Return to Transcripts main page
The Situation Room
Congressman Murtha Calls For Immediate Troop Withdrawal From Iraq; Many Republicans Urging Rudi Giuliani To Make 2008 Presidential Bid
Aired November 17, 2005 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: You are in THE SITUATION ROOM where new pictures and information from around the world arriving all the time.
Happening now, rising anxiety about Iraq. A usually hawkish Democrat appealing for an immediate troop pull-out. Top Republicans warning against cutting and running. How far has the anti-war tide turned? I will ask the congressman who made the appeal: John Murtha. He'll join me live in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Also this hour, fighting words from Senator John Kerry. Does he still have the fire in his belly to become president? You will get the first taste of my revealing interview with the Democrats' 2004 nominee.
And feeling a draft? The former New York City mayor, Rudy Giuliani, is being pushed toward the White House whether he wants the top job or not. If he does run, could this moderate Republican win?
I'm Wolf Blitzer. You are in THE SITUATION ROOM.
In a week when unease about Iraq seems to have reached critical mass on Capitol Hill, many Democrats feeling energized, including the man whose concerns about war were a big part of his unsuccessful campaign for the White House last year -- Senator John Kerry. I sat down with the senator in his office earlier today on Capitol Hill to talk about Iraq, presidential politics and more. So will he run again for president again three years from now?
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY, (D) MASSACHUSETTS: Would I like to be president? Yes, obviously, I ran for the job. I think I would have made a good president for America, a strong president. I would have had us in a different place from where we are today. But that's in the past.
Now my job is to help us provide alternatives to the country in 2006. And that is what I am focused on is helping senators, helping congressmen, helping mayors. I was out campaigning -- helping governors. I was campaigning in New Jersey, helping Tim Kaine in Virginia.
We need to do all we can to make 2006 the choice that I think people really want to make and need to make in light of what's happening in our country. And then we'll see where we are.
BLITZER: Do you think you can beat Hillary Clinton in a Democratic primary?
KERRY: Well, I don't know if Hillary is running, not running. Who knows who is running or not running? I am not running, yet. We need to see where we're at.
I will tell you this, if I decide to run and I get into the race -- and it won't depend on who else is running -- but if I get in that race, having learned what I learned and the experience I had last year, I think I know how to do what I need to do, and I will run to win. And that's what I will do if I decide to run.
BLITZER: When will you make that decision?
KERRY: Oh, sometime after next year's elections, when we have all had a chance to let the dust settle a little and see where we are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Much more of my interview with Senator Kerry ahead in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Coming up, we'll find out what he has to say about a fellow Democrat's new call for an immediate troop pullout from Iraq. That Democratic congressman is John Murtha. And he made an emotional appeal today to withdraw U.S. troops now. And it carries weight because he supported the Iraq war as a veteran himself and is considered influential on many military issues.
Some Republicans say Murtha wants America to surrender, though, to terrorists.
Our congressional correspondent Ed Henry is following this story on Capitol Hill. He's joining us now live. Ed, the fireworks are getting a little lively.
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. And despite those allegations from Republicans, John Murtha says he's driven by a moral obligation to speak out on behalf of the troops who he says have done their job but have now become the target.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. JOHN MURTHA, (D) PENNSYLVANIA: Everything they can do. The military has done everything they can do. This war has been so mishandled from the start. Not only was the intelligence bad, the way they disbanded the troops -- there's all kinds of mistakes that have been made.
HENRY (voice-over): Republican Speaker Dennis Hastert fired back that Murtha, who voted for the war, is now waving -- quote -- "the white flag of surrender to the terrorists of the world." Tough talk, following the vice president's line of attack. DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What we are hearing now is some politicians contradicting their own statements and making a play for political advantage in the middle of a war.
HENRY: Asked about the jabs from the vice president as well as President Bush, Murtha's response was direct and personal.
MURTHA: I like guys who have never been there to criticize us who have never been there. I like that. I like guys who got have five deferments and never been there and send people to war and then don't like to hear suggestions about what needs to be done.
HENRY: Senior Republicans express respect for Murtha, but say he's wrong.
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER, (R) CALIFORNIA: The Democrats who have undertaken this initiative have made a mistake. I think they have underestimated the toughness of the American people. And the understanding that if we don't change the world, the world is going to change us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Now, Murtha's Democratic colleagues are ratcheting up their rhetoric. Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid today charging that the president and vice president's attacks are weak and spineless, in his words. But Democrats like Reid are not yet signing on to Murtha's resolution calling for the immediate withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq. So far he's a strong voice, but a lonely voice.
Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. Ed Henry reporting for us from Capitol Hill. Ed, thank you very much.
