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CNN Live Event/Special
CNN Saturday Morning Table for Five. Some in Republican Party Propose Raising Taxes on Wealthy Americans; President Trump and His Family Raise Ethical Questions by Seeming to Profit Personally from His Presidency; President Trump Proposes Reopening Alcatraz to House America's Worst Criminals; President Trump Proposes Renaming Persian Gulf as Arabian Gulf; Bill Gates Criticizes Elon Musk for Ending USAID through Department of Government Efficiency; Senator Bernie Sanders Criticized for Using Private Jets to Fly to His Fighting Oligarchy Rallies. Aired 10-11a ET.
Aired May 10, 2025 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:00:36]
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, the more Donald Trump shakes the economic globe, the more liberal he sounds. But are Republican hearts also bleeding?
Plus, from resurrecting rocks --
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: Nobody has ever escaped from Alcatraz. It just represented something strong having to do with law and order.
PHILLIP: -- to changing scenery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- referring to the Persian Gulf as the Arabian Gulf.
TRUMP: America's pitchman is spending a lot of his time turning the tide.
Also, revenge of the nerds. On the day Bill Gates says he's giving away his money, he accuses Elon Musk of taking it away from the poor.
And if you're fighting the oligarchs, should you do it by living like them?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I-VT): You think I'm going to be sitting on a waiting line at United waiting while 30,000 people are waiting?
PHILLIP: Bernie's public defense for flying private.
Here in studio, Chuck, Todd. Ashley Allison, Josh Rogin and Melik Abdul.
It's the weekend. Join the conversation at the "TABLE FOR FIVE".
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Good morning. I'm Abby Phillip in Washington. Let's get right to what Americans are talking about.
Is Donald Trump an economic liberal? It's no excuse that he spent most of his life on the blue side of issues. But now that he is in charge of the economy again, he's telling people to do with less for the greater good. He wants to control everything from prices to interest rates, and he keeps promising things like no taxes on tips without revealing how he'll pay for it. Now he's saying he's OK with Congress raising taxes on the rich.
Now we are all old enough to remember that's hardly a conservative value.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONALD REAGAN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: By lowering everyone's tax rates all the way up the income scale, each of us will have a greater incentive to climb higher.
GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Read my lips. No new taxes.
(CHEERING)
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Today I am sending to Congress my plan to provide relief to all income taxpayers.
SARAH PALIN, (R) FORMER ALASKA GOVERNOR: Senator Obama has an ideological commitment to higher taxes. It's like he just can't help himself.
JOHN BOEHNER (R), FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: The American people don't want us to raise taxes.
REP. MIKE JOHNSON, (R-LA) HOUSE SPEAKER: I'm not in favor of raising the tax rates because that's -- our party is the group that stands against that traditionally.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: In fact, Democrats have long been calling -- been called socialists for wanting to raise taxes at all, particularly on the wealthy. And that is exactly what conservative columnists called out Trump for just this week, calling him literally a socialist.
But Donald Trump, I mean, as we said there, he has been a liberal, a Democrat for a very long time. And so I guess it's not surprising that some of this is sort of like deep in his mind, and I think actually even on the tariffs. Tariffs are -- and being sort of skeptical of free trade is something that typically more progressives have been for. Yesterday, Friday in the oval office he used the word "redistribution" of wealth to defend -- seriously -- "redistribution" to defend the idea of taxing the wealthy to pay for his promises from the campaign. Chuck? CHUCK TODD, HOST, "THE CHUCK TODDCAST": Look, you are what --
political parties go two ways. You can tell your -- tell the people what you're for, and they'll decide to choose you, or you become what your party suddenly is, right. And the party that Donald Trump has created is a party that is for taxing the rich, is a party that is, he's put together a working class coalition. He's got a lot of union members who think, hey, we should protect this industry.
So, you know, what's interesting to me is that he's actually responding to the voters he's attracted to his tent. So what's interesting, it may be that Mike Johnson is the one that's out of touch, that there are these other Republicans who are still, sort of they were brought up in the old Republican Party, the pre-Trump party. Trump has always been who he is. He's been for tariffs forever and all this stuff. And I think this is the growing pains of this realignment that we've been witnessing.
I mean, Democrats, you know, it was Bill Clinton was the first Democrat to win voters who made over $100,000 a year. And that was a big deal at the time. There's been this shift over the last 30 years where the wealthier people have become more liberal voters, socially more liberal, and the working class has actually become a bit more culturally conservative, and now economic populist.
