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The Situation Room
Lewis Scooter Libby Hears Charges; Bill Proposed to Build Barrier Along Mexican Border; Former Saddam Hussein Soldiers Asked to Rejoin Iraqi Army
Aired November 03, 2005 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer. And you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time. Standing by, CNN reporters across the United States and around the world to bring you the day's top stories.
Happening now, it's almost 3:00 p.m. here in Washington, where Vice President Cheney's former chief aide hears the charges against him in the CIA leak case. How damaging could a public trial be for the Bush administration?
On Capitol Hill, a proposed bill to build a barrier along the border with Mexico, a 2,000-mile fence to keep out illegal immigrants, will it work? Is it right? I will ask one of its sponsors.
And it's 11:00 p.m. in Baghdad, where Saddam Hussein's soldiers are being asked to rejoin the army. Will they be loyal to Iraq's new leaders or to the insurgents?
I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Vice President Cheney's former chief of staff was in court today here in Washington, D.C., pleading not guilty to five felony counts in the CIA leak case. As the president's troubles mount in Washington, though, can he get away from it all in Latin America? Our Elaine Quijano is standing by in Argentina.
But let's begin our coverage with CNN national correspondent Bob Franken. He's outside the U.S. district court here in Washington. Bob?
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this is a man who, less than a week ago, was at the top levels of government, Lewis Scooter Libby, then the vice president's chief of staff.
Today, he had to endure the turmoil that comes from the notoriety of his indictments, indictments for, as you pointed out, charges of perjury, obstruction of justice, and of making false statements. He appeared to plead not guilty. He left the courtroom and the courthouse, after he had gone to the marshal's office. And sources confirmed that, as usual, a mug shot was taken, and he was fingerprinted.
Outside, his lawyer vowed that there would be a battle.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TED WELLS, ATTORNEY FOR LEWIS SCOOTER LIBBY: Mr. Libby has pled not guilty to each and every count in the indictment. In pleading not guilty, he has declared to the world that he is innocent. He has declared that he intends to fight the charges in the indictment. And he has declared that he wants to clear his good name and he wants a jury trial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FRANKEN: This is going to take quite a while before that jury trial would begin, if there is one -- several very complicated issues, the handling of classified material for the trial, the possible involvement of testimony by reporters, litigation that might come out about that -- and, of course, also the possibility that the vice president may be called as a witness.
Wolf.
BLITZER: Bob, a lot of speculation in the legal community here that this new high-powered legal defense team that Libby has should have been in place in the months leading up to the indictments, as opposed to after the fact, if you will. What are you hearing at the courthouse?
FRANKEN: Well, there was some question raised about the fact that his lawyer, Joe Tate, who is a member of his same law firm, was, nevertheless, somebody who specialized in other matters, antitrust law, as opposed to white-collar crime, which is the specialty of Ted Wells.
BLITZER: Bob Franken, over at the courthouse for us. Bob, thank you very much.
As his administration goes from crisis to crisis, President Bush is up against his lowest-ever approval ratings. But he may be leaving it all behind, at least for a few days. The president's on his way to the Summit of the Americas in Argentina right now.
CNN's Elaine Quijano is already there. She's joining us live. What's the latest there, Elaine?
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello to you, Wolf. Well, this town of Mar Del Plata is about a 10-and-a-half-hour plane ride from Washington, D.C. And, by traveling here, far away from those lingering questions about the CIA leak investigation President Bush hopes to focus this spotlight on to economic issues in this hemisphere, also focus the spotlight on the importance of supporting democratic institutions in this hemisphere.
Now, as you mentioned, the president, over the next two days, will be joining with 33 other leaders, taking part in the Summit of the Americas. But those questions about the CIA leak investigation persist. Even before the president left, his national security adviser, Stephen Hadley, was asked what impact the indictment of Scooter Libby would have on the U.S.'s credibility abroad. And Stephen Hadley's answer, that it is the president who makes foreign policy and that it's the president who is going to be talking about it with countries in the region.
But, Wolf, no doubt, the president could certainly be asked about the CIA leak case in the coming days. He has a news conference tomorrow and another one later on in his trip, when he visits Panama.
BLITZER: And...
QUIJANO: Wolf.
BLITZER: ... it's always embarrassing -- I used to cover the White House -- when a president, any president -- whether it's Bill Clinton or George W. Bush -- is overseas and -- and is asked embarrassing questions about domestic political issues back home.
And, speaking about embarrassing potential -- potentially domestic political issues, the future of Karl Rove, the president's deputy chief of staff, top political adviser, is he on -- do you know if he's on this trip?
QUIJANO: He's not on this trip. But aides say that is not an unusual thing. Certainly, there are a host of issues that he is dealing with back in the United States, namely, front and center, that Supreme Court nomination, pushing that forward.
