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The Situation Room
President Bush Completes Trip In Panama; Gov. Schwarzenegger On Shaky Ground
Aired November 07, 2005 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer and you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information from around the world are arriving all the time.
Happening now, it's 4:00 p.m. in Panama where President Bush talks about terror and torture and defends America's handling of detainees.
Here in Washington, new fuel is poured on the fire raging over the handling of prewar intelligence. Did the president and his top aides know they were using a discredited source for their claims of an Iraq/al Qaeda connection?
It's 1:00 p.m. in California, where polls show Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger on shaky ground as he throws his muscle behind ballot propositions that are decidedly unpopular with voters. Is he hurting his own chances for reelection?
You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
All that coming into THE SITUATION ROOM right now, but first, this just in coming from Australia.
The Australian Broadcasting Corporation is reporting that Australian authorities have foiled what they are calling, a large- scale terrorist strike, a terrorists attack. They've arrested, according to Australian television, 15 people during raids in the country's two biggest cities of Sydney and Melbourne.
Let me quote now from the New South Wales police commissioner, Ken Moroney, who told ABC Radio, Australian Broadcasting Corporation, "I am satisfied that we have disrupted what I would regard as the final stages of a large-scale terrorist attack or the launch of a large-scale terrorist attack here in Australia".
Only a few days ago, the Australian prime minister, John Howard, was saying that Australia had received specific and credible information of a terror plot against Australia, a close U.S. ally. He said the Australian authorities were attempting to deal with it. Now apparently, at least according to Australian television, they have.
We're going to get more information. We're going to go to Sydney and Melbourne live, get the latest information on what exactly was going on, who was targeted, what the threat was. We'll bring that to you as soon as we get it.
Moving on to other important news we're following here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
President Bush has just wrapped up a trip to Latin America, marked by some stinging criticism of U.S. policy in Iraq and in the war against terror.
As he heads home, the president faces more criticism on the reported secret prisons that have apparently been used to hold some terror suspects. And Congress is working right now on possible rules to govern the handling of detainees. Mr. Bush today addressed those issues saying -- quote -- "we do not do torture".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our country is at war. And our government has the obligation to protect the American people. The executive branch has the obligation to protect the American people. The legislative branch has the obligation to protect the American people. And we are aggressively doing that.
We are finding terrorists and bringing them to justice. We are gathering information about where the terrorists may be hiding. We are trying to disrupt their plots and plans. Anything we do to that effort, to that end, in this effort, any activity we conduct is within the law. We do not torture. And therefore, we're working with Congress to make sure that as we go forward, we make it possible, more possible to do our job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Let's immediately go to our White House correspondent Dana Bash. She's traveling with the president in Panama City. Dana, this is really a feud, a debate that's going on between the vice president, Dick Cheney, and Senator John McCain, who himself was a POW who was tortured during the Vietnam War. What's going on right now from the White House perspective?
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, what was interesting in listening to the president is maybe what he didn't answer. Part of the question to him this morning here in Panama, was first of all about reports of secret detention camps. He didn't touch that one at all.
Also, whether or not the Red Cross would, or should be able to inspect any kind of camps, any place where there are detainees -- and particularly in these reported secret camps. He didn't touch that.
But as you mentioned, there is a big discussion, a big feud going on between the White House, specifically the vice president and his office, and Congress. Of course, from the congressional point of view, John McCain is leading the fight. But there is broad support for what Congress passed, the Senate passed -- that is, a total ban on torture.
When the president talks about the law, some Democrats and even probably John McCain would say, he's missing the point. The big question is, what is the law? The differences that people in Congress and the president have over that. What they say from John McCain to even frankly John Warner, is that there should be an outright ban. It should be the law of the U.S. land to ban any kind of torture.
What the vice president's office is pushing is an exemption for the CIA. And Congress are saying that's simply not going to fly.
BLITZER: Is there any indication, Dana, based on your sources at the White House, the president might veto this legislation if this ban that John McCain and some 90 senators want, if this ban is included? We know the vice president, Dick Cheney, has been lobbying Republicans especially, not to go along with McCain.
BASH: That's right. As you know, the president is sort of loath to use his veto pen. He never has done that. Their M.O. generally over the past almost five years at the White House has been to try to negotiate compromise before it even gets to the point. That is exactly what we're seeing right now. They're not even talking about that at this point, Wolf.
BLITZER: Dana Bash reporting for us from Panama City. Dana, thank you very much.