[10:05:06]
PHILLIP: Well, you know, I also wonder, like, how committed Trump is to this. I mean, OK, his tweet was from his post on Truth Social was, "Republicans should probably not do it, but I'm OK." I'm good if they do. So he's like here, there, and everywhere. But clearly this keeps coming back because he knows he's promised a lot, and he knows that it's not going to be paid for, and also that the tariffs are not going to be enough to pay for it.
JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, that's right. I mean, if you kick the tires on this thing, you see that there's a lot less there than meets the eye. He's proposing raising the income tax rate for people who make over $2.5 million a year from 37 to 39.6, which is exactly where it was before he was president the first time. And there's no real revenue in that and is nothing compared to when you're raising 100 percent tariffs on Barbies, which is the other thing that he promised to do today. And so the con is that he's presenting a plan that won't raise revenue as taking from the rich and giving to the poor, but the actual policy, which is tariffs, actually is a tax on the poor that goes to the rich. And therein lies --
PHILLIP: In which retribution is very accurate.
ROGIN: No one is going to accuse Trump of being Robin Hood here. I mean, the bottom line is that this is kabuki tax cuts, and the people over $2.5 million like Donald Trump, are not going to actually pay a significant amount of money.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think that this is what is a great political realignment is what is about to happen. Right now, you're, Todd, that for so long, the reason why Democrats were able to keep working class voters is because they had policies that are aligned with working class values, meaning that you need to have labor protections and be able to make a livable wage and not have to work three jobs just to get your two dolls, let alone 30 dolls that Donald Trump isn't going to let young people have.
So I think what Donald Trump is trying to do is placate to his audience, but that is actually not a conservative value. So the question is, are Democratic policies actually the right ones and they just haven't been explaining them to the voters and connecting to the voters correctly? I actually think that's a working theory. Is there a new political alignment where the far left and the far right stay where they are, and there's a new middle alignment? I think that's a working theory. Is Donald Trump really holding fast to anything he says? No, I think that's a working theory, too.
So three things can actually be true at the same time. And I actually think it will take some time to settle. And I don't think the outcome of the midterms will be determinative of where the final ending of this story lands.
MELIK ABDUL, MEMBER BLACK AMERICANS FOR TRUMP COALITION: You know what I'll say to this, and keeping with the realignment theme, I do believe that this is a political realignment. If you think of the Republican Party, we always go back to Reagan. No one ever talks about Bushism, either Bush, for that matter. It is Reagan. And so Donald Trump is the first generational political figure since Reagan. And so what we're probably talking about with this realignment is Trumpism. Trumpism very well may be much more populist, and it doesn't fit so nicely as someone who came to the party in 2016. I don't fit so neatly within the conservative box in the very same way that Donald Trump doesn't. And I think that is something that is more attractive to what I always saw was a much more rigid conservative party.
PHILLIP: Maybe I'll just take the I'll take the contrarian view.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: I don't think this is a realignment, because I don't think anything is being realigned. I think Trump is fundamentally opportunistic.
TODD: I totally agree. And if he pulled off the following, Abby, if he pulled off the following, which I think his voters would be popular, I think this would be popular overall, and he floated this, no income tax on those that make $200,000 or less and you raise taxes on people that make $1 million or more. If you poll that, that's a 70- 30 issue.
ALLISON: Totally, yes. But it ain't going to happen.
PHILLIP: It's not going to happen because, mark my words. There will be a phone call from one end of Pennsylvania avenue to the other. And by the end of that phone call, Donald Trump will be like, OK.
ALLISON: Thats why I said the midterms.
PHILLIP: Let's put it down.
ALLISON: Yes, because the midterms are playing into this also. And so they don't want to lose frontliners. The House majority is so slim that it would really disrupt all the plans that Donald Trump has.
ABDUL: But you wouldn't lose the base.
TODD: I don't think taxes is as much of a voting issue anymore, though.
PHILLIP: But well wait, wait, in what sense?
TODD: A swing voting issue. I just don't think that -- I think tariffs will be. I think the cost of living is. The actual -- that's what I mean. Like, whether you're getting a tax break or not I think it's more about what's the cost of your life.
PHILLIP: But didn't Republicans and Trump, but didn't Republicans and Trump run on continuing the tax cuts?
