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The Situation Room
Libby Indicted, Resigns; Rove Remains Under Investigation
Aired October 28, 2005 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: It's 5:00 p.m. here in Washington and you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time. We're bringing you special coverage of the CIA leak bombshell happening now.
A top aide indicted for perjury, obstruction of justice and making false statements. Lewis "Scooter" Libby has resigned as Dick Cheney's chief of staff and now he is finally speaking out.
One of President Bush's chief adviser, the other chief adviser, no charges yet for Karl Rove, but he remains until investigation and until a cloud. The president says he'll remain focused on the many issues facing the country, but what's next for his administration as crisis follows crisis. Can it overcome the scandal now swirling at its highest levels? I'm Wolf Blitzer, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Dark days over at the White House that's always touted its ethics and integrity. A top aide to both the president and vice president, indicted, accused of lying, perjury, obstruction of justice, facing 30 years potentially in prison. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, until this morning, Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, was indicted in a case the special counsel says threatened the nation's security.
We have several reports. Our Elaine Quijano is over at the White House. Fredricka Whitfield is following Vice President Cheney In Georgia but let's begin with CNN's Brian Todd, he is over at the federal courthouse where the indictments were handed up earlier today. Brian?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, it's been a dramatic day in several corners of this town, but it came to a peak right here earlier this afternoon when prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald spoke candidly to reporters about his two-year investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (voice-over): Special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald acknowledged no one is charged with actually leaking the name of CIA officer Valerie Plame-Wilson to the media, but the prosecutor believes Vice President Cheney's now former chief of staff, Lewis "Scooter" Libby, intentionally misled a grand jury and FBI investigators who were trying to follow a chain of information from the White House to at least four reporters.
PATRICK FITZGERALD, SPECIAL COUNSEL: At the end of the day, what appears is Mr. Libby's story, that he was at the tail independence of a chain of phone calls passing on from one reporter what he heard from one reporter to another was not true, it was false. He was at the beginning of the chain of the phone calls, the first official to disclose this information outside the government to a reporter and then he lied about it afterwards under oath and repeatedly.
TODD: Now the man once considered one of the most powerful figures in a very tight White House inner circle must defend himself against one count of obstruction of justice, two counts of perjury and two counts of making false statements. Libby has previously denied leaking Valerie Wilson's name to the media and his attorneys have said he never committed any criminal conduct, but Libby resigned shortly before the indictments were announced.
Fitzgerald did not bring charges against anyone else, including White House deputy chief of staff Karl Rove, who had been implicated in the scandal.
KARL ROVE, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: I'm going to have a great flight and fantastic weekend, hope you do, too.
TODD: But the prosecutor indicated he is not quite finished.
FITZGERALD: I will not end of investigation until I can look anyone in the eye and tell them we have carried out our responsibility sufficiently.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: Now, the maximum penalty that Scooter Libby could face if convicted on all charges, 30 years in prison. Ambassador Joe Wilson, whose wife's identity was at the center of the investigation made a statement not long ago, saying, quote, "this is not a day to celebrate." Wilson said the indictment, in his words, is an important step in the criminal justice process. Wolf?
BLITZER: Brian Todd reporting. Thank you, Brian, very much.
Just a short while ago we got a statement from Lewis Libby about the charges against him and his resignation as the vice president's chief of staff, calling this a sad day. Libby said, let me quote now, "I have spent much of my career working on behalf of the American people and for the safety of our citizens. I have conducted my responsibilities honorably and truthfully, including with respect to this investigation. It is with regret that I step aside from that service today. I am confident that at the end of this process, I will be completely and totally exonerated."
In a statement of his own, Lewis Libby's lawyer, Joseph Tate offered clues about his line of defense. Listen to this, this is from Tate. "This case began because of concerns that someone had intentionally and knowingly disclosed the identity of a covert agent. The Special Counsel has concluded that Mr. Libby did not violate this law."
Tate goes on to say, quote, "As lawyers, we recognize that a person's recollection and memory of events will not always match those of other people, particularly when they are asked to testify months after the events occurred. This is especially true," he goes on to say, "in the hectic rush of events, issues and events at a busy time for our government. We will defend vigorously against these charges."
That statement from Joseph Tate, the lawyer for Lewis "Scooter" Libby.
It appears Libby is the first sitting White House officials to be indicted in some 130 years. Just over an hour ago, President Bush reacted to the indictment. Let's go straight to CNN's Elaine Quijano. She is over at the White House and has more.
Elaine?
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Wolf. Officials here at the White House are expressing a mixture of relief and sadness -- relief that the president's top political adviser, Karl Rove, was not indicted. At the same time, sadness that the vice president's now former chief of staff Scooter Libby was. And as you mentioned just a short time ago, President Bush commented on the indictment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today I accepted the resignation of Scooter Libby. Scooter's worked tirelessly on behalf of the American people, and sacrificed much in the service to this country. He served the vice president and me through extraordinary times in our nation's history.
