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CNN Live Event/Special
CNN Saturday Morning Table for Five. President Trump Criticizes Pope Leo XIV for His Comments on War and Peace; Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth Uses Lines from Movie "Pulp Fiction" as Prayer During Military Gathering; Former Trump Supporters Now Criticize President for Iran War and Religiously Offensive Posts; New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani Announces Pied-a-Terre Tax on Expensive Residential Properties for Residents Not Living in City; Some Claim "DoorDash Grandma" Photo- Op with President Trump Backfired Politically; Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas Criticizes Progressivism in College Lecture. Aired 10- 11a ET
Aired April 18, 2026 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:00:00]
MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN ANCHOR: -- the White House, and what the president talking about? He was talking about signing an Executive Order for a psychedelic to be used to treat PTSD. And while he was being briefed on that, his cabinet and health officials around him were explaining to him, based on data, the mental health crisis faced in the United States. And I agree with them. So I think that's the explanation.
If you missed any of today's program, you can also listen wherever you get your podcasts. We thank you for watching, and we'll see you next week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Today, the church, the state, and the war.
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: I'm all about the Gospel.
SIDNER: A holy war of words erupts as the administration uses religion as a shield against critics.
Plus --
MEGYN KELLY, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: Enough. OK, it's enough with this nonsense.
SIDNER: As more MAGA voters turn on the president.
S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: -- you and your buyer's remorse, no one cares what you have to say anymore. We told you so.
SIDNER: How should Democrats treat them?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that we should give them credit for that. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The message has to be welcome aboard.
SIDNER: Also, a DoorDash driver delivers McD's to the White House.
TRUMP: To be honest, it was a little tacky.
SIDNER: But did the stunt backfire?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't we want to live in a country where grandmas don't have to work DoorDash?
SIDNER: And a supreme dis.
JUSTICE CLARENCE THOMAS, U.S. SUPREME COURT: Progressivism seeks to replace the basic premises of the Declaration of Independence.
SIDNER: In rare remarks, Clarence Thomas takes aim at the nation's, quote, "intellectuals."
here in studio, John Avlon, S.E. Cupp, Joe Borelli, and Josh Rogin.
It's the weekend. Join the conversation at "TABLE FOR FIVE".
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Hey there. I'm Sara Sidner in New York.
America has a come to Jesus moment of sorts, but in politics. After a week of surreal events involving the Trump administration using religion to hit back at scrutiny of its war with Iran. The president deleted a picture depicting himself as Jesus after a bipartisan backlash.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: I thought it was me as a doctor and had to do with Red Cross as a Red Cross. It's supposed to be me as a doctor making people better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: He posted another picture, this time of the two hugging. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth likened Trump to Jesus, calling reporters the enemies of Christ.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: As the passage ends, the pharisees went out and immediately held counsel against him, how to destroy him. I sat there in church and I thought, our press are just like these pharisees.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Hegseth wasn't the only one who compared Trump to Christ.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. TROY NEHLS, (R-TX): I believe that Donald Trump is better than sliced bread. I think he's almost the second coming in my humble opinion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: And in a twist, a Hollywood script entered the chat when Hegseth used a classic Tarantino movie quote during a prayer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, WAR SECRETARY: We often look somewhere else and look at trials through the wrong lens. And Jesus understands what kind of recipe we need for his purpose, which leads me finally to a prayer that I'll read, which was also handed to me a couple of days ago, delivered from the lead mission planner of Sandy Ine. They call it CSR 2517, which I think is meant to reflect Ezekiel 2517. So the prayer is CSR 2517, and it reads, and pray with me, please, "The path of the downed aviator is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of camaraderie and duty, shepherd the lost through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to capture and destroy my brother. And you will know my call sign is Sandy One when I lay my vengeance upon thee." And Amen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: The Pentagon says Hegseth used a quote given to him by pilots involved in the rescue of the airmen in Iran.
This was just the backdrop to a holy war of words between the Vatican and the United States. The president picked fights with the Pope after Leo called for peace and an end to the violence, and warned about tyrants using religion for military gain. Trump's allies then began to lecture the Vatican.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, (R) VICE PRESIDENT: I think it's very, very important for the Pope to be careful when he talks about matters of theology. You've got to make sure it's anchored in the truth.
REP. TROY NEHLS, (R-TX): The Pope needs to keep his business into leading his flock, so to speak, leading the church, and probably stay out of the political arena.
