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CNN Live Event/Special
Police Official: Air India Jet Hit A Doctor's Hostel When It Crashed; Air India Jet With 242 On Board Crashes Near Ahmedabad Airport. Aired 8-9a ET
Aired June 12, 2025 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The plane had just left the Ahmedabad Airport heading to London Gatwick with 242 passengers and crew on board. A senior police official confirms the plane slammed into what they're calling a doctor's hostel when it crashed, which we think is probably a living center for medical professionals near a hospital. New footage shows part of the tail of the plane sticking out of the building. You can see it right there. We learned or we're told this is the first major incident involving a 787 Dreamliner.
Again, that is the type of plane that did crash. Remarkable and tragic images from the scene. We did see video of the plane itself crashing, creating a huge fireball. Let's get right to seeing Salma Abdelaziz, who is in London with the very latest on what is now a cleanup and an investigation.
SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. And when you look at those images, you're beginning to build a timeline of what has happened from that moment that you see the crash on social media video that's been verified by CNN, where you see this slow descend of a plane. This only took moments, of course, though, and then a fireball explosion. You're looking right now at the wreckage at the aftermath, where you can see that debris, where you can see the smoke rising, where you can see rescue workers trying put out.
And, again, we're playing that video it is absolutely extraordinary and shocking and terrifying to watch that plane which should have been taking off instead just a moment after its departure becoming this huge fireball explosion. 242 souls on board. Nearly 170 of them just over 160 are Indian nationals you have more than 50 British nationals you have Portuguese and Canadian nationals as well so you're already looking at a global effort there.
This plane was supposed to land here in London at 6:30, around 6:30 local time at Gatwick Airport. So you're also looking at families potentially here in London that are seeking answers. And there's a multi-layered approach that's taking place right now to address the needs of those families. There's been an emergency help desk that's been set up by the airliner, by Air India. There are support services that India's civil aviation minister says he is providing to those emergency workers that you see on the ground there.
But of course, for everyone, for every one of those family members right now, the key question is, did my loved one make it out alive? And when you're looking at those pictures, it's difficult to come to any other conclusion. And you have to remember the human toll here. I saw images of luggage being pulled out of the wreckage of this plane. Families potentially on that flight that were coming home to see loved ones here in London, only to be met with this fate just seconds, just mere moments after takeoff.
One thing that also stopped me in my tracks was that a mayday call was made by the pilot, even in that short span of time we talked about from that departure. Quickly, things must have turned very, very wrong for that mayday call to be made. As you mentioned, recovery efforts right now underway on the ground, not only to pull whatever scraps they can from that plane, including, of course, the black box but also to answer the question for those families. Did my loved one make it? Are they okay?
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Salma, thank you so much. We are getting some reporting. We're going to bring in CNN's David Soucie and as well as CNN Transportation Analyst Mary Schiavo. Again, and we are getting some information to what Salma was just saying is the question on so many people's minds and families is a city police commissioner has told the Associated Press that there appears to be no survivors from the crashed plane. That is just coming in right now.
And as we've been told by the airline, 242 passengers and crew were on that flight. And now, Mary, now we get the news from the police commissioner there telling the Associated Press they do not believe there are any survivors.
MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER INSPECTOR GENERAL, U.S. DEPT. OF TRANSPORTATION: Yes, sad and heartbreaking news, you know, on David as well as I we've worked many, many accidents and the difference between life and death is usually that fireball. If you have a crash and the fire doesn't start until after you've started evacuation or you have no fire, then you know, miraculously many, many people survive and that makes the difference in so many cases.
But here with that much fuel on board, with that sinking crash sequence that we've just saw in the video a few minutes ago, that fireball and that kind of a crash, there's just into a city, there's just -- it makes the survivability factors pretty non-existent.
[08:05:06]
BOLDUAN: Yeah. All right. David, you know, when you look at this, Mary's been talking about this video and we're seeing it now. Really disturbing watching this plane sort of coast in and then lift up just a tiny bit, the nose lifting up just a tiny bit. And then you see this this blast. What are your thoughts on what you see may have happened here?
DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: So tragic to watch, isn't it? But what you can see in this is that after takeoff, typically the nose will come up and you'll see the aircraft rise. In this case, the nose comes up, but you can see that the wings are pulling up very hard. You can see they actually arc up. And at that point, the aircraft doesn't appear to have enough airspeed and then it starts to fall. And that's called a slow stall, but it's starting to stall over the wing. The lift is gone.
And you can see at that point, the aircraft doesn't have enough speed or altitude to maintain flight. And you can see just sinks, as Mary said, it sinks. It's not an abrupt drop from the front of the nose. A stall typically buffets and then drops down directly. And in that case, as Mary said, with that fireball following, there is no survivability at that point.
