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CNN Live Event/Special
CNN Saturday Morning Table for Five. Controversy over Release of Epstein Files Causing Doubt for Some in MAGA Movement about President Trump; President Trump Calls for Execution of Democratic Lawmakers for Sedition after Their Ad Calling for Military Members to Disobey Illegal Orders; New York City Mayor-Elect Zohran Mamdani has Cordial Meeting with President Trump in White House; Vice President J.D. Vance Expressing Understanding for Americans Who Feel U.S. Economy Performing Poorly for Them. Aired 10-11a ET.
Aired November 22, 2025 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:00:35]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Today, they follow him, back him, defend him on most everything -- until now. Why the Epstein scandal shattered Donald Trump's hold on the MAGA base.
Plus --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not going to shut up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's going to get a lot of us killed.
PHILLIP: The president's shock and awe rhetoric is a decade old tradition. But when does it become too shocking to ignore?
Also --
ZOHRAN MAMDANI, (D) NEW YORK CITY MAYORAL CANDIDATE: I have four words for you -- turn the volume up.
PHILLIP: Trump meets with the man he calls a communist set to destroy his hometown. Is the chat for a slice of theater or goodwill for Gotham?
And when the number two breaks on issue number one.
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: We have the hottest economy we've ever had.
J.D. VANCE, (R) VICE PRESIDENT: We get it, and we hear you.
PHILLIP: J.D. Vance admits reality while his boss denies it.
Here in studio, Terry Schilling, Cari champion, Sam Seder, and Astead Herndon. It's the weekend. Join the conversation at a "TABLE FOR FIVE".
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Hello everyone. I'm Abby Phillip in New York. And for months we have seen the cracks in MAGA world start to form. But this week, the earthquake some of Donald Trump's staunchest supporters have taken issue with is his foreign deals, his military strikes, his defense of Tucker Carlson, his ballrooms, the economy, and for the most part, they disagree and move on. But one issue that Trump could not beat back. The president has tried keeping the Epstein files a secret. He's threatened Republicans. He's called them stupid. His Justice Department declared it case closed just a few months ago, his Republican speaker held up a vote for weeks. But when Trump realized that the vote wouldn't go in his favor, he turned the tables and he ordered the DOJ to investigate Democrats, even though Epstein recently revealed emails mentioned Trump many times, including the claim that he knew about the girls.
So, while the president did sign the bipartisan bill to release the files, there are still many questions about what we will see and when. And some MAGA voices are no longer following along blindly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIM DILLON, HOST, "THE TIM DILLON SHOW": This is the end of the Trump administration. This is the beginning of the lame duck presidency. It's obvious to everyone, even his most ardent, ardent supporters show up to the White House, like Laura Ingraham, she's kind of shocked, going, what the hell is going on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Epstein files.
JOE ROGAN, HOST, "THE JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE": I heard there's no files. I heard it's a hoax.
(LAUGHTER)
ROGAN: And then all of a sudden he's going to release the files. Well, I thought there was no files.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Man.
ROGAN: He wants an investigation now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen.
ROGAN: Like, what is going on?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: What is going on? Astead, why do you think this has been the thing that after all -- of all the things that Trump has done, this is the thing that has caused MAGA to crack?
ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think there's a few issues that make Trump look inauthentic, that make him side with the political establishment or insiders over outsiders. I think that the MAGA base is made up of a lot of different slices, and I've talked to many of them who really see Trump as a bulwark against the rich and powerful, even though he always embodied that every step of his career. They saw him as something that was an outsider against those folks.
This has changed that and I think has really kind of struck to the heart of what folks find the sequel that has been, I think, less tethered to the maybe working class values he espoused on trial. He hasn't actually followed through on that. On the economy, on several other things, I think Epstein has really crystallized that.
It doesn't surprise me that this has been the issue to cut through noise, because particularly in matters, I think in gerrymandered districts, when things are reaching Republicans, and that is the slice of people. Reuters poll had 60 percent of Republicans thought the government had was keeping parts of the Epstein file secret, had something to hide. That's a unique issue among the landscape.
PHILLIP: Yes, to your point, this Marquette Law poll asked the question a bit differently. It asks his approval rating on Epstein, this Epstein situation. Among Republicans, he can't even hit 50 percent in terms of approval. He's at 43 percent. And then we're in the teens with Democrats and independents.
Terry, what do you make of what Astead just said there? I mean, is this Trump really kind of betraying his outsider persona and siding with not just the establishment, but, I mean, many in MAGA believe that this is a conspiracy in the truest sense of the word, a cabal of people trying to protect the rich and the powerful. And Trump seems to be siding with them.
