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CNN Live Event/Special
The California Governor Primary Debate. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired May 05, 2026 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANTONIO VILLARAIGOSA (D), CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: But the fact is, Xavier, I've been in enough forums with you where I've heard you say you're for it and I've heard you say you're against it.
XAVIER BECERRA (D), CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: I've never said I'm against it.
[22:00:03]
VILLARAIGOSA: Hold it. Let me finish.
BECERRA: I've never said it.
VILLARAIGOSA: Let me finish. I've heard you say that you're against it.
BECERRA: Point to me the forum that I said it in.
VILLARAIGOSA: And it's such a great -- first of all --
BECERRA: Well, if you could just point the forum that I said it, because I've never said it. So --
VILLARAIGOSA: We've been at many forums where you said it, but let me finish the point. It's a $500 billion price tag. You need the federal government, you need Donald Trump to approve it. Our budget is only 350-plus, and next year we're looking at $18 to $35 billion deficit. People like you are the reason why we keep on spending more than we got.
So, at the end of the day, let's be clear about this, this is pie in the sky. Yes, we all would like to have healthcare that's not -- that's affordable.
ELEX MICHAELSON, CNN HOST: Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Secretary --
VILLARAIGOSA: But we won't have a $550 billion --
MICHAELSON: Secretary Becerra, your response to that argument that this is just too expensive for California, your response.
BECERRA: Look, healthcare is expensive, but what we have to do is reduce the cost and expand the coverage to everyone, and that's what I did as secretary. They can ignore those points. They can lie about them, but the fact is, by the time I left the secretary position at HHS, we had expanded coverage to more Americans than ever in the history, and we had dropped the cost of care for millions of Americans under Obamacare. Those are facts --
VILLARAIGOSA: It's $550 billion price tag.
MICHAELSON: Mr. Hilton, to you, the idea of single payer healthcare.
STEVE HILTON (R), CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Just listen to these Democrats arguing about whether to go left or even further left, when that's the direction that's got us into this mess, the highest cost, the highest taxes in the country. I'm the only person here with actual experience of single payer healthcare, both as a patient and as a policymaker.
As a patient, it nearly killed me. That's another story we don't have time for. As a policymaker, you end up with the worst patient satisfaction, cost that you can't afford, taxes sky high to pay for it. It is a total disaster. And the actual way we deal with healthcare in this state is to at least stop spending $20 billion a year on free healthcare for illegal immigrants who shouldn't even be in the country in the first place.
MICHAELSON: Yes, and he's referencing his time as a U.K. citizen before moving to California.
Mr. Mayor?
MATT MAHAN (D), CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Yes, once again, we're hearing a lot of rhetoric at the extreme ends of the political spectrum here. When the secretary left his position, healthcare spending was a bigger share of GDP than ever before, pushing families to the brink. It's an administrative nightmare, as everybody knows if they've ever tried to get an insurance claim filed. We're not talking about the real issue here. And Antonio's right. All the candidates who are fighting for single payer don't know how to pay for it, and they're not being honest about it.
The reality is our healthcare system is broken. 30 percent of the cost in California is an administrative cost. We can use technology to bring down those costs.
Number two, we are not incentivizing health.
MICHAELSON: Yes.
MAHAN: We reward fee for service, more procedures --
MICHAELSON: Thank you, sir.
MAHAN: -- more prescription drugs. We should reward doctors and health systems for making people healthier.
MICHAELSON: Thank you,
Mr. Mayor. Mr. Steyer, this next question is for you. It's on the same topic, so you can use some of your time for that.
In last year's budget, Governor Gavin Newsom cut healthcare funding for undocumented immigrants to address a budget gap. As governor, would you restore that funding?
TOM STEYER (D), BUSINESSMAN: I believe everybody in California has a right to healthcare, but the truth of the matter is, it is eating up our budget, and it's more than that, Elex. It is eating up every single family. You talked about how many people are giving up healthcare so they can make -- healthcare so they can make rent. You're talking about businesses that can't compete because healthcare's so expensive, and it is eating up the budget of the state of California.
When people sit here and say, let's do the same thing, we can't afford to do the same thing. It is eating up our budget. Look at the numbers. That's why I changed my mind, Katie, because I looked at the facts. Single payer healthcare systems cost half as much as the system in total that we have now. And, yes, it's going to be a big, you know, job to get us to single payer.
But the truth is, we don't have a choice. Because right now, people are suffering, they're giving up healthcare. Every medical crisis turns into a financial disaster. The truth is we don't have a choice but to go to single payer, and you need somebody who's going to fight for it. And the person who's going to fight for it --
MAHAN: Why do they cost less, though?
MICHAELSON: To clarify, Mr. Steyer, on the question of healthcare for the undocumented, would you restore --
STEYER: I said everybody in California has a right to healthcare. And let's answer this --
MICHAELSON: And California should fund that?
STEYER: The truth of the matter is, immigrants built this state. Immigrants make this state run. The fact of the matter is we had a broken immigration system, and now you want to victimize the people who are working here and making this state run.
MICHAELSON: Thank you, sir.
STEYER: As Antonio said, try and get rid of them. You can't do it.
MICHAELSON: Let's go to Sheriff Bianco. Your thoughts on this idea of undocumented healthcare funding.
[22:05:04]
CHAD BIANCO (R), CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: It's ridiculous. We're -- when are we going to draw the line at any other crime? It's illegal. They entered the country illegally. We're not going to incentivize them to come here to take more of the resources that regular Californians aren't getting. The ones that are struggling here that are here legally, they're not getting that. They're not getting free education. They're not getting free medical. They're not getting free food. They're not getting all of those things that the illegal ones are getting, and we're somehow celebrating that when the legal immigrants here don't get that. It makes absolutely no sense. And healthcare, no one's talking about, how about we try and make people healthy?
MICHAELSON: So, Congresswoman Porter, your thoughts on the idea of funding healthcare for undocumented immigrants statewide.
FMR. REP. KATIE PORTER (D-CA): Yes.
