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The Situation Room
Evacuation Proceeding Fairly Smoothly in Gaza; Criminal Charges Considered Against Ohio Governor; Sentencing Hearing Proceeds for BTK Killer; Trio of Car Bombings Kills Dozens in Baghdad; Intelligence on Terrorist Cell Involving Atta Known Before 9/11; U.S. Warned of Bin Laden A Decade Before 9/11; Robbery Arrests Turn into Terror Investigation; More Info Available on Computer Worm That Hit CNN; U.S./Mexico Border Emergency
Aired August 17, 2005 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer, and you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where news and information arrives at one place simultaneously. Standing by, CNN reporters across the United States and around the world to bring you the day's top stories. And they're happening right now.
It's 10:00 p.m. in Gaza. Screaming, crying or praying, Jewish settlers are dragged from their homes and synagogues. In the West Bank, a violent rampage draws vows of revenge.
In Baghdad, it's 11:00 p.m. Bombers striking a bus station, then in a hospital while the casualties arrive. Dozens of people are dead.
And it's 2:00 p.m. in Wichita, Kansas, where the BTK killer faces families of his victims as law officers recount his gruesome crimes.
You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
We begin with extraordinary images as history is made painfully in Gaza. Some are resisting. Some are walking out quietly. They're weeping. Others actually burning down their own houses in violent protest. One way or another, Jewish settlers are leaving Gaza.
CNN's John Vause is live for us at the largest settlement there, Neve Dekalim. He's joining us now live. John?
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this evacuation of the Gaza Strip is moving at an extraordinary pace. Already tonight we're told by the Israeli army and the Israeli police that 10 settlements have been evacuated and an eleventh, we are told a few hours ago, was in the final stages.
Here at Neve Dekalim they have stopped the evacuation of residents for the time being. But their concern right now is at the synagogue behind me.
The locals here say, the residents here say, there could be as many as 2,000 young Jewish teenagers holed up inside this synagogue right now. A lot of these teenagers are not from Neve Dekalim. They've managed to sneak into the Gaza Strip over the last couple of weeks. They're here to show support for the people of Neve Dekalim as well as the 21 other Jewish settlements.
Now, the police are saying they want these teenagers to leave quietly. They want them out of the -- out of the synagogue by 8:00 a.m. tomorrow morning. Otherwise they will use force to get them out -- although deadlines here seem to be very, very flexible, Wolf. What we have seen throughout the day, police using a combination of persuasion, sending in police women as well as rabbis, counselors, that kind of thing to try to talk the residents of this settlement into leaving quietly. When that doesn't work, that is when they send the police in. And that is when they're being carried out of their homes.
There have been some clashes with police and the settlers and also the protesters. There were thousands of infiltrators into the Gaza Strip over the last couple of weeks. But for the most part it has been a peaceful evacuation. It is very good news for the Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, Wolf.
BLITZER: John, it's illegal now for any Israeli citizen to be in Gaza. Those who are being carried out, who are leaving now, will they be charged with a crime?
VAUSE: We're looking at two different situations here, Wolf. The situation for the residents, the settlers. We're hearing from the police that they are one case. They'll be treated with respect, with sensitivity and with a great deal of delicacy.
Now, as far as the infiltrators are concerned, they're another group altogether. If they don't leave when they're asked to leave -- right now, they're saying if they leave quietly they won't be charged. However, if they don't, then they will face prosecution under Israeli law, Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, John Vause. We'll be checking back with you throughout these hours here in THE SITUATION ROOM. John, thank you very much.
Over in the West Bank, a bloody rampage. Police say a Jewish settler grabbed a gun from a guard and shot dead two Palestinians. He was about to drive home from work at a settlement, the settlement of Shiloh.
Police say he then ran into an industrial area, firing at Palestinian workers. One Palestinian was killed there. Two others wounded. The gunman was arrested.
The prime minister, Ariel Sharon, is calling it an act of -- quote -- "Jewish terror." The Palestinian group Hamas is vowing revenge, raising fears the violence over there could escalate.
There's a developing story we're following here in the United States, a story in Ohio. We're hearing that the governor of that state, Republican Bob Taft, is about to be hit with criminal charges that could possibly land him in jail if he's convicted. CNN's Mary Snow is joining us now live. She has more on the charges. What's going on, Mary? MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, we're expecting official word just around 3:30. And the Associated Press is reporting that prosecutors are poised to bring four criminal misdemeanor charges against Governor Bob Taft.
Now, this has to do with failing to disclose golf outings. This is something that the governor said was not intentional. He said he would take full responsibility.
Prosecutors have been meeting in the morning. They're expected to announce their decision.
This is significant because it would be the first Ohio governor to be charged with a crime. And if his name is familiar, he is the great grandson of President Taft. We'll have more as it develops.
BLITZER: All right. We'll check back with you at the bottom of the hour. Mary, thank you very much.