REP. MIKE JOHNSON, (R-LA) HOUSE SPEAKER: A pontiff or any religious leader can say anything they want.
[10:05:02]
But obviously, if you wade into political waters, I think you should expect some political response. And I think the Pope has received some of that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: So at this point, suddenly Republicans don't want religion in politics.
Now to our table. What's with the holy war? I guess first to you, Joe.
JOE BORELLI, FORMER REPUBLICAN LEADER, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: Well, look, going to the Pope, I think Speaker Johnson's comments were probably the best. If the Pope is going to use his office and his place as not just a religious head but as a head of state to engage in politics, you should expect some incoming back.
And I'm actually, you know, I think back to Pope Pius VII in World War II who gets criticized for not speaking up against Nazi atrocities, the genocide against Jews. And I am wondering why the Pope doesn't make more, stronger statements against what's happening within Iran, within the regime, the behavior that they've exemplified over the last 40 years.
You know, look, I'm not saying, you know, the situations are the same, but it is weird to have a Pope only taking the side of Iran and not criticizing them for their atrocities.
SIDNER: I don't -- it probably is not fair to say he's taking the side of Iran. He is quoting scripture --
S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Takes the side of Iran.
BORELLI: If you're taking one side --
SIDNER: He is quoting scripture and he's talking about peace.
BORELLI: Trump's mic drop moment was when he was asked about four protesters Iran is going to plan to kill over the next day or two. And he said, ask the Pope. And he's right. The Pope has not weighed in on that. So to have the Pope weigh in -- look, there is a long Catholic tradition of Popes weighing in on politics. We expect the Pope to weigh in on peace, to support peace. I expect the Pope even to weigh in on the migrant crisis and things like that.
But you have a war that's prosecuted against the number one state sponsor of terrorism, a state that uses its proxies to murder innocent civilians everywhere, a state that has murdered, by conservative estimates, 30,000 people within the last year. Maybe save the outrage for them, your eminence.
JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: So render under Caesar, right? I mean, this is the ultimate underlying point. All of a sudden, we see the Trump administration trying to misuse faith for political purposes almost every day, including the posts of the president comparing himself to Jesus. And yet when the Pope actually talks about New Testament values of promoting peace against a preemptive war, which is not a condoning what executions in Iran at all, then all of a sudden he's on the wrong side of the politics. And so he gets demonized and they basically say, shut up and dribble.
BORELLI: Do you think Iran's not responsible for proxy wars that have been existing for 40 years?
AVLON: Of course they do. But that's like literally nothing to do with the larger point.
BORELLI: Nothing to do?
AVLON: Literally nothing.
BORELLI: Nothing?
AVLON: Literally nothing to do with it.
BORELLI: That's a stretch, John.
AVLON: No joke. Look, here's why. When you get Pete Hegseth, who misquotes the Bible by quoting from a fake verse, pious and bringing religion into the Pentagon every day, quoting something from "Pulp Fiction," it's a perfect encapsulation of the problem. They're trying to weaponize faith. They're trying to weaponize faith and fundamentally misunderstand it. And that's the endemic problem.
S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Trump doesn't understand religion or Christianity. He has no fluency with it. It's not a second, third, fourth language. He doesn't know it at all.
And what he didn't get was that Catholics are very different from evangelicals, and Catholics only voted for Trump by 50 percent in 2016, 55 percent in 2024. And Catholics' read on the Bible is very different from an evangelical worldview. In evangelicalism, you've got prosperity theology, you've got preachers who say give me millions of your dollars so that I can live in a big mansion. Catholics eschew that. And so to see Trump and Hegseth interpret -- and J.D. Vance's interpretation of the Bible and Jesus and scripture being so, um, sacrilegious, turns off Catholics in a way it does not necessarily turn off evangelicals. And to lose a Catholic base when he's already losing among independents, among young people, among men, among Hispanics, he just can't afford it.
SIDNER: Go ahead.
JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Call me old fashioned. I harken back to a time where we talked about the separation of church and state. I don't want our -- it's in the Constitution, by the way. I don't want our leaders promoting any religion. I'm not a Christian, but I don't think my religion is better than any other religion. I don't think Christianity is better than any other religion. The military, by the way, has people of all religions, Muslims, by the way, which the president insulted horrendously just a week ago.
