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The Situation Room
Shopper Gone Wild; Saddam Trial Resumes
Aired November 25, 2005 - 16:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: Well, it's nearly 5:00 p.m. in Washington and you are in THE SITUATION ROOM, where news and information from around the world arrive at one place at the same time.
Happening now, it's nearly 5:00 p.m. in New York. Stores there and across the country are packed with people on this critical shopping day. But the deep discounts are prompting some ugly incidents.
It's 4:00 p.m. in Cedar Grove, Wisconsin, the scene of a holiday tragedy. A father and his young daughter falling through the ice on a partially frozen pond. We'll get the latest from rescue officials on the scene.
It's 1:00 a.m. Saturday in Baghdad where the trial of Saddam Hussein is about to resume with witnesses testifying for the first time. Why do some say the trial shouldn't be held in Iraq at all?
I'm Ali Velshi in for Wolf Blitzer and you're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
It's as traditional as yesterday's turkey. Millions of Americans kicking off the holiday shopping season today at stores and malls across the country. It is not always pretty. In fact, in some cases it has become downright dangerous. CNN's Mary Snow standing by for us at Macy's legendary flagship store in New York.
But first, we start with David Mattingly who is at a Wal-Mart store in -- or just outside -- I don't know if he's in Wal-Mart store. He's in Roswell, Georgia.
David, where are you?
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We're north of Atlanta and a crowd began gathering in this store at 3:30 this morning for a sale that began at 5:00 a.m. That is something you would expect to see on a Black Friday. But in some parts of the country, customers at some stores were getting a lot more than they bargained for.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GROUP: Good morning, welcome to Wal-Mart, whooo!
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Retail employees trying to set a friendly tone for shoppers who turned out early to snap up day after Thanksgiving bargains. But in some stores, the mood was far from friendly.
Police had to be called in to this Wal-Mart in Renton, Washington. A crowd got out of control in the electronics department where plasma TVs and laptop computers were on sale at deep discounts. But there were only a handful available.
SERGEI DALAKIAN, SHOPPER: People saw that there is very limited supply and so all their animal instincts, they came out, and they were behaving like animals.
MATTINGLY: It was even worse at this store in Orlando, Florida, when a fight broke out when one customer allegedly tried to cut in line.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All of a sudden everybody started pushing and shoving and carrying on. And I mean, yelling and screaming. We were getting out of there.
MATTINGLY: And the situation wasn't much better elsewhere in the store.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were throwing these laptops in the air, 20 feet in the air and people were collapsing on each other to grab them. It was ridiculous.
MATTINGLY: At this Wal-Mart near Grand Rapids, Michigan, two would-be shoppers had to be taken to the hospital. They were among several people who were trampled when the stores opened its doors at 5:00 a.m. The demand for some items, especially electronics, is so high this year, some people are resorting to crime.
PATSY SPRINGER, ROBBERY VICTIM: He was going to kill me for that game.
MATTINGLY: This Georgia woman was robbed at gunpoint at her home near Atlanta as she returned with an Xbox she had just bought for her son for Christmas.
SPRINGER: All of a sudden I was pushed back this way and here was this man and it was like this -- it was a gun, I just remember seeing like the barrel of it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY: No incidents like that to report at this location. In fact, store managers here say that sales were very good, a very good indicator of Black Friday in hopes that this holiday season will be a good one for retailers -- Ali.
VELSHI: Highlights of the worst that those are, still surprising that it happens. David, stay safe while you're doing the story for us. David Mattingly in Georgia.
Buyers beware, Black Friday is supposed to be a deal-finding grabfest, but as we have just seen in many cases it looks more like a slugfest. Mary Snow has got her boxing gloves, she is live in New York outside the legendary Macy's store in Herald Square..
Mary, are you OK there?
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We're holding steady so far, Ali. But you know, just as we've seen shoppers across the country today duking it out, behind the scenes retailers have been trying to elbow each other out in an all-out price war. And today as we've seen, some shoppers think that there are bargains that is worth fighting for.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW (voice-over): They search for bargains long before the sun came up in Oakland, California. And they lined up early in Maryland. And it's the dash to discounters like Wal-Mart that's put department stores like Macy's on the offensive.
Macy's in New York opened its doors at 6:00 a.m. it counted over 1,000 people who waited for the store to open, including one woman who took a midnight train from Washington, D.C.
NICOLE JACKSON, HOLIDAY SHOPPER: You want to hit all the sales so you've got be first so you can get everything before everyone else does.
SNOW: With Wal-Mart offering to match competitors' prices on everything from laptops to TVs, it triggered other retailers to fire back with deep discounts. And those discounts came earlier in the season than previous years. Macy's slashed the price on some men's shirts by 75 percent.
KRUT BARNARD, BARNARD'S RETAIL CONSULTING GROUP: Just about every retailer today except the most upscale ones are in the line of fire of Wal-Mart.
SNOW: Along with the competition, retailers overall are worried that high gas prices and steep home heating bills this winter will eat into the budgets of people like Douglas Miller who says he plans to scale back on gifts this year.