BERMAN: David, there was a mayday call in this -- we're not talking about a long period of time between liftoff and when it ultimately crashed. These pictures of the crash scene are just devastating right now. But the fact that there was a mayday call, what does that tell you? The pilots clearly knew something was wrong.
SOUCIE: Yeah, it tells you that they knew that they didn't have the airspeed or they didn't have the ability to continue. And to call mayday at that point is just saying, look, we're going down. We need some assistance. And there's really nothing the pilot could have done at the point he called mayday.
He was already apparently in that stall and there's no recovery from that at that altitude. That's what they call the safe zone. Once you have enough altitude and airspeed, you can then glide and have control over where you land. But at the point that you've lost that control, that's when you would call the mayday.
BOLDUAN: Look, you can see in this video there's still -- from this morning still trying to put out flames inside this building, which we've been told is some doctors hostel in the city, a housing -- like a housing for medical students and medical professionals in that city. Mary, one thing we do know is that -- wow, just look at that. Look at that smoke, Mary. One thing we do know is this was a 787 Dreamliner. What do you know about the Dreamliner? What is the safety record?
SCHAVIO: Well, in terms of hall losses or total air disasters, this will be the first. Now, when the Dreamliner first came out, they had problems with the Dreamliner batteries. There were runaway battery overheating fires. They were difficult to put out. But that was many years ago in Boeing and the Federal Aviation Administration, and you know, there were battery guidance's put out around the world after that, but they worked on that and that problem has not resurfaced in recent years. And so that were the glitches when it was new. And it's kind of typical for a brand new model airplane.
For the first year or two, you really do have to work out a few kinks. They did, there were no loss of life because of these runaway battery fires on the Dreamliner. And after that, it's had a good service, but Boeing will be under extra scrutiny because of the 737 MAX 8 crashes in Indonesia and in Kenya because in Addis Ababa because of the issue with the computer program called MCAS. Now this is a different plane. It doesn't have quite the same system.
But Boeing will be under tremendous scrutiny to show that those kinds of problems could not have possibly been replicated on this plane. You know, whether or not it's entirely different or not, that will be looked at. I mean, it's just a fact that Boeing's going to have to face. They're going to have to prove that there was no possibility that kind of system programming computer glitch could have occurred again, even though it's an entirely different plane.
SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Mary Schiavo, David Soucie and Salma Abdelaziz, thank you so much. We're going to have a lot more on this. You can see that it is an active scene at this hour. There is also great deal of concern about those on the ground. This plane smashing into buildings, one of which, according to officials in India, was a hostile that housed internist doctors where they would both train and where they would also live. So there was a lot of concern about the survivability for people on the ground as well.
We'll also be live from Gatwick Airport. We know that there are several dozen members of the British community were also on that plane, including Canada as well.
[08:10:08]
More of our breaking news is coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SIDNER: All right. Breaking news. Again, you're seeing the horrific pictures from the crash of a commercial airliner Air India airliner and now we are learning from local police, the police commissioner telling the AP there appears to be no survivors from the Air India crash.
[08:15:02]
242 people were on board that flight to London Gatwick. Our Nada Bashir is at Gatwick Airport in London. Can you give us some sense of what you're seeing, hearing there as families were certainly, you know, it's a fairly long flight, but families will be gathering to try to learn more.
NADA BASHIR, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, absolutely. That flight was due to land here at Gatwick Airport just outside of London at around 6:30 p.m. local time today. And as we understand according to airline officials at least 53 of the 242 passengers and crew that were on board that flight are believed to be British nationals. So this will be a moment of anguish for many of the relatives and loved ones of those who were on board that flight either travelling back home or perhaps here on holiday.
And of course there are many questions still for those relatives and loved ones. We've been hearing from the authorities here at Gatwick Airport who have said that they are setting up a reception center here at the airport for relatives and loved ones where they will be provided with updates, information and support as and when the airport receives that information.
But of course, this is also an issue that the government is closely following from the British Prime Minister Keir Starmer. He has said that he has been devastated by the news and is being kept updated throughout the day on the information coming from officials in India.
We've also been hearing from the Foreign Secretary David Lammy, who told the House of Commons just a short while ago that they know that British nationals were on board, that they are working urgently with authorities both here in the United Kingdom and in India to get those updates and that they have set up a crisis team both in Delhi and here in London. So, clearly, there is still lot of information that authorities and officials are waiting to get as we understand it that flight crashed in India shortly after takeoff, after making a mayday call.
And, of course, this was, as you mentioned, a long flight, not expected to land here until 6:30 p.m. So, as you can imagine, family members and loved ones will be waiting to get those updates. They have offered a hotline now for relatives as well to get those updates from officials. And as you can see, members of the press have gathered here. We have yet to see any family members just yet arriving, but this is a very controlled situation by the airport. Sara?