Another story we're following here in the United States would be in Kansas, where some 31 years after an admitted serial killer began his killing spree he's now facing angry reactions from his victims' families and finally a punishment. Right now a sentencing hearing is under way for the admitted BTK killer, Dennis Rader.
CNN's Jonathan Freed is joining us now live from Wichita with more. Jonathan?
JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, I had a seat in the courtroom this morning, and I can tell you that some of the most interesting and noteworthy things that went down in that room were not happening on camera. They were happening behind the scenes.
Before the court was called to order, Wolf, Steven Relford, who was the son of Shirley Vian, who was murdered by BTK in 1977, was really the only person standing in the room. He was standing by his seat with his eyes glaring on the doorway, where he knew that Dennis Rader was about to walk through and take his seat.
That happened, Wolf. Rader comes through the door, and Relford just pins his eyes on Rader trying to catch his eyes. Rader never looked his way, as far as I could see. Rader sat down.
Then the judge came in and instructed everybody to sit down. That was the only point that Relford -- he was forced to take his seat. But he was perched right on the edge of his seat with his hands on his knees, Wolf, and he had his eyes just fixed on Dennis Rader.
Now, during the proceeding today Wolf, as photographs of the victims of the various crime scenes were displayed, when the Otero family pictures were put up there, a number of the Otero family kids just broke down in tears.
We will have more later. Wolf? BLITZER: Jonathan Freed, when will we hear from Rader himself? When is he expected to make his appeal, if there is going to be an appeal?
FREED: Based on the way this thing is timing out, Wolf, that would happen tomorrow. He'll be given an opportunity. It's called allocution. It's not clear whether or not he's actually going to take advantage of that. We've been hearing some whispers from the defense that he might. We have to wait and see for that.
And tomorrow, based on how long it's taking today, would likely be when the family members would be able to make their victim impact statements, as well. Wolf?
BLITZER: We'll be checking back with you, Jonathan Freed, as well. Thank you very much.
Seven hundred U.S. soldiers from the 82nd Airborne Division at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, have just received deployment orders for Iraq. They're expected to be on the ground in about 30 days. Military officials are not saying how long they will stay.
Officials say the troops will provide security around the Abu Ghraib prison on the edge of Baghdad and also help with security for a new detention facility being opened next month northeast of the Iraqi capital.
Over in Iraq itself even by Baghdad's bloody standards it's been another devastating day in the Iraqi capital. Dozens of people are dead, many more are wounded, in three carefully coordinated bombings.
CNN's Aneesh Raman is live in Baghdad. He's joining us now. Aneesh?
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, a week dominated by talk of a constitution, now focused on an attack that left 43 people dead and wounded upwards of 90 others.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RAMAN (voice-over): On mornings like this, the politics of Iraq seem irrelevant. A trio of car bombs detonating within minutes of each other in central Baghdad.
The first two at the al-Nahda bus terminal, one of the busiest in the capital. The explosions killed dozens, wounded scores of others.
Moments later, another bomb, this one at the al-Kindi Hospital as casualties from the first explosion were being brought in. A coordinated attack and one of the biggest in Iraq in weeks.
The pain unbearable. The anger understandable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We want our voices heard by the president and every official to tackle such violence. All those who were killed are innocent people. There were no Americans, no Iraqi troops on the scene.
RAMAN: This is reality for Iraqi civilians, waking some days to carnage; on most others facing a continued lack in basic services. There is work being done, reconstruction taking place, but not nearly as quick as anyone here would like.
And that is why the extension of the constitutional deadline is so frustrating for the average Iraqi.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): They gave no convincing reason for the delay. They just said we are still in talks. There's no convincing reason compared to what's happening on the Iraqi streets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): What a pity all this delay for nothing. This country is being destroyed daily by explosions with no security. Boy, we just want it to end.
RAMAN: Under intense scrutiny Iraqi leaders say they are making progress toward a final compromise. Whether that is truly the case will be known in a matter of days.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RAMAN: And so, Wolf, in between progress and violence reside the Iraqi people. They have hope for the future. They just at times cannot see beyond the difficulties of daily life. Wolf?
BLITZER: All right. Aneesh Raman in Baghdad. We'll check back with you as well. Thank you.
And your chance now to sound off on some of the major stories of the day. It's called the "Cafferty File." CNN's Jack Cafferty has a different question for all of us each hour. And he's joining us now live from New York.
Hello once again, Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Mr. Blitzer, how are you? Nice to see you.
There's a question that precedes the question. We were brought to our knees around here yesterday by that computer worm that shut down a lot of the computers here at CNN and I think some other media places, as well, ABC and the "New York Times."
My computer I.Q. is probably a negative number. I know nothing about this stuff. But I was reading in the -- one of the wires today where Microsoft put out a patch on August 9 that, if installed, would have prevented this worm deal. Yesterday was, what, the 16th? So a week before the computers all went on the fritz here -- that's a technical term -- there was a patch available. How come we didn't have that patch?