Let's go to the president -- he's in South Korea right now -- get some reaction how he's feeling the heat all the way in South Korea.
Our Dana Bash is reporting for us. Dana, what's the reaction from the presidential entourage?
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, a spokesman -- or a senior official at the White House essentially says, as you can imagine, that the president respectfully disagrees with Congressman Murtha.
The White House thought that they had a pretty good line, if you will, a couple of days ago when the Senate voted against the idea of a timetable for withdrawal. And that was their line on the whole concept of what the Senate was doing in terms of trying to convince the American people, and convince the president that his policy was not working.
And that is something we are hearing again from the White House, saying that the Democrats, at least on the Senate side, made pretty clear that they don't think a timetable is worth it right now and is the right way to go.
But also what the White House is doing is, as they have done many times before, Wolf, pointing to the fact that they listen, the president listens to the generals on the ground in Iraq. And they are pointing to comments by Brigadier General Webster saying -- he's the commander of U.S. forces in Baghdad -- saying that a pullout is a recipe for disaster. So they are saying at the White House that the president welcomes the debate, looking forward in terms of the policy for Iraq.
But it is certainly interesting that what the White House has been doing is hitting back not on the future, not on the policy going forward, but they have been talking primarily from the president to Vice President Cheney and others about the pre-war intelligence, looking backwards. This does frame the debate in a different kind of a way.
Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. Dana Bash in South Korea with the president. We will check back with you. Thank you very much.
Let's check in with Jack Cafferty. He's in New York now, joining us as he does every day here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Nice to see you back two days in a row.
BLITZER: Well, I'm here.
CAFFERTY: Do you think Kerry is going to run again?
BLITZER: I suspect he will.
CAFFERTY: I do, too. I think you are right.
Remember when the president said he wanted $7.1 billion to fight the bird flu? That was a few weeks ago. Well, the money is gone. Congress has cut it from the budget.
We're going to look at the bird flu today. The media is littered with stories about a coming pandemic that's going to kill millions of people. TV screens come alive over and over again with thousands of chickens or ducks as a backdrop to the drum beat of the death of us all. Hey, that's what we do best, scare the hell out of everybody.
But here's the deal. So far bird flu killed birds for the most part. The virus has not mutated into a form where it can pass from one person to another. And maybe it won't. There's no vaccine against the bird flu for people. A grand total of 130 people have been infected with bird flu in the last few years, and 67 people have died. On an Earth with a population of 6.5 billion people, 67 people have died.
Most of the people who get this stuff are the ones who come in direct contact with infected poultry. Hang around a chicken with the flu you might get it. Compare that to AIDS, kills 3 million people a year and there's no cure for it, either.
So, here's the question, "has the bird flu story been over hyped?" You can e-mail as at CaffertyFile@CNN.com, or you can go to CNN.com/Cafferty File -- Mr. Blitzer.
BLITZER: All right. Thanks very much, Jack. We'll get back to you soon. Good question this hour.
Coming up, a smart move that will save lives, or a surrender? The new call for an immediate troop pullout from Iraq. I'll ask Democratic congressman John Murtha about his demand and the fallout.
Plus, is John Kerry rallying behind Murtha, or running away from his proposal? More of my interview with the senator. That's coming up.
And later, how about a Kerry versus Rudy Giuliani race for president? Or a Hillary Rodham Clinton versus Giuliani race? The new push to put the former New York mayor in the White House. We'll tell you what's going on. You are in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: While clashes over Iraq play out here in Washington, President Bush's contributing long-distance, as we just heard, even as he presses on with his tour of Asia. In South Korea today the president was asked about Vice President's Cheney's sharp counter attack against Democrats last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When Democrats say that I deliberately misled the Congress and the people, that's irresponsible. They looked at the same intelligence I did, and they voted, many of them voted, to support the decision I made. It's irresponsible to use politics. This is serious business -- winning this war. But it's irresponsible to do what they have done. So I agree with the vice president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The Bush administration is firing back on several fronts, including over at the Department of Defense.
That's where our Brian Todd is joining us over at the Pentagon. What are they saying there, Brian?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: To representative Murtha's comments, they have generated a very pointed response here at the Pentagon. One senior defense official telling us the remarks are -- quote -- "frustrating". A couple of points that the official takes direct aim at withy the congressman's remarks: To the comment from the congressman that U.S. troops have become the primary target of the insurgency, this senior defense official says -- quote -- "That's irresponsible. What if you were the mother or father of a serviceman and you were told by a member of Congress that your son or daughter was a target?" He also called it irresponsible for the congressman to say that the U.S. military is suffering in Iraq.
