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The Situation Room
Is Mount St. Helens Ready to Erupt?; Padilla Indicted
Aired November 22, 2005 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: And you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time. Standing by, CNN reporters across the United States and around the world to bring you the day's top stories.
Happening now, justice and the war on terror. One U.S. citizen convicted of plotting with al Qaeda to kill President Bush. Another indicted, accused of joining a terror group committed to quote, "murder, maim and kidnap."
Also this hour, a verdict from the Vatican. Sexually active gays are unwelcome as priests. But what if they're not active? Between the lines of those long-awaited guidelines, we'll have details.
And a movie star-turned-governor under pressure right now. That's because a convicted murder-turned-peacemaker is facing execution. Will Arnold Schwarzenegger spare the life of Tookie Williams, with nudging from Hollywood?
You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
We'll get to all of that, but up first this hour, there's dust rising from a simmering volcano. Take a look at this, these are live pictures from Mount St. Helens in Washington state. Experts say falling rock kicked up the dust over the volcano's peak, and since it's a sunny day, people can see the white plume for miles. Any kind of activity over Mount St. Helens tends to make people jittery, after its deadly eruption 25 years ago. After a long, quiet spell, the volcano rumbled back to life last year, and scientists say an eruption is possible at any time.
Carolyn Driedger is with the United States Geological Survey. The Cascades Volcano Observatory in Vancouver, Washington. She's joining us now, live, on the phone. Carolyn, what does this mean?
CAROLYN DRIEDGER, U.S. GEOLOGICAL SURVEY: Well, good afternoon. We have a sunny day here at Vancouver, Washington. And so we can see Mount St. Helens very well. You need to understand that the crater inside Mount St. Helens is just a jumble of old dome pieces, pieces of broken dome rock.
And so that we have quite a bit of rock fall occurring. And it looks like a little bit of that hot rock inside the dome was exposed to the cool, moist air. And with condensation, a small plume was generated.
BLITZER: How unusual is this?
DRIEDGER: This is actually very common, but it's very unusual for us to have a week of nice weather, in which we can see what's going on at Mount St. Helens.
BLITZER: So, should people be worried, overly worried, or should they just calm down in the vicinity?
DRIEDGER: People need to recognize that as the winter months approach, we're going to have many more of these types of events, where we have a small plume forming, maybe 1,000 feet above the crater rim. It probably happens much more often than we're aware of, because many times, there are clouds surrounding the mountain and the plume merges with those clouds.
BLITZER: How likely or unlikely is another deadly eruption?
DRIEDGER: Well, that's a good question. Mount St. Helens has had many personalities in its time. Right now, in fact, since October of 2004, we have had an ongoing eruption of Mount St. Helens.
And we actually have lava extruded from the volcano at a rate of about three cubic yards-per-second. King of like toothpaste squeezing out of a tube.
Right now, we expect that type of eruption will continue. But it is possible that that mode of eruption will change to something more explosive, and we're watching it very carefully.
BLITZER: Which raises this question, what are you looking for when you're studying this as a scientist, as an expert?
DRIEDGER: We look for signs of rising magma, such as more gases than usual coming out of the volcano, or additional earthquake activity, or deformation of the mountain, generally around the mountain.
And we use different instruments for that. We make regular measurements on all of those variables. Right now we're not seeing anything that preceded this little event, this little rock fall event. But the eruption that began last year does continue in a fairly gentle manner.
BLITZER: All right, let's hope it stays like that. Carolyn Driedger, thanks very much for joining us.
Moving on to other news we're following, they are American citizens accused by their government of plotting the most heinous kinds of crimes, a terror attack and the assassination of the president of the United States.
But, their separate cases are much more complex than that. Let's bring in our justice correspondent, Kelli Arena, she's joining us with details. Kelli?
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, I'm going to start with Jose Padilla. Now he was charged today with conspiring to murder, kidnap, and maim people in a foreign country, and with providing material support to terrorists. Now that is a big deal, because Padilla is a U.S. citizen, who has been in military custody for more than three years as an enemy combatant.
All along, his lawyers were pushing for him to either be released or charged. That finally happened today. But the indictment does not match what we've heard government officials say about him. Namely, that he plotted to bomb apartment buildings in the United States.
And that he planned to build and detonate a dirty bomb. Now, officials say that's because most of that information came while he was being interrogated without a lawyer and can't be introduced in a criminal case.
Now, the second big story today, Ahmed Abu Ali, he is a 24-year- old Arab-American who was convicted today of joining al Qaeda and plotting to assassinate President Bush. His lawyer promises to appeal that conviction. It could mean life in prison for Abu Ali. He was taken into custody in Saudi Arabia, where he was studying, Wolf, and he confessed to Saudi officials. It was that confession that led to this conviction.
