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The Situation Room
Harriet Miers Nomination; Problems Facing Tom DeLay; Mystery Illness In Toronto Nursing Home; Harriet Miers Makes Courtesy Call On Hill; Polls Show Public Views On Miers, Roberts Widely Different; Former White House Insider Says Miers Not The Best GOP Has To Offer; Interview with Sen. Dick Durbin
Aired October 05, 2005 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Ali. I've got a nickel for me right here!
It's 4:00 p.m. in Washington. and you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where news and information from around the world arrive in one place simultaneously.
Happening now, a conservative clash. Does the right think Harriet Miers is the wrong person for the Supreme Court? This hour, new signs of support and opposition, plus some new poll numbers.
Keeping the faith. Backers of Miers are eagerly touting her born again credentials. Will that help get her confirmed or could it backfire?
And life and death and the U.S. Supreme Court. Chief Justice John Roberts and his colleagues weigh this question, should Oregon allow doctors to help terminally ill patients die?
I'm John King. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM. Thanks for joining us. Wolf has the day off.
"Inside Politics" just ahead in THE SITUATION ROOM.
First, let's go back to Zain Verjee at the CNN Center for an update on the mystery illness in Toronto we told you about last hour. Zain?
ZAIN VERJEE, CNNHN ANCHOR: That mystery illness, John, now has killed 16 people in Toronto, Canada. We previously reported that 10 people had been killed. Canadian authorities ruled out bird flu. They ruled out SARS, Legionnaire's disease. Truth is, they don't know what it is. They're doing autopsies but nothing conclusive has come out.
Canadian medical officials have said that by day's end they would have more information on what this could be.
This was an outbreak, essentially, John, confined to a nursing home on the Scarborough on the outskirts of Toronto. Everyone that died, that has been affected, has been from this nursing home -- Many of them elderly, and having pre-existing medical conditions, like diabetes, for example, and other respiratory illnesses. Most of them were in their 80s and 90s; one in their 60s. Total number of people infected, John, at least 84.
Canadian doctors have said that despite the bad news, the outbreak has been contained. They also indicated earlier that they expected the death toll to rise, because of the number of people that had already been infected. Again, though, 16 people, dead from this mysterious illness in Toronto.
John.
KING: Vain Verjee in Atlanta. Thank you for that update.
Now, "Inside Politics" here in THE SITUATION ROOM. This hour more Republicans have come forward to share their doubts about Harriet Miers' qualifications for the Supreme Court. It may say a lot about the president's choice of Miers or about the state of his political clout. Miers went back to the Hill today to try to sell her controversial nomination.
Our Congressional Correspondent Ed Henry is there and tracking it all.
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: John, this morning Harriet Miers woke up to a blistering column by conservative George Will suggesting that Republican senators should reject her nomination. She did come to the Hill. Reaction was very mixed. Not surprisingly, she paid a courtesy call on fellow Texas Republican John Cornyn. He gave her his endorsement.
Basically, White House adviser Ed Gillespie heard an earful when he went behind closed doors with Republican senators for lunch today. Trent Lott saying, basically sometimes he believes presidents make mistakes. Lott said his first reaction when he heard Harriet Miers' name was, uh-oh. That he remembers voting for David Souter in the first Bush administration. He has regretted it ever since and that is why he is undecided on this.
Another influential Republican, John Thune told me there's anxiety in the conservative community. He says it's palpable. The jury is still out, because conservatives have been told before not to worry, in the case of Souter, and then got burned.
Senator George Allen, potential presidential candidate, says -- quote -- "I want to be assured she's not another Souter." I asked whether he was disappointed by this pick? There was a long pause and George Allen finally said I want to afford her due process, wait it out, check out the hearings.
Conservatives also may be concerned about what happened when Harriet Miers went behind closed doors with Democratic Senator Pat Leahy. He asked about the fact that Dr. James Dobson, the influential conservative, said in recent days that he believes that, in fact, she is pro-life. Here's the answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. PAT LEAHY, (D-VT) JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: She said, I will be my own person. I'll be independent. Nobody has the authority or right or ability to tell how I'm going to vote. So I said, those who are saying they're going to vote this way or that way, they know how they're going to vote. Are they wrong? She said, absolutely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: After this lunch with Republican senators, White House adviser Ed Gillespie told reporters everyone should calm down. Recalls over the summer when Chief Justice John Roberts first got picked, conservatives were also concerned. They said he was a blank slate. They were reassured in a bunch of conference calls by White House advisers, in the end, Roberts confirmed with 78 votes.
Gillespie would not venture a guess here, but said that Harriet Miers in the end will get wide bipartisan support. I can tell you a senior Republican aide here on the Hill, noted John Roberts is a tough act to follow. And this aide says the White House still has a lot of work to do.
John.
KING: This tells us a great deal more than questions about Harriet Miers, does it not? Conservatives are so vocal. The president used to be able to say, trust me.
HENRY: You're absolutely right. After the last presidential election, the president is a lame duck. And with a lot of Republicans on the Hill looking at his low poll numbers, and their own political security heading into 2006 -- you're right -- they are being a lot more bold about going out on their own.