SIDNER: Absolutely. Nada there at London Gatwick, which was the destination of this flight, this tragic flight. Nada, we're going to get back to you as well. Let's go now, joining us from New Delhi is Zakka Jacob, the managing editor for CNN News 18 there. Zakka, thanks for joining us. What are you hearing from government officials there right now about this horrible tragedy?
ZAKKA JACOB, CNN NEWS18 MANAGING EDITOR: So you mentioned a moment ago about the Commissioner of Police in Ahmedabad, one of the senior cops there saying that he doesn't expect anyone to survive in this crash. There were 242 people on board, including 10 crew members. There were more than 50 British nationals, more than 160 Indian nationals.
The worry is it's not just the people on board who may have lost their lives to this terrible tragedy. The hospital authorities there, the civil hospital, which is the main hospital to which much of the bodies are being rushed to, have now confirmed that over 200 bodies have been brought there and are undergoing post-mortem.
The fear is also that the building that this claim crashed into was the lunch building of a medical school. This was a little past 1:30 in the afternoon, so it was peak lunch hour. There were a number of these medical students, medical school students, who were having their lunch in that building at that time. So I'm afraid there's a large number of casualties on the ground as well, aside of the number of people who died, who were on board that ill-fated flight, air India flight 171, from Ahmedabad to London Gatwick.
What is also of concern is that this is the first time in the last over a decade that the Dreamliner 787 has been in the skies. This is the very first time that a flight of this nature has crashed and it happened within minutes of takeoff. It took off at 1:38 local time, is what we're given to understand, and within the first five minutes the pilot lost contact with the air traffic control. And within 20 minutes before two o'clock the crash happened over this medical school building in the outskirts of Ahmedabad. Also we're given to understand that the prime minister has tweeted about this, he has expressed his pain and anguish. He has also instructed his number two in the government, the union home minister Mr. Amit Shah, who also hails, in fact both the prime minister and the home minister hailed from the state of Gujarat, that's where this air crash happened. So he has instructed the home minister to rush to Ahmedabad immediately, he should be reaching Ahmedabad within the next hour to take stock of the situation there.
The Chief Minister of the province of Gujarat has already reached the hospital. He's taking stock of the fatalities and also trying to get the information across to the loved ones of those who perished in this terrible, terrible air tragedy.
[08:20:13]
There will be an inquiry. So far, we've not heard from the airline authorities as to whether they have recovered any of the debris or the black box or any of the voice recording systems on board to try and gauge what exactly led to this.
The pilot, Sumit Sabharwal, apparently had more than 8,000 hours of flying experience. The co-pilot had over a thousand hours. So we don't know what led to this terrible crash. Was it a pilot error? Was it an engine failure? Was there a bird hit of any kind? What is very curious about this incident, this tragedy, is that both the engines failed of an airline -- of the type of airline which has never crashed before in the decade plus that it's been in the skies. So all of these will be questions that investigators will be asking in the next few days and weeks.
BERMAN: Zakka Jacob, a lot of information. We are very appreciative of you sharing your reporting. We may check back in with you in a little bit because you raise a great point, which is that those of us who have been looking at this video of what happened on the ground. Everyone has to be fearful of casualties, injuries, deaths in the buildings in that neighborhood, in that what's called a doctor's hostel, in that facility near a medical center where medical professionals gather and eat and live. Almost certainly injuries and deaths there based on the pictures we're seeing, but just no official word yet on the ground there.
Boeing did just issue a statement on social media saying our thoughts are with the passengers, crew, first responders and all affected. They say they stand by Air India and they are ready to support them. Much more on this ahead. Obviously are breaking news coverage continues of this crash and the --
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: And thanks for staying with us for our breaking news coverage. You are in the CNN Newsroom, I'm Erica Hill, joining you from New York as we continue to follow these developments out of India. Let's bring you up to speed at this hour. Of course, we're following developments related to the crash of Air India Flight 171. Just moments after takeoff from Ahmedabad Airport in the western part of India, search and rescue cues are on the ground at the site of that crash and what is being labeled as a dense residential area. Also with a hospital in that area and what's being referred to as a doctor's hostel building where we're told a number of medical school students would have been eating at the time of this crash that this was a quote-unquote lunch building where they would be. Among the developments that we have 242 passengers and crew on board and a city -- the city police commissioner just telling the Associated Press a short time ago that they do not believe there are any survivors of that crash. Also, some very large concerns about the number of victims, potential casualties on the ground in this area.
You can see this video here. That is the tail of the plane sticking out of a building. That's the building believed to be that so-called doctors' hostel in the area. The debris has been scattered across this residential neighborhood. Reuters reporting a short time ago that officials had said about 70 to 80% of the area had been cleared. But again, a lot of questions about the damage on the ground, of course not just the structures, but most importantly, any potential victims, fatalities on the ground there.