At the same time, though, there has been a lot of talk about Karl Rove's future, as you mentioned, the president's top political strategist. But sources, both in and out of the White House, Wolf, are saying that, right now, there are no discussions inside the White House about Karl Rove leaving, that, unless there's an indictment, really, there's no expectation that he would step down.
BLITZER: Elaine Quijano...
QUIJANO: Wolf.
BLITZER: ... reporting for us from Argentina, traveling with the president on this trip for the Summit of Americas, thank you very much.
Let's head up to New York. Jack Cafferty is standing by. Jack, it is pretty embarrassing for a president to be attending a summit meeting in Argentina and Brazil, and reporters, pesky White House reporters, asking questions, embarrassing questions, in front of all of these foreign leaders. But that's what we have to do.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Well, if Valerie Plame's name hadn't been made available when it wasn't supposed to be, and if the people who made it available weren't, allegedly, connected to the administration, he probably wouldn't be asked anything about it, would he?
BLITZER: That's absolutely correct.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
You may have thought we have heard the last about former FEMA Director Michael Brown. No such luck. He's back -- new e-mails released by a House committee investigating the response to Katrina. And in them, Brown appears to have been in even farther over his head than we already thought. And -- and that was considerable.
For instance, the morning of Katrina, a FEMA official complimented Brown on his shirt that he wore for a TV interview. And Brown emailed him back: "I got it at Nordstrom's. Are you proud of me? Can I quit now? Can I come home?"
An hour later, Brown added this: "If you look at my lovely FEMA attire, you will really vomit. I am a fashion god."
The next day, Brown writes to an assistant, "Do you know of anybody who dog-sits?"
And, a few days later, he writes this to an acquaintance: "I'm trapped now. Please rescue me."
Of course, Brown resigned two weeks after Katrina hit. But, since then, he has been on the government payroll as a consultant. That's right, Virginia. You're still paying this clown. His lawyer told "USA Today" that the committee should focus on FEMA budget and other issues, instead of the emails. And it says here, we should keep in mind, although they are disturbing, the emails come from over 100 pages of material.
Presumably, there might even be more good stuff in there.
Anyway, the question is this. Should the taxpayers still be paying former FEMA Director Mike Brown?
And, if we get any letters that say yes, I will rightfully conclude we have heard from Mike Brown himself here on the "Cafferty File" -- CaffertyFile@CNN.com or CNN.com/caffertyfile. And we will read some of the responses to this rather outrageous predicament in a half-hour or so.
BLITZER: All right, Jack, thank you very much. Jack Cafferty in New York.
Coming up here in THE SITUATION ROOM, inviting back Saddam Hussein's army -- the Iraqi government opens doors to the dictator's former military men. Are the old enemies now allies? We will take a closer look.
Plus, immigration backlash -- one U.S. congressman proposing building a wall along the U.S.-Mexican border. How serious is he? Would it really create more problems than solutions, as critics are suggesting? I will ask him some of the serious, tough questions.
And Radio City lockout. It's opening night of the Rockettes' famous Christmas show, but the musicians won't be in the house. We will find out if the show really will go on.
You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
The Iraqi government is inviting former officers of Saddam Hussein's army to boot up once again and to join the new Iraqi army.
Let's head over to the Pentagon. Our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, is standing by. People are going to be saying, what? Jamie, what is going on?
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, the U.S. military has been quietly trying to get more former Iraqi army officers into the military over the last year or so.
But this announcement by the Iraqi government really makes it formal. Basically, they're saying anyone who served up to the rank of major in the prior Iraqi army should apply for reinstatement to the new Iraqi army. The -- the move is aimed at two things, one, trying to take some of the wind out of the sails of the insurgency, rob them of some support, and also boost the number of Sunnis who are in the Iraqi military to try to make the force more secular.
Here, at the Pentagon, James Conway, the director of the -- joint staff director -- said, he thought it was a good move.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIEUTENANT GENERAL JAMES CONWAY, DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: It -- it has potentially some positives associated with it.
I understand that there is a -- is a need, always, for experienced mid-level officers in -- in the Iraqi army. A significant percentage of those -- I couldn't tell you how many -- would likely be Sunni. And that would make the army more secular, perhaps, than it is right now. It would give that segment of the population greater engagement in the governmental progress -- in the process. And we think that's a -- that's a positive thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Yes. He did add the caveat that he would have to wait and see how many people actually took up the offer. They think it could be as many as 350,000 people qualify under this plan.
They also will wait and see how well it turns out. The vetting process is the key. And, of course, as you know, Wolf, a lot of debate about, still, whether it's the right decision to disband the Iraqi army and pursue a policy of de-Baathification. A lot of people now going back and saying, maybe that was a mistake. The Pentagon still says, you can argue that either way. To some extent, the army had disbanded itself. And, had they kept the army together, they might have had the same problem with insurgents inside their ranks.