[10:05:07]
TERRY SCHILLING, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN PRINCIPLES PROJECT: Yes. Look, I think that for most of the base in MAGA and a lot of the activists that were his most loyal supporters, I think this move was very shocking to them. They voted for him to expose the elite AND the rich. And so they were shocked when he didn't want to release it.
However, that's all coming true now. The documents are going to be released. We're going to see everything that's in there. And that's a good thing. That's a good thing for America.
Now, I think there were a lot of reasons that you could decide to not want to release the full Epstein files, right. There are probably going to be a lot of innocent names of people. These are -- these are every email. These are the text messages. This is everything that Epstein ever touched. So there's going to be a lot of innocent people implicated in there that were not involved in sexual exploitation.
But the reality is, is that President Trump, the question about whether or not he is an opponent of sexual exploitation of children is clear. He has been doing everything he can to clean up the Department of Education from all the sexual innuendo that's been pushed in our schools. He's been banning the sex change procedures for minors. But even -- he signed the, one of the most popular bills he signed into law this year was to take it down act, which was to protect young people from sexual exploitation. These are the accusations, there's a lot of conspiracy theories out there that Trump is in the Epstein files, and that's the reason he didn't do it.
PHILLIP: But we know he's in the Epstein files. That's not a conspiracy.
SCHILLING: He's not implicated.
PHILLIP: But he is in them. I mean, he is in them.
SCHILLING: But there's lots of people in there. And what's actually in there is Epstein and Michael Wolff trying to take him down.
PHILLIP: Well, that's -- no, that's in the emails that are from his estate that are more recent in nature. The actual Epstein files, we're talking about investigative documents. We're talking about photographs. We're talking about things that go back to where this really all started, which is decades ago.
CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: And also the bill that you talk about, perhaps innocent people. I just want to point something out. I do, from my understanding, the bill was made so that they could protect certain people whose names were mentioned. And so therefore there might be redacted.
But I do believe that if in fact, everything is released, I mean, I can't tell. It's not like there were all of these different, you know, caveats. But if everything is released, it will be clear and present danger who is dangerous in the sense that they're not going to just mention names of people and say that person did it. If in fact, it comes out the way it does. I still have my reservations. I still feel like there might be things that we aren't going to see fully. I don't know about President Trump being an advocate for children, if you will, and making sure that they're protected. I don't know much about that, but what I do know, he is in the files and he is -- most of his presidency, he's saying, guess what, we don't need to look at this. It's no big deal. It's no big deal. Theres nothing here. Now he's like, it's all about the Democrats.
SAM SEDER, HOST, "THE MAJORITY REPORT": He not only said, it's no big deal. He's been the one who has stopped the release of these files. He could say tomorrow. He didn't need legislation for this. He could have he could have released these things.
And the idea that he has somehow some bona fides, they're pulling they're pulling DHS people off of human trafficking. They're pulling FBI off of human trafficking to go and essentially, you know, arrest restaurant owners or people working in restaurants. So, I mean, his priorities are a complete joke in that regard.
But we don't know what's in there. And it could be even more expansive than him protecting a pedophile. It could be -- it could involve financial irregularities. It could be other things about Trump. I mean, he's all over this stuff, or he's the one --
PHILLIP: Or it could be, I mean, or it could be nothing about it. I mean, you know what I mean? I do think it is some reason.
SEDER: There's some reason he doesn't want this to go --
SCHILLING: It could be it's a distraction from fixing the economy.
SEDER: This could have been --
SCHILLING: This could be a distraction from a lot of different things.
SEDER: This could have been over six months ago.
PHILLIP: Here's why I don't think that's a plausible explanation, because again, there are many things that happen that are a distraction from the economy that Trump is very much actively engaged in. He threw Marjorie Taylor Greene underneath a 50-ton bus, OK, this week. And here's what she had to say about that, and I think it's really telling that she is the one who is really on the receiving end of Trump's ire on this issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, (R-GA): I wasn't a Johnny come lately to the MAGA train. I was day one, 2015. And I'll tell you right now, this has been one of the most destructive things to MAGA. Watching this actually turn into a fight has ripped MAGA apart. And the only thing that will speak to the powerful, courageous women behind me is when action is actually taken to release these files, and the American people won't tolerate any other bull --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I mean, she's not wrong that this has this has ripped MAGA apart in a way that we have not seen. And there have been so many things that Trump has thought are distractions, he doesn't like, whatever. He has never reacted this way.