ALLISON: Yes.
PHILLIP: And arguing that Democrats were going to raise taxes?
ALLISON: Raise your taxes.
PHILLIP: I mean, to Chuck's point -- yes, but to Chuck's point, I mean, you're also right that Trump is bargaining that people will believe him when he says tariffs are not taxes.
[10:10:4]
I don't know, I just think people fundamentally understand that tariffs are taxes.
ROGIN: Yes. And by the time people actually go to the polls, the tariff pain will have kicked in, but the tax cut benefits won't be felt. And so if you're going with the vibes, tariffs are going to have a much bigger effect on many more people. And that's why that fake populism is so attractive, because you can say you're doing something, but it takes two years for anyone to find --
ALLISON: Let me just be clear. I don't think Donald Trump is realigning his political -- I'm saying that I think the voters may be, to Melik's point, there is no cookie cutter voter anymore. And if you think that there is -- I actually think taxes will be more important to a certain group of folks that are more Democratic leaning voters but are either didn't vote this election or are, like, what's going on, Dems? Like, fight for me, do something. Maybe not people who make less than $200,000, and maybe not people who make more than $2.2 million. But there is a new era of people who are starting to build wealth in a different way, and they are actually playing to win.
PHILLIP: Coming up next for us, is this the golden age of grift? Trump and his family very publicly benefiting personally from his presidency. So is it ethical? Is it legal? Plus, as Bill Gates announces that he's giving away his fortune, the
billionaire has some words for Elon Musk -- you're killing kids. We're going to discuss that.
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[10:16:11]
PHILLIP: A-hundred-and-ten days in, Donald Trump's golden age seems more for me and not for thee. He and his family are personally benefiting from his second presidency in ethically shocking ways. Just a few examples. His meme coins, including offers of a private dinner to VIPs with the president, his crypto venture that's boosted by administration policies, merchandise, including 2028 hats, and exclusive club with half-a-million-dollar entry fees. And his sons are making billion dollar deals in Dubai, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, nations that the United States has business with, let alone foreign policy. All of this despite spending the entire campaign train slamming Hunter Biden for profiting off of his father's name. The White House is rejecting claims that Trump has any conflict of interest here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I can assure you the president acts with only the interests of the American public in mind, putting our country first and doing what's best for our country, full stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And the subtext there is, just take our word for it. But Trump's children are making deals. He has a crypto coin that he himself launched between the election and the inauguration to also juice his net worth, and then is now using the presidency to further juice that meme coin. If there were ethics books that actually mattered in Washington, this would be on page one, probably.
ROGIN: Right, or ethics oversight organizations, most of them which Donald Trump has dismantled and fired everybody in the inspectors general, the people in the Justice Department that do public corruption. All of the checks and balances on public corruption have somehow vanished in the last three months, OK. And that's not a coincidence, OK.
Now, every CEO and foreign official that comes to Washington that I talk to is talking about the same thing. Who do I bribe? How do I bribe them? Can I bribe them all? Should I buy the coin? Should I invest in this fund? Should I show up at Mar-a-Lago? And the problem with that, of course, is that when the pardons come down, the Trump people will get the pardons, but the bribers, the people who paid the bribes won't get the pardons. And nobody knows where the line is, because a lot of this stuff is illegal, but some of it may not be.
PHILLIP: But who is going to prosecute it. I mean, I think that's --
ROGIN: If they lose, if the Justice Department turns back to the other party, there tends to be some accountability when the government switches if it switches in 2026 or in 2028, you could see some accountability. But again, if you're paying the bribe, you're not -- you don't get that Trump get out of free card unless you pay the extra, extra bribe, you know.
PHILLIP: Melik, I mean, how do you square this away with the obsession with Hunter Biden, which I'm not discounting, by the way. I'm just saying, like, how are you consistent if you don't also think that this is corruption?
ABDUL: It sounds as if you're suggesting, or asking, are people hypocrites? Well, of course Republicans are going to be hypocrites in this in the same way that Democrats were, despite the fact that we had evidence that Hunter Biden was making money because of his, well, we'll say we are assuming because of his last name, the money that he was getting through Burisma, the conversations that we got, at least through the WhatsApp messages, of him trying to shake down the Chinese businessmen.