As all of this new reporting is coming in, I want to bring in my colleague, Salma Abdelaziz, who has been following all of these developments from the very start of this. Salma, bring us up to speed on what more we're hearing in terms of not only from the airlines, but even in terms of where the investigation could go now, given that so much of this area has been contained.
ABDELAZIZ: I want to begin by reading what I think is the most important, most concerning, and most saddening piece of information that we've received just in the last few minutes. And this is according to the Associated Press. They were able to speak to Ahmedabad's city police commissioner. And the police commissioner says, it appears there are no survivors in the plane crash. And he added that the plane crash, because it was in a residential area, quote, that some locals would have also died. Exact figures are yet to be determined.
We've also just heard from CNN 18's managing editor, so this is our affiliate in India, the managing editor, Zakka Jacob, who said that that portion of the plane that you see embedded in the top of a building, that that is an area where doctors, medical students often take their lunch breaks, and this is exactly when this happened. It happened around lunchtime. It happened mid-afternoon in this busy and bustling city.
So many of our fears and concerns that we realized when looking at those images, that this is a bigger accident, a bigger tragedy than the 242 souls on board. That now appears to be confirmed by the city's police commissioner who says that there are casualties on the ground beyond those who are on the plane. This is a global event. This is a global tragedy. You have 242 souls on board from four different countries. India, whose signal.
And this occurred at 625 feet approximately of altitude. So very low. And we've played those images of the actual plane crash. It barely seems to have actually taken off at all. And yet flight tracking radar shows that it dropped at a rate of 475 feet per minute. And it was only, again, 625 feet height according to this flight tracking radar. So just this instantaneous drop, it must have given people on the ground the sense that a plane fell out of the sky and literally blew into this fireball explosion.
When you're looking at that fire, a lot of that is because that plane would have been full of fuel packed. With fuel to make the journey from India all the way here to London, Gatwick, where it was supposed to land. And so it is to be assumed, of course, that this fire would take place.
You have these huge plumes of smoke raging now on the ground right near this airport, parts of the plane crashing into a building where medical students are having lunch. I cannot even begin to describe the scope and scale and horror of this very sudden tragedy taking place right in the middle of the afternoon.
India's prime minister, of course, stepping in trying to show that that support is going to be provided to those emergency crews on the ground. And the airliner Air India of course responding to the needs of those families. Again, we've heard from the local police commissioner who says it is unlikely that there are any survivors. And we also heard from our managing editor, our affiliate on the ground, CNN 18's managing editor, who said dozens, almost 200 bodies had already arrived at local hospitals.
[08:30:08]
So you can imagine that the system right now is overwhelmed as people are asking for those answers and families desperately, they're watching these images desperately looking for that support.
HILL: Yeah. Absolutely. Really appreciate it, Salma. Thank you. I believe now -- are we going to New Delhi or are we going to -- let's take you now to New Delhi, where Zakka Jacob is standing by, who is of course the Managing Editor for CNN News 18.
Zakka, we were just talking about some of your earlier reporting in terms of the number of bodies being brought into the hospital there and the sheer mass of what is being anticipated now. I wonder, too, are there also concerns, as you pointed out for us, this doctor's hostel that was hit during lunchtime where a number of medical students were reportedly having their lunch at that point. Are there concerns too about the available medical personnel to deal with victims in the aftermath of this given that some of them may need attention themselves?
JACOB: Absolutely, I mean that is the other concern around here. As you mentioned a moment ago, the civil hospital, the main hospital in this area of Ahmedabad where a bulk of the bodies are being taken to have confirmed to CNN News 18 that 210 bodies have been sent for post mortems. This is just one of the main hospitals where a bulk of the bodies are being taken to.
There were 242 people on board, including 10 crew members, 230 passengers. 160 plus of them Indian nationals, more than 50 of them are British nationals and one Canadian and seven Portuguese. Like you said a moment ago, Erica, the concern is not just for the people who are on board this ill-fated flight, Air India 171 from Ahmedabad to London Gatwick, it's also the building into which this flight crashed. That building was a canteen building where medical students, undergraduate medical students were having their lunch.
Remember this is during this accident happened during the peak lunch hour. The flight took off at 1:38 from runway number 23 in the end of our airport and within five minutes it lost contact with the air traffic control and within 20 minutes it crashed in building. We're given to understand from reporters on the ground that at that time there were a lot of these medical students who were having their lunch or coming to this particular building to have their lunch. So there are concerns also that a large number of people have lost their lives on the ground as well, not just the ones who were on board this flight.
What is also of concern, and I know it's early hours just yet, but there are concerns that, you know, the pilot seemed very experienced. The lead pilot had over 8,000 hours of flying experience. The co-pilot had over 1,000 hours. And this whole thing happened within minutes of takeoff in a type of aircraft which has never crashed before, the Dreamliner 787. Has been in service for the last 10 plus years now across various airlines here in India as well as around the world and we've never had an air crash of the Dreamliner 787. This is the very first one.
