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The Situation Room

Is Shoot-to-Kill Proper Policy?; New Al Qaeda Video; Tennessee Escape Details; Montana Wildfire; Yankee Fan Leaps onto Netting; Norht Korean Society; Iran Warnings; "Sweet Neo-Con"

Aired August 10, 2005 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: It's 5:00 p.m. in Washington. And you're in the SITUATION ROOM where news and information from around the world arrive in one place simultaneously.
On these screens behind me, we're getting live feeds coming in from ITV in Britain. We're watching there. NTV watching in Germany, watching what's happening there. CNN Turk in Turkey. Channel 2, Israeli television. We're watching what's happening there. These are live pictures coming in from around the world.

We're also watching data feeds coming in from CNN.com, the Wall Street Journal.com, Reuters.com, all crossing in in realtime. And we're watching that.

Happening right now, a disturbing new video purportedly made by al Qaeda. Is it a taunt, or an outright threat by Osama bin Laden's followers?

Still on the run, it's 5:00 p.m. in Kingston, Tennessee where authorities are on a bloody trail of an escaped prisoner and his wife. But are they any closer to putting them behind bars?

And you may have felt like jumping from the stands during a baseball game. But why did one fan actually take a 40-foot plunge? It's 5:00 p.m. in New York City and many die-hard Yankee fans want answers. And they want them soon.

I'm Wolf Blitzer. And you're in the SITUATION ROOM.

Up front, there are some very disturbing images in a new propaganda tape allegedly from al Qaeda, including personal effects from a U.S. Navy SEAL Killed in combat. We have the tape here in the SITUATION ROOM. CNN's Zain Vergee standing by at the CNN center to show it to all of us. Barbara Starr has some late-breaking details from the Pentagon. Our Terrorism analyst Peter Bergen is standing by to tell us what this tape means.

Let's start with Zain. Zain, what do you have?

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, we've seen video propaganda from al Qaeda before, but this is something new. It's a slick tape, likely meant for distribution.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) VERJEE (voice-over): A disturbing sight. The Pentagon confirms to CNN that this is the photo I.D. of U.S. Navy SEAL Danny Dietz, killed in an ambush in Afghanistan. He went missing on June 28. His body was recovered on the 4th of July.

It's part of a highly produced propaganda film allegedly from al Qaeda called "The War of the Oppressed People." Subtitled in Arabic, this video claims to show jihadis of different nationalities training for terror in a mountainous area.

In parts of the two hour program, the alleged militants show off their weapons, including surface-to-air missiles and what could be bomb-making materials. The film, also contains interviews and anti- western diatribes not only in Arabic -- but in French and English, as well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our people of the west, don't be fooled by the lies of Blair and Bush that you are free nations. For the only freedom you have is the freedom to be slaves of your whims and desires.

VERJEE: The production first aired on the Arab network al Arabiya, which wouldn't say how or where it was obtained.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE: And Wolf, we really want to emphasize that this tape has not been authenticated. And it's not even clear if any or all of the people shown in it are actually al Qaeda members.

BLITZER: All right. CNN's Zain Vergee. We'll check back with you. Thank you very much.

So, what does the U.S. military -- what is the Pentagon saying about this video? Let's go live to our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr -- Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well Wolf, officially the Pentagon is saying absolutely nothing. But behind the scenes, we have spoken to some U.S. Navy officials and here's what they tell us.

That identification card they say they have every reason to believe that is the I.D. card of Danny Dietz, one of the U.S. Navy SEALs killed in eastern Afghanistan in June. The tape also shows an M-4 carbine, that is the type of weapon that U.S. Navy SEALs would carry into the mountains of eastern Afghanistan on the type of very secret reconnaissance mission those SEALs were on.

The tape, Wolf, also shows a laptop computer. The Navy officials we spoke to said they cannot confirm that that is a Navy laptop computer. They simply don't know by looking at the tape, but they do tell us that Navy SEALs do carry those types of laptops on these types of reconnaissance missions. They use them to get key data that they need to conduct those missions, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Barbara Starr at the Pentagon. Thank you very much, Barbara, for that.

So, what will could al Qaeda gain by releasing a tape like this? And will it bring in new recruits? For some answers, let's bring in our terrorism analyst Peter Bergen. What do you make of this tape, Peter?

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well A, it's quite professionally produced. B, it appears -- and we have said we're not authenticating it as an al Qaeda videotape, but in my judgment, it looks like the real thing.

It is -- it looks like it might have been shot in the northwest frontier province up, the Navy SEALs went down in Kunar Province, so those attacks happened in the Kunar Province, which is up towards the north, over the border is Chitral in Pakistan. The kind of vegetation and the kind of geography we're seeing in the tape looks like it would be in that area.