HERNDON: Absolutely. And I also think that people haven't really fully appreciated that for the day ones, the people like Marjorie Taylor Greene that, you know, in her community, they think they chose Donald Trump.
[10:10:06]
They see themselves as a movement amongst themselves, and which Donald Trump embodied, certainly grew. But they think of themselves as somewhat beyond him.
CHAMPION: But we should also talk about those who say that she's doing this for a reason, despite the fact that they think she has ulterior motives. I do believe that she truly is upset with this person that she believed in because he is her day one. She is the person who wanted. HERNDON: I think a lot of things can be true at once. She certainly
has individual political goals. I'm not discounting those type of things. But I do believe, I've met these people who are kind of day one MAGA folks who really have followed the QAnon trail, who have followed.
PHILLIP: Pizzagate and all of this stuff.
HERNDON: Pizzagate and who have really seen him as a champion against the elites. And so I'm saying, in this moment, there has been a break because he has taken the wrong side on an issue, and they're not going to come back.
PHILLIP: I do wonder if it is if it is partly the case that the organizing principle that underlies the personality, you know, cult of Trump is this idea that he was going after the elite establishment, the -- I mean, they really do think -- I used the word "cabal" in a very specific, because they use that term to describe the sort of global elite, so to speak. That's why Pizzagate happened. Somebody went to a pizza shop with a weapon and shot the place up. And to have that house of cards just completely fall apart, it feels like it's destabilizing.
SEDER: I mean, drain the swamp, right? I mean, this is what you were talking about with the swamp, with this sort of like notion that all of these elites are going to protect each other. And he's now ostensibly protecting these elites.
And I will also say that, you know, Astead made a great point, I think. This this also serves, I think, as a surrogate for a lot of other frustrations that people may be having in the MAGA movement with Trump, but it's much harder to articulate, and not just --
PHILLIP: It's politically more tricky.
SEDER: It's politically more tricky to articulate. And this is something that's sort of low hanging. It also serves as like a descendant of QAnon and all of this.
PHILLIP: We have to leave it there on this one.
Next for us, the president floats the executions of several Democrats over a video that he calls seditious. How far is too far when it comes to rhetoric?
Plus, given their past words, you may have expected a circus when Zohran Mamdani visited the White House. But instead, it was a bromance. We'll discuss that. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:17:06]
PHILLIP: Welcome back. When it comes to Donald Trump's rhetoric, America is well rehearsed. There's been a decade of insults, provocations, controversies. You name the line, and Trump has pretty much crossed it. But did he go too far this time? Six Democrats released a video telling servicemembers to disobey illegal orders. The president called them traitors. He said that they could be executed for seditious behavior. He even promoted another message that called for their hangings.
One columnist says it's all a distraction from the bad news that he's been facing this week, from Epstein to the economy. Now, while that could most certainly be true, can it be ignored? Should it be ignored? Especially when those lawmakers say that his rhetoric is putting their lives actually in danger?
After all, Trump and Republicans get angry when Republicans -- when Democrats, excuse me, liken his behavior to a fascist or a dictator. But calling for the execution of political opponents fits the definition. And it's certainly more extreme than calling someone a descriptor.
I mean, do you think that -- I hear this sort of, like, don't fall for the okey doke, he's just trying to distract you thing from Democrats a lot. Do you think this falls into that category, or is it something else?
SEDER: Well, I mean, I think, frankly, there's I think you've got two sides that are preparing for perhaps what's going to happen over the course of the next year. Donald Trump's approval ratings are dismal. The Republican Party is on their back heels. They got destroyed, wiped out in a way that I haven't seen in 20 years in those elections two weeks ago.
And so I think there's genuine concern amongst a lot of people in the country that Donald Trump is going to send in troops. He's already got these 500-person rapid response forces that are beginning to train and are going to be able to be deployed by spring. I think there's a lot of people who are concerned about what's going to happen over the course of the next 12 months in the run up to the midterm elections.
And I think the Democrats are trying to get out in front of that. And I think Donald Trump is trying to prevent them from getting out in front of it. And, you know, his rhetoric is, of course --
CHAMPION: Terrifying. His though is terrifying.
SEDER: -- extreme. It's terrifying. But I think it's also indicative of what he's willing to do over the course of the next 12 months to make sure that Republicans retain the House.
PHILLIP: I mean, but what do you mean? Do you mean in terms of actually following through on the threats or what?