Let's get back to that Breaking News we were reporting at the top of this hour -- a report that Australian authorities have foiled what they believe to be a large-scale terror plot in Australia.
Our terrorism analyst Peter Bergen is joining us now on the phone. Peter, give us some context of what's going on in Australia right now. Because it's based on the information I think I have, the Australians themselves within Australia have not yet been the target of a specific al Qaeda or Islamist terror strikes.
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: That's almost true, Wolf. There was one other example of an Australian citizen, a guy by the name of Jack Roche, who was affiliated with both al Qaeda and also Jama Islamiya, which is basically this sort of al Qaeda franchise operation in Southeast Asia, particularly in Indonesia and Thailand.
This guy, Roche, was casing the Israeli consulate in Australia, in the time period before 9/11. He's been convicted. He's been sentenced to a number of years. So he's the first example that we've seen.
Now these, we don't know much about the details of this part, but they appear to be casing significant targets in Sydney. This would be the second time. It comes in the context of the Australians, just in the last few days, introducing much harsher penalties for things like glorification of terrorism, the kinds of things that we've seen a lot in England, of clerics talking up Jihad. The Australians moving to crack down on that.
BLITZER: The ABC -- the Australian Broadcasting Corporation -- Web site is reporting they've arrested six men alleged to be planning a terror attack in Australia. One official in New South Wales saying they're currently being interviewed by police. My expectation is they will appear in Sydney courts this morning -- Australia already being way ahead of us in terms of time. Commissioner Moroney also saying, I am satisfied that we have disrupted what I would regard as the final stages of a terrorist attack or the launch of a terrorist attack in Australia.
Australians were the target in Bali. A lot of Australians were killed in Indonesia in that al Qaeda attack. But as you correctly point out, Australian territory itself has been pretty much secure, at least until now. Give us a sense of what the Australian role in the war on terror has been.
BERGEN: Well, the Australians, because of the Bali attack that killed 88 Australians, and an attack that killed something like 200 people, are being extremely sensitive to those.
When you talk to senior terrorism officials, they point out that 88 Australians dying, if you compare the populations of Australia to the United States, is something like 1,400 Australians dying in terms of proportion.
The Bali attack was an incredibly important moment for the Australians. They've been very concerned about terrorism in their region, particularly emanating from this al Qaeda affiliate group Jamia Islamiya, that is principally based in Indonesia, but also has cells in Singapore and Thailand and around the region.
I would not be surprised -- we still don't know much about this plot yet, but it would not be surprising if the people arrested in Sydney have some connection to this al Qaeda franchise operation in the Southeast Asia area, Jamia Islamiya.
BLITZER: We at CNN have just confirmed the information coming into the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. We'll check back with you, Peter. Thank you very much.
Staying on the same subject -- terrorism, the war on terror. President Bush will face another simmering problem when he gets home. That would be the CIA leak probe and the indictment of the vice president's former right-hand man, Lewis Scooter Libby. Democrats right now making some serious demands about that.
Let's head up to Capitol Hill. Our congressional correspondent Ed Henry is standing by. Ed, what's going on?
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, Democrats are pouncing on this leaked memo from the weekend suggesting that the administration used a discredited source to make some of their prewar claims about Saddam Hussein.
Democrats also today jumping, basically, on President Bush's denial that the U.S. is using torture. Democrats pointing out this is coming on the same day that the "Washington Post" has a report detailing Vice President Cheney's lobbying efforts up here to water down this torture -- anti-torture legislation.
You mentioned a moment ago, Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid said he wants to get to the bottom of all of this with a 9/11-style independent commission to investigator torture. He also, as you mentioned, put the heat on the White House and said he wants President Bush to promise he will not pardon Scooter Libby.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HARRY REID, (D-NV) SENATE MINORITY LEADER: I don't know whether we're going to call this Libbygate or Pardongate, but I think the president should come forward now - now -- and say he's not going to pardon any of the people involved in the leaking of classified information. He should do that.
I think that with his not coming forward to say that, it sends a message to the American people that isn't a very good positive message.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Republicans immediately punched back. Republicans like Senator John Cornyn taking to the Senate floor to say these attacks are political, and they are empty because the Democrats have not yet come up with an alternative on Iraq of their own.
Wolf.
BLITZER: Ed Henry reporting for us. Thank you, Ed, very much.