Why would they release this tape? I mean, it's obviously -- it's a propaganda coup for them. You know, we've had a long history of al Qaeda releasing videotapes. Before 9/11, they released a very long videotape. They have had a, you know, a propaganda dimension from the very beginning.

BLITZER: Peter, the fact that it was released by al Arabiya as opposed to al Jazeera, what, if anything does that mean.

BERGEN: Well, I think that they're mixing things up a little bit. You know, Arabiya has the reputation of being slightly more conservative news channel in the Arab world. It's a newer channel. There are others -- there's Abu Dhabi Television -- and we've seen that these groups -- al Qaeda itself, while they will have generally preferred al Jazeera, they've mixed things up and they've sent tapes to different channels, maybe for security reasons, maybe just happenstance.

BLITZER: Peter Bergen giving us some assessment. Thank you, Peter, very much.

Let's move to a developing story right here at home. A massive manhunt, a search in Tennessee and beyond for a fugitive couple who police say staged a daring and deadly escape yesterday. Our national correspondent Bob Franken joining us once again from Kingston, Tennessee with the latest -- Bob.

Unfortunately, I think -- I think we're having some problems with getting Bob Franken up live. Let's try to reconnect with Bob Franken. We'll get to Kingston, Tennessee in a moment.

But let's check in -- each hour we check in here in the SITUATION ROOM with our Jack Cafferty to give our viewers a chance to weigh in on some of the big stories of the hour of the day. What is the question this hour, Jack?

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: U.S. Capitol Police, Wolf, are under new orders now to shoot to kill. And that means they'll shoot a suspect in the head if they believe that he's a suicide bomber. The reasoning for that is pretty obvious, if a terrorist has a bomb strapped to his body, shooting him in the torso might set off the bomb.

Critics say authorities should learn to identify suicide bombers better, and disarm them without killing them. That's probably easier said than done. They point to what happened in the London subway last month when British police under shoot to kill orders, shot an innocent Brazilian man in the head in the subway.

So the question this hour is this, "is shoot-to-kill a good policy for suspected terrorists?" You can e-mail us at caffertyfile@CNN.com.

The other question of the hour is "what is that annoying music that they're playing under me when I read this stuff?"

BLITZER: It's not that annoying. I sort of like it, Jack.

CAFFERTY: You do?

BLITZER: It's got a good beat.

CAFFERTY: What is the name of that song?

BLITZER: I don't know the name of it. But it's got a good beat. It's easy to dance to. And you know what, Jack, you and our viewers, all of us, get used to it.

CAFFERTY: It's annoying.

BLITZER: All right. Never mind.

Let's go back once again to CNN's Bob Franken. I think we've reestablished communications with Bob. Give us an update, Bob, on this very disturbing manhunt underway for this couple that escaped yesterday shooting a guard allegedly in the process.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's literally here, there and everywhere. They're not living any stones unturned here. They're focusing on this area, mainly because the woman in this, Jennifer Hyatte, was shot apparently in the fusillade of bullets that accompanied her shooting a prison guard when she helped her husband George Hyatte escape. So, there is a possibility, they believe, that they may not have gone very far, particularly since her husband, the prisoner, was in shackles.

Nevertheless, they're searching everywhere, literally, around the country. And they're talking to anybody who might have ever known the couple as they try and untangle this terrible tragedy that happened at a courthouse here in Kingston, Tennessee.

BLITZER: All right. Bob Franken, we're going to check back with you. This is a story that's been changing almost hour by hour. And we want to bring you the latest on the investigation here in the SITUATION ROOM. For that, we're joined once again by Jennifer Johnson, she's a spokeswoman for the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation.

I suspect you're getting lots of tips, Jennifer. How's the situation looking right now?

JENNIFER JOHNSON, TBI SPOKESWOMAN: Well, I would say that we're being bombarded with tips. We're getting anywhere from 25 to 30 tips per hour. We are managing those from a mobile command post. It's just on the other side of the parking lot. We're also fielding calls at our bureau in Nashville. And just trying to really sort through all those on a case by case basis.

We are not leaving any of these tips unmanned. Every single one is being followed up on, and we do appreciate all of the help that's being provided. All the media coverage has generated a lot of buzz and people are really calling.

BLITZER: We know the husband had lots and lots of problems and that's why he was serving a long prison sentence, but the wife Jennifer Hyatte, did she have any record at all, based on what you know?

JOHNSON: To our knowledge, she has no criminal record, which makes it perplexing to a lot of people about exactly why this happened.