BLITZER: It sort of sounds, looking at it from the outside, as tacit acknowledgement that maybe the disbandment of the Iraqi army was a mistake, a policy that was advocated by the then-Ambassador Paul Bremer and -- and Rumsfeld and other top Pentagon leaders. It sounds like tacit acknowledgement, with hindsight, you know what, that was probably a mistake.
MCINTYRE: Well, what they're really saying is, you could argue that was what was best back -- back then. But what they are saying is, looking at the situation they're dealing with now, they think this is right decision at this time. And I guess they will leave it to historians and military strategists to go back and debate endlessly whether they made the right decision back in 2003 and 2004.
BLITZER: And what are they doing -- when you say they're vetting these potential new troops -- to make sure that insurgents aren't infiltrating into the new Iraqi army?
MCINTYRE: Well, it's not a perfect process, because some insurgents do infiltrate the army. That's well known.
But basically, what they do is, they check their record. They don't let people join in a group if they were in a prior militia. They ask other people about them. The best source of vetting Iraqi troops are other Iraqis, who can say what that person did during the prior administration. And then, it's based on their performance once they're in -- in the army. It's not a perfect process.
BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre, at the Pentagon, thanks very much.
Let's head over to the CNN Center in Atlanta. Our Zain Verjee is standing by with a closer look at other stories making news. Hi, Zain.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Wolf.
A huge legal victory for the maker of Vioxx. Today, a jury in New Jersey said Merck is not guilty of misleading doctors and the public about the increased risk of heart attack and stroke. The jury also found Merck was not guilty of fraud and did not conceal information about the painkiller. Merck lost its first case over the drug.
In South Carolina, for three days they were fugitives. Today, they're back in a jail cell. Police nabbed two prison escapees, without incident, from a motel. The men were the subject of a statewide search, after breaking out of a Columbia prison on Tuesday morning, apparently by riding in a trash truck.
In Maryland, dozens of schoolchildren were stung by bees at the Deep Creek Elementary School. Officials say one child disturbed a tree stump with a nest of yellow jackets inside. Two children suffered mild allergic reactions. And some 40 children were taken to a hospital. That was just as a precaution.
At New York City's Radio City Music Hall, the show went on, but the music just wasn't the same. Musicians went on strike over salaries and overtime. Their union has instructed them to perform. And the musicians did agree to work for today's opening show. But the management says it's going ahead with recorded music. Last night's preseason performance was canceled. Wolf.
BLITZER: What a pity all around, especially for the young kids, who love to go there.
Thanks very much, Zain. We will be getting back to you.
Still to come here in THE SITUATION ROOM, defending against charges of perjury and obstruction of justice. Dick Cheney's former chief aide pleads not guilty. We will take a closer look at his strategy to try to beat the rap.
And, a little bit later, hurricane email. We will see some more details of what the former FEMA Director Mike Brown was really saying while disaster struck. Jack Cafferty going through your email. We have more on this story.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: He's charged with obstruction of justice, perjury, and making false statements in the CIA leak case. Former Cheney Chief of Staff Lewis Scooter Libby pleaded not guilty today, but he faces a long legal battle. And the Bush administration faces a lot of potential embarrassment.
Our senior legal analyst, Jeff Toobin, is joining us now, live from New York. First of all, we're not going to really know much about this case, what, until February 3? Is that when the next status report is going to be made available?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: At -- at the earliest.
I was really surprised, frankly, that the judge wasn't trying to move this case along faster. Yes, there are complex issues here. And, yes, this is going to take a long time. But not even setting a status conference for three months suggests that this case will go well into 2006 and maybe even to 2007.
BLITZER: Is that because Libby's attorneys will now need national security clearances to deal with some of the classified information involved in this case?
TOOBIN: Well, that's just the start. And that is very complicated, because, think about it. The lawyers themselves have to get security clearances and their secretaries and the paralegals, anybody who might touch the documents. Then they have to get access to a space where classified information can be stored. They can't just hold it in their offices. Then they have to get the information and decide what else they want. And only then, do they start dealing with the judge about what can be introduced in open court. It's a long, multi-month process.
BLITZER: What do you make of this new legal team that he has assembled, Scooter Libby? TOOBIN: Ted Wells is one of the best lawyers I have ever seen in my life. When I was a federal prosecutor in Brooklyn, he defended a congressman in our courthouse. And he got the case dismissed before it even went to the jury. He defended Mike Espy, the former secretary of Agriculture in the Clinton administration, successfully. This guy is absolutely top-shelf, one of best lawyers in the country. Scooter Libby has clearly sent the message he's ready to go to trial.
BLITZER: What about a plea bargain? There's a lot of speculation -- speculation -- out there that there will be some plea bargain before a trial to avoid the potential embarrassment to the vice president and others in the Bush White House.