And this note -- the debate over the administration's handling of prewar intelligence clearly heating up as we just heard from Ed. Coming up, I'll speaking with Democratic Senator Carl Levin. He says the administration continued to claim an Iraq/al Qaeda link long after U.S. intelligence had formally discredited the source. Details on that still to come.
Let's move on. The situation in Iraq right now. Four U.S. soldiers are dead after a suicide car bomber attacked their checkpoint south of Baghdad today. Meanwhile, the U.S. military is charging five U.S. soldiers with abuse for allegedly punching and kicking detainees.
Let's head to Baghdad. CNN's Aneesh Raman standing by with details. Aneesh?
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, good afternoon. The four Americans killed were all Task Force Liberty soldiers, part of the Third ID responsible for security in and around the capital. They died after a suicide car bomber detonated at their checkpoint south of Baghdad.
In the northern town of Mosul today also Wolf, six U.S. soldiers were wounded after a suicide car bomber detonated along their convoy. So, the MO of the insurgents that tends to target Iraqi civilians, today targeting the U.S. military.
Wolf.
BLITZER: We just heard the president say, "we do not do torture". That was his direct quote. What is the latest allegation being charged against these five Army Rangers? These are elite U.S. forces in Iraq. What are they alleged to have done?
RAMAN: Well, the five soldiers are with the 75th Ranger Regiment. The charges were filed on November 5. They stem, essentially, from an alleged early September incident when three Iraqi detainees were punched, were kicked. The charges, we're told, include assault and battery, maltreatment and dereliction of duty, all violations of the Uniform Code of Military Conduct. Those charges now going to a commanding officer will soon decide whether a court-martial is necessary.
Wolf.
BLITZER: Aheesh Raman, reporting for us from Baghdad. Thank you.
Let's go to New York. Jack Cafferty standing by in New York with his question for this hour. Jack, hi.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: How you doing, Wolf? The president during a joint appearance in Panama today defended the way the U.S. interrogates its detainees and insisted -- quote -- "we do not torture" -- unquote. Mr. Bush said that with the country at war, the government has to protect the American people.
The Senate recently passed legislation banning torture. But the administration, more specifically Vice President Dick Cheney, wants an exemption to that for the CIA. Then we could say most of us don't torture if Cheney gets his way.
Meanwhile, the White House has not confirmed reports about the CIA operating those secret prisons abroad. And of course, we don't have to go too far back in our memories to call up those photographs of those naked prisoners at Abu Ghraib stacked like cord wood outside their cells while they were being taunted by American military personnel.
The question is this. Do you believe the president when he says the U.S. does not torture? CaffertyFile@CNN.com is my address. You can drop us a note on that subject and we'll read some of your responses a bit later.
BLITZER: All right. Jack, you know, starting today, we're going to be on not only 4:00 p.m. Eastern, 5:00 p.m Eastern. Take a break for LOU DOBBS TONIGHT at 6:00 p.m., but at 7:00 p.m., one hour of THE SITUATION ROOM coming up weeknights 7:00 p.m. Eastern.
CAFFERTY: Look, there is no such thing as too much SITUATION ROOM, OK? Let's be clear about that. There is no such thing as too much SITUATION ROOM Well, maybe if they asked us to work really late at night.
BLITZER: 7:00 is OK. Thanks, Jack. We'll get back to you soon.
Coming up this hour, newly declassified documents fueling the debate over prewar intelligence. We'll talk about it with the senior Democrat on the Senate Armed Services Committee, Carl Levin. Also, California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, why he has so much riding on tomorrow's special election in California. Our senior political analyst Bill Schneider is joining us live from California with more on that.
And will President Bush's recent troubles plague Republicans in the upcoming election? We're ready to talk about that in our "Strategy Session."
You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back to THE SITUATION ROOM. The debate over the handling of prewar intelligence on Iraq is heating up again. And new fuel has been added to the fire.
A key Democrat on the Senate Armed Services and Intelligence Committees says the Bush administration continued to claim that Iraq provided chemical and biological weapons, training to al Qaeda long after U.S. intelligence had concluded that information was faulty.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER (voice-over): It was an accusation leveled repeatedly by President Bush in the year leading up to the invasion of Iraq.
BUSH: We've learned that Iraq has trained al Qaeda members in bomb making and poisons and deadly gases.
BLITZER: Then-Secretary of State Colin Powell put his own prestige on the line when he claimed an Iraq/al Qaeda connection at the United Nations as late as February 2003.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Al Qaeda continues to have a deep interest in acquiring weapons of mass destruction. As with the story of Zarqawi and his network, I can trace the story of a senior terrorist operative telling how Iraq provided training in these weapons to al Qaeda.