MICHAELSON: Yes. And to --
PORTER: And that's, by the way, what I think Californians deserve as answers to these questions, Elex.
MICHAELSON: And for critics who say that we can't afford it, what do you say to that?
PORTER: We can't afford to have people who are sick, who are making the rest of us sick. When anyone --
BIANCO: They shouldn't be here.
PORTER: -- doesn't have care -- when anyone doesn't have care, the rest of us are at risk. When people don't get vaccinations, when they don't go to the doctor, they wind up in the emergency room. They cause longer lines for the rest of us. They make our healthcare system, they push it to the brink. And that was exactly where we were when we expanded healthcare and health coverage to make sure that everyone can be healthy.
The direction that got us into this mess is Democrats catering to big pharmaceutical companies and big insurance companies. And Mr. Becerra has taken $2 million from in his career and still won't give us a yes or no answer on where he stands.
Every other candidate on the stage gave an answer on single payer, and it was clear. He's the only one who won't. And, to me, with healthcare on the line, that's disqualifying.
MICHAELSON: Thank you. Yes.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Secretary Becerra, do you want to respond to that?
BECERRA: Yes. First, immigrants, whether documented or not, work hard. They pay taxes, and sometimes they get injured on the job or their children get sick. It would be foolish to tell a family that they don't have access to the pediatrician or the family doc or not be able to use the community health center, where it wouldn't cost us so much to give them health -- access to good healthcare.
Instead, what'll happen is that child will get so ill that they will have to take that child to the hospital. And what door do they enter? The most expensive door in the healthcare system, the emergency room door. Why do that and spend so much money when you can do it up front? And so, yes, let us provide the care to all the people who work hard and make California a better place. COLLINS: Secretary Becerra, thank you for that.
I have a question for you on another issue that has come up repeatedly during this campaign. You're actually part of a lawsuit against Sheriff Bianco here over his seizure of more than half a million ballots that was brought up earlier in Riverside County from last year's election. He says he's investigating allegations of election fraud. Election officials say that those claims aren't valid. Do you believe that the sheriff here committed a crime?
BECERRA: The sheriff is supposed to enforce the law. In this case, Sheriff Bianco violated the law. There are ways that you treat ballots. You have to maintain the integrity of every ballot so you know, I know, we all know, that no one will tamper with your ballot. There is a chain of custody requirement that the law says you have to follow in order to let that ballot move anywhere.
Sheriff Bianco didn't follow that process. He violated the law --
BIANCO: We're not talking about elections.
BECERRA: -- as the sheriff. So, absolutely, that's why we are suing him --
BIANCO: We're not talking about the elections.
BECERRA: -- to get back the ballots. He cannot claim under cover of an investigation that he has the right to take these ballots and break that chain of custody. That's against the law. That's why we're suing, and that's why he's going to lose in the Supreme Court.
COLLINS: Sheriff Bianco?
BIANCO: It's not true. None of that is true. This is all political so he could get his name in the papers that he's suing for all of this.
VILLARAIGOSA: It is true.
BIANCO: It's all garbage.
VILLARAIGOSA: -- Sheriff Bianco.
BIANCO: You don't know anything about it.
VILLARAIGOSA: Yes, I do.
BIANCO: Can I answer?
VILLARAIGOSA: It is true.
BIANCO: Can I answer?
VILLARAIGOSA: You broke the law.
BIANCO: Can I answer? I am tasked, elected and tasked, with enforcing the law in Riverside County, and part of that is fraud. Election fraud is against the law. There is absolutely nothing we did that was illegal. And the real issue here is the attorney general just doesn't want them counted, so the issue at stake in the Supreme Court is whether he has the authority to order me to not do an investigation. That's all this is.
Don't lie. You two have no idea what was going on in that investigation.
COLLINS: Secretary Becerra, your response?
BIANCO: You're making it political.
BECERRA: Yes. He's being sued by the attorney general, but he's also being sued by those of us who want to protect the ballot. And what we are saying, Sheriff, is that if you're going to try to get a ballot, follow the law. The law's pretty clear. All you had to do was read the law. You cannot take ballots, confiscate them, and count them yourself. You have to have people who are trained and the judge agrees to do that.
BIANCO: We can, and the judge agreed.
BECERRA: You cannot do that. That's why the Supreme Court has stopped you from being able to count those ballots.
COLLINS: Mr. Hilton, what's your view of this?
BIANCO: So, that's a lie.
HILTON: My view is that it's a bit rich for Xavier to talk about following the law when he is mired personally in a corruption scandal where his former chief of staff, Sean McCluskie, when Xavier was appointed by Joe Biden to be health secretary, he wanted his chief of staff to go with him.
[22:10:13]
The salary wasn't enough. So, what did they do? They took money from Xavier's campaign account to top up his salary by funneling it to Dana Williamson, Gavin Newsom's former chief of staff, so that it was paid to this guy's wife.
COLLINS: Secretary Becerra, I want you --
HILTON: All of that is illegal. It is against state law. It's against federal law. My running mate for attorney general, Michael Gates, has this evening written to Xavier Becerra to make it clear that when he is attorney general, Xavier will be investigated --
COLLINS: Thank you. And, Mr. Hilton --
HILTON: -- and, if necessary, prosecuted for these crimes.
COLLINS: Mr. Hilton, just to clarify the question about the seizure of the ballots in Riverside County, do you believe that Sheriff Bianco took the right step there? HILTON: I'm not going to weigh in on something that I don't have the knowledge of the facts on. I trust that Chad is interested in what we should all be interested in, which is ensuring the integrity of our elections and restoring faith in our elections in California. That's why I support voter I.D. in California. Let's see what these Democrats think of voter I.D.
COLLINS: And, Secretary Becerra, your response to Mr. Hilton.
BECERRA: Yes. First, Steve, read the law. In order to remove ballots, you have to follow a process. Sheriff Bianco didn't follow it. If you're not going to enforce the law as governor, then why would you want to sit in the office? But to --
HILTON: Well, if you're not -- if you're going to break --
BECERRA: But to the point about the same fraud you investigated while you were attorney general, this issue, Steve, again, read the indictment. I was not involved in the actions that --
HILTON: It was your chief of staff.
