Return to Transcripts main page

The Situation Room

Baltimore Tunnels Shut Down; Change in U.S. Immigration Policy?; Saddam Hussein Set to Face Trial

Aired October 18, 2005 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer. And you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time.
Happening now, it's 3:00 p.m. at Baltimore's harbor, where the daily commute turned into a very big commotion. There was a security threat involving two tunnels under the harbor. Traffic is now flowing again. An investigation is also under way.

It's also 3:00 p.m. here in Washington, where Homeland Security Secretary Chertoff says illegal immigrants will no longer just be picked up at the nation's borders, then simply let go. Instead, they will be sent back to where they came from.

And it's 10:00 p.m. in Baghdad, where, after 23 years, Saddam Hussein is just a few hours away from facing justice. He'll appear in court for allegedly ordering the torture and massacre of scores of Iraqis as payback for an unsuccessful attempt on his life.

I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

Up first, a developing story we're following, a threat involving two tunnels carrying traffic under the Baltimore Harbor. Traffic is now flowing again, but only after the full closure of one tunnel, the partial closure of another. Although officials say they can't corroborate the threat, they can't discount it either. And they are investigating.

Let's get some more details. CNN's Homeland Security correspondent, Jeanne Meserve, standing by. Jeanne?

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, sources tell CNN that operations are under way right now to find individuals in the Baltimore area. Some sources say the plot could involve a handful of people. Some officials say six. They are described as being of foreign nationality.

The threat information revolved around the possible use of a vehicle-borne improvised explosive device in or around an unspecified Baltimore tunnel, according to sources. Officials describe the information as somewhat specific as to time and of undetermined credibility.

According to one source, the informant who provided the information has been reliable in the past, but this information, which came in the form of a phone call from overseas to the U.S. government late last week, has yet to be corroborated. The decision to close one Baltimore tunnel and reduce traffic in another was made by the Maryland Transit Authority. The Department of Homeland Security and the FBI said, in a joint statement, that they support whatever protective measures state and local authorities choose to take, out of an abundance of caution.

Wolf, back to you.

BLITZER: So, Jeanne, in this particular case, there doesn't seem to be a serious disconnect between federal, local and state authorities, as was the case in New York with the subways a couple weeks ago.

MESERVE: That would be appear to be the case. If there's anything happening below the radar, they are keeping it there, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Jeanne Meserve, reporting for us. Thank you very much.

With the busy evening commute just beginning, let's check in to see how things are going along on the ground.

CNN's Brian Todd is in Baltimore, one of the tunnels, to give us an update on the sense of the situation there. What's it like where you are, Brian?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, you would never know that there was a problem here. I'm just outside the Fort McHenry Tunnel, outside Baltimore. You can see the traffic coming in and out of that tunnel. It is actually relatively light, compared to even a normal day, but that -- you wouldn't know that there was a problem based on this amount of traffic. This is extremely light. They opened this tunnel up just a little bit more than an hour ago, and traffic has been flowing ever since.

Now, again, about three-and-a-half hours ago is when the first signs of the threat occurred. Police started stopping box trucks and searching them just outside these tunnels. That was a little before 11:30 a.m. Eastern Time. Then, they decided to go ahead and close both the tunnels.

The first one to close completely was the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel. It closed completely from about 11:30 a.m. until just a little over an hour ago. The Baltimore -- this tunnel behind me, the Fort McHenry Tunnel, closed from 11:30 -- partially from 11:30 a.m. until about 12:30 p.m. and then completely for another hour after that.

Now, earlier today, the chief of the Maryland Transit Police was very, very cautious about why they decided to close these tunnels and about the nature of the threat.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF GARY MCLHINNEY, MARYLAND TRANSIT POLICE: I cannot speak specifically about the threat at this time. I can tell you that as information develops and as we're able to make that information public, we will release it to the media and to the citizens.

Our number one priority is the safety of the citizens of Maryland and those who travel on our roadways. We will always err on the side of public safety.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TODD: Now, as for the public traffic, the longest backup today was about six miles long. It was just north of here on southbound I- 95, from this Fort McHenry Tunnel, reaching up northward.

There's no word as to how bad the backup was on the Baltimore Beltway -- Beltway. This is Route 695. That's where they were diverting traffic, Wolf. But, as you know -- you have driven this route as well -- this is a major transit point for all East Coast traffic. It could have caused a real nightmare.

BLITZER: Brian Todd reporting for us. We will get back to you, Brian. Thanks very much.

Let's bring in our security analyst, Richard Falkenrath, a former White House deputy, a Homeland Security adviser. What do you make of this scare today? And -- and, apparently, the investigation is continuing. It's not over with yet.

RICHARD FALKENRATH, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Yes. They are still running down all the leads. And they will keep doing that until the threat either washes out or they find something.

I'm a little worried about this, frankly. What it appears as if -- it appears as though the local authorities -- in this case, the Transit Authority Police Department -- is making this decision to close down the tunnels on its own. And the federal government is, basically, passively supporting it. They are saying, yes, we support it, out of an abundance of caution. But they are not really helping them figure out how to interpret this intelligence.

