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CNN Saturday Morning Table for Five. President Trump's Recent Pardons Draw Controversy; President Trump Comments on His Past Relationship with Sean "Diddy" Combs in Response to Question about Combs's Trial; Elon Musk Leaves His Government Position as Head of Department of Government Efficiency; Trump Administration Attacks Experts When They Disagree with Administration Policies; House Tax and Spending Bill Criticized for Increasing Deficit and Cutting Spending on Cancer Research; CBS Anchor Scott Pelley Claims in Commencement Speech that Free Speech Under Attack Currently in America. Aired 10- 11a ET

Aired May 31, 2025 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[10:00:32]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, is presidential power for sale? Why it pays to be in Donald Trump's fan club when the pardon parade begins.

Plus, the murder of expertise. MAGA ups the Orwell by telling Americans to reject the evidence.

Also, he came, he sawed, he smashed. And now Elon Musk bounces, but not without bruises.

ELON MUSK, CEO, TESLA: This is not the end of DOGE, but really the beginning.

PHILLIP: And free speech for me, but not for thee? The right's meltdown over an address that doesn't once mention MAGA or it's king.

Here in the studio, Scott Jennings, Cari Champion, Alyssa Farah Griffin, and Joanna Coles.

It's the weekend. Join the conversation at the "TABLE FOR FIVE".

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Good morning. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.

Here's a thought exercise for you in the form of a top ten list. One, how would MAGA react if Joe Biden commuted the sentence of a murderous gang leader? Two, how would MAGA react if Joe Biden considered pardoning a leftwing militia that plotted to kidnap a Republican governor? Three, how would MAGA react if Joe Biden accepted jets from a country he said supported terror? Four, how would MAGA react if Joe Biden used the office to openly enrich himself from crypto to hotels? Five, how would MAGA react if Joe Biden told conservative leaning universities what to teach, who to teach, or else?

Six, how would MAGA react if Joe Biden demanded millions from FOX for a bogus reason or he'll stop a business deal? Seven, how would MAGA react if Joe Biden introduced a bill that would not only add to the deficit, but also threaten Medicaid? Eight, how would MAGA react if Joe Biden waffled on standing up to Vladimir Putin, kept kicking the can down the road every two weeks. Nine, how would MAGA react if Joe Biden's White House said the courts have no role in how he governs? And ten, how would MAGA react if Joe Biden enlisted a billionaire who helped get him elected, let's call him George Soros, to then dismantle the government?

Because Donald Trump did all of that. And let's, just this week, we'll start with the pardoning spree. This is Joanna, one of the more Trumpian things. I mean, he started his term by pardoning January 6th rioters and now has gone on another pardoning spree, some of whom were convicted of white-collar crimes. He seems to be trying to send a very strong signal there, but also a rapper, a gang banger and gang leader. What's the theme for you?

JOANNA COLES, CHIEF CONTENT OFFICER, "THE DAILY BEAST": Well, I think the theme is really how does Donald Trump keep the attention on himself? I mean, we had a great podcast at "The Daily Beast" this week with the author Michael Wolff, who says that he, you know, Trump wakes up every morning and his only question is, how do I get attention today?

So in the high-low of it all, he's got a new rival slash enemy in Harvard, and now he's, you know, pardoning reality television people who were charged with fraud, with fraud. So he's got the high coverage, media coverage, attention. Now, he's got the low coverage. He's on high end news shows like this one, and then he's on E.T. and "Access Hollywood" for the Chrisleys, right?

So what he wants is attention. He'll do anything to get it. I actually don't think this will play very well with viewers, I think with viewers -- the voters.

PHILLIP: Viewers are also important.

COLES: I actually don't think it plays well with voters because people like to know what's right and wrong, and people like to know that people get actually their due, their comeuppance if they've done something wrong. But it's an attention getter.

PHILLIP: Scott, a lot of this is mixed signals from Trump. I mean, on the one hand, he says, put the drug dealers in -- actually, he says the death penalty for drug dealers. And then he commutes the sentence of Larry Hoover. On the one hand, he talks about Qatar being a sponsor of terrorism, but wants to take a plane from them. I guess maybe this is very Trumpian in the sense that it almost is like, are there principles at play here at all?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think every situation has its own individual details, and you could probably quibble over on the pardon, some of them, I think some of them are actually defensible, including Congressman Michael Grimm of New York, who suffered paralysis after he had already served his time.

