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The Situation Room

Tour Boat Raised out of Lake George; Small Plane Crashes During Takeoff at Deland Airport

Aired October 03, 2005 - 16:58   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. We're here in THE SITUATION ROOM, watching a dramatic story unfold. Yesterday a boat capsized in beautiful Lake George in Warren County. That's in upstate New York, just north of the state capital of Albany.
Forty-seven passengers were on board that boat, 20 people died. The captain survived as well, in addition to 27 of the passengers.

We're speaking with the Warren County sheriff, Larry Cleveland. He's on the phone with us.

We've been watching these pictures, Sheriff, of this boat being brought to the top of Lake George. It's being taken to a secure location for an investigation, an inspection of what happened.

How many years have you been around there, Sheriff? Because this sounds like a very extraordinary, unusual situation, a tragic situation that developed in Lake George. Not normal business as usual by any means.

SHERIFF LARRY CLEVELAND, WARREN COUNTY: Well, I've grown up in this area, I've lived here all my life. I've got over 30 years of law enforcement service in this community.

This is unprecedented for our community. And as I've researched a little bit, or had provided to me throughout the day, this is unprecedented in our state for a marine tragedy. And I believe at this point we're talking anywhere in the United States. The largest I've heard of is 13 people that may have perished in the incident down in Staten Island.

So, it's had a major impact on us here, not just in the small community that we're in, but the state of New York as well.

BLITZER: It's so mysterious how this happened, because the weather, I take it, Sheriff, was simply beautiful, yesterday, wasn't it?

CLEVELAND: It was a gorgeous day, the lake was calm. There was a lot of activity because it was such a nice day, which would mean there was a lot of wave activity, a lot of wake activity coming from the other boats that were out there.

There are so many factors that could come to play here, that each one independently would probably not result in the tragedy we have. But it appears that two or three have come together to align themselves, which has brought about this event.

BLITZER: Some witnesses, as you know, Sheriff, insist that there was a wake from a larger vessel, the Mohegan, which caused the boat to roll over and sink, referring to the Ethan Allen. You've looked into that. What can you tell us about that?

CLEVELAND: Well, if there was a wake from the Mohegan -- and we don't believe there was one, the Mohegan was that close to that location at that time. Our preliminary information, it was three or four miles away. But if you reasonably think this through, these tour boats have been on this lake for years. I'm talking 50 and 60 years. If there was the potential for the Mohegan or any other large cruise boat to be overturning smaller boats, or even one as large as this, which is 40 feet, that's something that would be to our immediate attention, we would have stopped that activity, and it wouldn't take place.

So, it's unreasonable to say that one large cruise boat went by, and its wake rolled this boat over. There's more factors involved: the loading, the total weight, the distribution of that weight, whether or not there was other wakes or waves that were there in addition to the larger ones.

There is a well known occurrence on Lake George called echo waving, because this is narrow fresh water that has deep ledges on both sides, and the water waves go out, hit those rock ledges and echo back again. So, it's a phenomenon that is known on this lake.

And there's just so many factors that need to be considered, I can't begin to tell you that we could ever pin it on one particular thing, such as a larger boat putting up a wake.

BLITZER: Sheriff, how old was the Ethan Allen, this boat that we're seeing now being raised, brought to the surface, and being towed away? How many years had it been in operation?

CLEVELAND: I can't give you a year. I don't have that information right in front of me. But I know that this is one of three sister ships that are on the lake that are used routinely.

They've been out there for many years, I would say. And I'm taking a guess here. So you know, we're probably talking at least 15 or 20 years.

BLITZER: And do you know when it was most recently inspected for safety?

CLEVELAND: They're inspected on an annual basis by the New York State Office of Parks and Recreation and provided with an operating certificate for the season, and, of course, was, in fact, holding a valid certificate for the 2005 season.

BLITZER: What has this done to your community, Sheriff?

CLEVELAND: Well, it's brought out the best. If you were to be up here and look at this community, it's a nice quiet relatively rural community, tourist industry-oriented.

The people here I believe I know are grieving as much as they are in the state of Michigan. This is a loss to our community, not as much as to theirs, obviously, of course, but very much so in this community. Everyone is in shock. And we're all trying to express our -- our deepest of sympathies to the people that have been involved in this.

BLITZER: Sheriff, you mentioned earlier the number of people. There were 48 people on this boat, 47 passengers, plus its captain. Some of them may have been heavy.

What was the weight limit or the number of people, the limit that under normal circumstances you would have liked to have seen on this kind of boat?

CLEVELAND: The permit on this particular vessel was for it to carry 50 adults. It does not calculate out into weight. It's done by the number of people.

And as you'll go back and look over the history over the last few years as these accidents have occurred, there has been questions raised as to the standard that has been used and set by the U.S. Coast Guard, which I believe was 150 pounds per person. And as we know, we continually read in the news, the average weight of the American individual has gotten higher.

And I can tell you from being at the scene yesterday and seeing the victims, they were both -- and the survivors and those that didn't make it, there were people that were well over 150 pounds. There were several people considerably over that weight.