BLITZER: Kelli, thanks very much. Kelli Arena reporting for us on these two cases, separate but very, very important.
There was also an alarming incident today in Tikrit in Iraq, that would be Saddam Hussein's hometown. A mortar attack that came dangerously close to two of the top American officials in Iraq.
Let's bring in our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson. He's standing by in Baghdad with details. Nic?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, for those top officials, U.S. ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad and the head of the U.S. and coalition forces here, General George Casey, they were attending a hand-over ceremony of forward operating base danger.
A complex covering 1,000 acres, 18 of Saddam Hussein's former presidential palaces, that were a U.S. base, being handed over to Iraqi control when insurgents, right in the middle of the signing over ceremony, fired a mortar into the area. It didn't explode. It landed about 300 meters away from where everyone was sitting. It didn't injure anyone.
U.S. officials said that this was just a futile attempt to disrupt progress, but it does give an indication that insurgents perhaps knew the timing of this event, and perhaps knew that key people would be there and perhaps knew where it was happening on that 1,000-acre site.
We've also seen just in the last few days a coming-together, a coalescing of political views from Iraqi leaders, attending a conference, a three-day conference in Cairo over the weekend, including Iraq's president, prime minister, a hundred other political and religious leaders, saying that they are willing to accept, if some insurgents put their down weapons.
But perhaps more significantly -- again, maybe an olive branch towards the insurgents, maybe towards the Sunnis here in Iraq as well -- but saying that they would like to see -- all the politicians in Iraq saying they would like to see the U.S. set a timetable for pulling out from Iraq, Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Nic, thanks very much. We'll have more on this whole subject. Condoleezza Rice spoke with our John King earlier today over at the State Department. We'll have that interview, that's coming up later here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Let's turn now to some travel woes in the United States. A potent storm system mixed with a sudden cold snap, and millions of holiday travelers. That's a recipe for a travel mess for millions this Thanksgiving.
Let's bring in our senior correspondent Allan Chernoff. He's standing by in La Guardia Airport in New York, with more. What are we bracing for, Allan?
ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, you know that it's going to get pretty bad and guess what, it already is. Many people leave early for their family get-togethers, in order to avoid a big travel mess. But they haven't had much success here at La Guardia Airport.
People waiting to fly to Dallas are now waiting two hours, 45 minutes. And the arrivals, they're virtually all late.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over):
Air passengers trying to beat the Thanksgiving rush got stuck in delays up and down the East Coast. Thunderstorms forced the delays. The worst, in and out of New York's airports. On average, 90 minutes at La Guardia.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My first flight got canceled because of the rain. So I'm going to be here another hour or two.
CHERNOFF: No longer is the day before Thanksgiving the busiest air travel day of the year. More Americans are stretching out their holiday plans.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My rush to work out of office so I could get here as fast as possible, because I heard of all the traffic and all the delays.
CHERNOFF: But, the day prior to Thanksgiving will still be crowded in the air, on the rails and on the roads. Millions will take to the highways with gas prices down to an average of $2.29 a gallon.
ROBERT SINCLAIR, SPOKESMAN, AAA: A lot of people are celebrating because gasoline isn't as high now as it was, perhaps in September. But we're still 25-to-30 cents a gallon ahead of where we were this time last year.
CHERNOFF: Amtrak is adding extra cars. It expects 30 percent more passengers than last Thanksgiving.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's always crazier this time of year. So, I figure the earlier I leave, the better.
CHERNOFF: Some travelers can still avoid the airport crunch and save money, but they'll have to be flexible.
JetBlue is offering a 6 a.m. flight on Thanksgiving morning from New York to Ft. Lauderdale for just $89.
KEVIN KALLEY, MANAGING EDITOR, BESTFARES.COM: Turkey fares, they're all calling them, all over the country now. Fares as low as $118 round trip per person. You can go anywhere from coast to coast for less than $318 round trip per person.
CHERNOFF: Americans are on the move before the holidays even started.
CLAUDETTE WILLIAMS, GEORGIA TRAVELER: I thought tomorrow would be the busiest night, I didn't want to get in all of that rush, so I took today, and here am I in the rush.
CHERNOFF: Unless, of course, you're spending Thanksgiving in Santa Monica. Forecasts call for 80 degrees. See the traffic? Over by the beach.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHERNOFF: The forecast here around New York for tomorrow evening, rain combined with snow -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Not good at all, especially for those who want to travel. Allan, thank you very much.
