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The Situation Room
Iraq: War of Words; Detainee Dungeon; Interview With Senator John Warner; Two Americans Arrested In Iraq Kickback Scheme; Terrorist Tape Has Chilling Message For U.S.; No Aid For North Korea As Long As It Has Nuclear Programs; Two Die Of Bird Flu In Indonesia
Aired November 17, 2005 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: It's nearly 5:00 p.m. here in Washington, and you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where news and information from around the world arrive at one place at the same time.
Happening now, a war of words echoes around the world. On Capitol Hill, a top Democrat says it's time to bring the troops home now, calling the Iraq conflict flawed policy wrapped in illusion. From South Korea, President Bush answers his critics, calling them irresponsible.
The man who was Bush's biggest critic opens fire once again, saying the president must now level with the American people on Iraq. I'll go one on one with Democratic Senator John Kerry.
With troops overseas, should the criticisms stop at America's shoreline? I'll speak with the Republican chairman of the Armed Services Committee, Senator John Warner.
And it's 1:00 a.m. in Baghdad, where we have exclusive pictures of a detainee dungeon. As the Iraqi government investigates apparent abuse, its interior minister says at least nobody was beheaded. What's going on there?
I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
He's now reemerging as a leading voice in the war of words over Iraq. As the Democratic presidential nominee, Senator John Kerry battled President Bush down to the wire last year. But long before that he backed the president in a vote authorizing the war in Iraq. Has Senator Kerry been kicking himself over that ever since?
Earlier today, we sat down for a one-one-one interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Let me ask you if you agree with what your former running mate, John Edwards, wrote in the "Washington Post" on Sunday.
He wrote this: "I was wrong. It was a mistake to vote for this war in 2002. I take responsibility for that mistake. While we can't change the past, we need to accept responsibility because a key part of restoring America's moral leadership is acknowledging when we've made mistakes or been proven wrong." Do you agree with Senator Edwards on that?
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: I said that before Senator Edwards wrote that. I gave a speech...
BLITZER: You were wrong -- that you were wrong to vote for that?
KERRY: I would not have voted for that resolution given what we know today. We wouldn't have even had a vote given what we know today. There would have been no vote.
The reason that vote took place in the United States Senate and Congress is because they built up the immediacy of the threat. And what many of us felt we were giving the president was the authority to use force as a last resort if, if he had fulfilled his promises -- gone as a last resort, built up a true coalition, done the inspections to the greatest degree possible to contain Saddam Hussein. He didn't do those things.
BLITZER: So you -- you regret voting for that resolution?
KERRY: I think anybody worth their salt ought to see the mistakes and incompetence of this administration. And how could you possibly say you're going to vote -- let this incompetent administration go out and be incompetent again? Of course I wouldn't do that.
But we didn't know that at the time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: And we'll have more of my interview with Senator Kerry later this hour, and the complete interview coming up 7:00 p.m. Eastern here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
The war of words over Iraq reaches a crescendo with a stunning turnabout by a key U.S. congressman. A combat veteran of another war calls for an immediate redeployment of U.S. troops, saying America is at risk.
Half a world away, President Bush blasts his critics as irresponsible, as his supporters here are rallying behind him.
Our White House correspondent is traveling with the president in South Korea.
But let's first go to Capitol Hill. Ed Henry, our congressional correspondent, is standing by. Ed?
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, Democrat John Murtha wants all U.S. troops withdrawn within six months. Republicans immediately saying this is a cut-and-run strategy. But that allegation may be difficult to stick, because John Murtha is a decorated veteran of the Vietnam War. He voted for the Iraq war as well. But just an hour ago, just in the last hour, in THE SITUATION ROOM, right here in THE SITUATION ROOM, he basically said the troops have done their job but the rhetoric of the administration is not meeting the reality on the ground. It's time to bring them home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JOHN MURTHA (D), PENNSYLVANIA: The military commanders, they say one thing. The troops and family say -- the American public is way ahead of us on this. I mean, they want our troops out of there. Eighty percent of the Iraqi people want us out of there. Forty-five percent say it's justified to attack America.
Turn it over to the Iraqis. You're not going to win this militarily. You're only going to win it politically.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Now, Murtha also took direct aim today at Vice President Cheney, noting his five deferments during the Vietnam War, and also in THE SITUATION ROOM, questioned Speaker Dennis Hastert's own lack of military service. That came after a broadside from Hastert, who put out a tough statement today saying that Murtha's plan is an example of Democrats waving the "white flag of surrender to the terrorists of the world."
Democrats, meanwhile, still ratcheting up their rhetoric. We heard Harry Reid with some tough words on the Senate floor. But he is not signing on to this resolution by Murtha/
Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Ed. Thank you very much.
