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Schwarzenegger Denies Clemency for Stanley "Tookie" Williams; Bush Administration Hopes Voting in Iraq will Bolster Support in U.S.; Democrats say Bush Hasn't Adequately Outlined Exit Strategy

Aired December 12, 2005 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Susan. To our viewers, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM where new pictures and information from around the world are arriving all the time.
Happening now, breaking news in California. It's 1:00 p.m. in Sacramento where the governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, has just denied clemency to Stanley "Tookie" Williams.

The convicted murderer and gang founder now just hours away from execution. Also this hour, President Bush's poll numbers get pumped up a little bit. It's 4:00 p.m. here in Washington and we have a new survey on Mr. Bush and how you think he's doing his job.

And Iraqi politics at a crossroads. It's midnight in Baghdad where voting begin there. The president's public relations campaign is continuing here.

I'm Wolf Blitzer, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

Up first, the breaking news from California. Only moments ago, the governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, said the facts of the Stanley "Tookie" Williams case just don't justify blocking his execution. Schwarzenegger announced his decision just moments ago, soon after a federal appeals court also refused to intervene.

We've got lots of reporters, lots of analysts trying to assess what exactly is going on.

First, let's read the statement that the governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, issued following his decision not to grant clemency to the convicted murder, Stanley "Tookie" Williams. Here's the statement, at least the part of it, the relevant part that the governor released.

"Clemency cases are always difficult and this one is no exception. After studying the evidence, searching the history, listening to the arguments and wrestling with the profound consequences, I could find no justification for granting clemency."

Schwarzenegger goes on to say, "The facts do not justify overturning the jury's verdict or the decisions of the courts in this case."

We're following the story with our reporters on the scene. Also, Roger Cossack, a legal analyst for ESPN who's been following this case, as well. Roger, between now and midnight California time, 3:00 a.m. here on the East Coast, are there any other possible opportunities for this execution to be stayed?

ROGER COSSACK, FORMER DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Well, Wolf, there is a petition before the California Supreme Court of right now, which is really pretty much old wine in a new bottle. It's asking to be reviewed what "Tookie" Williams' lawyers claim are inadequacies in his trial: evidence that was not presented before the court.

I think the chances of the Supreme Court stepping in are very small, and I think Mr. Williams has about run out of options.

BLITZER: It looks like it is. Roger, stand by for a second. Our Chris Lawrence is on the scene for us in Sacramento. Chris, set the scene for us. Tell us what has just happened.

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the governor has finally released his decision, Wolf, based on reading the material, looking at the history, and hearing from all sides. He has decided, as you mentioned, not to grant clemency to "Tookie" Williams.

It's been a chaotic scene outside the prison as the word came down here recently.

I think when you look further at the statement, you hit on the main points. But when you look further into that statement and read through, we get a much better idea of how the governor came to this decision.

He referenced several things. He talked about the four murders that Williams was convicted of. He said Williams has been convicted of those murders. He talked about the timing of the motel murders, the three people who owned the motel being murdered just two weeks after the convenience store clerk was killed.

In the statement, he said, quote, "it showed a callous disregard for human life." He also talked about evidence showing that Williams may have been planning a prison break after his initial arrest.

He also touched on some of the things that supporters have argued showed a redemptive quality to his life in recent years. He talked about the President's Call to Service Award. He talked about the Nobel Peace Prize nominations and said, quote, "these do not have persuasive weight in this clemency request."

Again, he is looking at some of the things that people have argued should have been factored in, that should have been considered, when considering whether Williams should get clemency.

He also says things that were not there, that perhaps the governor may have been looking for and did not see. He says also in this statement, one would expect more explicit and direct reference to the by-product of his former lifestyle, talking about co-founding the Crips street gang, talking about expecting more explicit and direct reference to the by-product of that lifestyle in Williams' writings and some sort of apology. But in the statement, it says he felt that only existed in innuendo, never a direct reference. And he also said, when talking about this that the one thing that would be the clearest indication of a true and full redemption would be an apology, would be admittance of guilt and an apology. I

In the statement he's saying, without an apology, there can be no full redemption. But Williams' supporters are saying he refuses to apologize for crimes he still says he did not commit.

BLITZER: Chris, you're outside San Quentin prison where he's scheduled to die in only a few hours. Midnight, 12:01 a.m., out on the West Coast, 3:01 here on the East Coast. I suspect there are still a lot of supporters, celebrities and others out there where you are.

LAWRENCE: Yes, he visited -- the Reverend Jesse Jackson visited --with Mr. Williams briefly just literally right before this decision came down. There are supporters out here and there, people with signs walking around in support of "Tookie" Williams.