BLITZER: But Senator Carl Levin, the senior Democrat on the Armed Services Committee, says the administration's assertions were based on a source whose credibility had already been called into question.
Levin cites recently declassified Defense Intelligence Agency documents from February of 2002. They say the source, a jihadist named Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi -- quote -- "lacks specific details on the alleged training of al Qaeda, including the Iraqis involved, the materials they would have used and the location where the training occurred."
The DIA memo concludes -- quote -- "it is possible he does not know any further details. It is more likely this individual is intentionally misleading the debriefers."
(END VIDEOTAPE) BLITZER: Senator Levin notes that al-Libi recanted a number of his claims formally in January 2004, long after the invasion of Iraq.
Earlier today, I spoke with Senator Levin, the key Democrat on both the Armed Services and Intelligence Committees.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Senator Levin, thanks very much for joining us. What is your suspicion? Why did Secretary of State Powell, President Bush make these statements alleging this connection between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein based on this one source, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, if the DIA had already circulated this memo suggesting it was probably a fabrication?
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTE: Well, only they can answer that question. And they ought to answer the question and a lot of other questions about the statements that they made prior to the war about intelligence, which was just simply not there.
And this is an example, one of the prime examples that I've ever seen -- and I've seen a lot of them -- about where administration spokespeople were making statements prior to the war, which were not based on accurate -- not based on the intelligence that they had in front of them.
I mean, here's a situation, Wolf, where you've got the Defense Intelligence Agency saying that the statements that this man was making were misleading, and intentionally misleading of us. And yet, those statements still were used by one administration spokesman after another to make the claim that there was training going on between Iraq and al Qaeda.
BLITZER: And the DIA document of February, 2002, long before the war, long before these other statements, it says specifically that it is more likely this individual is intentionally misleading the debriefers, basically telling then what he thought they wanted to hear.
You've compiled a lot of these examples in this phase two of this Senate Intelligence Committee report that basically makes the case that a lot of the statements the president, the vice president, the secretary of State, were making going into the war were not based on fact.
Is that what you want to have released by the Intelligence Committee now?
LEVIN: Right, we want the Intelligence Committee to look at the statements, which were made by policymakers and determine whether or not those statements were based on the underlying intelligence.
Now, the underlying intelligence may have been wrong or may have been right. And if a policymaker is making a statement based on erroneous intelligence, that's the fault of the intelligence, but that's not the situation here. Here the underlying intelligence said, don't believe this guy. Don't use this guy as a source. And yet, you have the president, the vice president, secretary, the security adviser to the president, all making statements based on this man's information, which the Defense Intelligence Agency did not believe.
And by the way, the Central Intelligence Agency, which said that this source was credible, also had another significant sentence, which was left out whenever the CIA was used by the administration to claim that this source was credible. And that is, that this source did not have firsthand information.
So, by either account, either by using the CIA source or by the DIA source, there is no way that this administration should have been saying that there was training going on between Iraq and al Qaeda, the people who attacked us in the use of biological and chemical weapons.
BLITZER: All right. And that gets to the core of the issue of the point you made, whether the administration was duped by bad intelligence or was playing around with that intelligence.
I want you to listen to what the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee -- you're a member of the Intelligence Committee -- Senator Pat Roberts said yesterday. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. PAT ROBERTS (R), INTELLIGENCE CHAIRMAN: When we did our 511- page WMD report Number One, who said we had an intelligence failure and there was a worldwide intelligence failure, and it was bum intelligence? We interviewed over 250 analysts and we specifically asked them, was there any political manipulation or pressure? Answer, no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The fact of the matter is, senator -- and you signed of on that report of July 7, 2004 -- Conclusion 83 specifically says the committee did not find any evidence that administration officials attempted to coerce, influence, or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capabilities.
Did you find any -- is that statement wrong?
LEVIN: Well, no. We did sign off on that statement because we could not find the evidence that demonstrated. That does not mean, by the way, that there was not evidence alleging that.
And in matter of fact, in our views that we attached to that report that you just quoted, and a number of Democrats attached additional views that said the following and pointed out that the Kerr Commission, which was appointed by the CIA to determine whether or not there was any undue pressure, said the following -- that requests for reporting and analysis of Iraq's links to al Qaeda were steady and heavy in the period leading up to the war, creating significant pressure on the intelligence community to find evidence that supported a connection.