Trent Lott, for example, thinking about running for a leadership position in 2007. George Allen, as I mentioned, possibly running for president. Sam Brownback also thinking about running for president; he's non-committal on Harriet Miers. They are a lot of them going their own way, John.
KING: Ed Henry on Capitol Hill continuing to track this now and in the days ahead. Thank you.
It's not just on Capitol Hill where there are doubts. It seems increasingly clear, when it comes to Harriet Miers' prospects for an easy confirmation, well, she's no John Roberts.
New poll numbers on Miers are just out and our senior political analyst Bill Schneider has been studying them. Bill?
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Our new poll suggests why it might be tougher for Harriet Miers to get confirmed.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: Forty-four percent of Americans call Miers and excellent or good choice. That's fewer than the 51 percent who said the same thing about John Roberts when President Bush named him in July. The strongest difference is among conservatives; 77 percent thought Roberts was a good choice; 58 percent of conservatives feel that way about Miers.
Miers does offer something Roberts did not, diversity. But that doesn't matter much to the public. Just 29 percent say the fact that Miers is a woman makes them more likely to support her; 5 percent say it's makes them less likely to support her. Two-thirds say it makes no difference at all.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Congratulations.
SCHNEIDER: People are more concerned about her close personal ties to President Bush. Forty-four percent say her relationship with Bush makes them less likely to support her. Only 16 percent say more likely.
As was the case with Roberts, Miers' views on most major issues are not known. That bothers people. But Miers, unlike Roberts, has no experience as a judge. That bothers people, too.
Miers' supporters say that shouldn't matter. As an accomplished lawyer, she has had other equally valuable experience.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: One of the things that I think is important about her experience, she's represented real people.
SCHNEIDER: Roberts had written and argued extensively about constitutional issues. That helped compensate for the lack of information about his views. Miers does not have the same intellectual standing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: Another reason why it would be tougher for Miers. She would replace Sandra Day O'Connor, the swing vote. More is at stake.
John.
KING: Bill Schneider, thank you very much.
We want to show you now, this is tape of the president of the United States earlier today visiting the Walter Reed Army Medical Center here in Washington. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: ... to our wounded soldiers, every time I come here, I'm amazed by the courage and decency and strength of those who wear the nation's uniform.
It is such an honor to be the commander in chief of such fine men and women. And I ask for God's blessings on them, and their families as they recover from their sacrifice and service.
Thank you all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: That is a trip the president makes several time as year visiting the wounded at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center. The wounded from both Iraq and Afghanistan; president and the first lady, there.
Back to our developing stories. The Miers nomination on Capitol Hill. and the new John Roberts Supreme Court took on its first major case today. And at least one justice says it may be one of the toughest cases this term. At issue, Oregon's law letting doctors helping terminally ill patients end their lives.
CNN's Kathleen Koch is live at the Supreme Court and joins us now.
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John, the debate in the Supreme Court today was not over whether or not assisted suicide is right or wrong, but whether or not the federal government can use a law designed to stop drug abuse to instead stop what advocates call death with dignity.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KOCH (voice over): Outside the Supreme Court Wednesday, advocates of Oregon's assisted suicide law, like cancer patient Charlene Andrews argued it is a comfort and a choice the terminally ill deserve.
CHARLENE ANDREWS, CANCER PATIENT: It's all part of this spiritual journey of being able to die with compassion and with dignity.
KOCH: But opponents believe assisted suicide is wrong, and devalues those with disabilities.
CAROL CLEIGH, DISABILITY RIGHTS ADVOCATE: It promotes the idea that people that need help would be better off dead. And we don't believe in that. We believe our lives are just as valuable as everyone else's.
KOCH: Inside, though, justices wrestled with whether the 1970 Controlled Substances Act gives the federal government the right to stop doctors from giving terminally ill patients a lethal dose of medication. Retiring Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, the critical swing vote, asked whether an attorney general who opposes capital punishment could use the law to prohibit lethal injections.
Oregon's assistant attorney general argued that the federal government can regulate drugs but not how physicians administered them. Chief Justice John Roberts seemed skeptical asking -- quote -- "If one state says doctors can prescribe morphine to make people feel good, or steroids for body builders, doesn't that undermine the uniformity of federal law and make it harder to enforce elsewhere?"
Solicitor General Paul Clement argued that assisted suicide lacks legitimate medical purpose and, so is an improper use of medication and thus a violation of federal drug laws.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOCH: Today's arguments here in the Supreme Court may be a moot point altogether, because of the pending retirement of Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. The rules in the Supreme Court are if you are not on the bench when the court is ruling on a particular case, your vote does not count. Her replacement nominee, Harriet Miers, is scheduled to perhaps be on the court as soon as November, perhaps December. But, again, even if she were approved, got on the court while it was still ruling on this very divisive case, she would likely have to recuse herself, having been White House counsel, John, when this case was appealed to the Supreme Court.
KING: Good point for us, Kathleen. A busy day at the Supreme Court. Thank you very much.