BIANCO: Well, actually, Xavier --
(CROSSTALKS)
COLLINS: Secretary Becerra, go ahead.
BECERRA: Yes. Steve, if you knew the law, you have to have basis to go after someone criminally. I am not involved in that action. Now, you can --
HILTON: It was your chief of staff and it was your decision --
BECERRA: And the people who ignore (ph) money --
HILTON: Because people who -- you were the one hired to go to Washington as health secretary.
COLLINS: Let Secretary Becerra --
HILTON: And you wanted him. You wanted this guy by your side. And the reason that the money was transferred is because the salary wasn't high enough. And that's why you engaged in this scheme, which is illegal under state law and federal law.
COLLINS: Secretary Becerra, continue responding.
BECERRA: So, you notice that nowhere in the indictment is anything that Steve said included there. If you violate the law, you will be prosecuted. No one is above the law. You will be held accountable. If I had been involved, the U.S. attorney would've had me in that indictment. I was not involved.
But here's what I will say. Steve, I hope you speak as ferociously about Donald Trump's violation of the law every time you're sitting in the governor's office trying to protect the people of California. Because the last thing we need is to have an executive who continues to violate the rights of Californians and have a governor who just sits back and agrees with that executive named Donald Trump.
MICHAELSON: All right. Let's talk about housing. Skyrocketing costs, severe shortage have made the state unlivable for many. Overall, home ownership rates are at their lowest since the 1940s.
Mr. Hilton, you say that California needs to, quote, end the war on single family homes. Your housing plan focuses on the building of single family homes over high density multi-family developments. Why do you think that's the best approach?
HILTON: And just today I launched a new plan for starter homes in California. One of the most heartbreaking things I see is young people, they come to our events and I ask them, do you ever see yourself owning a home in California, starting a family here? And they say, no, and we're going to have to leave.
And that's why we've got to enact a very straightforward plan. Number one, we have to get rid of the regulations that make it two or three times as expensive to build the exact same home in California as in neighboring states. We have to stop the lawsuits filed by the unions who support these Democrats that get in the way of building housing. And to your point, we have to stop trying to force housing into suburban neighborhoods where people don't want it. Instead, we have to build single family homes in the places in our state that do want to expand.
That's the plan, to make sure that we can restore that California dream of home ownership. It is the heart of opportunity for our young people, and it's being taken away by these Democrats and their policies.
MICHAELSON: Mayor Mahan, your response.
MAHAN: Yes. Look, again, these guys can talk, but I've actually delivered as mayor of the third-largest city in the state. I removed barriers to building thousands of homes that are currently under construction. We added thousands of interim housing placements and brought homeless neighbors indoors, reducing our unsheltered homeless population by one-third.
We've led the state in building ADUs and making it easy for people to put backyard cottages in for a child returning home from college or a grandparent. I'm the only candidate on the stage who has actually taken on the bureaucracy, the red tape, reduced fees and permitting times, and delivered housing for working people.
MICHAELSON: Mayor Villaraigosa?
VILLARAIGOSA: Well, actually, I built more market rate, affordable workforce and homeless housing in eight years in the middle of a recession than they did in the 12 years before me.
[22:15:12] So, you're not the only one on this stage that has done that.
But I want to return to what was just mentioned. Look, the fact of the matter is Xavier Becerra's chief of staff has been indicted. A number of people have been indicted. Xavier signed those documents. He said that he thought $10,000 wasn't a lot to maintain that account. Well, he actually had two accounts. The other one he paid $1,500 for.
So, the fact is he may not be indicted at this point, but he has to be under suspicion because it doesn't pass the smell test.
MICHAELSON: Secretary Becerra?
BECERRA: As I said, anyone who violates the law should be held accountable. If people want to judge me, judge me on what I've done. I expanded healthcare to more Americans than anyone in the history of the country serving as secretary. I was able to negotiate for the first time ever lower drug prices as secretary of Health and Human Services. I took on Donald Trump when he tried to attack the state of California over and over again.
If you want to judge me on the things that I've done, not on scurrilous claims made by people who are trying to become governor of the state of California.
MICHAELSON: Let's talk about homelessness. Mayor Mahan, this question's for you. California has among the highest homeless rates in the country. Sheriff Bianco takes issue with the term homeless itself. He says, quote, we will quit calling it homeless. This is not about homes. They don't even want homes. They're perfectly happy where they are. Do you agree that Californians sleeping on the streets don't want homes?
MAHAN: Well, look, first of all, I just have to set the record straight on Xavier's touting his experience. The Biden administration, President Biden openly talked about firing him, had to sideline him during COVID because he wasn't delivering results. And I am still in shock in this debate that despite being given the opportunity three times in a row by Katie, he was unable to clearly answer the most important question on healthcare --
BECERRA: I did answer that question.
MAHAN: -- as our former secretary of Health and Human Services.
BECERRA: I answered it very clearly.
MAHAN: On homelessness, though, I just -- I can't let that slide. I'm sorry. Facts matter.
On homelessness --
BECERRA: I did answer the question.
MAHAN: I have led the state in reducing unsheltered homelessness by finding a balanced approach that is compassionate but also accountable.
BIANCO: It's not compassionate.
MAHAN: I stood up to the system that was building million-dollar-a- door solutions, taking years on end, and said, this is never going to scale. We're building basic, dignified shelter. We're working with our county to expand inpatient treatment. And when those beds are available, we are requiring that people come indoors. That's a pragmatic approach. It's leading the state. It's what we need to do in every city and county in California.
MICHAELSON: Sheriff Bianco, the issue of homelessness, then we'll bring you in, Mr. Steyer. Sheriff Bianco?
BIANCO: Yes. So this has nothing to do with homes. And it's unfortunate for the people there that they were just relocated to a hard roof instead of a tent so he could run for governor. Because he could -- he had four years to do that and chose not to, but right before he runs for governor, he has to relocate all of them.