Special counsel Fitzgerald's investigation and ongoing legal proceedings are serious, and now the proceedings -- the process moves into a new phase. In our system, each individual is presumed innocent and entitled to due process and a fair trial. While we're all saddened by today's news, we remain wholly focused on the many issues and opportunities facing this country. I have got a job to do, and so do the people that work in the White House. We've got a job to protect the American people, and that's what we'll continue working hard to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUIJANO: And the president went on to say that he will be working to name a new Supreme Court nominee soon. On that front, accompanies him to Camp David today, his White House counsel Harriet Miers, who, of course, withdrew her name from consideration. Also the president's chief of staff Andy Card. The White House very anxious to put this week behind him, to focus on what is ahead. That announcement, by the way, on another Supreme Court nominee, could come, Wolf, within a matter of days.
Wolf?
BLITZER: Elaine Quijano at the White House. Thank you, Elaine.
The Vice President Dick Cheney is also reacting to the indictment and departure of his trusted aide and long-time friend. Mr. Cheney is in Georgia today, our Fredricka Whitfield is joining us now live from Perry, Georgia with more.
Hi, Fred.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello to you, Wolf.
Well, in less than 30 minutes, the vice president is expected to arrive here in Perry Georgia, for a political fund-raiser. This visit along with two other visits throughout Georgia, in Savannah and the Robins Air Force Base, obviously being overshadowed by today's indictment as well as the resignation of Cheney's chief of staff, Lewis "Scooter" Libby.
Accepting that resignation, Cheney's heart was heavy, he said, in his statement that was released earlier today, saying with deep regret he accepts the resignation, calling Libby, quote "one of the most capable and talented individuals I have ever known. He has given many years of his life to public service and served our nation tirelessly with great distinction," saying that Libby is innocent until proven guilty. Cheney, of course, underscored in his statement that he is not going to comment any further on the charges.
He is expected to arrive here by about the bottom of the hour. He's expected to speak to the audience of about 175 people here, all paying about $250 a plate for this political fund-raiser, but it's not expected that he is going to comment any further on Lewis "Scooter" Libby, the resignation and the indictment. From here, Cheney is likely to head back to the Washington area. Wolf?
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Fredricka Whitfield reporting for us in Georgia.
Up ahead, President Bush may take some clues on how to move forward by looking to the past. I'll talk with former Reagan White House chief of staff Ken Duberstein about crisis management at the White House.
And the special counsel suggests the CIA leak was harmful to national security. I'll have a top former antiterrorism export about that, Richard Clarke, he'll be here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
And now that Scooter Libby faces potential fines and time in prison, how might he defend himself in court? I'll ask some legal experts. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. Here in the political center of the United States, that would be Washington, DC, virtually everyone is buzzing about today's indictment of Scooter Libby. Let's talk about it a little bit with our chief national correspondent John King, who is here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
John, you and I have both covered a lot of these stories over these years. This was a very dramatic day. I think it lived up to all of the anticipation.
JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It did, on two fronts. Number One, Karl Rove, the president's right-hand man gets to keep his job. He is not indicted today. He remains, though, under the cloud, although very interesting the special prosecutor making clear that he wants to wrap it up quickly, as quickly as possible.
The Rove team says they think that will be just a matter of a week or two. We'll see how that one goes.
And in terms of Scooter Libby, an indispensable man to the vice president for a long time. He now has resigned. He is, of course, as everyone has said, presumed innocent. If you read the indictment, Wolf, it is stunning to the degree, as you've noted throughout the day, Scooter Libby is a man who has had a security clearance for years, dating back to his days at the Pentagon. He's an extremely established attorney in town, he's a very smart man. If you read the indictment, I don't want to say this, it will sound impolite, if you will, but if this is true, a very smart man did very stupid things.
You recall Sandy Berger had to cop a plea agreement, because he went into a room during the whole 9/11 investigation, went into a room with classified documents, stuffed something in his pants and took them out. A very smart man doing a not very smart thing. Smart people sometimes do that when they were loyal politically to somebody.
And many are speculating that somehow Scooter Libby thought if this is true, he had to do these thing to protect the vice president. He was saying he learned the name of Valerie Plame from reporters when they knew there were documents from the State Department to him that had that name on it.
Now, the White House is saying, people close to Scooter Libby are saying that he didn't recall, that is going to be a very tough case if all this is true, for a man to be known as smart as he is, known to have the history of having handled sensified (ph), classified information, known for keeping the painstaking methodical records that he has kept. It is going to be a tough case. When you read the indictment, if you know the man, it is stunning to think he could have done those things knowing what we know he knows.