DOUGLAS MILLER, HOLIDAY SHOPPER: Gasoline has affected us though. I mean, my wife and daughter drive to work and the gasoline has been quite high, although it has been scaled back some in the last couple of weeks.
SNOW: Because of a price dip in gasoline, retailers are hoping to hook in shoppers early. But along with the frenzy comes a backlash. Here in New York, a performance artist who calls himself the Reverend Billy is part of a larger crusade to encourage people to stop unnecessary shopping.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: And that was all part of a campaign for a Buy Nothing Day. But certainly did not stop the crowds here at Macy's. And, Ali, you know, for all the frenzy, this isn't even the busiest shopping day of the year. It had been at one point but what analysts have shown us lately is that the Saturday before Christmas turns out to be the busiest shopping day of the year.
VELSHI: Now, just for people who don't know, Mary, the buy nothing is OK for you today because you're not a particularly early Christmas shopper so you don't feel like you're missing anything today, right?
SNOW: Except I bought presents for all you guys on the show, so.
VELSHI: You are too, too kind. You can share that with us at -- I guess we'll see you again in a little while. Mary Snow outside of Macy's in Herald Square in New York.
Now to Iraq. The historic trial of Saddam Hussein is poised to resume in Baghdad. And for the first time, we will be hearing from witnesses who are testifying about the former dictator's alleged crimes against humanity. We have got two reports for you. CNN's Barbara Starr is at the Pentagon with a look at why some say the trial should be moved out of Iraq.
But we begin with our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson who joins us live from Baghdad -- Nic.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Ali, it's not clear if we're going to get to see those witnesses in the court, whether they'll opt to give their testimony from behind screens or even by video link from a different location. But they will be there. Some people are quite surprised that the trial is getting under way. Two defense lawyers have been killed by targeted assassinations since the trial first began.
Why did that happen? Nobody knows. The other defense lawyers said, unless we get security, unless we get a good investigation, we're not going to turn up at the court. That does seem to have been overcome now. They are expected to be there. A lot of people here in Iraq, though, watching intensely.
A lot of people here lost loved ones under Saddam Hussein. A lot of them want to get on to their trial, cases that are important to them personally -- Ali.
VELSHI: Nic, what is the feeling in Iraq about the potential of Saddam Hussein being found guilty and getting the death penalty? How do Iraqis feel about the death penalty?
ROBERTSON: You know, a lot of Shias, those who suffered under Saddam Hussein are very happy to see him in court, want to see him suffer, and many of them you talk to say, yes, just give him the death penalty, why even bother going through the trial?
But there are a lot of people who recognize that killing Saddam Hussein is not solve their problems today. So it is a mixed feeling, it's perhaps about 50/50 on that, Ali.
VELSHI: All right. It's going to be a busy week, Nic, and we'll be checking in with you. Nic Robertson live in Baghdad. Now to Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr. She talked to some people who think the trial is being held in the wrong place -- Barbara.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ali, Nic is exactly right, of course, the tensions in the courtroom will be extraordinarily high on Monday and, still, a lot of questions about whether it should take place there at all.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STARR (voice-over): As Saddam Hussein's trial resumes with massive security precautions, there are questions about whether it should even be held in Iraq at all. Some analysts say the trial should have been at the International Criminal Court at the Hague. So it would have been a truly international effort.
THOMAS P.M. BARNETT, AUTHOR, "BLUEPRINT FOR ACTION": I think ultimately what we're trying to justify here and what we're trying to create or build is a case law for the advanced countries of the world to come together and decide under what conditions a politically bankrupt regime in the world needs to be taken down and its leaders processed for war crimes.
STARR: But the decision to try Saddam inside Iraq was part of an effort to show him to the Iraqi people as a deposed dictator, charged with crimes against humanity, and equally important, show that the new Iraqi judicial system could handle the challenge.
COL. DOUGLAS MACGREGOR (RET.), AUTHOR, "TRANSFORMATION UNDER FIRE": Ideally one would like to see justice administered by the people who suffered most at his hands. And that would be the people inside Iraq.
STARR: Security for the trial will remain a paramount concern as witnesses are set to begin testifying. Two of Saddam's lawyers already have been murdered, another wounded in targeted assassinations.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
STARR: And, Ali, the court session on Monday will focus on that testimony from people about the alleged participation of Saddam in ordering the murder of 148 men back in 1982 after an assassination attempt against him -- Ali.
VELSHI: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, thanks for joining us. Barbara Starr is there.
Well, what was supposed to be a fun day of ice skating turned tragic. A father and daughter fall through an icy pond. We're going to have details from Wisconsin.
And in the balloon accident from the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, two sisters were hurt. We told you about that yesterday. After the break, the family is going to tell you how they're doing. Also a desperate call to save these cheetah cubs in Africa. Wait until you hear who came to the rescue.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: It's a split-second decision any parent would make, but it ended in tragedy. In Wisconsin a 9-year-old girl breaks through ice on a lake. The girl's father rushes in to save her, all while the girl's 6-year-old sister watched. The father and the 9-year-old girl did not survive. Rescue crews have just pulled their bodies from the pond in Cedar Grove, Wisconsin. Officials say it all happened during an ice skating outing.
