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CNN Live Event/Special
CNN Saturday Morning Table For Five. Trump's Explosive Week Suggests Political Vulnerability; Trump's Name Added To Kennedy Center Despite Legal Questions; Trump's Handpicked Board Adds His Name To "Kennedy Center"; Vance: DEI Is "Deliberate" Discrimination Against White Men. Aired 7-8a ET
Aired December 20, 2025 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:00:30]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Today, from surreal behavior to a party revolt. Why this week suggests the president is becoming politically vulnerable?
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: This is a first time I've seen a Donald Trump. I'm not afraid of.
SIDNER (voice over): Plus, name games. After putting his likeness on coins and passes, it appears the Kennedy Center is also getting Trumpified. And J.D. Vance says DEI is nothing more than discrimination against white men, and is urging them to sue.
ANDREA LUCAS, CHAIR, EQUAL EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY COMMISSION: Are you a white male who has experienced discrimination at work?
SIDNER (voice over): Also, are Donald Trump's warrior checks a shell game?
TRUMP: We are sending every soldier $1,776.
SIDNER (voice over): Turns out, the president is paying bonuses to troops using their housing money.
Here in studio, Cari Champion, Joe Borelli, Brianna Lyman, and Paul Mecurio. It's the weekend. Join the conversation at a TABLE FOR FIVE.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Hey there. I'm Sara Sidner, in for Abby Phillip.
What a year this week has been for Donald Trump. Less than 24 hours after Rob Reiner's tragic murder, the president verbally attacked the late director and claimed he died because he was highly critical of Trump.
There was a bipartisan response, not OK. And Trump's chief of staff gives a stunning series of interviews. She reveals what she really thinks of several advisers and Trump policies, and even gives a surprising assessment of her boss, saying he has the personality of an alcoholic.
Plus, Trump, delivers a forceful and fast-paced prime time address. He said America's problems are not his fault, but that he's fixed them. Reaction from both sides of the aisle.
Also, he and the Republican-led House go on vacation without a solution on health care, despite prices for millions of Americans about to skyrocket.
And last and probably least, he hung plaques mocking his predecessors on the walls of the White House. That too, was criticized by some in the Republican Party. So, what does this all tell us? Listen to a variety of opinions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): The Republicans are losers. Why are you bending the knee at this point in time?
The ship be sinking? It's over. This is the Titanic. I don't get it.
JONES: I am not scared to that guy. I'm not. This is the first time I've seen a Donald Trump. I'm not afraid of.
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): I think the dam is breaking. That is a sign where you are seeing Republicans, they are entering the campaign phase for 2026, which is a large signal that lame duck season has begun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: All right. So, I guess the big question is, it's a couple of things. Is the ship sinking? Is the dam breaking? I will start with you, Joe.
JOE BORELLI, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Is the ship think -- sinking? Is the dam breaking?
(CROSSTALK)
CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: It is thinking.
BORELLI: How, how --
PAUL MECURIO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: It's thinking and it's sinking.
SIDNER: I know sinking, but it is --
MECURIO: It's too early at Saturday morning.
CHAMPION: Definitely thinking.
BORELLI: How, in God's name are we talking about? What a week it was for Donald Trump, when the biggest issue he ran on the economy. Right? That's what he talked about. He talked about the economy and immigration. On the economy, two great numbers came in. On inflation, it is being reduced, things are going absolutely in the right direction on inflation. And on the jobs -- I'm sorry, on the job's numbers.
So, things are going absolutely great for the president, and I think it's absurd that we could talk about how bad of a week he is having when America is having such a good week.
SIDNER: So, inflation did cool to 2.7 percent. That was a good thing for consumers. But when it comes to jobs, the job numbers are concerning to a lot of Americans. The unemployment was at four percent when he took office. It's now at about 4.6 percent. One of the highest unemployment rates since 2021. How do you see it, Cari?
CHAMPION: First and foremost, I -- God bless you. The dinking, I was teasing him.
BORELLI: Oh, I'm sorry.
CHAMPION: So, let's have a little fun. I wanted to address you are saying the president had a good week, when Americans are having a good week.
I just don't see what America do you live in right now? I'm a little concerned by that. I think the president is having an awful week. We are talking about Rob Reiner, his unhinged tweet. What is your answer to that? That's not a great week.
BORELLI: Look --
CHAMPION: This man inserted himself in a brutal double murder and made it about himself.
BORELLI: What affects me more? Rob Reiner and something he said, or how the economy is doing.
[07:05:03]
MECURIO: Yes, but you can't parse it out.
CHAMPION: No. You can't -- you can't parse it out.
MECURIO: So, this is what we -- this is what we do, right?
CHAMPION: Yes. We can.
MECURIO: We sort of, we go like this to some of it, and then, we embrace other.
First of all, it's 2.7 versus three percent. It's three-tenths of one percent. So, it's not like money is falling from the sky.
BORELLI: Is it a good thing or a bad thing?
MECURIO: It's not a bad thing, but it's not a great thing.
BORELLI: So, it's a good thing. It's a good thing.
MECURIO: But go to my neighbors who are still spending -- my wife wants to get a notebook for me. I want to fight buying five -- $15 for a notebook. I'm not kidding you. OK? So, people are not feeling it at home.