Pushing the faith. Are Harriet Miers' supporters advertising the Supreme Court nominee's evangelical conversion? That story coming up in our "Culture Wars".
Plus, why did one grand jury refuse to indict Tom DeLay on money laundering before another grand jury went ahead with an indictment? The latest legal twist in the DeLay case coming up.
Later, John Kerry and other presidential hopefuls head, where else? To Iowa. That story ahead in our "Political Radar."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Now you might expect to hear doubts about Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers from people who don't know her that well, or the president. Well, perhaps.
But former speechwriter David Frum was a White House insider who worked very closely with Miers and he's not happy with her nomination to the high court. And David Frum is right here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Why not?
DAVID FRUM, FMR. WHITE HOUSE SPEECH WRITER: She's not good enough. She's not good enough.
This the Supreme Court of the United States. It deserves the best. When there is a Democratic president, it deserves the best Democrat. When there's a Republican president, it deserves the best Republican. And we have the best. And this -- and as the president showed with the John Roberts nomination, you can nominate somebody who's intellectually strong, principled, and the Senate of the United States will overwhelmingly accept him. There is no reason not to send the best we have.
KING: You worked closely we her inside the White House. You are saying the president's wrong. He said yesterday she was the best qualified. He had the list, the people he passed over when he picked Roberts. Then he went outside. You're saying to the president, with all due respect, you're wrong?
FRUM: I don't know how he can say that. And I don't think there is a conservative in Washington who believes that. I don't think there's anybody in the legal business in Washington believes that.
There are people who will accept this nomination because they support the president and want to see him succeed. There are people who oppose this nomination. I don't think there is anybody who's not in the immediate White House, or not in some way obliged to say they actively support it.
KING: You say there is no conservative in Washington who believes she's the best candidate. Here is something from Jay Sekulow, who is, as you very well know, chief counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice, and also Christian conservatives he is viewed as a leading legal thinker -- somebody they trust. And he says, once again, President Bush showed exceptional judgment in naming Harriet Miers to the Supreme Court to replace Justice O'Connor.
FRUM: That is a comment about President Bush, not a comment about Harriet Miers.
Look, we have got, you just go through the list. You want to nominate somebody who's got a different kind of experience, who is not on the appeals court. That's great. There are a lot of excellent people.
He could have named for example his Interior secretary, Gale Norton, a woman, a Westerner, not a judge, somebody who was attorney general in the state of Colorado, litigated cases, some very tough cases, a great lawyer, fiercely independent.
You want to nominate somebody maybe who is a little older. You don't care about getting a 50-year-old. Pick Ted Olsen, or Ken Starr. There are great people.
KING: Take us inside the White House. You were in those meetings, we can't see -- we're not allowed to see and not told much about. Say, for example, when the president is having the internal debate and ultimately decided to support a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. Harriet Miers involved in those discussions at all to your knowledge?
FRUM: Harriet Miers would not have had much to say. She is his lawyer. When he makes the decision, she makes it happen. And she's a good lawyer. But she's not an initiator. She was never a force for anything. She doesn't have views. And one of the things that -- in a way, I'm not sure the president --
KING: She doesn't have views? The administration has to take a position on the Oregon right to die case. The administration has supported the state of New Hampshire when it comes to its parental notification law on abortion. Does the president turn to her and say, Harriet what do you think?
FRUM: I don't think -- I'm sure he does turn to her, but I think that she would, and what she's done until now, been very good at reflecting his views back to him. That's what they've been saying on the White House talking points. That she reflects the president's philosophy. I think that's exactly correct. She reflects it.
But does she -- does she share it, does she absorb it, and can she articulate it in a way that's convincing? The job of the Supreme Court justice is not just to cast a vote. A Supreme Court justice is a voice.
You want somebody who is good at getting votes, put Denny Hastert on the Supreme Court.
KING: David Frum, help me then understand. You were in the inner circle of this White House at some key moments in history -- helping the president decide what to say to the American people and the world after 9/11, key moments in the war on terror, State of the Union, convention speeches. If you think this is a missed opportunity, that president blew it, why? What does it say about George W. Bush? Not about Harriet Miers?
FRUM: Presidents make mistakes. I don't know what it says about the president. At this point, it says he was not making a good decision that day. Sometimes he gets rattled, as any president does, and maybe he's defensive. Maybe he wants to flex his muscles. And maybe he's mad at conservatives for not having gone along with the Gonzales nomination. Doesn't matter what his motive was. This is not a good enough choice.
And we've got now some better rules about how these things are done. There aren't going to be filibusters. There are going to be up and down votes, open debates.
But Republicans should ask some really searching questions. They should put Harriet Miers' views on public display. There aren't articles, there aren't records. She's not taken an active role in legal philosophy. Ask her to explain herself. If in the end, you are not convinced this is the very best that the Republican Party and in the conservative legal world have to offer, let's go find somebody else, because we have some excellent people.
KING: Stunning criticism from a man who sat very close to this president in the Oval Office. Thank you for joining us.