On the phone with us now from Sheboygan, Wisconsin, is Sheboygan County Sheriff Michael Hellmke. Sheriff, thank you for joining us. You were on the scene, what a tragic situation. Tell me about the ice conditions on this pond. Was it the kind of ice that one would have been skating on?
MIKE HELLMKE, SHEBOYGAN COUNTY SHERIFF: Well, we haven't had any real sustained cold here, so the ice was about three to four inches thick in its thickest spot.
VELSHI: Is that enough? Is that thick enough for someone to go skating on? I mean, there are a lot of pond and small lakes in the area and it's a popular winter thing to do, to go ice skating on the local pond.
HELLMKE: Yes, it is. But in my estimation, three to four inches of ice is not thick enough to hold up even people on the ice.
VELSHI: Sheriff, the girl and her father, the other daughter, the 6-year-old daughter was on the shore, she apparently ran to her relative's house or nearby home where emergency services were called.
HELLMKE: That is correct.
VELSHI: Tell me a little bit about living up there and seeing ice and people getting on the ice when it starts to freeze, what do you tell a parent? What is a parent supposed to do if somebody goes through the ice? What is anybody supposed to be do if they witness somebody going through the ice?
HELLMKE: Well, obviously, you don't want to go right out to the edge of the ice where they are because of the unstableness of the ice. So, if there's anything nearby, a branch or rope, anything that you could toss to the person, that would be the best thing to do.
VELSHI: How deep was this pond? We've been seeing shots of it from a helicopter. It doesn't look like a very big pond. Is it deep?
HELLMKE: It's about eight to 10 feet deep in its deepest spots, which is in the middle and, yes, you're correct, it's really a retention -- water retention pond for the village of Cedar Grove, so it is not very large. VELSHI: And dangerous for a child, but doesn't seem to be the sort of thing that when you go out on a late fall, early winter morning to skate on, it doesn't look like the kind of thing that tragedy would be on your mind.
HELLMKE: Oh, absolutely not.
VELSHI: Let's talk a little bit about what it looks like now. Those pictures that we're seeing that were taken earlier, the pond doesn't appear to have any solid ice on it at all, was that ice that was broken by rescuers?
HELLMKE: Correct. The -- in the attempts to rescue the individuals, the ice was broken up and broken away.
VELSHI: How are you getting the information on what happened before emergency workers were called? Obviously, this poor girl, the younger sister witnessed this. She had the presence of mind to do the right thing about it, to go and call for help.
HELLMKE: Correct. And as you had said, she was the only one on- scene at the time, so, she was the only witness to the tragic event.
VELSHI: Sheriff Hellmke, thank you for being with us and our best wishes go out to the community.
HELLMKE: Thanks, Ali.
VELSHI: Sheriff Michael Hellmke is with the Sheboygan County Sheriff.
Well, the two sisters who were injured by a balloon accident during the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade are planning to go back to the parade next year. Macy's invited Sarah and Mary Chamberlain to sit in the VIP section in 2006. One assumes there are no overhead lights there, but Macy's is doing this to make amends. They have accepted. Their father, Stephen, says he won't sue Macy's because, in his words, accidents happen.
Today he described how the parade nightmare for them played out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN CHAMBERLAIN, DAUGHTER INJURED AT PARADE: We were down at the Thanksgiving parade yesterday, as everyone all knows. We had a great time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could you tell that the balloon was coming maybe down the street the wrong way?
CHAMBERLAIN: I mean, you could see the balloon going back and forth in front of -- or on the street, but to see it get hooked, Sarah saw it get hooked, and you know, it tore the balloon and she's upset that the balloon deflated.
It wasn't the balloon, it was the globe from the... UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Street lamp?
CHAMBERLAIN: From the street lamp. You know, like a giant acorn. But there wasn't a whole lot of time to react. It's like it hit and we checked Mary to make sure she was OK. And Sarah didn't even know she was cut until blood started going down the side of her head.
It was a freak accident. Accidents happen. It could have been much worse, but it wasn't and for that, we're thankful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: A generous man in the spirit of Thanksgiving, 11-year- old Sarah took nine stitches to her sister and her head. Her 26-year- old sister, Mary, who is confined to a wheelchair, suffered a bump on her forehead.
Well, coming up, federal authorities arrest the Muslim spiritual leader of Ohio's largest mosque. We're going to tell you why come when we come back.
And anti-war protesters, including Cindy Sheehan find new ways to keep the pressure on President Bush. We'll have a live report from Crawford, Texas. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: A Muslim cleric in Ohio has been arrested by federal immigration authorities. CNN's national security correspondent David Ensor is live for us with the details of the charges against him.
David, what have we got?