And just think about our opponents, the Iranians. That's a theocracy. That's what we're against. We're for pluralism. We're for democracy. We're for people having whatever religion they want, but not making it part of our military or our government, because that's not what America is.
SIDNER: Because we were talking about support and what's going on, I want you to listen to what were hearing from, from some folks who were big Trump supporters. Take a listen. And you mentioned Benny Johnson. He happens to be in this as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGYN KELLY, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: It's completely inappropriate and he knows it. I don't know why the president is getting so desperate for attention that he feels the need to mock 1.4 billion Catholics. It's enough. OK. It's enough with this nonsense.
BENNY JOHNSON, HOST, "THE BENNY SHOW:: I'm also offended when anyone projects themselves as Christ.
BLAKE NEFF, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: We should not have a president who gleefully blasphemes the faith of by far the vast majority of his supporters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Joe, do you think this was a mistake? Just a big, ugly mistake.
BORELLI: I think the president thought it was a mistake, and certainly I do. He took it down. That was the right thing to do.
CUPP: But then he lied about it.
BORELLI: Look, look, you know, last week the gospel was about Doubting Thomas. And Doubting Thomas is the guy who had to, you know, see it to believe it. You said that Catholics were abandoning Donald Trump. I was at a Catholic gala.
CUPP: No, didn't.
BORELLI: You literally said Catholics were abandoning him.
CUPP: No, I didn't.
BORELLI: We could run the tape. You said Catholics are abandoning Donald Trump, not in the same way evangelicals are.
CUPP: No, I said Catholics are more offended than evangelicals are, for sure.
BORELLI: I was a Catholic gala last night. I go to church. My kids play in Catholic leagues. I don't know one Catholic who was a Trump supporter, I'm not saying there aren't, but who was a Trump supporter who was that offended about the picture --
CUPP: You just saw a bunch of them on screen.
BORELLI: -- that offended -- I'm saying Catholics.
CUPP: They're Catholic.
BORELLI: What Trump has done vis-a-vis Iran with respect to what the Pope's criticism was and is now not supporting the president. I don't know one. I do not know one.
(CROSS TALK)
CUPP: We just played some.
AVLON: You're taking the -- they would rather take Donald Trump, the president, over the Pope, the leader.
ROGIN: The Pope polls way better than Donald Trump.
BORELLI: I think the Pope was wrong for criticizing America without criticizing the Iranian regime. I think --
AVLON: Isn't that just about --
BORELLI: But we think we think the Pope speaks at es cathedra and is infallible on very certain matters. The Pope can be wrong about a lot of things. This happens to be one of them.
SIDNER: But he is talking about peace, and that could be to everyone, right? I mean, when you say peace could be --
BORELLI: He criticized tyrants dropping bombs. That was a --
CUPP: He said God doesn't bless conflict, period. He didn't say, God doesn't bless us, conflict or God doesn't bless Iran. He said, God doesn't bless conflict. There is nothing more anodyne than what the Pope said about war and peace.
BORELLI: Saint Augustine has a just war theory, which war is just. This is Catholic tradition.
ROGIN: And the Iran war doesn't apply.
BORELLI: Did the Pope did the Pope cite establish Catholic dogma on the just war theory by a prominent -- he didn't.
CUPP: You're questioning the Pope's citing?
BORELLI: Yes, I am, actually. You're allowed to. You're allowed to do that.
AVLON: Yes. Well, look, and so did J.D. Vance. And look, I'm all about just war theory, but somehow I think the objection isn't about misapplication of just war theory and more about criticizing a preemptive war.
BORELLI: By the way, this was the conversation at Saint Agnes Church after mass this week in Naples, Florida. Just for the record, we were talking about this.
CUPP: You were talking about this? BORELLI: With other people, yes.
ROGIN: Well, God, if she does exist, I don't think supports war in any form.
CUPP: I love the parable when the secretary of war goes out, cheats on his wives, gets wasted, and then quotes "Pulp Fiction." That's my favorite parable from the New Testament.
SIDNER: And we will end this part of the show there.
(LAUGHTER)
SIDNER: Next, more and more MAGA Republicans are showing some buyer's remorse. So how should Democrats react to this?