FRUM: Thank you.
KING: Thank you.
Is there division among Democrats when it comes to Harriet Miers? I'll ask Dick Durbin, one of the top Senate Democrats. He joins us next right here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Plus, we'll tell you why Washington's getting ready for the royals.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: While some conservative Republicans are raising red flags about Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers, many Democrats, at least so far, are holding their fire. And some have pretty nice things to say about her.
We're joined now by a member of the Judiciary Committee, and the number two Democrat in the Senate, Minority Whip Dick Durbin of Illinois. Congratulations on the White Sox victory. I'll give you that one, up front. Different results tonight we hope.
Your Majority Leader Harry Reid, says she's OK at least so far. Let's listen to the majority leader and I want to ask, do you agree with him?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HARRY REID, (D-NV), MINORITY LEADER: I just understand the broad outline of this woman. The broad outline looks really good to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: A little confused, Senator Durbin. We just had a White House insider, David Frum, here saying he thinks the president blew it. The majority leader says looks pretty good to me -- the minority leader, sorry, says looks pretty good to me. Do you agree with Senator Reid on this one?
SEN. DICK DURBIN, (D-IL), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Senator Harry Reid has a very positive impression of Harriet Miers. He knows her better than I do. He has not committed himself. He said that he wants to wait until she answers important questions about the issues that she'll face on the Supreme Court. But I don't think there is anything wrong with saying something positive on a bipartisan basis to start this important process.
KING: I want to take you back to the Roberts hearing. You asked of then-judge, now Chief Justice Roberts something that some Republicans found objectionable, they thought you were trying to explore his religious views. And Senator Cornyn at the hearing said this, "We have no religious test for public office. And I think anyone would find that inquiry, if it were actually made, offensive."
I know at the time you said you weren't trying to trying to explore his religious views. But I'm wondering, given that criticism of you, do you find it at all ironic, maybe I can't find the right word, the White House is going out of its way now to find friends of Harriet Miers from this evangelical church in Texas, to say to conservatives, hey, trust us.
DURBIN: It is interesting how a different nominee changes the standards around this town. I wasn't looking for a religious test. Never would. I respect the Constitution and the separation of church and state in our country. But there are so many issues that are personal conscience issues and also political issues. If you ask a person about their position on the death penalty, it may cross both lines. That's an example.
And when it came to Judge Roberts in the Supreme Court hearing, it was Arlen Specter, the Republican chairman, who asked the first question about whether Judge Roberts' religion would cause problems for him as a Supreme Court justice.
It is a legitimate inquiry as long as it doesn't go too far and too deep. Each of us respect a person for their religious beliefs and it should never be a disqualification from office.
KING: One of the issues that frustrated the Democrats in the Roberts hearing, is certain to come up again -- perhaps even more so -- because Harriet Miers has not been a judge. We don't know much about her. Not much of a paper trail. And Democrats already are saying, let's see some of the memos she's written to the president while she's been involved in White House policy making, including the last five months, as the White House counsel. The president says, no.
Let's listen to the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: It is important that we maintain executive privilege in the White House. That's part of the deliberative process. That's how I'm able to get good, sound opinions from people.
It's a -- I'm sure they're going try to bring this up. I happen to view it as a distraction from whether or not Harriet Miers is capable of answering the questions she is asked. They can ask all the questions they want. It is a distraction from whether or not she'll be a good judge.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: With so many Republicans, Senator Durbin, saying they also have questions, do you think you will have any more luck this time at getting Republican help in pressing for documents?
DURBIN: I'm really concerned. You know, Harriet Miers was the coach for many nominees and told them to say as little as possible. Now, with no judicial background -- and of course that's not a requirement to be in the Supreme Court -- but with no judicial background, we can't turn to decisions she'd made on a court level or things she's written as a judge to really get an insight into her thinking.
So they say, well trust that she's worked in the White House for so many years. And many of us say, fine, let's see some of the documents that that reflect her thinking on important issues. No, no, no. We can't give you those documents.
If we run into the same situation as we did with Judge Roberts, where he didn't answer so many key questions, and we can't get documents about her background, how can we make an informed judgment about a lifetime appointment to the highest court of the land? It's a problem. KING: Many senators, you well know, said this is more important because it's the swing seat, the O'Connor seat.
You'll get more than one, but if you had just one question of Harriet Miers, what would it be?
DURBIN: Basically want to ask her, some insight into her view of the broad expanse of the law. Let me just be specific. The right of privacy really goes to the heart of basic personal freedoms. Are there certain areas of our personal and family conduct that of out of bounds for the government, where we should make that decision, as individuals, members of families, married people? That we make these decisions, the government cannot get involved. That, I think, is central to the line of questioning that's important to me.
KING: I want to quickly change subjects, Senator. Take a little extra time here. The president gives a major speech tomorrow, what the White House says is a major speech on strategy for the war on terror.
I'm reading -- just handed to me -- a pretty damning letter you sent to the White House saying the president simply hasn't leveled with the American people, that he does not have a political strategy to end the insurgency.