Tata Airlines, which is the company that runs Air India now, their chairman has spoken to us and he is also rushing to Ahmedabad. The Prime Minister has tweeted his deep sadness and anguish. He's also instructed the number two in the central government, the Home Minister, Mr. Amit Shah, to rush to Ahmedabad. Both the Prime Minister and the number two, Mr. Shah, hailed from the state of Gujarat where this accident happened. So the Home Minister is expected to touch down in Ahmedabad in the next half hour or so.
So you said a moment ago the Police Commissioner of Ahmedabad saying that they don't think anyone on board this flight would have likely made it alive. That is the sense that we're getting both from the hospital as well as from our reporters on the ground.
HILL: Yeah, absolutely. Just -- I'm going to put you on the spot here, so my apologies in advance, but in terms of what we know about this area. So we know that it's just outside, of course, the airport itself, but the fact that there is this hospital that's right there, it's been described as a dense residential area in addition to having that hospital. What more do we know about the hospital itself?
Do we know how large it is? Do we know sort of what level? You know, I'm thinking about in the United States, we talk about level one trauma hospitals, for example. Do we know what the capabilities are of this hospital based on how large it is, based on, you know, what they can and who they can accommodate?
JACOB: So what we know, Erica, is that this was a medical school building. So the people who had gathered there in this lunch building in this canteen were medical students who were studying. We don't know if this is a standalone building or was this part of a wider medical campus. But we do know that the building where the plane crashed and where a large number of fatalities appeared happens to be a canteen building which was used by students.
[08:35:04]
We don't have information whether doctors at the hospital and whether or not there was a hospital inside this compound itself or whether there was a hospital attached to this compound. But the building itself on which this plane landed that happens to be a lunch building, a mess if you will, a hostile mess of some form where undergraduate medical students were having their lunch. So like I said a moment ago the concern is not just about the people the 200 and plus who were on board this Air India flight 171 but it's also that there could be a large number of fatalities on the ground.
And Ahmedabad is a bustling city, it's crowded neighborhoods residential area and like I said this this medical school was bang in the middle of a bustling neighborhood. So while the direct impact was on this building, on this on this lunch building or this canteen, I'm sure given the impact and given the fact that this was a flight that was due to go eight hours in to London Gatwick, so it would have been fully loaded with fuel. So all of that would have come crashing down. And you saw that huge explosion of gas and fire and smoke. So I suspect that there will be a larger number of fatalities than just the people who were on board this flight.
HILL: Yeah, absolutely. Zakka Jacob, I really appreciate you joining us. This hour will continue to check in with you. Also with me at CNN Correspondent Nada Bashir, who's made her way to London's Gatwick airport. Of course, flight 171 was scheduled to arrive there around 6:25 local time today. I know Gatwick is setting up emergency call centers, emergency help for some of the families. Nada, what more do we know about what has been put in place for loved ones of those who are on board?
BASHIR: As you can imagine, for many of the relatives and loved ones of those passengers who were on board this flight headed to London Gatwick Airport, as you mentioned, landing at around 6:25, or expected to land at around 6:25 p.m. this evening.
This is a moment of huge anguish as they wait for more information from the authorities and officials involved in providing those updates. As we understand it, among the 242 passengers and crew members on board that flight and 53 are said to be British nationals and so of course a huge impact here for the United Kingdom.
We've been hearing from the authorities here at Gatwick Airport, they have, as you mentioned, set up an emergency helpline but they are also establishing a reception center here at the airport for relatives and loved ones. They will be providing, they have said, updates for relatives and also of course providing support to many of the bereaved.
But of course we've also been hearing from the government as well. British Prime Minister Keir Starmer has described the scenes as devastating. He said that he is being updated throughout the day on the progress of both investigation and updates around those British nationals impacted. We also heard from the British Foreign Secretary who spoke just a little earlier in the House of Commons. He also expressed his concern and devastation and he said that they are setting up not only emergency response sites but also crisis teams, standing up crisis teams in both London and Delhi.
And have also received a statement from the Royal Family, King Charles just a short while ago putting up this statement saying, my wife and I have been desperately shock by the terrible events in Ahmedabad this morning. Our especial prayers and deepest possible sympathy of with the family and friends of all there's affected. And he would like to pay a particular tribute to the heroic efforts of the emergency services in all those providing help.
Now, of course, we're also waiting for more information. It is possible that relatives, family member, may gather here at the airport, although they have provided an emergency line as well. This will have come, of course, as a huge shock in the morning given that the flight was expected to land here later this evening. We will be standing by for more updates from the authorities here in the United Kingdom and, of course in India (inaudible).