Let's go to Korea right now, South Korea, specifically. Our White House Correspondent Dana Bash is standing by with reaction from there. Dana?
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, the sun is just coming up here in South Korea, and this is a country that actually has the third largest contingent of troops in Iraq. So the fact that this war of words is escalating back in Washington is once again going to likely put the president in somewhat of an uncomfortable position here in South Korea.
But it is no surprise that a senior official does say the president respectfully disagrees with Congressman Murtha and that troops should come home immediately, or at least within six months.
Bush officials certainly understand, Wolf, that Congressman Murtha is no left-winger, if you will. He is an influential moderate, even hawkish, a Democrat. But they are taking solace in the fact that at least for now it does not look like other moderate Democrats are joining him in his call to bring troops home right away.
Now, the White House does say that they welcome what one official called a legitimate policy debate about moving forward, but here in South Korea, the president is still engaging in the White House hit- back strategy about the Democrats' attack on him by manipulating pre- war intelligence. Let's listen to what the president said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When Democrats say that I deliberately misled the Congress and the people, that's irresponsible. They looked at the same intelligence I did, and they voted -- many of them voted to support the decision I made.
It's irresponsible to use politics. Now, this is serious business, winning this war. But it's irresponsible to do what they've done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now, as Ed Henry just reported, Congressman Murtha did have some tough words for the president, and especially the vice president, as having deferments and never been there, and send people to war. To that, a spokeswoman for the vice president said simply, "The president and vice president have the most respect and support for our brave men and women serving overseas".
Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Dana. Thank you very much. Dana Bash reporting. She's traveling with the president in South Korea.
Let's go up to New York, once again. Jack Cafferty standing by with another question for this hour. It's getting lively here in Washington, Jack. And the ripples are going all the way over to South Korea.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Well, the rhetoric just gets more and more heated. And that congressman, the retired Marine colonel, I think, you know, he threw a little gasoline on the fire today, didn't he?
BLITZER: Yes, he was on fire, Jack, Murtha.
CAFFERTY: All right. Here's -- here's what we're going to monkey around with for the next hour.
More and more Americans think the U.S. should butt out. A new poll by the Pew Research Center shows that 42 percent of us think that the United States should mind its own business internationally and let other countries get along the best they can on their own.
Compare that to a poll taken before the Iraq war, where only 30 percent of Americans felt that way. The poll shows that the Iraq war has had a huge impact on the way Americans see their country's role in the world. These isolationist views are very similar to the way the public felt after Vietnam and after the Cold War.
So here's the question. When it comes to international affairs, should the U.S. just mind its own business? CaffertyFile@CNN.com. We'll read some of your answers a bit later. BLITZER: Thanks, Jack. Jack Cafferty in New York.
Up ahead here in THE SITUATION ROOM, Senator John Kerry says the Bush administration is trying to scare the country to maintaining support for the war, calling Vice President Dick Cheney's recent comments -- and I'm quoting now -- "disgraceful fear tactic."
Coming up, more of my interview with John Kerry. And we have some video exclusive to CNN in Iraq, the so-called detainee dungeon, where a number of detainees seemingly tortured were found. They're images you will see only here on CNN.
And there's terror in Australia. Officials are studying a chilling videotape that threatens Australia's prime minister and makes other threats of terror as well. We'll tell you all about it here on THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: U.S. troops found them locked in a bunker, dozens of detainees, some of whom showed signs of torture. They were held by Iraqi security forces, and Iraq's government is now investigating.
We have exclusive pictures from outside the detainee dungeon.
Our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson is standing by live in Baghdad with more. Nic?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, today was the first day the interior minister came out to defend what had been happening inside that bunker system. One of the things he did was invite journalists to go down there and take a look around the facility.
That's what we did. We got to the gate. We were able to see the entrance to the complex where these people were detained, where the tortures were going on. But we couldn't get in because the guards wouldn't let us in. That was despite the invitation of the interior minister.
He denied some of the numbers, rebutted the allegations that Sunnis were the target for the interrogations and torturing, and indeed said that his office respected human rights.
Wolf.
BLITZER: It's a -- it's a pretty shocking story all around. But what do the average people on the streets of Baghdad, what are they saying about all of this?
ROBERTSON: The rumors have been rife. One of the things about this detention facility, it was a detention facility under Saddam Hussein's regime. People were tortured there then. The tortures -- torturing has started up again in the last couple of months. People in the city knew about it. A lot of people are very pleased to see the U.S. effectively take a proactive stance and go in and expose the situation. Nobody else was prepared to do it.
But it is a divisive issue. People see it as a Sunni-Shia issue, it's a sectarian issue, it comes up just before the elections. So it's one of those things that's dividing people here.