So you have to look at the total amount. That's something that the National Transportation Safety Board will do, and look at how that weight was distributed and how it could have moved in the 10, 15 or 20-degree pitcher (ph) roll.

BLITZER: The captain survived this disaster, Sheriff. And I take it he's in good shape. Have you personally spoken with him?

CLEVELAND: I did. Within 30 to 40 minutes of this accident, I was on the lake myself. I met with him right out on the lake.

I've known him for years as a master on one of the boats out there. He's not like a personal friend, but we all know who he is.

He's an honorable person, he's dedicated, he's a safety-oriented person. I've got to tell you, he is totally devastated. His only questions to me were how were the passengers and were people OK.

Right while I was there, that was his only real concern. He's been shattered by this.

BLITZER: Has he been debriefed? Have you had a chance to ask him what happened? CLEVELAND: We have sat down with him and had an extensive interview and have taken written statements. We know that he was in some kind of wake or wave turbulence. He was trying to adjust the boat to make sure they got safely through it.

It turned up onto its side. Some of the passengers lost their footing on the seats, which are fixed seats in the boat. And the weight then also shifted to one side, which continued to add on.

As I was trying to explain those factors, they kept piling on, which resulted in the tragedy. But each one alone may not have done it.

BLITZER: We're speaking with Larry Cleveland. He's the sheriff of Warren County, where Lake George is.

Sheriff, if you can bear with us for a few more moments, Susan Lisovicz is our reporter. She's on the scene for us in Lake George. She has a couple questions for you as well -- Susan.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Mr. Cleveland, one of the questions I would like to ask is the fact that there was only one crew member on board. It was this captain, this captain with his terrific safety record and a very deep knowledge of the lake. But nonetheless, just one crew member on board.

Is that something that adheres to the guidelines boating in New York state?

CLEVELAND: Each individual vessel that's authorized to operate under the Parks and Recreation permitting process has got that listed, how many crew members there must be. And we're working right now with the state to retrieve those records to find out how that was broken down.

It often changes by the number of people on board. So we of course need to know the number of people on board to then be able to determine how many crew people had to be on.

I don't know what those numbers are going to be. It's very possible that it could have been just the one that was required to be on there, or it may have been more than one.

LISOVICZ: Sheriff, also, the fact that -- that it was within the guidelines for the number of passengers, just under it, this is only a 40-foot boat, there were 48 people in total on board, do you go not only by the number of passengers but also by weight?

CLEVELAND: The permitting process goes by the number of adults that can be on board the vessel. It of course would be up to the captain to make sure before he left the dock that he felt that the vessel was maneuverable and was properly loaded and distributed, and was not to a position where it would have endangered anyone.

LISOVICZ: You know, one of the things that, you know, has come clear today is that -- is that there are so many conflicting accounts of what happened yesterday. And this did not happen under the cover of darkness, where there were maybe one or two people from a distance. This was a lake that was well populated yesterday, and there were many people who either saw the accident happen or came to the scene moments later.

What do you make of the fact that there are so many conflicting accounts in broad daylight?

CLEVELAND: Well, I know that that probably is surprising to the people that are not working with us on a daily basis. But there's an old maxim in the law enforcement business, and the worst witness you can have is an eyewitness.

If three people see something, you'll get three different versions. And we've been working all different angles. I'll just give you one example.

We had two or three reports right at the beginning that there was a fire on board, that a fire caused this boat to actually capsize. In reality, as we've gotten down to all these reports, talked to people, when the boat rolled over, the hot engine compartment struck the water, there was a plume of smoke and steam that went up which some perceived as being a fire.

But no one on board was burned. There was no indication of a fire on board. So we know that information was not correct.

But if I were to say to you, three eye witnesses said it was on fire, you would want to tend to believe that. But three witnesses did tell us it was on fire, eyewitnesses. And it was not.

LISOVICZ: Yes. And, in fact, some of the people that I talked to today, Sheriff, said that one of the things that attracted them to the scene was that they saw smoke on the water on this very clear day, and they knew something was amiss. And, in fact, they were among the first responders.

But since you're saying -- saying that, yes, that comes with law enforcement, is that there are conflicting accounts, that that is quite typical, who is it that you most want to talk to at this point?

CLEVELAND: Well, we want to speak to, and we have spoken to most, of the actual survivors. And the need there, of course, is the availability.

The majority of those people have now returned or are en route back to Michigan. So we had a focus today on trying to get to all of them so that we could talk to them, get detailed written statements and allow them to head back to Michigan, which was the top priority today.

LISOVICZ: When all is said and done, though, while authorities did this magnificent job of this very difficult job of raising the Ethan Allen to the surface today, the actual investigation itself in terms of real answers that you're going to be giving us is not something that we can expect anytime soon? CLEVELAND: No, you're talking weeks at the minimum before we're going to be able to come up with any definitive answers.

BLITZER: Sheriff, this is Wolf back in Washington.

Susan, stand by for a moment.

Sheriff, if you have another moment, I want you to hear if you can. If you're hard-pressed to leave, just let me know. Our Tom Foreman is here in our studio, Sheriff, and he's been looking at Lake George. He wants to give us some perspective now of this magnificent part of the country that we're dealing with.