And then to the congressman's characterization that the United States and the coalition troops have done all they can do in Iraq. This official says -- quote -- "I challenge that, if we have done all we can do, why are we still engaging in Operation Steel Curtain," that's the offensive near the Syrian border, "Providing security for the Green Zone and going after Zarqawi?"
This official voiced a lot of frustration with the congressman's remarks, saying -- quote -- "Our troops should not be put in the middle of a political debate. Let's get the debate out of emotion and into the facts."
This official and the others we talked to today at the Pentagon have cited the long-standing Pentagon policy of beginning a troop draw down when certain conditions on the ground are met -- conditions including Iraqi security forces taking the lead and maintaining security in Iraq, the political situation in Iraq stabilizing, and, of course, Iraqis voicing and showing a determination on their own to defeat the insurgency on their own, Wolf. So the congressman's remarks are generating a lot of pointed response here.
BLITZER: All right. Brian Todd at the Pentagon. Thank you very much.
Let's head over to the CNN Center in Atlanta. Zane Verjee standing by with a closer look at some other stories making news. Hi, Zain.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, this is just coming in now to CNN. We want to show you some new picture from our local affiliate. This is in Glen Mills, Pennsylvania, a fire has broken out at a boys' school. You can see the images there. The elementary reformatory school, actually, is utterly engulfed with flames. It appears as though the roof has completely collapsed. Emergency services are on the scene. The fire department is there, you can see them trying to throw water on the fire and get it, to some degree, under control. The fire, though, raging in Glen Mills, Pennsylvania.
We understand, though, that there have been no injuries, and we will bring you more information as soon as we get it, Wolf. But this is a fire just coming into CNN in Glen Mills, Pennsylvania, no one has been injured.
There's been a verdict within the last hour in the trial of Joseph P. Smith. A Sarasota, Florida, jury has found him guilty in the kidnap, murder and sexual assault of an 11-year-old. Her abduction in February, 2004, was captured by a security camera at the car wash. The 39-year-old Smith could get the death penalty when he's sentenced on the 28th of November.
One of two inmates who escaped from an Iowa maximum security prison three days three days ago is back in custody. Police are still looking for the other one. Convicted murderer Martin Shane Moon was captured after a brief car and foot chase. The search is still continuing for Robert Joseph Legendre who is serving a life sentence for kidnapping and attempted murder.
There are new threats against the United States and its allies in a videotape seized from a suspected terrorist safe house in Indonesia. It shows a masked man believed to be the leader of Jemaah Islamiyah, a Southeast Asian group that has links to al Qaeda. On the tape, this man says, "Our enemies are America, Australia, England and Italy. You will be the target of our next attack."
And a sad postscript, Wolf, to those bombing at three Jordanian hotels last week, one of which was hosting a wedding party. The mother of the bride has died from injuries she suffered in the attack, and that brings the death toll to 59 victims. The bride's father was also killed along with the father of the groom, Wolf.
BLITZER: What a sad story indeed. Thank you very much, Zane, we'll get back to you soon. Zane Verjee reporting.
Still ahead here in THE SITUATION ROOM, a senior Democrat takes the debate over Iraq to another level by calling for immediate troop withdrawal from Iraq. I will ask Congressman John Murtha why he wants to go where other members of the party don't or won't.
And with growing anxiety about Iraq, the quagmire question is being asked once again. Is this another Vietnam? Has it become another Vietnam? Jeff Greenfield weighing in. He'll be joining us.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: The rising outcry about the situation in Iraq is reminding some people of a time gone by when anti-war sentiment was widespread and intense. But is it fair or accurate to suggest that the Iraq conflict is turning into another Vietnam?
Let's bring in our senior analyst, Jeff Greenfield. Jeff, like me, you lived through that Vietnam era. And the question is being asked, has Iraq become another Vietnam?
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: Well, the short answer is no, or at least not yet, because the differences are pretty stark. The scale is completely different. At the height of the Vietnam War, the U.S. was losing 300, 400, even 500 troops a week killed in a war where we had more than 500,000 people in Vietnam, largely draftees which helped increase the anger at the war.
And you also, interestingly enough, had a kind of smoldering, increasing anger about the war, but you don't have -- as you remember well and I do in the Vietnam era -- massive ongoing protests. And by the way, unlike Vietnam, even the left-most of the protesters are not rooting for the other side. Nobody is chanting slogans and praising Saddam Hussein or the insurgency. So that much is different.
What is reminiscent -- and it's not just Vietnam but other Americans wars like Korea -- is in a case where there's no clear sign of victory or a withdrawal mechanism -- you know, win and get out -- impatience is growing. It was even around in the 2004 campaign. I think there are Republicans who will tell you that Iraq kept the Bush margin lower than it might otherwise have been.