So there was pressure placed on the intelligence committee. What we said in that finding is that we could not find evidence -- we could not prove that pressure succeeded in changing opinions.
But more importantly, this is not a case that we're talking about before in terms of this training issue where the intelligence was wrong. This is a case where the intelligence community had it right. This is a case where the Defense Intelligence Agency said, don't believe this guy. He is intentionally misleading you. So this is the opposite of what the chairman was just talking about.
BLITZER: But was the chairman right when he says that you specifically interviewed 250 intelligence analysts and not one of them said they felt any undue pressure on them to tailor their assessments?
LEVIN: That is correct. None of them would acknowledge that they tailored their assessment. But, again, we quote from two good sources saying that there was heavy pressure on them to do that. We couldn't prove that they did it. But again, I want to emphasize this is the opposite of that.
BLITZER: I understand that.
LEVIN: We signed off on that finding. We could not prove that they changed assessments based on pressure, but what we did prove is there was plenty of pressure on them to do so.
BLITZER: Let me just read to you what Lawrence Di Rita, Pentagon spokesman, said about this report that you released, this unclassified version of this DIA report of February 2002. He says for a single report or a small number of reports to be released now out of context without the analysis or any other indication as to how it may have factored in is troubling and ironic.
That's what they are saying about your report.
LEVIN: If that's the toughest thing they can say about my report, it seems to me they have vindicated the release of this report.
By the way, this is not a characterization that I've made of their report. This is a release of their report, which we were able now to get declassified. And if they have some kind of a context that they want to release, which changes the clear meaning of these words, they ought to release it. They should release that context if they want to say that this is taken out of context.
We've released the entire paragraph, and it is a stunning paragraph. And by the way, the following paragraph is also stunning and very different from what the president was saying when he was saying there is no difference between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein, and you cannot draw a distinction between the two, because what the Defense Intelligence Agency was saying was exactly the opposite. Saddam's regime is intensely secular and wary of Islamic revolutionary movements. Moreover, Baghdad is unlikely to provide assistance to a group it cannot control. They also, it seems to me, were right on target. They were exactly right, the Defense Intelligence Agency. And this, again, is a case where the administration went the opposite direction from what their intelligence community was telling them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And we'll have more of my interview with Senator Carl Levin during the 7:00 p.m. Eastern hour of THE SITUATION ROOM. We'll talk about torture. Is it ever justified to find terrorists and to thwart plots? More coming up with Senator Levin, 7:00 p.m. Eastern.
Our Internet reporter Abbi Tatton is here. She's got a closer look at the situation online as far as these documents are concerned. Abbi?
ABBI TATTON, CNN INTERNET CORESPONDENT: Wolf, Senator Levin has made that newly declassified information available at his Web site there. You can look at the two paragraphs from February, 2002, in which the Defense Intelligence Agency describes al-Libi as likely intentionally misleading debriefers. You can look at it for yourself there.
Also, the DIA letter declassifying that information at levin.senate.gov.
Wolf.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Abbi.
Still ahead here in THE SITUATION ROOM, he's not on the ballot, but California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has a lot to lose or win in tomorrow's election. Bill Schneider is standing by to show us why.
Plus, the deadliest tornado to hit Indiana in more than 30 years. The death toll today rising. We'll have the latest information for you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. Zain Verjee is joining us once again from the CNN Center in Atlanta with a closer look at some other stories making news. Hi, Zain.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Wolf. Searchers in Evansville, Indiana, are draining a lake where a body was recovered in the wake of Sunday morning's deadly tornado. Twenty-two people are now confirmed dead from the killer twister that struck in the wee hours. Eighteen of the victims lived in a trailer park adjacent to the lake. Yesterday's tornado was the most lethal in the U.S. in seven years.
Eleven days and France is still awash in violence. One man beaten on Friday by rioters north of Paris died in a hospital today. He was 61 years old. Almost 150 people have been arrested overnight in the widespread rioting which left another 1,400 vehicles burned. Police were hurt and schools and other buildings were set on fire. And rioters also stoned two buses, seriously injuring a toddler. Observers say that the violence is really rooted in discrimination and high unemployment among France's poor.
Five U.S. Rangers face charges of abuse against detainees in Iraq. They're accused of punching and kicking three detainees while awaiting transfer to a detention facility. A U.S. military statement says the incident occurred on the 7th of September. Now, it didn't disclose any other details about the case. Charges were filed following completion of an investigation into the alleged abuse.