BLITZER: You know, our computers here in the CNN Washington bureau never missed a beat, Jack. In Atlanta and in New York we had serious problems but not in Washington.
CAFFERTY: Well, that's the power of the Wolfman!
On to other things. The Governator wants to crack down on sex offenders. Arnold Schwarzenegger out in California supporting two new bills that would force California sex offenders to wear electronic tracking devices for life. It's a great idea.
Schwarzenegger say the new law would give California the strictest laws and toughest penalties for the worst crimes. That's a quote.
The bill would bar registered sex offenders from living within 2,000 feet of a school, make possession of child pornography a felony, and increase parole time for up to 10 years for some offenses.
So the question this hour is: should sex offenders be monitored for life? E-mail us at CaffertyFile@CNN.com.
The other suggestion I would make to Arnold, if he were to ask, is if we tattoo the word "pervert" on their foreheads when they get out of prison so everybody knows who they are and where they are.
I mean, we've got to be -- remember these kids in Florida that were killed here a few weeks -- months ago by these paroled sex offenders that had records that reached from here to Washington and back? Nobody knew where they were. They were out, you know, stalking these little kids, raping them, killing them. Got to do something about that.
BLITZER: All right. We've to do something about the e-mail. And we're going to be doing something about the e-mail, because we're going to be getting it. Jack, thanks. You'll be sharing it with our viewers later this hour.
Still to come here, intelligence revealed. Warnings, warnings that perhaps an al Qaeda cell was operating in the United States before 9/11 and was ignored. Find out why an American military officer is now going public. He'll join us live here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Also, illegal immigration. A state of emergency declared in two states. But will that do anything to solve the problem? Standing by Lou Dobbs and Univision anchor Jorge Ramos. They'll join us to talk about it.
Plus, terror behind bars. Were prison gang members trying to organize attacks in Southern California? We'll have the latest on the FBI's investigation.
And a little bit later, buying booze at Wal-Mart? The world's largest retailer trying to shake up liquor sales. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: We turn now to THE SITUATION ROOM "Intelligence Report" to give you a look at several important security stories we're following right now.
Standing by, our State Department correspondent, Andrea Koppel, with word of an early warning, potentially, on Osama bin Laden. Also, our Kelli Arena on an alleged terror plot trying -- tied to street crime.
But let's begin with David Ensor on the claim that secret 9/11 intelligence never made it to the 9/11 Commission. What's going on, David?
DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, veteran Army intelligence officer Lieutenant Colonel Anthony Shaffer is going public with his claim that his intelligence team repeatedly tried to warn the FBI back in 2000 about a U.S. based terrorist cell that included Mohammed Atta, the 9/11 hijacker, but that military lawyers blocked the team from sharing its fears with the FBI.
Shaffer insists he also told the 9/11 Commission about it, too.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. COL. ANTHONY SHAFFER, U.S. ARMY: We, as through the Able Danger process, discovered two of the three cells which conducted 9/11, to include Atta. Now - and I -- that was to me significant in that they actually pulled me aside after the meeting and said, "Please come talk to us and give us more detail."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: The former 9/11 Commission responded to the allegation last week when Shaffer first made it anonymously, saying that their memorandum of meeting with him back in 2003 -- quote -- "does not record any mention of Mohammed Atta or any of the other future 9/11 hijackers or any discussion that their identities were known to anyone at DOD before 9/11" -- unquote.
At the Pentagon, Wolf, officials say Undersecretary of Defense Steve Cambone and his staff are looking into this, as you might expect.
BLITZER: All right, David, thanks very much.
And this note to our viewers. Lieutenant Colonel Anthony Shaffer, the Army intelligence officer, is going public now with his remarks involving the 9/11 Commission. He will join us live here in THE SITUATION ROOM. That's coming up.
There's also word that the government got an intelligence warning about Osama bin Laden almost a decade ago. Let's turn to our State Department correspondent, Andrea Koppel. She's following that. Andrea?
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, that warning came in July 1996 in newly declassified documents from intelligence analysts here at the State Department, who warned the Clinton administration that if Osama bin Laden were to move his headquarters, as they suspected he was, from Sudan to Afghanistan, that he -- quote -- "could prove more dangerous to U.S. interests in the long run."
That was because analysts said something that we've all since learned all too well, that in Afghanistan there are hundreds of Arab Mujahideen who received terrorist training.
Now, two years later in August of 1998, bin Laden's al Qaeda network attacked the U.S. embassies in Kenya and in Tanzania, and then three years later after that came 9/11.
Wolf, we're going to have more for you at 5:00 p.m.
BLITZER: All right. Thanks very much, Andrea Koppel, over at the State Department.