Plus, did the president's DoorDash stunt backfire by showing how bad some Americans have it? We'll discuss all that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SIDNER: Welcome back. It's no secret many in MAGA aren't too thrilled with Donald Trump for some portions of the things he's been doing now, from the Epstein files to the economy, and now the war they say he promised to never start. Many of the loudest people who helped get him elected are starting to say they have buyer's remorse. Our friend S.E. had this to say to many of them after the president's threat to wipe out a civilization.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You and your buyer's remorse. Who would listen to you now? Who would listen to you? You got us here. You voted for him. You told everyone they have to vote for him, right? It's going to be World War III if you don't vote for him. Give me a break. No one cares what you have to say anymore. We told you so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: But some, particularly on the Democratic side of the aisle, are opening their arms.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ILHAN OMAR, (D-MN): The thing that has been very fascinating, especially about Marjorie and Candace, is that they are not just coming out like, uh, the other ones that you'd mentioned where they're saying this action is wrong, right? They're saying, I am done with you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. It's like a values bait. Like this guy is bad. Not like this policy is bad.
OMAR: Right. Yes, right. And, and I think that we should give them credit for that. PETE BUTTIGIEG, FORMER TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: The message cannot
be I told you so. The message has to be welcome aboard. What else can we do together?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: S.E., you are by no means a MAGA defector. You were, you were never in --
CUPP: Early and often, early and often to never Trump.
SIDNER: Early and often. You screamed no. No to what?
CUPP: I have been out in these streets too long, Sara.
SIDNER: In these streets.
CUPP: I have been out in these streets since 2015 opposing this un- American, anti-democratic, fascistic garbage. And while at the same time, these people that they're mentioning, the Marjorie Taylor Greenes, name them, the long list have been defending it for fun, for money, for clicks, for fame.
There is -- not all converts are created equal. And we should not, we -- it's not just for Democrats to decide. It's for never-Trumpers who are conservative as well, to decide we should not be aligning with people who are losers, liars, and grifters, who have only come to see the light because either it's politically expedient or it's profitable or whatever.
[10:20:05]
Now, I say to voters who have lost their appetite for Trump, absolutely. Congratulations. I'm sorry he disappointed you. I know exactly how he did, by promising you things he's completely ignored. I get you. Come on over. The water is warm.
But for the professional liars, losers, and grifters, no, we don't want you. And just because you've come to where we have been for 10 years, doesn't mean you get to use us to launder your reputations. Not happening on my watch. And I don't like this conversation where it's like, well, shouldn't we give them credit? No, no, no credit, no credit. It's the 11th hour. It's the 11th hour of this. He is a lame duck. He is gone in two years. What took you so long? I'm sorry. Somebody stop me or I will just --
ROGIN: Just how do you really feel.
SIDNER: Exactly.
CUPP: This is personal. I've gotten death threats. I have lived this life at the expense of profession, at the expense of friendships, at the expense of money. I've done it. It's been hard, but it's my conscience telling me to do it. You don't get to flip a switch and say I don't like him anymore. Can I be with you guys? No. SIDNER: Do you see who she's talking about who are constantly out
there and were very supportive, and now they turn on some things, not all things, but they turn on some things very differently than you see, for example, a Liz Cheney or someone in that camp who --
AVLON: Fundamentally different.
SIDNER: Yes.
AVLON: Fundamentally different.
SIDNER: Should the Democrats open their arms? I mean, Liz Cheney is very conservative.
AVLON: Absolutely. No, no, no, no. What I think S.E. is reacting to righteously is a deep frustration at the folks who enabled this. And then all of a sudden are trying to say, you know, wash their hands for me. Who could have known that it would turn into this? Anybody. After January 6th, anybody could have known this if they chose to pay attention to what he'd said and what he'd done during the first term, particularly if they were self-described conservatives.
SIDNER: Joe?
AVLON: Hold on. But a successful pro-democracy movement -- look at what just happened in Hungary. Look at the study of successful pro- democracy movements. They've got to be positive, patriotic, and inclusive, positive, patriotic, and inclusive. So it's good to castigate the corruption and the rising costs and the cronyism and the chaos and cruelty, all of that. But you got to welcome people in and set a big tent message. And so there shouldn't be purity tests in a pro-democracy movement.
CUPP: For voters.
AVLON: For voters.
CUPP: Marjorie Taylor Greene like five minutes ago was still saying that the insurrectionists were patriots, are patriots. These are people who would still vote for Trump if they were in his favor. I'm sorry. We need to be skeptical of the folks who are claiming us in their name. I'm not talking about voters. You're right.