Now, I'll say it does not look good for Republicans and Donald Trump, of course, because of the reason that you said, because we spent so much time focused on Hunter Biden, even though we had some real evidence that Hunter Biden was --
ALLISON: Isn't this more out in the open, though? I mean, Trump is brazen --
(CROSS TALK)
ABDUL: And it is a much different way than what Hunter Biden was doing, like Donald Trump is being.
And I'll say as far as dismantling the Office of Government Ethics, there are still institutions, mechanisms within government to go after these types of things.
ROGIN: They're failing.
ABDUL: Well, but we don't know if it's illegal. From what I'm reading, none of what Donald Trump is doing thus is illegal. Are they hypocritical? Sure.
[10:20:00]
ALLISON: All I know is as a staff person in the White House, you are taught, you know, well, when you're a child, you know right from wrong.
ABDUL: Yes, you've got to sign off on the form.
ALLISON: But when you are working in government agencies, you know the ethics. And you don't just do it one time. You do it every year. You go through an ethics training where you have to sit and you have to watch it. Everyone that has a dot-gov email address.
The issue is to your point, it's like he's fired a lot of the folks, the folks that he might not have fired, I think they are living in fear that they could be fired if they do start to go after it.
I think the question that maybe -- I'll just make an assumption that people are like, well, why does it matter? Why can't the president do it? It's because to what end? The goal of being a public official, public, not a private. You could go be work at a Fortune 500 and do whatever you want to do. Well, don't break the law. But you know what I mean. But if you are a public official, you should be doing it for the service of the people you represent and not for your pocketbook. Now, when you leave office, go make money. But while you're working and I am paying your salary, I don't want you to have conflict of interest.
TODD: That's just a straight up kleptocracy that he's creating. And I don't use the word lightly. The Republican Party right now is a kleptocracy. He has not turned the country into a kleptocracy yet.
Now, the problem you have here is, is you're right, it's not illegal for the president or his family or the vice president. But if a cabinet secretary were doing this, it actually would -- because, you know, Congress doesn't have the same -- you know, there's actually tighter control, what you're saying with staffers. This wouldn't be allowed if Howard Lutnick were doing this and his sons were doing this. This would actually be a bigger potentially legal exposure for him, which is part of the, you know, this is part of the problem of our ethics laws.
Now, what did the founders --
ROGIN: -- on some of the deals?
TODD: What did the founders give us? The founders, you say who could prosecute? Well, there's only one there's only one entity that could prosecute the president for this, and it's Congress, right? That's why we have the impeachment situation. That's not going to happen.
But I will tell you, this is worse than teapot dome. This is worse than Watergate. This is straight up what's happening here on this crypto world. And I don't think we know -- look, I think eventually all of this crypto business is going to lead to a giant scandal here. Whether Trump escapes it like he escapes everything else, that may be the case, but other people are going to pay a heavy price for this.
We didn't even have time to mention the $40 million to Melania Trump for a documentary, or all the other ways, as you suggested, that all of these corporate entities are trying to figure out, OK, how do we put money in the pockets of anyone whose last name is Trump? That's part of the picture, too. And we'll see how this ends up shaking out.
Coming up next, Trump wants to rename another body of water, and he wants to reopen one of Americas most infamous symbols, Alcatraz. We'll discuss.
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[10:27:09] PHILLIP: No man is an island, but some are obsessed with them. As Donald Trump teases a takeover of Greenland, he is now setting his sights on the famous one off the San Francisco Bay. The president wants to reopen Alcatraz to house America's most ruthless criminals. And it's a tough and expensive ask considering that it's been a deteriorating museum for decades.
But it's not just symbols that he's become obsessed with. It's renaming things. The Gulf of Mexico, the Gulf of America, Mount McKinley. Now he's planning to call the Persian Gulf the Arabian Gulf next week. The move is more than just a superficial gesture. It is a geopolitical football. And luckily, we have Josh Rogin here to explain why on earth this has gotten to the top of his agenda.
ROGIN: No, I think it's a distraction. I think he's trolling many countries at once. I don't think the people in the region are really paying attention because they're going to call it whatever they're going to call it. I think that -- I heard that -- I saw a meme that they were going to -- he was going to change the name of the Saint Andrea's fault to the Joe Biden fault. And he's -- right. So, I mean, I think it's the things that Trump does to distract us from the really other things that he is trying to do on the world stage.