They seemed like run of the mill robberies. But were they just the tip of the iceberg in a far ranging terror plot? Let's get some information from our Justice correspondent, Kelli Arena. What's going on, Kelli?
KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, it started as a string of gas station robberies and the subsequent arrests of those two suspects. Their names are Levar Washington and Gregory Patterson.
When police searched Washington's home, that's when the FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force was brought in. Officials say that they found -- quote -- "jihadist materials." Sources describe that as documents with radical Islamist rhetoric. Now, some of it makes pretty positive statements about Osama bin Laden.
They also found what some investigators describe as a possible target list. Law enforcement sources say that the list included three National Guard facilities in the Los Angeles area, as well as the Israeli consulate and two synagogues. It also had a reference to the date of September 11.
Now, officials say that both of the men are Muslim converts. Patterson's lawyer, for one, said he's hoping that that alone hasn't led investigators to jump to conclusions. He denies that his client is a terrorist.
The investigation has also led to the arrest of at least one other man. He's a Pakistani national. Government sources say that investigators are also interviewing two men who are currently serving time in California. Sources say that investigators are looking into claims of whether jihad recruiting is being done in prison.
The concern here, obviously, Wolf, is that the police may have stumbled on a homegrown terrorist cell. But no one at this point is going that far.
BLITZER: Kelli, thanks very much for that information. And to our viewers, please stay tuned to CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security.
Still to come, illegal immigration. A state of emergency declared in two states. But what is really the best solution? Lou Dobbs and Univision anchor Jorge Ramos go head-to-head. We'll have a discussion.
Plus, vacationing in an undisclosed location. Tony Blair goes undercover to get away from it all.
And a little bit later, the NCAA bans Indian names from sports teams in post-season tournaments. Bob Costas, my special guest, will talk about that and lots more. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's get a quick check of some other stories we're following. CNN's Zain Verjee, joining us from the CNN Center in Atlanta. What's going on, Zain?
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, hi.
Today the Colombian navy searching for bodies after an Ecuadorian boat packed with would-be immigrants sank in the Pacific Ocean. More than 100 people are missing. A fishing boat saved seven men and two women.
After over a month of testimony, closing arguments round out the nation's first civil trial concerning Vioxx. Now that paves the way for juror deliberations. A Texas woman alleges that the painkiller caused her husband's death. Merck took Vioxx off the market a year ago. A study showed it could double the risk of heart attack or stroke if taken long term.
In Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, it may look like a river, but it's actually a road. Water is in the street right now after a water main break this morning sent out torrents of water. The water's flooded a TV station, left office buildings with virtually no water pressure and even got under vehicles and floated them away.
And with childhood obesity being a big problem, one group is offering a solution, limiting soda in schools. The American Beverage Association recommends limiting the availability of sweetened beverages in schools across the country, suggesting that children have access to things like sports drinks and low-calorie juices. Some school districts around have already replaced the soda in vending machines with some other options.
Wolf, back to you.
BLITZER: All right, Zain. Thanks very much. We'll check back with you.
It's a story all of us heard about for the first time here in THE SITUATION ROOM. Yesterday we brought you some continuous news coverage of the widespread computer worm attack.
Ali Velshi, in fact, was first to tell us about this with the bottom line. He's joining us live. Twenty-four hours later, Ali, what's the fall-out?
ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: Well, we've got a lot of things going on. You remember we were talking about this? We were talking about this worm and then we had this guy, this expert online who said, well, what's going on here? The computer isn't this one. It's this one, in fact. And then we thought there might be more.
We now have 11 variants of this thing that have now been reported around the world. McAfee, which is one of the big antivirus companies, has categorized at least one of those variants as high risk. As you know, yesterday Microsoft was downplaying that, saying it was low.
Now, the FBI, I spoke to them about half an hour ago. Here's what they have. They have reports, complaints to four of their field offices -- Atlanta, New York, Springfield, Illinois, and Los Angeles. We have confirmation in at least a few other places, San Diego, San Francisco, parts of Indiana where companies were hit with this.
Now, yesterday, Wolf, you commented that who are these guys? What do they -- what do they get hit with? Who finds them? The FBI goes after them in conjunction with Microsoft. And it falls under the Criminal Code Title 18 Section 1030. It's called Fraud and Related Activity in Connection with Computers. You can get five years -- five to 30 years if you're convicted of -- of hacking, basically.
BLITZER: Is there evidence that that is a deterrent to these guys? In Germany, for example, they caught this one hacker. He was 19 years old.
VELSHI: Yes.
BLITZER: He had done incredible damage. He got 21 months suspended sentence for all of this.
VELSHI: Yes, I know. It's hard. They've got -- there are some thresholds. They've got to prove a few things. By the way, the reason I'm not looking right at the camera is I decided to just sort of see -- these poor worms are getting -- you can't really see that very well, can you?
BLITZER: Is that a real worm? Is that a real worm?