[10:05:05]

So, you know, some of these were not all that different than what you might see another president do. The only difference was he's doing it early in his term. I mean, most presidents do these things on the way out the door, or maybe while they're on their way up to the capitol to see the next president being sworn in. And so I think with Trump, he just, when things get brought to his attention, he just does them. He makes decisions, he's decisive. He puts it out there and then let's the chips fall where they may.

Qatar, look, were in bed with these guys whether we like it or not. They do things we don't like. They do things we wish they wouldn't do. But we're in bed with them on military stuff, whether we like it or not, and national security stuff. So, I mean, but there are reasons to deal with them beyond just this plane issue, because they've obviously been in supporter of our military base there, and they buy military equipment from us.

PHILLIP: And Cari, believe it or not, Trump on Friday was asked about Diddy, of all things. OK, so let's just play it, if you haven't seen this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: I haven't seen him. I haven't spoken to him in years. He used to really like me a lot, but I think when I ran for politics, he sort of, that relationship busted up, from what I read. So, I don't know. I would certainly look at the facts. If I think somebody was mistreated, whether they like me or don't like me, it wouldn't have any impact.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: The thing ain't even over. The case is not over.

CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: We're on day, what, I think 12 of the case? I'm not quite sure what the day is, but it's very interesting that you bring this up. And I think the original question was, how would MAGA react?

I was a local reporter in West Palm Beach, and I would often go to Mar-a-Lago. I think I've shared this on this show before. And this was in a time when so many people I will mention are now canceled by society, Russell Simmons would have a charity event at Mar-a-Lago every year, and one of the biggest attendees that people would talk about on the island was one Diddy, or at the time, Puffy. And I used to watch and think that they had a really good relationship, referencing what he just said.

And obviously when he ran for politics, we saw that, Diddy said he -- there were many opportunities for Diddy to say he wasn't with him. But for Trump to even consider pardoning him to me is on a level of which that is so horrible -- and we don't even know if he's going to be, honestly, convicted, but it would be extremely devastating, not only just to people who have decided to pledge their support against domestic violence and abuse, but the fact that we know that Sean Combs has done so many things visually, how he has treated people, and this is coming from someone who was a fan of him, really disturbs me.

PHILLIP: Even putting aside the charges against him, I mean, I don't know, maybe I don't want to give Trump too much credit, but does he even know what's going on?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Honestly, seeing that clip give me PTSD if I want to say sometime spring of 2020, he was asked about Ghislaine Maxwell, and he said I wish her well or something along those lines.

PHILLIP: Very similar vibes.

GRIFFIN: Very similar vibes. This is -- A, it's playing out in the courts. We don't know where this is going to end up, but to even put your finger or signal where you're going to be is a mistake.

Here's what I say. Trump did a good thing by pardoning Alice Johnson. He did a good thing by putting Alice Johnson as his pardons are. This is somebody right, left, and center, a lot of people believe we have absolutely over sentenced people for minor or even some significant drug offenses, but you shouldn't spend the rest of your life behind bars because you may have had some of these drug offenses. Those are the kind of things he should be focusing on. Those are 80 percent issues, not white-collar crimes committed by, you know, celebrity, where are they, Bravo or "USA Today" celebrities, whatever they are.

CHAMPION: Whatever show it is.

(LAUGHTER)

GRIFFIN: Whatever the show it is. This is the kind of thing that I think it becomes hard for his supporters to defend.

CHAMPION: I think it makes sense. He wants to be on the high news show and the low news show. He wants to be a part of the news. I think it's very much all the time, all the time. I think it's very ego driven. And he's like, yes, people have asked me about it. I don't know much about -- referring to the Diddy case -- I don't know much about it, but I don't think anyone should be treated unfairly. And I'm like -- and I'm like, wait, who is being treated unfairly?

And to your point, do you know what is going on and what you are saying? It's cringeworthy.

JENNINGS: He never rules anything in or out. I mean, when he doesn't know what's going on or if something is still unfolding, I mean, this is a common trait. He never rules anything in or out definitively, and I wouldn't expect him to. And I also wouldn't expect him to be sitting around watching this trial all day.

PHILLIP: I'm sorry, but I would expect him --

GRIFFIN: To know.

PHILLIP: To know, A --

JENNINGS: Why?

PHILLIP: And to, B, rule out getting involved in the Diddy case, regardless of the outcome. That is a rule -- that is a thing that can be ruled it.

GRIFFIN: To be honest, though, knowing him, I'm not sure I think he's briefed on it. Like, I think he knows Puff Daddy and knows that he was kind of an icon in like the 90s and early 2000s. Yes, but I'm not sure that he's actually up to date on the fact that he is like, nobody wants to own him and he is somebody that most people are hoping gets justice.