BLITZER: All right, John, stand by, because I want to continue this. Our Mary Snow is in New York watching all of this and getting reaction from the American public. Mary, what are you picking up?
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, you know Washington was on pins and needles for today's announcement. We were curious for figure out how the rest of America is reacting. We sent out cameras to seven cities. Here's some of what we found out.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW (voice-over): Key players, Lewis "Scooter" Libby and Karl Rove have had practically their every move captured on tape in recent days, even trips for coffee by special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald were watched as interest in the CIA leak probe hit a fever pitch. With the investigation veiled in secrecy for almost two years, recent headlines have splashed across the nation's newspapers, anticipating developments. And with reporters like Judith Miller a part of the probe, the media has become part of the story. Outside the world of Washington, in Denver, Colorado, some say the details aren't as closely watched.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably more of an east coast issue than it is out here, this part of the country. I think more people are concerned with what's going on in Iraq and how the government's currently handling that situation.
SNOW: But others say they've been awaiting the outcome.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think a lot of people don't understand it, quite frankly, but I think it is going to affect the administration.
SNOW: In Miami, still reeling from Hurricane Wilma, some say they are not upset the leak probe is overshadowing the plight.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that really Washington news needs to be, I think a lot of people aren't as informed as they should be.
SNOW: In Chicago, where special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald is based as a U.S. attorney, some felt strongly about protecting CIA operatives.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think our country needs resources for information, and we can't get those resources and keep them safe if somebody's going to leak them.
SNOW: As to the question of why the case ever leaked to a reporter matters to the general public ...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe there's an implication of what the political situation is, and it goes back to the very first part of 2000 and the war in Iraq.
SNOW: New Yorker Dion Telec (ph), tells on a scale of 1 to 10, he rates the significance a 3.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think there's other things that need to be addressed right now.
SNOW: Such as?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Such as, so many soldiers are dying in Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: And from main street to Wall Street, where there is yet another reaction, the Dow rallied 168 points, some on Wall Street say that was due in part to the fact that there was relief that Karl Rove wasn't indicted. Wolf?
BLITZER: All right, Mary. Thanks very much. The markets speak as they always do.
Up ahead, he used to work for the Bush administration, but what does he have to say about today's indictment? What does it mean for his former boss? That would be the antiterrorism expert Richard Clarke. He'll be here in THE SITUATION ROOM. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Lewis, "Scooter" Libby, the vice president's chief of staff, now former chief of staff, indicted, five counts earlier today. We're covering the story. Let's get some analysis of what's going on. John King and Candy Crowley are still here in THE SITUATION ROOM. We're joined by Ken Duberstein, who was a chief of staff for the Reagan White House, knows White Houses in crisis right well.
Remind our viewers, you came in right after Iran/Contra, they needed some new blood, they brought you in to take charge and you helped Ronald Reagan finish off his term in a relative upbeat way.
KEN DUBERSTEIN, FORMER REAGAN CHIEF OF STAFF: Well, when President Reagan fired Don Regan, he brought in Howard Baker and Frank Carlucci and a little known general called Colin Powell and myself to fundamentally help him in those last two years.
Remember, Wolf, he was a 37 percent in the polls, lower than even where George W. Bush is today, and he left at 68 percent, the highest of any two-term president at the end of his presidency.
BLITZER: So tell us what lessons George W. Bush must learn from the Ronald Reagan experience that you went through.
DUBERSTEIN: Certainly he need some fresh blood, he needs to focus on big, bold things, as we did, whether it was the Soviet Union or welfare reform, or the Canada Free Trade Agreement. You need to start reestablishing that you can be king of the hill and win some things on the Hill. I think that is all crucial things.
But the fundamental is, you have to go to the American people and say, you know, it was in my house that some things happened. Ronald Reagan took mea culpa, did a mea culpa ...
BLITZER: On Iran/Contra.
DUBERSTEIN: He explained to the American people, and hi poll numbers went up seven points overnight. But by bringing in some fresh blood to augment a very good staff, what he did was reestablish the credibility going forward with big, bold new ideas.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I was going to say, you know this president, and probably you know former President Reagan a little bit better, but they're very different people. And I wonder if you see any signs within this White House that George Bush is willing to bring in some new blood?
And I also think that Ronald Reagan, there was this reservoir of goodwill for him, even in bad times. People kind of liked him, they hated his policies, but they liked him. I'm not sure we aren't in a different time now where, A, people are more skeptical, cynical and you can't get those polls to go up seven points overnight.
DUBERSTEIN: Every president and everybody in the White House understands there's only one person that's indispensable in any White House and that's the president. And sometimes you have to do what you don't really want to do, but you must do. I think there are an awful lot of highly qualified people in the White House, but a second term, some people start getting tired, they've been there for five years. You need that new spark.