TOOBIN: Boy, I don't see it, Wolf.
The time for a plea bargain, almost always, in a case like this is before indictment. And the only reason Pat Fitzgerald, the prosecutor, would give a plea bargain, I think, is if Libby agreed to cooperate. But, A, he gives no indication of wanting to cooperate. And, B, he doesn't seem to have any information that might lead to Dick Cheney. So, unless he just wants to plea to the indictment, which is no bargain, I don't see any deal happening here.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: I think that train has left.
BLITZER: His former lawyer, Joe Tate, maybe still one of his lawyers, from Philadelphia, who was his lawyer leading up to the indictment, issued that statement, saying, you know what? He may have had a bad recollection, a bad memory. He was so busy, so many meetings. And -- and he may have made a simple mistake in his recollection.
Is that going to -- is going to fly with a jury here in the District of Columbia?
TOOBIN: Well, that is a -- a real defense, to perjury, because perjury is -- is -- is what's called an intent crime. It's only a crime if you intend to lie. A mistake is a -- is a defense. But, you know, that's where all the other witnesses come in. That's where we -- Dick Cheney will be a witness, presumably, because he will testify about his conversations with Scooter Libby, based on the -- on the indictment about these subjects. And the jury will have to believe that he either did or didn't remember these conversations with Cheney. It's a very -- memory is a legitimate defense, but only if the facts support it.
BLITZER: Jeff Toobin, thanks very much. Jeff Toobin is our senior legal analyst.
Let's get some more today -- more on today's developments over at the D.C. district court. For that, we will turn to our Internet reporter, Jacki Schechner. Jacki?
JACKI SCHECHNER, CNN INTERNET CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, as if we didn't have enough names to keep track of in the CIA leak investigation, we now have two more to add to the roster, Scooter Libby's new defense attorneys.
We did some digging online today. And it's amazing how far a couple of Google searches will go. First, we take a look at Ted Wells. You heard Jeffrey Toobin speak about him. And he is a partner at Paul Weiss.
On their Web site, they have a tremendous amount of information about him. For example, "The National Law Journal" in the year 2000 named him one of the most influential lawyers in America.
Also, on that Web site is detailed information about some of those big-name cases that he's been a part of. For example, you heard Jeff Toobin talk about Mike Espy, the former Agriculture secretary under Clinton. He also defended financier Michael Milken. And he defended former New Jersey Senator Bob Torricelli.
The other lawyer you're going to be hearing about is this man, William Jeffress, who is a partner at the law firm of Baker Botts. Now, what we found with him online is from the legaltimes.com. He's one of the top lawyers in D.C. in 2003.
We also found this from the U.S. District Court -- you can see this here, the District Court of New York -- that he defended one of several Saudi princes who were part of a lawsuit brought by families of victims of September 11.
Now, we spoke to Baker Botts today. And, according to them, that lawsuit was settled favorably for Jeffress at the beginning of this year.
Wolf.
BLITZER: Interesting. Very interesting, Jacki. Thank you very much.
We have been hearing a lot about Scooter Libby in recent weeks and months. But you might not know that he's also a novelist.
Our national correspondent, Bruce Morton, is here in Washington. He has got more on that. Bruce?
BRUCE MORTON, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, here's what it looks like. This is the paperback, published in 2002. The hardcover edition was earlier. It's kind of a mystery, kind of a fantasy. It all happens at an inn in rural Japan in 1903 in the middle of a huge blizzard. And all sorts of people show up, all of them mysterious. The apprentice works at the inn. He meets the dwarf, the bearded man, the beautiful girl, Yukiko, and so on.
There's love and murder and the kind of stuff you expect in an exotic tale. Libby first set it in Japan, then changed his mind, then changed his mind again.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")
LEWIS SCOOTER LIBBY, FORMER CHENEY CHIEF OF STAFF: The story sort of wouldn't let me go. And I sort of said, why am I writing about this about Japan? And I went back and rewrote the book entirely in New England -- set in New England. I went out to Colorado, drank tequila and wrote sort of the dream life.
(LAUGHTER)
LIBBY: But what eventually happened was, that didn't seem right. I took that 300 pages and threw it away, never showed it.
MORTON (voice-over): So, it is in Japan. And critics liked it. The "Washington Post" called it a "muted, often slow, yet strikingly original book, written with a veteran novelist's control. "The "Weekly Standard" called it "an extraordinary literate first novel." And the "New York Times" said, "Lewis Libby elevates the youth's narrative to the level of myth, setting his confused adolescent reaction to love at first sight against the mysterious goings-on of the other travelers."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MORTON: If I were a really good guy, I would tell you, of course, whether the young Setsuo and the beautiful Yukiko find true love or misery, and whether the bearded man is a good guy or a villain, and what Setsuo stole and all that. But I won't. Mr. Libby may need the royalties one day. Go buy the book. It's out of print, but you can order it.