COLES: And also, he's never going to have gone to one of those freak- offs because he's a germophobe, right. So I don't think he would like all that lube and baby oil around.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIP: I do think --

COLES: Early on a Saturday.

PHILLIP: -- with some of this stuff, I mean, Trump, it's the Fifth Avenue thing. I mean, he was basically like, I can do what I want --

[10:10:02]

CHAMPION: Whatever.

PHILLIP: -- on all of these topics. And he is doing what he wants because essentially no one is saying anything about it.

COLES: And truthfully it turns out he's right, right?

CHAMPION: He's absolutely right.

COLES: They're letting him get away with it. Yes, it's kind of interesting.

CHAMPION: And when he says these things, when he puts this in the atmosphere, in the zeitgeist, if you will, people are like, OK, Diddy is getting out. The rumor mill starts to churn, and people are thinking, OK, well, will that happen? Obviously, that's all talk and we don't know if that will ever happen. But in a case like this, in more particular, I would say I don't know. And he never says, I don't know. I have no idea what's going on. I can't talk about that right now. That's unfortunate.

PHILLIP: That is another option. I don't know enough about this. I'm not going to comment. JENNINGS: Well, to say, I'm going to take a look at it means maybe

we'll take a look at it and say, oh, this is ridiculous.

PHILLIP: All right, coming up next for us, after he dismantled the government and hurt his businesses, Elon Musk gets a key from Donald Trump, his DOGE legacy, and the reported drug use. That's ahead.

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[10:15:42]

PHILLIP: Well, that was fast. After occupying the United States government, the world's richest man is now returning to his quest to occupy Mars. Elon Musk is officially out after a tumultuous reign in the Trump administration. He ticked off cabinet members, got thousands fired, dismantled entire agencies, and didn't save anywhere near the $2 trillion that he promised. Here's a highlight reel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, CEO, TESLA: Some of the things that I say will be incorrect and should be corrected, so nobody is going to bat 1,000.

DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: He said, you know, they're trying to drive us apart. I said, absolutely.

MUSK: This is the chainsaw for bureaucracy. Chainsaw.

So if you have a pulse and two neurons, you can reply to an email.

Social Security is the biggest Ponzi scheme of all time.

It's literally like a golf cart that goes really fast.

You know, they say I wear a lot of hats. And.

(LAUGHTER)

MUSK: It's true. Even my hat has a hat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: That circus hurt his companies. But Donald Trump gave him quite the sendoff on Friday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: Elon is really not leaving. He's going to be back and forth, I think, I have a feeling. It's his baby, and I think he's going to be doing a lot of things. But Elon's service to America has been without comparison in modern history. Elon gave an incredible service, nobody like him. And he had to go through the slings and the arrows, which is a shame, because he's an incredible patriot.

(END VIDEO CLIP) PHILLIP: Well, that's the end for DOGE.

JENNINGS: Thats not true.

PHILLIP: Allegedly.

JENNINGS: It's not the end of DOGE.

PHILLIP: It's the beginning of DOGE. It's the end of DOGE. It's the end of Elon's DOGE.

I mean, I do think that DOGE and Elon's departure and his declaration that essentially this thing was harder than he anticipated, I think it tells you a lot about a lack of understanding of the problem to begin with, and an approach that was flashy, got a lot of headlines, but I'm not sure accomplished what he -- I mean, it did not accomplish what he promised. He said it was $2 trillion. Maybe it might be $100 billion or $200 billion. It's not even close.

GRIFFIN: And I think him leaving while Congress is considering the big, beautiful bill and seeing that a lot of what he cut is actually funded, and this is going to, while I actually support the bill, is going to add to the deficit. It's just a simple fact. I think that kind of underscored that his efforts and what he wanted to do probably are never going to be enshrined into law.

Listen, this is a win for Donald Trump that he's out. Elon Musk has a 37 percent approval rating. He is much less popular than Donald Trump is. And I think one of the things that started to tank the president's numbers in the first hundred days was all this sort of what's happening with the DOGE cuts, fear that some good service that you need was going to get slashed and you weren't going to find out about it until you needed something. So I think it's a welcome thing that he's leaving.

There are ways to tackle debts, deficits, and overspending or waste in government, and it was just never the way to do it, to have somebody who knows very little about the federal government other than receiving government contracts, being the one overseeing it.