The bottom line is this, that's not compassionate, because they're still under the influence of drugs. They're still experiencing mental health issues. They're still experiencing the combination of both, and we are not giving them the treatment that they need.
This is not about homes. This is about mental health treatment, drug and alcohol treatment, most importantly, the combination of both, and it is not compassion if we are not going to give them the treatment.
MICHAELSON: We're going to give the mayor a chance to respond and then we'll bring Steyer in.
MAHAN: Yes. I mean, it's interesting. In fact, first of all, more than half of the candidates on the stage have visited San Jose to see our success in interim housing. We've added thousands of units, moved thousands of people indoors. In just in the three years that I have been mayor, we have graduated about 30 percent of those people to permanent housing. We're saving lives, fewer deaths on our streets, fewer tent encampments. In fact, right now we're in the midst of resolving the last large tent encampment in the city of San Jose. Those are the kinds of results we need to see statewide.
MICHAELSON: Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Mr. Steyer, the issue of homelessness --
STEYER: Homelessness is very important, but the number one problem in California is Californians can't afford to live here. And the number one issue on affordability is housing, and we skipped over it. We didn't really talk about how we're going to build houses in this state. And the truth is, people can talk about permitting, and it's true, I worked for reform of CEQA. They can talk about zoning. We need to build densely around public transportation, and they can talk about constructing offsite. It'll drop costs by at least a third.
But what they don't talk about is the cities and counties of this state do not want new housing, because new housing brings in people, and they can't afford to pay the health and education costs. That's why the fact that I'm willing to close a corporate loophole and bring in -- no, but let me say this. This is the key. They will welcome housing if they can afford to take care of the people. And I talked to a mayor on Saturday who said, if you'll do it, I'll support you, and I love it.
COLLINS: I want to turn to --
[22:20:04]
MAHAN: He's talking about raising taxes on small business. When Tom says, we're closing a corporate loophole, what he's not telling you is he's raising taxes on commercial property across the board. That means all of your office uses, all your small businesses, that's just going to get passed on to consumers and make the cost of living in California even higher. And it's not going to fund single payer because that's ten times more expensive than the revenue he's going to collect.
COLLINS: Mr. Steyer?
MAHAN: Raising taxes isn't always the answer, Tom.
STEYER: How is it possible that he could possibly know what this bill says since it hasn't been written? The truth is we're going to give an exception for small businesses. The idea of this is corporations are spending -- are getting taxed for real estate on their basis in the 1970s. Disney, $10 billion -- hundreds of billions of companies --
HILTON: Sorry, it's about homelessness.
COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Steyer. I'm sorry.
HILTON: This is about homelessness.
COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Steyer. I want to turn to --
(CROSSTALKS)
COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Steyer. I want to turn to issues of leadership, which is something that obviously all of you would be in the position to deal with if you are elected governor. And, Mayor Villaraigosa, you actually put out an ad of your own recently that highlighted your opponent here, Congresswoman Katie Porter, threatening to cut off an interview with a reporter. That came after a video surfaced of her berating a member of her staff.
If a senior official in your government acted as she did in those videos, would you fire them?
VILLARAIGOSA: Yes. But let's be clear. That's irrelevant because one of us will be the next governor, not -- and but let me just say something about what Xavier Becerra has refused to answer, and that is that your chief of staff was indicted for padding his salary with your campaign funds. You initially on CNN said that you knew -- that you signed it. You knew that they spent $10,000. And then on the second time on your show, you said you didn't know. The fact is, as I said, I think you have to answer.
BECERRA: That's not true.
VILLARAIGOSA: You had two committees. You spent $1,500 for one and $10,000 for the other.
BECERRA: You don't get the facts straight, and I hope I can clarify it.
COLLINS: Mr. Mayor --
PORTER: I'm sorry, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: I want to go Congresswoman Porter since she is --
BECERRA: Wait, Kaitlan, wait, time out.
COLLINS: I'll come to you, Secretary Becerra.
PORTER: No, I'm sorry. It is my turn.
COLLINS: But given she's at the center of that ad, and you've put out an ad of your own now making light of that interaction that you had with your staffer --
PORTER: That's not correct, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: -- which you said you apologized for.
PORTER: That is not correct. The ad is about showing Californians what they've had a chance to see on this stage tonight and in every other debate stage that we've had, which is that I'm able to take responsibility, I'm able to follow the rules, I'm able to say I'm sorry, and I'm able to do better.
Everybody in California had a chance to see me on stage with that reporter in the last debate and see exactly how I conducted myself. Californians can decide for themselves about my temperament based on what they've seen here tonight. And if these boys bullying and bickering hasn't been enough to raise questions about their temperament, I would really challenge that.
I have taken responsibility at this point hundreds of times, and that's appropriate because I made a bad decision, and I treated someone badly. I apologized five years ago for it, and we worked together for four more years. What I haven't heard is the people on this stage who have made other bad decisions and other mistakes and other failures of leadership. Not one of them, not one of these men have said in this entire campaign, I've made a mistake, not for not being able to account for undocumented children who wound up in child labor. You called that MAGA talking points and a hoax, Mr. Becerra. You -- like I could go down the line. I don't even want to waste my time on this. I just want to say to California, I have taken responsibility. I have shown that. And what that ad is about, Kaitlan, is about showing that I can laugh at myself, I can hold myself to account, and I have the fitness, the temperament, and the best ideas to be governor. And everybody's had a chance to see now in three debates how I conduct myself.
COLLINS: Thank you, Congresswoman Porter. And on this issue of leadership, Sheriff Bianco, you had harsh criticism --
BECERRA: Kaitlan, I have to interject. I've been -- my name has been used several times, and I've patiently waited --
COLLINS: And Secretary Becerra I'll come to you on --
BECERRA: No, you said -- but, Kaitlan, you said that the last time.
COLLINS: I'll come to you on what the Congresswoman said. I promise. Don't worry.
BECERRA: Thank you.