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Ali, he's Imam Fawaz Mohammed Damra, a 44-year-old Palestinian-born Muslim cleric. And he's being charged with soliciting funds for terrorist groups. Now these are administrative, not criminal charges, and officials say the real idea here is to put Damra into the immigration court system and give a judge possible grounds to have him deported.
Damra is the head of the Islamic Center of Cleveland. He is someone federal officials have been watching for some time. He was stripped of U.S. citizenship after being found guilty of lying about ties of designated terrorist organizations during his application for an American citizenship.
He was arrested at his suburban Cleveland home and officials say he will probably appear before a judge in Detroit next week. We're gathering that Damra is not really a big fish, but he worries FBI officials enough that they would like to see him outside this country -- Ali.
VELSHI: David, in your experience, what does that mean that they would rather have them deported than prosecuted in the United States? Is that because he is not seen as a big fish? ENSOR: Right. They don't see -- he's not guilty of terrorism himself or being an accessory to terrorist acts, but he hangs around with the wrong people, tries to raise money for them. At least, those are the charges. And at this point federal officials would like to see him outside the United States, not in.
VELSHI: And when you mention administrative charges, that's because it's not in the criminal system, if it is in the immigration system.
ENSOR: That's correct. That's right.
VELSHI: David Ensor, our national security correspondent, thanks very much for that.
Well, coming up, after the eruption, is the volcano in Columbia still a threat? We're going to have a live report from the hot zone.
And who is to blame for a toxic river? Officials are sorting through the mess and asking some questions. We're going to find out whether dangerous secrets were kept away from those who needed to know. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Here's a look at some of the hot shots coming in from our friends at the Associated Press. These are pictures likely to be in your newspaper tomorrow. We begin in the capital of Iran where mourners attended a funeral for 110 unknown casualties of the Iran- Iraq War. Their remains were only recently discovered.
Unrest in India. People watch as rioters burn a police outpost. The protests were sparked by the killing of a student leader who was shot by unknown assailants.
Over to Turkey, a very well-camouflaged sniper participates in a three-day military exercise.
And in Indonesia, bird flu fears. A government officials hurls a bird cage into a fire. A teenage girl died of bird flu in this neighborhood earlier this month.
And those are today's hot shot pictures from the best photographers in the world.
Well, anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan is trying a new way to protest in President Bush's Texas backyard, today she is helping dedicate a memorial garden to the more than 2,000 U.S. troops that have been killed in Iraq. One of those was her son.
CNN's Elaine Quijano is with the president in Crawford, Texas -- Elaine.
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Ali. As you remember, Cindy Sheehan's name became very familiar back in August when she first brought her anti-war protest here to Crawford, Texas. Those protests at their height drew thousands of people, but today, no where near those numbers.
Sheehan joined about 50 other demonstrators in dedicating a stone memorial to her son, Casey, who killed in Iraq. The memorial also dedicated to more than a dozen other U.S. service members who were killed there was well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY SHEEHAN, ANTI-WAR PROTESTER: This is a very beautiful place and it's filled with good people and I know that we have more in common than we have that separate us. But we're here to say that the killing has to stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUIJANO: Now, Sheehan's visit comes at a time when President Bush is facing falling public support for his Iraq policy. Nevertheless, Sheehan's presence here in Crawford has also drawn a handful of counter-demonstrators, people who support President Bush. And those saying today that they believe Cindy Sheehan's efforts and the efforts of anti-war activists are hurting the morale of U.S. forces abroad.
Now, as for President Bush, no public events on his schedule today. We understand he had his usual briefings and, basically, Ali, is spending the day with family -- Ali..
VELSHI: Elaine, and that's a perfect place to take you to our next thing. Elaine Quijano in Crawford, Texas, with the president. Elaine talking about the morale of the troops in Iraq. And with this holiday upon us, CNN has been keeping a very close eye on the morale of the U.S. soldiers in Iraq. Our Aneesh Raman is embedded with troops in the central part of the country where we haven't -- we have been asked not to reveal their exact location. But one of the things Aneesh has been keeping a close eye on is how those troops are feeling and reacting to the debate at home -- Aneesh.
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ali, yes, interesting, when you're embedded you really get a fuller sense of what it is to be a soldier out here in Iraq. We are living among the troops, myself, my producer Cal Perry (ph), cameraman Neil Hallsworth (ph).
We go out on missions as often as we can and we have spoken to them about the debate back home, specifically as well about Cindy Sheehan. And you get an appreciation for the fact that all of that, for them, has to be kept out of mind. It is a must, because they exit these gates every day and face the real threat of -- of getting killed by IEDs, by car bombs, by arms fire -- small-arms fire.
And, so, for them, it isn't a matter of whether they think they should be here or not, essentially, as well, whether the country thinks they should be here or not, but, really, only whether the president thinks they should be here or not. That is who they take their orders from. And they stay until he sends -- he sends them home. The other thing that's interesting, though, when you're on an embed like this, you get a great sense for the complexity of this fight. This area houses, according to the military, virtually every insurgent group in Iraq. They have ruled the civilian population by fear. Intelligence is incredibly difficult to come by. The Iraqi security forces have a long way to go.