And I can personally testify, Lake George is one of the great tourist attractions, I must say, of the eastern part of the United States.

But Tom, give us a little sense of what we're dealing with.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hugely popular, not only through spring and summer, but particularly in the fall. People do gather for the foliage every year. Very popular at Lake George.

Let's move in on Lake George and show you, again, where it is for starters.

It's in upstate New York, north of Albany, not terribly far from Saratoga Springs, famous for the racing there. Here are some other little lakes like this. You can see it's a long, narrow lake. And this is the main business area here. People gather all along here for fireworks throughout the year, wonderful placid, beautiful lake.

This is the cruise company we're talking about right down in this area. You see these little boat slips up in here. And the company is situated here along the main drag.

Lots of tourist attractions there, some miniature golf, things like this. It's truly a place for vacationers to go. And, in fact, one of the sad things is this is the time of year when a lot of the communities up there sort of start quieting down after the foliage to shut things down for winter. So, this is a terrible memory to be heading off into the off-season in many ways, also.

This is where the boat would have been. Don't know if this is the Ethan Allen. It could be one of the sister ships. But that, right there, is a 40-foot boat. So that gives you an idea of how big it was when it was near the shore.

And it would be quite normal for these boats to come out, cruise up and down this beautiful lake, sometimes when fireworks are around, sometimes late in the evening, sometimes earlier in the day. But this is where they're going, up the shoreline, along past little cabins, hotels, things like that.

This is Cramer's Point up in here. So there would be beautiful foliage all up along the mountains here. Not terribly far out. But as the sheriff pointed out a minute ago, and it's a good point to bear in mind here, look at the narrowness of this lake. This isn't a big, broad lake like some. It's oval in shape.

The other lakes near here, Lake Sakindak (ph), or this lake, this sort of thing, tend to be these narrower lakes. Many, many people as summer sport will swim across the lake. That's one of the challenges, but it's not a huge challenge, because it's not a huge lake.

So the echoing effect off these shores is easily accomplished. And particularly in the past 10 years, on this lake, over on Lake Sakindak (ph), some of the other lakes, there have been increasing complaints and worries among many citizens about the number of boats on a Saturday or Sunday, particularly if you have a nice day, because you get a lot of competing wakes.

We don't know if that's the issue, but it certainly has been an issue for people up there.

BLITZER: Tom, stand by.

Mark Rosenker is the acting chairman of the National transportation Safety Board here in Washington, but he's there in Lake George on a boat.

Where are you right now, Mr. Rosenker?

MARK ROSENKER, ACTING CHAIRMAN, NTSB: Well, Wolf, right now, I'm at the Cramer's Point landing, observing the surfacing of the Ethan Allen. The diving group from the New York State Police and the Warren County Sheriff's Department has done a very fine job of beginning the process of surfacing the vessel. We can actually see her top of the vessel now.

She's -- they're going to raise her up high enough to get to the gunnels (ph) so they can bring the pumps in to get all the water out, which then they will tow her out of the water and being the process of taking her to a secure location where our team of experts will begin the process of examining that vessel from stem to stern.

BLITZER: Mr. Rosenker, as you see this vessel, you see more and more of it, are you seeing anything that's surprising to you?

ROSENKER: Wolf, it is clearly much too early to make any kind of determination. Right now we see the colors around it, the flotation devices lifting it up.

There's still water clearly inside the cabin. Much, much too early to make any type of even -- even preliminary determination. It will be a while before we're able to figure out exactly what happened here.

BLITZER: But the fact that you have this boat, and it seems to be in relatively good shape, that's going to be able to help you in your investigation. ROSENKER: Wolf, you're exactly right. We're going to be able to go through it, see what the throttle positions were, take a look at how the rudders were working.

We're going to take a look at the bottom of the vessel to see how she -- she withstood the sinking. We're going to take a look at the sides of this vessel.

We're going to take a look at every single screw. We're going to take a look at every bit of the material of this vessel to make sure she was seaworthy and that we understand what happened there.

BLITZER: And you don't want to -- at this point it's way to early to even speculate about a cause for this tragic accident?

ROSENKER: Clearly much too early, but we will get to the bottom of it, we will get an answer, and we will be able to make determinations that -- in fact, we'll make recommendations that will prevent this type of thing from happening again.

BLITZER: Mr. Rosenker, who is in charge of this investigation? Would it be the NTSB or local or state authorities?

ROSENKER: What we have here is a very unique situation. The state and local authorities will be taking a look at the investigation as if relates to their state and their state regulations and rules.

Since this is not a water which is in any way, shape or form federal waters, we're here to take a look at federal safety implications for not only Lake George, but also any place else in the United States that operates similar types of vessels. So, although we do not have the criminal, nor do we have any type of civil, which we never have anyway -- this is not a federal waterway -- we're here under the legislation which enables us to take a look at catastrophic marine accidents.

BLITZER: Mark Rosenker is the acting chairman of the NTSB. He's on the scene there in Lake George.

I'm going to have you, if you can, Mr. Rosenker, stand by.

We're also speaking with Sheriff Larry Cleveland. He's the sheriff of Warren County, in upstate New York.