I'm not suggesting any wholesale changes, but I'm suggesting the staff be augmented, as Ronald Reagan did with Howard baker and Colin Powell and Carlucci and myself.
KING: And the president have this moment with the American people where he said this happened in my house, something bad happened in my house, I take full responsibility, at the same time he is saying Scooter Libby is innocent until proven guilty and Karl Rove, at least for a matter of weeks remains under investigation? How do you deal with that? You can't absolve or try to turn the page when this chapter is not done.
DUBERSTEIN: But I think the American people are looking for some acknowledgement of accountability and responsibility. This is nothing that the president of the United States did. It's nothing that the vice president did. These are some -- a staff problem with Scooter Libby, and yet everybody says the buck stops here, it stops in the Oval Office.
I think the president has to stand up for that, and say to the American people, if mistakes were made, there is an indictment, we're still having a trial, he is innocent -- Scooter is innocent until proven guilty, but if it happened, it happened on my watch.
BLITZER: If Scooter Libby did in fact commit perjury, lie before the grand jury, there are three possibility explanations. His explanation, which we heard from his attorney, an honest mis - he didn't remember exactly how this unfolded. He thought he heard it from Tim Russert and Judy Miller and Matt Cooper, he didn't remember that he heard it from others in the government.
That's his explanation. The other explanation is he's lying to protect himself, he was afraid that the more serious charge of releasing the identity of a covert officer could be used against him, or he's lying to protect the vice president of the United States. What do you think of those three explanations? Because the transcripts will show that what he said was not necessarily true, for whatever reason.
DUBERSTEIN: I think everybody has to stop hyper ventilating and wait for the trial to go forward, and then we'll find out what happened. We'll find out from a jury whether or not his story holds up or not.
BLITZER: You know Scooter Libby, you've known him ... DUBERSTEIN: Not all that well ...
BLITZER: But you know he's a very diligent, detail-oriented kind of lawyer.
DUBERSTEIN: Absolutely of the first rate. I mean, across the board, bright, aggressive, smart, savvy, understands White Houses, understands the political situation, nobody's fool.
BLITZER: If this president were to say Ken Duberstein, you helped Ronald Reagan when he was in trouble, I need your help right now, come back to the White House, what would Ken Duberstein say?
DUBERSTEIN: He would say never say never, but the answer is no.
BLITZER: Ken Duberstein being honest, as he always is.
KING: Is there a broader problem for the president? Put this aside for a minute, though. He's lost loyalty on Capitol Hill, something he had throughout the first term, whether it was Harriet Miers or whether you want to talk about any other policies, including the war in Iraq, where Republicans are starting to ask some of the tough questions, too. The president and the party have a discipline problem, if you will, for lack of a better term, is that not true?
DUBERSTEIN: Yeah, but one of the things, a lesson from Reagan in his second term, the polls are down, the lesson is you of course start reaching out even more broadly than even your base. Go to the Democrats. They may not say yes, but you need to start broadening that reservoir in order to get votes.
You, of course, have to stick with your base, but you also have to broaden it at the same time. You need to do a lot more cultivation. I think Bush you're going to see starting to do that, whether it's the State of the Union address or hopefully before that coming up in order to expand his chips.
BLITZER: Ken Duberstein, thanks very much. Unfortunately we were out time. Ken Duberstein, former White House chief of staff.
Candy, thanks to you, and John King as usual as well.
Coming up, acknowledging the problem but vowing to keep going, President Bush reacted to today's indictment of a top White House official. We'll tell you exactly what the president said.
And antiterrorism expert Richard Clarke weighing in on the indictment. I'll get his reaction when we return. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. A little while ago, President Bush reacted to the indictment of Lewis "Scooter" Libby and departure of the vice president's chief of staff, but expressed a desire to move on. Here are his brief remarks.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BUSH: Today I accepted the resignation of Scooter Libby.
Scooter has worked tirelessly on behalf of the American people and sacrificed much in the service of this country. He served the vice president and me through extraordinary times in our nation's history. Special counsel Fitzgerald's investigation and ongoing legal proceedings are serious, and now the proceedings - the process moves into a new phase. In our system, each individual is presumed innocent and entitled to due process and a fair trial.
While we're all saddened by today's news, we remain wholly focused on the many issues and opportunities facing this country. I got a job to do and so do the people who work in the White House. We got a job to protect the American people. And that's what we will continue working hard to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The president speaking just before leaving on Marine One for Andrews -- for Camp David, where he is spending the weekend.
Richard Clarke served under four American presidents as an antiterrorism expert. But he broke with the White House over Iraq and the war on terrorism. He's -- he's the author of a new novel, a novel called "Scorpion" -- "The Scorpion's Gate," just come out.
He's joining us here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Richard Clarke, thanks very much for joining us.