The president is going to give a big speech tomorrow. Let me ask the same question. What one question would you like answered?
DURBIN: Let me just say, John, America can do better when it comes to the war in Iraq. As of 10:00 this morning, the Pentagon told us we've lost 1,942 of our best and bravest soldiers. Almost 15,000 have been seriously wounded. T
he question I would ask the president is this. If only one battalion out of 100 of Iraqi forces are ready to stand and fight, how long will it take us and how many battalions have to be ready before American soldiers can come home?
For years we've been promised, we are just getting the Iraqis ready to defend themselves. Sadly we find ourselves in a predicament where we're losing our best and bravest soldiers, continuing to lose them every single day.
KING: Senator Richard Durbin, Democrat of Illinois, thank you for joining us, sir, in THE SITUATION ROOM. Congratulations again. I'm hoping to turn the tide to the good Sox, the Red Sox will come back in this series.
DURBIN: Go White Sox.
KING: Take care, sir.
Now, our Zain Verjee joins us from the CNN Center in Atlanta with a closer look at other stories, not the sports news, making news. Zain?
VERJEE: John, new evidence that the forces of nature know no boundaries. These are pictures of a wildfire that began in Mexico. It has since jumped the border and now burns in Southern California, not far from San Diego, where 500 acres in the United States and 1,000 acres in Mexico are scorched of so far. Firefighters believe the blaze originated as a structure fire that ignited dry brush and it spread really quickly.
Iraqi police say a suicide bomb went off inside a Shia mosque 60 miles south of Baghdad. The bomber set off the explosives around 5:30 p.m. local time, killing at least 25 people. Dozens more injured and part of the mosque itself is demolished. It happened during services for a Shia Muslim killed in another attack.
Iraq's National Assembly has reversed last week's election rules change that would have made its newly drafted constitution a shoo-in. The body bowed to both internal and international pressure and voted overwhelmingly to change the language back to its original form. The move last week was criticized by the United Nations. Iraq's Sunni minority had also threatened to boycott the crucial October 15 referendum.
And a spokesperson for Britain's royal family says Prince Charles and his wife Camilla will make their first official visit to the United States together in early November. They plan a tour that includes New York, Washington, D.C., as well as San Francisco. While in Washington, they're scheduled to join President and Mrs. Bush for lunch and dinner at the White House.
John?
KING: Zain, do we know anything else about their schedule, maybe a visit to THE SITUATION ROOM, anything else?
(LAUGHTER)
VERJEE: Maybe. We're trying for that. We actually don't know so many details. They're citing security reasons. So we don't know the specific dates of when they'll be here or exactly where they'll be staying. We know that they will not be staying at the White House. They may go down to Ground Zero in New York City, visit that. They'll be meeting with the U.N. secretary-general, Kofi Annan.
And this also just coming in to CNN, they will meet with Jack Cafferty for tea, scones and some e-mail. John?
(LAUGHTER)
KING: That...
VERJEE: Where is he?
(LAUGHTER)
KING: We don't know where he is. Maybe he's getting ready. He's learning how to make tea.
(LAUGHTER) KING: Take care, Zain.
Grumblings on the right about Harriet Miers. How should the White House sell its Supreme Court nominee? We'll explore that with Paul Begala and Bay Buchanan in our "Strategy Session".
Also ahead, new information in the case against Congressman Tom DeLay. Why did one grand jury refuse to indict him, yet another did?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers is a born-again Christian. And if you didn't know that already, her supporters want to make sure you do.
In our "Culture Wars" segment today, let's talk about Miers' religious background and how it's being promoted with CNN faith and values correspondent Delia Gallagher.
Delia, Miers' faith getting a lot of attention. Appears to be exactly what the White House wants. Why is that?
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN FAITH AND VALUES CORRESPONDENT: Well, of course, as you know, John, this is a Supreme Court nominee who does not have a judicial record, and so one of the ways that you can convince conservatives of her conservative credentials is by letting them know about her faith. And she a woman who was very involved in her church down in Texas, and so this is very important, of course, in terms of understanding who she is, but not necessarily in terms of how she will vote.
Nonetheless, it gives some indication of who Harriet Miers is in the absence of a judicial record.
KING: And you've been trying to poke around to get more details, more information than simply the fact that she's an evangelical Christian. Tell us what you know?
GALLAGHER: Well, it's a very interesting story actually, because she was born a Catholic and then she had a conversion experience when she was in her 30s. And that's the kind of baptism, reborn, born-again Christian evangelical experience when you have a full-immersion baptism.
And one of the people that was instrumental in this was the Texas Supreme Court judge Nathan Hecht. And I spoke to him earlier. And he confirmed that, yes, she had this personal conversion experience, a way to sort of deepen her faith, and he brought her into this church in Texas, Valley View Christian. He said, of course, that she is pro- life, and he said that she is pro-life, but you cannot extrapolate from that how she will decide certain cases.
Broadly speaking, I spoke to the pastor of this church. He said, yes, this is a church which is a pro-life church and pro-family church. And some of those Christian values, of course, would be something that their members may adhere to, yet he said there's no test for membership.