BLITZER: And right now, the best thing the public can do is keep their eyes open, their ears open and report directly back to you any information, anything suspicious that they might get?

JOHNSON: Exactly. We're asking people not only here in Tennessee, but all over the country to just be vigilant and to call that 1-800-TBI-FIND number. That is really the clearinghouse that we're using for all of these tips.

One thing I have been mentioning to people is if they see them convenience food store or somewhere in close contact, don't try to approach them and don't call that number. Just dial 9-1-1 and try to get your local law enforcement involved.

BLITZER: Good advice from Jennifer Johnson, spokeswoman for the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. Good luck to you, Jennifer. Good luck to everyone on this manhunt. Thanks very much.

Coming up here in THE SITUATION ROOM: Police under orders to shoot to kill. When is it appropriate in the post 9-11 world?

A warning to Iran: Stand down from your nuclear program or pay a price. Will Iran blink?

And an enormous blaze in Montana, under way. We'll get the latest on the danger, from officials on the scene.

You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: Fires are burning along Interstate 90, near Missoula, Montana. They now total 4700 acres. This combined blaze ranks as the nation's second biggest. The largest wild fire right now, is burning in southeastern Washington state.

The fire covers 41,000 acres and is less than half contained. Michelle Finch is with the Pacific-Northwest Incident Management Team. She's on the phone and she's joining us now live from Pomeroy, Washington. How bad is it, Michelle?

MICHELLE FINCH, PACIFIC-NORTHWEST INCIDENT MGMT.: Well, it's -- this fire is still cranking pretty good. We're getting westerly winds, which is the opposite of what we would hope to be getting, but the fire -- we've got plenty of resources assigned.

Over 1600 people are assigned to this fire. So, we're today putting structure protection in place around cabins and residences that are in the -- in front of this fire and would have loved to have had another day to spend more time on structure protection, but those crews are really working hard to lay line and do what they can to protect.

BLITZER: Does it appear to be getting worse or are you making progress.

FINCH: Well, with 35 percent containment, that's good. I mean, in the rough terrain that we're working in -- steep terrain, flashy fuels, you know, this is -- with the resources we have assigned, we're going to be here for a while. It's not going to get put out tomorrow, but you know, if we can -- if Mother Nature would step in, it sure would be a good thing. We could use some humidity and some wet weather. But --

BLITZER: Does it look like that's likely? What do the meteorologists say?

FINCH: No. There is a low pressure that came in. There's a little bit of a cooling trend. We're talking five degrees. So, it doesn't look, at least in the immediate future, like things are changing in the weather department.

BLITZER: All right. Michelle Finch, good luck to you. Good luck to all the folks, the firefighters dealing with this problem out there.

In our CNN "Security Watch:" In today's climate of terrorist threats, police may be forced to make a split-second decision when confronted by a suspected suicide bomber. If and when should they shoot to kill? CNN's Kelli Arena, from CNN's America Bureau, is joining us now with more on this story. This is a difficult story, Kelli.

KELLI ARENA, CNN AMERICA BUREAU: It is and Wolf, it's a very complicated decision and a policy that most police forces around the nation have not chosen to embrace, but here in Washington, the U.S. Capitol, police say the risk is simply too high not to. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA (voice-over): Capitol Hill police thought this man could be a suicide bomber. He had rolled two suitcases toward the U.S. capital and refused to respond to police questioning.

CHIEF TERRANCE GAINER, CAPITOL POLICE DEPARTMENT: We spent about 40 minutes either in conversation with that individual or eyeballing him.

ARENA: Chief Gainer says he decided the man wasn't dangerous, but as a precaution, detonated his suit cases. The incident ended peacefully, but if he had been carrying a bomb, Capitol police would have had the OK to shoot the suspect in the head.

GAINER: We have to train and prepare for it, because a lot of us think it is inevitable. This is an area where people are still free to ride a bike, carry a backpack and walk up to our doors.

ARENA: The Capitol police is the only U.S. force with a shoot- to-kill policy, but the International Association of Chiefs of Police, which represents police department heads worldwide, suggests it may be the only answer to dealing with suicide bombers.

CHIEF JOSEPH ESTEY, INTL. ASSN. OF POLICE CHIEFS: It's a disabling shot that is going to create the least possibility that a device is going to be triggered.

ARENA: Even though there hasn't been a suicide bombing in the United States and no intelligence to suggest there will be, the FBI and Homeland Security have warned police to prepare for the possibility. But the shooting of an innocent man in Britain, who police thought was a suicide bomber, gives many like Miami Police Chief John Timoney, pause.

CHIEF JOHN TIMONEY, MIAMI POLICE: To prematurely advocate or write up a policy like that, would bring, I think, a lot of hoots and howls and outcries from the ACLU, from certain Muslim groups.