RICHARD CLARKE, FORMER COUNTERTERRORISM ADVISER: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: You remember those early days, the first days of the -- of -- of this Bush administration, when everyone had to take a pledge to make sure they operated under the highest standards.
Listen briefly to some of that. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So, I would ask you now all to raise your right hand and to repeat after me.
I -- state your name.
(CROSSTALK)
CHENEY: ... will support and defend the Constitution of the United States.
UNIDENTIFIED MALES AND FEMALES: ... will support and defend the Constitution of the United States.
CHENEY: ... against all enemies, foreign and domestic. UNIDENTIFIED MALE AND FEMALES: ... against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
CHENEY: That I will bear -- bear -- bear true faith and allegiance to the same.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AND FEMALES: That I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same.
CHENEY: That I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AND FEMALES: That I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation...
CHENEY: ... or purpose of evasion...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AND FEMALES: ... or purpose of evasion...
CHENEY: ... and that I will well and faithfully discharge...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AND FEMALES: ... and that I will well and faithfully discharge...
CHENEY: ... the duties of the office on which I'm about to enter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AND FEMALES: ... the duties of the office on which I'm about to enter.
CHENEY: So help me God.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AND FEMALES: So help me God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Richard Clarke, you were in that room when that was being done, weren't you?
CLARKE: I was in that room or a similar room. We all took that oath about the same time. All the White House staff did.
BLITZER: So, give us your perspective on what has happened today from someone who not only served in this administration, but several other administrations.
CLARKE: Well, several other administrations that also had White House scandals.
And I think there are two reactions. One is, you have to realize that this is a personal tragedy for Scooter and his family. Whatever else is going on, that's going on. And Scooter Libby didn't come to Washington to do something wrong. He came here, giving up what could have been a lucrative law career, to help the nation.
Now, something happened along the way, and I'm not going to be the judge of that. But it is tragic, what's happening to him personally.
BLITZER: You know him.
CLARKE: I -- I have known him for a long time.
BLITZER: What's he like?
CLARKE: Well, he's a very intense man. And he has very strong beliefs, which I disagree with, certainly about Iraq. But he's not an evil person.
And it's tragic that a man who came to Washington to serve the people has ended up this way. And it's tragic, because it keeps happening, administration after administration, to basically good people. And that's the other reaction, which is -- I teach government at the Kennedy School at Harvard. And my students want to go into government, but they see this happening over and over and over again, and they wonder, maybe they should go into business or maybe they should do something else.
And we are losing really good people that we need in government because of the constant recurrence of these scandals.
BLITZER: If, in fact, he did lie, as charged, before a grand jury, why do think he would do that?
CLARKE: Well, I -- I don't know the details of the case, Wolf. I just wish there was some other vehicle that we had to deal with things like this other than criminal process.
Could we have a truth and reconciliation commission, as South Africa has and -- and Salvador and others? There should be some other vehicle.
BLITZER: But -- but let me interrupt this, because you know the intelligence community. If someone went ahead and released the identity of a clandestine CIA officer...
CLARKE: Sure. Well, that's...
BLITZER: ... that is a very serious matter.
CLARKE: That's a very serious matter, with which, apparently, Scooter is not being charged.
So, my concern is, A, with him personally, and, B, with the poisoning of the political process that these recurring scandals always have and the effect that has on getting good people to serve.
BLITZER: He's not -- he wasn't charged about that, but that was the start of the cause of the investigation.
CLARKE: Right.
BLITZER: When the CIA referred the matter to the Justice Department, clearly, some people at the CIA were concerned that Valerie Plame Wilson's name was released. But then a -- the charge is that, in the course of the investigation, he committed perjury, made false statements and obstructed justice.
CLARKE: Right. And I'm not going to -- I don't know the details well enough to -- to say what -- anything about that.
I just think that we have to understand that the pernicious effect that every president having his White House staff or the president himself being investigated and dragged through the mud has on getting good people. We don't have very high-quality people in a lot of federal agencies anymore. And you can see the results.
BLITZER: They're not going to make as much money as they could in the private sector...
CLARKE: No. They...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: ... or working for a big law firm.
CLARKE: Oh, they make a quarter. They make...
BLITZER: Scooter Libby could have made a fortune working for a big Washington law firm.
CLARKE: He could have made $1 million a year. Instead, he's making $150,000.
BLITZER: Which is a significant pay cut.
"Sometimes, you can tell more truth through fiction." That's on the cover of your book, "The Scorpion's Gate," a novel.
CLARKE: A novel.
BLITZER: All right. Tell -- tell us a little bit about the truth that you tell through fiction.