Wolf.
BLITZER: Well, I -- I don't have to order it, because that copy you held up, you know whose copy that was?
MORTON: No.
BLITZER: That's my book.
(LAUGHTER)
MORTON: Well done.
(LAUGHTER)
BLITZER: All right. Thanks very much, Bruce Morton.
Just ahead, a controversial plan to stem illegal immigration, a giant wall spanning the entire U.S.-Mexican border. We will talk to the congressman proposing it, Duncan Hunter. He's standing by.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: In our CNN "Security Council", fallout from the CIA leak case. The former Cheney aide, Lewis Scooter Libby, faces some very serious legal trouble right now and a possible prison term. The Bush administration faces some very serious political trouble. What sort of trouble is the outing of a CIA officer causing the U.S. intelligence community, if any?
Joining us now to discuss that situation here in THE SITUATION ROOM, the former CIA director, Stansfield Turner, and CNN security analyst Richard Falkenrath, former deputy White House Homeland Security adviser. Thanks, gentlemen, for joining us.
Admiral Turner, I'll start with you. You worked at the CIA, you ran the CIA. Realistically, what kind of problems are they facing as a result of the outing of Valerie Plame Wilson?
ADM. STANSFIELD TURNER (RET.), FMR. CIA DIRECTOR: They've lost Valerie Plame as a possible operative. They may lose people she worked with who now associate those people with the CIA. And they have a more difficult time in recruiting new people to work for the CIA, for fear that they, too, will be exposed.
BLITZER: Is this a serious problem, Richard Falkenrath, for the CIA, or not so serious, based on what you're hearing?
RICHARD FALKENRATH, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Wolf, we really don't know. I think Admiral Turner got it right in the three basic risks that are run whenever someone is exposed like this. She may have had agents in the field who are now compromised. And she certainly is not useful to them in future. And certainly, our future efforts to recruit agents are called into question by this in disclosure.
But we haven't -- we don't actually have a whole lot of facts. We don't know how active she was in the field and we don't know if they ever intended to put her back out there. So, yes, it's a problem. Yes, there's damage. How bad? We don't know.
BLITZER: And we don't have results of the formal damage assessment, a post-mortem, if one was done by the CIA, which I assume one was done. We do know this, that Victoria Toensing, a former deputy assistant attorney general who was involved in writing that 1982 legislation, that law that makes it illegal to release the name of a CIA operative, says this in the "Wall Street Journal": "Two decades later, the CIA either purposely or with gross negligence, made a series of decisions that led to Ms. Plame becoming a household name. The CIA conduct in this matter is either a brilliant covert action against the White House or inept intelligence tradecraft." In other words, she's blaming the CIA for all of this, not those who leaked her name.
TURNER: I don't understand where she casts that blame or how she casts that blame. It seems to me the blame lies with those people who exposed her.
BLITZER: Well, she's saying that in getting her husband to make this trip to Niger, Ambassador -- former Ambassador Joe Wilson, the CIA was looking for a critic, in effect, of the White House, someone who could embarrass the White House, given potentially some of the tensions that existed between the CIA bureaucracy on the one hand and the vice president's staff, shall we say, on the other.
TURNER: Well, I have a lot of respect for Victoria Toensing, but this sounds like a bit of a stretch to me.
BLITZER: What about to you, Richard Falkenrath?
FALKENRATH: Sounds like a stretch to me, too. The CIA can play hardball and has played hardball with the White House. But her theory there is a little contrived.
BLITZER: Here is a quote, I want to read it to you, from Mark Lowenthal, the former CIA counter-proliferation division officer, quoted in the "Washington Post" a few days ago: "You can only speculate that if she had foreign contacts, those contacts might be nervous and their relationships with her put at risk. It also makes it harder for other CIA officers to recruit sources." I think that goes without saying. What do you think, Richard?
FALKENRATH: I agree. I think both are true. If she had sources in the field recruited when she was an operative there, they're in jeopardy if they're still in places of position.
BLITZER: One of the arguments that has been made, Admiral Turner, is that, you know what, she may have been a covert clandestine officer at one point, but in recent years, she had a desk job as an analyst at the counter-proliferation division at the CIA. She would drive in the main gates of the CIA in Langley, Virginia, every day, drive out. It wasn't as if she was hiding, necessarily, what she was doing.
TURNER: Well, you can't not drive into the CIA if you work there. But they do take precautions to make sure that other people aren't standing around watching who comes in and such forth. It's one of those risks that you have you to take. But I think they do it in a manner that's acceptable.
BLITZER: Is that standard, Richard Falkenrath, for clandestine officers working undercover, the so-called NOCs who go out around the world under what's called non-official cover -- is that standard when they come to Washington? They go for briefings, debriefings, over at CIA headquarters?