CHAMPION: I'm like, how could this go wrong? Someone who knows anything -- doesn't know anything about the federal government is working in the federal government trying to make it better. This to me was a no-brainer. I felt like we were going to see this right away. I'm surprised it didn't come sooner.

But I also, I might disagree with your point. I do believe that Musk provided cover for Trump. And I think that now that musk is gone, or this is the beginning of DOGE or wherever he will place himself, we're going to see a lot of people have much more issue with Trump, and it will be louder and you'll have more issues with him. It won't be about Trump, it won't be about Musk anymore. It won't be -- you can't just pin all the problems on him. But we should have seen this coming. This is easier.

PHILLIP: Yes, he's kind of a meat shield in a way. JENNINGS: He should have seen it coming, because he took 130 day

appointment, and it's been about 130 days. So yes, I agree. You should have seen it coming. This was a temporary deal.

CHAMPION: I know, Scott. It was never temporary. I know --

JENNINGS: Yes, he literally was a temporary government employee.

BLACKWELL: Did Donald Trump -- did Donald Trump just say he's not gone? Did you not hear him say that? He said, this isn't the end. We'll see him. He'll be back, I think. Did you hear Donald Trump say that? The president say that.

JENNINGS: They're friends.

CHAMPION: Yes. So he'll be back in some form or fashion.

GRIFFIN: I think you can extend temporary government employees. This was the status, you're right.

COLES: To be fair to Scott, Elon did always say that he was there for two or three months. And I've heard him say it within the room when I heard him say it. He never saw this as a kind of long-term thing.

But we are all ignoring the most extraordinary metaphor. He's standing there with the president with a physical black eye.

(LAUGHTER)

[10:20:04]

COLES: This is the most extraordinary thing. You never see that.

PHILLIP: That's true, that blamed on his five-year-old.

COLES: Yes. When asked, he said he was playing with X, his child, not his social media platform, though that could have hit him too.

PHILLIP: What about what he has accomplished?

JENNINGS: Some cuts, but mostly, I think, symbolically the conversation that they have started about some of the stupidity and spending in the federal government, the need to find the dumbest things and get rid of it is extremely valuable. The project goes on. Russ Vought, the head of the Office of Management and Budget, will take up the reins of the DOGE effort now. And I think the plan has always been to instill a rolling sense of we have to be on the lookout for this forever. We can't just do it over two months and call it a day, obviously.

And by the way, it's probably easier to put people on Mars than it is to get Washington politicians to cut spending. And Elon found that out. But the project does need to continue. Almost $40 trillion in debt. It's not sustainable.

PHILLIP: Let me let me play what Elon said about the big, beautiful bill that, frankly, he says, is evidence that Republicans in Congress are not actually serious about cutting spending.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, CEO, TESLA: I was, like, disappointed to see the massive spending bill, frankly, which increases the budget deficit, not just decrease it, and undermines the work that the DOGE team is doing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I actually thought that when this big, beautiful bill came along, I mean, like everything he's done on DOGE gets wiped out in the first year.

MUSK: I think, I think a bill can be, can be, can be big or it can be beautiful, but I don't know if it can be both.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JENNINGS: I can attest to his disappointment. I interviewed him for the book that I'm writing, and this was around the 100-day mark. And I asked him, why are you here? I mean, this has been, you know, a crazy journey. And he said, I'm trying to figure out a way not to have America go bankrupt. But I asked him if there had been other people in Washington that he'd met that shared his zeal for cutting spending. And he only mentioned one person, Rand Paul of Kentucky. But he said, everybody says they want to cut spending until you give them a way to do it. So I do believe he's very disappointed that people didn't share his enthusiasm for trying to keep America from going bankrupt.

PHILLIP: But there's technicalities for why that is, right, because this is not -- they can't deal with discretionary spending in this reconciliation bill. But even separate and apart from that, I think that Elon also doesn't understand where government spending comes from, because if he did understand that, he would know from the get go that what he was doing was not going to make a dent in it. Entitlement spending, it is service on the debt. He doesn't even seem to express an understanding of that part after all this time.

GRIFFIN: Well, listen, were also not living in the Tea Party era of politics where it was about like being a fiscal conservative. Donald Trump, to his credit, did not run on I'm going to lower the deficits. I'm going to address the national debt. He simply didn't. He's talked about actually, in some ways expanding.

PHILLIP: Yes. He doesn't really care. He wants to get rid of --

GRIFFIN: He got elected that way. You really do have like Rand Paul left.