CLARKE: Well, when I was in the White House, when I wanted to get the attention of Cabinet members or senior officials, rather than giving them just another memo, I would ask them to play a game, a tabletop exercise, in the real the situation room -- this, by the way, is not the situation room -- in the real the situation, and ask them to project forward four or five years, give them a set of facts, extrapolated from today, and then say, you have to make decisions in a crisis five years from now with these facts that are just a little bit beyond today's headlines.
That's what this book does, in the form of a thriller, in the form of a fast-paced novel. It puts us in the Middle East five years from now, where China's oil demand is increasing; we're butting heads with China over the future of Middle Eastern oil; Saudi Arabia has experienced instability, much higher instability than it has in the last few years; Iran and its secret organization, the Qods Force, which is real, which is real, and attacked the American air base at Khobar, Saudi Arabia, and had a role in the attacks on the Jewish centers in Buenos Aires.
Qods Force is now playing a great role in Iraq. We know that. And so Qods Force is a factor in this future five years from now.
BLITZER: So, this -- for those who love political thrillers with an element of truth, this is a -- a book you might want to read.
CLARKE: A lot of truth in it.
BLITZER: "Sometimes, you can tell more truth through fiction." Richard A. Clarke writes "The Scorpion's Gate."
We remember your other book, "Against All Enemies," which was nonfiction, as opposed to fiction.
Richard Clarke, thanks very much for joining us.
CLARKE: Thank you.
BLITZER: This may not be the real situation room, but it's our SITUATION ROOM. We want to get into the real one over in the West Wing one of these days.
Still to come, the vice president and his now former chief of staff, a professional relationship now severed by an indictment -- we will take a closer look at the history between them.
And the courtroom drama has just begun. Where does the CIA leak prosecution go from here? And how much farther might the case reach into the White House, if at all?
Stay with us.
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(END VIDEOTAPE) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Here's a special treat -- Lou Dobbs getting ready for his program. He's here in Washington tonight and in THE SITUATION ROOM right now to tell us what he has got in store.
Welcome to Washington, Lou.
LOU DOBBS, HOST, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT": Thank you, Wolf. It's great to be with you here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
We have come to Washington today, if you will, to be at the scene of the crime, the alleged crime.
As Wolf and the entire CNN team have been reporting throughout the day, after a 667-day investigation, special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald has announced an indictment against vice presidential adviser Scooter Libby. We will be talking live with nationally renowned attorney David Boies; a former adviser to four presidents, David Gergen; former Clinton adviser Paul Begala, as well as some of this country's top political and legal analysts.
Also, tonight, we will be reporting on disturbing new figures on the high number of Americans now living in poverty and the few Americans who are now receiving a good education -- a threat against our middle class. We will have that special report, America by the numbers.
And the Minutemen, the volunteer group aiming to secure our broken borders to do the work the federal government won't -- this weekend, however, a big battle is building against the Minutemen volunteers and some of the open-border advocates in this country. We will have that special report as well and a great deal more. We hope you will join us -- Wolf.
BLITZER: You picked a very exciting day to come to Washington, D.C., Lou.
DOBBS: Well, we certainly did. And we're here to -- to report on -- on what looks to be a very difficult situation for the president, and certainly for the vice president, and the Republican Party.
BLITZER: We will watch it very closely. We will watch it with you.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Thanks very much. Don't leave yet.
Elaine Quijano is over at the White House. She's getting some new information there.
Elaine, what are you picking up?
QUIJANO: Well, Wolf, just a bit from Scott McClellan, the White House press secretary, talking to reporters off-camera just a short time ago, giving a little bit more detail on how things unfolded here at the White House -- specifically, Scott McClellan confirming, essentially, what we have been reporting about how this unfolded, with the letter of resignation being submitted by Scooter Libby to Andy Card, and then Andy Card informing the president.
We also understand that the president, after he returned from Norfolk, Virginia, where he gave remarks on the war on terror, he had some meetings, and then, apparently, caught about 15 to 20 minutes or so of the news conference held by the special counsel, Patrick Fitzgerald.
We also understand that the president's chief of staff, Andy Card, sent out a memo to White House staff. And, in that memo, he reiterated that this was an ongoing investigation, an ongoing legal matter, and that all White House staffers should not have any contact with Scooter Libby about any aspect of the investigation -- would not go into details about what, specifically, time frame all of this happened, but just saying that that initial resignation letter from Scooter Libby was submitted earlier today.
Now, when also asked about Scooter Libby's office, spokesman Scott McClellan would not get in to specifics, simply saying that any time a White House employee no longer works here, that they, effectively, turn in their hard pass, and their security clearance is terminated -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Elaine Quijano at the White House -- thanks, Elaine, very much.
Up next, Lewis Scooter Libby will surely need to develop a legal strategy to fight his indictment. What are his options? I will ask two legal experts. They're standing by.
And, in other news, certainly, no one wants to hear about another hurricane, but one storm is now a tropical storm, but it could become a hurricane this weekend. We will tell you all about that.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's get some more now on the relationship between Scooter Libby and the vice president himself.