ARENA: What's more, Timoney isn't sure how practical a shoot-to- kill policy would be.

TIMONEY: We train to shoot at the torso, the center mass as we say. We shoot to stop an individual. We train very hard: Twice a year in most police departments. And even with all of that, our hit percentage is around 20 percent.

ARENA: Still, Timoney knows that he needs to be realistic. His and other departments have reached out to Israeli officials for their expertise in dealing with suicide bombers.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA: Now, the Israelis do have a shoot-to-kill policy that is widely accepted by its citizens, but that country, of course, has been the target of many suicide attacks and officials here argue that if the United States were to see a suicide attack on U.S. soil, that many police forces around the country would do exactly what the U.S. Capitol police have done and adopt a shoot-to-kill policy, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. A controversial policy that everyone is going to be taking a much closer look at in the weeks and months to come. Kelli Arena, of our America Bureau, thank you very much.

To our viewers: Remember to stay with CNN for the most reliable news about your security. Right now, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM. Coming up, the event shouldn't have been just a ball game. But things got really eventful when one fan apparently decided to take a jump for joy. We'll tell you what happened.

And Iran's nuclear program: officials there making new moves right now and putting out a harsh new warning to the west.

And he's known for controversy, but you won't believe what Mick Jagger is singing about right now. You're in the SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: In New York today, first a ball game, then a hospital stay, then an arrest and just last hour, a court appearance. So why is one New York Yankee fan seeing so many venues over the past 24 hours alone? For the answers, let's turn to Mary Snow, she's standing outside Yankee Stadium in the Bronx -- Mary.

MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Wolf, it reportedly started out as a dare. An 18-year-old fan jumped out of the stands. He's landed in some very hot water. He's in court at this hour. Fans say he's lucky he wasn't seriously hurt, or that he didn't hurt someone else.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW (voice-over): It was the eighth inning when the Yankees/White Sox came to a screeching halt. 18-year-old Scott Harper plunged 40 feet from the upper deck landing on the net behind home plate. He was yanked into custody and charged with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct. Yankees fans are not amused.

JOE LAKIS, YANKEE FAN: It should have never have been done. And there certainly should be some type of penalty for it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These young kids get out of hand. They doesn't know what they're doing, usually because they've had too many beers to drink.

SNOW: Police would not comment on whether alcohol was a factor. In the past, alcohol has been a factor at sports events involving rowdy fans. Several people were arrested in Detroit following a melee at a Pacers/Pistons game in December. In 2002, a father and son were arrested for tackling the first base coach at the Kansas city Royals.

Those who study sports trends for a living say alcohol is a problem. But some say fans might also get out of hand because they have a false sense of closeness with the celebrity players.

KENNETH SHROPSHIR, WHARTON SPORTS BUSINESS INITIATIVE: Certainly in some ways, there is some feeling that this is a way for me to be a celebrity as well. If nothing else, I then become a part of the celebrity's life. I think that's certainly a part of what we now endure in the celebrity culture.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: Now, the Bronx district attorney says that the teen is waiting to be arraigned momentarily. The D.A.'s office saying that he faces charges of reckless endangerment, criminal mischief and criminal trespass. All of these are misdemeanors, and the d.a.'s office says they're punishable, if guilty, by up to a year prison -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Mary, so the Yankees played another game today. Any more jumpers?

SNOW: No, the game went well today. No big incidents except that the Yankees did lose to the Chicago White Sox.

BLITZER: All right. If you're a Yankees fan, too bad. Thanks very much. Mary Snow outside Yankee Stadium. I hope she got to see some of the game while she was there.

It's Wednesday, August 10. And coming up here in the SITUATION ROOM: pop and politics, a famous rocker rocks supporters of President Bush. So what's Mick Jagger singing about right now?

And don't forget, former President Bill Clinton tomorrow is my guest to talk about the battle against AIDS in Africa. We'll also talk, of course, about politics, including his wife's campaign.

You're in the SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Were some of the 9/11 hijackers identified by U.S. intelligence long before they struck? We first told you about the story yesterday. Today it's generating lots of fallout. Let's get the latest. Our national security correspondent David Ensor from the CNN America bureau joining us here live -- David.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, members of the 9/11 commission are complaining they were not told a Defense Department intelligence unit connected with the special operations command in Florida knew about Mohammed Atta and three others of the 9/11 hijackers a year before the attacks.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): This chart made last year shows the connections identified by the unit which in 2000 feared Atta and three others could be a terrorist threat after conducting a data mining program using open sources code named "able danger." That, according to a former defense intelligence official, and Republican Congressman Curt Weldon who says Clinton administration lawyers told the unit not to give the information to the FBI.