So, for the commanders on the ground, difficult decisions every day and a fight that many of them are not trained to do, but are learning on the ground -- Ali.
VELSHI: You know, Aneesh, as much as -- as you have been able to tell us -- and we have heard elsewhere that they're able to maintain their focus on the job at hand, despite the political debate back home.
The one thing that one wonders has to shake them up is the news that gets to them of the number of -- of casualties around them, U.S. casualties.
Do -- do -- do you find that fear, the fear that, with -- surrounded by insurgents, as you say, that -- that they could -- it could be a dangerous day every day?
RAMAN: All of them, every soldier I have spoken to on this base, comes to terms with the fact that they face death as they exit these gates.
This squadron we are with has lost 19 soldiers, one of them yesterday, after their Abrams tank tipped over -- Thanksgiving Day, alone, in this area, called the Triangle of Death, four U.S. soldiers wounded by a car bomb, that soldier I just spoke of, who died after his tank flipped over. Two other soldiers died after an IED attack. So, they know all too well the cost of war. They know the realities of this fight better than anyone else.
And, so, they have different tricks that they use to help them cope with that. They also rely on each other. But it is war, nothing less than that. And they know that too well -- Ali.
VELSHI: Aneesh, stay safe out there -- Aneesh Raman in central Iraq, embedded with U.S. troops.
Let's talk more now about the Iraq mission now with our political analyst Carlos Watson.
Carlos, good to see you.
CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Good to see you.
VELSHI: The president is stuck in a -- in a -- in a quagmire. It's never been expedient politically to be in a protracted war that is unpopular. What -- what happens now? What does the president have to do? And what are the lessons he learns from, from history?
WATSON: Well, the last two presidents, Ali, who have failed to turn a -- a struggling war around, namely, President Truman during the Korean War, and President Johnson during the Vietnam War, obviously suffered for that politically, never really regained any footing.
In fact, President Truman's approval numbers were the lowest, until Richard Nixon came along, during the Watergate era, for an incumbent president, in the mid-20s.
So, for President Bush, I think there are at least four things that we are likely to hear more about over the next six to eight weeks -- one, obviously, what happens in the December 15 parliamentary -- parliamentary elections over in Iraq. That could offer some good news for him.
Two, I think the question is, can he summon up more voices on behalf of his policy, besides his own? It's clear that, whether Cindy Sheehan or John Murtha or -- or others, people who are on the other side of the debate have brought new voices to the table. He hasn't done it yet.
The third thing is whether or not he can bring new troops to the table, and not American and not European, but maybe a conversation about more Arab troops. That is, frankly, a very thorny conversation. There are lots of levels to that. But I think that's a third piece of what we're likely to talk more about.
VELSHI: Now, as much as to a lot of people, it may seem like the same issue, the -- the -- the -- the receding popularity of the war is separate from the receding popularity of -- of the presidency, even though they are linked.
What does the president's popularity right now -- what kind of opportunities does that provide for -- for opponents and -- and maybe other parties?
WATSON: Well, what -- what I think is interesting, what we have seen with Cindy Sheehan, or whether it's others, is that the opportunity for political vacuum not only offers an opportunity for Democrats or Republicans, but maybe for non-traditional political powers, or even third parties.
And one of the conversations, Ali, as we get closer to 2006, and even 2008, is, will we see a major emergence of a new third party or even plural, third parties, what we saw in 1948, where there were two substantial third parties? We saw that in the 1912 election.
Will we see, for example, those strongly anti-war Democrats not only turn on the president, but, in fact, turn on so-called centrist Democrats and form a third party? And, over on the Republican side, depending on what happens over the next year or two, for example, there's a world in which you could see some social conservatives, if they remain unhappy with a president who, for example, begins to compromise more with Democrats begin to peel off on their own.
So, I think the emergence of third parties could be an interesting part of the conversation in the new year.
VELSHI: Carlos Watson, good to talk to you. Thanks for being with us, Carlos Watson, our political analyst.
Well, at the foot of the volcano hour, Karl Penhaul is live in Colombia. He will update us on the threat from a 14,000-foot monster that has recently come to life.
Plus, the chubby kid who grew up to be president -- Bill Clinton takes on the cause of childhood obesity. He talks to our Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Back to CNN Center in Atlanta for a look at stories around the world.
Zain Verjee is covering those. And there are lots of them -- Zain.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ali, we are covering one in China in the Northeast region. A toxic chemical spill in a river has left millions of people without tap water for three days. And, as China tries to clean up the mess, the focus is shifting as to who is to blame.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZHANG LIJUN, CHINESE STATE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ADMINISTRATION (through translator): Is it is clear who is responsible for this accident. Jilin Chemical Company is mainly responsible for this pollution accident.
VERJEE (voice-over): That charge from a top official with China's environmental watchdog. The official also says a probe of the chemical spill into the Songhua River will look at possible criminal responsibility.