I mean, he's going to Saudi Arabia. What's he going to do in Saudi Arabia? He's going to change the rules over A.I. chips so that the Saudis and the Emiratis can have the best stuff, and he's going to make these huge business deals that are going to affect the future of communications and computing. And the flashy thing is, oh, we're going to change the name of the body of water, which nobody really cares about. So --
PHILLIP: Well, here's what the Iranian foreign minister said. "While any shortsighted step in this connection will have no validity or legal geographical effect, it will only bring the wrath of all Iranians from all walks of life and political persuasions in Iran, the U.S., and across the world."
ROGIN: Right, as he's trying to negotiate a deal with Iran. So it does have a destructive effect.
PHILLIP: Trolling, yes. Maybe trolling, but perhaps at an unnecessary price. I mean, I'm not --
ABDUL: I don't think that it's trolling. I think that this is just part of Donald Trump. Donald Trump is always going to give you more than what you need, whether it's -- whether it's Donald Trump as the Pope, whether it's Donald Trump as, you know, him muscled up. Gulf America, you know, this is -- he does all of this stuff. And keep in mind, this is within the same week that Donald Trump had a very good week. He got the deal with the U.K. He met with what the British prime minister. All of these were very good moments for Donald Trump, even when it comes to the upcoming conversations with China. Like, he's doing all of that, in addition to maybe it is trolling in a way --
PHILLIP: Or distracting, perhaps.
ABDUL: But I think he has a lot of good stuff to work with here.
PHILLIP: I could buy that argument, that it's just more stuff, more stuff.
TODD: Alcatraz came -- look, the interview on "Meet the Press" didn't go well for him, I think, when you're -- when the big headline was, I don't know if I'm supposed to follow the Constitution, right.
[10:30:00]
And suddenly, instead of that being the thing, oh, let me throw up this Alcatraz thing. I do think sometimes I'm with you. It's just it's, what do they call it? Flak, you know, to distract the fighter jets. What are you shooting at?
ALLISON: We cannot take the bait.
TODD: I completely agree, but he's obsessed with being in history.
PHILLIP: I was going to say.
TODD: He wants -- he really is afraid that he is not going to be more than one page in the history book. And I promise you, guess what, buddy? You're probably, maybe you'll be two because you were impeached twice, but you're not, no president ever lives as long in the history books as they think they will.
PHILLIP: Yes. That's true, but you're so right about that, because maybe it's all these things at once, right? Trump wants to be a historical figure. And in his mind, it's acquiring territory. It's renaming things.
ROGIN: That's how people remember presidents. They got territory, really. The Louisiana purchase.
PHILLIP: Yes. He really would love to be on Mount Rushmore. I think he's maybe realized that that's like a little bit tough of a sell. But this is important to him.
ALLISON: OK. To be fair, I think if you run for the president of the United States, you want to be memorialized in history. I just think that's like part of the --
ABDUL: For everybody.
ALLISON: For everybody, right?
ROGIN: Weve never had a non-narcissist.
ALLISON: Thats right. Right.
ABDUL: It just doesn't exist.
ALLISON: If you say those words out of your mouth, you're on a different playing field than most folks, right? That being said, it's how you do it. He doesn't actually care how he does it. It could be conquering territories. It could be crypto. It could be being the first --
ROGIN: The $250 bill. What happened to that?
ALLISON: It doesn't matter as long as his name is written in history, I refuse -- I said this the day he was inaugurated, I will say it now. I refuse to be fooled by distractions. I'm going to keep my eye on the ball. There are terrible things that are happening and we are getting closer to the cliffs, and I refuse to walk off of it by being distracted by the little trial balloons he throws up.
PHILLIP: Well, you're going to have a lot of work ahead of you.
ALLISON: Yes, my brain is tired.
ABDUL: We're barely 100 days.
ALLISON: I'm tired.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: Coming up next, as Bill Gates reveals that he is giving away all of his money, he's also delivering attacks on Elon Musk and accusing him of killing poor children.
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[10:36:48]
PHILLIP: What do you do if you have more money than God? As the Chili Peppers once declared, "Give it away, give it away, give it away now." Bill Gates says that he will donate $200 billion before he dies. And he's using this announcement to take shots at the man who passed him on the superrich list. That is that Microsoft founder is blasting Elon Musk and his dismantling of USAID. Quote, "The picture of the world's richest man killing the world's poorest children is not a pretty one. Musk should go in and meet the children that have now been infected with HIV because he cut."