FEMA is giving thousands of Hurricane Katrina evacuees a holiday gift -- more time to find permanent housing. Let's get some details. CNN's Mary Snow standing by in New York. Mary, how much more time?
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, not much, Wolf. The short answer is, two weeks. It's estimated there are about 53,000 Katrina evacuees still living in hotels and motels across the country. FEMA had said it would stop paying for those hotel bills December 1st. But there was an outcry, and FEMA is now extending the deadline to December 15th.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID PAULISON, ACTING FEMA DIRECTOR: Let me make this really clear. We are not kicking people out into the streets. We are simply moving them from hotels and motels into apartments that we will continue to pay for. So we're not stopping money flowing, we just don't want to pay for hotels and motels anymore. We want to announce our plan for apartments, and to move those families in there. And I think that is the right thing to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: Now, FEMA had said it set the deadline originally to get evacuees into more permanent housing before the holidays, but it says now that some states are having a hard time finding appropriate housing. And here in New York City, officials were among those who asked for an extension, since over 400 people as of last week were still living in hotels and having a very rough time finding affordable housing -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Mary. Thanks very much. Mary Snow in New York.
Let's check in with CNN's Zain Verjee at the CNN Center in Atlanta for a closer look at some other stories making news. Hi, Zain.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Wolf. Federal health officials say quarantine regulations need to be updated to better protect Americans against infectious diseases like bird flu. The Centers for Disease Control is seeking access -- easier access to passenger logs for airliners and ships, as well as the authority to offer vaccinations to people who are quarantined. Officials say viruses such as SARS or bird flu have emphasized the need for much more stringent approaches to guarding against infectious agents from abroad.
NASA is reporting the discovery of small cracks in the insulating foam on a space shuttle fuel tank. Technicians say they located nine hairline fractures in the installation around a tank that was used in tests but not on an actual shuttle flight. They say it's premature to link the cracks to the debris shedding problems that are believed to have caused the Columbia crash, and then it occurred again on the last shuttle mission.
More good news for mothers who breast-feed. New data shows that they're less likely to come down with adult onset diabetes. Researchers say they found that for each year a woman nurses her child, her risk of diabetes is reduced by 15 percent. A woman who's breast-feeding burns around 500 calories a day, producing milk -- that's basically the equivalent of running about four miles. The study was published in this week's "Journal of the American Medical Association."
And Wolf, his looks were his ticket to fame. This is Sam the Dog. He won the ugliest animal contest at the California fair. And you know, he defended his title twice. It wasn't hard, given his hairless body, his crooked teeth and somewhat knobby head. Well, Sam was soon pictured on t-shirts and a calendar, and he appeared on TV, rode in limousines, met Donald Trump. "The Santa Barbara News Press," though, Wolf, is reporting that Sam has died, just shy of his 15th birthday.
Back to you in THE SITUATION ROOM, Wolf. And Jack Cafferty, who I know loves dogs.
BLITZER: It's a very sad story, Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah, it is. Here's another one. Back to Iraq for a minute. Looks like Iraq's political parties are finally agreeing on this -- they want an idea about when foreign forces are going to leave the country. The Sunni, Shiite and Kurdish leaders called yesterday for a timetable for the pullout of U.S.-led forces there. This comes while the administration is under increasing pressure from folks at home, like Representative John Murtha, to take the troops out of Iraq.
Some might wonder if it's a good idea to tell the Iraqis about any sort of a proposed timetable, since the insurgents would likely get wind of it. On the other hand, it is their country, so they probably deserve some idea of when it's going to happen.
The question is this -- what should the conditions be for coalition withdrawal from Iraq? You can e-mail us at caffertyfile@cnn.com.
BLITZER: We'll be waiting for the answers, Jack. Thanks very much, Jack Cafferty, reporting for us.
Coming up, culture wars. The Vatican bans gay priests, but there are some loopholes. We'll have the details. Our Delia Gallagher standing by here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Plus, he's a Nobel Prize nominee, convicted murderer, and he's on death row. Should he live or should he die? Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger now has to decide. We hear from both sides of this very controversial case.
And the war of words. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice in THE SITUATION ROOM. Find out what she says about pulling U.S. troops out of Iraq. The interview with John King, all that still to come.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: A Vatican document was posted on the Internet today, which sends a message to the gay community -- active homosexuals and those who support gay culture are unwelcome in the seminary. Let's get some details from our faith and values correspondent, Delia Gallagher. She is here in THE SITUATION ROOM. Delia, what's going on?
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN FAITH AND VALUES CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, this is a document that was actually due to be released on Tuesday by the Vatican. An Italian news agency got a hold of it, released it on the Internet tonight.