FALKENRATH: Yes, it is standard. And there are a lot of operatives at the CIA who will periodically cycle through desk jobs at Langley or even analytic jobs like she had at the proliferation analytic center there. So that does go on. Some of them, I assume, never come in from their undercover operations, but I think that's the exception.
BLITZER: What's your bottom line assessment on this whole CIA leak investigation, this story right now? What do you come away with, Admiral Turner, and conclude?
TURNER: I conclude there was moderate damage done to the CIA. I conclude it was done for purposes of revenge against her husband, and I think that is entirely reprehensible. I conclude that it was done deliberately by the Bush administration. BLITZER: We'll leave it there. Thanks very much, Admiral Turner, for joining us. Richard Falkenrath, as usual -- he's at the Brookings Institution right now.
Up next, can a giant multibillion wall stem the tide of the legal immigration into the United States? One congressman thinks so. That would be Duncan Hunter. He's standing by to join us in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Plus, the "Cafferty File." Jack's question this hour, should taxpayers still be paying the former FEMA director, Mike Brown? He's going through your email.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Imagine a fence similar to the Great Wall of China, but running along the entire United States/Mexican border, stretching some 2,000 miles and perhaps costing $8 billion. My next guest says he'll introduce legislation to build one of those fences.
Republican Congressman Duncan Hunter of California says illegal immigrants are pouring across the border and a huge wall could stop them. He's joining us here in THE SITUATION ROOM. Congressman Hunter, thanks very much for joining us. Also joining us in the questioning, our Tom Foreman. He's here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Congressman Hunter, critics say it's really a tough project, really not worth it. There's going to be a lot less bang there for the buck. What do you say?
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R-CA), CHAIRMAN, ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Well, we've actually built 14 miles of fence, and it's actually a double fence, Wolf, that is where you have a steel fence on the border and then you have a Border Patrol road about 50 yards wide. And then you have a large fence with an overhang.
When we built that in San Diego -- and we're still working on it, we're still building that. The full Congress voted to close Smuggler's Gulch, which is just south of the naval base there.
When we started to build that, we had 300 drug trucks a month running that border, simply coming across with cocaine, marijuana, going up, getting lost in the traffic. You had 10 murders a year with gangs that robbed, raped and murdered, some with automatic weapons that roamed that no man's land between Tijuana and San Diego. You had massive smuggling. That was the number one smuggling corridor for narcotics for illegal aliens and potentially for terrorists. Now today we have hundreds of thousands of people coming across the land border between the U.S and Mexico. It's not an immigration problem anymore, it's a security problem. You have people from North Korea, Libya, et cetera.
And when we built that fence, the double fence, the drive-through drug traffic went from 300 a month to zero. The gangs were put away. BLITZER: Congressman, let me interrupt you for a second.
HUNTER: We had results. Let me put it that way.
BLITZER: Do you have any evidence that anyone from North Korea or from Libya has ever crossed the U.S. border from Mexico into the United States?
HUNTER: Absolutely. Absolutely we've got them. And you can look at the records of what is known as OTM. That means other than from Mexico. And in this last several months, I can show you exactly how many have crossed.
BLITZER: How many have?
HUNTER: Four crossed. Four North Koreans crossed in last 12 months who were apprehended. We had also people cross from Yemen. We had them cross from a number of countries that sponsor terrorism, including Iran. We had thousands cross from other nations which are very dubious in nature. So you had 155,000 people cross the land border between the U.S. and Mexico, and the answer is, yes.
BLITZER: All right.
HUNTER: We have recorded instances this year of people from North Korea coming across, and we have them in custody.
BLITZER: Let me read to you what John Cornyn, Senator John Cornyn, Republican of Texas, Mr. Chairman -- he's the chairman of the Immigration and Border Security Subcommittee in the U.S. Senate -- has said October 10: "I think a border fence is futile because I don't think you can build a wall high enough or wide enough to keep people out of the country who have no hope or opportunity where they live." That's an argument you hear not only from Cornyn, but from a lot of other people as well.
HUNTER: Well, here's a -- first, the bill that we offered today also has employer sanctions and verification requirements and other things intended to dampen that magnet of jobs on the U.S. side.
But I just say to Senator Cornyn, a fine gentleman I'm sure, that we went from 300 drug trucks to zero. We went from the biggest smuggling corridor in the U.S. that smuggled most of the illegal aliens who came into the U.S. down to almost none. And nobody's been able to cross those double fences with the Border Patrol road in between when the Border Patrol attends that section of the fence.