REP. CURT WELDON, (R) PENNSYLVANIA: Lawyers within the administration told the special forces folks three times, you cannot share this information with the FBI. They even put stickies over the top of the faces of Mohammed Atta saying they're here legally, they have green cards, you can't give anything to the FBI.

ENSOR: The former Defense Intelligence official who declines to give his name, but says he's a CIA-trained case officer, insists to CNN that the 9/11 commission staff director was told about the evidence on Atta, that he was told about it in a briefing in October 2003. Former officials of the commission say that is not true.

At the Pentagon, they're scrambling to find out more.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I understand that our folks are trying to look into it and see what they can find out for you.

ENSOR: "I think this is a big deal," former 9/11 commissioner John Lehman told the New York Times. "The issue is whether there was, in fact, surveillance before 9/11 of Atta. And if so, why weren't we told about it? Who made the decision not to brief the commission's staff or the commissioners?"

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: Officials point out that even if the assertions are true, the rules have changed since 9-11. These days, if a Pentagon intelligence unit knew something about possible terrorists who might be in the United States, that information would go straight to the FBI -- Wolf?

BLITZER: All right. David Ensor, very disturbing. Thank you very much, David. I think lots of questions are still going to have to be answered.

ENSOR: That's right.

BLITZER: Iran meanwhile, is raising the stakes in the dispute over its nuclear program. Today, it removed the seals placed by U.N. inspectors at its nuclear reprocessing facility and its warning the West to back off or pay a price at the gas pump.

Our senior international correspondent, Walter Rodgers, reports from Vienna, Austria, home of the International Atomic Energy Agency.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): CNN has learned the Iranians have privately warned Western diplomats that if there is any confrontation over Iran's restarted nuclear energy program, the West is going to face even higher oil prices.

What one Western diplomat in the discussions called a thinly veiled threat, came from this man Cyrus Naseri, Iran's chief delegate to the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna. Naseri told the IAEA quote, "Iran is a major oil and gas producer and is determined to become a major player in nuclear energy." According to these same source, later he told CNN...

CYRUS NASERI, IRANIAN DELEGATION TO HEAD IAEA: I really would consider that it would be best for you to think twice before moving towards any action that would be deemed to be coercive, because that would be a course of action that would end to a situation where everybody would lose.

RODGERS: The Iranian warning of even higher oil prices came one day before the seals were removed on the Iranian nuclear installation at Isfahan, where a disputed fuel conversion process was restarted. IAEA officials, however, continue to down-play any air of crisis with diplomatic words.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are able now to move from monitoring a frozen facility, to conducting inspections on an activated facility.

RODGERS: Iran also played the Iraq card: Privately suggesting it could be cooperative and helpful with the West's woes in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria, but a diplomatic source told CNN the Iranians are also implicitly hinting they could make trouble there if there's any confrontation over Iran's nuclear energy program.

At the IAEA meeting, diplomats are said to be sharply divided over how to deal with Iran, with France, Germany and Britain leaning toward taking Iran to the U.N. Security Council with a threat of sanctions.

Sources now say the U.S., Canada, Australia and New Zealand are inclined toward tough sanctions. Privately however, diplomats from the non-aligned countries are disinclined toward a confrontation with Iran and leaning toward giving Tehran one more chance to suspend its controversial nuclear energy program. IAEA officials say restarting the Isfahan plant is worrisome, but only in a limited more long-range way.

MARK GWOZDECKY, IAEA SPOKESMAN: This facility is a facility that creates feed material, which might eventually be used in another facility to enrich uranium.

RODGERS (on camera): That other Iranian facility is at Natanz, which is a nuclear enrichment installation that officials say could quickly produce weapons-grade uranium. To date however, the Iranians have shown no inclination to remove the seals there.

Walter Rodgers, CNN, Vienna.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Coming up: A computer-generated headache. How do you feel about spam? Steamed enough to declare war? We're monitoring the situation on-line. We'll explain.

And former President Bill Clinton ready to brief us here IN THE SITUATION ROOM, but is he ready to be the first husband? We'll talk about politics much more with him tomorrow.

Just ahead though: Mick Jagger apparently can't get no satisfaction when it comes to the Bush administration. Jagger speaking out on the Rolling Stones versus the White House.

You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Time again to check the bottom line on money matters that affect all of our lives. As always, Ali Velshi is at his post in New York monitoring that. Ali, what's happening right now? I think the price of oil...

ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

BLITZER: ... is something that's certainly on all of our minds.