For that, we turn to our Brian Todd. He's been watching this part of the story -- Brian.
TODD: Wolf, this is a bond that has endured through four administrations, at least three wars and countless moments of tension. And those who know them that, if anyone is equipped to handle the pressure of this particular moment, it's the vice president and his now former chief of staff.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) TODD (voice-over): They work in a city where personal loyalties are constantly tested, and are enmeshed in a story that has already broken some close bonds.
Can the personal relationship between Dick Cheney and his now former chief of staff, Lewis Scooter Libby, survive the CIA leak scandal?
JIM VANDEHEI, "THE WASHINGTON POST": I see no evidence that this relationship won't survive this investigation.
TODD: The bond between Cheney and Libby is said to be extraordinarily close and is intertwined with a close confidant of both men, former Deputy Defense Secretary and current World Bank President Paul Wolfowitz.
Libby served as Wolfowitz's aide at the State Department under Ronald Reagan, and then at the Pentagon during the administration of George Bush Sr. During that period, Wolfowitz was a key official under then-Defense Secretary Cheney.
A friend who has known Cheney for more than two decades, but who did not want to be identified, tells CNN, it was at that time that Cheney came to respect Libby's analytical style and -- quote -- "passion for anonymity."
During the Clinton years, Libby worked as an attorney, representing high-profile clients like Clinton friend Marc Rich, recipient of a controversial Clinton pardon.
Shortly after Libby joined Cheney's staff in 2001, Wolf Blitzer asked the vice president if, given that affiliation, Cheney had confidence in Libby.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, MARCH 2001)
CHENEY: Mr. Libby, Lewis Libby -- Scooter, we call him -- has been an old friend of mine. He worked for me in the Pentagon, did a superb job for me when I was secretary of defense. And I was delighted to get him to give up his very lucrative law practice and come back into public service when I became vice president. He's running my staff operation for him, superb individual and very, very competent, capable lawyer, and also a good chief of staff.
TODD: The feeling has seemingly been mutual.
LEWIS SCOOTER LIBBY, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF FOR VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: I'm a great fan of the vice president. I think he's one of the smartest, most honorable people I've ever met. So, I'd like to consider myself fully on his team.
TODD: Two former government officials who have worked with Cheney and Libby say the two men think very much alike. Both have a dry sense of humor -- according to one Cheney friend, the vice president's sarcasm balancing Libby's disarming wit. Both place a high premium on keeping confidences. And they have the same world view, sharpened during those years with Wolfowitz and three different wars.
VANDEHEI: They've both been among the strongest supporters inside this White House of going to war in Iraq, of toppling Saddam Hussein. They always have seen him as central in this war on terrorism.
TODD: And, according to one Republican source, both men have been skeptical of U.S. intelligence on the Islamic world since well before September 11.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: Now, one friend of Cheney's is certain that this bond will survive this scandal and this indictment, saying that neither Cheney, nor Scooter Libby would ever be disloyal to a true friend -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, thanks very much, Brian Todd over at the courthouse today.
Let's get some legal analysis, what this all means.
Joining us, our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin. He's in New York,. And Victoria Toensing, she's a former federal prosecutor. She's joining us on the phone.
Vickie, give us your reaction to what has happened.
VICTORIA TOENSING, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Well, I read the indictment -- indictment out here in California, where I'm -- I'm at a spa and not supposed to be doing such things.
But I guess my initial reaction, Wolf, was, if this is a cover- up, it's about something that was not illegal. And so, it's -- it's an amazing series of facts put in the indictment that don't make sense to me, because every single thing that Scooter Libby could have admitted to would not have been a violation of the law.
BLITZER: But what if -- if he was lying to the grand jury and insisting he heard about -- Victoria, about Valerie Plame from journalists, as opposed from government officials, that sounds, at least according to the prosecutor, like a flat-out lie.
TOENSING: Well, but here's -- here's the vulnerability in the prosecutor's case.
And that is, is to admit that you also heard it from the CIA. There's nothing in the indictment that says that he was told it was classified and that he wasn't supposed to reveal it, which would have been a significant fact I would have put in, if I had been writing this charge and I had had that evidence. So, if that never occurred, then -- you know, then the jury's going to be looking at it.
If you're the defense attorney, you phrase it as, this is one person's memory and this is another person's memory.
BLITZER: It's not just one person, though. There are at least three journalists who claim they learned about this CIA operative from -- from Scooter Libby. And there are at least three or four government officials who apparently have gone before the grand jury and said they told him a -- a lot earlier about her identity.
TOENSING: Well, Wolf, that could well be so, but if he remembers -- it was all over a period of 48 hours, and -- and if -- if you want me to -- to, you know, look at it from a defense viewpoint, you would say, people sometimes can't remember when things happen all in a -- in a flurry of...