Tom Foreman is here in THE SITUATION ROOM. Susan Lisovicz is our reporter on the scene.

We'll continue to watch these dramatic developments. And I'll also -- when we come back -- we'll take a quick break -- I'll ask Mark Rosenker about the decision not to go ahead and do a drug or alcohol test for the pilot, the captain who survived this tragic accident.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: These are live pictures from Lake George in upstate New York. That's just north of Albany.

Yesterday, a boat, the Ethan Allen, carrying 47 passengers, mostly elderly tourists from Michigan on a sightseeing tour, plus the captain, the pilot, that boat capsized. The water -- it was a beautiful day, water was smooth. Under mysterious circumstances -- that boat is now being raised and being towed to a location for inspection by the National Transportation Safety Board, as well as local and state officials.

We're continuing our coverage of this deadly boat tour. We're bringing in the sheriff of Warren County, Larry Cleveland. He's joining us.

Mark Rosenker, the acting chairman of the NTSB, is standing by. I'll get to Mr. Rosenker in just a moment.

But Sheriff, these other boats that we're seeing surrounding the Ethan Allen, what are they doing?

CLEVELAND: The majority of those, the ones you've got on there right now, are law enforcement vessels being used right there to bring materials and resources back and forth to the scene to make the boat- raising go along more efficiently. And there are others there that are keeping back the public, which is a rather large number of pleasure vessels that are out there that are just watching to see what's going on.

BLITZER: How much longer do you think this is -- this is going to take place? And is this technically termed a crime scene?

CLEVELAND: Well, no, we would not classify it as a crime scene. But we are handling the case as you would a criminal case so that we make sure we cover all the bases and make sure everything is well documented.

BLITZER: And it will take a while to get that boat out of the water, actually, and tow it, and then lift it and move it into a warehouse, or wherever you're taking it?

CLEVELAND: Yes, I would say -- as you look at the picture now, that's one of our patrol boats that's actually pulling it to the shallower water. Then it's got to be pumped out, and then it's got to be secured and towed to where it can be taken out of the water, and then transported by land to a warehouse.

I would estimate we're probably talking three to four hours before we have that boat under cover.

BLITZER: And we're speaking not only with you, Sheriff Cleveland, but we're also speaking with Mark Rosenker, the acting chairman of the NTSB. I take it, Sheriff, there's good cooperation between you and federal authorities?

CLEVELAND: Yes, state, federal and local have been working on this as a joint investigation right from the very beginning, as we do on any major event. And I tell you that from what I've seen in all the years I've been in law enforcement, the cooperation could not be better than it's been in the last two days here.

BLITZER: And Sheriff, you've been there for a long time, you grew up in this area, you've been working in law enforcement for 30 years. You told me just a little while ago this is almost unprecedented based on what happened yesterday in Lake George?

CLEVELAND: It is absolutely unprecedented. We've never had anything, with any multiple fatalities even close to what's taken place here yesterday.

BLITZER: So this is going to have an impact on tourism in the region. I assume in the short term, you're going to have to reassure everyone that it's safe to be on Lake George. Are you fearful there were simply too many boats in the beautiful waters of Lake George yesterday?

CLEVELAND: The number of boats may have been a very minor contributing factor. But the number of boats that were out there over this weekend is not even half of what you would see on a normal weekday in July and August.

BLITZER: So that was not necessarily a major factor, but what could have been a factor was if these people were overweight, shall we say, and that the weight of this boat, it simply couldn't sustain 48 people.

CLEVELAND: That could be possible, the distribution, as well as the construction of the vessel.

BLITZER: We're going to let you go, Sheriff.

Larry Cleveland of Warren County, in upstate New York.

Good luck, Sheriff. Thanks so much for helping our viewers better understand what's going on.

CLEVELAND: Yes, Wolf. Thank you very much.

BLITZER: Thank you, Sheriff.

Mark Rosenker is still with us, the acting chairman of the NTSB, which is investigating the scene of this incident. These live pictures we're seeing, we're seeing a lot of boats there, Mr. Rosenker. Is this unusual in this kind of investigation?

ROSENKER: No. I think you've got a lot of folks that still have their vessels out for -- before they put it away for the season, and they're obviously interested in seeing how this recovery operation is going along.

BLITZER: Do you have a problem with all these private boats sort of getting close to the scene of where you're towing the Ethan Allen?

ROSENKER: No. Wolf, the local authorities have done an excellent job of maintaining security in the perimeter that we need, and that their divers, and that their technical assistants are using. So we're not concerned at all.

Again, I can't congratulate the divers too much on the great work. This is a very challenging lift. It is a very challenging issue of trying to get this vessel surfaced without doing any damage to it, and potentially re-capsizing it.

So, they've done a -- well, we're -- I could say they've done a very good job of securing it at this point. Now, she still is under water. But again, in much better shape for us to be able to do all the pumping that's necessary to bring her up to the surface and then do our investigation.

BLITZER: Mr. Rosenker, we heard the sheriff tell us a little while ago, Sheriff Larry Cleveland, that the pilot, the captain, was not tested for alcohol or drug use, given local -- local regulations and laws. Is that a source of some concern to you?