BLITZER: This was another one of these cases where there was uncorroborated, but specific information that was passed along to local authorities, similar to what we saw in New York. We don't -- New York, we now believe, it was a hoax by some informant. But, in this particular case, we don't know what is going on, although the level of specificity was pretty serious.

FALKENRATH: It was very high. It said tunnels in Baltimore. And that's pretty darn specific. And if you're in charge of the security of tunnels in Baltimore, you're going to take action, unless the federal government is there backing you up, saying, no, you don't -- you shouldn't take action based on this information. Jeanne Meserve's reporting that this is a call-in really casts a lot of doubt on this source, as did the federal statement. It was very, very equivocal.

BLITZER: All right. Hold on for one second. I want to shift gears and go -- go to another story that is still developing right now. Some 2,000 people have been urged to evacuate the town of Taunton, Massachusetts, south of Boston, where a 173-year-old dam is in danger of giving way.

The mayor, Robert Nunes, is the -- is joining us on the phone. Mayor, thanks very much for joining us. We have been following this story now for the past 24 hours. What's the latest?

ROBERT NUNES, MAYOR OF TAUNTON, MASSACHUSETTS: The city of Taunton is still in a state of emergency. The condition of the dam at Whittenton Mills has deteriorated over the past eight to 10 hours. Again, we are encouraging the residents who live along the Mill River to evacuate. As I speak, police and fire are patrolling in the Whittenton area to see that -- to make sure that everyone has evacuated. Again, we are strongly encouraging people to do that.

The National Guard is on the scene. They have provided trucks and Humvees. And there are 21 National Guardsmen stationed in the city of Taunton. The Massachusetts State Police, Bristol County Sheriff's Office, MEMA, (INAUDIBLE) that -- we have dive teams, also, on the site.

Governor Romney visited Taunton yesterday and this morning and has pledged his support and his assistance for those of us here in the city of Taunton. I just left the shelter at Taunton High School. There are approximately 60 people there. We are expecting that to increase when some of the evacuees come back to Taunton after a day at work.

Senators Kennedy and Kerry and Congressman Frank, who are our representatives, have been in constant contact with my office. And, again, they will be working with FEMA and the Department of Agriculture. The dam is privately owned. And the owners of the dam have been cooperative and are working with city officials.

BLITZER: Mr. Mayor...

(CROSSTALK)

NUNES: I will have a briefing at 4:00 p.m. here in Taunton.

BLITZER: Mr. Mayor, what's your worst-case scenario, worst-case fear? That 173-year-old dam breaks, what happens?

NUNES: Well, if the dam breaks, we will have massive flooding in the Whittenton neighborhood of Taunton and in our downtown. That's probably about a two-mile stretch. There are a number of businesses along the river, a high school. And, obviously, when -- when we get into the downtown area, we're talking about, you know, a lot of businesses.

BLITZER: And -- and what -- and have -- have experts given you a sense of the likelihood, or the possibility, of that worst case unfolding?

NUNES: That -- that situation is being monitored minute by minute. Dam inspectors from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts are on site, as well as Taunton Fire Department and Police Department officials. So, that is being monitored. We just had a briefing about an hour or so ago. And they will continue to brief us throughout the afternoon and into the evening hours.

BLITZER: Robert Nunes, we will check back with you. He's the mayor of Taunton, Massachusetts.

Good luck to your community in dealing with the crisis, Mr. Mayor. Thanks very much for joining us.

NUNES: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Let's go back to our top story right now, why two tunnels were either closed or partially closed, major tunnels under the Baltimore Harbor, earlier today.

Joining us now live is the police chief of Baltimore, Gary McLhinney. He's joining us from just outside one of those tunnels.

Chief, thanks very much for joining us. Could you talk a little bit about what caused these tunnels to be shut down? What was the nature, specifically, of the threat that you thought, or still think, is out there?

MCLHINNEY: Based on the joint investigation that was being conducted in the Baltimore area for the past several days, information came to me over the -- this morning that required that I act and make the decision to close the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel and limit access to the Fort McHenry Tunnel, in order for us to be able to conduct police operations that would we felt were prudent to be conducted at the time.

BLITZER: Can you tell us where this information was coming from?

MCLHINNEY: I can't comment directly on the source of the information. The investigation is ongoing at this time. I can say that we have been working very closely with the FBI here in the Baltimore area. And we felt -- and I made the decision -- to close the tunnels today, based on the ongoing nature of this investigation and how events were developing early this morning in the Baltimore area. Once it became clear to me that the prudent thing to do would be open those tunnels, because of the course the investigation was taking, I made the decision to reopen the tunnels to traffic.

BLITZER: You're the chief of the Maryland Transit Police. So, what -- what caused you to make that change, to -- to reopen the tunnels? What specific additional information did you get that said, you know what, we can reopen the tunnels right now?