This is not a new moment, obviously, for these two, I'm sure, because Elon Musk has always been a little bit on the outside of this billionaire's club, like the Warren Buffetts and Bill Gateses of the world have been giving away their money for a long time. But he, I don't know. I mean, I don't think this matters to Elon Musk, but it's an allegation that's not just rhetoric. Bill Gates is involved in actually saving people's lives, and he's saying this.
ALLISON: Yes. I mean, that's why when USAID was closed, people were besides themselves. It wasn't because we were trying to protect the federal workers there. It was because we were trying to protect, one, our soft political power, but also children. We do a lot of good as America in other parts of the world as well here domestically. And so it was troubling. It still is troubling. And the consequences, it won't just be for four years. The behavior that in the dismantling of USAID will have lifetime, generational consequences on the continent of Africa and southeast Asia and Central and South America. And so I appreciate, I think, hey, if I could be a billionaire, I would be a billionaire. But it's the type of billionaire you are. And it's not, you know all about me all the time, which Elon Musk seems to be taking that posture.
PHILLIP: Yes.
TODD: It just strikes me as almost sometimes that I feel like he's not alone in Silicon Valley. There's some Silicon Valley types who almost view us humans as in the way of advancement. And I almost think that Elon Musk sees us almost like, oh, these, the peons are in the way, right? The takers, right, the takers versus makers thing. And I think he really is almost a true sort of -- he believes that he's a maker. And therefore, you know, we shouldn't -- that they're only going to be a drag on our planet's ability to survive, right. Like I think he's just got a very warped sense of humanity a little bit, just on how he goes about.
And again, I say this, he's not alone. There's a lot of this weird thinking on Silicon Valley. But I have to tell you, to your point, you know, in the whole, like, this is why they hate us, you know, like this stuff, there's hatred in Latin America of people over the age of 60 who are still angry at things that they believe America did or didn't do for them that goes back 60 years, 50 years. This stuff leaves a huge mark. The hatred of America coming out of Africa 20 years from now, we will trace this moment.
PHILLIP: And it will be worse than that because it won't just be, oh, we hate America, but China will already be in there --
TODD: Strategically, yes.
PHILLIP: -- seeding a completely different worldview that that we're going to have to contend with.
I just want to show you, Elon Musk responded to Bill Gates saying "Gates is a huge liar."
[10:40:00]
But I don't know, where is the lie in the fact that USAID cuts really have had a profound impact on lifesaving activities that the U.S. government has been involved in for decades?
ROGIN: Yes, there's a ton of evidence that real people died because a vital humanitarian assistance that the U.S. had committed to paying for, had already paid for. In some cases, the food was sitting in a warehouse, and they fired the people delivering the food from here to there, and the food rotted while people starved, OK. And that happened. And that's a fact.
Now, the broader thing that you guys are talking about, which is the destruction of the humanitarian industry, which was underpinned by U.S. power for 100 years, that will affect millions of people in the decades to come, because they didn't do anything to transition or prepare or have any contingencies. They just turned the spigot off of lifesaving aid for millions of people, which is crazy, reckless, and will have drastic consequences. So yes, I think the evidence shows that Bill Gates was right. And that
and what Bill Gates said in that interview was interesting. He said, well, I know more about USAID and Elon didn't know about it. And he's kind of being nice because either Elon didn't know about it, which is like one set of problems, or he knew about it and didn't care.
PHILLIP: I don't think he knew about it. I think Elon has been very transparent --
ROGIN: Or he didn't care enough to know about it.
PHILLIP: -- that he didn't know a lot about what any of the things did.
ROGIN: Everyone is like, hey, this is happening.
PHILLIP: So he got in there, and he was like, oh, look. They're doing this and they're doing that. And he doesn't understand the context.
And look, I think it's so important for, especially Washington, to learn a little bit from the business world because this place doesn't run right. That's 100 percent true. But at the same time, not all of these things are just line items. I think there's a lack of understanding that it's not just, obviously, the lives that are being saved, but that when you spend a little bit of money here, it might actually save you a lot of money further down the road. And I think the whole DOGE project seems to completely miss that point.
ABDUL: Yes. So I, you know, I've had my criticisms of Elon Musk and DOGE. I'll say, if Bill Gates is watching, if you need a direct deposit slip to send some of that money to, I'll send you mine.