Today, China sent teams of investigators to the northeast city of Harbin. The state-run news agency says, "The presence of disciplinary officials in the team indicated punishments of irresponsible acts are on the way."
An explosion at a chemical plant 12 days ago sent some 100 tons of the cancer-causing chemical benzene into the Songhua River and killed five people. The spill was kept secret for days. Today, one newspaper reported, at the time of the accident, environmental protection officials discharged water from a reservoir into the river in an attempt to dilute the toxic spill, and did not warn the public about it.
China's State Environmental Protection Agency rejects accusations local authorities waited too long before telling residents. The resulting 50-mile toxic slick is expected to flow past the city of Harbin by tomorrow. Today, officials are sending volumes of water into the river to dilute the slick and installing charcoal filters to help absorb the main pollutant. Residents have been scrambling for bottled water and getting up early to get some of the stockpiled water reserves, angering some residents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): How could we not feel tired? We have to get up early to fetch water so early. We have to stand in line early in the morning.
VERJEE: Meanwhile, the toxic slick is headed toward a Russian city, some 400 miles downriver from Harbin. And officials say it could get there within days.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VERJEE: Ali, Russian environmental officials are downplaying the threat to that city, suggesting the water's toxic concentration should be much lower by the time it actually flows into Russia. But the Russian territory is preparing emergency plans, anyway, and they're considering shutting down water supplies -- Ali.
VELSHI: It's a good test of media in China. This is a big environmental mess, by any standards.
VERJEE: Yes.
VELSHI: How are Chinese newspapers playing this?
VERJEE: Well, it -- it's really interesting.
I mean, the media there is state-controlled. And newspapers are normally very docile, as you would well imagine. But, actually, they have been very, very critical of the government this time around. One newspaper has basically published a list of all the official missteps and confusions, saying, look, the government needs to be transparent, and they have got to get this information out fast. Otherwise, it will cause rumors.
And another paper said, look, you know, the government should have learned from the outbreak of SARS, because it was really criticized for withholding information, and they need to tell the public the truth.
Analysts also, Ali, say that, look, you have to be careful, though, also. These comments wouldn't be published without some high- level official agreement that may be out there, perhaps to send a signal to other officials around the country that, you better not let this happen again.
VELSHI: Interesting. But it's an interesting development, nonetheless.
VERJEE: It is...
VELSHI: Zain...
VERJEE: ... absolutely. VELSHI: .. we will check in with you again -- Zain Verjee at the CNN Center in Atlanta.
Coming up next, former President Bill Clinton takes on a new cause. He talks to our Dr. Sanjay Gupta about his own experience with childhood obesity.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Well, one day after it covered a nearby city with ash, a volcano in Colombia is now said to be settling down.
Let's get the latest on the activity at the Galeras volcano.
On the phone is Karl -- on the videophone is CNN's Karl Penhaul in -- in or near Pasto, Colombia -- Karl.
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We're actually in the village of Genoy, Ali. And we are in the shadow of the Galeras volcano. That's the volcano behind me.
Now, as night is feeling, things are seeming to be a lot quieter now. But, throughout the day, we have seen that volcano blow out boil -- columns of boiling water vapor, and also clouds mixed with sulfur dioxide, we're told, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. And the volcano experts say, there is still a great danger here and that the people here should move, Ali.
VELSHI: I don't mean this as a silly question. You have seen your share of activity, so I -- I'm sure you know what you're doing. But that volcano is pretty close to you. And if you're prepared to take everybody's word for it that it's settling down -- if it were not settling down, are you able to get out of there? Well -- well, how close are you? Is that it around over your shoulder?
PENHAUL: Exactly.
That's it just over our shoulder there. And the volcano experts say -- have -- have dropped the level of alert slightly, but are saying, there is still a grave danger here. What they're saying here is that, in the next few days, this thing could erupt in a significant fashion.
They have flown over the volcano today. And they say there's magma and lava bubbling around there in the crater. They say that all this vapor is coming out. And, more importantly, Ali, they say the very grave danger for this village where we are now is that pyroclastic clouds, as they call them, could roll down the hill.
Now, these are clouds of -- of -- of boiling water vapor, mixed with rocks and particles, of temperatures up to 1,400 degrees Fahrenheit. They say, at any time, those could roll down this volcano -- Ali.
VELSHI: Karl Penhaul, stay safe.
Karl Penhaul is in Genoy in Colombia.
For another look at that eruption in Colombia, let's go to Abbi Tatton, our Internet reporter, with more -- Abbi.
ABBI TATTON, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Ali, somewhat safer than standing next the volcano is checking in on what is happening online.
This is -- these are pictures from the city of Pasto, very close to where Karl was reporting from. This is -- these are Webcam images. They are updated every two minutes. And we have been checking on this -- this is a Webcam trained on the volcano there.