COLLINS: But Sheriff Bianco, on this issue of leadership, you -- I saw the two of you chatting earlier, you and Mr. Hilton. You've actually had some harsh words for your fellow Republican on the stage tonight. You've called him, quote, unethical and dishonest and said that he is trying to, quote, manipulate Californians and, quote, swindled his way into the Republican side. Are you saying that you don't think Republican voters can trust Mr. Hilton?
[22:25:03]
BIANCO: Well, I will tell you, I don't know where that came from. I would tell you in my entire life I don't think I've used the word swindle, so I don't know if you were quoting something or if you were saying that -- if you were saying that.
COLLINS: It's a quote from you to The Atlantic.
BIANCO: No. I don't -- I've never used the word swindle. Have Steve and I disagreed? Absolutely, we have. We had our quite big disagreements and battles in this election because he's running his campaign, I'm running mine, and they're different.
COLLINS: But you're denying that you said these quotes?
BIANCO: No. I'm saying that I don't know where that came from. I would never -- I would never use the word swindled. But the context, yes, I have said that. It's unethical.
I'm the only person up here that their entire existence in their job revolves around honesty, integrity, and leadership. I'm the only one. Right now, lying can get me removed from my job --
COLLINS: Can I just clarify -- BIANCO: -- unlike what they're saying.
COLLINS: -- with you, because this says it's from an interview with KBAK that happened in April of this year where you said, he's trying to figure out how he can manipulate Californians to put him in this position at a time when we know that California Democrats have failed and we are going to vote for a Republican governor, and he has swindled his way into the Republican side even though he's not.
BIANCO: I probably did say that. I didn't use the word swindled, whatever it was. But that context, I will agree with that 100 percent.
COLLINS: So, you --
BIANCO: I do believe that.
COLLINS: Okay. So, you did say the quote?
BIANCO: Sure.
COLLINS: Mr. Hilton?
HILTON: Look, this is a very serious moment for California. The ballots are out. They're in your hands. And we have a really big choice to make, which is do we go for another four years of one-party rule that's given us the highest taxes for the worst results, the highest poverty rate, highest unemployment rate, highest cost of living, serious policy questions, homelessness. We need to stop homelessness and end it. We need to stop funding fiascos, like high- speed rail.
COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Hilton.
HILTON: We need to lift burdens on our business. That's what this debate needs to be about. And the only way to get the change we need is to not vote the same way and think you're going to get a different result.
COLLINS: I do have to go back to Secretary Becerra since I did promise you that I would let you respond to that since Congresswoman Porter invoked your name a few moments ago. She was talking about your leadership. Would you like to respond to her?
BECERRA: Yes, I think everyone's invoking my name. It's nice to hear my name quite a bit, and they're at least pronouncing it correctly.
VILLARAIGOSA: And it shouldn't be.
BECERRA: I will tell you this. Distorting the facts in your quest to be governor is never good. But using Trump lies to try to damage your opponents is worse, and that's what we see happening.
Everyone knows that Trump campaigned in 2024 talking about lost kids when there were no such thing as lost kids. To hear these candidates now talk about that, if they're so concerned, why haven't they taken any action to find these lost kids? I think it's shameful for people to use Trump lies to try to gain favor with voters when you know it's not true. Use the facts. We should have a governor who relies on the facts. I will speak the facts when I'm governor because that's what the California voters deserve.
VILLARAIGOSA: I feel compelled to fact check it.
MICHAELSON: Staying on staying on the topic.
VILLARAIGOSA: It was a New York Times Pulitzer Prize-winning investigation.
BECERRA: And read the article, Antonio.
VILLARAIGOSA: It's not Donald Trump who --
BECERRA: Read the article, Antonio.
VILLARAIGOSA: 26 Democrats, I think --
MICHAELSON: All right, Mayor Villaraigosa. We're going to move on.
VILLARAIGOSA: Be accountable.
MICHAELSON: All right. We're going to move on. On the topic of leadership, I want to talk about California Governor Gavin Newsom, who's about to leave office after eight consequential and, at times, controversial years.
To all of you, what is one word you would use to describe Governor Newsom's performance as governor? We will go down the line starting with you, Mayor Villaraigosa, one word to describe Governor Newsom's performance as governor.
VILLARAIGOSA: Performative.
PORTER: Bold.
STEYER: Progressive.
HILTON: Failed.
BIANCO: Failure.
HILTON: You can't take my word.
BECERRA: Game changing.
MAHAN: Incomplete.
MICHAELSON: We'll be right back with more of the California Governor Primary Debate right here on CNN.
[22:29:36]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [22:34:23]
MICHAELSON: Welcome back to the California governor's debate.
I want to move now to the issue of artificial intelligence. The next governor will have to navigate a pivotal moment in the A.I. revolution, balancing its immense potential with the possibility of massive job loss in our state.
Mayor Mahan, Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei says A.I. could wipe out half of all entry-level white-collar jobs and spike unemployment to 10 to 20 percent in the next five years. As governor of California, would you require A.I. companies to compensate people displaced by their own technology, and how so?
[22:35:02]
MAHAN: Well, Elex, as the mayor of the largest city in Silicon Valley, I have seen these tools up close, and they can be used to make life better, but they also come with great risks.
And people are right to be worried. I have regulated big tech. We started something called the GovAI Coalition to create frameworks for how cities, counties and others should use these tools responsibly. I created the first and largest A.I. upskilling curriculum for city workers. This year, 1,000 city workers in San Jose will go through our upskilling curriculum.
The answer is to tax these companies and fund work force development, upskilling courses, and create the shared prosperity that we need, the pathways to the jobs of the future, but not to regulate them to the point that they simply go to other places and then this change happens to us.
MICHAELSON: Mr. Steyer, your thoughts on A.I.?
STEYER: Well, what we can't have in A.I. is for it to succeed, and we create 12 trillionaires and millions of people who lose their jobs.
The number one thing we have to do is make sure that A.I. is a tool for workers, and not a replacement of workers. And we absolutely need to own part of it. The people of California need to have a tax or a fee on every calculation.