VELSHI: It is. We closed oil trading in New York at $63 -- $64.95 today, which is, as you know, another all time high. Now, I was listening to your conversation with Walter Rodgers. We've been checking in with analysts about the impact of what Iran has been sort of suggesting on the price of oil and here's what we're hearing: That the price of oil today at $64.95 is not about Iran.

It's about supply and demand and some of the refinery problems we've got in the United States and increased demand in China and India and the U.S. It's -- oil prices have been going up, but Iran produces so much oil, one analyst we spoke to says that even if they just pulled 500,000 barrels a day out of what they -- out of the 4 million barrels that they provide, that can push the price of oil up high enough that Iran can actually make as much money or more off of selling 500,000 fewer barrels a day, than if they just didn't pull anything off the market.

The saber rattling alone can have the effect of raising the price of oil, not enough to really cause a problem in the world, but enough to cause oil prices to go up further. That again, of course, Wolf, even though it's not the only thing that affects the price of gasoline, always has an impact on the price of gasoline.

So, between the fact that we've got lower gas inventories in the United States than we thought we had, the fact that our refineries are not at full strength right now, we're in the middle of summer driving season, oil continues to go up and Iran is now making noises about maybe pulling some of their capacity off-line. Again, the indication is -- what I'm trying to find out is, is there anybody who thinks gas prices are going down anytime soon? And all of the evidence says no for the time being, Wolf.

BLITZER: But Ali, isn't it -- doesn't it make sense that for the Iranians to even make a little threat, if they assume that's going to raise the price per barrel, that's more money for them?

VELSHI: Yes. Well, that's exactly the point. It's a little bit of math here. They've got to make enough of a threat that it does continue to pull the price up without compromising themselves by cutting off that income because they're not selling the oil.

I mean, Iran gets 80 to 90 percent of its revenue from oil. They're not going to shut off selling oil. They can't. Their economy depends on it. But how much can you shut off to cause it to go up high enough to get a benefit?

And that -- if you're a big oil-producing country like Iran is, that's a tool at your disposal. We have to imagine and speculators have to wonder how much of that Iran will actually use, as opposed to just sort of saying it so they might get what they need.

That's a matter for speculators and that's exactly why oil trades the way it does on days like today. But whatever it is, whether it's that or demand, oil is once again at an all-time high, so are gasoline prices here in the United States.

BLITZER: All right. Ali Velshi reporting for us. Good work. Thanks very much.

Lou Dobbs getting ready for his program at the top of the hour. Lou, what are you working on?

LOU DOBBS, HOST, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT": Thank you, Wolf. At 6:00 p.m. Eastern on "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT," the insurgency in Iraq is gaining deadly momentum. The insurgents, killing more Americans this month than all of last month. We'll have a special report for you, and a massive mortgage fraud that's spreading all across the United States. Real estate agents are defrauding lenders and earning millions and millions of dollars in commissions.

Also, debating our origins. The state of Kansas has voted to put intelligent design on the public school curriculum. Is this the beginning of a national trend? We'll be exploring that. And a leading senator demanding an investigation of doctors and Wall Street in collusion on clinical drug trials. He's our guest here tonight. We hope you'll join us. All of that at the top of the hour.

Now back to you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Lou, I know you're going to have lost more on illegal immigration tonight. You've reported how critical this issue is for all the communities across the country. Now more and more politicians are taking notice a year before the midterm elections. What do you have for us tonight?

DOBBS: Well, Wolf, both Senator McCain and Senator Kennedy have said our broadcast has actually influenced the national agenda on the issue of illegal immigration. Tonight we're going to focus on steps that are being taken by the FDIC to actually encourage what has become fraud in many states in terms of providing mortgages to illegal aliens. It is a remarkable story and another example of a system that is completely a disaster when it comes to immigration policy and all that is occurring within this country.

I noticed today when you were talking with Ken Mehlman, the Republican speaking for the president, I have to compliment you on keeping a straight face as he said this president was committed to border security and the Border Patrol when this president came up with 200 Border Patrol agents in addition for this year when 3 million illegal aliens crossed our borders last year. It's a remarkable performance. It's going to be a very big issue, in my judgment, in next year's elections.

BLITZER: All right. We'll be watching Lou Dobbs setting the trend, as he often does. Appreciate it very much. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" coming up right at the top of the hour.

Here in THE SITUATION ROOM, we can bring you lots of information simultaneously. Here's what's incoming right now.

The Discovery astronauts, they're so happy. They've now been reunited with their families, their friends, their colleagues. You can see the excitement at the Johnson Space Center in Houston.