MCLHINNEY: The -- the specific information, we can't go into in detail. But I got to a comfort level that the investigation had proc --proceeded to the point where, whether it was individuals we were looking for or materials we were looking for or anything in that nature, led me to believe that it was now safe to open the tunnels, and that would be the prudent thing to do. So, we -- I made the decision to do that.

BLITZER: Is there a manhunt -- manhunt -- under way in the Baltimore area for handful of individuals who may be foreigners? MCLHINNEY: There -- there -- there is an investigation that is continuing at this time. Officers and agents are on the street. I cannot comment regarding whether -- anybody we might be looking for or not be looking for at this time. But I can tell you that the investigation has proceeded to the point where, obviously, I believed the proper thing to do was open these facilities.

BLITZER: But, the -- but, the threat is still there? Do you still believe there's a threat? Or is it over with?

MCLHINNEY: I do not believe there's a direct threat or an imminent threat at this point to our facilities. I believe that -- and I -- we're encouraging motorists and commuters throughout the area to continue their normal traffic routes. If they use these tunnels to go home on any given day from work or to work, we are encouraging them to continue their normal routine. I believe it is safe to do so.

BLITZER: Is it fair to say, Chief, that you're on the same page as federal authorities right now? There's no disconnect in their assessment, as opposed to your assessment?

MCLHINNEY: No, absolutely not. I made the decision in consultation with federal authorities late last night and early this morning.

This is something that we drill and practice here at the Transportation Authority. I gave them, I believe, the confidence level that we could do this and do it properly. And we made -- once that decision was made, we executed our plan. But there has been no disconnect. The state, federal and local authorities have all been involved in this investigation from the very beginning. And we're involved in this decision as well today.

BLITZER: Chief, thanks very much for joining us. Good luck to you. Gary McLhinney is the chief of the Maryland Transit Police.

Jeanne Meserve is our Homeland Security correspondent. She's watching this, collecting information all the time. What are you picking up, Jeanne?

MESERVE: Wolf, CNN now being told by multiple sources that a couple of individuals are being questioned by authorities in Baltimore. These people have not been arrested. They have not been detained, but they are being questioned at this point in time.

We are also now told by multiple sources that the nationality of the people involved in this alleged plot is Egyptian. The number involved has varied. We have heard estimates of six. We have heard estimates of eight. We have heard the word handful. But, we are now told by multiple sources that the nationality involved is Egyptian.

We also are now told by multiple sources that this alleged plot involved the shipment of explosives into the Port of Baltimore in a container that was labeled cocoa. This was going to be picked up by the plotters. And they were going to construct, apparently, a vehicle- borne improvised explosive device. That's what the information about the threat was, but officials still trying to check out its credibility, still trying to corroborate it.

That's why those interviews are taking place right now in Baltimore.

BLITZER: That's...

MESERVE: Wolf.

BLITZER: But that sounds very, very specific. You heard the chief of the Maryland Transit Police, Jeanne, say that he feels the threat, though, is over with, at least for now. He was speaking cryptically, because I guess some of this information -- information -- is very, very sensitive. But -- but, what you're reporting, just to recap, at least a couple of people are being -- have been apprehended and are being questioned right now?

MESERVE: Not apprehended. They are being questioned. They are not being detained. They have not been arrested. They are simply being questioned at this point in time.

Now, again, everybody is being circumspect about what they say about this situation at this point in time. It may be that authorities feel the threat is diminished at this point in time because these individuals are being questioned by authorities. We don't have all the details yet. We're working to get them.

Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Jeanne, thanks very much.

Richard Falkenrath, you have heard all of this. You're a former deputy Homeland Security adviser at the NSC. What do you think?

FALKENRATH: Well, it's a very specific threat. What Jeanne is telling us is -- is extremely specific. And that's unusual to come from just one source, particularly a call-in. So, I have a feeling that the federal officials are still doubting the credibility of the source. But of course, they're running it down.

The closing of the tunnels, as your interview with the chief revealed, seems to me to be his call, made just because this report came in, not as part of a wider operation, done in concert with the federal investigation. Really, we -- if he had reason to close the tunnels, it hasn't come out yet in any sort of specific way.

BLITZER: All right. Richard, thank you very much. We will continue to monitor this story for our viewers.

Let's check in with Jack Cafferty. He's in New York. He's monitoring this and a lot more. Hi, Jack.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: How you doing, Wolf?

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff is talking tough today in Washington about reforming immigration. He testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee that all illegal immigrants must be returned to their country.

The way it stands now, all illegal Mexican immigrants are returned to Mexico. But the others -- most of them, are released into the population. Some 160,000 non-Mexican illegal aliens come into the country every year. And only about 20 percent of those are returned to the country of origin. The rest of them are given like desk appearance tickets, told to show up at some future date for a hearing. Of course, they never do, and they just assimilate themselves into the population.

The political will to make sweeping changes in immigration law this country is lacking. Texas Senator John Cornyn said today the Judicial Committee is too busy to tackle the issue before next year, at the earliest. Congressional leaders are suggesting an enforcement bill that would ignore the larger issues of reform.