And we will use that to protect workers. We will use that to retrain workers. And if there's money left over, we will use it for a sovereign wealth fund. This is a California innovation and technology. We own the beach.
MICHAELSON: Thank you.
STEYER: We should own part of A.I.
MICHAELSON: Mr. Hilton, the original question, would you require A.I. companies to compensate people displaced by their technologies? And how so? HILTON: It's classic Democrats, isn't it, what you're hearing? If it moves, tax it. If it still moves, regulate it. And if it stops moving, I guess they want to subsidize it.
Look, the truth is, on this, we have to have a bit of humility. This is a very fast-moving technology. And, actually, even the people involved in it disagree about its exact consequences.
Here are two things that we -- two practical things we could and should be doing better today. First of all, the real blue-collar jobs that are coming from the A.I. revolution, they're not happening in California. They're going to Texas and Arizona, semiconductor manufacturing. We could get that back by removing regulations.
MICHAELSON: Thank you.
HILTON: And, secondly...
MICHAELSON: Thank you, sir.
HILTON: ... our school system is not educating our kids to be able to thrive in this world of A.I.
MICHAELSON: Thank you, Mr. Hilton.
Congresswoman Porter.
HILTON: We need to do better.
PORTER: A.I. is a policy choice.
We get to decide, as Californians, whether we want these technologies to work for us and to help us or whether we want to stand by and let them gut our economy. We have -- I have talked about how A.I. could be -- could be delivering a four-day workweek for every single Californian, something that OpenAI came out this week talking about.
I'm seeing A.I. already in my classrooms, having to write an A.I. policy with my kids' homework. We have to decide, do we want A.I. to work for all of us? And I think, when A.I. uses what people have done...
MICHAELSON: Thank you.
PORTER: ... what workers have done, workers should be compensated for those inputs.
MICHAELSON: Thank you, Congresswoman.
COLLINS: Obviously, A.I. is a huge issue that, as governor, any of you would have to deal with.
Also one that is under way right now in California, a changing climate that has been exacerbating water shortages, poor air quality, and, of course, disasters like wildfires that people in this state are unfortunately all too familiar with. According to analysis from our partner USAFacts, California has actually declared nearly 50 disasters in just the last five years.
Mr. Steyer, your opponent here Mr. Hilton says that there is no evidence of California's regulations actually helping the climate. What's your response to him?
STEYER: Well, I think that Mr. Hilton is ridiculous. Mr. Hilton is a an apologist...
HILTON: I love you too, Tom.
STEYER: He's an apologist for fossil fuels. He is an apologist for this war to control fossil fuels.
The truth of the matter is, clean energy is now much cheaper than fossil fuel energy. We're an electric revolution the world over. That's why I'm insisting that the electric monopolies have local competition to drive down costs for Californians.
That's why I'm saying we should triple the tax credit for people to buy E.V.s, because E.V.s are the absolute future. The truth of the matter is, it's very simple in terms of what we have to do in terms of energy. We need to make the polluters pay. We have to take environmental justice at the beginning of every conversation.
And we need to deploy the clean energy technology that is here, that is invented by Californians, that will allow us to build huge companies all over the world. Right now, Donald Trump is fighting for the buggy whip. He is fighting for the black-and-white TV. He is fighting for the past.
The truth is, this world is moving to electricity at warp speed on every continent. And the United States is still hanging on to the past.
COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Steyer.
I believe he called you ridiculous.
Is that your word, Mr. Steyer?
STEYER: I think that was my word, actually.
(LAUGHTER)
COLLINS: Would you like to respond, Mr. Hilton, to that charge?
HILTON: Again, I don't want to respond to silly insults, but I will take the substantive point, which is, first of all, when Tom talks about tripling subsidies for electric vehicles, let's be clear what that is.
[22:40:09]
That is higher taxes on hardworking Californians driving their gas cars and trucks every day, so that Tom's rich friends can feel virtuous about saving the climate. The truth is, we need common sense on climate change. It doesn't make sense to import oil from halfway around the world, increasing carbon emissions in the name of climate.
It doesn't make sense to allow mega-wildfires in our forests that actually release more carbon dioxide than what is saved by all these years of climate policy.
COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Hilton.
Mr. Steyer?
STEYER: Look, I think that description of how we should handle the gasoline crisis is not real-world.
The truth of the matter is, we're paying gasoline prices based on world prices. We're not paying gasoline prices based on what it costs to get oil in California. We're paying world prices. That's why...
(CROSSTALK)
HILTON: Then why are they $2 higher here than everywhere else?
(CROSSTALK)
STEYER: That's why they have gone up a buck 50, Steve, because of the war in Iran. That is not because, all of a sudden, the costs in California went by a buck 50.
(CROSSTALK)
STEYER: Drilling more in California is not going to change the price we pay at the pump. The price we pay at the pump is what the oil companies gouge us for because they're charging us what everyone else in the world pays.
COLLINS: Mayor Villaraigosa, can you respond to this in terms of as someone who was the mayor of Los Angeles? Mr. Hilton is saying the climate regulations don't work, don't actually help the climate. Mr. Steyer is saying they do.
VILLARAIGOSA: Mr. Hilton is wrong.
But let me be clear. I had a 100 percent record on the environment in the six years I was in the legislature. I passed the Carl Moyer Act, which was the biggest effort to clean up the air since the Clean Air Act. When I was mayor of Los Angeles, the largest city in the state, I reduced greenhouse gases by 28 percent, below Kyoto levels, number one American city, number five in the world.
But we can't keep on putting these policies on the backs of working people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly.
VILLARAIGOSA: We have had this conversation, Elex, many times. We have the highest gas prices because we overregulate gas in this state.
And, yes, it's true the Iranian war has picked them up even further. But we need to have a balance, an all-of-the-above solution like Norway. Norway is one of the greenest countries in the world. And they produce their own oil and gas. That's how they green Norway.
COLLINS: Congresswoman Porter, I want to ask you about something that is a huge conversation in Washington. You have mentioned your whiteboard use that you were famous for when you served in Congress.