Wolf.
BLITZER: Finally, Nic, what about the debate that's happening right now here in Washington over a troop pullout?
John Murtha, the congressman, today saying, get them out, all U.S. troops out over the next six months. Is that resonating in Iraq? Are people hearing about this very intense war of words that's going on in the U.S. Capitol?
ROBERTSON: Wolf, I think they're going to begin to hear about it very soon. It's going to really reshape where -- what politicians think about the situation if something like that were to happen. Or just -- just for people here, politicians to know that it could -- will really reshape the dynamic behind the scenes here.
There's a lot of focusing on issues that happens politically by the -- by the U.S. here in Iraq. Politicians know that perhaps all that could go away. Everything they (ph) fight for. The insurgents, as well, it would change the dynamic for them. It will certainly reshape a lot of people's views here on what could and will happen.
Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Nic. Thanks very much.
No one is going to be watching the story more closely than the people in Iraq, including U.S. and other coalition forces.
Let's go to Atlanta, the CNN Center. Zain Verjee standing by with a closer look at other important stories making news. Zain?
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, police in Iowa are searching for an escaped prison inmate. Robert Joseph Legendre was serving a life sentence for kidnapping and attempted murder. He broke out of a maximum security facility in Fort Madison, Iowa, on Monday, along with convicted murderer Martin Shane Moon. He was captured this morning after a brief car and foot case.
The verdict is in for Joseph P. Smith as a Sarasota, Florida, jury says he's guilty of the kidnapping, sexual assault and murder of 11- year-old Carlie Brucia last February. Videotape of the abduction captured by a security camera was seen across the country. Smith could get the death penalty when he's sentenced this month.
And Wolf, a really sad postscript of those bombings at three Jordanian hotels last week, one of which was hosting a wedding party -- the mother of the bride has died from injuries she suffered in the attack. Now, that brings the death toll to 59 victims. The bride's father was also killed, along with the father of the groom.
Wolf.
BLITZER: Very sad. Zain, I know you're looking into this. What's the state of security around those hotels in Amman, Jordan, right now a week after the terrorist attack?
VERJEE: They've definitely improved. And residents say, look, we don't like it, but we have to do it. You've got metal detectors that are being placed in shopping center, hotels and restaurants, as well. There are random body searches going on, as well as residents being told, again, randomly, in various locations, look, show us your I.D. They say that this is the new Jordan
BLITZER: Zain, thank you very much. We'll get back with you soon.
Coming up here in THE SITUATION ROOM, the war of words over the war in Iraq. I'll speak live with the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, John Warner. He's here in THE SITUATION ROOM standing by.
And Senator John Kerry, we'll have more of my interview with the former Democratic presidential nominee. That's coming up as well.
Plus, some chilling scenes of life inside North Korea. The world's most secretive society is captured by a hidden camera. The video smuggled out of the country. You'll want to see this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: More now with my interview with Senator John Kerry. He's plunged into that war of words over the conflict in Iraq. Vice President Dick Cheney is taking the lead in charging some Democrats and other critics. Now Senator Kerry is firing right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Let me read to you what the vice president said last night.
"What we're hearing now is some politicians contradicting their own statements and making a play for political advantage in the middle of a war. The saddest part is that our people in uniform have been subjected to these cynical and pernicious falsehoods day in and day out."
The theme that's coming from the vice president, the president, the secretary of Defense, the president's national security adviser, is that your criticism -- not just yours, but other Democrats -- your criticism is, A, undermining the troops, endangering the troops, and B, emboldening or encouraging the insurgents.
KERRY: And that is exactly the kind of disgraceful fear tactic, scare tactic exploitation that this administration has continually delved into in pursuit of this war. They did it all through the election last year, where they tried to scare America, and did in many cases, and they're still doing it. And I'm not going to listen to this vice president of the United States tell me that when they send troops without armor, when they send troops in inadequate numbers, when they send troops without the support structure that they need to be able to conduct the missions they're conducting, when they make the misjudgment that those troops are going to be welcomed as liberators with flowers strewn at their feet at parades, when they make the misjudgment not even to block and secure ammo dumps, the ammo, which is now being used against our troops, when they make misjudgment about disbanding the military and civilian structure of Iraq, and they turn around and say to us, who all the time were saying don't do these things, that we're somehow putting the troops in jeopardy, I'm going to stand up and fight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: And we'll have more on my interview with Senator Kerry when we return in THE SITUATION ROOM later tonight, 7:00 p.m. Eastern.
Let's bring in a different perspective right now -- the Republican chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, John Warner, who is joining us in THE SITUATION ROOM.