Here's the question. What should be done to reform the immigration system? The e-mail address, CaffertyFile - one word -- @CNN.com, or CNN.com/caffertyfile.

The irony of all of this conversation is, there are laws on the books against illegal immigration that aren't being enforced. We don't need to write new legislation. How about we start by enforcing the laws we have, and closing up the borders, and keeping these people out of the country? The laws have been in place for a very long time. They are just ignored by the government officials that are paid by the taxpayers to enforce them.

Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Jack. Thanks very much. Jack is going to get your e-mail and share some of them with you.

Coming up, word of a major change in U.S. immigration policy. We just heard from Jack Cafferty. He's waiting for your response.

In the meantime, we're going to hear what our own Lou Dobbs has to say. He'll be joining us right here in THE SITUATION ROOM. As you know, he has some strong views on this subject.

Also, a new hurricane churning in the Gulf of Mexico -- where will Wilma -- it's now a hurricane -- where will it eventually strike? We will get the latest forecast.

Plus, the trial of Saddam is now only hours away. We will go live to Baghdad and our chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour, for a preview.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: It's a politically sensitive and potentially explosive issue, changes to the nation's immigration policy. Today, during testimony before a Senate Judiciary Committee studying proposals, the Homeland Security secretary, Michael Chertoff, announced the department's plans to end the practice of simply catching and releasing non-Mexican illegal immigrants and, instead, sending them right back to their homes, with no exceptions.

CNN's Lou Dobbs is well-versed on the issue of illegal immigrants and the U.S. immigration policy. He's joining us now live from New York. Hi, Lou. What do you make -- what do you make of this change?

LOU DOBBS, HOST, LOU DOBBS TONIGHT: Well, it's a -- it's a -- a -- a welcome change, first of all. It's the first time we have had a Homeland Security head speak directly. It's a -- certainly progress. But it's -- as is too often the case in Washington -- it's sometimes, especially in these early stages, difficult to assess whether this is talk or whether it will lead to real action. One hopes the latter. And it's interesting, the timing, I believe.

BLITZER: Listen to what the president just said here in Washington at a ceremony at the White House, signing the Department of Homeland Security appropriations bill. Listen to what he just said about the immigration policy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Congress did good work in helping us build a smarter system, so, we can say to the American people, we're doing our job of securing our border.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: A marvelous system, he says.

You know, he's been hammered, as you well know, by a lot of conservatives, Republicans, who don't like, for example, his proposal to create guest workers...

DOBBS: Right.

BLITZER: ... illegal immigrants who come to the United States, who will be allowed to stay for three years, maybe six years, as guest workers.

DOBBS: Well, Wolf, as -- as -- as you well know, in -- in reacting to what the president just said there, there's a nonpartisan reality that we all have to deal with.

And, whether Democrats and Republicans like it or not, that's -- that's the truth. And the nonpartisan reality, which the president, in those -- in those few words, managed to obfuscate, is, three million illegal aliens crossed our borders last year. They entered the United States illegally.

And if that many people can cross our borders without being stopped, then we don't have border security. And to suggest otherwise flies in the face of reality and is an extraordinary statement for any official in this country to make. And President Bush, lamentably, is not the only official who is trying to sell the idea we have border security, when all of the facts are obvious, straightforward, that we have nothing resembling border security.

BLITZER: What do you do? And this is what you hear from administration officials on the snatch and release policy that's been in existence -- in existence -- right now.

The Mexicans, they send back right away. Let's say that someone is --gets into this country from another country in Central America or South America or Europe or anyplace else, and these other countries say -- from Bolivia or whatever -- you know what, we don't want to take these people back. What do you do with them?

DOBBS: Oh, well, what is being done right now, as you well know, is that they are being caught and released. It's the most absurd -- the federal government can be absurd in many dimensions, but this is a -- right at the height of the -- of the latter in terms of absurdity, catching, apprehending what this year are 150,000 what are called OTMs, and simply letting them back into the system, saying, please. You violated our laws in crossing our borders illegally, but we expect you to abide with our request, please, to enter a court.

No wonder we don't see them. This is not only naivete. It is absolutely complete disrespect for our law on the part of those responsible for enforcing those laws. And the American people continue to tolerate this, while our -- our society, our system of government, is being torn asunder.

BLITZER: Lou is going to have a lot more coming up on this on his program, LOU DOBBS TONIGHT. That airs 6:00 p.m. Eastern. Lou, we will look forward to your program.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, Wolf. Thank you.

BLITZER: Thank you.

Zain Verjee standing by at the CNN Center in Atlanta with a closer look at some other stories making news. Hi, Zain.

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Wolf. We're learning a little more about the views of Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers. While running for the Dallas City Council in 1989, Miers filled out a questionnaire from an anti-abortion group. Now, she said that she'd urged the Texas legislature to ratify a constitutional amendment banning almost all abortions if such an amendment passed Congress.