CHAMPION: No,
MECURIO: So, when he -- when he does this thing with Rob Reiner. Look, this was a hug your kid moment for everybody in this country, right? Everybody is part of a family. Everybody has got problems in their family. This brutal thing happens. It was a -- could have been a win for him. You can't -- you can't get out of his own way.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: And it also speaks to his mental acuity. He can't get -- it speaks to his mental acuity. If you want to take time out, especially, we are moments after Bondi, and you want to take time out to talk about we want to have revenge, and we still don't -- unemployment is a huge issue. Numbers are not right. We are just now finding that out. And to your point, the inflation wasn't that much. It was just -- it was mutable, in my opinion. Not great mutable.
(CROSSTALK)
MECURIO: I just to tag on that, and then, I don't want to monopolize the time. But like, he is also supposed to be an emotional leader like FDR was during the depression in World War II. That was a moment where everybody in the country needed a hug. Everybody needed to go, oh my God. Instead, and then, are we forgetting about the two kids that are living and the family, like, he is not the only one in the world.
He is not perfect. I'm not bashing in that sense.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look at me.
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: He is -- he is not --
MECURIO: But like we got it, we can't, we can't forgive one thing because another thing is going well.
BORELLI: Point stipulated. He is not the hugger in chief of his enemies. That is a 100 percent.
MECURIO: Well, he is far --
BORELLI: Stipulated point. I guess my -- the point I'm trying to make is, you look back at the year, he ran on two big issues, inflation, economy and immigration, right? We can debate the economy, and you can point to some facts that are -- that are good, some facts that are bad. But on the other one, I mean, this has been an incredible year on closing the border. That was something that I voted for.
I didn't vote for him to hug me when I needed a hand or when I needed a pat on the back. I voted him -- for him to stop those two problems.
CHAMPION: You voted for him to get rid of war. You voted for him not to be divisive. You voted for him to make this America a better.
BORELLI: I did not vote for him not to be divisive. The one thing on media.
CHAMPION: So, you voted for him to make America great again?
BORELLI: And I think he is doing it.
CHAMPION: And I disagree with you wholeheartedly, and I think most Americans feel that way.
SIDNER: I do want to ask you, Brianna, one of the big issues here that it's almost the elephant, if you will, in the room, in many different ways, are the subsidies that are not going to go through. And so, people will see their premiums skyrocket.
We are talking more than 40 million Americans. What do you do about that? Your president has said, I have a plan. Put one forward. Republicans outright rejected it. It got taken back. Republicans said they had a plan. It does not address this issue.
And now, we are in the scenario where in a couple of weeks, you are going to see these skyrocketing premiums, and people are scared.
BRIANNA LYMAN, ELECTIONS CORRESPONDENT, THE FEDERALIST: And let me just say to people who are scared at home, I completely empathize with you. It is hard for families in this economy, which to Joe's point, we are on the right trajectory. Things don't feel amazing right now. So, it is hard for families, and I sympathize with them.
I'm disappointed in Republicans who have had 15 years to come up with something to replace Obamacare with, and they haven't come up with something that I, at least, find satisfactory. That being said when it comes to the subsidies, these are subsidies that were passed in 2022 and Democrats were very smart. They said, let's make this a three-year extension.
I think, they thought they were going to win in November 2024 and they were going to be able to extend those subsidies again.
I don't think they calculated that they would lose and they would have to work with Republicans on this. So, this is a big part.
90 percent of it is Democrats' fault. One, for passing Obamacare to begin with. We were told this was going to lower health care costs. Now, we are being told, if the government doesn't subsidize us again, people can't afford their health care. And two, they keep wanting to kick the can down the line. At some point we have to open that can up and say, what's going on? And if Republicans don't have response to that right now, it's unfortunate for everyone involved, but the blame should fall on Democrats' shoulders.
MECURIO: But Johnson is trying to kick the can down the road, and the moderate Republicans stepped in. Right? They basically told him, if you're not going to deal with the extremists, we will. You're out, right? This is they are using, it's a -- it's transactional, really realism in the House, all right?
They basically, it's not that they believe necessarily in extending the subsidies. It's politically expedient to save their jobs. To say, you know what, we are going to meet the Democrats halfway on this. So, to say 90 percent of it is their fault, you could also say that the Republicans are not meeting the Democrats halfway on this.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Well, they shouldn't have --
MECURIO: They want it all or nothing on some level. No.
LYMAN: Wait. And I don't think Republicans should have the burden of meeting Democrats halfway on a policy that has been, one, rife with fraud and abuse; and two, has cost way more money than they were even promised originally. I do think Republicans failed. And that again, 15 years later, they don't really have something that's great to replace it with. That they could have been working on.
But to pretend like this is a Republican problem. Democrats created Obamacare. They told us it was the Affordable Care Act, and now it's anything but affordable.
[07:10:02]
MECURIO: I'll give you that. I mean, the Democrat is flawed.
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: I do. You think because -- I think the solution that they have sort of proposed that the White House has been pushing, how we are going to basically, you know, get people subsidized to choose their own program. I think that has always been the Republican solution to the Affordable Care Act. It's just surprising, like you pointed out, it's been a decade.