So I give the same answer to Senator Cornyn that I gave to a Border Patrolman who said I can climb that fence. I said come on out and do it, and we'll stop it right now. And he said I'll get back with you. Senator Cornyn climbs that fence, we'll shut it down.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Congressman, this is Tom Foreman. When efforts have been made in the past to squeeze tight in Texas or California or New Mexico or Arizona, what tends to have happened is that people have simply moved to where there isn't such a tight squeeze. Maybe you stopped them there. But how do you know they were stopped from going across in Arizona when you stopped them near San Diego?
HUNTER: Well, that's why the bill provides for the fence across the full 12 smuggling corridors across the U.S., including Arizona, including New Mexico. And when I started building this fence about 10 years ago, I went to the Arizona delegation and to the Texas delegation, and they told me, in those days, they said they didn't want to have an obstruction across the border. They wanted to have -- quote -- "a friendly border." Well, now they've got one.
But I think because the border is now a security issue, it's no longer simply an immigration issue, it's obviously -- you have to know two things. Who's coming into America? And what are they bringing into America? And we certainly have the ability to build this fence. It's very simple. It's a simple construction, and we can build it concurrently in the 12 major smuggling thoroughfares across the Southwest.
BLITZER: Congressman, I want you to -- I don't know if you can see this, but Tom Foreman's got a map. He's going to show our viewers some of the issues that you're raising right now.
FOREMAN: One fundamental question we have to raise here. Look at -- this is border. You can see the border running all across here. This is down in Nogales, where along parts of the wall, Wolf, about 60 miles of the wall, there are -- the border -- there are walls in place of some measure. But I'm telling you, this is Nogales right here. And if you move down, you can see that shadow through the middle. That is the wall, and this is what the wall looks like there. You see that man climbing over the wall?
I stood right at that spot one day doing a story on illegal crossings. All of a sudden, I heard the wall rattle. A man appeared at the top of it. I said hola. He said hola, jumped down, and walked into America. Congressman, how will your wall stop that? They've got a wall; it doesn't work.
HUNTER: Mr. Foreman, I invite you to come out to San Diego with me. And the point of our fences -- it's not a wall. It's a double fence. In fact, it's designed for a triple fence. The smuggler or the person who crosses illegally has to cross the primary, which you have in Nogales. He then has to cross a 50-yard Border Patrol road. And he then has to scale a 15-foot high fence with a large overhang.
Now, if you get somebody who can do that while a Border Patrolman is standing in between him and that secondary fence or the third fence that he then has to cross, I want to show you one of the greatest Olympians of all time.
FOREMAN: Can you get enough Border Patrolmen for 2,000 miles though?
HUNTER: Well, the beautiful thing about having a fence, an impediment -- and this was designed by our anti-drug analysis that we did a number of years ago. If you have the impediment -- that is, the fence -- you stop what we call the old bonsai attacks where thousands of people would come across at the same time. The impediment stops them. And because we have the fence in San Diego, where we have the fence, we have been able to pull hundreds of border patrolmen off that area and we've been able to move them to other areas. So if you have the fence, you greatly leverage your abilities, and you don't need as many people.
BLITZER: Congressman Hunter, thanks very much for joining us. Congressman Duncan Hunter is the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Republican of California. Appreciate it.
HUNTER: Thank you, Wolf. Come on down with your pole vaulters.
BLITZER: All right. I'll send Tom Foreman down there. He's an expert in that line of work. Thanks very much, Tom, to you as well.
Still ahead, should taxpayers still be paying former FEMA Director Mike Brown? It's our question of the hour. Jack Cafferty's going through your email. He's coming up next.
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BLITZER: Here's a look at some of the "Hot Shots" coming in from our friends over at the Associated Press, pictures likely to be in your hometown newspapers tomorrow.
In Ramadi, Iraq, a child's funeral. This boy cries as a child who was found dead in the rubble of a collapsed home is buried. According to residents, the incident happened after a U.S. fighter jet dropped two bombs on what the U.S. military described as an insurgent command center.
In Pakistan, some relief. Quake survivors carry just-delivered bottles of water. Pakistani authorities say at least 73,000 people died in the massive quake, millions more have been left homeless.
In southern England, severe weather. A windsurfer takes advantage of 60 mile an hour winds that battered the coast overnight.
Now to Prague, this mother and daughter are about to become TV stars. Sixteen cameras are going to be installed in the gorilla pavilion at a zoo for a new gorilla reality TV series. Audience members will text message a vote for their favorite gorilla. All money the raised will help save animals in natural habitat.
That's today's "Hot Shots", pictures often worth a thousand words.
Let's go to the CNN Center once again. Zain Verjee is standing by with a closer look at some other stories making news. Zain?
VERJEE: Wolf, the French government is grappling with a mounting crisis after seven straight nights of rioting that started in the Paris suburbs and has now spread to 20 towns. Initially the violence was prompted by the deaths of two teenagers. They were electrocuted when they hid inside a power station from police. They thought police were chasing them. Police say they were not pursuing the boys.