ROGIN: I come at this from a foreign policy perspective. You know, again, 10 years of following Trump. Everyone thinks they know what his foreign policy doctrine is, right? Oh, he campaigned against intervention. He campaigned, he's going to be tough on China. Now he campaigned, he's going to a deal with China. No more wars, no more globalism.
And, sooner or later, everyone figures out that Donald Trump has no core foreign policy principles whatsoever. And they change all the time based on whoever he talked to last. Maybe he has a financial interest. Maybe his kids have a financial interest. Maybe he just gets talked into it by another foreign leader. And so, of course, if you stake your sort of foreign policy identity
on no more wars, and we're not going to do Middle East interventions, we're not going to send young American men and women to fight and die in a far off place for unclear reasons, unclear justifications, well, the Iran war is the opposite of all of that.
So he's forced all of these people who claimed that they were for Trump's foreign policy to either pick between their own integrity or following him to the exact opposite foreign policy. And some of them are going to follow him, and some of them are going to maintain whatever semblance of foreign policy integrity they have left. And they're both bad choices because they're both based on this premise that Donald Trump actually has a view of the world and America's role in it that doesn't -- isn't liable to change tomorrow. And guess what? It's going to change tomorrow again.
SIDNER: Joe, what do you make of what you're hearing from the Megyn Kellys and the Tucker Carlsons and Benny Johnsons?
BORELLI: I think S.E. is right. I think these are people who are grifters. They're going for clicks, payments, or their own aggrandizement, and they've flipped because it's politically expedient for them or profitable for them. That's fine.
But as the only Trump voter here, I don't agree with anything any of you are saying. And the important thing is a new Pew poll that came out on April 15th this week that shows the president still has the support of 88 percent of the Republican Party. Same poll at the end of the Biden term had him at 71 percent. Trump is immensely popular with the Republican base.
CUPP: No one argued that.
BORELLI: Despite all of the things you might say as -- none of you are Trump voters, and that's fine. But don't speak for Trump voters. We don't agree with what you're saying.
SIDNER: Coming up, is the Mamdani-Trump bromance done? What the New York mayor said this week that has that relationship on the rocks. We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:29:27]
SIDNER: As midterm season heats up, is taxing the rich becoming a flashpoint topic? The billionaire Tom Steyer, who is running for the California governorship, has made it one of his cornerstones that the richest should be taxed more. Donald Trump, not a fan, criticizing FOX News for, quote, "promoting him instead of talking about Republican candidates." Then, of course, a big announcement by the new mayor of New York City, a democratic socialist. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR ZOHRAN MAMDANI, (D) NEW YORK CITY: When I ran for mayor, I said I was going to tax the rich. Well, today we're taxing the rich.
[10:30:00]
I'm thrilled to announce we've secured a pied-a-terre tax, the first in New York's history. This is an annual fee on luxury properties worth more than $5 million, whose owners do not live full time in the city. Like for this penthouse, which hedge fund CEO Ken Griffin bought for $238 million. This pied-a-terre tax is specifically designed for the richest of the rich, those who store their wealth in New York City real estate, but who don't actually live here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: So their initial buddy-buddy relationship probably over. That move inspired Trump to declare that Mamdani is destroying New York, claiming that people are leaving the city "in drones." Are they leaving the city in drones?
AVLON: Uh, no. Not yet. But I do think, look, the problem is, is that New York has a combined tax rate that's 49th, 48th in the country. And so when you get politicians saying they should raise taxes further, the problem with raising state taxes further when you're already at the top is people can move across state lines, and they often do. Now, New York is resilient. New York is strong. A pied-a-terre tax for vacant apartments, not necessarily the worst option out of the bunch, because when people use their apartments vacant as a bank account, particularly for nationals, that doesn't benefit the local economy. But New York and other big states, particularly blue states, should be focusing on how to lower taxes, not raise them, because you need to be competitive as a state.
CUPP: I think that's exactly right. This particular tax seems OK because it's super targeted. And who has affection or affinity for like the billionaire who doesn't even live here, but has an obvious tax shelter.
But the, like, war on the rich for a play for Democrats just hasn't really been all that successful. If you look at Occupy Wall Street and all these other movements to do it.
SIDNER: Don't you think that's because Americans want to be rich? I mean.
