electors and help them agree on the election of a Pope that our time needs.
BURNETT: Beautiful image there as we have been listening to Cardinal Re with a homily as I am here with Chris Lamb. You know you have spent a quarter century covering the Vatican, Popes. A very powerful homily and some very clear message even there at the very end as anyone listening just heard and help them agree the Cardinals in this room on the Pope that our time needs. LAMB: Yes that's right and it's obviously something that the Cardinals have been discussing in their meetings the need for a Pope that can speak to the world today that can go beyond the confines of the Catholic Church.
I thought it was interesting that Cardinal Re touched on some of the main discussions that had taken place amongst the Cardinals. This different discussion that was going on between whether the next Pope should emphasize unity or diversity.
The unity people wanting someone who might go in a different direction to Francis and the diversity people wanting continuity with Francis. What Cardinal Re said is that unity does not mean uniformity but a communion in diversity. So I think in this homily pointing the Cardinals to I think to continue with what Francis has started a clear message there and also reflecting I think on this idea of service.
He talked about Jesus at the Last Supper washing the feet of his disciples. Of course that was something that Francis sought to reenact every Easter and so that's a powerful image that the Pope must be someone of service which Francis was. I think that's also something that's on the Cardinals minds to choose a Pope who will embody that service.
BURNETT: Well that and that washing of the feet perhaps one of the most profound images of Pope Francis and you cannot forget whether it was prisoners or that there was no one beneath that act of grace.
Father Beck as you heard that homily from Cardinal Re did you hear the same clear message that Chris is describing?
BECK: I did. I did. Only love can change the world and the example as we just said was the washing of the feet and Cardinal Re stressed it's with no discrimination.
Remember when Pope Francis went to the prison to wash the feet of prisoners and then Muslim women that was something that had never been done before.
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That was with no discrimination and so there were these lot of references to Pope Francis in what he was saying.
He said that there's no self-referential aspect to the love.
And also what Chris was just saying that whole question of unity or diversity and unity not meaning uniformity. Some are saying that Pope Francis was a divider and that we have to get back to more stringent doctrine and dogma and that that will be the unifying element.
But the other thought is and Pope Francis's thought is that no it doesn't mean uniformity that there's communion in diversity and Cardinal Re again stressed that. And I think that's going to be a primary theme on the minds of the Cardinals during this voting. What does that mean? What does it mean to hold the church as one and
yet it be diversified and inclusive and expand and go to the peripheries as Pope Francis has said he wanted to do. And he reminded them that in that Sistine Chapel the judgment scene is going to be looking down upon you and that you have an obligation to present those supreme keys to the right hands and to make sure you do.
So I thought it was really a reflective homily of the values of Pope Francis and also kind of a warning to the Cardinals to take this task very seriously.
BURNETT: Kim it was also interesting that very, as he began the homily, he talked about a difficult and complex turning point in history, right? There was no -- it was connected to the outside world that we live in which was something that did define Pope Francis, right? That he didn't keep the Vatican, you know, unto itself, he talked about world events this seemed to be in some senses an acknowledgement that that must continue.
KIM DANIELS, DIRECTOR, GEORGE TOWN UNIVERSITY'S INITIATIVE ON CATHOLIC SOCIAL THOUGHT: Exactly Erin I completely agree I think it started with this idea of the people of God that that's who the church is not just this idea of the Cardinals who are going to be in the room but the holy faithful people of God. And then it was such a Francis homily in the sense of it's looking outward not inward. We're not a self- referential church and this idea of universal human fraternity speaking to world challenges. And what does the Catholic church have to offer? It has to offer this idea that love is the only force capable of changing the world.
BURNETT: It is, Chris, worth just reflecting in a moment if anyone is watching around the world or you're waking up in the U.S. to this, just to say that we do not live in a world where people say love is the only force capable of changing the world.
We live in a world where India and Pakistan are on the on the verge of war. The largest land war in Europe since World War II. Talk of annexing Canada in the U.S. We live in a world of powerful unkindness and to say something like love -- to talk about love this way is not something people hear much.
LAMB: No and I think that the Cardinals are very conscious that the papacy is a moral voice in the world stage that does seek to stand for that value of love. Which is at the heart of the Christian message. And I thought it was also striking that Cardinal Re said that the church needs a pope who knows how best to awaken the consciences of all and the moral and spiritual energies in today's society. That sense the pope has to go out has to preach the message of the gospel which at its heart is love, as you were saying.