So again, we're sort of extrapolating some of her personal views based on what the community believes, but as Judge Hecht pointed out, even though he would call her pro-life, he said you can't extrapolate from that how she would vote on any particular issue.
KING: Any reluctance of her friends from the church to talk about this?
It's quite interesting, because during the context of the presidential campaign people used the term Christian conservative. And often you hear objections from the community saying they're somehow being -- it's being used as a pejorative.
GALLAGHER: Well, absolutely not. The surprising thing -- I talked to several members of that community. A, they all love her and say she has been very involved in that community for 30 years. She converted in June of 1979. They reiterate that she's a sort of very quiet background person and yet very involved. And so there was absolutely no reluctance on anybody's part to say, now, you know, whenever you're dealing with Christian churches and Christian beliefs, there is a broad spectrum of what members can believe, but on the whole, it's very Bible-based.
I asked the pastor also about his views on creationism versus intelligent design versus evolution, and he said they might go more for a sort of intelligent design creationism idea. But, you know, roughly speaking, these are Christian concepts that many members of Christian communities and the evangelicals would adhere to.
KING: Delia Gallagher -- inside information on a fascinating subplot to the Miers nomination. Thank you, Delia.
GALLAGHER: Thanks, John.
KING: And coming up, the case against Tom DeLay. Is the indicted congressman getting helped unintentionally by the prosecutor? The latest legal turns in our "Strategy Session."
And does Rudy Giuliani miss the campaign trail? We'll tell you what the former New York mayor says, ahead in our "Political Radar."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: On our "Political Radar" this Wednesday, Bill Clinton is promising Mississippi residents the millions of dollars he's helping to raise for hurricane relief will be used where it's needed most. The former president has been spending the day touring devastated neighborhoods along Mississippi's Gulf Coast. He views Katrina damage in Alabama this afternoon.
Former Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry is headed back -- where else -- to Iowa, to touch base with party activists as he weighs another White House bid in 2008. Kerry heads to the lead off presidential caucus state Sunday to help raise funds for local candidates. Other potential White House hopefuls are following his lead. Five other contenders expected to visit Iowa this month. It's the corn.
Former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani says it's too early to say whether he'll run for the White House. But the Republican said today he does plan a return to politics, a hopeful sign no doubt for his supporters. Giuliani talked about his future in a speech to credit card companies.
Selling Harriet Miers. How does the White House push its Supreme Court nominee to skeptics on the right and the left? I'll ask Paul Begala and Bay Buchanan next in today's "Strategy Session."
And later, growing fears about bird flu. We'll get a house call from our resident doctor, Sanjay Gupta.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: "Strategy Session" just ahead.
But first, our Zain Verjee joins us now from the CNN Center in Atlanta with a closer look of the other stories making news. Zain?
VERJEE: John, health officials are baffled by a mystery illness that's killed 16 residents of a Toronto, Canada, nursing home, but they say they are confident the outbreak's under control and may be over before they even identify what's causing it. The outbreak has struck 70 residents, 13 employees and five visitors at a single facility.
Tropical Storm Tammy is off Florida's Atlantic coast now. The storm, with top winds near 45 miles an hour, is about 20 miles northeast of Daytona Beach. Tammy is the nineteenth named storm of this very busy Atlantic hurricane season. The storm is expected to soak parts of Florida, Georgia and South Carolina with drenching rains.
And there's a bit of a new twist to tell you about the Tom Cruise/Katie Holmes romance. Stick around for the next hour of THE SITUATION ROOM. We'll tell you why they and their families are so happy.
John.
KING: You're making me wait for that?
VERJEE: Yes.
KING: Don't think I have a choice, anyway.
VERJEE: No.
KING: Thank you, Zain.
One is facing deep legal troubles, the other faces intense legal questioning. Both have ignited big stories here inside the Beltway and beyond -- Republican Congressman Tom DeLay and, of course, the Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers.
Here to discuss both of these stories, two of our CNN analysts, Democratic strategist Paul Begala, Republican strategist Bay Buchanan. Before we get there, a quick update on the story we'll talk about first, Tom DeLay.
You know, of course, about the first indictment that forced Tom DeLay to step aside as the House majority leader, charging him with money laundering, essentially campaign finance violations in Texas. And you know as we reported extensively in THE SITUATION ROOM yesterday, about another indictment of Tom DeLay, additional charges, the prosecutor going back to the grand jury essentially to get a new indictment with new charges.
What we're learning about today, in between. There was a third grand jury, and that grand jury declined to indict Tom DeLay. A member of the grand jury quoted in news stories as saying they laid out the evidence and the grand jury decided against initiating charges against Tom DeLay. So this one gets even more and more curious.
Paul Begala, this is a prosecutor who in the eyes of many -- even Democrats who think Tom DeLay is corrupt -- is making, as Tom DeLay's attorney said yesterday on this program yesterday, the Keystone Cops look pretty organized.
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, let's wait and see what happens in the court of law. You know, in Texas, you don't prove a case in the indictment. You just charge. It's not a very lengthy document or very detailed document.