It's getting very, very ugly, this war of words. You've been around this town for a long time. An hour ago, John Murtha, the Democratic congressman who is very influential on defense matters, as you know, he's lashing out at the speaker, at the vice president.
Listen -- listen to what he said, Senator.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURTHA: The Iraqis want us out of here, the American public wants us out, the troops are the targets, and you can't win a military victory. Even the military -- General Casey said that we've become occupiers. And General Abizaid said one of the elements of success is to get our troops out of -- out of Iraq.
So it's just a matter of time. It's a matter how you do it. I believe sooner rather than later.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: What do you think? I mean, he wants them all out within six months.
WARNER: OK. Let me ask you -- two facts occurred this week. One, the Senate passed 98-0 the defense authorization bill which I was privileged to be the chairman. Ninety-eight -- not a dissenting vote, showing the strongest support for our troops.
In that was an amendment that I put up with Senator Frist. Seventy-nine colleagues joined in a bipartisan, forward-looking message basically to the Iraqi people that we have fought, we have lost our brave men and women, we are wounded, we spent a lot of money, we want to support you, particularly in the next 120, 180 days, while your new government begins to stand up. And we expect you, Iraqis, to maintain a strong, viable government, and gain your full sovereignty, such that we can bring to an end this insurgency.
BLITZER: What's wrong, in effect, with -- I don't know if Congressman Murtha would agree with this characterization of declaring victory and getting out...
WARNER: No, that was -- I was secretary of the Navy.
BLITZER: That was during the Vietnam War.
WARNER: I was secretary of the Navy. We all remember that. That's not going to be done. There's a great distinction between the war in Vietnam.
I went back, incidentally, and checked the votes of the various bills of authorization. There was always a cadre that said no. Not one no this week, Wolf. I urge all to lower the rhetoric.
BLITZER: Because the argument is that the Iraqis themselves won't have the incentive to step up to the plate and fight for themselves as long as Uncle Sam's going to do it for them.
WARNER: That's correct. The purpose of our amendment now in the bill is to send a message that you've got to really take a very firm hold.
I was just over there a couple weeks ago with Senator Stevens. We met with the secretary of their defense. We met with their minister of homeland defense. Each of them complaining how they could not get their government organizations to move forward in the support that they wished.
A new government is coming in on the 15th of December. And it's forward looking.
BLITZER: That's when the election -- the parliamentary elections.
WARNER: The American people are anxious to see, lower the rhetoric, let's get on with fulfilling the mission we've set forth so the Iraqis can get their democracy.
BLITZER: In our most recent CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll, we asked whether troops should withdraw immediately or within the next 12 months. You add up the numbers, 52 percent, a majority, want these troops out of there either immediately or within the next 12 months.
WARNER: Well, then, you know, Wolf, some of us have to stand tall and try and say to the people, have confidence, have trust in us, and we will do our very best to let this nation regain a measure of democracy which they've not had in decades.
BLITZER: But given the blunders as enunciated -- we just heard in that clip from Senator Kerry -- the blunders going into the war, the intelligence failures, which as you know were dead wrong in terms of the weapons of mass destruction.
WARNER: Yes. BLITZER: The American public seems to be losing confidence in this administration's conduct of the war.
WARNER: Understandably. It's very difficult for the American public to comprehend this war. It's unlike any that we've ever been involved in.
There is no state. That is, no nation sponsoring it. It's a diverse group of terrorists determined to undermine the civilized nations, the nations that love and cherish freedom, all the way from Spain to Indonesia. And Iraq is a focal point.
BLITZER: Here is this other poll number. The situation in Iraq, was it worth going to war over? And these numbers are dramatic. Only 38 percent of the American public now say yes. Sixty percent say no.
WARNER: I say to that group, bear with us. I'm confident in the next six months this nation can show its ability...
BLITZER: You mean Iraq?
WARNER: Iraq. That is correct.
We do not want to cut and run. That's why the Senate defeated that effort just days ago to put in a passage, cut and run. We cannot say to the families who've lost their loved ones, the tens of thousands that are wounded here, it was in vein. And that's why I lament greatly my friend -- and he is a friend -- John Murtha today. I'm baffled by what he did.
BLITZER: He's very, very passionate. And he feels very strongly about this. It certainly came through in the interview.
WARNER: That's right.
BLITZER: And he says that the American public is right now ahead of the Congress. And that's why he wanted to step up and make what he called this statement of conscience.
WARNER: Oh, Wolf, you and I have seen a lot of situations. I served briefly at the end of World War II. I served in Korea with the Marines for five years. I was secretary -- undersecretary of the Navy in Vietnam.