SEDER: Well, I think there is a concern that Donald Trump is going to try and prevent the midterm elections from happening --
PHILLIP: You're talking about, these are the illegal --
CHAMPION: OK. That he's trying to -- oh, OK. But I think, but let's just talk about just what's happening right now
and how we just think that he's planning ahead. What world do we live in when a president, it gives an idea that, yes, I think execution is OK for my political opponents? What world do we live in when we just ignore that and we don't talk about what that actually means? Because we're used to what he's done. He's numbed us. We're normalizing his behavior. I think that's really dangerous.
[10:20:02]
And I think all of that -- yes, it is a distraction. Yes, it is something for us to pay attention to. But how dangerous is it as we come off of a assassination of Charlie Kirk? How dangerous is it to hear him say this --
SCHILLING: I'm so glad you brought that up.
CHAMPION: As if someone, as if someone is --
SCHILLING: Because the violence in this country is one-sided, and everyone knows it, right? What Trump is talking about is sedition, which is a law and order process. It goes -- by the way, you know, George Washington had had generals who did insurrections put to death as well. Right. So like, that's our first president that we ever had. Trump is --
PHILLIP: Wait. Hold on, hold on, hold on.
(LAUGHTER)
SCHILLING: Let me just be clear.
PHILLIP: Are you suggesting that Trump is right that these Democrats should be put to death for sedition?
SCHILLING: No. What I'm saying is that you guys are making the same mistake that you always do about Trump, which is that you're taking him literally instead of seriously. What he is obviously pointing out --
PHILLIP: I'm sorry, he's the president of the United States. I think it is warranted to take him quite literally.
SCHILLING: You fall for this game every time.
SEDER: I'm sorry. He is not a -- he's not candidate Trump anymore. It's President Trump.
SCHILLING: What Those Democrats are doing is absolutely treasonous. It's disloyal. They are causing division within the military. Who's issuing unlawful orders?
PHILLIP: How is that treasonous.
HERNDON: How is his actions not the same type of normalizing of violent rhetoric that led to the assassinations that we've seen, that's come from D and R. I mean, we've seen, we've seen, we've seen --
SCHILLING: Which R?
HERNDON: I'm saying --
PHILLIP: Democratic lawmakers in Minnesota were assassinated.
SCHILLING: The ones that were killed after the Medicaid wasn't expanded to illegal immigrants.
PHILLIP: Hold on. Wait, excuse me?
SCHILLING: It's just all --
CHAMPION: Are you saying that's OK?
SCHILLING: No, I'm saying they were Democrats that killed them. This is not Republicans.
CHAMPION: You don't know that. You do not know that.
SCHILLING: I'm sorry, this is sensitive to me, because Charlie Kirk was actually a friend. And to hear people talk about Donald Trump and Republicans inciting violence, it's just crazy.
PHILLIP: The history of political violence in this country is not a Democrat story. That is factually inaccurate.
SCHILLING: It is in the last five years.
PHILLIP: No, it is in the last one year, one, single. OK. This year, 2025, is the first and only year in the last 20 years where leftwing violence has exceeded rightwing violence. That is a fact.
In the last five years, it's been four years, it's rightwing violence. One year, leftwing violence. So you can have the aperture only be expanded to the last 10 months. But in the history of this modern political time, that is just not accurate.
But even if it were, even if it were, Donald Trump thinks that there is a problem of political violence in this country. Why on earth are comments like these acceptable to you.
SCHILLING: Sedition is a lawful process. You have to be tried and convicted in a court of law. He's not encouraging -- this is Hitler, these people are fascists.
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. You actually believe that Democrats putting out a video saying follow the law is sedition.
SCHILLING: I think it was terrible. I think it was terrible.
PHILLIP: You think that's sedition?
SCHILLING: And look, we've already seen Democrats -- PHILLIP: Terry, let me ask you a question. Do you think the Democrats putting out a video saying this is -- follow the law, don't follow illegal orders.
SCHILLING: -- follow the law?
PHILLIP: Do you think that is sedition?
SCHILLING: Well, everyone in the military knows to follow the law.
PHILLIP: It's a yes or no question. It is a yes or no question. Is it sedition to tell people to follow the law?
SCHILLING: I think Democrats have a long standing history of undercutting the Constitution --
PHILLIP: I'm just saying you're not willing to say yes or no because it's very obvious that the answer is no.
SCHILLING: Because they --
PHILLIP: Because if that were the case, if that were the case.
SCHILLING: It's a wink and a nod, that's the reason. Their words are perfectly. It's a perfect video. But it's a wink and a nod, and it's all meant to undermine the president of United States. The military does not have a right to undermine the chief --
PHILLIP: Hold on a second. In this country, you do get to undermine the president of the united.