I also think the steady peeling away of support is reminiscent to Vietnam. The key about this John Murtha story, is this is one of the most hawkish Democrats we have in the Congress. He was a Vietnam veteran. He strongly supported the Iraq war. And to see him -- and we've already seen some Republicans -- having second thoughts, that reminds me a little bit of this kind of drip, drip, drip of support dwindling away from the president.
BLITZER: He's going to be joining us, by the way, later this hour, coming up very soon, John Murtha. But I guess what the main argument, or one of the main arguments the administration is making is, these critics, in effect what they are doing -- and this is reminiscent of the Vietnam era -- is they are encouraging the insurgents and undermining the U.S. troops.
GREENFIELD: Yes, and indeed we did hear that in Vietnam. We hear, almost any time when Americans are in harm's way, that criticism is equated with somehow undermining the war effort or encouraging the enemy.
I have to say this insurgency began very shortly after Saddam was toppled. I think it probably is true, by the way -- and was true in Vietnam -- that there is a sense in which the disenchantment with the war, if it leads to a withdrawal, there may be some on the other side who are encouraged, but I think I have to say that this insurgency was growing even at a time when most Americans were in support of the war.
The other, I think, key difference is that even the critics -- Murtha may be an exception -- when -- are pointing to the problems about a disengagement if Iraq is not stabilized. When Vietnam fell in 1975, when all support in the Congress had been withdrawn, we were cutting off funding, President Ford was in a weak position politically. Vietnam fell to a totalitarian communist dictatorship. But the broader geopolitical implications did not happen. That is, international communism disappeared within about a decade and a half after the end of the Vietnam War.
I think there are a lot of critics of the war, particularly its conduct, who will say, you know what? Pulling out now and leaving Iraq in a failed state on the verge of a civil war in the region, in the Middle East, would cause enormous long-term difficulties.
And that's why you have someone, for instance, like James Fallows, a terrific journalist writing in the "New Atlantic." He has written some very pressing pieces about what was going to happen in Iraq, who is saying the only way we can get out, paradoxically, is to invest more in terms of training the Iraqi army and stabilizing the politics, because without an army that can enforce stability and without a political system in Iraq that has at least minimal support from all those feuding Kurds and Shiites and Sunnis, we will never be able to get out.
And so you have this situation where to leave with anything like a victory or even a kind of split decision may require, in Mr. Fallow's view and some Democrats, more. So I think the notion of let's get out, maybe that will -- that's a very important thing, Wolf, which I will finish with.
Notice in the weeks and months ahead whether John Murtha's position gains traction, gains traction in the Democratic Party among its more liberal people, and gains traction even among skeptical Republicans. That's when you're going to see an Iraq-Vietnam equation. I don't think we are there yet though.
Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. We'll be watching. Jeff, thanks very much. Jeff Greenfield.
Up next, the Democrat who has been ratcheting up the debate over Iraq even more. Congressman John Murtha wants American troops to come home now. Is he aiding the enemy, as Republicans charge? John Murtha standing by. He will join us live.
And new shots are fired in the U.S. Supreme Court battle. Wait until you see some of the new ads about Judge Samuel Alito. We'll dissect the spots and the bigger showdown in our "Strategy Session."
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Let's talk about a proposal that was ...
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Sure.
BLITZER: ... put out today by Congressman John Murtha, who is involved in the Armed Services Committee. He says there should be an immediate withdrawal over the next six months of all U.S. troops from Iraq. Good idea?
KERRY: I respectfully disagree with John Murtha. And I laid out a plan which is, I think, a good plan, a solid plan. It builds consistently on everything I said throughout the campaign last year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: My interview with John Kerry. The full interview airs tonight in THE SITUATION ROOM, 7:00 p.m.
Joining us now is John Murtha. He's the ranking Democrat on the Appropriations Subcommittee on Defense, and he's come out today, as our viewers by now know, Congressman Murtha, with a pretty dramatic proposal, an immediate troop withdrawal phased out over the next six months. Why did you decide to do this?
MURTHA: Well I came back from Iraq about two months ago. I looked at the report from the Defense Department, which showed absolutely no progress. I visit the hospitals every week and I see these young men and women who are so unselfish. They don't complained about anything. As a matter of fact, they worry about everything else. I'm so proud of them.
And I came to the conclusion that since we're not making any progress, they've become the targets, 80 percent of the Iraqis want us out of there, 45 percent this it's justified to kill Americans. Our troops have become the targets. The convoys leading the administrative material, the logistics, are what are being attacked. We're vulnerable to attack.