This is the time to stand fast, to express our trust in the integrity of our president to lead us through this situation. All the world is looking at us. If we were to cut and run now, it would be a signal to the terrorists worldwide we don't have the resolve to finish this out and allow Iraq to establish its sovereign nation.
BLITZER: Listen to what the Senate Democratic leader, Harry Reid, the minority leader, said on the Senate floor last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MINORITY LEADER: A bipartisan majority of this body, the United States Senate, gave the administration a vote of no confidence for its Iraq policy. The United States Senate said the era of their no plan, no end approach is over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: He's got a very different interpretation of that vote than you do.
WARNER: Yes, but you're looking at the author. I took the Democrat resolution, I worked it with our leadership, I worked it with the National Security Council, and I felt it was better that we try and have a bipartisan, than 55 Republicans voting for another resolution that I had in my pocket and 45 for theirs.
Isn't it time we showed the American public we have some common ground? It was designed as a message to show the Iraqi people, we have stood by you, but now you've got to get your act together and succeed.
BLITZER: One final question. Those critics who are raising questions about the deployment, like John Murtha or John Kerry, are they, as some Republicans are charging, encouraging the terrorists, the insurgents and undermining the U.S. military?
WARNER: Well, let me give you an example. Senator Stevens and I were...
BLITZER: Ted Stevens of Alaska.
WARNER: Ted Stevens, the chairman of the Appropriations Committee. He talked about his many trips to Vietnam, and I talked about my trips to Vietnam when I was secretary of the Navy. You know, those military people would say to us, we want out of here, we're not making any, any gains.
In all of my trips, again, with Stevens just six weeks ago, the military are steadfast. They feel confident in their mission. They're proud of what they're doing. Not one military person has come up to me in six visits to Iraq to say we're not making a difference and it's time to go home.
BLITZER: Some might argue they're afraid to say that to you.
WARNER: No, no. No, no, no. Look, having been a bit of a trooper myself in a very modest way, I know the men and women of the military. I have had the privilege to have been associated with them for over 50 years since World War II. And I'm telling you we've never had a finer fighting force and more dedicated fighting force.
And this rhetoric is not undermining their morale. But they're puzzled as to why it's taking place, because they see on the ground progress being made by the Iraqi government, by the reconstruction and by the military action. They're not bogged down, and they don't want any cut-and-running.
BLITZER: Senator Warner, the chairman of the Armed Services Committee... WARNER: Thank you.
BLITZER: ... thanks for joining us.
And, coming up, an alleged kickback scheme in Iraq ensnares two Americans. They're accused of bribery and fraud. We are standing by for details.
Also ahead, chilling threats on a revealing tape. Officials found and are now studying messages believed to be from a man with ties to al Qaeda. We have those details.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Two Americans, including a former official with the Coalition Provisional Authority, are accused of bribery and fraud in connection with an alleged kickback scheme in Iraq.
CNN's Jeanne Meserve of our America bureau is standing by with details. Jeanne?
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, charged today in the bribery and fraud scheme, a former Coalition Provisional Authority contract employee by the name of Robert Stein.
And, just yesterday, American businessman Philip Bloom appeared in court, charged with conspiring to commit money laundering and wire fraud in a still-unfolding investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE (voice-over): The rebuilding of Iraq, a massive job involving tens of billions of dollars in contracts.
To get his share, court documents allege American businessman Philip Bloom paid at least $360,000 in kickbacks, bribes and gratuities, including payments for jewels, cars and real estate -- the recipients, according to affidavits, Coalition Provisional Authority official Robert Stein, Stein's wife and others, including a Defense Department employee.
The affidavits allege there were no legitimate competing bids for any of the contracts awarded to Bloom's companies, that the process was rigged. Phony high bids were placed, so the low-bid contracts would go to Bloom's companies -- the result, more than $13 million worth of business, including contracts to renovate the Karbala Public Library and build the police academy in Hillah.
The affidavit alleges some of the work was never done.
GINGER CRUZ, DEPUTY INSPECTOR GENERAL: When you're talking about a cash economy, you're talking about the chaos and the insurgency, there were opportunities for bad people to do bad things.
MESERVE: One member of Congress believes there has been massive waste, fraud and abuse of contracts.
SEN. BYRON DORGAN (D), NORTH DAKOTA: When you have contractors that get billions of dollars and the evidence is substantial that we're being cheated by those contractors, somebody needs to stand up and do something about it. And the fact is, nobody is doing very much at all. And the taxpayers should be furious about it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE: Efforts to reach attorneys for Stein and Bloom were unsuccessful.
And a footnote in the affidavit says that Robert Stein, the CPA official, was convicted of credit card fraud in 1996 and ordered to pay a bank restitution of $45,000. Tonight, some officials are asking why an individual with that kind of record was hired to administer contracts in Iraq.
Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Jeanne, thanks very much -- Jeanne Meserve reporting.
A tape found in the lair of terrorists with a deadly track record, a masked man with a chilling message, a warning directed at America and its friends -- U.S. authorities are urgently trying to fit all these pieces together.
Let's bring in CNN's Brian Todd. He's over at the Pentagon. He's got some more specifics. Brian?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the effort to fit those pieces together has made its way here to the Pentagon -- officials being careful not to give us too much detail yet. But they assure us they're paying careful attention
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (voice-over): U.S. military intelligence officials are taking a close look at this tape, a man believed to be a feared leader of the al Qaeda-linked Asian terrorist group Jemaah Islamiyah pointing at the camera, aiming his threats at the U.S. and its allies.
NOORDIN MOHAMAD TOP, JEMAAH ISLAMIYAH (through translator): As long as you shall maintain troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and still intimidate Muslims, then you will experience our intimidation and terror. Remember that.
TODD: Indonesian authorities identify him as Noordin Mohamad Top, believed to be mastermind of the bombings in Bali last month and in 2002, as well as other attacks targeting Westerners that have left nearly 250 dead.
Indonesian police say the tape was recovered recently from one of Noordin Top hideouts. And it raises the antenna of U.S. intelligence officials for its timing, as well as its content. The airing of the tape comes as Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is in Australia for key meetings on Iraq with his counterpart there.
On the tape, Noordin Top threatens to target Australia's prime minister and foreign minister. For them, his rhetoric is all too familiar.
ALEXANDER DOWNER, AUSTRALIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Noordin Top is now the most wanted terrorist in Southeast Asia. And no democratic country like Australia should be intimidated by a fanatic like Noordin Top.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: Terrorism experts tell us that Jemaah Islamiyah is -- has been weakened recently by U.S. and Indonesian counterterror operations, but they say it remains a potential -- a potent, rather -- security threat to Southeast Asia, even though, as one expert says, it's still a legal organization in Indonesia and people are free to join.
Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Brian, thank you very much -- Brian Todd reporting.
Still to come, it may be the only footage of its kind ever to get out of North Korea, video smuggled out of the country that depicts a brutal world of repression under Kim Jong Il's government. We will tell you about this CNN special.
And, in the rush to protect against bird flu, what are some businesses doing right now? We will tell you how fears of a possible pandemic are forcing small businesses to act.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Our good friend Lou Dobbs is getting ready for his show. That starts right at the top of the hour, less than 20 minutes from now. Lou, what are you working on?
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Wolf. At 6:00 p.m. Eastern on CNN, we will be reporting on the rising frustration in Congress over the conduct of the war in Iraq -- one prominent congressman calling for an immediate withdrawal of our troops, claiming the future of this country is at risk. We will sort it all out.
And you won't believe this. Communist China, a one-party dictatorship, of course, now claims it's a democracy. Why would it make such an outrageous claim? Why would the Bush administration even listen? We will have that special report.
And, then, one airline, one of the biggest in this country, is about to take thousands of jobs away from American citizens.
And Hollywood just can't get it right about our border security and illegal alien crisis -- how one network's hit show has sparked a storm of protests. We will have all of that.
And I will be joined by Robert Bennett. We will be talking about the CIA-White House leak case, Robert Woodward, and, of course, his apology to the "New York Post" (sic).
Please join us. Now back to you, Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. I think his apology to "The Washington Post," as opposed to "The New York Post," Lou. But it's a "Post," "New York Post," "Washington Post."
President Bush is in South Korea for the annual economic APEC summit. But the president is also lobbying Asian leaders for a united front against North Korea's nuclear weapons program.
This Saturday, 8:00 p.m. Eastern, CNN will present a dramatic documentary with footage shot inside North Korea. It may be the only footage of its kind ever to get out of the country. "Undercover in the Secret State" depicts a brutal life of repression, poverty and even public executions carried out by the North Korean government. Here is a preview.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANK SESNO, CNN CONTRIBUTING CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): North Korea, March 2005 -- a crowd has been ordered to gather in an open field. A party official makes an announcement.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING KOREAN).
SESNO: Children have been brought to watch. The sentence is about to be passed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): All the workers who came here today are inhabitants of the nearby village, are about to learn the punishment for these crimes.
SESNO: Three men are about to die.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON (through translator): How stupid these criminals are. Kim Jong Il is great in comparison to these worthless criminals.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Carry out the death sentence immediately!
SESNO: These people have committed the crime most damaging to North Korea's leader, Kim Jong Il. They made contact with the outside world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): They have been involved in the illegal (SPEAKING KOREAN) aiding people to defect the country. They trafficked women across the border to China. We have to protect North Korea from the outside influence and build up a strong guard to keep those influences out.