SCHILLING: Not if you're in the military. He's the commander in chief.
PHILLIP: No, no, if you are a member of Congress, you absolutely, in this country have, a free right to undermine the president of the United States, undermine.
SCHILLING: But they're telling the military to undermine the commander in chief.
SEDER: -- the argument that the Democrats were making in that video, because the fact is, the military is not obligated to follow illegal orders. And --
SCHILLING: Who is giving the illegal orders. Where are they? Give me the example of the illegal orders.
SEDER: The Democrats were saying specifically, you're not obligated to follow illegal orders.
SCHILLING: OK, then what illegal orders are they talking about?
SEDER: Well, in the future.
SCHILLING: Just in case. SEDER: Yes, just in the case.
SCHILLING: Because they're all crazy.
SEDER: Right now we have a judge --
(CROSS TALK)
SEDER: Trump is sending in --
SCHILLING: Just deal with the conspiracy theory that Republicans are going to stop the midterms. That's crazy. That's a conspiracy theory.
PHILLIP: All right. We have to leave it there.
CHAMPION: You got it.
PHILLIP: Just leave it there.
Next for us, the most bizarre moment of the week -- not Trump's, not Trump's tweets. It may have been inside the Oval Office when Zohran Mamdani and Donald Trump seemed to be charmed by each other. We'll discuss that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:29:07]
PHILLIP: The president called him a communist. He called the president a fascist. And now it's a big old lovefest between Donald Trump and the next mayor of New York City. Zohran Mamdani visited the White House in a surreal meeting. Despite Trump's previous threats to take away funds if the socialist won, here's a taste of what happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZOHRAN MAMDANI, (D) NEW YORK CITY MAYORAL CANDIDATE: I think both President Trump and I, we are very clear about our positions and our views. And what I really appreciate about the president is that the meeting that we had focused not on places of disagreement.
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: I want to see if this city could be unbelievable, if he could be a spectacular success, I'd be very happy. I think I met with a very -- I met with a man who is a very rational person. I met with a man who wants to see, really wants to see New York be great again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you feel comfortable living in New York City under a Mamdani administration?
TRUMP: Yes, I would. I really would. Especially after the meeting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[10:30:01]
PHILLIP: I'm going to come to you, Terry on this.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: How do you feel about that?
SCHILLING: Look, I think what we are seeing is two obvious political athletes who are respecting each other. President Trump is a competitor. Zohran Mamdani is a competitor. And I want to be clear. I'm not one of the Republicans. I disagree with, like, everything Mamdani has been proposing, and I don't think that he's actually going to solve these problems that New York is facing. However, I respect the campaign that he won, ran. And I respect the campaign and the issues that he ran on, because very few people in this country that run for public office actually talk about the needs and the crises that people actually facing every single day. And I think that Zohran Mamdani did that better than ever with talking about affordable housing. I wish Republicans would start to get on the ball on that, because if we don't address affordable housing, were going to lose our country.
PHILLIP: And Trump actually mentioned that specifically. And he said, we actually agree on making housing more affordable. He said Mamdani wants to increase the supply of housing, and so do I. And that's -- honestly, I am not surprised that this happened today. I think that this is -- this makes a lot of sense because I think that they actually are sort of two sides of the same coin politically.
HERNDON: Their movement politicians. They're both people who kind of base their politics on kind of mass movements, rather than playing that insider establishment game. I remember being at the Mamdani rally, and you hear the call and response between him and audience about free rent, about childcare, about free buses. It reminded me of hearing "build the wall" and that call and response. There's no call and response for Joe Biden. Theres no call and response.
CHAMPION: I think that what we're seeing now, I was like, of course, I think we all expected this to happen in terms of -- because they are obviously on two sides of the political spectrum, but they have that one thing in common. And I think later on we'll see more fighting, if you will. Right now, it's like, I respect you. Behind closed doors, they shook each other's -- it's like, I'll give this because I know you gentlemen go to the club a lot. I'll give this example. Right? Yes. You especially terry. So there are the hot chicks who go to the club, and then what they do, they spend their time taking pictures because they know they're getting all of the attention, and they're doing the duck lips, and they're sitting and they're getting along, and they know everybody wants to pay attention. It is a spectacle, and they're going to give you the show. And that's exactly what they did today, because they both agree. You disagree.
SEDER: No, no, no I agree. But I have to say --
CHAMPION: You've been to the club.