A recent poll found that 56 percent of likely California primary voters think the next governor should make investigating fraud in government programs a priority, a high priority. The secretary -- the president has named Vice President J.D. Vance as the nation's fraud czar.
As you know, he brings up California a lot and has made clear that he has set his sights on California. Do you believe that's a good thing?
PORTER: So we should all care where our tax dollars go, whether we're paying a low rate, like Tom, compared to the rest of us...
(LAUGHTER)
PORTER: ... or a rate that's higher. We all should want our tax dollars to go to work. I think Tom wants even his 13 percent, compared to our 20 percent, to go to work.
So fraud is real. It happens, government waste, mismanagement, failure to have audits, failure to implement government recommendations. That's why I chose to serve on the Oversight Committee and hold Democratic leadership and Republican leadership, Trump and Biden to account for those programs.
But there's nothing special about Californians. That is political theater coming from J.D. Vance. Fraud occurs because government leaders don't take -- think hard and design programs clearly to guard against fraud. It happens on both sides of the aisle, and it's going to take somebody who has a track record of protecting consumers and doing government oversight in order to change that.
COLLINS: Thank you, Congresswoman.
Sheriff Bianco, on the program itself and investigating fraud, and she's saying that it's political theater that is coming from the federal government.
BIANCO: It's only political theater if the fraud is happening and it happened on our watch.
And so the Democrats in California don't want anybody to believe that there's fraud in California. But yet our own state government has said that we are one of the most wasteful state governments in the entire country. The waste, fraud and the abuse in California government is the worst in the entire country. That comes from our own state government. If we are not going to root out the waste, fraud and abuse, all of their pie-in-the-sky policies, they certainly are not going to pay for them unless they tax you more, which is -- that's all we're hearing from them is what you started in the very beginning about how bad California is. And we aren't talking about the policies that are going to fix it, because it's their policies that broke it.
We have talked about them arguing about Mr. Becerra and about Trump ruining everything. But the reality is, it is...
MICHAELSON: Thank you.
BIANCO: ... Democrat policies in California that have failed us in every question you've asked that --
MICHAELSON: Thank you.
BIANCO: -- we haven't answered.
MICHAELSON: Mayor Villaraigosa, this next question is for you.
[22:45:15]
In 2008, California voters voted for a high speed rail system from L.A. to San Francisco that was supposed to be done by 2020 and cost around $30 billion. It's now 2026. It's not even close to being done, and the estimated cost has ballooned to $230 billion.
Mayor, your opponent, Steve Hilton, says that on his first day in office, he would kill this project, quote, "stone dead". Would you?
VILLARAIGOSA: No, and let me just first speak about waste and fraud. I can acknowledge that there has been waste and fraud in this state.
KATIE PORTER (D), CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Has (INAUDIBLE)
VILLARAIGOSA: There was $250 million in just one hospice facility. We spent $24 billion on homelessness, and homelessness went up. Why would I support -- continue to support high speed rail?
Because when the Subway to the Sea was dead and I became mayor, I said I was going to bring in the best and the brightest from around the world. We did. And then I got the federal government to approve it. And that subway is going to get built.
We've had incompetence. Maybe fraud, but for sure, we've made mistakes with respect to this. As governor, I will do what I did as mayor, build more transportation than anybody in the United States of America.
MICHAELSON: Mr. Hilton?
HILTON: So high speed rail is an example of the fraud. They've spent billions of dollars. I don't know where the money has gone. It certainly hasn't gone into building anything that actually works. And I just want to make one broader point about fraud. I'm actually running this race in a different way than we've seen before. I've put together a team to run with me for other statewide offices, and along with my running mate, the state comptroller, Herb Morgan, and Michael Gates for attorney general, and Gloria Romero for lieutenant governor. We've actually been investigating the fraud.
Our surveys so far suggest that there -- in the last five years in California, we've had $425 billion of fraud. That's around $80 billion a year, around 20 percent of the budget.
MICHAELSON: Thank you, sir.
HILTON: And our team is going to stop it and prosecute it and give money back --
(CROSSTALK)
MAHAN: Elex, if I could just chime in on this.
MICHAELSON: Real quickly, Mayor.
MAHAN: Yeah. Well, first of all, election denial certainly is running a campaign in a different way.
But look, on high speed rail, it shouldn't cost us more to get to Modesto than its cost us to get to the moon. And it's not either/or. The answer is accountability.
We are spending billions of dollars before we ever put a shovel in the ground, paying consultants and lawyers for endless bureaucracy. As governor, I will demand fundamental reform, a sais quoi (ph) of all of the rules, the environmental laws, the litigation around these projects so that we get to building faster.
It goes back to your climate point as well.
MICHAELSON: Yeah.
MAHAN: We can't modernize our grid if we can't build.
MICHAELSON: Thank you, sir.
Congresswoman Porter, this question to you. Let's talk about one of the biggest industries here in California -- Hollywood. Film production has been leaving Hollywood for years. The state recently expanded the film tax credit to $750 million in an effort to bring those productions back.
Some of your opponents here on stage think that tax credit should be unlimited. Do you?
KATIE PORTER (D), CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Yes. I think we need to be competitive in California. I see a lot of people who've been in office 30 years in California, been in different elected positions on this stage, and they're patting themselves on the back when we didn't acknowledge that we are in a competition in California. It's much more expensive and much more difficult to bring any industry back than it is to hang on to it in the first place.
So, California's in competition. It's a competition we can and must win. We have the most talented workforce. We have the best higher education system, but we do have to have competitive policies.
MICHAELSON: Mayor Villaraigosa?
VILLARAIGOSA: You know, when I was mayor of Los Angeles, I'd walk down a red carpet and I'd say the following, that the jobs behind the camera are more important than the people in front. Two hundred thousand jobs we had, and we've lost them.
This election is an existential election for Hollywood. So yes, we do need an unlimited uncapped tax credit, one. Two, it needs to be above and below the line.
The notion --
MICHAELSON: Yeah.
VILLARAIGOSA: -- too many people in Sacramento believe, it should just go to camera operators --
MICHAELSON: Yeah.