VELSHI: It's a real worm. They're getting a bad rap. I've got to tell you. I think if it wasn't called Zotob and it was called Stanley the Worm, no one would be nearly as alarmed.
BLITZER: Ali, he's got a real worm there. But that's not going to cause any damage to a computer.
VELSHI: Oh, yes. It's just going to be with me.
BLITZER: Go wash your hands. Go wash your hands right now. Ali, we'll have -- we'll check back with you. Thanks very much.
We're following other important news here in THE SITUATION ROOM. A state of emergency declared along parts of the U.S.-Mexican border. How real is the crisis? Two network anchors will join us to talk about it: our own Lou Dobbs and Univision anchor Jorge Ramos. They'll be in THE SITUATION ROOM.
And a dramatic day in Gaza creating big buzz on the Web. Our Internet reporters looking at the situation online.
At the top of the hour, we'll go live to Camp Casey in Texas, the controversial anti-war protest site right near the president's ranch. Some developments there today. We'll update you on what's going on.
You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. Almost 50 percent of Mexican adults say they would move to the United States if they could. The poll by the Pew Hispanic Center also shows that one in five Mexicans would make that move illegally if necessary. The survey comes amid emergency moves by two states along the border.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: And the situation was out of hand.
BLITZER (voice-over): First it was New Mexico.
RICHARDSON: I declared a state of emergency.
BLITZER: Followed days later by Arizona, which also declared...
GOV. JANET NAPOLITANO (D), ARIZONA: A state of emergency, which, at this point it is.
BLITZER: The actions taken by two of the four states that border Mexico were not designed to address natural disasters like wildfires, but to deal with the tidal wave of illegal immigration. The two governors, both Democrats, charge that Washington has failed to secure its borders.
RICHARDSON: The federal government and the Congress are doing nothing.
NAPOLITANO: One of the things I hope this declaration does is it sends a sense of urgency to Washington, D.C., which has been issuing lots of words about the border and homeland security and illegal immigration. But we're not seeing the activity on the ground.
BLITZER: The moves allow the state to release more than $3 million to local law enforcement agencies and border counties to tackle the consequences of illegal immigration.
RICHARDSON: We've got border smuggling of people. We've got smuggling of drugs. We've got kidnappings, murders. We've got cattle destruction.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: So is there really an emergency along the U.S.-Mexican border?
Here to talk about that, two guests. Lou Dobbs is the anchor of CNN'S LOU DOBBS TONIGHT. And Jorge Ramos is the author of "The Latino Way." He's an anchor at Univision. Gentleman, thanks very much for joining us.
Lou, I'll start with you.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Sure.
BLITZER: What's going on along the U.S.-Mexican border with Arizona and New Mexico right now?
DOBBS: Well, Arizona, first of all, has become the entry point of choice for illegal aliens coming into this country, taking by far the majority of those illegal aliens each year. Three million crossed the border last year illegally. The number living in this country put as high, in the most recent Bear Stearns study, as 20 million people living illegally in this country. Numbers by the Mexican government itself put that number reasonably at the 20 million level.
And with the crime wave that is sweeping the border along the Texas-Mexico border and the Arizona border, as well, this has become an untenable situation, because there's no sincere, honest effort on the part of the federal government to secure our borders at a time when it's declaring a war on terror.
BLITZER: Jorge, what do you say?
JORGE RAMOS, UNIVISION ANCHOR: I think those numbers are completely wrong, However, I do agree that there is a crisis at the border. The border right now is out of control. The numbers that I have is that we have 11 million undocumented immigrants living in this country. I do not like to use the term illegal aliens, because that implies that they are criminals or terrorists, and they are not.
On the other hand, something has to be done, not only about the 11 million undocumented immigrants living in this country, but also the fact that it's not three million people who are coming in legally every single year. It's about half a million. And -- but something has to be done. First, I think there has to be comprehensive immigration reform. We have to provide legal status to those who are already here in this country, and at the end, there has to be an orderly flow of immigrants coming in and the only way...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: You want, Jorge -- you want all 11 million to be granted citizenship or some sort of legal status in the United States?
RAMOS: What's the other option, Wolf? Because that's the real problem. What's the other option? Are we going to deport 11 million people? Are we going to create concentration camps to deport them? What are we going to do with them? I mean, they are providing very important services to the United States and they're contributing millions and millions of dollars every single year. BLITZER: Go ahead, Lou.
DOBBS: Yes, Wolf. Jorge is -- Jorge well knows they're not providing important services to the United States. Illegal aliens are being exploited and used by corporate America for their own benefit. Individual corporations and employers are benefiting, while the taxpayers, not only on the border states, but across the country, are paying through Medicaid and Medicare and all sorts of social and health services for their being in this country illegally. They're not providing a benefit to the United States...
BLITZER: But...
DOBBS: They're providing them to specific employers...