LYMAN: Yes,
BORELLI: And you think they would have worked out the kinks and kicked the tires a little bit and have something ready to go. They knew they were going to be in this position a year ago, I would have hoped there would have been a little bit more emphasis on being in a forward fighting position at this point. SIDNER: I mean, excuse me for being a bit skeptical here, because it has been so long, because this has been one of the biggest issues for Americans. One of their biggest fears is that they either go bankrupt or they are left literally to die and can't get their medications.
As to why there has not been a plan. There has been a lot of complaining about Obamacare, but there hasn't been a robust coming together to say, all right, here is our plan. And I do want to remind folks what it felt like before Obamacare for a lot of people, pre- existing conditions were a problem. If you, for example, had cancer, you may not be able to get insurance, and that was one of the big things that the ACA, or Obamacare, as it's referred to, helped people with. So, there is a lot of questions, but you have as to why this --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: But it also took people's doctors away. You were told you could keep your doctor feel like your doctor. So many Americans lost their doctor too.
(CROSSTALK)
SIDNER: That was an issue.
LYMAN: People are still -- we were told this is going to be affordable. It is anything but affordable, and people who are on private insurance are now subsidizing this massive program that just doesn't seem to stop growing. It's like a big a Jell-O.
MECURIO: It is broken. But -- and what we want our politicians to do is they are not perfect. The Democrats flawed.
LYMAN: Yes.
MECURIO: Definitely, Republicans flawed. Fix it. Fix something that's broken. Who cares whose fault it is?
SIDNER: All right, we are going to put a pause on that.
Up next, Donald Trump keeps putting his face and name on government property. The latest, the Kennedy Center and the Kennedy family is responding, as you may imagine they might.
Plus, the vice president tells white men to sue over DEI discrimination. We'll discuss his reasoning next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:16:59]
SIDNER: New signage is being installed at Washington's performing arts center after the Kennedy Center board voted this week to change the name of the renowned facility to the Trump-Kennedy Center. The cultural complex now joins a growing list of federal buildings, programs, and initiatives that President Trump has put his name on. TRUMP: Well, I was honored by that. The board is a very distinguished board, most distinguished people in the country, and I was surprised by it, and they voted on it, and there is a lot of board members, and they voted unanimously.
SIDNER: JFK's family members are outraged by the change. His grand- nephew, former Congressman Joe Kennedy III said, "The center is a living memorial to a fallen president and named so by federal law."
JFK's niece, Maria Shriver said, "This is not dignified. This is not funny. This is way beneath the stature of the job. It's downright weird. It's obsessive in a weird way. Just when you think someone can't stoop any lower down, they go,
All right. Let's discuss. Who would like to begin this? I'm going to start with you, Paul. What do you make of putting your name on so many different things that are owned by the people.
MECURIO: Yes. I try with spray paint. I got arrested. So, I know we have two people here lean right, and I want you to understand something. I'm the guy in the middle. Right? I -- this is not about me spending an hour bashing this guy. I would say this about anybody.
This is incredibly disrespectful to JFK. He is a commander in chief. He served -- he lost his life serving our country. This would be no different than if we decided to start changing names on the Vietnam Memorial, people would be up in arms. So, in that respect, it's just untenable, not because he's Trump, not because he is a Republican.
SIDNER: Can I --
MECURIO: Also, just one more thing. Also, it's laughable, the way he describes it. It's mob boss-like. It's like, I didn't say you had to put my name on it. I'd say it just would be unfortunate if you didn't.
LYMAN: If you didn't. Yes, right.
MECURIO: If an accident were to befall you, perhaps, if there were not -- so, it's sort of like, and that's insulting to the American public, and he needs to stop doing that. They all do. All the politicians. Just be straight. Yes, I strong arm the board into this. Next.
LYMAN: You know, I -- to be honest, I didn't spend too much time looking at this because I didn't think it was that big of a deal, given the grand scheme of things that happened this week.
But I personally don't care that much, but I do find it funny, Paul, that you care and that the Kennedy's care, because no one in your party cared in 2020 when you guys were changing names of hospitals, parks, schools, streets, everything in the name of George Floyd.
In fact, Wikipedia --
BORELLI: You know, we promise that, because I'm not a Democrat.
SIDNER: Yes. LYMAN: Wikipedia has an entire page called list of name changes due to the George Floyd protest. It is the longest Wikipedia page I've ever seen. So, people who are up in arms about name changes now were mostly silent. The second point I'd make, I think it's really disingenuous for the Kennedys and for anyone to sit here and pretend like they care so much about the Kennedy Center. Because I don't know how many of you guys have been to the Kennedy Center prior to Donald Trump taking office.
I was there in 2023.
[07:20:00]
I was in a VIP box. That should be pretty nice. The seats were stayed. I literally sat down. I was like, Is this wet? Is this fresh? The floors were dirty. This is a place that was decrepit, and all of this on top of people getting exorbitant salaries. So, people who were running the Kennedy Center, or who claimed to love and care about the Kennedy Center, said nothing when it was falling into disrepair and President Trump comes in, they are renovating. They cut salaries that were needlessly high. They are bringing people to come and see the arts for once.