CUP: Well, yes, and I was talking to a Democrat recently who said the new play has to be, don't you want to be rich too? To Democrats, especially Democrats in communities of color. To put wealthy Americans against, um, you know, middle class or, or poor Americans has not really worked politically. And I'm not sure that Mamdani seizing on the anti-rich message is going to be as effective as the message that got him elected, which was to seize on affordability, making your life more affordable and how here's how I'm going to do that. It's a much less of an us versus them, and we're all in this together message. I think that's much more successful than the tax the rich.
AVLON: But also how are you going to use the dollars to lower people's costs and improve the quality of life? Right. And so I think the center left needs to do a much better job of playing offense with ideas to address the affordability crisis that aren't simply the DSA playbook. But that's really important.
BORELLI: And to John's point, you know, this --
SIDNER: Wait, is there agreement here?
BORELLI: Oh, there's a lot of agreement here. But this this comes at the same time Mamdani is saying we're going to build this grocery store, which is going to cost 10 times the cost of the private sector in building and operating a grocery store. When you're saying we're going to tax the rich, but we're also going to light the money on fire, that's not popular.
We're all kind of in agreement at this. It is a clever tax, though. I will give him that. It's a very clever tax because these are the people -- yes, there's a foreign nationals parking money here in New York real estate. It's a safe investment. It's always been. That's one thing. But a lot of these pied-a-terres are actually people who fled and are doing six months in a day in Florida or South Carolina. So it is actually a very clever tax of taxing those people who have decided to forego New York City and state property taxes. Again --
CUPP: He talked about --
AVLON: So that's common ground with Joe Borelli and Mamdani, I just heard.
BORELLI: He's, look, he's a clever fox, man. He's a clever clucks, to use my Peppa Pig.
SIDNER: All right. Now to someone who is funny, but the subject is not funny. Comedian Andrew Schulz, who voted for Trump and hosted him on his podcast during the 2024 campaign. He questions why the White House would pardon -- would parade around this DoorDash grandmother who is telling everyone that the reason why it's so important for her to be able to have this job and no tax on tips is because they couldn't pay her husband's cancer bills. Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW SCHULZ, COMEDIAN: Why would you bring a grandma that needs to work DoorDash?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because they're talking about taxation on tips.
SCHULZ: Yes, but like, don't we want to live in a country where grandmas don't have to work DoorDash, where grandmas get to be retired, regardless of the tax code? Like what kind of delusional reality are we living in where he's parading around the grandma that's working DoorDash so she can afford to pay her husband's cancer bills? And he's like, see, we're not doing tips. Like, there's a whole other issue at hand here we need to focus on. No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AVLON: This is really important actually. Andrew Schulz --
CUPP: Welcome to the party, Andrew.
AVLON: -- is making a really important point. And it's part of what's happening with independent support for Trump going from the mid-40s to being cut in half to the low 20s, is that folks are saying, hold on. Yes, you want a tax cut, but what kind of country are we when grandmas got to work DoorDash to pay for her husband's cancer care?
[10:35:08]
Theres something fundamentally screwed up about our economy. And so I think that's a that's a that's an important bellwether, something like that.
SIDNER: And healthcare has been the one thing --
ROGIN: Right. And it was only a week ago that the president got in front of the country and said, oh, well, we can't afford Medicare. We can't afford, you know, services for children. We can't afford services for the poor, because that's just not what the federal government can do at the time. And at the same time, he's slashing taxes for the rich.
AVLON: And spending money on --
ROGIN: And slashing enforcement by cutting the IRS enforcement. And so I think everybody knows that, you know, his idea is to push all these costs onto the states. But that's a race to the bottom. So, you know, the policy that we have is one of starving the U.S. government, to starve the beast so that all the services for people like that woman go away and she's got to do DoorDash until she drops. And I think that's a direct result of the policy --
CUPP: Starve the beast is my love language as a conservative.
SIDNER: We're going to end this segment there again with S.E. Cupp.
Next, he doesn't speak often, but on the bench and in public, the Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas is speaking out against progressives, saying, quote, "intellectuals are a threat to America." We'll discuss.
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[10:41:03]
SIDNER: In rare remarks this week, Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas delivered a nearly hour-long lecture at U.T. Austin in honor of America's 250th. In those remarks, among other things, Thomas railed on intellectuals for the erosion of Americas founding ideals.