HILL: Nada, really appreciate it. Thank you. Nada Bashir live at Gatwick in London. I want to show you now some video of the actual crash. I do want to warn you, you may find these images disturbing. As you watch along with this here, you see the plane appearing, as it's flying, appearing to descend, but at fairly level. And then you see it as it disappears out of view and then of course a massive fireball.
We are joined now by CNN Aviation Analyst Miles O'Brien. Miles, as we look at that, there have been some questions about the plane itself, about frankly the level of the plane and what that looked like. Contact was lost according to Flight Tracker at 625 feet. What do you make of the, not only information we have, but how that fits with what we're seeing in that video?
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, Erica, if you look toward the beginning of that video, maybe we can get a freeze or slow it down a little bit. What really strikes a pilot, as you look at that, is there's no indication or evidence that the flaps were deployed at that time.
[08:40:09]
The movable aerodynamic structures at the trailing edge of the wing and the slats are similar structures at the leading edge of the wing. They increase the lift of the wing crucially during takeoff when speeds are lower. In addition to that -- okay, so it's hard to see there, but there's no indication that the flaps are deployed there.
And interestingly, the landing gear is still down. So you have a scenario on a hot day, a fully loaded aircraft for a nine hour flight to London Gatwick. And on a hot day, you have less lift in the air because the air molecules are less dense. You have evidently the flaps not deployed and the landing gear down which increases the drag. So there evidently a lot of problems which made it difficult for this aircraft to take flight and hold altitude quite obviously.
Now, why would this happen? The 787 has, you know, been in service now for about a decade or so, it's never had a crash that involved fatalities, and it is a highly automated aircraft that involves all kinds of checks and counterchecks and redundancies to make sure it's in the proper configuration before takeoff. So, very early to say why this is in this evident position of no flaps, but that would certainly explain why the aircraft could not maintain hold altitude or for that matter climb.
HILL: When you mentioned, you as you point out there the landing gear that's still down, how quickly is the landing gear typically up after takeoff?
O'BRIEN: The normal sequence would be once you have a positive rate of ascent, the pilot flying will call gear up, the pilot monitoring will put the landing gear up, the flaps remain down. And as speed gradually increases, more lift over the wings, they slowly stow those flaps. And eventually as it gets to a cruise flight, you sort of, what they call, clean up the wing, stow the flaps and slats so that the aircraft can fly a cruise speed. That's the normal sequence of events. What seems odd here is that the flaps were stowed and the gear was still down. Why did that happen? That's what pilots are looking at right now.
HILL: And so also, you know, walking us through, the fact that all this happened in under a minute, this mayday call is sent out to air traffic control. And then from what we've been told, there is no further communication. You know, we all hear about a mayday call. We've seen TV. We've seen the movies.
But in reality, what does that mean when a pilot says, this is a mayday call, as opposed to calling into air traffic control with some other sort of issue? I have an issue with the landing gear, for example. What does that change in terms of the sequence of events when it's an actual mayday call?
O'BRIEN: Well, when you declare an emergency, which is a mayday, instantly all airspace around you is yours. You can do whatever you want. It is incumbent upon air traffic control to clear air traffic out of the area to do whatever maneuvers might be necessary to save the aircraft and the souls on board.
So mayday is a very simple way to obtain complete priority over the skies and let air traffic control know there's a problem. Was there time for them to, you know, explain the details? Clearly not. But mayday summed up that they were dealing with a problem that seemed to be beyond them at that time.
HILL: Yeah. We've seen these images as well of the tail section, a portion of the tail section of the plane in this building in the area where the plane crashed. We're told that the building itself is what's being referred to as a doctor's hostel, a mess, if you will, where a number of medical students were likely having lunch at the time, because this was 1:39 local time that the plane went down.
The fact that that portion of the plane, though, does appear to be accessible, and that is where we would find the black boxes, that could offer some answers more quickly, perhaps, than in a number of situations.
O'BRIEN: Yeah, the 787 is a highly advanced aircraft. There are multiple, multiple streams of data feeding into the flight data recorder or black box. Presumably the cockpit voice recorder also captured conversations among the crew during this very short flight. So that is a good sign that there will be some real evidence for investigators to look at as they try to determine what happened.
[08:45:01]
Once -- you know, really crucially here will be conversations between the crew as they configure that aircraft for departure. The system is designed to cross check the actual configuration of the plane with what the crew has commanded based on the weather and the amount of fuel and everything else. And if there's a discrepancy, there should be oral warnings and other indications to the crew that, you know, the plane is not configured the way it was supposed to be.
So there's all kinds of ways this aircraft is designed to tell a crew that this airplane is not ready for takeoff. So it'll be very interesting to listen to that cockpit voice recorder as well as look at the data to see what went on.
HILL: Yeah, absolutely. Miles, appreciate your expertise as always. And we'll continue to check in with you.