BLITZER: ... the argument, though...
DOBBS: ... who ought to be, in my judgment, fined and fined heavily for their acts.
BLITZER: Lou, let me -- I'll let Jorge respond. Hold on one second, Jorge. I'll let you respond in a moment. But the argument is that these people do work here in the United States -- badly needed work -- that Americans don't want to do.
DOBBS: Then why in the world would not our publicly elected officials who represent working U.S. citizens take acts, make laws permitting people into come into this country legally so that there would be a public support for whatever immigration policy followed? Why would there not be a movement, just as Governor Richardson of New Mexico and Governor Napolitano of Arizona have insisted. This is an emergency and Washington is dithering.
BLITZER: All right. Go ahead, Jorge.
RAMOS: I do agree that it's an emergency. But, in terms of numbers, I mean, undocumented immigrants are an enormous contribution to the country. The most comprehensive study ever conducted about undocumented immigrants, by the National Academy of Science, concluded that all immigrants, both legal and undocumented, contributed more than $10 billion every single year to the economy of the United States. And also, I think it's a double standard, Lou, to say -- and to criticize undocumented immigrants, and at the same time, take benefit from their work. I mean, the house where you live...
DOBBS: I'm not taking benefit from their work at all.
RAMOS: ... was probably built by immigrants. Of course you are. The food that you eat, most probably was harvested by undocumented immigrants. The hotels and restaurants where you go most probably are serviced by undocumented immigrants. So it is truly a double standard. It is not personal, but I think it's hypocritical to say -- to criticize undocumented immigrants and, at the same, to have 290 million Americans and thousands of American companies benefiting from them. DOBBS: Well, you've used a rather serious word, hypocritical. So let's examine hypocritical. Hypocritical is to identify this issue as a racial issue because they are Hispanic, number one. These illegal aliens.
RAMOS: I haven't mentioned that. I haven't mentioned that.
DOBBS: Two -- I'm sorry? I'm talking about the hypocrisy of the debate.
RAMOS: I have not mentioned the word in this conversation.
DOBBS: Permit me, I did not interrupt you, Jorge. Please. The fact of the matter is, this is -- because these are Hispanic illegal aliens, most of them from Mexico -- we are allowing ethnocentric activist organizations, whether it be La Raza or any number of others, to define the terms in racial terms. And I can tell you personally, my feelings and my intellectualization of this issue would be the same if they were Germans or Poles or Chinese coming across our borders.
And the numbers that I've given, which you want to dispute -- I've cited the authority for 20 million. Three million, "Time" magazine. Governor Napolitano used the same number, Jorge, just this week when she declared a state of emergency. We must not diminish the scope and the dimension of this problem, because it's overwhelming.
BLITZER: Go ahead, Jorge.
RAMOS: Even if it's 11 million or 20 million, which I do not agree with that, something has to be done. And, again...
DOBBS: All right. We couldn't agree more...
RAMOS: Two very important things have to be done first. Yes, I mean, we have to provide legal status to those who are already here. And most important, there has to be an orderly way for all these immigrants to come. As long as you are a Mexican...
BLITZER: Lou, stand by for a minute. Lou and Jorge, both of you.
RAMOS: If you can earn the same amount of money in just a few minutes here, you're going to come to this country.
BLITZER: I want both of you to stand by. I want to take a quick commercial break, because there's more to discuss on this matter. Clearly, both of you have very strong feelings on it.
We'll take a quick break. More with Jorge Ramos and Lou Dobbs, right here in THE SITUATION ROOM after a short break.
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BLITZER: Welcome back.
The governors of New Mexico and Arizona have declared states of emergency because of the problem of illegal immigration on their borders. We're discussing this and more with Lou Dobbs, our own Lou Dobbs, and Jorge Ramos of Univision.
Lou, you complain the federal government is not doing enough. The Bush administration, the president says he's got a plan to give documentation to these workers, allow them to stay at least for the time being. Is he on the wrong track?
DOBBS: He's not only on the wrong track, he is actually pretending there's a train on that track. The entire immigration reform statements by this administration have been illusory. This administration had its merit. They put forward a budget, at a time in which we're engaged in a war on terror and 3 million people are crossing our borders illegally every year, to say that they wanted 200 extra Border Patrol agents.
Wolf, this administration, on the issue of immigration reform and border security, has been nothing less than straightforwardly deceitful and, in my judgment, absolutely irresponsible. And it's the reason that Governor Richardson and Governor Napolitano -- and, in my judgment, the governor of Texas and the governor of California will soon have to follow suit.
BLITZER: Jorge, are you concerned that terrorists could be part of that smuggling, that human trafficking going across the borders?
RAMOS: Absolutely, and that's a clear possibility. Again, my numbers are different than Lou's, but these are the numbers that I have. Every single day, every single day, 4,000 people try to cross the border illegally. Out of them, 3,000 are detained. But 1,000 make it illegally into the United States. It is quite possible that some terrorists might just get confused and be part of that group.