It was not that lively of an institution under the Biden administration. So, don't pretend like you care about the Kennedy Center now, when you were quiet, when it was falling into disrepair.
CHAMPION: I -- well, first thing you refer to 2020, in the name of George Floyd. I think it was -- wasn't just in the name of George Floyd. I think that this --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Was it the right for (INAUDIBLE).
CHAMPION: I think, that this country had a racial reckoning. And that they understood -- please, let me finish, because I let you finish. They had a racial reckoning. And they understood that this country had done some things that were very unfair, especially to marginalize, especially to black people, and they were giving tributes and statues to people who were slave owners, who weren't who were considered heroes at one point, depending on how you look --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Like, Jefferson and Washington.
CHAMPION: Yes. Well, I can tell you what else he did. I can tell you what else Thomas Jefferson did. Right?
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Being a slave owner was not -- anything about Thomas Jefferson.
CHAMPION: Let's -- I'm still -- I'm still talking. And the second thing is, is that once they realize that these people, according to history, were not really the heroes that they had been betrayed us.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: They absolutely are the heroes.
CHAMPION: They realized that they had did awful things to people who did not deserve it, who could not speak for themselves.
LYMAN: You are speaking because of people like Jefferson.
CHAMPION: I'm speaking freely because I'm a free black woman and I'm allowed to speak freely.
LYMAN: With the First Amendment -- Washington.
CHAMPION: And the reality is, is that they may have over corrected, but right now, they are over correcting in another way.
The fact that Trump is putting his name on every single thing, and you want to normalize it like it's normal, tells me that you're the problem and not the solution. This man's mental acuity is off. He clearly is unstable, and no one is talking about it.
You have a walk of fame, and you're talking about other presidents in a derogatory way. This is the highest office in the land.
LYMAN: Yes.
CHAMPION: And I'm just going to go back to the basis. What he has done is disrespected it, and people such as yourself want to normalize that behavior. And what Maria Shriver was suggesting was like, this isn't funny anymore. Let's take a look at what's happening.
You can't normalize this behavior. This is one of many things that this president has done that should not be normalized. And if we keep continuing to look away, we will find ourselves in a state of disrepair that we cannot come back from.
BORELLI: Yes --
LYMAN: Hold on. Wait, wait, wait. I just -- I have -- Cari and I were --
SIDNER: Hold on. Hold on. Let -- I want -- we'll come to you. I just want Joe --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Joe has got this big so much with more.
SIDNER: I want Joe to be able to step in.
BORELLI: I'll be quick. I'll be quick. SIDNER: There is a question about what other president has done so much of this, putting their name while in office on a myriad of things.
BORELLI: You could have walked anywhere in New York 10 years ago and knew that Trump likes to put his name on things.
But I'm just pointing out. Like, you are really mad about this, and I get that. I just think --
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: I'm not mad. I just don't want it to be dismissed. Hold on, one second.
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: I just think America is so sick of Democrats going (INAUDIBLE) over names and statues and this.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: I am not mad and I'm not a Democrat. So, if you are going to have these things, say it correct.
BORELLI: We got to take down Columbus, we got to take down Jefferson, we got to remove this.
CHAMPION: It's not about me, for statues. That's not what I'm saying.
BORELLI: Whose name is on the fort? I think Americans are just getting sick of the left, just being against everything. If this -- if Joe Biden, you know, if he -- if he maybe passed away in office and they renamed the Kennedy Center in honor of Joe Biden, you wouldn't have heard boo out of the people. You wouldn't have heard boo out of the Kennedys. It -- this is an episode of two things. It's an episode of people angry over anything Trumps does, and then, people angry because we're naming something after someone who other people find imperfect.
MECURIO: Can I -- can I just suggest something. There is a nuance, OK?
And what we are doing here is sort of, we are not keeping our eye on the ball. This isn't about what other people did to other buildings, and this isn't about whether seats are sticky or not. OK? I find that to be OK.
This, and again, this is coming from a guy who's not in a party. OK?
LYMAN: OK.
MECURIO: What this is about is a guy who lost his life for his country. Leave it alone. Put it on another building. Stop giving me a shiny object to look out over here, when you are doing this over here with your hand, and that's what you are doing, you start going, the liberals are so upset about putting their name.
We are not talking about that.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: At all.
MECURIO: Let's really just stay on it, and let's not put everybody -- I don't do that to you as a Republican. Honestly, all you Republicans are blank, so, have some respect for those people --
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: But you have to --
(CROSSTALK)
MECURIO: Hang on one second. I'll let you finish. But all I'm saying is that that's the issue. It's not just any president, it's a guy who got assassinated, and that's what makes it disrespectful.
LYMAN: But --
(CROSSTALK)
SIDNER: And let me just add in about names. When statues like Robert E. Lee were being taken down, there was a huge uproar from folks in Charlottesville, and they were pissed about these statues being taken out. So, don't say that one side cares about names and the other side doesn't care about names,
CHAMPION: Wait. It's not about names. But that's a whole point.
LYMAN: Can I -- can I respond? Can I --
BORELLI: -- people were hearing some damage --
LYMAN: Can I respond really quickly?