I do want to recap for some of our viewers who are just joining us now. The breaking news that we are following today, an Air India passenger plane flight 171 with 242 people on board crashing earlier on Thursday. This happened shortly after takeoff, less than a minute after takeoff from Ahmedabad in Western India. The flight was then supposed to go, of course, to London's Gatwick Airport.
The Ahmedabad City Police Commissioner just telling the Associated Press moments ago there do not appear to be any survivors from the crash. There are a number of concerns about additional victims on the ground given that this is a densely populated residential areas how it's being described to us.
A fair amount of video as well as still images coming into us here at CNN. You just saw that video which had been posted to social media. We also have video which appears to show the tail section of that Boeing 7878 Dreamliner wedged into a building. That could be significant in terms of the investigation itself. Here's my colleague Richard Quest with more on that.
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RICHARD QUEST, CNN ANCHOR, QUEST MEANS BUSINESS: It would be absolutely premature, irresponsible, that there is no reason that anybody would question the aircraft or the airliner itself. And as we get more information about it, then obviously different factors come into play. But this aircraft, the 787 Dreamliner, is, I know we use this phrase, the workhorse, but this aircraft was designed specifically for these sorts of routes known as long skinny routes, Ahmedabad to Birmingham.
So here you have a route that would not be able to sustain a three, 400 seat, triple seven, certainly not an 838 or anything like that. But you have these aircraft like the 350, like the 787, that carries 250 to 300 passengers at much lower, 20% lower fuel burn and cost and this aircraft was designed for these routes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: I also spoke in just the last hour with Marco Chan. He's a Senior Lecturer in Aviation Operations at Buckinghamshire New University, asking him about his takeaways from those initial videos, the initial images that we have seen from the crash site itself.
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MARCO CHAN, SENIOR LECTURER, BUCKINGHAMSHIRE NEW UNIVERSITY: I think the videos and images will actually be more helpful with the general public for them to get more information or insights on what happened initially. Now, for the investigators. I can assure you they won't just rely on those images and videos.
I think a number of experts have already come on and mentioned the fact that they need to identify and locate the black boxes to copy the voice recorder and the flight data recorder. This would be crucial data, something they would want to rely on in an investigation. Now, hopefully, the investigators after perhaps the passengers or the residents in a nearby area when they have recovered from the injuries, they can interview them as well as part of the investigation.
HILL: Yeah, absolutely. As you mentioned, those critical black boxes. So of course, the flight data recorder, the cockpit voice recorder in the tail of the plane. We also have seen images from the ground of what appeared to be the tail of the plane in a building in that residential area which one would hope would mean that as tragic as all of that is and those images, it would provide more immediate access, of course, to those black boxes and to that information. The fact that it was so quickly after takeoff, less than a minute, that this mayday call went through, that the plane went down, give us an idea of what specifically those two black boxes could provide in terms of the initial information about what led to that mayday call?
CHAN: The very first point, if you look at the cockpit voice recorder, it will record the conversations within the cockpit and the conversation with the air traffic controllers as well. Investigators would want to understand what conversations have taken place between the pilots.
[08:50:10]
What actions have been done? When have they figured out there was a failure or were they reacting to it? And why did they decide to broadcast a mayday call?
A mayday call is usually when there is imminent danger. It is highly unusual. If I made a course for issued that close to the ground now majority of time, their pilot's number one priority is to fly the plane. So if (inaudible) isn't flying properly, I think they will try to make sure the plane can get back to the original flight path then issue a mayday a call. If they were forced to make a mayday call that early, we would want to know what investigators would want to know what catastrophe was happening at the time.
Flight data recorder would also be essential. What inputs were made in the flight controls or by the autopilots? More importantly, now there are several experts or as we can see on the figure is there is a possibility where the slats and flaps of the wings weren't configured correctly. Now (inaudible) -- the resolution of the video would be a little bit difficult for me to verify that. But if that were the case, investigators would want to understand whether that procedures for takeoff were done correctly.
Also, at which point off the runway did the plane take off from? Did they take advantage of the full runway length, or were they taken off from the intersection of the runway, which can happen due to congestion at an airport? So those are the questions investigators would hopefully have an answer to.
HILL: And they'll be looking, obviously, to immediately secure this area around the crash site in addition to helping any victims in the area. We do have some images of that site. There will be so much that will be looked into in terms of where the debris is, what that debris field looks like, how broad it is. What specifically will investigators be doing just in these initial moments to secure some of that information, Marco?