The U.S. Supreme Court has agreed to hear an appeal of an accused terrorist and former driver and bodyguard of Osama bin Laden. The case of Salim Ahmed Hamdan, a Yemeni native, challenges the constitutionality of military tribunals. The tribunals haven't begun yet, pending the outcome of the case. The court's expected to hear the case next February or March.
Wolf.
BLITZER: Zain, does the French government have a plan to deal with these riots? It's getting really, really ugly.
VERJEE: They say they do. They say that their number one priority is to bring back law and order. The French prime minister, Dominic de Villepin, was on French TV just some hours ago and he said, look, this is what we're going to do. We're going to impose curfews across the entire territory whenever it's necessary.
And he also said they're going to call up something like 1,500 reservists to add to the 8,000 police that are out there. He was also asked, look, are you going to bring in the army? And he said, no, we're not at that stage.
BLITZER: Zain, thank you very much. Zain Verjee reporting for us.
Up next, there was much information and plenty of debate in the run-up to the Iraq war. Now, renewed calls to find out what the real intelligence was and exactly how it was used. We'll discuss that open debate in our "Strategy Session".
And why are so many people around the country paying attention to what should be a statewide concern? Virginia's voters head to the polls tomorrow to pick a new governor. We'll tell you why you should care.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: In today's "Strategy Session", three items of major importance to the country: President Bush says the United States does not torture terrorism suspects; the intelligence used in the run-up to the Iraq war; and ironically also with national implications, tomorrow's election for a new governor in Virginia.
Joining us now, two CNN political analysts, Paul Begala, also a Democratic strategist, Torie Clarke, a former Pentagon spokeswoman.
This torture story, Torie, is getting very, very hot and the split, even among Republicans, getting very intense.
Listen to what Senator Chuck Hagel, Republican of Nebraska said yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: I think the administration's making a terrible mistake in opposing John McCain's amendment on detainees and torture. Why in the world they're doing that, I don't know. You've got 90 senators out of 100 -- and that includes many Republicans -- opposed to it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Why in the world is the vice president, specifically, and the president today, making a big issue out of this and refusing to go along with what Senator John McCain wants?
VICTORIA CLARKE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Look. I know the vice president and John McCain care very, very deeply about this issue. They both recognize the importance of getting information to protect this country. They both recognize and appreciate what this means in terms of the standing of the United States around the world. They care deeply about this.
I also happen to think, just thinking about this strategically, when it comes to anything to do with treatment of prisoners and detainees, John McCain is going to have the upper hand in the court of public opinion because he was a POW. He has a lot of clout on this issue with good reason.
It's not an issue that is well served by being debated publicly. There are very, very sensitive issues at stake here. I do think an enormous effort needs to be made behind the scenes to work with people like John McCain, and other members of the Senate on both sides of the aisle who care deeply about it, to come to some resolution on this issue. But a resolution that is appropriate for the 21st century, not for World War II, for what we're dealing with today.
BLITZER: After 9/11, the rules apparently, at least according to the vice president, have changed.
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: That's the argument he's making. I think Torie makes a good point. This is not a fight the president wants or needs or should want or need at this stage. He's desperately unpopular right now, the low point of this presidency. And he is arguing against a former torture victim, John McCain, and against Chuck Hagel who just showed, the senator from Nebraska, highly decorated combat veteran, and John Warner, the Republican old bull chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, himself a former secretary of the Navy.
The president and the vice president are out there in a way that they can't defend. And what they're trying to do is argue against these very impressive Republicans as well as all the Democrats that torture somehow is not antithetical to our moral or our military standards.
BLITZER: Today, only within the past couple hours, we learned that the U.S. Army has formally charged five elite Army Rangers with mistreating, abusing Iraqi prisoners in Iraq, all of which is sort of related to what's going on right now.
CLARKE: The U.S. Army and the U.S. military is not about torture. They don't do that. Whenever there is any allegation of any impropriety of this sort, it is taken very, very seriously. The military takes these matters very, very seriously as indicated by what you just reported.
BLITZER: But should there be one set of rules for the military and a separate set of rules for the CIA, for civilians, and a third set of rules for defense contractors?
CLARKE: Absolutely not. I mean, what matters is...
BLITZER: That's what McCain wants. He wants one set of rules for everybody.
CLARKE: I don't think there should be, but I do think this is an issue that needs to be dealt with, with the highest level of seriousness and a lot of intensive discussion largely behind the scenes -- the elected representatives at the highest levels working with this administration, dealing with rules that work for the 21st century.