A key figure in a scandal involving sports and steroids has been sentenced to jail. A U.S. district court has sentenced Victor Conte to four months in prison and four months home confinement. Conte heads the Bay Area Laboratory Cooperative, known as BALCO. He pled guilty to distributing steroids.

Residents of Southern California are coping with mudslides. Severe thunderstorms set off the mudslides, which blocked the main highway from Los Angeles to San Francisco for five hours yesterday. A truck driver died when his tanker crashed and caught fire, one of scores of accidents blamed on the storms. More than 100,000 people lost power. Also in Southern California, a motorist owes his life to police and to good Samaritans. Bystanders flagged down police, who pulled the man out of his burning car on the Hollywood Freeway yesterday. Seconds later, the car was fully engulfed in flames. The man was hospitalized with what police say are pretty moderate injuries.

Wolf, lucky guy.

BLITZER: A very lucky guy.

VERJEE: Yes.

BLITZER: Thanks very much, Zain. We will get back to you soon.

Still to come here in THE SITUATION ROOM, Hurricane Wilma, a potential threat to the U.S. Gulf Coast and expected to grow stronger. We will have the latest forecast.

Plus, Saddam Hussein due in court in just a few hours. We will show you what you can expect, as the trial of the former dictator gets under way.

You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: It's one weather system that, apparently, has much bigger ambitions. First, it was a tropical storm, but now Wilma is officially a hurricane. Where is it now? And what is it doing?

Our meteorologist Jacqui Jeras joining us from the CNN -- CNN Hurricane Headquarters with the latest information. Jacqui, what do we know?

JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Well, we know it's getting stronger, Wolf. And we're expecting this to become a major hurricane in about 24 to 48 hours. So, the next day or two, we could see this reach Category 3 strength. Right now, it's a Category 1. Winds have been increasing slowly and steadily throughout the day, and they are now up to 80 miles per hour.

Hurricane hunters are on their way, flying towards the storm. And we will have fresh information to bring you with the 5:00 advisory. Or if we get an aircraft recon report prior to that, with a change in strength, we will let you know right away.

Here's the location. There you can see the center of the storm, it's moving west-northwest now. It's about 180 miles to the south of Grand Cayman Island.

It's going to be approaching some very warm waters, and that's why we're predicting this to continue to strengthen. It does not appear at this time that it's going to be making landfall across the Yucatan Peninsula or western Cuba. We still can't totally rule it out, but we have pretty good confidence here now that it's going to be staying over the open water and that's going to allow it to stay very strong, possibly a Category 3 strength.

By the weekend, late Friday into early Saturday, it's going to emerge into the Gulf of Mexico and start to take a nice big hook off to the right. Those winds will be changing in the Gulf of Mexico, and that's why we're expecting it to steer toward Florida.

Our best estimate at this time is that it will likely make landfall sometime on Saturday, maybe afternoon, maybe evening, possibly into Sunday morning. Where exactly? Well, this whole big red area is our cone of uncertainty, but our greatest likelihood we think will be somewhere south of Tampa toward the Florida Keys, though it is still possible that it could miss Florida altogether and skirt through the Florida Straits.

But all the computer models really providing very good consensus right now. And so far the storm has been tracking along with those models very well.

BLITZER: All right, we'll watch it every step of the way and hope for the best. Thanks very much, Jacqui.

And remember, this hurricane season doesn't officially end until November 30.

Tomorrow's Powerball lottery drawing is poised to set a record with a possible jackpot -- get this -- of $340 million.

CNN's Ali Velshi has got the "Bottom Line." He wants a piece of that action, don't you, Ali?

ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: Be nice to me today, Wolf. This may be my last day at work if I win that lottery.

BLITZER: You got the winning ticket?

VELSHI: Never mind what these nonsense -- people say, oh, if I win, my life is going to go on the same as it normally does -- not a chance.

$340 million if one person wins. It is a record. The record was actually set in 2000, $363 million, but it was split between two people.

So what we have here is a $340 million jackpot in 27 states, Washington, D.C., and the U.S. Virgin Islands. That's where you can play.

People cross state lines to play this. And your odds of winning the jackpot are 1 in 147 million or so.

Now, take a look at my little rudimentary lottery here, OK. I have taken 12 little balls and I have written on them sort of 12 events, not including the Powerball, to see, you know, what the luck is of drawing one of those events that have worse odds than playing the lottery. There is virtually nothing in the world that's worse than playing the lottery. There' just -- pretty much anything you can ask for, you have a better chance of getting than winning the jackpot in this lottery.

For instance, this one is dating a millionaire. You know what the odds of dating a millionaire are? We are looking at 1 in 215 -- you have a 1 in 215 chance of dating a millionaire.

Let's try -- getting a royal flush in poker on the first five cards. A royal flush in poker on the first five cards, 1 in 650,000. Compare this to 1 in 147 million, 147 million is your chance.

I'm just randomly picking these out, Wolf.

Chance of becoming president of the United States. What do you think, Wolf? Estimate there?

BLITZER: I would say it's slim.