SESNO: Three policemen step forward and raise their rifles. On the left, a prisoner is tied to a pole.
This video was passed from person to person along a secret underground network, powerful evidence of public executions under the regime of Kim Jong Il.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Once again, "Undercover in the Secret State" airs this Saturday, 8:00 p.m., Eastern, only here on CNN. You will want to see this dramatic documentary.
Meanwhile, President Bush is making clear his position, no aid for North Korea until that country gives up its nuclear programs.
We will talk about that with our world affairs analyst, the former Defense Secretary William Cohen. He's the chairman and CEO of the Cohen Group here in Washington.
That was powerful, powerful. I don't know if you have seen this documentary, but you have -- it's an awful regime in North Korea. How do you deal with a country like this, that has such a repressive secret state?
WILLIAM COHEN, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, there are two approaches, obviously.
President Bush is trying to persuade all of the Asian countries, Russia, including China, as well as South Korea, to stand behind the six-party talks and to have a unified position. Japan is playing a key role. And I just returned from Japan to meet with their -- some of their officials.
But the South Korean president has a somewhat different approach. And he's following on the heels of his predecessor, namely a so-called sunshine approach, willing to invest in resources and provide economic benefit to the north to try to force them to open up, believing that more outside contact will, in fact, moderate, somewhat, this brutal regime -- so, two approaches -- President Bush trying to cut off supplies, crack down on money going into North Korea, trying to bring about, some of them, at least, a collapse of the regime from within.
BLITZER: Here is how the president phrased his position earlier today. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: The issue really is the light water reactor. Our position is, is that we will consider the light water reactor at the appropriate time. The appropriate time is after they have verifiably given up their nuclear weapons and/or programs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: And the North Koreans say they -- they want that reactor first. COHEN: Right. This is the same dilemma they have had now for some time, condition, precedent, condition, subsequent -- lawyers' language, whether you give them the aid in advance or you wait until they have actually come forth with allowing inspections.
I mean, assuming they agree, it's still a very tough issue, because the North Koreans, as repressive as they are, they are also very secretive. They have perhaps hundreds, if not more, underground tunnels. How they are going to be inspected is going to be very difficult to achieve. Will they agree to intrusive international inspections, number one? Will they agree to it?
Number two, can these inspections be effective? So, we have a long way to go in order to persuade the North Koreans that they must do this and open up their society. And, just looking at that -- that film shows me they're not very anxious to open up that society.
BLITZER: And -- we are almost out of time -- but, early in the Clinton administration, back in '93, '94, a deal was made with North Korea that they quickly, the North Koreans, cheated on and deceived and -- and simply ignored, until it was exposed much, much later.
Critics say you can never deal with Kim Jong Il, with this kind of repressive society, so why waste your time?
COHEN: Well, because they have a formidable military about 40 miles north of the downtown Seoul, because pushing them to an extreme at this point might precipitate a conflict, with hundreds of thousands of people being killed in the process.
So, it's a question of trying to use diplomacy, as much as we can. A military option is not a great option, not one that is being actively considered -- if necessary, if it becomes necessary, yes -- but diplomacy, as much as we can. And, then, we will have to wait and see what the options are after that.
BLITZER: Welcome back from Asia, Secretary Cohen.
COHEN: It's good to be here.
BLITZER: Good to have you back in Washington. Thanks very much.
Up next, when it comes to international affairs, should the U.S. just mind its own business and stay out of the rest of the word? It's our question of the hour. Jack Cafferty has been going through your email.
Plus, how businesses are bracing for bird flu. We will show you the possible impact of a global pandemic.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: The World Health Organization is confirming two more human deaths from bird flu in Indonesia. Officials say the victims were a 16-year-old girl and a 20-year-old woman who both lived in the capital of Jakarta. Those cases make a total of 11 confirmed so far in Indonesia, seven of which were fatal.
Governments around the world are preparing for a possible pandemic. So are many big businesses. But what can small businesses do to brace for a possible bird flu pandemic?
Let's go to CNN's Ali Velshi. He's joining us now live in New York with some answers. Ali?
ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, typically, small businesses don't have the resources to -- to do what big businesses can do.
Big businesses -- and I'm going to be telling you about this in a couple of hours -- can hire consultants and make big plans and buy stockpiles of whatever it is they can buy. What can small businesses do?
Well, here are some tips that came off the -- the Trust for America's Health, although they're commonly shared when people talk about what small businesses can do. A lot of businesses made plans around 9/11. Check that whatever contingency plans you have made are applicable to something like bird flu. It's not the same kind of plan. You don't need emergency escape routes, the same as you might have with -- with -- with 9/11.