But, you know, it's another billionaire criticizing Elon Musk. There is the world is no -- at least the States, there were no short of criticism of Elon Musk. I don't take much of what he's saying seriously. Now, from what I understand, some of those, and I don't know which specific programs he's referencing, but some of those are going to be moved to other agencies like the State Department. So it isn't as if that all funding to Africa is being eliminated. But there will be some hiccups.
But to your point, and many people have talked about before, whether or not they should have taken a scalpel, whether or not, or whether a sledgehammer. Well, when you're taking a scalpel, you're much more likely to make these types of errors, which --
(CROSS TALK)
PHILLIP: You mean cuts. There are cuts.
ROGIN: The families who lost children would not consider these hiccups. Children to the people who love them are not hiccups. And you could see how they might feel some type of way about you calling --
ABDUL: It reminds me of --
ROGIN: These are not hiccups. These are human being. These are human beings.
ABDUL: -- Republicans want to throw grandmother off the cliff to whatever. This is the type of imagery that people use. There's a lot of hyperbole. People may be, people may be impacted by it. And that's very unfortunate. But to blame Elon Musk for killing people, for killing kids and all of that type of stuff, it's the hyperbole --
ALLISON: I get, I understand, but what is the fact pattern? Elon Musk is in charge. Elon Musk makes a decision. That decision closes the agency. When that agency is closed, children don't get preventative drugs or the drugs they need to keep them alive. And so those children die. So that means Elon Musk, when you take three steps back, is the reason those children are dead.
The reason why I actually don't mind that Bill Gates is making this commentary is because of the humanitarian aid he uses with his own money. He takes -- the reason why he's giving $200 billion away is because he's trying to make the world a better place. Do I think that America's my tax dollars should just be thrown away and used carelessly? No. But I also believe that in this week, I've been reflecting a lot. We elected a Pope. As a Christian, I don't feel like our country is living by Christian values right now. And we're just carelessly saying, I don't --
ABDUL: Nobody cares about Bill Gates's opinion on this, I doubt very seriously.
PHILLIP: Many people do because the Gates Foundation --
ABDUL: Those who are in opposition to Elon Musk here.
PHILLIP: The Gates Foundation is maybe the most significant nongovernmental organization involved in saving peoples.
ABDUL: Look, that is a an issue.
PHILLIP: So just in the world of reality, he's an important figure in this particular conversation.
Coming up next for us, Bernie Sanders facing accusations of hypocrisy after flying his private jet, or a private jet, to his Fight the Oligarchy rallies. We'll debate that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:49:30]
PHILLIP: Can you fight the billionaires from coach? The answer is apparently no from Bernie Sanders, who's getting heat for flying private jets to and from his Fighting the Oligarchs rally with AOC. Check out this explanation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I-VT): When's the last time you saw Donald Trump during a campaign mode at national airport? BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: No, no, no, it doesn't. But he's also
not fighting the oligarchy.
SANDERS: No. You run a campaign and you do three or four or five rallies in a week. The only way you can get around to talk to 30,000 people.
[10:50:02]
You think I'm going to be sitting on a waiting line at United waiting while 30,000 people are waiting? That's the only way you can get around. No apologies for that. That's what campaign travel is about. We've done it in the past. We're going to do it in the future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: According to the FEC, the Sanders campaign committee has spent more than $200,000 on his private jets just in the last quarter. That is actually quite a lot of money. I have to say this, my very first story out of Washington for "Politico" was about a politician, Chuck Schumer, flying on private jets, and I am here today to tell the tale. But which is not saying a lot for politicians. I mean, Chuck, tell me what the moment was in that answer that you thought, oh, this is going wrong.
TODD: The United thing, you know, because, we all like --
(LAUGHTER)
TODD: You're a man of the people. How dare I have to be with the people, right? That's what -- look, it's a cheap question. It's a smart-alecky question. So it wasn't a serious question. It was kind of trolling. But his answer was terrible. Like, you can't defend this answer. Hey, buddy, we all have to stand in line. We all have to do this. Even if you have one k privileges, you're still standing in line. You still have to do this. You've got to go through security.
PHILLIP: It definitely came across as like, I'm not going to stand in this line with peons.