BURNETT: Something so basic and yet to be honest in the world we live in something that is often frankly mocked. And to have it here held up, Kim, is is a wonderful thing, whatever your religion may be.
We are we are listening - just so everyone understands in this -- right now to the prayer of the faithful as they are preparing for the Eucharist.
DANIELS: Absolutely, this idea, again, it's such a radical Christian idea that love is essential to every conversation even world conversations and now right now we again are headed into the Eucharistic part of the liturgy and the most solemn part.
LAMB: We're going to have having the prayers of the -- universal prayers of the faithful. Interesting there's going to be one prayer said in Chinese for the pope. So I think that's significant. Of course, Francis during his papacy tried to build bridges with China and to -- he did he signed a quite a controversial deal with the Chinese government over the appointment of bishops. But this idea that the church's message goes beyond just Europe it was very important to Francis. So he got that reflected.
BURNETT: Yes, and may I ask as I see here also, to Kim and Chris here, I see Portuguese, Swahili, it looks like it may be Malay as well as as Chinese, the significance of what is chosen, Kim?
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DANIELS: You know, what's so interesting is that the Catholic Church is the most multicultural and multilingual institution in the world.
And that's what you see right here. We are bringing together faiths from -- people from all around the world, languages from all around the world. That's what this is about.
BURNETT: And Father Beck, in the choices here, obviously, there are choices that must be made on such a thing of which language, but it is interesting, again, French, Swahili, Malay, Portuguese, and as Chris was just emphasizing, Chinese as well, and German, it looks like.
BECK: Yes, certainly stressing the universal nature of the church. And what the prayers are saying is important, too. One of the prayers is for the Cardinals who will elect the new pope.
One of the prayers is that all may work for goodness and justice and concord. One is for the oppressed, those oppressed by hatred and violence and anxiety and despair. Some of the stuff you were just speaking about, Erin, that is occurring in our world.
And finally, there is a prayer for deceased Pope Francis, whose spirit is certainly hovering over this mass and will be hovering over this conclave.
BURNETT: In German, so Chris, can you talk about, obviously, we just saw a woman give the prayer in Chinese. Do we know about the individuals who have been chosen to have this very important role?
LAMB: We don't have the names, but they are people the Vatican know, living in and around the Vatican. And of course, the Vatican is a kind of multilingual place as well, people who speak lots of different languages from all over the world. So we heard the lady there saying the prayer in Chinese for the pope, so quite significant. BURNETT: So, Kim, now in a rite familiar to Catholics anywhere, preparation for the Eucharist for communion. And in this moment, the communion that we are about to see for the Cardinals, you know, as they will come up and get the body and blood of Christ. What does this moment mean for them?
A moment that, again, is so ordinary. And yet on this particular day out of the conclave is quite an extraordinary one.
DANIELS: Exactly. And you just said it. It's the extraordinary behind the ordinary. That is the essence of the Eucharist. That is the essence of the sacraments.
The other thing I want to note here is that we are a faith that is embodied, right? You have the smell of the incense, the sound of the bells, you have the bread and the wine. And it's something that unifies us again around the world, the Eucharist right here.
LAMB: And when you think of the incense rising up, you also think of the smoke that's going to rise up from the chimney. That idea of the smoke signal is deeply rooted in the human quest for the divine or the human expression of the prayer for the divine.
BURNETT: So, Chris, as the Cardinals are here, they will receive the Eucharist. When this Mass concludes, the next thing will be, of course, being taking the oath to be sworn in to the conclave itself. So what happens after this Mass before then?
There is they go back to Santa Marta for lunch.
LAMB: They'll go back to Santa Marta. I imagine they'll maybe have a siesta or two. Some of them may do that.
They'll get ready for this very solemn moment when they process into the Sistine Chapel, which will be another kind of prayer service. And that's taking place later on today. So the Santa Marta, of course, is a guesthouse residence that was built specifically for housing Cardinals taking place in the conclave.
It was built by John Paul II. He commissioned it. Previously, the Cardinals had stayed in the Apostolic Palace in very cramped rooms, and it was really not fit for purpose.