Doesn't talk about gay priests, let's make the distinction. Talks about gay seminarians. So allowing seminarians in who might be gay.
So gay priests are not going to be affected by this document.
But it's in Italian. I pulled out a couple of salient parts for you. So let me just read a couple of these quotes from the document. "The church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question, cannot admit to the seminary those who practice homosexuality, present deeply rooted homosexual tendencies, or support the so-called gay culture."
Then later in the document -- "Where homosexual tendencies are only the expression of a transitory problem, they must be clearly overcome at least three years prior to diaconate ordination."
So, here are some of the sort of key points of this document, kind of making the distinction between a sort of deeply rooted problem and a transitory problem, which of course much will be left up to the judgment of individual bishops and seminary rectors when it comes to adjudicating this.
Now, I also had the chance to talk yesterday and today to two Catholic priests. One of them is a rector of a seminary, Mt. St. Mary's in Maryland, the other is a gay Catholic priest, who obviously have very different views on this subject. Let hear from them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It flows, obviously, from the church's teaching on human sexuality, which has been constant from the 1st century to the 20th century, that homosexuality is an intrinsic disorder. It is a psychosexual disorder. Does that mean that someone is wicked or evil? No. It means they have a psychosexual disorder.
FATHER FRED DALEY, ST. FRANCIS DESALES CHURCH: What I'm afraid this sort of trying to glean out homosexuals and whatever is going to put that whole area back in the closet and will keep folks from being able to work those issues out in the seminary.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Delia, why now? Why this document now? Does it have anything to do with there's a new pope?
GALLAGHER: Not necessarily. No. Because this is something which has actually been going on since the '60s. There's nothing new in this document that this pope, for example, would have said in his tenure so far.
What there is here is a kind of reiteration of the Vatican stance against homosexuality in the seminaries. Surely it is partially due to the whole sex abuse scandal, and the document makes a small reference saying the "current situation." So it is something which is being reiterated, and in a very serious way, of course.
And I think that you've seen these two viewpoints. One is saying well, this is a good thing. Because of this scandal we need to look at the seminaries again. There are apostolic visitations happening right now. There's the visitations from the Vatican to kind of see what's going on in the American seminaries.
And so there is sort of renewed interest in what is going on in the seminaries because that was something that a lot of Vatican people felt was a cause of the sex abuse scandals, a kind of certain -- too much openness in the seminaries, not enough adherence to the moral standards.
BLITZER: Delia Gallagher, our faith and values correspondent, good to have you in the THE SITUATION ROOM.
GALLAGHER: Thank you for having me.
BLITZER: Thanks very much.
Still to come, a convicted murderer nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. Should he live or should he die? A controversial case that's now in the hands of a governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger. We'll get both sides of this story.
Also, Condoleezza Rice one on one in the THE SITUATION ROOM. Find out what she told our John King about pulling troops out of Iraq. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: In the aftermath of that dramatic announcement yesterday involving General Motors and the layoffs of thousands of workers, a lot of people are asking this question today: is your car domestic or imported? It seems like a straightforward question. But the answer might be more complex than you think. Let's bring in CNN' Ali Velshi. He's got "The Bottom Line" for us from New York -- Ali.
ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Here's the bottom line. People still buy cars, they just don't seem to be buying Fords and GMs which has caused a lot of people to ask me in the last couple of days, what exactly is an American car?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VELSHI (voice-over): They used to be called imports, but the label doesn't really work anymore. Seven-point-one million so-called foreign brand cars were sold in the U.S. in 2004. More than half of those were made in America.
So what exactly is an American car? World renowned names like Sweden's Volvo, Japan's Mazda, Britain's Jaguar, and Land Rover are all owned or controlled by Ford. Does that make them American cars? How about Sweden's Saab? It's owned by General Motors.
Walter Chrysler started the Chrysler company in the '20s, but now the company is owned by Germany's Daimler, so what is it? Import or domestic? OK, I'll stop with the trick questions.
We all know what American really is. Picture a big pickup truck, like this Toyota Tundra. Starting next year, it will be made at a sparkling new plant in San Antonio, Texas. Or a Honda minivan, built by American workers in Lincoln, Alabama. Honda's first American car, an Accord, rolled off a plant in Ohio in 1982. Like their home factories, experts say the Japanese-owned plant in the U.S. tend to be newer and more efficient than American-owned plants. For instance, they can build more models using the same equipment, and they are typically not unionized.