SEDER: No, I have rarely been to the club. But I have to say that I thought what Mamdani was able to do today was masterful. He got the president to praise FDR. I mean, if you think about this in terms of, like, who knows what's going to happen months from now in terms of how they're going to get along. But Mamdani in an hour was able to essentially blow up the idea of demonizing democratic socialists. So Elise Stefanik is now lost in the middle of the ocean without any tether. Even people like, you know, Chuck Schumer, even people within the Democratic establishment, even Hakeem Jefferies, who was afraid of Mamdani, that he was going to ruin a congressional elections around the country because they were going to run against Mamdani. They can no longer do that.
PHILLIP: So let me play one more bit from their exchange. This is Trump and Mamdani talking about the voters that they have in common. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: You said a lot of my voters actually voted for him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One in 10.
TRUMP: And I'm OK with that.
ZOHRAN MAMDANI, (D) NEW YORK CITY MAYORAL CANDIDATE: When we spoke to those voters who voted for President Trump, we heard them speak about cost of living. We focused on that same cost of living. And that's where I am really looking forward to delivering for New Yorkers in partnership with the president on the affordability agenda.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHAMPION: Mamdani did it right.
PHILLIP: Well, there is this -- I think it's, I've been saying this for a while. I just wrote a book about Jesse Jackson, a Mamdani-like politician, or Mamdani is a Jesse Jackson like politician in the sense that I don't think the left right axis is appropriate for how were looking at this.
It's also about people who just want someone from the outside coming in and saying, I'm going to fight for you. I'm going to fight for your cost of living, your way of life, your future. And I think Trump gets that. He gets it on a on a gut level.
HERNDON: He gets it on a gut level. They have diagnosed similar problems. And I met a lot of the Mamdani voters who are also Trump voters. Remember, Zohran's kind of a breakout in New York City politics is fighting alongside taxi workers. That was a big community that has a lot of overlap with kind of first time Trump voters. Those working class men of color, those younger men, those are people who Zohran brought in as well. And so I think --
CHAMPION: They were complimenting each other a lot. I think that's an easy way to get --.
TRUMP: Trump stopped a reporter from asking him about whether he was --
PHILLIP: Zohran thought he was a fascist.
CHAMPION: Yes, he's like, you don't have to answer it. The easy way to do that is to just say yes.
HERNDON: But there was such a real fear among Mamdani and the people around him that Donald Trump would impose a crisis on inauguration day, would impose an immigration crisis. This was done on purpose to try to get in front of some stuff like that. And I think there's a unique opportunity here because Donald Trump is someone uniquely invested in New York City. Donald Trump loves a winner, and Donald Trump loves a charm --he loves a charm, good looking person. And so, so much of Zohran reporting, his charm and good looks got him through a lot.
[10:35:05]
PHILLIP: And vice versa. I also think that those who have actually met Donald Trump, he's a very charming person in a one-on-one setting. So I do think that both men are kind of working each other a little bit here. But TBD. I mean, tomorrow, the next day we could see some Truth Social posts, who knows. So stand by for that.
Next for us, Donald Trump is increasingly alone on the economy as his own vice president is acknowledging the pains of Americans. Another special guest is going to be with us at the table. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:40:21]
PHILLIP: He made his name as a pitchman. But right now more and more Americans aren't buying what Donald Trump is selling. And neither are those closest to him. The president says that there is no inflation. That is not true. He insists the prices are down. They're not. He promises that polls are showing unhappy Americans are fake, and obviously those are not.
But his own vice president and one of his advisers acknowledged what Trump refuses to, which is that the economy is not all that great, and the feelings of Americans are very much real.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, (R) VICE PRESIDENT: My message to the American people who are still feeling like things are unaffordable, who are still feeling like things are rough out there, is look, we get it, and we hear you.
Even though we've made incredible progress, we understand that there's a lot more work to do. And the thing that I ask for the American people is a little bit of patience. This economy was not harmed in 10 months.
PETER NAVARRO, SENIOR COUNSELOR FOR TRADE AND MANUFACTURING, TRUMP ADMINISTRATION: People are still feeling significant pain in the inflation area. And the last thing we want to be doing is to tell people things are getting better when they're feeling pain.
STEVE BANNON, FORMER ADVISER TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: So did the did the White House and people sell the golden age too early, that the golden age is coming, but there's a lot of --
NAVARRO: We have gotten the memo.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Justin Wolfers joins us at the table.
You know, the most interesting thing about those two clips is that one of them happened at Breitbart. The other one happened with Steve Bannon. They are preaching to the choir and trying to convince folks in the church that things are going great. And I think that is the biggest red flag that things are not going so great.