VELSHI: One in 10 million. You're still better. You still have a better chance of becoming a millionaire probably -- of dating a millionaire and becoming president combined than you do of winning this lottery.

Catching a ball at a Major League Baseball game. Your chances of doing that are 1 in 563. You getting the picture that we're not even close to the 1 in 147 million.

BLITZER: I'm getting that picture.

VELSHI: I've got eight more balls in here and you can check in with me later to see if we had any luck at finding anything that has worse odds than winning the jackpot in the Powerball.

The irony of this whole thing is I have been talking to some people who say that only once the jackpot gets above $100 million or so do the rest of us all go out and buy lottery tickets, because just winning the $2 million or $3 million wouldn't be enough for us.

BLITZER: But, Ali, what are the chances of winning if you don't buy a ticket?

VELSHI: Zero.

BLITZER: OK. Well, that's what motivates a lot of people.

VELSHI: That's a good point.

BLITZER: Ali, thanks very much. Ali Velshi. We'll check back with you very, very soon.

Just ahead, Saddam Hussein gets his day in court. The first trial against the former Iraqi leader will begin in just a few hours in Baghdad. We're going to go there live. Christiane Amanpour standing by. And more cases increase concern -- there are even larger fears of a global bird flu pandemic after Romania now reports more cases. We'll tell you what's going on.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: In Iraq, there are two unprecedented events the world is watching. They're counting the votes from Saturday's landmark referendum, but complicating that count is an intended audit. Two crucial provinces that could determine the vote's outcome are apparently among the regions that will be investigated. Officials say partial results show an unusually high number of yes votes.

Meanwhile, all eyes are also on the upcoming trial against Saddam Hussein. He's just a few hours away from appearing in court for allegedly ordering the torture and massacre of scores of Iraqis as payback for an unsuccessful attempt on his life in 1982. Sources tell CNN a five-person trial bench with a presiding judge will conduct the Iraqi special tribunal proceeding inside Baghdad's so-called Green Zone.

Let's get some more specifics now.

Our chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour is in Baghdad. She'll be covering this trial for us. Christiane, set the scene for us.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTL. CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you say, the trial is going to start tomorrow morning Baghdad time in the heavily fortified compound. The security and screenings for all taking part are draconian, and they are really quite concerned that everything goes according to order and that everything is as secure as possible.

We have some pictures of what is now the empty courtroom. It's one of Saddam's old official areas there that's been converted into a courtroom for this trial.

Now, we talked just a while ago before coming on air by phone with Khalil Duleimi, who is Saddam Hussein's chief lawyer, and he is full of complaints about this trial and about the whole nature of the way the Iraqi special tribunal has been set up and about the instructions given to lawyers and the like.

He says that, yes, Saddam will be in court tomorrow. He said he met with him over an hour before we spoke and he said that Saddam Hussein was in high spirits. He said he believed in this case and he said that Iraq was invaded by the United States; this was not based in any international law.

So when we asked him would the U.S. invasion be part of the defense strategy, Duleimi said, yes, that every -- quote -- "non- legitimate action is what we are basing our strategy for the defense of Saddam Hussein beginning tomorrow." Having said that, though, he said also that they would be asking -- the defense team would be asking for an adjournment of not less than three months.

So they are asking for an adjournment of at least three months after tomorrow's opening session, and they're saying that, that is for several reasons. He says that he was not officially told about this whole trial until about 20 or 25 days ago. He says that's not within the laws of the Iraqi Special Tribunal.

And he said, furthermore, that he believes that the defense attorneys, all the Iraqi attorneys, he said, are not sufficiently experienced and prepared in international law and in cases of this sensitive nature. So, he was going to ask for a continuance of at least three months.

We know that the trial that Saddam Hussein first faces is in connection, as you said, with the Dujail massacre back in 1982. And again, the lawyer told us that they do have witnesses -- they have witnesses from the Iraqi people, he said, all factions of the Iraqi people. And he again said that the U.S. invasion of Iraq would be part of the strategy.

He said, for instance, do you think the Fallujah massacre was legal? Do you think what happened in Najaf was legal? What about bombing Iraq back to the Middle Ages? This was his descriptions of some of the actions that have gone on under the U.S. occupation since the war. So you can quite clearly see where they are going to base their strategy.

Wolf.

BLITZER: Christiane Amanpour in Baghdad. Thank you, Christiane, very much.

Let's get some more insight into this upcoming trial. Joining us here in THE SITUATION ROOM, Mark Vlasic. He's a former prosecution lawyer who has participated as an expert in international training courses for Iraqi judges, including those of the Iraqi Special Tribunal. Mark, thanks very much for joining us.

One of Saddam Husseins's lawyers -- and we just heard from Christiane -- says this. He says, "This is a joke. How can we prepare a defense in a few days? At the end of the day it is little more than a political farce and has nothing to do with law. This is Saddam in a lynch court being tried by enemies."

Does Abdel-Haq Alani have a point?