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JUSTICE CLARENCE THOMAS, U.S. SUPREME COURT: Intellectuals want you to believe that our founding principles are matters of esoteric philosophy or sophisticated debate. Even those who support them too often talk about them as if they were academic playthings. They overcomplicate them, take the spirit out of them, and discuss them in a way that puts us to sleep.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Thomas also took aim at progressivism, calling it an existential threat
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JUSTICE CLARENCE THOMAS, U.S. SUPREME COURT: Progressivism seeks to replace the basic premises of the Declaration of Independence, and hence our form of government. It holds that our rights and our dignities come not from God, but from government. It requires of the people a subservience and weakness incompatible with a constitution premised on the transcendent origin of our rights. Progressivism, in other words, is retrogressive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Didn't Justice Thomas go to Yale? Like when you start talking about --
CUPP: Intellectuals.
SIDNER: -- people who are intellectuals, he literally went to law school at Yale.
BORELLI: Look, Sara.
SIDNER: I don't understand.
BORELLI: I don't care where he went to college. I think he's incredibly accurate in what he said. I hope that those clips get repeated over and over again. And the chyron there said that he's very critical of progressivism. What he did say about progressivism is that it's full of cynicism, rejection, and hostility towards America. That was his actual criticism of progressivism.
And when you look at who are the -- who is the big voice that were debating in the Democratic Party right now who wants to be around all the politicians? It's Hasan Piker. This is someone who said America was responsible for 9/11. He calls America founded on settler colonialism. I mean, these are progressive movement spokespeople who are very, very anti-American in the concept of America as we believe it.
SIDNER: Is he in office?
BORELLI: No, you missed the point.
SIDNER: I am not missing the point.
BORELLI: OK, you're right. You had Ilhan Omar.
SIDNER: Hold on, you said he is a big voice for the progressive movement, and yet he's not in office.
BORELLI: So you have Ilhan Omar who calls this country systemically racist. You have AOC saying that --
SIDNER: That's because she believes it is. She's experienced it.
BORELLI: This is not a garbage company, but most of what we do is garbage. I think that is cynical about America. And if he wants to call it out, I hope we play the clip over and over again. You said, look, you called me out for not having an elected official. I gave you two right there. There are a lot of people in the progressive movement who are very cynical towards America. Jamaal Bowman, you know, this is a white supremacist country. I mean, that is cynical to America.
SIDNER: Go ahead.
AVLON: So, look, I mean, the progressive movement began with around the Teddy Roosevelt called the social gospel, right? These were people who were trying to implement the ideals of the New Testament, take care of the least of these, take care of the poor and the needy. So the conservative view of progressivism is that it's disconnected from God in the Bible. But that's the opposite of the actual roots of the original progressive movement.
And the other thing I think it's worth reflecting on is those founding values, which I care deeply about. George Washington warns about the dangers of hyper-partisanship, polarization, excessive debt, foreign wars, a lot of the degradation of morality that he's talking about, about the degradation --
BORELLI: -- argues the opposite. But we could play that game later.
AVLON: No, Federalist Ten actually says you got to focus on what unites us -- Federalist Ten says, you've got to focus on what unites us, not what divides us. That's why America will succeed.
So when Donald Trump and people misuse religion or misuse our founding or encourage attacks on the capitol because they lost an election, that's an overturning of founding values. And that's the myopia that's not being reflected in what may be true beneath Justice Thomas's impulse.
[10:45:01]
CUPP: Let me say that I agree with a lot of what Clarence Thomas said and what Joe is saying. If we just take progressivism in its modern context today, I think it is deeply cynical about America and it's systematic, substantive goodness. I think that's a fair characterization of progressivism.
I also think it's fair to say progressivism really leans into big government and government as a solution. The irony in all of this, and that shouldn't surprise anyone I'm conservative. The irony in all of this is no one has done more to boost progressivism than Donald Trump, because I'll tell you, back in 2012, we did the Republican autopsy. And we were really finding there was this like, turn away from government in 2012. Why? Because we had apps for that. We had a whole new class of people who were doing stuff the government didn't do or didn't do well. There was some sort of revolt against the ACA and this big giant health care.
And there was a moment in time where a good conservative could have come along and said, this is the moment. Not all Americans are into government as they as they used to be. Trump didn't care about any of that. And of course, he's huge government overreach. But I think the opportunity to argue against progressivism has come and gone, because Trump has leaned into so much of what progressives, the lament about America -- it's racist and xenophobic. He's like, let me lean in and show you just how much of that I can do. And let me show you just how incompetent I can make government, and just how much you're going to want government to come and rescue you from my overreach.