I would say this, though, Russ Vought is somebody who came up in that movement, knows how government works, knows how you actually go after the drivers of the debt. That is somebody who I think would have been the person that should tackle this. But the fact is, the appetite is not there in Congress where it happens, who has the power of the purse, to attack defense spending, entitlements, as you mentioned. That's the only way you're going to address it.

PHILLIP: Coming up next, we will gather at the table to mourn the untimely death of something that we once cherished in this country -- expertise.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:27:57]

PHILLIP: Welcome back. MAGA is trying to kill everything from diversity to the 14th Amendment, and now you can add independent expertise to the hit list. Just some examples from the last week. The House speaker is downplaying the cost of his spending bill by telling people to ignore the CBO, the Congressional Budget Office. The attorney general says the American Bar Association cannot vet their judicial nominees anymore. RFK Jr is using questionable and nonexistent sources to justify his health views. The courts and the rule of law have become villains. And the president calls the Federal Reserve chief a loser and can't wait until he's gone.

You know, especially when it comes to the cost of this bill, we've actually, I've heard Scott say this himself, all of a sudden, the CBO is this rabidly partisan institution that just a few years ago, one Mike Johnson cited to -- in its rating of a Biden bill. He said, "Now that the CBO has confirmed this bill adds nearly $400 billion to the deficit, contrary to the White House's claim that the bill is paid for, let's see if the moderate Democrats keep their promise to only vote for a bill consistent with White House estimates."

JENNINGS: I don't know, I don't know if they're rabidly partisan. Maybe they are. Maybe they aren't, but they're not infallible. I mean, back in 2017, they made all kinds of predictions about the Trump tax cuts that turned out not to be true.

PHILLIP: But this is the same CBO, the CBO of today is essentially the same CBO in 2021, which is headed by a Republican.

JENNINGS: OK. But again, it doesn't make you infallible to have a partisan affiliation.

PHILLIP: Or is it just that anything --

JENNINGS: The point is, they're not always right. And the predictions on this bill may be incorrect.

PHILLIP: Or is it or is it that anything that contradicts the narrative about -- anything that is factual, that contradicts the narrative has to be undermined? I think that's really fundamentally what the question is that is raised by all of this, to me.

COLES: Yes, of course. I want to say that I so admire Scott's determination to find a silver lining in every cloud. It's impressive. I bet you're really fun to --

(LAUGHTER)

COLES: I'm just saying.

[10:30:03]

JENNINGS: I'm an optimistic human being.

COLES: Yes, clearly. I think it's great. It's fantastic.

Of course that's what they're doing. They're undermining facts, they're undermining experts. Look at the way they've gone after universities. And the tragedy is that, actually, it's the American people that are going to suffer from this. And I think in the midterms, it will become clear that this is not a sustainable strategy.

JENNINGS: How are they going to suffer? We're cutting taxes. We're having historic investments in border security. We're going to unleash American energy.

(CROSS TALK)

JENNINGS: The tax cuts alone help people.

COLES: -- cancer research, research into cancer of children. This is how people are going to suffer. This is about -- this is about actual research and the cutting edge of research, which America has always been --

CHAMPION: To save lives.

COLES: -- the world will need it.

PHILLIP: Speaking of, the MAHA thing where they just made up sources to justify all kinds of, you know, preconceived conclusions that they're claiming as science is also another example of, you know, does expertise matter at all in this?

CHAMPION: No.

COLES: Its always that thing of when you're on a plane, isn't it? Do you want a pilot flying the plane, or do you want a regular passenger who says he thinks he can fly the plane? No, of course you want a trained pilot, and you want a trained doctor to operate on you. We're mad to think that expertise doesn't matter.

GRIFFIN: And my issue with RFK continues to be the same thing. Most people, especially women that I know, would love to get additives taken out of food. We'd like to get some -- all of these things that are just making us less healthy. We'd like to tackle big pharma. We actually do think that they have -- they have contributed to the decline in health in the United States.

But it shouldn't be this binary that, but if you want that, you also have to go with this deeply unqualified person who, seems to his staff, fabricates information that doesn't exist, and who, by the way, is undermining some of the most significant vaccine breakthroughs that we have, like MRNA vaccines, like the COVID vaccine, and some that have shown that they could actually help prevent pancreatic cancer, among other things. It shouldn't be like you have to have one or the other. Surely you could find somebody who supports one side of that agenda while also saying, we need to be the cutting edge of health, wellness, and just --

CHAMPION: One side or the other is to your point. Like right now, it's either what team are you on? And there's no nuance. And that's unfortunate. And I know that we're getting to the issue of free speech, but it's almost as if, if you, while you, quote-unquote, always find the silver lining, you also find ways to say that you don't necessarily agree with anything from the other side. And I, and I -- it's unfortunate because I want to go back to your point. We literally are looking at this bill and thinking, why are we making these cuts? We are supposed to be helping the American people. This doesn't necessarily help the American people wholeheartedly. And I know you can admit that, right?