ABDUL: Did you hear him? He mentioned Trump. Well, I'll remind him Donald Trump, doesn't own his plane. That is much different than Bernie Sanders going around on the plane. I think that this is something very, you know, Donald Trump -- and the point was right that Bret made is that he fights against the oligarchy and the rich. He wants to tax all of the rich. And a similar thing to even Bill Gates, who also flies around on his private plane. And he has these concerns about the environment. I think many people look at this and say, well, you're a hypocrite.
And I'll say to everybody at home, whether it's a president, whether it's Bernie, vice president, any politician will love to ride on a private plane, and they will probably do it until they can't stop doing it.
ROGIN: No one has asked the question, what's the carbon footprint of this private jet?
PHILLIP: I mean, private jets have a very bad --
ABDUL: Democrats as a party, they have those --
PHILLIP: I don't think -- I mean, I don't think he's wrong, though, that yes. I mean, he's campaigning, right? He's going from rally to rally. I've covered a lot of campaigns, everybody flies private, including the press, because you cannot make those stops commercial. But it was how the answer came out that I think made it an issue.
ALLISON: This is what I have said a long time, is that I don't actually have a problem with people being billionaires. It's the type of billionaire you are. I don't have -- I want to like, that's the American dream to start out in middle class and go up the economic ladder. I think when you're saying like there should be no billionaires. Well, billionaires fly on private jets. That is where the -- I understand what he was saying is like, it's a means to an end because he has to get a lot of places. But the whole story arc is like, either you fly like, what, coach, or make a --
PHILLIP: Schedule that allows --
ALLISON: Allows you to fly and don't hit as many places at once, or don't knock the billionaires.
TODD: I could argue the symbolism of going through. I'm old enough to remember John McCain grabbing his suitcase on his own, going and proving, hey, I'm not wasting money.
PHILLIP: Coming up next, the panel's unpopular opinions, what they're not afraid to say out loud.
But first, a programing note. Don't miss an all new episode of "Eva Longoria Searching for Spain." She'll be stopping in the country's vibrant and innovative culinary capital, Madrid. It airs Sunday night at 9:00 p.m. right here on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:58:00]
PHILLIP: We're back. And it's time for your unpopular opinions. You each have 30 seconds to tell us yours. Ashley, you're up.
ALLISON: OK, I love to go out to eat, and I feel like there are a lot of menu -- always on the menu type of meals that are not good. Branzino, no. Avocado toast, no. Artichoke dip, no. French toast. No, I said it. I stand by it. Ten toes down. Not good. Overrated. They can be removed from menus in the world would be OK.
PHILLIP: We're not going to brunch anymore. Chuck?
(LAUGHTER)
TODD: Look, the single greatest political election that I've never gotten to observe is a conclave. All right, I loved the young Pope. I loved the two Popes. You know what is a stupid movie? "Conclave." I know everybody else loved it. I liked half of it, and dumb ending. Dumb twist. It really disappoints me. Could have been a great movie. They chose not to.
PHILLIP: Wow. You know what, yes, I like that.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: Go ahead, Melik.
ABDUL: Everybody knows that the Met Gala was this week. The theme was black dandyism, and to me it was the easiest -- it was the easiest one. And I thought that most people there failed when it came to the idea of black dandyism. I didn't even like A$AS Rocky, who was one of the co-chairs. The idea that influencer Wisdom Kaye was not invited, who embodies black dandyism was a travesty. So didn't like most of what we saw from --
PHILLIP: I felt like some of these designers were just rebelling against the theme. They wanted to do their own thing.
ABDUL: Yes. It was easy.
PHILLIP: Go ahead.
ROGIN: Everyone says it's the golden age of TV with the streaming services. I don't think so. I watch everything, and every show is like two great episodes, and then three seasons of like, what did I just do with my 20 hours of streaming service? And I kind of feel like they're phoning it in. I think the A.I. is writing the scripts. And, you know, stop it. Just make one good show rather than -- and then the one show that I really liked, they killed off the hunkiest guy, and now it's not as good. So you guys know which one I'm talking about.
TODD: Name names here. You can't just like --
ROGIN: It's "The Last of Us." But I didn't want to spoil it in case people hadn't seen.
ALLISON: Spoiler alerts.
ROGIN: You can do better streaming services.
PHILLIP: Sorry guys, spoiler alert.
Everybody, thank you very much for being here and thank you for watching "TABLE FOR FIVE". You can catch me every weeknight, 10:00 eastern with our News Night roundtable, and any time on social media, X, Instagram, and TikTok.
In the meantime, CNN's coverage continues right now.