BERNARD SWIECKI, CENTER FOR AUTOMOTIVE RESEARCH: The UAW has tried on numerous occasions to organize those plants. And just the sheer threat of the UAW hovering around the corner, trying to organize, has forced the Asian manufacturers to bring their pay and their benefits up to a level that is very, very close to what the UAW would pay.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELSHI: Now, Wolf, Ford -- Toyota and Honda in North America employ about 60,000 people. That's just a fraction of what Ford and GM employ in the country. But those numbers of carmakers, workers for car companies that are based overseas, are increasing in the United States.
Hyundai has a plant in Alabama where it employs about 2,000 people. And Kia of South Korea has announced that it will open a factory in the United States sometime after 2006.
BLITZER: What they call globalization.
VELSHI: Yes.
BLITZER: Ali, thank you very much. Ali Velshi reporting for us.
Just ahead, he's scheduled to be executed two weeks from today and only one man can stop that. The latest on the effort to save the life of a condemned killer.
Plus, our chief national correspondent, John King, sits down with the Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. We'll show you what she says about the increasingly bitter debate over the war in Iraq. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Thousands of people are urging California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to stop the execution of a convicted murder, scheduled two weeks from today. CNN's Chris Lawrence has more from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Stanley Tookie.
JAMIE FOXX, ACTOR: It's Tookie.
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Actor Jamie Foxx is a supporter. He portrayed Stanley "Tookie" Williams in a made for TV movie. So is rapper Snoop Dogg, who attended a rally for Williams outside San Quentin prison this weekend. SNOOP DOGG, RAPPER: It's not just a publicity stunt. It's real people out here. I see people of all walks, all ages, all sizes, all colors. It don't matter. We're all about one thing, humanity, man. It's about keeping this man alive.
LAWRENCE: And just yesterday, the Reverend Jesse Jackson visited Williams on death row, along with Bianca Jagger. Jackson says he's requested a personal meeting with Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to urge him to spare Williams' life.
Why are so many people working to stop this execution? After all, Williams was convicted of murdering four people in 1979. And he was a founding member of the notorious Crips, L.A. street gang. Few dispute those facts. But in the quarter century he's spent in prison, Williams has transformed himself.
He now preaches against gangs. And has written more than a half dozen books teaching children how and why to avoid them. He's also initiated gang truces from behind bars. His efforts have earned him multiple nominations for the Nobel Peace Prize. And supporters, especially those who work with at-risk kids, say executing Williams would send the wrong message.
FRED JACKSON, YOUTH INSTRUCTOR: You would be telling gang members or those wannabe gang members, don't care how you turn your life around, once you are stuck, you are stuck.
LAWRENCE: Others say the nature of Williams' crimes warrant death, despite the fact he's never admitted guilt.
WESLEY MCBRIDE, RET. GANG INVESTIGATOR: His crime partners testified against him and other people he bragged to about the crime, testified against him. I think they have a pretty solid conviction. You kill four people, then you pay the price.
LAWRENCE: Now, only the governor can decide to grant Williams clemency and spare his life. Schwarzenegger's feelings on capital punishment aren't clear. He believes in some level of redemption. Schwarzenegger quietly allowed the parole of dozens of inmates, including some convicted of murder.
On the other hand, he's also denied clemency to two other death- row inmates, and polls show 68 percent of Californians support the death penalty.
Asked about the Williams case recently, Schwarzenegger said he was preparing to review it, adding quote, "I dread that, but it's part of the job."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(on camera): An interesting side note too, Williams and Schwarzenegger have crossed paths before. At least Williams says they have, back in the 1970s. That's when both men were body builders, working out on Muscle Beach right here in Venice, California. This time, of course, they cross paths under very different circumstances. Wolf?
BLITZER: Very different indeed. Chris Lawrence, thanks very much for that report.
Let's get some more on the case now, Stanley "Tookie" Williams. For that we're joined by "San Francisco Chronicle" columnist Debra Saunders. And in New York, Peter Fleming, an attorney for Mr. Williams.
Let me read to you, Debra, what Stanley "Tookie" Williams wrote in 1997. He said, "my goal is to reach as many young minds as possible, to warn you about the perils of a gang lifestyle. I pray that one day, my apology will be accepted. I also pray that your suffering, caused by gang violence, will soon come to an end as more gang members wake up and stop hurting themselves and others. I vow to spend the rest of my life working toward solutions."
If he can save some lives, why not let him live?
DEBRA SAUNDERS, SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE: Well, that's called Tookie's apology. The only problem is, he doesn't apologize for the crimes for which he was convicted.
He killed four innocent people. He was found guilty by a jury, in the very liberal, Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld his conviction. Now, I don't understand why Governor Schwarzenegger would grant clemency to a man who hasn't truly atoned for his crimes by admitting to them.