Every day, every convoy is attacked, according to General Huck (ph), who's the Marine commander in Anbar province. And he told me that everything we do, they find a way around it. For instance, right now, the snipers are shooting just underneath the helmets. They blew a Marine light vehicle apart. So it can't be won militarily. I said that a year ago. You heard me say that a year ago. The military now agrees with me. The administration agrees with me. This idea that you have some kind of a military victory -- we're way passed that.
BLITZER: Let me quote to you what Army Major General William Webster -- he's in charge of the Baghdad area, you probably met with him on one of your trips to Iraq -- what he's quoted in the "New York Times" today as saying. He says, "I think setting any sort of date on the calendar is, and I'm trying to think of the right word, a recipe for disaster."
MURTHA: Wolf, let me tell you something. I have heard that before, I've heard -- the military commanders, they say one thing. The troops and families -- the American public is way ahead of us on this. I mean, they want our troops out of there, 80 percent of the Iraqi people want us out of there, 45 percent say it's justified to attack Americans. Turn it over to the Iraqis.
You're not going to win this militarily, you're only going to win it politically. And the Iraqis can only win it politically. Every time we have an operation, we kill people inadvertently, we burn down houses inadvertently. Abu Ghraib, that's when it happened. Abu Ghraib, the casualties doubled.
So we're not in a position -- the military's won a victory. They've done their duty. They've done everything they can do. They toppled Saddam Hussein, they defeated his army, now it's time to bring them home. Now, where I'd put them, I'd put them outside Iraq because then they're not the targets. They are the targets.
BLITZER: All right. Let me read you to what the Republican speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert, said in reacting -- actually his spokesman, what he said reacting to your statement today: "This is a policy of surrendering to terrorists. It is one of retreat and defeat and sends the wrong message to our troops who are bravely fighting in Iraq to keep Americans..."
MURTHA: Wolf, how many times have you heard that? Wolf, come on, give me a break.
BLITZER: I'm telling you that the speaker is saying it.
MURTHA: So the speaker's saying that. So what does that mean? Has the speaker been there? Has the speaker served in the military? Give me a break on this thing. These young people, you go to the hospitals. You've been out to the hospitals, you know how they're torn up.
Now, there's three things. One, the Iraqis want us out, the American public wants us out, the troops are the targets, and you can't win a military victory. Even the military -- General Casey said that we've become occupiers, and General Abizaid (ph) said one of the elements of success is to get our troops out of Iraq, so it's just a matter of time, it's a matter of how you do it. I believe in sooner rather than later.
BLITZER: But even Senator John Kerry, who's an outspoken critic of the administration -- I spent some time with him today -- says he disagrees with you on setting a firm timetable. He wants to get the job done first.
MURTHA: Let me tell you something. How do you measure getting the job done? Oil production is below pre-war level. Electricity is below pre-war level. Water supplies are inadequate. We spent 9 billion out of the $18 billion in reconstruction costs. Why? Because there's no military security.
Now, if we can't provide military security -- the commander of the Marines in Hadifah (ph) in Anbar province can't provide security along the border. He doesn't have enough troops. So you either go to 500,000 troops, which is impossible because we can't even meet the recruitment goal we have now, or you get our troops out there. And the Iraqis want us out of there, the American public want us out of there. It's now a time to change directions.
BLITZER: Is this another Vietnam?
MURTHA: Well, I don't know it's another Vietnam. I just think at some point, you've got to make a decision. This is a flawed policy wrapped in illusion. The illusion is that this is something that can be won militarily. I cannot be won militarily. People think because the Gulf War was won so handily, that it was handled so well, that this is going to be the same way.
You remember what they said. Oil production is going to pay for this. We'll be able to bring democracy. They'll welcome us with flowers in the street. Well, they welcomed us with flowers in the street. This insurgency started way back before there was any criticism of this war, when there was big support of the war.
As far as I'm concerned, the public realizes the deception that has gone on, the dishonesty. I kept saying to Ambassador Bremer, you can't be dishonest with the American people. You've got to tell the American people what this is all about. And this is what's come about. They kept saying how easy it was going to be.
BLITZER: What about the argument that some have made like Senator Biden that if you leave too quickly, Iraq will become, in his words, a haven for terror, sort of the way Afghanistan was under the Taliban.
MURTHA: There was no terror there before we went in, Wolf. There was no terror there, right?
BLITZER: There's plenty of terror there, now.
MURTHA: Yes, and that terror starts escalating. The more troops we've had, the higher the incident. We had 150 incidents a week a year ago, we now have 700 incidents a week now. We have doubled the casualties since Abu Ghraib. This consolidated them against us. This was a time when the Arabs said America's not living up to what they say in the moral standards that they set. They're not following the Geneva Convention.
BLITZER: What are you going to do now? You've made this statement. How much support do you think you have among your Democrats? And do you have any support among Republicans?