Fires are continuing to burn along Interstate 90 near Missoula, Montana. They now total 4,700 acres. This combined blaze with another one in Washington state ranking as a serious problem for everyone in that part of the country.

And President Bush is now back at his ranch in Texas after flying to Illinois earlier in the day to sign the Transportation Bill. Lots of people complaining though, too much pork in that Transportation Bill.

You're in THE SITUATION ROOM. Just ahead, the Rolling Stones. They're not going to be on this program. We'll have a report, though, on why they're raising eyebrows with a controversial new song. Are they bashing the president?

And tomorrow, my interview -- hopefully you won't want to miss it -- the former president, Bill Clinton. He's our guest.

You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Another CNN exclusive here in THE SITUATION ROOM. Our senior Asia correspondent, Mike Chinoy, is right now inside one of the world's most secretive and closed societies. That would be North Korea. He's joining us live on the phone from the capital, Pyongyang, with a rare look behind one of the last panels of the Iron Curtain.

Give us an update. We spoke with you 24 hours ago, Mike. Give us a sense what's going on in North Korea right now.

MIKE CHINOY, CNN SR. ASIA CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Wolf. Well, I'm actually not in Pyongyang at the moment. I'm about 80 miles northwest in the countryside. And I'm speaking to you on a cell phone, which is something of a first for North Korea. This is a country that strictly controls communications. In fact, when I flew in the other day, they confiscated my normal cell phone at the airport. But I've been able to get one here. This is one of a series of interesting -- small but interesting steps that the North Koreans are taking to cautiously -- ever so cautiously open up a little bit. They had a domestic cell phone network, which they basically shut down about a year ago because they were afraid that too many people would be in touch with each other in ways that might undermine the government's control. But foreigners are now able to get cell phones. I met a German businessman earlier in the day who's trying to get Internet access for foreigners in hotels in Pyongyang, also something of a first.

So interesting signs, the North Koreans trying to tinker with a very rigid and secretive system.

BLITZER: You've had another 24 hours to assess what's going on. You've been there more than a dozen times in the past, Mike. Give us a little bit more flavor how things, if at all, have changed this time as opposed to the past.

CHINOY: Well, as I said, being able to use a cell phone, possible access to the Internet is one interesting sign. Another interesting sign is, when you talk to people, it's still quite restricted. We have government guides with us everywhere, and we're not able to just walk up and chat with anybody. But the people that we have talked to have been surprisingly kind of friendly towards Americans. Of course, they parrot the government line. They don't like U.S. policies towards North Korea. But they really seem genuinely pleased to actually interact with an American and -- or expressing a desire for friendlier relations with the United States.

The ride to this mountainous area was very interesting. It was on a big well paved highway where we went for miles and miles without seeing another car. We were for a long time really the only car on the road. Occasionally we passed some vehicles that were broken down by the side of the road. But it's very interesting, no traffic and very little in the way of industry on the side of the road. But lots of people working in the fields. The North Koreans, of course, still face serious food shortages with the harvest come up in about six or eight weeks.

BLITZER: All right, CNN's Mike Chinoy with another exclusive. We'll check back with you 24 hours from now. Mike Chinoy in North Korea.

Here in THE SITUATION ROOM room, we're tracking virtually everything happening online. Only CNN has teams dedicated solely to cyberspace. Right now, we're talking spam. Mostly everyone gets it, but no one wants it. How can we prevent it? Our Internet reporters, Jacki Schechner, Abbi Tatton, they're standing by with the situation online.

And I just want to make sure. Explain, Jacki, spam to those of our viewers who don't know what it is.

JACKIE SCHECHNER, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Well, Spam is unwanted e-mail. Those are the junk e-mails that clutter up your inbox. That's exactly what spam is. We've all got it. ABBI TATTON, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: And a couple of Internet service providers are really trying to crack down on this problem this week. First of all, Microsoft in a settlement yesterday settled for $7 million with a former big-time spammer. AOL is trying something different -- AOL owned by CNN's parent company Time Warner, as well. They've been seizing the assets of one spammer after AOL users reported spam from this one spammer. They haven't released who it is. They went, tracked this person down, seized their assets and now they're getting rid of them online.

Look what you can get. You can get a Hummer or tens of thousands of dollars or gold bullion. Those actually assets seized from a spammer given away in a sweepstakes.

SCHECHNER: And one of the things we wanted to show you real quickly is in case you didn't want your e-mail to get lost in the spam folder, we went to lifehacker.com. I love this site. It's downloads and Web sites, ways to save time online. Those words that you shouldn't use if you don't want it to go to spam: enlarge, win, long distance, free, big bucks, click here and spam.

And Wolf, we'll send it back to you with that.