BLITZER: Well, what about that, Peter Fleming? You're an attorney for Mr. Williams. Has he ever apologized?
PETER FLEMING, WILLIAMS' ATTORNEY: Stanley has never apologized for the murders because Stanley did not commit the murders. Now, the question is, why should Governor Schwarzenegger consider our clemency petition?
BLITZER: You say he didn't commit the murders? He was convicted.
FLEMING: There's a difference, Wolf, between a jury verdict and guilt.
BLITZER: Haven't all the appeals withstood?
FLEMING: Yes, they have. And I say, there is a difference between a conviction and guilt. I've been in this business myself on both sides, as a prosecutor and as a defense attorney, and I can say that with certainty. The question, though, is...
BLITZER: ... let me just be clear. You're saying he's innocent, that he never killed anyone?
FLEMING: I'm saying that Tookie Williams says he is innocent, and I believe him. SAUNDERS: So let be clear on this. This isn't really about not executing Mr. Williams, it's about letting him free. That's your goal, is it not?
FLEMING: No, our clemency petition is to not to kill Tookie Williams, to allow him to live in prison for the rest of his life and continue the work he has done over the past 15 years.
The story is quite extraordinary, Wolf. Here's a man who went to jail, sentenced to death, was put in isolation for six years, probably for the first time in his life had the time to think about himself, came out and completely recanted his life and repudiated his life.
But he did much more than that. He wrote books, he had them published, and they struck a chord. Let me read you what a young girl from south central L.A. wrote to Tookie Williams: Stanley Williams made me think, made me think, and now I know if he can change his life around, then I have the power and confidence to change my own life around.
BLITZER: All right, let me let Debra weigh in on that. Because that's a point a lot of people are making, Debra.
SAUNDERS: Well, you know, if you're in Texas and you're on death row when you want to get off, you find Jesus. If you're in California, you find a publisher. You co-write some books and that's supposed to atone for four brutal deaths.
He didn't completely turn his life around. If he'd completely turned his life around, he would have admitted that he killed these four people. Instead, all of this conversion stuff is designed to get him out, not only of death row, but out of prison. If he'd said one thing that actually inculpated himself, then he'd maybe have some credibility, but he has none.
BLITZER: And on that point, Mr. Fleming, Wayne Owens, the brother of one of the victims, says this, "there's been a lot of talk about redemption, but redemption always begins with taking responsibility for what you've done and who you've harmed."
If it were to mean that he would live if he confessed and he apologized, would you recommend that he go ahead and do so in order to save his life, as opposed to being executed in two weeks?
FLEMING: I would never recommend that Stanley do what was against his conscience. I asked him when I first met him, or told him, advised him, that obviously a confession could help in the petition for clemency.
Stanley Williams told me that if someone were to come to him and tell him that he could have clemency if he were to confess, he would reject that offer. What Stanley Williams lives for is in the 50,000, 60,000 e-mails from children, teachers, parents struggling in difficult circumstances and receiving the message he has given.
Just one thing, Wolf. I was born with a name and my father gave me an opportunity. There are a lot of children out there that we have to tap. They have a name, but they don't have an opportunity. Stanley Williams is sending them the message to persevere, to find purpose, and to reach their potential. Now that's a reason...
BLITZER: ... we'll see what the governor does. Unfortunately, we're all out of time. Peter Fleming, Debra Saunders, we'll see what Governor Schwarzenegger does over the next two weeks. A very, very controversial, sensitive case indeed. Thanks to both of you for joining us.
FLEMING: Thank you.
BLITZER: Some supporters of Williams have taken their struggle online. Our Internet reporter Jacki Schechner is joining us now with more on that.
JACKI SCHECHNER, CNN INTERNET CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, you saw Snoop Dogg wearing the T-shirt in Chris Lawrence's package.
It is savetookie.org. It's an online campaign to save him. You can sign the petition they plan to send to Governor Schwarzenegger.
In contrast though, also available online is this from the L.A. county district attorney's office. It is their answer to their petition for clemency. In that 50-page report, there are pictures of evidence from the alleged crime scenes. You can read what they come to. Essentially their conclusion is he does not deserve clemency.
Wolf, both sides of this argument available for your own perusal online.
BLITZER: All right, thanks very much Jacki. A very sensitive case as I said. We'll see what the governor decides.