JUSTIN WOLFERS, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS AND PUBLIC POLICY, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: Yes, so tell one story in front of your mates and a completely different story to the rest of America. The completely different story the president hasn't stopped. Prices are going down he says. Every, every single one of us has watched us, knows the opposite. We go to stores. I'm a nerd. I'm an economist. I can tell you we collect data. Everything the president has been saying about this is a lie. But behind closed doors, it seems like his colleagues are telling a different story.
PHILLIP: And they're rolling back the tariffs. It's as simple as that. I mean, I think if they're rolling back some of the tariffs, that's a sign that they understand the tariffs are not helpful.
SCHILLING: Look, what I will say is, is that under the Biden administration we saw two really bad things happen. Purchasing power for Americans on average fell by $2,900. That means that wages didn't grow, or that inflation grew faster than inflation for that year.
But what we're seeing under, what we also saw under Biden was that mortgage rates went up by 425 basis points. Americans were paying an average of over $1,200 more per month for their mortgage under Joe Biden.
What we're seeing now under President Trump is not perfect. It's not great. It's not the end. But it's starting to recede. What they've actually seen now is that real wage growth has exceeded inflation by $700. So we've got about a third of that back. But also mortgage rates are going down. They've gone -- I think they've gone down by 70 basis points. So now there's still a long way to go, but there is progress being made. It's not perfect. We're not done.
And Americans are still hurting, and they're growing impatient because they've been hurt so badly. But what President Trump is actually trying to do is he's trying to reform the entire economy. Instead of being about just big corporations only to being about working families. And I think that that's what his agenda represents. Agree or disagree, that's what he's working towards. PHILLIP: I'll say it again, he's rolling back the tariffs, some of
them. And if he thought that this was all great, I don't think we would be seeing them doing that.
WOLFERS: It's a remarkable admission, right. I tried to policy. Oh, everyone tells me I want the cost of living to be lower. Let me reverse it. The only implication is that he's learned what I will tell you the 18 year olds at the University of Michigan learn in Econ 101, which is tariffs raise prices.
CHAMPION: I was going to say, when you, at the onset of his presidency and he's talking about tariffs, what was your first thought? Just your forecast right away, were you like, this is going to help the economy?
WOLFERS: I was certainly not of the view that this was a fellow who had done well in his own Econ 101 classes.
(LAUGHTER)
WOLFERS: And it wasn't me. What you saw was every Wall Street economist mark down their forecasts for the future of the economy.
I think you're really onto something. What is the governing principle here? You said something about, you know, it's not just for big business. You know, I think that's exactly upside down and exactly wrong. The president loves to call big business. He brings them in. Tim Apple brings in a big gold bauble. You know, the guy is bring in a Rolex and he chats to them. It's perfect. If I were a pure free market guy, what I would think is great is if the president knew no one's name, didn't know the name of any CEO.
[10:45:00]
Because the idea of free markets, the idea that that Reagan was in favor of was we set the rules. You guys go out there and compete. Instead, what the presidents doing is he's putting a thumb on the scale here, a thumb on the scale there. And if you walk in on the wrong day, you might walk out with 10 percent less of your company as well.
PHILLIP: He seems very concerned about making sure that they show up at the White House for his very fancy dinners, because -- and they're happy to do it because they know that if they show up, they'll get more favors from the administration, which again, is kind of counter to the sort of we are going to be working for you, workingman.
HERNDON: I think it is the reason why we have seen his numbers go in reverse. We know the economy and people's disapproval of his handling is driving that. But I think even more so he has he has done a 180 on the promise that brought him here. I think there was a working class, you know, inroads he made with some of those voters off the promise he would present a different type of GOP economic vision. The big bill still amounts to a larger wealth transfer. We still see him making those carveouts for individual CEOs and companies. And I think the SNAP benefits are still on the line. Like, that through line, in my opinion, has caused a causational
relationship with the with the with the economy that Trump has made. He cannot make the argument that this is Biden's economy because tariffs cut through, and he has no one except himself to blame.
PHILLIP: And to your point, Americans --
CHAMPION: But Tim apple, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but he said Tim Apple -- no, he called him Tim Apple, which I love. It's a fun joke.
WOLFERS: I'm one of those hipster guys.
CHAMPION: But it's the actual equivalent of people complaining about the Democrats having too many celebrities. Like if you remember, that was the complaint. Why are you marching out all these celebrities during your campaign? They don't really affect and/or have any kind of say. You're doing the opposite. You're turning the American people off. Tim Apple, absolutely. People are starting to see that. His name is not Tim Apple. It's a joke, but you get it. Thank you.