JENNINGS: No, I think this bill is a great bill. It cuts taxes, it invests in border security. It unleashes American energy. These are all very big priorities for the American people. And by the way, it's exactly what he ran on and how he won the national popular vote and the Electoral College. This is his agenda. This is the bill.

COLES: Scott, he didn't run on -- he didn't run on cutting cancer research. That's not what people voted for.

CHAMPION: No one voted for that, Scott. No one wants to see that done.

PHILLIP: Thats true. If Trump had run on cutting cancer research, I think this would have been a very different conversation.

CHAMPION: There would have been a huge pushback, because it affects all people.

JENNINGS: The campaign was about extending the tax cuts and new tax cuts for working class Americans. The campaign was about immigration. The campaign was about unleashing American energy to lower energy costs. That's what the bill does.

CHAMPION: Does that mean we get rid of cancer research? The good and the bad, I'm asking. I'm asking.

JENNINGS: The bill has nothing to do with cancer research. The bill has everything to do about taxes, the border, and energy. That's what the bill is about. And, you know, on the one hand, I've got people over here arguing that it's increasing the deficit. On the other hand, you're saying we're cutting too much. I don't I don't know argument you all are trying to make.

PHILLIP: But what about the Medicaid of it all? I mean, again, like, there's a difference between what is happening and what Trump promised.

JENNINGS: No.

PHILLIP: If he had run on cutting Medicaid, then fine, I would say, OK, he's doing what he promised.

JENNINGS: Cutting Medicaid for illegal aliens, work requirements, which started in the 90s under Bill Clinton, these are not cuts. These are sane policies.

GRIFFIN: What they're talking about with SNAP and with some of these work requirements, I remember debating them when Obama was in office with what the Republican agenda was. This isn't something that's new and uniquely Trumpy. I actually think a lot of it's probably going to get filtered out in the Senate, because I don't think it's going to necessarily be able to pass through reconciliation. But I wouldn't say that that is outside of the mainstream of things.

I think it's some of these actually more targeted cuts at universities that are going to -- that are going after things like cancer research. That's where I think that the president could ultimately get himself in trouble because it is hurting the country. It is impacting people, and it isn't part of his agenda.

PHILLIP: All right, coming up next, MAGA is furious at CBS Anchor Scott Pelley over his viral warning from a graduation speech. We'll discuss ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:39:5]

PHILLIP: Welcome back. If commencement speeches are meant to prepare grads for the world they're about to dive into, Scott Pelley essentially told them, no more life jackets for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT PELLEY, CBA ANCHOR: Our sacred rule of law is under attack. Journalism is under attack. Universities are under attack. Freedom of speech is under attack.

[10:40:01]

And insidious fear is reaching through our schools, our businesses, our homes, and into our private thoughts, the fear to speak in America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: The "60 Minutes" host was brutally real about the state of America, one that there is some evidence to back up. But despite their affinity for free speech, MAGA didn't want to hear it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST: Scott, still a whiny liberal and still bitter, oblivious to the fact that it was the legacy media's lazy, agenda driven coverage that helped create the very conditions that he now blames Trump for, like censorship and racial hatred.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: I'm not sure what speech she was watching.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIP: However, it is interesting to me that first of all, things must be very bad at "60 Minutes" to see these CBS anchors who are normally pretty calm going this far. But also, it's interesting that people like, you know, Laura Ingraham, are totally fine with Trump saying we are going to shake down a news organization because I don't like you, which is what's happening here, and because I want you to say certain things. I want you to report a certain way.

COLES: Well, embarrassingly, I miss this speech because I was hooked watching Donald Trump's commencement address to West Point, where he talks about trophy wives. So I thought that was much more interesting.

PHILLIP: Another blockbuster commencement address.

(LAUGHTER)

COLES: When was "60 Minutes," actually? I haven't spent enough time really studying this to know where "60 Minutes" was on the Biden story, on Bidens health actually. And also, I actually think --

JENNINGS: They were where everybody else was -- nowhere.

COLES: OK.

JENNINGS: In my view.