Paul, first, to your point about Kennedy, and I think Kennedy should be obviously respected. He did lose his life serving this country. But I did not hear and I'm not blaming you, but from the Democrat side of the aisle.
[07:25:00]
I did not hear the same ferocious defense when Jefferson and Washington were being torn down.
Trump is not removing Kennedy off the building. And to my earlier point, you can think sticky seats are not a big deal. But if something is going to honor Kennedy, it should exude excellence, and it was not for quite a long time.
(CROSSTALK)
MECURIO: And that's a valid point.
LYMAN: Wait, wait. Paul, one second.
MECURIO: Yes.
LYMAN: And then, Cari, to your earlier point, and I think someone else mentioned this. We are talking about Donald Trump with the walk of fame. Someone brought that up with the plaques and all that good stuff.
SIDNER: Yes. Hold on for that in second.
LYMAN: Let me just say, really quickly, a president put up plaques, and people are pretending like this is the end of the world, or not presidential. You know what wasn't presidential? Sabotaging the incoming administration and illegally spying on them, Obama. Throwing your political opponents like Peter Navarro and Steve Bannon in jail.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: January 6th, Rob Reiner statements.
LYMAN: Trying to throw Donald Trump in jail.
CHAMPION: Stealing money while being in office. Taking down the East Wing of the White --
LYMAN: Putting pro-life in jail.
(CROSSTALK)
MECURIO: This is a shiny object moment.
LYMAN: This is not a shiny object.
MECURIO: It is. You just -- you are moving your arm.
CHAMPION: The old building of ballroom. All the things.
LYMAN: You guys -- you guys feign outrage over the silliest little things. No one big things happen, you are like --
CHAMPION: It's not outrage. It's not outrage.
(CROSSTALK)
MECURIO: No. This is what Americans don't want to hear. They just want you to answer the question straight up, instead of going --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: And I did.
MECURIO: What about this and what about that?
LYMAN: I did. And I'm pointing out the hypocrisy.
MECURIO: Thomas Jefferson -- Thomas Jefferson had a very different history in John F. Kennedy. And last I checked, we did -- last I checked, he didn't lose his life in battle potentially.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: But he put his life on the line.
MECURIO: But he didn't lose his life the way JFK did. And is a difference.
LYMAN: He put his life on the line, a sacred honor.
MECURIO: There is a -- and it is not a distinction without a difference. There is a difference.
LYMAN: Yes, you're right. Thomas Jefferson is, of course, put on a different stature for obvious reasons.
MECURIO: He lost his life differently.
LYMAN: Of course, he lost his life --
(CROSSTALK)
SIDNER: All right. We are going to leave this here. Let's go to our next subject. J.D. Vance saying that DEI is just discrimination against white men. So, he is telling them, hey, you should sue. We'll debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:31:09]
SIDNER: The Trump administration is escalating its war on DEI.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUCAS: Are you a white male whose experienced discrimination at work based on your race or sex? You may have a claim to recover money under federal civil rights laws. The EOC is committed to identifying, attacking and eliminating all forms of race and sex discrimination, including against white male applicants and employees.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: That was the chair of the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. And J.D. Vance is co-signing that call by reposting her message, but took many steps further by claiming the DEI isn't just, "lame diversity seminars or racial slogans. It was a deliberate program of discrimination, primarily," he said, "against white men."
Cari, I'm going to start with you.
When you -- when you see this, and you -- and you look at the statistics, and you look at the numbers, how do you square these things?
CHAMPION: You know, I think this has been a movement for some time. I think back to probably 20 -- probably forever, but I'm going to say probably 2013-2014, I was working with someone who said to me, it was a male colleague of mine, white male colleague of mine, and he was feeling very uncomfortable with the state of the world. He was suggesting that he wasn't able to get anything done, because he was a white male, and the world was essentially against him. And everything made it seem like, guess what? We have to hire minorities, we have to hire women, we have to hire marginalized people.
And in his mind, everything was so politically correct. It was the H.R. of it all, the human resources of it all. And he was really upset about this. And I understood where he was coming from, but I couldn't relate, because I lived in a world, and I'm speaking from my own experiences where it felt like, well, about time.
So, what this is, in my opinion, is purely subjective. But in a world that we live in where we are saying this country, and you talked about our founding fathers earlier in air quotes, this country has always made it easier, in my opinion, from my experiences, to celebrate white men.
And they have always been the bosses, and they have always from the top.
You look at the people who have the money, the billionaires, you look at a list. They don't look like me or you. They look like white men. And so, for this to be an issue, a movement, it is as if these white men are being marginalized, feels very disingenuous, and the fact that J.D. Vance is amplifying it is also disingenuous, in my opinion.
BORELLI: But two things can be true.
CHAMPION: You know what? They can be true.
BORELLI: But you are -- you are -- correct.
CHAMPION: Knew they can be. Three thing, three things can be true.
BORELLI: You -- we look back at the history of different institutions, private sector, public sector, and point, and say, this was overwhelmingly dominated by white men. But the statistics don't lie. But the statistics that came out recently about some hiring practices at some major institutions, specifically, media, that article in compact magazine that came out this week really does highlight some shocking numbers.