United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan is urging countries to prepare for a possible bird flu pandemic. He warns should the virus mutate for human-to-human transmission, the situation could rapidly spin out of control. And he said world leaders can not afford to ignore the threat. Bird flu has infected more than 120 people in Southeast Asia, half of whom have died from it.
Some schoolchildren in hurricane-hit regions of Florida went back to school on Tuesday -- excuse me, today. Students in Miami-Dade County attended classes for the first time since Hurricane Wilma's violent visit last month. Other schools plan to reopen soon.
And in New York, authorities have arrested the son of Miami's Police Chief John Timoney. The son, 25-year-old Shawn Timoney is accused of trying to buy 400 pounds of marijuana from an undercover federal agent with $450,000 in cash. He'll have a bail hearing tomorrow. Miami Police Chief Timoney used to work for the New York Police Department.
Wolf.
BLITZER: That's a lot of pot right there, Zain. Thank you very much.
From the United Nations to the World Wide Web, bird flu sparking very serious concern, appropriately so. Jacki Schechner once again is here to check the situation online. Jacki?
SCHECHNER: Wolf, we wanted to take a closer look at the migratory pattern of wild birds. And we found this interesting interactive tool online from the Alaska Science Center. Essentially, what we are talking about here is that scientists from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services are tracking the patterns of migratory birds basically to find out whether or not bird flu can get here in this way.
Now this tool is online, again from the Alaska Science Center. And it shows you one particular migratory pattern they call it Pacific flyway. And this pattern starts in 2002, June of 2002, takes you through September of 2002. When that starts --
I can speed it up -- but essentially what happens here, the birds hopscotch a couple of countries across the Pacific: Russia, China, Korea, ending up right by Vietnam. And then about springtime, the birds are going to make their way back across the Pacific. I'll show you there. It will take a little while. The birds obviously flying over the course of the year.
Again, this interactive tool online at Alaska Science Center. It's neat to take a look at. We picked the yellow billed loom to show you here. But there are several different kind of birds that they're tracking, Wolf.
BLITZER: Thanks scary stuff too. Thanks very much, Jacki, for that.
Jack Cafferty is going through our email. He's got a scary question today. What do you got, Jack?
CAFFERTY: You know, I just would be willing to get you can get no information at all about the yellow billed loon if you're watching the F-word network. Only here in THE SITUATION ROOM do we have the migratory habits of the yellow billed loon.
Speaking of loons, there's a picture of Michael Brown. There's some new -mails released by a House committee investigating the response to Katrina. And in some of them, the former FEMA director, Michael Brown, is bragging to co-workers about his shirt that he bought at Nordstrom's. He calls himself a fashion God in one of them. In another, he's asking if anybody knows where he can get a dog sitter.
Now, Brown resigned two weeks after Katrina hit. These were e- mails written at the height of the storm, the day of and the day after Katrina.
Since he resigned, he has been on the government payroll as a consultant. His lawyer told "USA Today" the committee should focus on FEMA's budget and other issues instead of on e-mails. Nah. The emails are much better.
Here's the question. Should the taxpayers still be paying FEMA Director Michael Brown?
John in Odessa, Texas writes: "Most men are paid for what they do. Some men are paid for what they know. And the rest are paid to keep their mouth shut."
Zennei in Oakland, California: "Sure, if you want to keep Mr. Brown well supplied in the latest in fashion. Personally, considering his conduct and the deaths due to FEMA delays, I think Mr. Brown would look great in prison clothes."
Debbie in Lebanon, Connecticut writes: "No. And he should be sentenced to community service. Let the fashion king roll up his sleeves and help some of Katrina's victims scrub the mold off their walls, maybe then he'll get it."
Trever in Washington, D.C.: "I think you're making way too much of this, Jack. It was a couple of emails for god's sake. I think Michael Brown did the best he could with what he had. If he's on the FEMA payroll, there's probably a good reason for it. Lay off the man."
And Patrick in Pasadena, California writes: "I hope they're still paying Michael Brown, because I plan to sue him and I want to make sure he has some money. You see, I work for UPS, and because of bad publicity associated with Brown, we're considering going with another color."
If you want to read these emails, by the way, they're on our Web site CNN.com. Pretty interesting stuff if you want to just go and browse through them. There's a lot of them. And they're interesting reading if you've got a half hour to kill.
BLITZER: All right. Jack, thank you very much.
Still ahead here in THE SITUATION ROOM, the president and the polls. Where is Mr. Bush losing support? We'll break down the latest numbers when we go inside politics.
Plus, making good on a World Series bet. Texas lawmakers pay up. You stay with us, because you're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
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BLITZER: Almost time for the markets to close. Let's go to Susan Lisovicz in New York. She's sitting in for Ali Velshi. Susan?
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