We have been checking on this all day. You can see some of the smoke around it. Now, the -- the change that it has -- the -- I'm sorry -- the threat level has been lowered slightly. It is now at a level two, but they are still saying that there is a threat of an eruption in the next few days. So, this is definitely a Webcam worth checking in on in those next few days -- Ali.
VELSHI: Abbi, thanks very much.
Well, coming up next, President Bill Clinton talks with Sanjay Gupta about his childhood.
Also ahead, even the fastest animal in the world sometimes needs some human help.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
And even though Zain in is in Atlanta, she's also in...
(LAUGHTER)
VELSHI: ... THE SITUATION ROOM.
VERJEE: I'm in THE SITUATION ROOM, but I'm not in "the" SITUATION ROOM.
VELSHI: No. And I am.
VERJEE: You are.
VELSHI: And I have got to tell you, it is -- it's nice. It's climate-controlled.
(LAUGHTER)
VERJEE: Indonesia's health minister says her nation will start manufacturing Tamiflu. The announcement came as the minister met with her counterpart from Singapore. It's believed that Tamiflu may ease symptoms of bird flu. And Indonesia wants to stock up. The Swiss company that has the rights to Tamiflu says it has no patent for the medication in Indonesia.
Another small sign of hope in New Orleans, in the wake of Hurricane Katrina -- some of the city's winged and four-legged residents have their home back. The New Orleans Zoo is open again. It reopened to members today. It's scheduled to open to the public, at no charge, tomorrow.
Police in Oregon have arrested a man for allegedly trafficking stolen Legos. Police say William Swanberg would switch the bar codes on the toy block sets at Target stores. According to police, he would buy the high-priced sets for the cheaper price and then resell them on the Internet. Now, it took a 20-foot truck to haul the evidence from his home.
And about 30 million Americans are getting back home by road this holiday weekend. Those of you who haven't headed out yet, you are going to find that it's going to cost you an average of $2.17 a gallon to fill your tank. That's about 30 cents a gallon less than it was three months ago, at the height of hurricane season -- Ali.
VELSHI: All right. I am going to talk a little more about the gas.
But the -- the Lego guy, I mean, I'm always one to admire a -- a creative mind, but that just seems unduly complicated.
VERJEE: Unduly complicated. Did you play with Lego ever?
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: Yes.
VERJEE: Yes?
VELSHI: I didn't switch the bar codes on the Lego.
(LAUGHTER)
VELSHI: I mean, I turned out to be a business journalist. I -- I -- some people's schemes...
VERJEE: Do you know...
VELSHI: ... just seem too tricky.
VERJEE: ... that five -- that children around the world spend five billion hours playing with Lego?
VELSHI: Each?
VERJEE: No.
(LAUGHTER)
VERJEE: No. That was just you.
VELSHI: Collectively, yes.
(LAUGHTER)
VELSHI: Yes. Well, then, no wonder why they're not getting their homework done.
Zain, we will check in with you again. Thank you.
Zain was talking about gas prices being about 30 cents a gallon higher (sic) than they were at the height of the hurricane season. If you are one of those people who haven't gone home yet and you want to save a few bucks on the ride back, the Internet is your friend, which means Abbi Tatton is your friend.
(LAUGHTER)
TATTON: Ali, these are some sites that you are definitely going to want to check in with before you head home after Thanksgiving.
Mapgasprices.com allows you to punch in your zip code or the city or state that you're traveling through and search for the cheapest prices around. It will give you a map. We did San Francisco here. And you can see how much the prices fluctuate, very close. Two-thirty one there per gallon -- just a few blocks away here in San Francisco, $2.57.
Now, there are a bunch of different sites like this. Gasbuddy.com is another one -- actually, an umbrella site of 170 Web sites all around the country, where volunteers submit the cheapest prices around them, so, you can find that online -- Ali.
VELSHI: Power of the people on the Web.
TATTON: Absolutely.
VELSHI: Abbi, good to talk to you. We will catch up with you in a little bit -- our Internet reporter, Abbi Tatton.
Former President Bill Clinton admits a long love affair for junk food. Now, part of that passion contributed to his heart disease, which led last year to a heart bypass surgery. Now he's trimmer and healthier.
And he tells our senior medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, about his battles with weight and eating unhealthy foods that he says were not only dangerous to him, but dangerous to others, including teenagers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: People want to know how you're feeling.
WILLIAM J. CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm doing great. I think I have made a complete recovery.
And I'm back, resuming full-time work activity. And I'm playing golf and doing everything I did before.
GUPTA: You look great. You look fit and trim as well.
CLINTON: Thank you.
GUPTA: Well, obviously, there's a link -- and you have talked about this -- between your own diet and your subsequent heart problems. Talk about that. What -- were you overweight as a child, as an adolescent?
CLINTON: I was. I was overweight.
You know, I was probably in the last generation of Americans where people widely thought a fat baby was a healthy baby. And I lived with my grandparents until I was 4. My mother went back to nursing school after my father died. And they just stuffed me.