What is important is that if we are serious about comprehensive immigration reform, first, we have to legalize those who are in this country. And then there has to be a system in which we can identify those who want to come to this country and make it legal. As long as you are a Mexican who is making $5 a day in Mexico and you know that you can make exactly the same amount of money in this country in 30 minutes, you are going to come.
So it is unrealistic to think that these immigrants are going to go back to their country of origin.
BLITZER: Lou, what do you want to do with the millions of undocumented workers or illegal aliens, illegal immigrants, whatever we call them, what do you want to do with all those people who are here in the United States right now? DOBBS: I think that Senator Cornyn and Senator Kyl have put forward legislation that speaks directly to this issue, absolutely directly and with great effect.
The Kyl-Cornyn bill would call for, first, putting border security number one for this country; and secondly, then reforming immigration.
But to have our immigration policy set by the president of Mexico which is now, by the way, receiving more money from the remittances of illegal aliens from this country than it receives from its total oil revenue, Mexico's incentivized to send their people here. Forty percent of the population wants to move to the United States? Jorge, I don't know, but would you permit that because they can make more money here? What about the 300 million Chinese who would be here in a minute? What about our friends in Venezuela? I mean, where do we draw the line? And why should it be anything other than the abject irresponsibility of this administration at issue in dealing with this critical crisis.
BLITZER: Jorge, I gave Lou the first word, I'll give you the last word. Wrap it up for us, please.
RAMOS: Basically, I think something has to be done about immigration in this country. I think immigrants are needed in this country because they keep inflation under control. They provide -- they have basically taken the jobs that no Americans want to take. And also they are paying for the Social Security of a rapidly aging population. The last time I checked this was a country created by immigrants, and I don't see why we have to change that at this point.
BLITZER: All right. A good serious discussion on a very important issue. Thanks to both of you.
Jorge Ramos, thanks to you.
Lou Dobbs, thanks to you. You, of course, will be back here on CNN at the top of 6:00 p.m. Eastern. LOU DOBBS TONIGHT airs weekdays on CNN.
Thanks to both of you.
Coming up, he was shot and killed by mistake. Now a new report has some shocking details on the Brazilian man shot by police in London.
And an Army intelligence officer comes forward with disturbing claims about terror warnings before 9/11. He says they were blocked. He'll join us here in THE SITUATION ROOM live. We'll talk about it.
And high gas prices. They are not stopping one car maker from rolling out more gas guzzlers. CNN's Ali Velshi. He's here. He'll tell us why.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: Here's a look at some of the hot shots coming in from the Associated Press; pictures likely to be in your newspaper tomorrow. That would be Ted Turner, that picture you see right there. He, speaking at the demilitarized zone between North and South Korea, speaking about peace.
There are pictures there about Jewish settlers.
Also check that out. That's Terrell Owens of the Philadelphia Eagles. He runs on to the field for morning practice in Philadelphia today, returning after a week-long suspension. Terrell Owens of the Philadelphia Eagles. Here in the SITUATION ROOM we're following lots of stories. Let's check in once again with Zain Verjee at the CNN Center. She is following some specific ones. Zain?
VERJEE: Wolf, a British television network is reporting that a Brazilian man appeared to be behaving normally, that was just moments before police mistakenly shot him to death in a London subway station. Jean Charles de Menenez was shot several times after being cornered in a subway car the day after the failed bombings. ITV News says its information was based on a leaked report looking into the death.
Three-hundred and fifty bombs exploded across Bangladesh today, almost simultaneously. Officials say the blasts targeted many government institutions. News reports from Bangladesh say at least one person's dead. At least 125 are injured. Officials are calling them planned incidents, saying that they recently had intelligence reports about possible strikes. An Islamic militant group is claiming responsibility.
And a former America Online software engineer stole 92 million screen names and e-mail addresses, causing up to 7 billion spam e-mail messages. Jason Smathers was sentenced to 15 months for stealing the e-mail list and selling it to spammers for $28,000. AOL is part of Time Warner, CNN's parent company. Wolf?
BLITZER: About those terror attacks in Bangladesh today, Zain, what do we know about this Islamic group claiming responsibility for it?
VERJEE: The group is called Jumatul Mujahedin. We don't know a lot about them. But they have claimed responsibility. We know that they are a band group in Bangladesh. And what they really want is to establish an Islamic state in the country. Groups like Jumatul Mujahedin and others have been surfacing in Bangladesh over the years mainly in the north and in the south of the country. And those are fairly impoverished areas. Bangladesh is a Muslim country, but it is governed by secular law and not Islamic law which is what groups like this want.
BLITZER: All right. What a sad story that is.