ROSENKER: Well, it's laws of the state. And at this point, the laws of the state were adhered to. So that was an option that could have been used perhaps by local authorities, and they believed they did not find probably cause.

So, at the federal level, a requirement would be to do a blood and drug test that would be analyzed and assessed to see if there are any type of drugs or alcohol in the bloodstream.

BLITZER: Even perhaps inadvertent, some sort of medication that the individual might have been taking. But just clarify in my mind, because I'm a little confused on this, if this had been a plane crash, or if it had been a train crash, routinely the NTSB and other authorities would have mandated that the -- that the captain, that the pilots undergo some sort of drug or alcohol test?

ROSENKER: That is correct. And had the captain been operating in federal waters, and had a Coast Guard license, then that requirement would have also been adhered too. But since these were operating in state waters here, there is no federal requirement for a drug or blood alcohol test.

BLITZER: All right. Mr. Rosenker, if you've got a few more minutes, I would love you to stay with us, because we're going to continue to cover this story. And momentarily, we're going to be getting some new pictures of the Ethan Allen that we're getting in.

Do you have a few minutes to spend with us?

ROSENKER: I'll stay with you, Wolf, and try to answer as many questions as I can.

BLITZER: Mark Rosenker is the acting chairman of the NTSB.

Thank you so much.

We'll take another quick break. We'll also bring back Tom Foreman, who's got some perspective on what we're seeing. Susan Lisovicz is on the scene for us. Much more of our coverage after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. We're watching the lifting of the Ethan Allen. That's the boat that capsized on beautiful Lake George yesterday in upstate New York. We're getting new pictures of the Ethan Allen. We'll show those pictures to our viewers. Joining us once again is Mark Rosenker, the acting chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board. We're looking at this new video, we see this boat coming up. It's being towed. Mr. Rosenker, it's a sight that is very important for this investigation. Explain to our viewers why this is so critical?

MARK ROSENKER, NTSB: Well, we're going to see the condition of the vessel. If there were any mechanical or engineering issues that may have been a contributing cause to this -- to the sinking and capsizing. But we'll also be able to see where the rudder location is. We're going to take a look at the throttles and see where they may have been positioned to learn what speed this vessel may have gone as it began to rock and it began to capsize. There's a lot of information that's hidden in this vessel. And we will uncover it with our highly trained tactical marine experts.

BLITZER: How unusual is this accident? We heard the sheriff of Warren County, Larry Cleveland, say it's unprecedented. He's been there 30 years on the scene. Give our viewers a sense, because everybody especially this time of the year in the summer, they want to go out on these boats, they want to do some sight seeing. They want to take the cruises in Lake George and other lakes, and waterways around the country. How extraordinary is what we have just seen?

ROSENKER: I would characterize this as quite extraordinary. And we're going to find out why this happened, so we can prevent it ever from happening again.

But these waters have clearly been quite safe for the commercial type vessels that are operating on it. Recreational boaters are also quite safe on these waters, particularly when they're wearing their personal flotation devices.

We're going to find out what happened here. We're going to make sure everybody understands what happened here. And we're going to make recommendations to prevent this type of thing from happening, not only in New York, but potentially anywhere on waters in the United States.

BLITZER: And I'm going to let you go in a second. But one final question, Mr. Rosenker, the 47 passengers I take it were not wearing these flotation devices, the life vests?

ROSENKER: That is correct. But there's no requirement for that as well, Wolf.

BLITZER: Did they have the life vests on the boat? ROSENKER: There was a requirement to have one for each passenger on the vessel. And we'll counting to make sure that they had enough life preservers for each and every one of the passengers and crewman. So, we'll be trying to take stock of everything that is on that boat to make sure it was in compliance.

BLITZER: Did the 27 survivors -- passengers who survived, plus the captain, were they wearing life vests?

ROSENKER: We'll be interviewing them to find out. We don't know. There were life preservers that were floating, came out from the vessel. We had heard some people grabbed hold of those. But we'll learn more as we do these interviews, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. Mark Rosenker is the acting chairman of the NTSB. He's also a two star Air Force general in the Air Force reserves. He's joining us from Lake George. Very kind of you, Mr. Rosenker, to join us, appreciate it very much. You've been very helpful.

ROSENKER: Wolf, thank you for letting me have the opportunity to be with you today.

BLITZER: Good luck with this investigation, sir.

ROSENKER: Thank you, sir.

BLITZER: Joining us now on the phone is Jerry Thornell. He's a former navigational officer for Warren County, which is where Lake George is. What do you make of had has happened, this tragic accident, Jerry?

JERRY THORNELL, FRM. NAVIGATION OFFICER: Yes. It has been a tragic accident, a very unusual circumstance. Yesterday, the weather was exceptionally calm and beautiful, as it is today.

BLITZER: Where are you now?

THORNELL: I am at the site where they are raising the Ethan Allen presently.

BLITZER: Describe to our viewers what you're seeing.

THORNELL: I'm sorry?

BLITZER: Could you describe to our viewers what you're seeing right now?