I think there's such an appetite for bigger government now that is undeserved and bad, problematic, because of what Trump has done to explode it and boost it and really point to progressivism's biggest laments about the country.
SIDNER: Don't you think some of the cynicism, though, is that, for example, you know, many people's children will not do better than they will? They don't have health care. Pay is not commensurate with the cost of things. And so of course, that's going to invite some negativity at the very least. What do you make of that?
ROGIN: No, I think a lot of the grievances against progressivism are, are can be valid. At the same time. To call it un-American is just a un-useful insult to the views of millions of Americans who have a view of America that is rooted in pluralism and progress and more liberal ideals, and that's as American as anything else. So once we start saying the guy who doesn't agree with me on x policy or this policy is un-American, well, that's kind of the end of the idea of having a constructive conversation at all.
And I don't think that our rights come from God or the government personally. And not being a progressive or a conservative, I think that our rights are innate, that -- call me a humanist, right? We don't have to depend on government or a celestial being for our rights. We just have them. We're born with them.
SIDNER: All right, next, the panel's unpopular opinions, unless you haven't already heard some.
(LAUGHTER)
SIDNER: What they're not afraid to say, exactly, out loud.
From red light therapy to sound therapy pods, Kara Swisher is trying out the trends and techniques shaping the longevity industry. Does any of all that really work? Watch a new episode of "Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever" Saturday at 9:00 p.m. on CNN, and next day on the CNN app.
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[10:53:14]
SIDNER: All right, we're back, and it's time for your unpopular opinions. Josh, you're up.
ROGIN: Yes, "Euphoria" season three, not terrible. Not that bad. I think there's been a lot of people hating on it because it's fun to hate on. A lot of drama behind the scenes. They can't get along. It's all politicized. But I think we're asking too much of our TV shows, OK. It's put your brain under the couch and just watch it. It's good. It's entertaining. And I hope that these guys can get along so that we can get through another season, maybe even get a season four. There, I said it.
SIDNER: That's usually what my brain is anyway. S.E.?
CUPP: Um, OK, festivals are terrible. I've been watching all the Coachella and all the coverage, and all I think about when I see Coachella and Burning Man is like, that's my nightmare. That is my absolute nightmare. But it's unfair because I would love a music festival, but for like, anxious, introverted adults. And so it has to be one day. It has to be max capacity 50 people, it has to be indoors and seated, and it has to be over by 9:00 p.m. Yes, that's the festival for me. And these festivals are exclusionary.
AVLON: Who would play?
CUPP: Well, all my favorite artists would play it, but they don't play for just 50 people indoors before 9:00, apparently. Apparently.
ROGIN: For enough money they do.
AVLON: All right, so there's a new play on Broadway called "Giant," which is about the great Children's book author Roald Dahl. It's excellent. John Lithgow is brilliant. But it's a very dark look at his antisemitism, and it focuses on how one thing that radicalized him was the bombing in Beirut that killed children. And that slippery slope where being anti-Israel becomes antisemitic. And it's a dark look.
However, I think people should resist the impulse to cancel Roald Dahl over his bigotry, because you do need to separate the books, the art from the artist, particularly 50 years after their death.
[10:55:04]
And books like "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" and "Fantastic Mr. Fox" are wonderful books. Yes. And so I just, this is sort of a plea to separate the art from the artist, and to look at it that way.
SIDNER: That's a fascinating. All right?
BORELLI: Well, speaking of "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory," of the Hershey's four pack, miniature four pack, the Mr. Goodbar is the top dog. Don't come at me with your Krackel. Don't come at me with your dark chocolate. It's jug city.
SIDNER: Open it up. BORELLI: Let this stuff rain.
CUPP: I agree with you, Joe.
BORELLI: This is the best.
CUPP: It is the best. It is the best one.
BORELLI: Take them, take them. We're all getting them. Keep your Krackel. I know you're a Krackel lady.
SIDNER: No thanks. You can take that back. And you know what? These are all the ones that are left in the office.
GORMAN: Because nobody eats them.
SIDNER: Nobody eats them. So it is an unpopular opinion.
(LAUGHTER)
BORELLI: I'll enjoy it.
SIDNER: Well, everyone has a little sweet treat. Thanks, Joe.
Thank you so much for watching "TABLE FOR FIVE" for five. But in the meantime, CNN's coverage continues right after this.
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