If a -- you know, a news agency is touting their diversity and touting the fact that they are hiring say, people of color, and 80 percent of the people are people of color, that is discriminatory, in the same way that it was discriminatory --
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: To hire only white men.
BORELLI: To hire only white men. And I think those things could be true. And to acknowledge that this is actually happening, I think is an important step, because it does show perhaps, that we've moved somewhat behind -- beyond some sort of post racial view of how things should be.
SIDNER: But let me just throw in a couple of statistics. Because I went to look this up, because I was actually curious to see what happened, because there was a very large jump in black women's unemployment at seven percent. White men's unemployment is about three percent. Black men's unemployment is at 7.5 percent.
So, when you -- when you look at all this, and you start talking about discrimination, yes, there are some examples, I think that, one of which you just pointed out. But you can't cherry pick when you look overarching at what's happening actually in the world.
CHAMPION: Real time.
SIDNER: -- the world of work.
Paul, how do you -- how do you see this? What do you think this is -- this is about? Is this about messaging or what is -- what is happening?
[07:35:05]
MECURIO: I think, it's sometimes we fall into all or nothing. The DEI go too far at times, probably. Sometimes. I think what happens, especially with political darkness is the pendulum goes all the way over here.
CHAMPION: Sure, over correct.
MECURIO: You just got to get back in the middle.
CHAMPION: Sure.
MECURIO: Just get it in the middle. Did some white men get screwed over because of DEI? Probably. Did everybody to the point where you do -- that was like a shyster personal injury law firm commercial. Wasn't it? Your steering wheel may be a ticking time bomb.
CHAMPION: And if you feel like you've been treated poorly, yes.
(CROSSTALK)
MECURIO: And if you been -- right. Right, exactly.
So, this isn't correcting systemic inequity. It's treating discrimination as symmetrical, and it's not. Because what you are doing is you are ignoring the imbalance of power that led to the civil rights legislation.
And so, do I think that some white men have unfairly been treated as a result of DEI? Yes. Life is kind of sloppy that way, it's not perfect.
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: But you are acknowledging that --
(CROSSTALK)
MECURIO: But I don't think you'll go so far as I tell everybody to start suing the government and start suing your work.
BORELLI: Why should --
MECURIO: Somewhere in the middle.
BORELLI: Wait, hold up. Why shouldn't a white person who has been discriminated which you just admitted, is real, and that's happened. Why wouldn't a white person who has been discriminated and can prove a case, or at least can bring a case, why wouldn't they be able to sue for that?
MECURIO: Because I think the federal government, in that kind of announcement is emboldening people that maybe don't have a claim but is feel, the government is telling me to do it, I'm going to go do it.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: But then they lose.
BORELLI: Yes, lose.
MECURIO: That's why.
LYMAN: So, I --
(CROSSTALK)
SIDNER: Maybe the bigger question is, why is the vice president putting this out there, telling people to sue?
BORELLI: Correct.
MECURIO: Yes.
SIDNER: That's the question.
LYMAN: Because discrimination is bad no matter who it is against. And do we all agree that discrimination on the basis of race or sex is bad? Can we all say yes?
SIDNER: Yes, of course.
LYMAN: Cari, can you say yes to that?
SIDNER: But --
LYMAN: You don't? Well, the reason I asked that question --
SIDNER: But, I mean, because there is a big question here. There is an entire community that feels discriminated against by the president.
LYMAN: Yes, white men.
SIDNER: The Somali community feels discriminated against by the president. He called them garbage.
LYMAN: White American, white -- Joe Biden called us garbage.
White American men are being discriminated on the basis of their race and gender. And I would feel awful.
(CROSSTALK)
SIDNER: Wait, what numbers do you have --
LYMAN: Hold on.
SIDNER: That this is systemic issue. This is a big bubble.
LYMAN: I don't care if it was a one-off issue, nobody should be discriminated against because of their race or their sex. Second of all, the compact article you mentioned, he does a very detailed job, building upon years of other evidence. The other thing we have to discuss here, I am a female. I would feel awful if I got a role over a black male just because I'm a female, because I had a different, you know, quota or target.
It should always be based on meritocracy, on competency. I want whoever is most qualified for the job. And disparate incomes or outcomes. Disparate outcomes is not indicative that it was the result of racism.
So, we have to stop pretending like that is the, you know, oh, well, if you know, blacks have a slightly higher unemployment rate or, you know, slightly lower. That's OK.
(CROSSTALK)
SIDNER: No, it's double. It's not slight. It is -- it is real.
CHAMPION: It's a real thing.
SIDNER: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: And my point is it doesn't matter what -- it doesn't matter what it is.
SIDNER: Let's push pause on this, and we will continue this conversation in just a second.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:42:44]
SIDNER: All right. we were just having a very spirited conversation about DEI in the workplace. We are going to pick that right back up. CHAMPION: Why this is even a discussion on why we feel like J.D. Vance feels like he has to over correct what was wrong was because there was a problem in this country for many years. That's why DEI -- OK, let's just go back to the --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: So, discriminating against other people is a remedy for discrimination?