So John Paul II built this guesthouse for the Cardinals to stay. And of course, that also features in Conclave, the movie, in quite an accurate way.
BURNETT: In quite an accurate way, as you say. And Father Beck, to think about this, again, the extraordinary and the magnificence and yet also the ordinary behind it, that these are 133 human beings, older men who are going to make this decision.
For many who have just seen the Conclave movie, though, there is that, you know, that they wake up sort of in a dorm-like situation, right? And they get up together and they have breakfast together, the mass, lunch together, together, until they make their choice.
BECK: Yes, and of course, they have discussions during that period.
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There is some side barring, and we can't delude ourselves that there are political factions, there are influences, there are outside influencers who have tried before they go into the secrecy of the Conclave to make their positions known. We've been reading about some of that in the press.
There are some groups from the United States who have coincided with a celebration in Rome during this week who have been trying to make their own influence known.
So, we can't pretend that these are not human beings that will be in some way influenced. However, I think the prayer is that they can get beyond themselves, beyond even those who would try to influence them, to something deeper, that they really believe that why they do this ministry and why they've been called to it, as I said earlier, is a vocation. And that they need to respond to what is best for the church, for the world, that that is their task as shepherds.
And they really, I don't think, would be here for all of this time in spending this much time of their lives doing what they do simply to be in privileged positions. I mean, many of these men have worked in missionary fields for years, have devoted themselves in service, have worked among the poor. As we know, so many of them come from nations that have never been represented before, far-flung countries that are really poor and destitute.
So, many of these men have seen what the world needs and what the church needs, and they bring all of that experience and all of that concern to this voting and to this time of prayer. So, despite the fact that we will have the politics, I really believe that ultimately the prayer is that the goodness and the will of the Spirit prevails.
BURNETT: Yes. Chris, I am curious, as you look at the 133 Cardinals who are now about to receive communion, they were here for the funeral, most all of them? Were they all here? Did some go home? I mean obviously, this is conversations that go over long periods of time, but how long have they all been together?
LAMB: Well, the majority of them have been here since the Pope died and then, of course, they arrived. But to be honest with you, they have come in drips and drabs, and right up until just recently, we still hadn't had a full cohort of them. Obviously, some of them are working in different parts of the globe, and they obviously have responsibilities in their diocese.
But a large number were here, obviously, for the funeral, and then they've come in for the meetings.
BURNETT: Kim.
DANIELS: You know, what I'm struck by is that so many of them were at this gathering, two-, three-year gathering called the Synod, which is this process that Pope Francis started to make the Church more welcoming, a listening church that includes more people and thus has more people participating, a deeper communion offer mission. Almost half of the cardinal electors were here, and the contrast between the sort of formal speeches in these meetings over the past weeks and what they experienced with women, with laypeople, a very close and personal engagement is going to really affect, I think, what happens in these next days.
LAMB: Because some of the Cardinals don't know each other very well. The Synod, as you mentioned, was an opportunity for them to meet each other, but we know that the Cardinals, when they've been meeting, they've had name badges so that they could identify --
BURNETT: They've had name badges.
LAMB: Yes, because, you know, Francis appointed Cardinals from 71 countries all over the world, and they didn't know each other. They don't know each other. I think they've obviously had time now to familiarize themselves with each other. But, yes, it does have that sense of a group that is kind of from all over the globe who don't know each other that well.
DANIELS: And yet some of them got to meet each other. You know, we're here in Rome for the month of October for the last two years, working seven hours a day, five-plus days a week. And again, in an atmosphere that was more informal and able to get to know each other, talk in an informal way.
I think that will affect some of the relationships that were built. And I know that they'll bring that in most of all as an experience of the people of God in a broader sense.
BURNETT: Yes, it is, though, Chris, I don't want to liken it too much to a political election. But in a political election, people say a lot of things to get elected. But there is a platform.
You know what someone stands -- where they stand on many issues, at least where they say they stand. And here it seems kind of amazing that a lot of these Cardinals are having to go off, in a sense, you know, little cheat sheets to understand where some of the supposed front runners -- and we'll see if they really are -- actually stand on crucial issues.
LAMB: That's right. I mean, I reported this dossier on the cardinal candidates, the main cardinal candidates.
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