And, so, I was -- I always battled my weight all the way through school, although I had pretty well gotten it down by the time I finished high school. I was 6'1'' and weighed 192 pounds when I graduated from high school. And that's about what I am now.
GUPTA: How -- how bad did it get? I mean, you know, obviously -- and you've talked about this...
CLINTON: Oh, I was five -- when I was 13, I was 5'8'' and weighed 185 pounds.
GUPTA: Is that right?
CLINTON: Yes.
GUPTA: What was the -- what was the worst meal? Do you remember the worst meal you ever had or the types of food that were the worst that you would ever eat?
CLINTON: No, I -- I ate, but I ate a lot of stuff that was high in fat, and high -- and I ate a lot of it. And I -- you know, I just didn't think about it, and I didn't have regular exercise.
But what happened to me is now systematically helping -- happening to a younger generation of people, because, first of all, food is still a pretty good bargain in America. And a lot of working families who have to work don't have much time, don't have time to prepare food at home, and have to spend a lot of money on housing, on transportation, and other things, health care.
They know they can get, you know, high value with the dollar with food, in terms of bulk. And a lot of this food that's purchased, particularly in -- in restaurants, fast-food places, is higher in fat content and sugar content, and in bigger portions than was the case 20 years ago. And I understand why all this happened.
But the bottom line is that we've got too many kids too overweight. And they're walking time bombs. They're going to get adult onset diabetes too early. They're going to have cardiovascular problems. And the system is really going to be stressed.
GUPTA: Is it your personal sort of background that got you most interested in childhood obesity? I mean, there are so many things that you, as a former president, can do.
CLINTON: Well, when I -- first of all, when I had my heart problem, I was approached by the Heart Association, as kind of America's most recently famous heart patient.
GUPTA: Mmm-hmm.
CLINTON: And I thought I ought to do something for health care, but I told them I wanted to think about it. I settled on this childhood obesity thing, not only because I got it, because I was a heavy child, but because I'm really worried about it.
I mean, the rates are too high. We have never had statistically significant numbers of kids with adult onset diabetes before. Emory University has done a study saying that obesity alone accounted for 25 percent of the increase in health costs over the last 15 years.
So, I thought it was a chance where I could save the most lives, do the most good, and also do something that I understood from my own experience.
GUPTA: Is it a solvable problem, do you think?
CLINTON: Absolutely. It is.
But I think it's a problem with more than one piece. I think -- if I could very briefly, I think, first of all, we really need to help of the restaurants and the fast-food places, in offering more hear- healthy items, and then lowering the trans fat and sugar contents of their preparation of all items.
Secondly, we need to improve the quality of the school lunches.
Thirdly, we need to either get the vending machines out of the schools, or get the bad stuff out of the vending machines.
And, then, fourthly, we need greater awareness on the part of the parents. And we need a -- a young persons' movement to eat healthy.
When I announced this program with the governor of Arkansas and the Heart Association in Harlem, we did it at a school with fresh fruit and vegetables, where the kids were writing essays to me, 6- and 7-year-old kids writing essays to me on the importance of eating healthy. So, we can do this.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GUPTA: You can see that entire interview on fighting childhood obesity on "HOUSE CALL WITH DR. SANJAY GUPTA" tomorrow at 8:30 a.m. Eastern, 5:30 Pacific.
Well, it's a unique mission for the U.S. military. CNN's Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr joins us to explain.
Hey, Barbara.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Ali.
U.S. military special operation forces were recently in the remote town of Gode in Ethiopia. And I want you to see some of these pictures. They came across two little cheetah cubs that clearly had been abused.
Let's stop for a minute and remind people, there are about 1,400 U.S. troops in the Horn of Africa in a counterterrorism task force. They move around the area, conducting good works, digging wells, building schools, helping people.
They came to this town. They found these cheetah cubs tied up, abused. The man was making the cubs fight for the enjoyment of local people. He didn't want to give them up. The troops tried to treat the cubs, give them medicine and food. But now the Ethiopian government has asked the State Department to ask the military to stage a cheetah rescue.
And, indeed, we are told, in the next few days, U.S. special forces will be returning to this town with the agreement of the Ethiopians, and they will move those two little cheetah cubs to a refuge center, so they can get the proper treatment and they can live happily ever after -- Ali.
VELSHI: It -- it's awful cute. Is anybody bringing up the question about a stretched U.S. military dealing with cheetah cubs?
STARR: Ah, but let's remember, this is a counterterrorism task force. And one of the things they do is try and build good relations with both the governments and the people out there.
And now that the Ethiopian government has come to the U.S. and asked for this help, U.S. military is moving in.
VELSHI: Barbara Starr, Pentagon correspondent, thanks so much for that.
We're back on the air at 7:00 p.m. Eastern, just one hour from now.
And be sure to join Wolf Blitzer for "LATE EDITION" this Sunday at 11:00 a.m. Eastern -- among his guests, the Iraqi national security adviser.
Christine Romans is in for Lou Dobbs tonight in New York City, starting right now.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, GUEST HOST, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT": Thank you, Ali.
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