COLES: And I also, here we all are. It's Saturday morning. We're all arguing with each other. I don't think we feel any fear about speaking out, do we? I actually think what this has unleashed is a ton of journalists who feel very confident in speaking out, which doesn't mean that corporations --

CHAMPION: That's not true.

COLES: Well, I think corporations that own certain journalistic organizations are putting different kind of pressure on them. But I think America is full of people who are speaking out.

CHAMPION: Oh, I disagree, I disagree. I think the conversations have been, how do I approach it? How do I keep my job? I do a lot of different speaking engagements. I host a podcast. I just, I did a conversation with one athlete who was on the right, one athlete who was on the left. They're terrified to speak. They don't want -- their owners are saying, the bosses, the people who own these teams, whether it be a football team or a basketball team, are saying, put your head down. You don't need to be a part of it.

I think people forget about wartime journalism. I was having a conversation with a good friend of ours, she was like, this is the time where you do this wartime journalism where you just really roll your sleeves up and you get into the nit and the grit. But for fear of losing a job, for fear of not being able to pay your bills, people are walking a very fine line.

I am 100 percent in agreement with what he said when he said, make the truth seekers live in fear. If you're suing my network that I am currently employed by and I don't even mention your name, i.e., Donald Trump in this entire speech, but I sent everyone on the right up in arms, then I know that I'm right there where I need to be. He didn't even mention his name because he knows he also is living in fear in some sort of way. Everything that he spoke about was his life.

PHILLIP: You both might be right in a certain way. I mean, I think there's been a lot of incredible reporting from places that you would expect conciliatory reporting. "The Wall Street Journal" does great reporting. Even "The Washington Post" under, you know, a lot of pressure from their owner to change their coverage has not. They continue to cover Trump.

However, what is happening at "60 Minutes" is different because Trump is suing them. And they do want this merger, and they're about to settle with him reportedly. And the reporting evidence is overwhelmingly that the pressure from the owners who want this merger to go through is to go soft on Trump, because Trump has explicitly threatened putting his regulatory officials in a position where they could stop this from happening.

JENNINGS: Yes, well, they're trying to settle their litigation issues so they can make this business transaction. I mean, it's not unusual for corporations to do that.

You know, I listened to the Pelley speech.

PHILLIP: Scott, just, your summary of that is not quite accurate.

JENNINGS: Its not accurate that businesses settle litigation in order to make business transactions go through?

PHILLIP: Hold on. It's a private lawsuit between Donald Trump and "60 Minutes," right? Trump as president is saying that the government is going to, on his private behest, stop a company from doing a business transaction because he wants it. That's different from settling legal disputes before you go into a merger and acquisition. That's Trump using the government to go after a company so that he can get dollars out of it, millions and millions of dollars. I mean, that's a completely different set of facts here.

[10:45:09]

JENNINGS: Look, I know he sued them because he believes he was treated unfairly, or they treated Kamala Harris's interview unfairly and tried to put their thumb on the scale of a presidential election. They're having conversations about settling it. We'll see how it shakes out. Actually, I think he has a point about it. And if you've watched "60 Minutes" for five minutes over the last several years, you would know it's not fair. I mean, this is this is this is one of the shows, this is one of the outlets that conservatives would point to most often to say, this is the state of American journalism. It's only here to try to hurt Republicans, hurt conservatives, hurt Donald Trump. I mean, Alyssa, you worked in this field for many years. That is the prevailing attitude among conservatives. But on the free speech issue, I don't know what America Scott Pelley

is living in. We have more speech now than ever. I mean, you just said you're doing all kinds of speaking engagements and podcasts, and I salute you. You're speaking all the time. There is no problem with free speech in America. What we do have a problem with are people who don't speak truthfully, who are interested more in narratives than truth, and who are using what used to be journalism for activism. We do have a problem with that. But there's no ban on free speech. The free speech problems came in the last administration.

CHAMPION: He didn't say there was a ban on free speech. What he said was there are people who want to tell the truth feel like they cannot tell the truth. We see this all the time, everywhere. And you know that, people are living in fear.

GRIFFIN: I actually see it totally differently. I actually think Trump tends to create the golden era of American journalism. I think that journalists find their backbones when he's in office. I think in the first term they were relentless in covering him. I think this term they are. I think there's something very different about having sort of a corporate fear because your overlords may not allow you to pursue those stories. But I do think we can't ignore the Biden of it. There is a real feeling that a major U.S. news story that had impacts on the entire country was just not covered with the same scrutiny that if it was happening in a Trump administration would have. That's the reality.