MARK VLASIC, FMR. PROSECUTION LAWYER: I don't believe so. I think that the trial is something that's been in the process of being put together for many, many months. There's experts from around the world that have been working with the Iraqi judges to further their experience and their understanding of international law.

BLITZER: But the defense lawyers say they haven't gotten any of the specific charges. They've had no time to go through the evidence. As you know -- you're a lawyer here in this country -- they need time to prepare a case. And they just haven't gotten those kinds of specific details.

VLASIC: And tomorrow we will have the details. We'll have the indictment read out to everyone around the world. And the lawyers will have a chance to prepare their case. And I have no doubt tomorrow, while it will be the first day of the oral hearings for the trial, they'll be focused on procedural matters. And the chances of it starting off with witnesses tomorrow, I think, are very slim.

BLITZER: So, when they say they need a three-month delay in order to review the evidence against Saddam Hussein, that's a fair request?

VLASIC: You know, I think it's up to the judge to determine because they've actually seen the case file and seen the dossier.

BLITZER: The judge has, but the criminal lawyers haven't.

VLASIC: Right. And the criminal defense lawyers will have an opportunity to view that. And I'm sure they will raise the objections and find a mutually appropriate time to hold the case.

BLITZER: You're pretty optimistic on that. Let's get some other quotes in here.

Donna Arzt, a law professor, former adviser to the U.N. War Crimes Court -- you may know her -- she says this is in today's "USA Today": "This was built up as a 'trial of the century.' The international community was going to be involved, and the expectations were high. Now, there are serious questions about its legitimacy. It's starting to look like a vendetta."

VLASIC: I think that the Iraqi tribunal has provisions in its statute to include international observers and advisers. And I think one thing that should be really thought about is, for those people criticizing the court or having concerns about the court, volunteering their services to help the court in order to process this case.

BLITZER: Wouldn't it be smart, though, for the Iraqi jurists in this particular case to bend over backwards and show the international community, even Saddam Hussein, the so-called Butcher of Baghdad, who's got a lot of blood on his hands -- even he will have all the legal rights that any criminal defendant should have?

VLASIC: And I wouldn't be surprised if the if the judges do this. We have not heard from the judges in the trial chamber of this particular case and tomorrow we will. And I'm optimistic that they are well aware of the significance of the trial and want to make sure it is not only fair but perceived to be fair.

BLITZER: Mark Vlasic, thanks very much for joining us.

VLASIC: Thank you very much.

BLITZER: Appreciate it.

Up next, growing concern in Europe over bird flu. We'll show you what steps are being taken to prevent the virus from spreading. Also coming up at the top of the hour, the latest on the threat that shut down a major interstate tunnel.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The Swiss company that makes Tamiflu, the best known treatment for bird flu, is poised to increase production. Roche says it now has approval to build a new U.S. plant to make the drug. And it says it will cooperate with efforts to sublicense manufacturing of the drug.

Meanwhile, Romania is reporting another dozen cases of bird flu. And with the virus, also reported in Greece and Turkey, European Union officials are growing increasingly concerned.

Our Zain Verjee is joining us once again from the CNN Center in Atlanta with more on this story. Zain?

VERJEE: Wolf, Europeans are preparing, really, for a worst-case scenario. They're taking immediate precautions against the spread of bird flu. Officials there are emphasizing that the avian flu virus has not shown up in humans in Europe.

JACK STRAW, BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY: A huge amount of effort is going in to provide advice, assistance to Greece, to Romania, to Turkey, to the Russian Federation, and to other countries around the world -- a great deal of effort to ensure that there are adequate contingency plans to deal with any transfer of avian flu to humans.

VERJEE (voice over): British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw says part of those plans are stockpiling Tamiflu, the antiviral medication that's the best treatment available right now for bird flu. Straw says Britain has only three and a half million doses, with 14 million more on order.

Although it's not a vaccine for bird flu, the World Health Organization is recommending that governments stockpile enough of the drug to treat 25 percent of their populations. The EU health minister says fewer than half the Union's member nations have met that goal.

And the manufacturer, the Swiss pharmaceutical company, Roche, is struggling to keep up with the surging demand for Tamiflu. Today the company announced it will build a new plant in the United States to increase production.

Companies in some countries say that despite Roche's patent, they are going to produce their own version of Tamiflu to help the situation. Until then, EU officials can only hope to keep the virus from spreading.

Romanian officials are spraying vehicles leaving the region where the virus has been found. And in Greece, officials have temporarily banned poultry exports from the Aegean islands, where a suspected case showed up on a small farm on the isle of Annousos (ph). DIMITRIS KOMNINARIS, GREEK ISLAND FARMER (through translator): We are afraid because what we were hearing about is now happening to us.

VERJEE: And there's growing concern outside Europe, as well, Wolf. Jordan is announcing plans to disinfect all poultry farms, while Sudan in Africa is banning all poultry imports as well.

Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Zain. Thank you very much.

For a look at how the world is following the bird flu story on web and some practical advice before you cook your next chicken dinner, here's our Internet reporter Jacki Schechner. She's checking the situation online. Jacki?