MURTHA: Well, Wolf, we take it one step at a time. I struggled with this thing for a long time. I came to the conclusion after I came back from Iraq the last time, after I read the reports we're not making progress. So I'm taking it one step at a time.
This is one of those things where we'll keep working and talking to people. We'll keep trying to convince them this is the right action. This is the way to not only save our troops, but to protect our future.
One of the problems I worry about, the Army is broken. We've got investment in the Army, we've got $50 billion in equipment that's worn out, and ground equipment in particular. We've got all kinds of investment that's short. We've got radios that are short and everything else in the Army. The Army, many people say, are broken. So I'm convinced that there's no alternative, because we've become the enemy, to re-deploy our troops outside of Iraq. In case there's more terrorism, we bring them back in.
BLITZER: Congressman John Murtha, the ranking Democrat on the appropriations subcommittee on defense, taking an outspoken stance. Thanks very much, Congressman, for joining us.
MURTHA: Good to be here.
BLITZER: And in the next hour of THE SITUATION ROOM, we'll get a very different perspective. The chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, John Warner, will be joining us live. That's coming up in the next hour.
And at 7:00 p.m. Eastern in THE SITUATION ROOM, my full interview with Democratic Senator John Kerry.
Coming up, Supreme Court nominee Samuel Alito is dropping in on senators, hoping to win their support. How might some new advertisements for and against this nomination work their way into the confirmation process? We'll talk about that in our strategy session. And could he be president, Rudy Giuliani? Two Chicago men like the sound of that, so they're starting a movement to persuade Giuliani to run.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: In the rhetoric over the Iraq war, are Democrats political opportunists, as the vice president is alleging? Or is the Iraq war based on a flawed policy wrapped in illusion, as a Democrat with 30 years in the Marines says? Here to talk about that, two of our political strategists, Paul Begala, he's a Democratic strategist; Republican strategist Rich Galen.
Jack Murtha, you heard what he just said. Let me play a little clip what he said earlier in the day in announcing this call for an immediate troop pullout from Iraq. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURTHA: I believe we need to turn Iraq over to the Iraqis. I believe before the Iraqi elections, scheduled for mid-December, the Iraqi people in the emerging government must be put on notice, the United States will immediately redeploy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Rich Galen, what do you think?
RICH GALEN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, he obviously feels strongly about it. I think he's wrong, as does almost every other senior Republican and Democrat thinks that he's wrong. But let me say this about the basics of what he's saying.
I was there, as you know, for six months, and he is right. We want to get out and Iraqis want us out. The question is how and when. And I think right now, the build-up of Iraqi security forces, the build-up of military, and the build up of police are getting very close to what I think the on-the-ground commanders and the middle- range officers that I talk to with some regularity feel that they're getting very close to actually accomplishing what Congressman Murtha wants. But announcing in advance, we're leaving on the 13th of December is just silly.
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: This is what the White House ought to say. They should listen to Rich Galen. I don't agree with the position, but contrast that with some pipsqueak punk in the speaker's office issuing a press release saying that Jack Murtha is for retreat and defeat.
He was not for retreat and defeat when he was being shot at in Vietnam. It's wrong to insult people who take a principle disagreement. They ought to debate this jus the way Rich did. Just say, look, we have a different view. Here's what we think is good and bad about the policy. But this personal attack that they've launched, the president himself at Elmendorf Air Force Base in Alaska and then the vice president last night making a complete fool of himself, and now these other politicians. This is a wrong strategy from them. I'm telling you, they need to deal with this seriously. Jack Murtha speaks for a lot of Americans.
GALEN: The president was talking about something else again. He wasn't talking about what Jack Murtha was talking about today. What the president was talking about a rewriting of history not about whether the intelligence was wrong, I think everybody agrees with that, but whether or not the president knew that it was wrong at the time, which he maintains he doesn't...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Let's listen now. I want Paul to respond. Let's listen to what the vice president said about rewriting history last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY: The president and I cannot prevent certain politicians from losing their memory or their backbone. But we're not going to sit by and let them rewrite history.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Their argument is if they're attacked, if they remain silent, then it's confirmation. They have to slug right back.
BEGALA: But they don't need to do this politics of personal destruction, these personal attacks. I think they're incredibly desperate.
Look at the optics of this. I don't know if they can put this back up, here. But can we take a look at Dick Cheney, just as someone -- I don't, of course, support him or like him. But if I did, I would tell him don't go out there, you know, this fat, corpulent guy in a tuxedo standing up there talking about our soldiers and then attacking Democrats. It is the worst image for the Republicans that they can imagine. I have no idea why they want Dick Cheney, of all people, to talk about what is dishonest and reprehensible.