Up next, the one-on-one interview with the Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. She speaks with our John King about the war in Iraq, and the White House attacks on John Murtha. We'll tell you what she said. That's coming up. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: With President Bush under a political attack over how we launched the Iraq war and how the conflict will end, our senior administration officials have been speaking out in defense of the president and his policy. One of those officials, the secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, sat down with CNN chief national correspondent John King over at the State Department today. She used diplomatic language to rebut critics who say Iraq policy is adrift. She was more optimistic than other administration officials have been before about when some troops will begin to come home.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: I'm quite certain, John, that what is happening here is that Iraqi forces are getting more capable. They are able of carrying out more functions.
It doesn't mean that coalition forces are no longer needed, because there are still certain functions that they're not capable of doing. But the number of coalition forces is clearly going to come down, because Iraqis are making it possible now for -- to do those functions themselves.
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Clearly going to come down when? Senator Bayh says bring maybe 50,000 home next year. I understand there's a plan circulating within the administration that could bring, assuming conditions on the ground improve, as many as 60,000 home next year.
How many and when?
RICE: I think what the president will want to assess is when can we safely bring down our level of forces so that Iraqis are really capable of achieving the results and the effects that you want, rather than having some artificial timetable.
I suspect that the -- that American forces are not going to be needed in the numbers that they're there for all that much longer, because Iraqis are continuing to make progress in function, not just in numbers, but in their capabilities to do certain functions.
KING: A couple more questions about the debate here at home. You were with the president in Asia when Congressman Murtha laid out his plan. The initial White House statement compared his position to the liberal filmmaker Michael Moore. Then there was a very quick turnaround. Both the president and vice president coming out and saying, we think he's wrong, but the congressman is a fine man, a patriot, an ex-Marine.
You were there. Who made that mistake?
RICE: Well, I know Congressman Murtha and the president knows Congressman Murtha, and he's someone who's always cared for American men and women in uniform, wore the uniform himself with distinction. And this really should have been and is, really, an issue about a respectful disagreement about the timing for American withdrawal, and whether there ought to be a specific timetable.
KING: So that initial statement was a mistake?
RICE: Well, John, the president speaks for the U.S. government. And when the president said that he respects the congressman, respects his views -- in fact, respects that we have a debate going on in this country -- it's perfectly legitimate to have a question about whether or not the removal of Saddam Hussein at this point in time was the right decision. Whether removing him after 17 resolutions was the right decision. Whether removing him so that he can no longer carry out his past policies of torture and rape and mass graves. But people can have different views about this.
KING: The Iraqi factions, who don't always get along, have been meeting with the Arab League and others as they prepare for next month's elections. A statement they did agree on says that they recognize the legitimate right of Iraqi citizens to resist the occupation forces.
How do you explain that to the parent or the spouse of an American service man or woman on the ground in Iraq getting shot at every day, that the people they're fighting for, the people they're trying to protect, to bring these elections and this democracy about, say that the people who are shooting at them have a legitimate right to do so?
RICE: Well, that's not how I read the statement, John. I do think there were many, many voices at this conference. And by the way, the Iraqi government was there, but so were many, many people who were not.
And the purpose is to try to give all Iraqis a sense of stake in their future.
But the line about resistance was very quickly followed by, but of course, we condemn terrorism, and of course, violence should not be sanctioned.
I think what they were trying to do was to give a sense of political inclusion, while recognizing that violence and terrorism should not be a part of resistance.
KING: Why is it, if you look at polling, the president says he's not guided by polling, but 60 percent of the American people say it's not worth it, that it was not worth going to war in Iraq?
RICE: John, we don't look at polling. I think you have to look at...
KING: But you govern in a democracy, and 60 percent of Americans say...
RICE: Well, you govern -- you govern in a democracy...
KING: ... it's not worth it.
RICE: ... and a lot of it is how you ask a question, and what the context is. I'm a social scientist. And I'm myself quite skeptical of polls. I've said that a thousand times. I really mean it. I am a social scientist. I think they -- it's very hard to read polls.
But are the American people concerned about what they're seeing? Absolutely. Are they worried about the loss of life that we are experiencing there, and does that tear deep at them? Absolutely. And it does at us too, those of us in the administration, and most certainly the president who has to make the lonely decision to send forces into battle.
I think you're seeing some of that reflected in some of -- to the degree that you want to look at polls -- you're seeing that sense of unease. (END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Condoleezza Rice, speaking with our John King over at the State Department earlier today. Could she find herself running for president in 2008? One online group hopes so. Let's bring in our Internet reporter, Abbi Tatton, with more -- Abbi.
ABBI TATTON, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Wolf, this is Americansforrice.com, set up by a Miami physician and a North Dakota business woman. This is urging a Condoleezza Rice run in 2008. Now, this draft Condi site is not authorized in any way by the secretary of state. But they're undeterred here at AmericansForRice. They've already been running TV ads in Iowa and New Hampshire, urging that run -- Wolf.