PHILLIP: All right. One last, one last thing.
WOLFERS: To pick up on Tim Apple, because I think it's a big deal. That company, Apple, used to be two blokes in a garage. Two blokes in a garage founded an amazing company. Two blokes in a garage can't call the White House. The big behemoths can. So the two blokes in a garage, which is the future of American innovation, it now is at an enormous disadvantage.
SCHILLING: So he's supposed to turn down a meeting with Tim Cook?
PHILLIP: Listen, it -- I don't think anybody is saying that.
WOLFERS: I would. I think Biden did.
PHILLIP: It's about relatively, who is he acting on behalf of? And it seems very much that he's acting on behalf of those folks.
I just want to say, who is responsible for the current economic conditions? And 62 percent say Donald Trump in a new FOX poll. It's not even really close. They are over Joe Biden, if you want to put it that way.
Next for us, the panel's unpopular opinions, what they are not afraid to say out loud.
But first, we've got a programing note for you. CNN's David Culver explores the rise of exorcisms across Christian faiths in the United States. "The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper" Sunday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern on CNN, and the next day on the CNN app.
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[10:52:39]
PHILLIP: We're back, and it's time for your unpopular opinions. You each have 30 seconds to tell us yours. Sam, you're up.
SEDER: I have a problem with algorithms. I think we should use antitrust laws, and I think we should get rid of algorithms. I think we should more or less make them illegal. No more feeding us stuff on YouTube. I think it's bad for society, both in terms of our citizenry and in terms of our culture. I think it's bad on Amazon. I think it's a way that we get exploited. I would even, I may have a little squishiness on Netflix algorithm. But even then, we need to get rid of them.
PHILLIP: Back to the stone ages of old Facebook.
SEDER: Yes, exactly.
PHILLIP: All right, Astead?
HERNDON: Mine is for the musician creatives out there. My unpopular opinion is I hate when a song fades out. I think that it feels kind of lazy to me. It feels like you have taken me through a journey of storytelling as a writer, as a like -- put a period at the end, put some punctuation at the end. Find a way to end the song. Don't just fade a song out at the end. Songs fade at the end way too much. It feels lazy to me.
PHILLIP: Some of the best moments in a song are in the last 15 seconds of a fade out.
HERNDON: I can see the point. I like a hard ending a lot more.
PHILLIP: All right, Cari.
CHAMPION: I love adlibbing. They don't do that anymore.
OK, I'm a fan of tradition. You'll appreciate this. I love tradition, and I think that we should bring some traditions back. I'm surfing the interwebs, as I like to call them. And I've been seeing probably three or four women drop down on their knees and propose to a man, and say, guess what? I'm going to do it. Why not?
So before this becomes a trend, make it stop before it starts. Bring back the men who say, guess what? I want to propose to a woman despite what my circumstances are. You know, commitment, those things that people used to do. You used to go to war. You guys used to go to war. And then and then you used to then propose as you went off to war. Like, you know what? Stay here. Sheila, I'm going to take care of you. What happened to those days? Ladies, stop it! Theres just no need to propose to a man. And this is coming from a woman who has a man. I'm not -- I'm saying there will be no dropping on my knees.
PHILLIP: All right, there you go. You heard it here first.
CHAMPION: There you go.
PHILLIP: Terry?
SCHILLING: Look, my unpopular opinion is that my wife and I have seven children with our eighth on the way next spring.
PHILLIP: Congrats.
SCHILLING: Thank you. And I think the world will be a lot better off if everyone had eight kids.
[10:55:03]
PHILLIP: I don't know about me.
SCHILLING: Not eight kids, but more kids.
PHILLIP: More kids, more kids.
SCHILLING: You learn so much about humanity. You become a better person when you really dive in and become a good father. You spend time with your kids. You learn each one of these kids is so unique. They're so different. And you know, I have little memories with each of them so far. They're each better than the next one. And I just think more people should be --
PHILLIP: Each better than the next one?
SCHILLING: Oh, no, I have favorites.
PHILLIP: Your kid.
All right, I'm one of six, so I understand the big family thing. Eight is a lot. But more kids, more kids is good.
All right, everyone, thank you so much.
Thanks for watching "TABLE FOR FIVE". You can catch me every weeknight at 10:00 p.m. eastern with our Newsnight Roundtable and anytime on your favorite social media, X, Instagram, and TikTok.
But in the meantime, CNN's coverage continues right now.
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