Thanks very much, Zain, we'll check back with you. Jack Cafferty has been sorting through the e-mail that he's getting on this hour's question. He's joining us with the "Cafferty File" right now. Jack?
CAFFERTY: Thanks, Wolf. California Governor Schwarzenegger supporting two new bills that would force sex offenders in that state to wear electronic tracking devices for life. He says if the legislature doesn't pass them, he'll appeal to the people directly. And based on the e-mails we're getting, the people will insist that they be passed. The bills would bar sex offenders from living within 2,000 feet of a school, would make possession of child pornography a felony. The question this hour, should sex offenders be monitored for life? A lot of responses, most of them in the affirmative.
Steve in Palmetto, Florida, "Sex offenders should be monitored for the rest of their lives. They don't change their psychological make-up or behavior. They can never be rehabilitated."
Chris writes, "If a sex offender completes his or her sentence, doesn't that mean they have paid their debt to society? If these offenders are so dangerous they need to be tracked, they should remain in prison."
Tony in South Carolina, "Does this mean that if Arnold Schwarzenegger is finally tried and convicted in one of the many cases where he was accused of sex crimes, he'll be monitored for life?"
Paul in Alabama, "Yes. Yes. Yes. Not a big Arnold fan, but it's about time someone took the lead on this. I don't think the ACLU will be contributing to Arnold's campaign."
And Bob writes, "Sure. Should they have 'pervert' tattooed on their foreheads," as I suggested earlier? "No. By the way, Nathaniel Hawthorne wrote a novel about such an idea nearly 200 years ago. Does CNN actually pay you to recycle stuff like that?"
Yeah, they do, Bob. Not enough, but they pay me.
BLITZER: There always have to be some exceptions, though, Jack. For example if there's a minor who is 15 or 16 and there is somebody who is 17 or 18, technically that adult -- quote -- "adult," could be having sex with a minor and could technically be accused of committing a sex crime. Would that person have to be monitored for life?
CAFFERTY: I don't know the fine print in these proposed pieces of legislation, but common sense would suggest that no, they wouldn't. And I think this applies more to the kind of degenerate that raped and murdered that little Lunsford girl was it, in Florida, people like that. I don't think consenting adolescents of a certain age probably would have to come under this. But I don't know.
BLITZER: All right. Well, they got to write the law in some ways. I guess there has to be some exceptions to every law. Thanks very much, Jack. We'll check back with you in the next few minutes.
Coming up, attention Wal-Mart shoppers. The discount score store is making a big push to sell something that may not necessarily jive with its family image. We'll explain.
And when we go "Inside Politics", anti-war protesters getting ready to get closer to the president. Does location matter? We'll take you on a tour.
And is the British prime minister, Tony Blair, giving President Bush some vacation relief? We'll explain right here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
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BLITZER: A new king at Chrysler and cheers from Wal-Mart. Our Ali Velshi has the "Bottom Line" of those stories, plus the closing bell. Let's go to Ali right now. What's going on, Ali?
VELSHI: Markets are up. I'll tell you about that in a minute. But one of the things that is interesting is oil is off almost 3 bucks to $63.25.
I want to tell you about Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart sells a billion dollars in booze -- beer, wine and hard liquor -- out of the $285 billion. They want to get into this business bigger, Wolf. They want to sell $5 billion worth of liquor, which would give them a big stake in the hard liquor business in the US.
This is complicated, obviously, because it's not like selling groceries or the stuff they sell. They have to deal with complicated laws in different states. But this is the news. Yesterday Wal-Mart really upset the market, because it said that gas prices were affecting its bottom line. And the market kind of suffered on that.
So, when Wal-Mart speaks, we listen, Wolf.
BLITZER: What about Daimler Chrysler? What's going on there?
VELSHI: Tom Lasorda is the -- well, he's the COO of Chrysler. He's set to become the boss of Chrysler division's group in the United States.
We spoke to him this morning. Chrysler is coming out with big, big cars. And we were talking to him, saying, what is going on here? With the price of gas and oil, what are you doing with the big cars? He had a very interesting proposal for Americans who like to drive their big cars and yet want to save money. Let's see what he had to say.
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TOMAS LASORDA, CHRYSLER GROUP CEO: With the big trucks, if you look in Texas in the South, they wanted more room. That truck can seat six big adults. So maybe they can go in one vehicle instead of two.
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VELSHI: Six people in one vehicle, you can -- every three people can sell their car. Interesting phenomenon, Wolf. BLITZER: What about the market close? I think we're only a few seconds away from that. What is going on?
VELSHI: The markets have pulled back. But it looks like the NASDAQ and the Dow are both going to close higher.
You're looking in the middle of your screen at the Dow, which is 37 points higher to 10,551. The NASDAQ is almost nine-and-a-half to 2,145. And those numbers will settle in over the next half hour.
Wolf, back to you.
BLITZER: All right. We'll check back with you, Ali. Thanks very much.
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