BLITZER: She says she's not running and won't be running. We'll watch and wait and see, thanks very much, Abbi, for that.
Up next, new video of a rocket attack. Is it what it appears to be? And what does it tell us about the situation on the border of Lebanon and Israel?
And when should U.S. troops leave Iraq and on whose terms? The question that has Washington and many Americans at odds. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): As the world kicked off 2005, memories of a massive tsunami still lingered in our minds. Memories swept away by additional epic national disasters. From hurricanes to earthquakes, Mother Nature made us recognize her power. And for this, we recognize her as a candidate for "Time" magazine's person of the year.
NANCY GIBBS, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, TIME MAGAZINE: In the first weeks of the year, our attention was still completely riveted to this astonishing unfolding story of loss and shock and aid and rescue. And that certainly was the defining story of the beginning of the year.
Then, the hurricane season here that was like none other we've ever had, and the finally the earthquakes in Pakistan. From beginning to end, the year seemed to be the year of disaster.
JAN SIMPSON, ASSISTANT MANAGING EDITOR, TIME MAGAZINE: I think a lot of people have said that because of the way Mother Nature has affected the year, people have stepped back and reflected on what's important. I think it's given us, all of us, a lot to think about, in how we're living in this world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's bring back Zain Verjee at the CNN Center in Atlanta for a closer look at some other stories making news around the world. What are you picking up, Zain?
VERJEE: Hi, Wolf. Newly released video purportedly shows scenes from yesterday's violence between Israeli troops and Hezbollah guerrillas along the Lebanese border. The footage was aired on Hezbollah's television station today.
The announcer says the position that you see here, taking rocket fire, is actually an Israeli outpost. Israel says 13 soldiers were wounded in the attacks and it launched more strikes today at Hezbollah positions in southern Lebanon.
Conservative Angela Merkel is Germany's new chancellor. She's also the youngest, at 51 and she's the first woman and first former East German to lead unified Germany. So three firsts today. Merkel's political party won a slim parliamentary plurality in September. Intense negotiations to cobble together a right-left coalition have followed.
The U.N. is reporting that nearly six million children now die each year from hunger and malnutrition. A new report says many of the children are killed by diseases that are easily treatable, like diarrhea and pneumonia, measles. The report points out that most of the developing world is not on track to meet the international goal of cutting the number of hungry people in half by 2015.
And an embarrassing defeat it's been, Wolf, for Kenya's president, Mwai Kibaki. Kenyan voters dealt him a serious blow by saying no to a new constitution. Critics say the draft didn't do enough to curb the president's powers.
Kenyans, Wolf, have been more or less disillusioned with Mwai Kibaki since he came to power in 2002 for not delivering on campaign promises like ending corruption. So this referendum essentially became a vote on Kibaki's own performance over the past three years.
And very quickly, on a lighter note, you know, there were pieces of fruit in this campaign that took quite a prominent and politically significant role. Only a third of Kenyan adults are literate so the government said, you know, look. We're going to make it easy. Just vote banana if you support it, vote oranges if you don't. And you can see people wearing oranges around their neck. The orange camp won -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Maybe we should do that here, Zain. Thanks very much. Zain Verjee reporting.
Still ahead, a life and death question. How and when should U.S. troops in Iraq come home? Jack Cafferty standing by. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's go back to Jack Cafferty in New York -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: Thanks, Wolf. The Sunni, Shiite, and Kurdish leaders called yesterday for a timetable for the pullout of U.S.-led forces in Iraq. The question is, what should the conditions be for coalition withdrawal from that country?
Tahon in Fulton, Missouri writes, "from a military standpoint, the problem in Iraq is a simple one. It's the same one we faced in Vietnam. One, we can't be defeated; two, we can't win. Withdrawal? Simply a matter of how long we want to play the game."
Tom in Cape Giardeau, Missouri: "We should get our boys out of Iraq immediately. They'll be a civil war there whether we leave now or in five years."
Rex in Toronto writes, "the conditions for withdrawal have already been met. There are no WMDs, Saddam is behind bars. American soldiers have done their job. Do we really want them to be referees in the middle of somebody else's civil war? Jack Murtha is right. The military objectives have been achieved. Bring them home."
And finally, Gayle in Alabama: "I understand Iraq wants a timeline for U.S. troops to leave. When the host starts looking at his watch, isn't it time to ask for your coat?"
BLITZER: All right. Thanks very much, Jack Cafferty. Have a great Thanksgiving.
CAFFERTY: You too.
BLITZER: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "PAULA ZAHN NOW" starts right now -- Paula.
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