VILLARAIGOSA: -- and, you know, make up people. It has to go to everyone.
MICHAELSON: That's time, sir.
VILLARAIGOSA: So that's what I'll do when I'm governor.
MICHAELSON: Thank you.
All right. While were on the topic of Hollywood, let's give the voters a chance to get to know you all a little bit.
This is a rapid fire question. You know, we've done this stuff in the past. It's for each of you.
Which actor would you want to play you in a movie about your life?
I'm going to each of you think of which actor would play you in a movie about your life.
Mayor Mahan, starting with you.
[22:50:06]
MAHAN: Oh, boy. You're going to have to come back to me.
I don't know.
UNIDENTIFIFIED MALE: I got one. MAHAN: Russell Crowe in "The Gladiator". How's that?
MICHAELSON: Okay.
Xavier Becerra?
BECERRA: Antonio Banderas.
MICHAELSON: Okay, Sheriff?
BIANCO: I have no idea.
MICHAELSON: Tom Selleck?
BIANCO: Yeah, I guess that would be a good one. Clint Eastwood.
MICHAELSON: Okay.
Mr. Hilton?
HILTON: I think there's only one choice, really. Jason Statham.
MICHAELSON: Okay, Mr. Steyer?
TOM STEYER (D), CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Gregory Peck.
MICHAELSON: Gregory Peck. Okay, the -- coming back, I guess, to do that.
Congresswoman Porter?
PORTER: Tina Fey.
MICHAELSON: All right.
Mr. Mayor?
VILLARAIGOSA: At the Hollywood event when I was mayor, Antonio Banderas said he wanted to play me. So I -- I said yes, so I got to go with Antonio.
MICHAELSON: We're getting Antonio Banderas lots of work doing this tonight, or at least increasing his job out of this.
We'll be back with more of the California governor debate right here on CNN.
[22:51:07]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:55:15]
COLLINS: And welcome back to the California governor primary debate.
It is no secret to anyone on this stage tonight that this race has a very crowded field. And there are a lot of voters that are undecided, and many of them might be having some trouble distinguishing you from one another, seeing what sets you, each of you, apart in your campaigns.
And so we want to give you an opportunity to tell us one characteristic that sets you apart from everyone else on stage here tonight.
You have 30 seconds each.
Mayor Villaraigosa, I'll start with you.
VILLARAIGOSA: When I make a mistake, I'm accountable. I'm willing to say I made a mistake. When I have to take on my friends because there's a big, tough issue, I'm willing to do it. I think character matters, and I have the character to be governor of this state.
I'm willing to take on my friends. It's easy to take on your opponents, but when you can take on your friends in a crisis, that's the measure of a man or woman.
COLLINS: Congresswoman?
PORTER: I have shown time and time again that I am willing to push for politics to be better, for government to be better. I'm the only candidate on this stage that refuses corporate donations. That's something that a year after year, election after election, Californians say they're tired of having candidates who are beholden to their donors rather than fighting for them.
We have to live our values in California and elect someone who will only focus on the future of California, not on giving away campaign favors.
COLLINS: Mr. Steyer?
STEYER: This is a simple campaign because corporations are driving up the cost for working Californians to place where they can't afford it, and I'm the person taking on the corporate special interests. I've beaten them in the past three times, and they are spending millions -- tens of millions of dollars against me.
That's how you know that I'm the person who wants to change things, because they're spending tens of millions of dollars against me. Working people are supporting me. Environmentalists are supporting me. Progressives are supporting me.
I'm the change agent on this stage.
COLLINS: And, Mr. Hilton, what's the characteristic that defines you from the rest of the stage?
HILTON: Well, if you ask my wife and my sons, often to their great embarrassment, it's that I absolutely hate bureaucracy and ridiculous, pointless rules and regulations that crush the life out of people and businesses and daily experience that we have. And so, I just want to tell everyone I'm going to be relentless, absolutely relentless in fighting the nonsense that makes life so difficult for each and every one of you. I will not rest until we restore sanity to our beautiful state of California.
COLLINS: Sheriff Bianco?
BIANCO: Yeah. I'm the only one on this stage that has 33 years of proven public service. The decisions that I make have life and death consequences. And those decisions are made on a daily basis. And I'm the only one that makes those.
I'm also the only one on this stage that is working every single day with the consequences of the failed policies of everyone else on this stage. And the difference is, I'm not one of them.
COLLINS: Secretary Becerra, what's your characteristic?
BECERRA: I think the fact that I have the experience to take on the toughest challenges, whether it's Donald Trump in his first term or whether it was COVID, something we've not experienced in our lifetime. I've been able to prove that I can balance a budget bigger than the budget of the state of California. I've proven that I know how to tackle a national state of emergency, because I've had to do that in the past as secretary of health and human services.
And I proved that I can fight. But more importantly, I can win.
And so when someone goes into that governor's office, they're going to have to take a chair and there won't -- will not be training wheels there for them. You have to deliver. And I have a proven record of delivering results. I don't just make inflated promises.
COLLINS: Mayor Mahan?
MAHAN: I'm relentless about delivering results in people's lives. I started my career as a public school teacher in East Side San Jose and fought every day to get each of my students on grade level.
As mayor, when the bureaucracy and the establishment pushed back against solutions that would get people into treatment, or thought that it was okay to spend $1 million a door and make people wait out in tent encampments to come indoors. I fought against that. When people said we couldn't build housing, I fought to speed up permitting and reduce fees, and now we have homes under construction.
I'll fight every day to make life better for Californians.
COLLINS: Thank you, Mayor Mahan.
Thank you to all the candidates for joining us here tonight for CNN's California governor primary debate.
Thank you to Elex Michaelson and to our whole team.
And also, a special thank you to our host, East Los Angeles College.
MICHAELSON: And thanks to everybody for watching. We encourage you to get out there and vote.
There's a lot to break down. A lot just happened.
So if your heads spinning, Abby Phillip and her team at "NEWSNIGHT" is going to help break it all down.
Stay with us right here on CNN.