THORNELL: Well, the boat there's the -- the boat is being brought into the shore. And they are attempting to raise it a little bit. I don't believe that they're going to try to take it out of the water here. There's not a suitable launch area here. And I suspect they'll probably end up towing it to Lake George or Bolten where it would be more -- well, it would just be more of a condition where they could take it out of the water. I don't believe that can happen where it is presently. BLITZER: In all the years you've been in Warren County, have you ever seen anything like this before?

THORNELL: No, I certainly haven't. Unfortunately, in the years I've served on -- this as a navigation officer, we have had single fatalities or drownings here and there, but never a multiple like -- anything like this, or any catastrophe like this.

BLITZER: This is a mysterious puzzle. Do you have any working assumptions what happened?

THORNELL: Well my assumption would be that the weight factor, 40-some odd people aboard, 47 people, probably 8,000 pounds, 4 tons. The relatively small boat, probably draws three feet. So, I would think maybe something attracted a group of people to one side, it must have turned simultaneously and rolled.

BLITZER: So, in other words, if the captain was turning the boat, and everyone seemed to sort of slid over or just moved over to one side, that could have capsized it. Is that what you're suggesting?

THORNELL: Well, I think that's a possibility, although I disagree with what I'm see about floating portable chairs. The boat that I'm looking at right now that's partially out of the water certainly has secured benches. I do not see any of these lawn chairs that they described.

BLITZER: Well, there may have been some of those lawn chairs that fell overboard, and they could be at the bottom of the lake right now.

THORNELL: Well, that's a possibility. But there's certainly are secured benches aboard the boat also.

BLITZER: These are very common to do these sightseeing boats in Lake George. It's by no means an unusual situation. A lot of these boats going up and down Lake George.

THORNELL: Oh, yes. we have many, many boats that are tour boats. But this is one of the smaller ones. There are other boats here that are over 100 feet and hold up to 300 passengers. This boat is 40 feet, which makes it a relatively small tour boat.

BLITZER: I want to show our viewers a picture of the Ethan Allen and what it looked like before it capsized. There it is. I don't know if you have access to what you're seeing on CNN, Jerry, but it looks like a nice little boat with a nice cover to protect people from the sun, but I can certainly understand that you have 47, 48 people on board and everyone gets sort of gets on one side, that could tip over the boat.

THORNELL: I don't know the naval architectural statement about that. Wolf. I can understand from an amateur point of view, we might think that. But all boats have critical points. And I don't know what the critical weight and balance situation is on that boat. I can also say that New York state, in terms of public vessels, and I do have a public vessel license, is the most rigid state in terms of safety. And I know this was inspected in May. And I suspect that all of those considerations are made before they license it for the number of passengers that they allow. And my experience has been that they are exceptionally strict about that in the state of New York.

BLITZER: Jerry, if you can stand by for a second, Tom Foreman is here in THE SITUATION ROOM with us. He's watching this. Tom, show our viewers once again where this is taking place. And you mentioned earlier what the echoing effect from this sort of geography surrounding Lake George. I want you to explain to our viewers what that means.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. The place that this is happening, you have to bear in mind, a huge tourist area, but really a fairly sparsely populated area year round. If you fly over the land here, look at this, these are really relatively small communities here. This is along 87, the highway going up that way.

BLITZER: This is north of Albany.

FOREMAN: Yes, this is going up north of Albany.

This coming up to Lake George. That's Lake George right there, the main town, the area where everybody goes to for going out to dinner, your going out for fun in the evening with your kids, very family-oriented, lots of people here. People gather along here all during the summer. There's a beach down in here that's actually designed for people to play on and have a nice time with their kids.

We talk about the size of this boat. I want to go in an show you that one more time. This is the same area that the Ethan Allen launched out of. And this is a 40 foot boat. We've measured it from our satellite pictures end to end. That's how big it is at the dock. You see near it much, much bigger boats are in this water.

We talked about this echoing effect, though. I want to go back to Kramer's Point which is the place in question here, at Kramer's Point, which where all of this happened, as you move up the lake here, look at the narrowness of the lake. When you have boats moving up and down here, particularly large boats, I'll move over to this side just a little bit so you see the other side of the water here.

BLITZER: How wide is that lake?

FOREMAN: It's not terrible wide. I'm trying to think of a -- I don't want to make the wrong guess here because it comes and goes.

BLITZER: Maybe Jerry knows. Jerry, do you know how wide Lake George is?

THORNELL: Yes, I do. It's 32 miles long and at the widest point about three-and-a-half miles wide.

BLITZER: Three-and-a-half miles.

THORNELL: Yes. As I said, a lot of people for summer time fun up there, one of the big challenges, let's swim across the lake. And they can -- you don't have to be a great swimmer to do it. It's probably not the safest thing to do in the busy times, but nonetheless, it doesn't take a great bit of effort. The echoing effect is this though, in a narrow body of water like this, if you have a lot of boats moving, or even big boats moving, take a big draft, they'll set up a wave which will go over and hit this shore, and because the lake is so narrow, it will actually bounce off the shore and start coming back out. So, if you have to have a big boat over here and big boat over here, or a series of them, they can set off wakes that go out, bounce, come back, rejoin in the middle.