BLITZER: All right. We'll see you guys tomorrow. Good work. Thanks very much.

We're always eager to hear your views here in the SITUATION ROOM. CNN's Jack Cafferty has a different question each hour. He's joining us live from New York now with the "Cafferty File." Go ahead, Jack.

CAFFERTY: Yeah. If you go on the nation's capital, Wolf, this summer, be an alert. Like London police, U.S. Capitol police now under orders to shoot to kill, which means they will shoot a suspect in the head, not the torso, if they think he's a suicide bomber. The question this hour is, "is shoot to kill a good policy for suspected terrorists?" And here's what some of you have written in on that subject.

Tom writes this, "in this world of exploding vests, backpacks and tennis shoes, if I were a police officer confronting a suspected terrorist and had to fire my gun, it would be a head shot. And if that grenade turned out to a pear, well, that's the world we live in today."

Dave in Kissimmee, Florida, "any time a guy in uniform with a gun tells you to stop, and instead you run, you're either too stupid to breathe or you are guilty of something. Let's save the decade or two of appeals and court time, shoot to kill."

Daniel in Queens -- this is interesting, "The critics who keep citing the shooting of the Brazilian by the London police have their heads in the sand. This man was dressed in a heavy overcoat in summer, jumped the turnstile when the police attempted to stop him and continued to run from them. This is no argument against the shoot to kill implementation, it was not an irrational, or trigger happy response. It was logical." Bob writes, "shoot to kill is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Instead of putting switches on their bombs that explode when they push a button, terrorists will simply wire their bombs with dead man switches, which will explode when they stop pushing the button. Who comes up with these moronic policies?"

And final Stephen in Syosset writes, "Jack, for once I agree with you. It's an absolutely horrible day indeed when music like this is forced upon our ears, corrupting the joy that is the Cafferty File."

BLITZER: Steven of Syosset, New York is going to have to get used to it like all of our viewers. Thanks very much, Jack. I'll see you tomorrow. We'll talk about it tomorrow. Jack Cafferty with the "Cafferty File."

When we come back, rock and roll ruckus: Why some say the rolling stone are taking a swipe at President Bush on their new album. The controversial lyrics coming up. You're in the SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: You're looking at live pictures right now from Utah. A truck carrying more than 35,000 pounds of explosives rolled and exploded this afternoon, leaving a huge crater on Highway 6 in Spanish Fork Canyon. The canyon has been closed in both directions. No word yet on injuries. We'll watch this for you.

There's controversy swirling around the Rolling Stones upcoming new album which some say takes a direct swipe at the Bush administration. Zain Verjee is joining us now from the CNN center. She's got more -- Zain.

VERJEE: Wolf, the album hasn't even been released yet, but it's already getting a lot of attention because of one song in particular. Now Mick Jagger's addressing the controversy head-on.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE (voice-over): Still rocking in their 60s, still able to generate controversy and publicity, An upcoming album by the Rolling Stones includes a song called "Sweet Neo-Con," and it's not music to the ears of some in the Bush administration.

The song appears to be a not-so-veiled reference to President Bush and members of his cabinet who have been dubbed neoconservatives, like Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. The Stones' front man, Mick Jagger, says the song isn't aimed at any one person.

MICK JAGGER, ROLLING STONES: It's not an attack on President Bush. It wouldn't be called "Sweet Neo-Con" if it was about President Bush. No, I mean, it certainly criticizes policies he espouses.

VERJEE: One verse in particular is raising eyebrows, even hackles. The lyrics go, "you call yourself a Christian, I call you a hypocrite. You call yourself a patriot, I think you're full of..." well, I think you know what's there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE: Well Wolf, the song is not included in an advanced version of the CD that was sent out to the music critics. The entire album is due out next month.

BLITZER: You know, Zain, I've already got tickets for the next Rolling Stones here in Washington. They're going to be here in Washington, and they always sell out. I assume they will right now as well.

Zain Verjee, doing some good reporting for us. If you're going to be around, Zain, come on up to Washington.

VERJEE: I will.

BLITZER: You'll like the stones. They'll probably be in Atlanta, too. You'll probably be able to see them in Atlanta.

VERJEE: I will. I'll definitely go if I have the chance, if I can unchain myself from this desk.

BLITZER: Make some time. It's worth it.

Zain Verjee with us at the CNN center.

We're in the SITUATION ROOM every weekday afternoon from 3:00 to 6:00 pm Eastern. Join me once again tomorrow. Once again, my guest, the former president of the United States Bill Clinton. Until then, thanks very much for joining us. I'm Wolf Blitzer in the SITUATION ROOM. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starting right now. Lou is standing by in New York -- Lou.

END

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