CHAMPION: Let's go back to the initial reason why we had it. It was because this was a problem in the country, as you so eloquently pointed out earlier, is that, yes, there is a bit of over correction. People do over correct. But this was a problem in our country. It had to be addressed. That's why these policies were put in place. This is not something that we're pulling out of the air and saying, discriminate against white people, discriminate against white men. Discriminate --
LYMAN: So, you don't want any discrimination against white men.
There are people who are in roles, who are in the roles because they happen to check a few extra quota boxes, even though they may not have been the most competent person.
And what I'm sitting here saying that some people at this table can answer, do we all agree that no one, black, white, Chinese, whatever you are, should be discriminated against because of your gender or sex? Or race?
(CROSSTALK)
MECURIO: We agree with that. What you are --
BORELLI: Of course.
MECURIO: What you are advocating is -- what you are advocating is a zero-thumb game.
LYMAN: Right. But you can't correct the measure of discrimination by discriminating more.
BORELLI: In treating -- in treating the law, and treating the court system, as --
(CROSSTALK)
MECURIO: The question I have -- you ask me a question. I don't question you. Sure, go ahead.
BORELLI: If we all acknowledge that DEI policies exist which give preferential treatment to people of color, women, what actually does? Like, how does it work? Tell me, what do they do to get the numbers up in institutions, if not discriminate against people from one race or gender versus -- what are they going to do. Need help?
(CROSSTALK)
MECURIO: Well, that's all you want to couch it. You can use the word -- you can use the word discriminate or you could use the word that there is an inherent, entrenched sort of system that is not working for the minority. Just trying to be --
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: Someone --
MECURIO: Hang on a second. I'm answering your question.
BORELLI: Yes.
MECURIO: It's trying to be corrected.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: By discriminating.
MECURIO: Hang on a second. No, it's not. If -- that's what this is right. You can call it discrimination. Somebody else could call it something else. And so --
BORELLI: The courts going to figure out what they do.
MECURIO: So, what -- so, the point is that when you use this as like a blind scale, instead of a corrective measure to correct the fact that there is been systemic racism or misogyny, or whatever you want to call it. And if it, has it gone too far? Yes, have someone.
(CROSSTALK)
BORELLI: But what corrective measure is there -- discriminating against a race or gender?
MECURIO: Hang on a second. Has it gone too far? DEI has gone too far at times.
BORELLI: As a white male, I'll say that.
MECURIO: The question. What corrective measure, your words, exists that doesn't give preferential treatment over specific races and genders, sir?
[07:45:01]
SIDNER: I think one of the one way to ask this question, if you have two people who are have the exact same credentials, which is a little odd, but exactly the same credentials, one is black. One is a black woman, one is a white man, historically. Who gets that job?
BORELLI: I have no idea.
CHAMPION: Oh, stop!
SIDNER: Historically, who?
MECURIO: Come on.
CHAMPION: Stop!
SIDNER: Come on.
BORELLI: I had no idea.
SIDNER: Historically.
BORELLI: OK.
SIDNER: Historically, who gets that job?
BORELLI: Let's say historically, white man. Who gets it today? Who gets it today?
SIDNER: If you look at the numbers.
BORELLI: Who gets it today?
SIDNER: it's still --
BORELLI: Nope, not according to the Atlantic, the San Diego Tribune, NPR, all the people that were cited by compact mag as doing this. You don't want to say it, but it's true. The DEI --
(CROSSTALK)
SIDNER: But you only (INAUDIBLE) numbers.
BORELLI: -- corporate web site. Wait, we can't pretend this doesn't happen.
SIDNER: What could be on point of numbers?
BORELLI: You go to a corporate web site and they announce how many people they have hired, you know, people of color and women? and then, we are going to pretend like it doesn't exist. In the opposite way you are framing it as happening in the past.
CHAMPION: But this isn't a fair conversation.
BORELLI: It doesn't -- it doesn't happen.
CHAMPION: I don't think this is a fair conversation, Sara, and I'll say this.
If we are going to sit at this table and have an honest conversation about what the history of this country is, and how, in fact, they employ people and who runs the power structure, we will say that it's a white man.
And for you to sit here and say, well, how do you do the corrective measures and everything he says, and you're challenging him, and you're saying, we won't all agree. We can't all agree. The reason why I didn't answer your question was because it was a silly question because --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Wait, you don't think equal people is going to be discriminated against. That's silly?
CHAMPION: I was saying, a reason why I didn't answer your question because it was a silly question. Because we know how this country has been run, and we know who has the power structure, we know who has the money, and I won't answer your question.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: That didn't answer the question.
BORELLI: She never said that white men. She never said white men (INAUDIBLE).
LYMAN: She would not answer the question.
BORELLI: She never said that.
LYMAN: She would not answer the question.
CHAMPION: Reality is this conversation is disingenuous. It's not real, and it's not honest, and you guys are not being honest about the structure of how this country works, and about what has happened with people who are minorities, with black people, with white people, with Asian people.
You can say whatever you want to you had a word salad this entire conversation.
BORELLI: No word salad.
CHAMPION: All we are simply saying is DEI was put in place because it was a reason to correct what was wrong.
BORELLI: No word salad.
SIDNER: We got --
LYMAN: Because all three that meritocracy is important, people who are most qualified should get the job.