And I can tell you from being on lakes up here on much smaller craft, sometimes you don't have that many boats on the water on a calm day, and you can still get these echoing wakes, and it could be a little dicey for a moment or two. If you combine that with a boat that's got a lot of people on itand if, as you suggested -- we were asking earlier, people get drawn to one side of the boat as you easily could when your looking at foliage, somebody says, oh my gosh, look at that one here, then you could have movement that would unbalance the boat. A lot to look at, a lot of factors. But that's what the echoing effect is and how it could play a role.

BLITZER: I'm going to take a quick break and I'm going to get Jerry Thornell, former navigation officer of Warren County to comment on that. We'll take a quick break. Much more of our coverage right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We'll get back to Lake George in a moment and cover that story, that boat that capsized, killing 20 passengers. But let's check another developing story we're following right now. CNN's Zain Verjee joining us from the CNN center on that plain crash in Florida. What do you know now, Zain?

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We're getting more information, Wolf. We know now that that plane that crashed on takeoff from Deland Airport in Florida was carrying 11 people. They were essentially out to have a good time and to go sky diving. Authorities are saying that there were injuries, but none of them are life threatening.

The Federal Aviation Authority is sending a team from Orlando to investigate this crash. It crashed at about 3:00 pm local time. The Deland police chief says that the plane had actually reached a height of 250-300 feet before it just went down and plummeted to the ground.

The pilot, Wolf, is among those that have been injured. He's been taken to the hospital. The company owner says the pilot was actually on his seventh flight of the day, and that the weather was really good. And he has no idea what could have caused this crash.

Again, though, Wolf, good news that there have been no life threatening injuries. BLITZER: Good news indeed. The NTSB will have more to investigate, though, Zain. Thank you very much. Zain Verjee reporting for us.

Let's get back to this other story we're following, the boat that capsized on Lake George in upstate New York yesterday, killing 20 passengers, 27 survived, as well as the captain, the pilot of this boat.

Jerry Thornell is a former navigation officer for Warren County which is where Lake George is. He's been there for a long time. You heard our Tom Foreman offer this theory about this echoing effect, given the narrowness of Lake George, about three-and-a-half miles wide. What do you make of that theory that he was expressing?

THORNELL: Well, I'm not a geologist, but I never heard of a theory like that. And certainly this lake has had thousands of vessels operating yearly, for years and years and years, and we never had an event like this. So I really kind of discount that.

BLITZER: What about this theory that the passengers, for whatever reason, all 47 or most of them, wound up either sliding or moving to one side, and they were heavy and the boat simply couldn't handle it and capsized?

THORNELL: I think that has feasibility. The reality of it is that if you put a lot of people on one side of a boat, you're going to put the weight and balance out, and then a catastrophic event, I suspect could possibly happen. But I don't know that that's the cause. But I certainly think it's a reasonable assumption to look in that direction.

BLITZER: The life vests that are there, the flotation devices, in a situation like this where you literally only have a few seconds to deal with an emergency, how available are they? In other words, you have to open up boxes or are they -- you just grab them as you see a situation develop?

THORNELL: In this particular vessel, the life jackets are stowed above the rail. They would have to be reached for and taken out. It would not be a situation where you could immediately grab one, it would take probably a half minute or so to grab them. And that's typical on boats to store them above the decks like that.

BLITZER: Is it typical, when you start a tour like this, for these 47 elderly tourists from Michigan -- and we're looking at these live pictures once again from Lake George come in -- that the pilot explains emergency procedures, sort of like a flight attendant does at the start of a flight?

THORNELL: Yes. And any vessel that sails in this state of New York, from my experience, the captain or the crew member always addresses the safety issues and points out to people where the life jackets are in case of an emergency, and I'm fully confident knowing the captain is fully competent, that that took place yesterday also. BLITZER: I was sort of surprised -- but correct me if I am wrong -- that there was only one pilot, only one professional on board for 47 people. Is that unusual?

THORNELL: Well again, that is a relatively small boat. It's a single screw. It would only require that one people be the pilot. And I don't know the circumstances of the particular company as to what their policy is as to when they would put a second person aboard, but one person was exactly the captain. And as far as I know, he was the only crew person there, yes.

BLITZER: We spoke to the sheriff of Warren County, Larry Cleveland, who knows the captain. We see this video that we got, how quickly it came up, once the flotation devices were there. Do you know the captain?

THORNELL: I know of him as a former state trooper, retired state trooper in the state of New York.

BLITZER: But you don't know him personally, is that what you're saying?

THORNELL: I don't know him personally, no, I do not.

BLITZER: The water is at what temperature normally this time of year?

THORNELL: Well, yesterday, they were towing, I have every reason to believe it was 68 degrees.

BLITZER: Which is chilly, but it's not too bad. It could be a lot colder in upstate New York this time of year?

THORNELL: I think it's exceptionally warm for this time of the year here. We haven't had a frost, it's a beautiful day today. And I'm assure the temperatures are exactly that today.

BLITZER: How were the 27 survivors rescued?