BLITZER: All right.
Well, let me...
TOENSING: ... who said what when.
BLITZER: Let me interrupt, Vickie, for a second.
Jeff Toobin is our senior legal analyst.
And the attorney who represents Libby, Joseph Tate, basically is making that -- that argument: Well, the recollections can differ when you look back over a long period of time, Jeff.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: That's right.
And I think Victoria is really sort of outlining a lot of what the defense will be. Why did he lie when he's not covering up something that's illegal? He could have admitted it. It was just an honest mistake. That's one defense.
Another defense is, he didn't remember the -- the -- the -- the facts well enough. That's a -- that's a common defense in a perjury, false statement case.
You know, they're -- they're -- they're not always successful, but -- but they are -- they are perfectly legitimate defenses. Another thing I think is -- is -- is worth thinking about is, it will -- it will be in the defense's interests to try to make this case as complicated as possible, to say that this is really about a dispute about the war in Iraq, about the competence of the CIA, and you need to have that full, muddy context.
What the prosecution is going to say at the trial is no, no, no, we don't want to hear about the war in Iraq. We don't want to hear about the CIA. This is simply a case about lying -- and keep it as narrow as possible.
And Judge Reggie Walton, who is going to be the judge here, is going to have a real tug-of-war between the two sides about how much extraneous context evidence to allow...
BLITZER: All right.
TOOBIN: ... from both sides.
BLITZER: What about that, Vickie?
TOENSING: Well, but, Jeff, I don't even think you have to make it about the war in order to say that the CIA's conduct is at issue.
You know, what are they doing sending somebody over to Niger who is not qualified for the job, who doesn't have background in that area, at the request of his wife, and then allowing him -- and this is the key thing -- him to write about it in "The New York Times" as an op-ed? I can't do that when I represent somebody with CIA -- in a CIA situation.
What did they think was going to happen after this person was criticizing the administration in "The New York Times"? People were just going to say, well, that's just nice? Weren't they going to say, who is he?
BLITZER: All right, button it up, Jeff.
TOOBIN: But -- but the argument Victoria is making will be met by the argument: We don't care why Joseph Wilson went to Niger.
The fact is, he did. And Vic -- and Scooter Libby testified about it in the grand jury. We don't care about the context.
TOENSING: But, Jeff...
TOOBIN: That's what the prosecutors will argue.
TOENSING: .. that goes to the valid classification.
BLITZER: All right.
TOENSING: That goes to the valid..
BLITZER: Well...
TOENSING: The validity of the classification of her name.
BLITZER: Victoria Toensing, Jeff Toobin, we're going to continue this down the road, but not today, because we are out of time.
But thanks to both of you for sharing some thoughts with us.
Let's check the situation online one more time.
Abbi Tatton is standing by for that -- Abbi.
ABBI TATTON, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Wolf, in addition to reading the indictment for yourself at the Department of Justice Web site, there's a wealth of other documentation out there that's being compiled.
A lot of it -- there's the Department of Justice Web site. FindLaw.com, a legal Web site, is trying to get a lot of this in one place, information going back a couple of years there. In addition, "The New York Times" has put a series of correspondents online at its Web site, including this letter sent to its reporter Judith Miller last month while she was in jail, signed, "With admiration, Scooter Libby" -- Wolf, back to you.
BLITZER: All right, thanks very much. We are going to take a quick break.
Up next, Tropical Storm Beta gaining strength, bearing down on Central America.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Mary Snow is in New York with a quick look at some other stories making news around the world -- Mary.
SNOW: Wolf, in Iran, thousands marched in protest against Israel. They supported Iran's president, who said that Israel must be -- quote -- "wiped out from the map of the world."
The United Nations Security Council condemned the comments. Israel says the remarks should disqualify Iran from membership in the U.N.
On the island of San Andreas, off the coast of Colombia, residents and tourists are preparing for Tropical Storm Beta. By Sunday, Beta is expected to be a hurricane. It could drench parts of Central America with up to 15 inches of rain.
And, in Chicago, a parade 88 years in the making -- thousands turned out to cheer the Chicago White Sox. Two days ago, the Sox won their first World Series since 1917. The team defeated the Houston Astros in four straight games -- Wolf, a lot of happy people in Chicago.
BLITZER: No doubt about that. Thanks very much, Mary.
We are in THE SITUATION ROOM every weekday afternoon, 3:00 to 6:00 p.m. Eastern.
Join me again Sunday, 11:00 a.m. Eastern, for "LATE EDITION," the last word in Sunday talk. Among my guests this Sunday, Republican Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee Arlen Specter.
Until then, thanks very much for joining us. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now. Lou is in Washington as well.
Hi, Lou.
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