BLITZER: Sometimes the president, as you know -- and you served under President Clinton -- has to take unpopular decisions if he or someday maybe she believes it's in the national security interests.
BEGALA: Well then the president has to make that case, but he hasn't yet. He certainly didn't today in his press availability. The problem he has is trying to say that things that cross the line into torture are somehow OK. And the problem is not with the military.
CLARKE: He made it very clear that torture is not OK. He made that very clear.
BEGALA: It depends on what the meaning of torture is.
CLARKE: He didn't say that. He was very clear about that.
BEGALA: His administration put forward a memo that suggested that torture is only treatment that causes death or the failure of major bodily organs that then cause death. That's an extreme definition of torture, and that is not what any American would think of as torture. Much less than that is torture.
BLITZER: From torture to politics. Very quickly, Torie, the Virginia...
CLARKE: Politics can be torture, not to make light of this.
BLITZER: The Virginia governor race tomorrow, how much is at stake for President Bush in that contest tomorrow? How much of his credibility, his reputation, his popularity is riding on it?
CLARKE: I don't think, quite honestly, it is that significant in terms of President Bush. It's a very important race, obviously, an important state. I think Kilgore probably will win, but I don't think this is about the president of the United States. People do not get elected governor of big states based on one person or one event or one visit. It's based on their overall record and how they're doing in the campaign.
BLITZER: Larry Sabato of the University of Virigina, who knows a log about Virginia politics, quoted in the "L.A. Times" on Saturday, "It nationalizes the Virginia election and raises the stakes for Bush. One things's for sure, if Kilgore" -- that's the Republican candidate -- "loses, Bush will take a spanking."
BEGALA: What the president has done is the worst thing he could do to Jerry Kilgore. He's not following Torie's advice and allowing the guy to run his own campaign. It's a very Republican state, Virginia. Bush trounced Kerry in Virginia.
BLITZER: They do have a Democratic incumbent as governor right now.
BEGALA: And here's the interesting lesson. The Democratic incumbent Governor Mark Warner raised taxes and he's the most popular governor in memory. The president is desperately unpopular now in Virginia. The last thing he should do is go in there.
By the way, you know what he ought to do? He shouldn't fly straight home from Panama to Virginia to do a political event. He should go to Indiana where 23 of his countrymen were just killed in a tornado. He is once again going to fly over people victimized by a disaster to help a politician. That's a huge error for this president.
BLITZER: We've got to leave it there because we're out of time. Thanks very much, Paul and Torie.
Coming up, Virginians, as we just pointed out, poised to pick up a governor in tomorrow's election. We'll show you why the race is attracting a lot of attention.
Plus, pirates. Yes, pirates. Why they're a very real and dangerous threat, as passengers on one cruise ship learned firsthand.
You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
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BLITZER: Tomorrow, Virginia voters head to the polls to elect a new governor. And any other year, the race might look like a high school football game, passionately watched by the locals, but not necessarily likely to get very much national attention. But this year's race could be the political canary in the coal mine.
Our national correspondent Bruce Morton is joining us now live to explain. Bruce?
BRUCE MORTON, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, you know Virginia. That's where Thomas Jefferson and James Madison and George Washington embedded a democracy. So what, you may ask, is Adolf Hitler doing in the middle of the governor's election? Well, it's all about the death penalty. Virginia has it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MORTON (voiceover): Lieutenant Governor Tim Kaine, the Democrat, is Catholic and opposes the death penalty, but says as governor, he'd enforce the law. In an ad for Republican Jerry Kilgore, Stanley Rosenbluth, whose son was murdered, attacks Kaine.
STANELY ROSENBLUTH, SON MURDERED: Tim Kaine says that Adolph Hitler doesn't qualify for the death penalty. This was the worst mass murderer in modern times.
MORTON: What Kaine really said to the "Richmond Times Dispatch," when asked if he would put Hitler to death was -- quote -- "God grants life and God should take it away. Do horrible heinous things deserve incredible punishment? You bet."
And Kilgore scoffs at Kaine's statement that he'd obey Virginia law.
JERRY KILGORE (R), VIRGINIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Tim Kaine owes it to the people of Virginia to stand up and stand on his own record.
TIM KAINE (D), VIRGINIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Their argument seems to be that because I'm Catholic and have a faith-based opposition to the death penalty that I can't follow my oath of office. I think that's an insult to Catholics. It's an insult to any person of faith.