BLITZER: He's the vice president.
BEGALA: But he's also dishonest and reprehensible. He's the most disliked Republican in America. He's got a favorable rating of 19 percent. We hate Dick Cheney. As a Democrat, I want Dick Cheney on TV in his fat tuxedo every day. It's the worst optic imaginable. Contrast that with Jack Murtha who's tough as a bar of iron,
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He's tough, though. I wouldn't want to have a fistfight with Jack Murtha
BLITZER: Is it smart politics to get Dick Cheney in a tuxedo?
GALEN: I mean, this is something that Paul and I were talking about earlier. I mean, sometimes you need somebody that's going to go out and actually swing like he's swinging at a pinata. Dick Cheney not only is good at it, but he really likes doing that. And I suspect they had to sit on him for a while before he finally convinced them that he wanted to do it.
BLITZER: The ad wars over Samuel Alito, Supreme Court justice nominee, have started. Let's have a little sample.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: In 1990, the U.S. Senate unanimously confirmed Samuel Alito to serve on the Third Circuit Court of Appeals. Today, liberal groups, led by the People for the American Way, oppose Judge Alito's nomination to the Supreme Court. Their agenda is clear. They want to take God out of the "Pledge of Allegiance" and are fighting to redefine traditional marriage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: As a judge, Alito ruled to make it easier for corporations to discriminate. He even voted to approve the strip search of a 10-year-old girl. As a government lawyer, Alito wrote the Constitution does not protect a right to an abortion. The right wing has already taken over the West Wing. Don't let them take over your Supreme Court.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: All right. What do you think of those ads? I'll start with you, Rich.
GALEN: These ads are based solely on the desire for people who have raised all this money to spend all this money and actually get paid. They had all this money raised the first time with Roberts, they didn't get to spend it. They're going to spend it now. There are 100 members of the Senate. They're going to make this decision. My guess is Alito will get 68, 69 votes.
BEGALA: They're both pretty good ads. It's a lot harder, frankly, to make a good positive ad than a good negative ad. So I think you've got to give the right wing group that's trying to support Alito a little credit for making a pretty good positive ad.
But the liberal ad is pretty scary to a whole lot of moderate voters. If this thing comes down to not just abortion -- you notice they had a lot of other issues in there. If it comes down to corporate power, strip searching 10-year-old girls, family medical leave, this thing could -- you know, I think Rich is right. He's more likely than not to win. But this could be a really interesting fight, and a good one. GALEN: As we said about Harriet Miers, this is going to be won or lost in the one-on-ones. And in Harriet Miers' case, it was lost in the one-on-one meetings. In this case, even Dianne Feinstein, although she sort of backed away a little bit after she met with him, felt at least reasonably comfortable that although she disagreed with him, that he would make a pretty good Supreme Court justice.
BEGALA: But even if they lose, Democrats need to fight. They need to show the country they stand for something.
BLITZER: The confirmation hearings start in January. We'll be covering them. Guys, thanks very much.
GALEN: You bet.
BLITZER: Coming up, the president recently quoted John Kerry on the Iraq war. Now Senator Kerry is firing back. He calls the Bush administration incompetent. We'll tell you what else he has to say. I interviewed him earlier today.
And he's popular in New York, but will he play in Peoria? That would be Rudy Giuliani. We'll tell you about a movement to try to persuade the former New York City mayor to run for president.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: The former New York City mayor, Rudy Giuliani, repeatedly has left the door wide open to a possible presidential bid in 2008. But for some of his supporters, that's not good enough, so they're going to new lengths to try to draft Giuliani as a candidate.
Our Mary Snow's joining us from New York now. She has more. Hi, Mary
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Wolf. And Giuliani may be leaving the door wide open, but he's been pretty tight-lipped about his intentions to return to politics. And there's a new push to change that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW (voice-over): They call it a little nudging. Two Chicago men who've never even met former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani have started a movement to draft him for president in 2008. Along with a website, they've filed with the Federal Election Commission in order to raise campaign funds and to encourage Giuliani to seek the Republican nod for the White House.
ALLEN FORE, "DRAFT RUDY GIULIANI FOR PRESIDENT": And help show the mayor that grassroots organization in fact does exist across the country.
SNOW: A spokesman for Giuliani had no comment. The last hint Giuliana dropped about his aspirations came last month when he was quoted as saying he thinks he'll return to politics but didn't elaborate. He's been a darling of the Republican Party with his poll numbers high since being thrust into the national spotlight following 9/11.
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK: I've never seen so many Republicans in New York City.
SNOW: He thrived as an anomaly, a Republican mayor in a Democratic town, showcased at the GOP Convention.