But I think politically, where I'm on safer ground -- I mean, I went to law school in Texas, but my dean used to say, if you want to hide something from Begala, put it in a law book, OK. ut politically I think DeLay's got more worries -- less worries, rather, with Ronnie Earle and the Democrats than he does with Roy Blunt and the Republicans. They've moved into this vacuum. You know, what did Shakespeare say? You know, Cassius has a lean and hungry look. Such men are dangerous. He may not have a job to go back to even if he somehow beats the rap on these charges.
KING: Well, Bay, what about that? The legal issues will play out and DeLay's attorneys think they have a pretty good case. We'll see how that works out, as Paul says. Politically, will he have a job to come back to? Should he have a job to come back to?
BAY BUCHANAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: The key is timing here, John. You know, if they can get this thing quashed in just a few weeks, I think that he has enormously loyal compatriots up there on the Hill. They are, in essence, holding the spot.
There are several of the top leadership people who literally said you're part of our team. We're holding the spot for you. If you get this thing taken care of quickly, we'll put you back in. His problem is, come January, time is up, because those congressmen know we're facing an election year. KING: Well, let's stay on the point. I'm not sure if he's a fan of Shakespeare -- as you are -- or not, but Representative Mark Foley, Republican of Florida, says this in "The Hill" newspaper: "There's a lot of turmoil in the leadership and we're watching closely. I'm not sure it will happen overnight but this is a competitive business and people are looking for openings."
I thought Tom DeLay was the guy who built up so much loyalty, so much -- so many favors, raised all this money for people. That didn't last very long, did it?
BUCHANAN: Well, you know, again, there's four or five people who are powerful who are saying we're going to block any kind of effort to fill this spot with someone else. However, come January, there's enough stirring going on up there. They want a new guy. They want an election. If DeLay is not back in that spot by January 1, I think he will never see that position again.
KING: Don't you, as Democrat, want Tom DeLay back in that spot next year?
BEGALA: Exactly. The Democrats ought not hang their hopes on Ronnie Earle convicting Tom DeLay in a courtroom in Texas. I think they actually stand a better chance in the election running on a reform agenda in 2006.
Now, that means Democrats actually have to be for reform and not simply say we'll replace Republican lobbyist corruption with Democratic lobbyist corruption. I mean, you actually have to, you know, have some meat behind that. But, you know, there are some -- my old pal Rahm Emanuel from the Clinton White House, now a congressman who has a package of reform legislation. He's going to use that. He's also chairing the Democrats' campaign for the Congress ...
KING: Shameless nominee plugs.
BUCHANAN: This is ...
BEGALA: Yes, but he's going to have people running on that reform agenda.
BUCHANAN: There's no question. Call it reform. We see it as the issue for next year you all are hoping for is cronyism and corruption. You keep DeLay at the top of the ticket, you've got the Abramoff investigation, that could be another shoe. There's certainly no evidence of that, but you never know. And so do Republicans take that risk by putting DeLay back up there? That's the concern.
KING: Let's talk about what, at least at this point seems like it could be a hangover issue, a carryover issue, and that is this confusion or worse within the conservative movement over the president of the United States right now. It is manifesting itself in the nomination of Harriet Miers.
I want to read you something from Phyllis Schlafly. Phyllis Schlafly, president and founder, of course, of the Eagle Forum, very respected among Christian conservatives especially, says this in the "Washington Post": "Bush is building his own empire without regard for the conservative movement or the party. People expected him to move the Supreme Court away from its activism, and there is nothing in Miers and Roberts to show that he has moved the court one inch away from where it is."
Do you agree with her?
BUCHANAN: I happen to think Roberts is a better candidate than she did.
But on the issue of Miers, I agree with her entirely. I think the president has made a terrible, terrible mistake. As a conservative, and talking to conservatives all day long for the last couple of days, I can tell you they are not happy. They do not feel any need to support her.
He has managed to unite conservatives. You've got -- you have out there George Will, Bill Kristol, and David Frum, and Pat Buchanan, and Phyllis Schlafly, and Terry Jeffrey (ph) all saying...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: He said he would be a uniter, didn't he?
(LAUGHTER)
BUCHANAN: Yes. He's done it. We're all against it. We think that she's -- we need to ask -- the senators need to ask her tough questions. We don't feel that she's qualified. That's where he has a real problem.
KING: Do you worry though that the Democrats are getting suckered on this one? I mean, we were joking a bit earlier. Every team, you know, it has a star pitcher but it also has a bullpen. So what -- what if she's just a consistent conservative vote but not an intellectual powerhouse? Now, I don't know her well enough to say whether or not she is, but so what? If the president gets a good conservative vote for 25 years, why is that so dispiriting to conservatives?
BUCHANAN: I'll tell you what the problem is. First, we do believe that it's the Supreme Court and that she should be qualified.
But the second one -- we don't believe she is. But the second point here is it's a gamble. We're not sure, all right? And we've got millions of unborn children whose lives depend on this. And do we gamble with that?