Ensure that your operations, what you do for a living, can last for a couple of weeks.
Make sure you have enough supplies and -- and the things you need to do business.
Plan for certain government service interruptions. That can happen. If things like a pandemic break out, everybody is going to be short-staffed. So, understand that the things you're used to getting done might not get done.
Number four, identify your essential staff and functions. The Trust for America's Health and others say plan for up to a 30 percent reduction in staff, as people either get sick or are fearful of getting sick.
Number five -- and this is a remarkably big one -- ensure hand and respiratory hygiene. We happen to know that gloves and masks are selling very well, so is hand sanitizer. Find alternatives to the services that you use. The other companies that may be short-staffed, consider working at home for your staff. Expand your online businesses. Tell your staff what you're doing.
And, number 10, make sure your sick and medical leave policies are up to date, so that you are not encouraging people who get sick to come to work and make everyone else sick.
Wolf, back to you.
BLITZER: Good advice, Ali. Thanks very much -- Ali Velshi reporting.
Up next here in THE SITUATION ROOM, Jack Cafferty and his question for this hour. Are we turning isolationist over Iraq? When it comes to international affairs, should the U.S. just mind its own business? Jack Cafferty will be back.
You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Check this out. Look who is helping out hurricane victims before the holidays -- the boxing promoter Don King in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, giving away turkeys to people who survived Katrina and Rita, amid the hardship, something else for them to be thankful for next week -- Thanksgiving coming up.
For more on the ways to help the victims of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, let's go to our Internet reporter, Jacki Schechner. Jacki?
JACKI SCHECHNER, CNN INTERNET CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, in the wake of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, we saw a lot of people go online for help. We also saw a lot of people go online to give help. And that continues now heading into the holiday season. For example, here is a collective of people who are heading down to New Orleans to help rebuild from the inside out during Thanksgiving week.
You can go online. They're expecting 300 volunteers to head out -- head down there to help the city on the ground level. You can see an online community like CraigsList, where you can do everything from buy a couch to get a date, turning into a volunteer network -- people like this woman in Dallas, who is looking for Thanksgiving donations to cook a meal for 125 evacuees in her area.
Two women who met on CraigsList started this blog a while back, a direct relief blog. And, essentially, what they're doing is trying to get people, now individuals, as the shelters close, to turn around and get them exactly what they need.
Wolf.
BLITZER: All right.
SCHECHNER: So, I just also want to make note real quick, it's the Internet. Be careful. Be sure you check everything out before you give, especially money.
BLITZER: Good advice. Thanks, Jacki.
Let's go up to Jack Cafferty in New York. He's got more on the "Cafferty File". Jack?
CAFFERTY: That Don King is a great guy, isn't he, using money he stole from those fighters he managed over the years to buy those turkeys for those hurricane victims?
(LAUGHTER) CAFFERTY: Real humanitarian, that guy.
(LAUGHTER)
CAFFERTY: A new poll by the Pew Research Center shows 42 percent of Americans think the U.S. should mind its own business internationally and let other countries get along the best they can on their own.
Compare that to a poll taken before the war in Iraq. Only 30 percent of us felt that way. So, the question is, when it comes to international affairs, should the U.S. just mind its own business?
Billy in Gardner, Kansas: "We need to mind our own business. If not, you could see current baby boomers in bread lines similar to those during Hoover's term. Get out of Iraq and take care of Americans for a change."
Dave in California: "Of course we should mind our own business. With the exception of World War II, which was a different ball game entirely, how many times can you count where American military intervention overseas has done more good than harm?"
Roger in Texas writes: "The U.S. needs to spend money on large fences. Surround those little countries with fences and let them knock themselves out with religious stuff, oil stuff, idealism stuff, whatever. My thought is, we should make things better on our own turf. Believe it or not, we have got problems.'
Jun in New Jersey: "Absolutely. First of all, our superpower days are over. We can't even evacuate, feed and protect our own citizens before a hurricane, and we are still policing the world? Get over ourselves and stop butting in. The U.S. is like a loose woman, gets in bed with everyone and lives to regret it."
And, finally, Craig in Nathrop, Colorado: "Why not simply ask, should the world's superpower stick its head in the sand like an ostrich? No. America has to keep its role internationally, but that does not mean we should become the world policeman. There is a realistic, beneficial role for America between those two extremes" -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Jack, see you in an hour.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: We will be back in THE SITUATION ROOM one hour from now. My full interview with Senator John Kerry, that's coming up, 7:00 p.m. Eastern.
Until then, I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
LOU DOBBS TONIGHT starts right now. Lou standing by in New York. Lou?
DOBBS: Thank you, Wolf. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