GIULIANI: I finally feel at home.
SNOW: Political analysts say Giuliani may have been comfortable in New York, but his support of abortion and gay rights would put him at odds in places like Iowa and New Hampshire in primary races if he runs.
STUART ROTHENBERG, ROTHENBERG POLITICAL REPORT: His position on cultural issues, so-called moral issues, is way out of sync with most Republican primary and caucus voters. He'd be a real long shot.
SNOW: But political strategist Stu Rothenberg points to an unknown. That is the effect of President Bush's drop in approval ratings and the strong support for Senator Hillary Clinton to seek the Democratic nod for the White House. He says that could prompt Republicans, even conservatives, to give a moderate like Rudy Giuliani a second look.
ROTHENBERG: It'd still be difficult for Giuliani, but to the extent to which the Republicans get desperate about holding the White House, that would certainly be an advantage for him.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: The backers of the Draft Giuliani site say with grassroots movements already in place to draft Senators John McCain and Hillary Rodham Clinton and Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice, it's not too early to start seeking support.
Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Mary, thank you very much. Let's get some more, now, on a possible Rudy Giuliani presidential run.
Our Internet reporter Abbi Tatton is standing by. Abbi?
ABBI TATTON, CNN INTERNET CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, there are lots of draft sites springing up out there on the Web. This is the Draft Rudy Giuliani site, DraftRudyGiuliani.com. On it, you can contribute to this effort. They're also hoping to mobilize people across all 50 states to encourage Giuliani to run.
Now, this is now the first one. The DraftWesleyClark.com movement was big at the beginning of the last election season. That one's been revived to look ahead to 2008. And another site that has been re- launched is VoteHillary.org. This was launched in 2003, but as I said, it's now been re-launched to look ahead.
Now, all these sites are not affiliated with or authorized by these potential candidates, nor do they suggest that they're actually going to run. A spokesman for Senator Hillary Clinton tells us today that the senator is focused on being the best senator she can be for the people of New York right now.
Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Abbi. Thank you very much.
Still to come, bird flu. Has the coverage and the exposure been over-hyped? Jack Cafferty's been going through your email. He's standing by.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's go back to CNN's Zain Verjee at the CNN Center in Atlanta with a closer look at other stories making news. Zain?
VERJEE: Wolf, in Florida, jurors are deciding the fate of a former college professor and three others in a terrorism conspiracy case. Sami Al-Arian is accused of raising money to support the mission of the terrorist group Palestinian Islamic Jihad. The former University of South Florida professor says he's innocent. Jurors in the five-month trial have ended their third day of deliberations and are going to return after the weekend.
And here in Atlanta, a small plane had some trouble with its landing gear while approaching a county airport. Now, it circled for a little while, and it made one unsuccessful attempt to touch down. The plane then went up and circled the airport, retracted its landing gear, and finally made a successful belly landing. Three on board the plane emerged unharmed.
Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Zain, thanks very much.
Let's go to New York. Jack Cafferty's been going through your email. Jack?
CAFFERTY: Hey, Wolf. The media -- that would be us, among others -- is littered with stories about a coming bird flu pandemic that will kill millions. Here's the deal. So far, bird flu kills mostly birds. A grand total of 130 people have been affected in the last few years out of a population of 6.5 billion, and 67 have died.
The question we're asking is, has the bird flu story been over- hyped?
Chris in New York writes: "First it was communism, then terrorism, now bird flu. In politics, fear sells. Be very afraid."
Matthew in Bridge Water, Nova Scotia: "I have bird flu and even I think it's over-hyped."
Susan in Atlanta, Georgia: "Not that this isn't serious, but really, what can we do beyond not playing with infected chicken?" That's probably good advice, just as general rule of living.
Clint in Atlanta, Georgia: "In this day and age of 24 hour news, everything is over-hyped, everything is breaking news, everything is just in -- every missing child, every small plane making an emergency landing, every issue no matter how small or insignificant. You people are wearing me out."
BLITZER: I suspect, Jack, a lot of people think like that.
CAFFERTY: I'm not done yet. Where did I go? There I am.
Tim in Valley Falls, Kansas: "Every expert I've heard talk about it has said it's not a question of if, but of when. How do you over- hype the probable plague of the 21st century? I think the media's done an outstanding job in its coverage of this subject."
BLITZER: What do you think, Jack?
CAFFERTY: I'm not done yet. I was just waiting until I came back on the screen. I've got one more.
Tayen (ph) in Fulton, Missouri: "I wish Jack would have given the statistics an hour earlier. I just shot my canary."
BLITZER: Our viewers have a good sense of humor. All right, Jack. We'll check back with you momentarily.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