THORNELL: I think primarily, almost -- I won't say exclusively, but primarily private boaters who happened to be in the area. Because it was such a beautiful day, the traffic was more than it would have been in any normal Sunday in October, particularly with football and baseball going on. And there was quite a boating crew out there. And they came to the rescue immediately. And because there were so many boats, that's how they were able to pick up those people -- that many people.

BLITZER: Do you know, Jerry, if there was a mayday or a siren went off, or some sort of alarm, some sort of radio communication announcing that there was an S.O.S.?

THORNELL: Yes, I do know a person in a canoe closed to it had a cell phone, dialed 911 and that call went to the Warren County Sheriff's Department probably within the minute of that boat sinking. And they responded immediately. They did happen to have a boat on the lake at the time, and it was fairly close by and in a matter of maybe five minutes, there were several representatives from the sheriff's department and state police on the scene.

BLITZER: Jerry Thornell, a former navigation officer in Warren County in upstate New York. I'm going to have you stand by.

We're going to continue our live coverage of the Ethan Allen, the boat that capsized, it's now been brought to the top of Lake George, it's being towed, it's being towed to the shore. We'll continue our special coverage right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: These are live pictures from Lake George in upstate New York. We've been watching the lifting of the Ethan Allen. That's the boat that capsized yesterday, some sort of accident occurred. Forty elderly passengers from Michigan dead; 27 -- 20 passengers dead, 27 survived, including the pilot. We've been looking at the lifting of this boat for much of this past hour or so.

I want to show our viewers some videotape, showing at one point how quickly the Ethan Allen actually came to shore once they put these flotation devices in it. You see it there, right there. It's already been lifted, but we have some videotape. We'll rack that up and cue it up properly and show that our viewers how fast it came up from the bottom. Remember, this is 70-feet deep water right there. And these are some of these divers that have been working on this situation.

There's the boat right there, the Ethan Allen. Tragically, it capsized yesterday, killing 20 people.

Jerry Thornell is still with us, the former navigation officer for Warren County. As you look at these pictures, Jerry, certainly your heart goes out to all those folks from Michigan who died, as well as the survivors. What was supposed to be a beautiful vacation in the fall in upstate New York, watching the changing of the colors, the leaves on beautiful Lake George, in a few seconds turned into this freak accident that we don't know what sparked -- what sparked it.

What goes through your mind, Jerry, as you're looking at these pictures of an area that you love so much?

THORNELL: Well, of course Lake George is beautiful. It is the queen of American lakes, and I spent roughly 50 summers here, although my permanent residence is in Marion, Massachusetts. But I -- I do spend as much time here as we can.

But it is a tragedy. I mean, we like to think of the lake as just being a place for pleasure and not for tragedy. And unfortunately, the waters can turn, and it becomes a tragedy.

BLITZER: And as you -- you've pointed out, and Sheriff Larry Cleveland have pointed out, Mark Rosenker, the acting chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board, all of whom have been here, this is highly, highly unusual. We'll continue to monitor this story and check it out. Jerry Thornell, thanks very much for joining us. We'll take another quick break. More of our SITUATION ROOM right after this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): As the outspoken sister of Nicole Brown Simpson, Denise Brown was one of the first to talk about the other side of football hero O.J. Simpson. Brown's emotional testimony early in Simpson's trial was unforgettable.

DENISE BROWN, NICOLE BROWN'S SISTER: He picked her up, threw her out of the house. She ended up (INAUDIBLE) -- she ended up falling.

ZAHN: After the trial, Brown became an advocate against domestic violence. She currently runs the Nicole Brown Charitable Foundation, which helps battered women and their children.

BROWN: In educating myself and then starting to travel, I learned about domestic violence, I learned what my sister was going through.

ZAHN: Brown maintains a relationship with Nicole's children, Sidney and Justin, who live in Florida with their father, but she doesn't see or talk with O.J.

BROWN: I can't stand the ground he walks on. I believe he murdered my sister, and I will always think that.

ZAHN: Brown still wears a silver cross that belonged to her sister.

BROWN: She's always missed, you know. Every single day, there is not a day that goes by that I don't think about her.

ZAHN: And she marks every anniversary of Nicole's death with a candlelight vigil.

BROWN: I just don't want another person to have to suffer through something like we did. And I think that's what drives me. And I know Nicole is with me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. We'll show you some live pictures from Lake George. They've been lifting that boat, the Ethan Allen up. They're going to try to understand what exactly happened, that tragic accident yesterday, killing 20 passengers. Susan Lisovicz is on the scene for us.

Susan, it's been a very dramatic day.

LISOVICZ: Very dramatic day, but one certainly that officials can be very proud of, because the sun was shining here today in more ways than just literally. This was a very difficult, tedious operation, and at the end of the day, as you well know, they were able to lift the Ethan Allen intact to the surface of the water. A critical piece of the investigation, and one of perhaps the only good things we can say about this terrible tragedy is that when investigators come to the conclusions as to what caused it, that it may never be repeated again -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Susan Lisovicz, on the scene for us, thanks very much.

We're here in THE SITUATION ROOM every weekday afternoon, 3:00 to 6:00 p.m. Eastern. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. To our Jewish viewers, happy new year. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now, Lou standing by in New York.

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