MORTON: Each has a big brother who, as it happens, may run for president in 2008. Kilgore has the support of popular Senator George Allen and campaigns as a traditional conservative.
KILGORE: His instincts are very liberal. Mine are conservative in nature. And I think the voters will understand that.
MORTON: Lieutenant Governor Kaine stresses that he's worked with popular Governor Mark Warner.
KAINE: We've made advancements in the last four years, Mark Warner and I working together, and he's been against them. Transportation we've advanced, he's been against us. Health care we've advanced, he's been against us.
(END VIDEOTAPE) MORTON: President Bush is making a last-minute appearance for Jerry Kilgore, the Republican, in Richmond this evening. Given the president's low ratings in the polls these days, people may wonder whether that will help or hurt. It may come down to whether Kilgore's negative ads will work, as they often do, or backfire, in what almost everybody agrees is a very, very, very close race.
Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Bruce, thank you very much. Bruce Morton. We'll watch that contest tomorrow.
Coming up, do you believe the president when he says the United States does not torture? It's our question of the hour. Jack Cafferty is standing by with your email.
Plus, Pete Rose Jr, the son of the famous slugger, facing some very serious charges. We'll show you what he's accused of.
Stay with us.
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BLITZER: As we noted, tomorrow is Election Day. In New Jersey, the governor's race was supposed to be a cakewalk for multimillionaire Democrat Senator Jon Corzine. Republican Doug Forester, also a millionaire, was closing the gap for a while but he may fall short.
In the latest Quinnipiac University Poll released today, Corzine leads among likely voters, 52-45 percent. Both New Jersey candidates for governor say they're simply running aggressive campaigns, but some say there's some more grime and dirt than at a mud fight. Let's turn to the campaigns online.
Our Internet reporter Abbi Tatton has more on that. Abbi?
TATTON: Wolf, last minute online campaign going on in New Jersey. Looking at the two rival sites at John Corzine's official site, get out the vote efforts. You can click through to get a ride to the polls or to suggest yourself as a volunteer tomorrow.
These are the last minute efforts, but this has been going on all year. They had hired veteran liberal blogger Matt Staller, who's been blogging the entire campaign at CorzineConnection.com.
Change that Web dress by just one letter to CorzineConnections.com and you get a site from the rival Doug Forester accusing John Corzine of links to corrupt figures at that site. At Doug.com, Forester's official site, also last minute attempts to get out the vote, sending out emails to 100,00 of their registered members urging them to vote tomorrow.
Wolf.
BLITZER: Actually corrupt figures or allegedly corrupt figures?
TATTON: Allegedly corrupt figures, that from Doug Forester's site.
BLITZER: All right, good. Thanks very much, Abbi Tatton, for that.
Still to come, in the president's own words, the U.S. does not torture terror detainees. But what do you think? Jack Cafferty's been going through your email.
The fires and frustrations are burning in France. How long will those riots go on? We're going to go live to Paris for the details.
Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's go right to Jack Cafferty in New York with more. Jack?
CAFFERTY: Thanks, Wolf. President Bush today defended the way the U.S. interrogates its detainees and insisted -- quote -- "we do not torture." The Senate passed legislation recently banning torture, but the administration, led by vice president Cheney, wants an exemption for the CIA.
The question is, do you believe the president when he says the U.S. does not torture?
Horacio in Philadelphia writes: "No, I do not believe the president. Not because he means to lie, because it seems to me he's completely unaware of the multiple facets of his government. The CIA will do whatever it takes to obtain information, and that's good."
Bob in Kentucky writes: "After the 16 words in the States of the Union, his U.N. speech prior to starting the war, 'Brownie you're doing a heck of a job' and many other lies and/or con-jobs, I'd have to check the calendar if he said today was Monday.
Alan in Burlington, Kansas, writes: "That depends on what the definition of the word 'is' is. In this case, what the definition of the word 'we' is. We don't torture prisoners, but do we allow others to torture prisoners on our behalf?"
Dirk writes: "In one item, you report on four soldiers killed in a car bombing, and then you make some big deal about some Rangers roughing up a couple of prisoners. What's wrong with this picture? Maybe you should move THE SITUATION ROOM to Baghdad and lose your sanctimonious attitude."
And Nani (ph) in Sunrise, Florida, write: "Are you referring to Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, or listening to W speak? Whatever the case, it's torture."
BLITZER: Jack, thank you very much. We'll check back with you soon.
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