MECURIO: That doesn't -- that way at all.
SIDNER: And that is not reality in this world.
LYMAN: That should be reality.
CHAMPION: But is not.
SIDNER: But it isn't reality. LYMAN: But it should be, because of DEI, it's not.
SIDNER: But it's not.
CHAMPION: But because of DEI?
LYMAN: Because of DEI, it can't be.
SIDNER: But it's not. It's not because of DEI. It's not.
But let's move on. Next, the panel's unpopular opinions. What they are not afraid to say out loud.
But first, a programming note. Roy Wood Jr. hosts a holiday special for the whole family with music from the United States Air Force band and Jesse James Decker, comedy from Roy Craig Robinson and much, much more. "ROY WOOD JR.'S VERY, VERY, VERY MERRY HOLIDAY" special tonight at 8:00 p.m. on CNN, and streaming on the CNN app.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:52:17]
SIDNER: All right. We are back, and it's time for your unpopular opinions. You each have 30 seconds to tell us yours. Paul, you are on the hot seat.
MECURIO: OK, this is my camera.
OK, America, here it goes. It's the holidays. I'm not one of these people that says you don't have to get me anything. I just care about our love and our relationship. I want gifts. I want tickets. Good gifts.
CHAMPION: That's actually good.
MECURIO: OK. I have a relative. I won't say who she is. She knows who she is.
SIDNER: Wow.
MECURIO: And every Christmas, you know what she gives me? A $2 lottery ticket. A $2 lottery ticket. Nothing says I care about you, less than a one in 400 billion chance of getting a gift.
And she puts it in a greeting card that was $8. The card was four times the price of the gift.
So, America and the guy that owns Best Buy. I want an iPad. A 14,000- gig iPad, and a 55-inch screen T.V.
CHAMPION: You got it.
SIDNER: All right. We know what Santa will bring you, perhaps. Brianna. LYMAN: I'm going to take, I think, which is actually a popular opinion. Die Hard is not a Christmas movie. Christmas is supposed to be a time of magical, whimsical joy, and togetherness and family. And the only thing Die Hard has going for it is that it takes place on Christmas Eve. There is some Christmas decor, and like at the end of it, he reunites with his wife and kids. But that doesn't scream Santa is coming to town for me.
SIDNER: People die on that hill, by the way, no fun intended.
LYMAN: Yes, yes.
CHAMPION: I know, I'm saying we have that debate every year. This is time of year.
SIDNER: You know, every year. Cari?
CHAMPION: My unpopular opinion is that, and believe it or not, and I've been watching her very carefully, and I feel like I'm right on this. Kim Kardashian is running for office. And I don't know what office she is running for, but she is running for office. And the reality is, as I'm watching her as she tries to pass her bar exam, sadly, she did not. She cannot be an attorney as you are, maybe perhaps, eventually.
But she is been really quiet. She is been doing a lot of projects. She does a lot of things for the community, but I could see her starting out locally, doing something in Calabasas, maybe she decides to run for the board. That's how you start as a community organizer, and then, you build your way up.
And believe it or not, she would be the first person to run for office who was a reality one star.
SIDNER: All right. We can -- we can --
BORELLI: No, no, no. Sean Duffy --
SIDNER: What you are pointing down? What you are pointing down?
BORELLI: Secretary of Transportation Sean Duffy with --
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Arnold, Schwarzenegger.
BORELLI: What was that show?
MECURIO: Oh, I didn't know that.
CHAMPION: Or "The Apprentice" or the list goes on and on.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: The bottom-line. BORELLI: OK. You are -- you are in your mid to late 50s, and you are wearing a suit, and you decide, how can I look young and hip? And you decide, I want to wear sneakers with my suit. You look -- you look like a jerk. No one's buying your young --
SIDNER: Oh, we are going to fight.
CHAMPION: Oh, no, I just --
SIDNER: That's so unpopular.
BORELLI: No one is buying you young and hip. You got the comb over. Maybe you got the mom jeans looking at you. Andrew Cuomo. And you are trying to -- you are trying to be hit with your sneak like, dude, you're an old man. Wear a proper pair of shoes with your suit. Be a grown up. Be a grown up.
SIDNER: That is perhaps the most unpopular opinion.
CHAMPION: So unpopular.
Do you get with me? All right. I love sneakers, since I was wearing shoes too. Those are going to -- shoes too.
(CROSSTALK)
LYMAN: Yes, what does you wearing?
CHAMPION: Bill closest sleeks.
MECURIO: Yes. That's close. That's close. I like your dentist shoes, because it's sensible when you are working on people's teeth.
BORELLI: I've got my -- listen, you're at that age. I checked your shoes.
MECURIO: No, these are buckles. These are high class, like a 39-99.
SIDNER: Those are proper shoes. That was an expensive gift.
Thank you, everybody at the table, and thank you.
MECURIO: That is a shot on my shoe. My shoes in national T.V.
LYMAN: It's a big time.
BORELLI: Someone who control and take shot.
MECURIO: Thank, God, I -- thank God I wore socks with no holes.
SIDNER: CNN's coverage continues right now.
MECURIO: I want good gifts. Everybody.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