And we say, look it, we've got this qualified group over here, about 30 of them, who we know will make certain that they do the right thing and we don't have to gamble.
So we've got to see. Hopefully, she'll step down and we'll put one of those absolutes.
KING: But it's a gamble for the Democrats to think that conservatives are right. And this is David Souter.
BEGALA: That's right. I think just the fact that Bay Buchanan does not support Harriet Miers doesn't mean that Teddy Kennedy should. You know, I think the Democrats would be wise to kind of keep their powder dry. I think you saw Dick Durbin -- you interviewed him, very ably, by the way -- he kept his powder dry. He didn't give any kind of a commitment on where he would be.
This is, I think, for conservatives a tough deal. It's a faith- based nomination -- trust me. And I think Democrats would be better off going where Bay is, at qualifications.
So if the truth is she got nominated for the Supreme Court the same way George W. Bush got into Yale, right? She knew somebody in the Bush family. It's connections, not qualifications. You couldn't say that about John Roberts; you could say it about her.
KING: Should the Republicans -- you mentioned Dick Durbin and my adequate interview...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: ... his point, the Democrats are going to make is let's see the paper trail. Let's see -- since she hasn't been a judge, let's see what she's written, let's see memos she's given to the president.
Now, the only way they're going to get those memos is if the Republicans say, give them up, Mr. President. Should they?
BUCHANAN: I don't think they will because then there's going to be another fellow coming down the track here and we're not going to want to do that. So I don't think we should do anything that we wouldn't want to do and have done for Roberts or Luttig or any other judge.
So the key here, though, is to ask her the questions. Ask her what her knowledge is, you know. Ask her questions that will let us know, is she knowledgeable about the history of the court and the big cases, and what they really mean for society as a whole?
KING: We're out of time, so I need a quick yes or no from each of you. Do you actually think it is possible that the president of the United States with a Republican Senate, a Republican president, could lose this one?
BEGALA: I think she could be pressured to pull her name by conservatives. If she gets it, the question I would ask her though...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... ask her under oath, why did she tell David Frum...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: I need a yes or no from her. You're a lawyer.
BUCHANAN: I think if it goes to vote, she'll be confirmed. But I think it may not go to a vote.
KING: Well, that was close to a yes.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: She's the talk of the blogs. Next, we'll find out what they're saying about Harriet Miers when we get the situation online.
And later, searching for answers in that deadly boat accident. Why did a tour boat packed with seniors capsize over the weekend?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: This just in to CNN. A top Pentagon analyst with expertise in Middle East affairs pleaded guilty today to giving classified information to an Israeli embassy official and to members of a pro- Israel lobbying group. During his court hearing outside Washington, Larry Franklin said he was frustrated with the government and had hoped his communications would help influence U.S. policy.
It doesn't happen often -- a Republican president typically bedrock support among conservatives seeing his Supreme Court pick picked apart by some of those fellow conservatives. Harriet Miers' nomination is getting many unexpected comments.
Internet reporters Jacki Schechner, Abbi Tatton here looking at the blogs. Ladies?
JACKI SCHECHNER, CNN INTERNET CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're actually going to start with Abbi on this one, John. She's got the article that everybody's talking about.
ABBI TATTON, CNN INTERNET CORRESPONDENT: That is the George Will column.
Yes, we've been talking here about the conservative blogger reaction over the last couple of days to the Miers nomination and how strongly negative it's been amongst a lot of them. Well, last night they found that they had an ally in conservative columnist George Will, whose post here, his column at the "Washington Post" has everyone talking in the blogs.
Joe Gandelman writes at the moderatevoice.com -- this is a centrist blog. He summed it up like this. Perhaps one of the most devastating columns ever written about the president by a Republican during his whole term. And perhaps for that reason that's why everyone is talking about it.
This site here, memorandum.com, aggregates all the bloggers talking about a certain article at any one point, and this one has been at the top all day, this column. Lots of people on the left and the right -- pretty much balance of people talking about it. On the right, not everyone agreeing, but there's certainly a lot of them.
Patterico.com, this is an L.A. prosecutor on the right who blogs regularly about legal issues, saying "George Will nails it. I wholeheartedly agree".
Others seem to have undergone a conversion. This is acepilots.com, who at first was relieved by the Miers nomination, another conservative; now saying that after reading this column "it's hard to say anything good about this nomination."
SCHECHNER: Some of the conservatives who don't agree with George Will, for example, Paul and John over at powerlineblog.com. Paul saying we shouldn't presume because Bush picked her that she's qualified, but we shouldn't presume the opposite either. John's argument is that Will is way off base here, that she is well within the realm of qualified candidates. The Senate -- it would be improper for them to reject her.
As for the liberals, what are they saying?
Well, the article itself only tangentially skewers Miers. In fact, it is a harsh repudiation of President Bush. From a site called The Peking Duck, they are calling George Will one of "the godfathers of American conservatism," and they are saying, John, that if he has broken rank "you know that there is trouble" for President Bush.
KING: Abbi and Jacki, thank you very much.
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