JACKI SCHECHNER, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Well, Wolf, anyone who knows me, knows I'm not a very good cook, but I haven't killed anybody yet. So, who better to give you tips on how to keep your food safe?

We talked to the National Chicken Council today. They have a Web site online, nationalchickencouncil.com. They have a very good Q&A section. And it is updated regularly. They wanted to emphasize that consumers in the United States have virtually no chance of contracting avian flu. There are no cases so far. We're not a big importer of things like poultry and eggs. So, don't be too concerned.

Well, what can you do if there should happen at some point to be a virus? They say the heat of normal cooking will destroy that virus. What does that mean? Temperatures of 70 degree Celsius or above.

Other safety tips from the World Health Organization -- this is who.int online: "Five Keys to Safer Food." They have a poster. It will help drill in those tips and things like keeping it clean, separating your raw food.

And, finally, wanted to show you the Partnership for Food Safety Education Online, its "Fight Back," bac.org. And they have things like this: "How long should you wash your hands to send bacteria down the drain?

What do you think it is, Wolf, five, 10, 15 or 20 seconds?

BLITZER: Twenty seconds.

SCHECHNER: There you go. The longer the better.

BLITZER: See how smart I am?

(LAUGHTER)

BLITZER: Shocking even to me. But I'm glad to hear, Jacki, that you haven't killed anybody yet with your cooking. That's some very encouraging news.

Up next... SCHECHNER: I didn't say ill, I just said not dead.

BLITZER: All right. Thanks, very much.

Up next, what should be done to reform the country's immigration system? It's our question of the hour. Jack Cafferty is standing by with your e-mail. That's coming up.

Also, in our next hour, we'll update you on the threat that closed the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel, causing a traffic nightmare.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Our Jack Cafferty has been going through your e-mail this hour. He's joining us once again from New York. Jack?

CAFFERTY: Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said today that all illegal immigrants must be returned to their country. But one senator, a guy from Texas, said that the Judiciary Committee is too busy to tackle the issue of immigration reform before next year at the earliest. And congressional leaders in the House and Senate have suggested that the best they could hope for is some sort of enforcement bill that would ignore the larger issues of reform.

The question is, what should be done to reform the immigration system? That would be in addition to enforcing the existing laws, which nobody seems to do.

Cheri in Tucson writes: "To enforce the immigration policies on the books since the 1920s, we need to replace the congressmen who are too busy or who fear special interests in the 2006 mid-term elections with people who have the will and the guts to enforce the laws on the books."

John in Gilbert, Arizona: "Immigration reform won't happen because American businesses want cheap labor. As long as the Bush administration favors business interests over enforcing security at our borders, our borders are an open door to anyone, including al Qaeda."

Steven writes: "There's a good reason not to enforce the current immigration laws. You and most of my countrymen would be screaming bloody murder if they went into a supermarket and found that lettuce was $5 a head because it was picked by unionized American labor. The contribution that illegal immigrants make to our society far outweighs the harm. I say we should open the borders."

Roger in Leesburg, Florida, says: "I think we should start from scratch, evacuate everybody from the country and then have them re- enter with the proper identification."

Rex in Toronto writes: "Immigration? I'm against it. Sure, we were all immigrants once, but we were also all children once, and I'm against them, too." I think Rex may be on to something there. BLITZER: Rex in Toronto. All right, thanks very much, Jack. We'll get back to you very soon.

Still ahead, the threat that paralyzed highway traffic in Baltimore. Was it actually credible or was the shutdown of the tunnels justified? We're going to go there, live.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: It's almost time for markets to close and the closing bell. Let's check in with our Ali Velshi for that and more. Ali, what are you working on?

VELSHI: Wolf, we're getting, for the first time, reports on how an outbreak of avian flu would actually affect the economy. And what I'm reading is a report out by Dr. Sherry Cooper, chief economist at BMO Nesbitt Burns.

And the way you put a price on these things is by looking at everybody who could possibly be involved, from the makers of the vaccine to the companies most affected, to the costs that the government would incur. And we're getting closer to that idea.

Now, first and foremost is -- Dr. Cooper makes the point from her research that we are watching this pandemic unfold in real-time, almost in slow motion, which is something the world has never had the opportunity to do -- which means that there are opportunities to try and fend this thing off as much as possible.

Now, we know we've seen a case of bird flu in birds in Greece. We have -- Zain told you about Tamiflu. That is this drug. It's available here in the United States by prescription. But what's happening right now is very few companies making vaccines for avian flu, and we're looking at how we can get more companies to make this. That's going to be what affects the outcome of this flu, if it does become a pandemic.

But Dr. Cooper warns the distance between it emerging in humans and spreading into a pandemic is very fast. There are a number of companies who make vaccines, they make anti-virals. And to watch out in particular for the companies that will be affected by this if people stop buying their products. Particularly the poultry and meat packers in the United States are in danger of falling subject to people not buying things because of the fear of avian flu.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com