CHAN: No, exactly. They would want to examine the debris exactly like you mentioned, right after they've retrieved the black boxes. They would want to understand based on the scattering of the debris, how huge of an impact did they have, how quickly was the plane falling off out of the sky at that point. So these are the things they would want to understand. They would also probably want to understand if there was anything any physical damage to the engine prior to that impact if they can identify that from the debris. So these are the things they will look at very initially.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: Our thanks again to Marco Chan for his expertise there. In terms of Boeing, which of course initially had said they were looking for information. Boeing now saying they are ready to support Air India. A short time ago, Richard Quest spoke specifically about the airline Air India's approach when it comes to the safety of its operations. He of course had been interviewing the CEO of Air India not too long ago. Let's take a listen to what he learned in those moments.
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QUEST: One of the things we did talk about when I was down in India, is the whole question of safety and the emphasis and significance of safety that they were putting onto the aircraft -- onto the airline. So they were very much aware of that importance. This has not been an accident, something they will have forgotten about, or they have been looking at safety from top to bottom over the last two years.
And I think that's going to be something that Campbell Wilson and the team is going to very carefully want to review. Air India has had new, I won't say a lot, but more than it should, of serious incidents and safety concerns over the last 30 or 40 years. Sorting that out, rebuilding that safety culture in the airline was very much part of the agenda for Campbell Wilson and the new team that was brought in.
As they basically rebuilt Air India from the ground up. I mean, when you took over, there was stuff at Air India that were using Gmail accounts because the internal systems were so bad. Now it's a different airline, and they will be deeply concerned as to what has happened that has caused this accident to take place. It's way too soon for us to have any real knowledge of it, other than the obvious. These things are not supposed to happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: And our Richard quest there. I want to also bring back in CNN Aviation Analyst Miles O'Brien. Miles, as we're walking through the information that we have, and of course more of it coming in these moments of breaking news, there were specific moments from some video that we have that was captured from someone on the ground of the flight just before that jet in fact crashed.
[08:55:07]
You know there were things that stood out to you. We do have those still images now that we're going to bring in. Just walk us through what you're seeing in these moments?
O'BRIEN: Well, Erica, what I'm seeing right there is an aircraft that's not in the configuration you would expect. If you look at the trailing edge of the wings, it appears the flaps are not deployed. Flaps are crucial aerodynamic devices which aircraft use on departure. It increases the lift of the wing to allow it to have enough lift to fly at the slower speed you would expect during the takeoff portion of the flight. Without flaps, the wings would not be able to generate enough lift to allow the aircraft to maintain flight to climb.
The other thing that's interesting here is this aircraft is climbing and still has its landing gear down. Now the landing gear would normally be stowed away once there's a positive rate of ascent declared by the pilot flying and the pilot monitoring would raise the gear. This decreases the amount of drag that the aircraft encounters and allows it to fly more effectively.
So why was the gear down and the landing -- excuse me, the gear down and the flaps up as this picture seems to suggest? This is going to be the beginning of the questions that are asked by investigators as they listen to those black boxes, to the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder, which I'm pretty confident they will be able to recover and get information from.
The fact that this aircraft, as sophisticated as it is, with so all kinds of redundant warning systems built into it and an electronic flight list and a system that checks and cross checks, including the human beings in the mix, the fact that it could depart with flaps in the wrong configuration is a big mystery. So it's hard to know what the scenario is or why those flaps are stowed. But they shouldn't be where they are based on this picture at that phase of flight.
HILL: And Miles, let's also talk about, as you point out, these images, those flight data recorders, the cockpit voice recorder will be crucial to the investigation. How will this investigation play out? India will likely be leading it, given that this happened in India, but we know the FAA said it's in contact with the NTSB. Boeing offering its support, saying they stand at the ready to help Air India. How do all those layers work together in this investigation?
O'BRIEN: Yeah, any in fact in accident investigation is kind of, you know, several parties involved, including, you know, the nation of nationality of the airline, the manufacturer of the aircraft in this case would be Boeing, the manufacturer of the engines. I believe these are Rolls Royce engines, but I'm not positive off the top of my head. Then you would -- you'd also include representatives of pilots, unions, et cetera. So all these people will come together.
And then, of course, while the lead investigative responsibility would be squarely on India, they might consult with the National Transportation Safety Board here in the U.S. because it has some specific expertise in a situation like this in recovering data from damaged black boxes, for example, or just the overall seasoning of the investigators, they might be called in. It's meant to be a collegial process. I suspect India will tap whatever help it feels it needs
But by treaty, you definitely would have, you know, representative of Boeing on the accident investigation team to try to sort this out. The whole idea with Aviation, Erica, is to -- when there's an accident to learn from it. And this is part of that process so that all the parties can understand what happened. So future aircraft will have additional safety layers built into them.
HILL: Miles, live in this world of immediacy in this moment. Understandably, the families of those on board are going to want, they need answers as quickly as possible. There's also this expectation in greater society that we know things quickly. That being said, there is a chance that we could have information, perhaps a little bit faster than normal because of the location of those black boxes. How quickly can that data be synthesized?
O'BRIEN: Well, they can recover them as quickly as we both have surmised here.