JENNINGS: Then why? And why didn't they cover it? What's the answer? Because everybody knows, you can say it. The answer is because media is geared --

CHAMPION: You could say that for FOX News.

JENNINGS: -- to cover up for him.

CHAMPION: You could say FOX News doesn't cover it. Scott, what are you talking about? Everybody does it.

PHILLIP: We have to leave it there.

COLES: Can we just ask what's happening on "The View", because you've had corporate pressure at "The View", right? We reported this at "The Daily Beast", not to talk about Trump as well.

GRIFFIN: To be honest, that reporting did not reflect what I witnessed in that meeting by any means. And what I'll say is this. I've always believed that the show should reflect what Barbara Walters intended for it to be -- women of different backgrounds, different political viewpoints, different ages, generations, talking about a wide variety of issues. No one at ABC, at Disney has ever suggested to me, or anyone that I know of, of my co-hosts, that we need to go easier or harder on Trump.

PHILLIP: Up next for us, the panel is going to give us their unpopular opinions, what they are not afraid to say out loud. But first, we've got a programing note for you. George Clooney stars

in Broadway's "Good Night and Good Luck," presented live on CNN in a first of its kind broadcast. Watch the Tony-nominated play Saturday, June 7th, on CNN and streaming on CNN.com.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:53:01]

PHILLIP: We're back, and it's time for your unpopular opinions. You each have 30 seconds to tell us yours. Joanna, you're first?

COLES: Well, actually, mine is that I do think that a little bit of ketamine at the right time is actually a good thing.

(LAUGHTER)

COLES: Really, because it's a very good treatment for PTSD. There's tons of research around it. So I'm pro ketamine, just in small amounts.

PHILLIP: Yes. For the for the approved reasons.

COLES: Yes.

GRIFFIN: I want justice for Selena Gomez. So this week the Beyhive came after her because she was at Beyonce's concert and she was also watching the Knicks game. Now, I love Beyonce. If you're front row, that would be so disrespectful to Queen Bey. But if you also care about the Knicks and you care about the concert, you should be able to do both if you're not disrupting anyone around you. I know they're a diehard fan base, but I love my girl Selena Gomez, and I'm standing with her in this.

PHILLIP: This. I think that's justified, that's justified. And speaking of.

CHAMPION: Speaking of, my opinion is so unpopular. Oh, gosh, even, so I can't come back ever and ever. After this I'm done.

(LAUGHTER)

CHAMPION: So my unpopular opinion is that the Knicks will not make it to the finals, and that is because they are down three-two. We have two more games. Saturday's game is at Indiana. I have a hard time believing they're going to lose at home. And then I just have a hard time believing that even if they did lose at home, they'd come back and lose again. The Pacers are playing so well. And just for historical purposes, the last time a team has come back from three- two, which is currently the case right now with the Pacers and the Knicks, was in 1981, Boston Celtics defeated the 76ers. It's rare that it happens when they get such a jump on you. The Pacers are a good team. And I hate to say it.

PHILLIP: We'll see you when we see you. I'm sure you're going to be allowed here in New York City. Sorry. CHAMPION: I know, I know. I really want you guys to win. I have no

dog in this -- I have no dog in this fight.

PHILLIP: Scott?

JENNINGS: I went to a Major League Baseball game last Sunday, and I went with a friend of mine, and I'm sort of agnostic about this, but he was so enraged at the everybody clap your hands thing that goes on at baseball stadiums.

PHILLIP: What?

JENNINGS: He said to me, quote, I hate this. It's been going on for 30 years and it's time to retire it.

[10:55:01]

And so I'm a little agnostic, but as the press secretary of the people, I will just say, it is time to retire everybody clap your hands.

(APPLAUSE)

JENNINGS: And I will also just --

COLES: I have no idea what you're talking about.

JENNINGS: And I will just say, I'm not a huge --

COLES: This happens at every sporting event, by the way.

JENNINGS: And I will just say -- I know. I'm just saying, I'm also not a huge fan of the wave. And if you can't, like, match the seat number to your ticket, go back up to the top and figure it out before you come to the game.

CHAMPION: He is such a party pooper. What's wrong with the wave? What is wrong with the wave? It is an American pastime.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIP: All right, my friends, thank you very much. Thank you very much. Some people will not be invited back going forward.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIP: But thanks for watching "TABLE FOR FIVE". You can catch me on the weeknights at 10:00 p.m. eastern with our news night roundtable and any time on your favorite social media, X, Instagram, and TikTok. But in the meantime, CNN's coverage continues next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)