It's starting to calm down a little bit now. We believe that calm closer to the deadline around 6:00 tonight, a lot of this area will begin to clear out and the last visitors will be asked to leave.

BLITZER: I suspect also, Chris, it was a long shot that the governor would offer clemency to "Tookie" Williams. Although he had repeatedly been quoted as saying he was guardedly optimistic, he was hopeful that would happen.

What was the sense out in California where you were? Was it always widely assumed that Schwarzenegger would allow this execution to go forward?

LAWRENCE: If you look back at history and you think it's been almost 40 years since a California governor has granted clemency to a death row inmate, you would say that history was not on the side of "Tookie" Williams.

Yet, there was nothing usual about this case, and no matter how you cut it, Wolf, this would be a very political decision. You can say that it is a very personal one that each governor will have to wrestle with, and it's obvious that Mr. Schwarzenegger came fairly close to the deadline before actually announcing this decision, but it has political ramifications.

There is a tremendous amount of support for the idea of granting "Tookie" Williams clemency, that he is worth more alive than he is dead, that he has shown redemptive qualities. On the other hand, there is some support for people who say he has committed these crimes, he deserves to pay for them in accordance with the law.

BLITZER: Chris, stand by. We're going to get back to you shortly. Roger Cossack is still with us on the phone, the legal analyst. Roger, walk us through what is likely to happen now over the next several hours. COSSACK: Well, "Tookie" Williams will receive his last visitors and I suppose his last meal if he asks for it. And then they'll come a time, probably somewhere in the early hours, 8:00, 9:00, 10:00, perhaps, where they will clear everyone out.

If he wishes to speak with a priest or whoever his religious leader may be, that will be available to him. And then the grim task goes on, wolf. You know, they bring him in. He's put on a gurney. The narcotic is administered to him. And he dies.

BLITZER: Were you surprised that Governor Schwarzenegger rejected clemency?

COSSACK: Not really. As your reporter just said, it's been a long time since clemency has been handed out by a governor. "Tookie" Williams is a man who, you know, of many parts. And clearly, in some ways, presents a very compelling argument for clemency if you are going to grant clemency.

But I think that it was hit right on the head earlier, one of his problems, if not the most significant problem, was he just refused to admit that he was guilty and he refused to take the next step and talk about the families and talk about the sorrow.

His opponents, the opponents of clemency kept saying, you know, he never even mentions the names of the people that were killed. They would keep repeating the names and they were, I think, two or three Asians and someone else who just were innocent people who were gunned down.

So the opponents kept saying, you know what? These are people. Let me tell you who these people are. They may not have been nominated for any awards, but they did nothing but get murdered. So it was a very difficult situation. And politically it's a very difficult situation. So, the short answer is no, I wasn't surprised, Wolf.

BLITZER: The argument though that his supporters have been making that, yes, he never apologized, he never expressed remorse insisting all along that he never committed these crimes, that he was falsely convicted. But the good that he had done over the years, writing these children's books, urging young people not to join gangs, talking about the dangers of gangs, the positive things that he's widely credited with having achieved. Clearly in the mind of Arnold Schwarzenegger, certainly that was not enough to stay this execution.

COSSACK: Well, this is really a debate, in some ways, obviously, about "Tookie" Williams, but it's really a debate about capital punishment. And I think when you get right down to it, the state of California, like most of the states in this country, has capital punishment.

Capital punishment is something that is you know, if you see the statistics, most people say they're in favor of capital punishment. But when you see jury statistics, you see that less and less juries are handing out capital punishment. So it's obviously something that is discussed and talked about and debated in this country.

But California has capital punishment and I think, probably the governor looked around and besides what I told you about the fact that there was never an apology, you know, he said, if we have it, this is a man that should get it.

BLITZER: Roger Cossack, stand by. The legal analyst, Roger Cossack helping us better under the legal aspects of this decision by Arnold Schwarzenegger, denying clemency to Stanley "Tookie" Williams, 51 years old, condemned for a 1981 shooting, killing of a clerk at a convenience store, a mother, father and daughter in a motel robbery less than two weeks later.

Let's talk a little bit about the politics of this decision by Arnold Schwarzenegger. Bill Schneider is joining us right now. You spent a lot of time in California, Bill, you understand what was going on out there. Were you surprised by the Governor Schwarzenegger's decision?

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I was not. This was of course, a different decision than Governor Warner in Virginia made last week, when he commuted the death sentence of a prisoner. But there, it was a case where some of the evidence had been destroyed by a court official.

In this case, there was no additional evidence, nothing bearing on his innocence or guilt, except apparently a last-minute witness coming forth. This was mostly a case where people said he had reformed his ways and had become a different person. But the fact is, he was convicted of a terrible crime.

BLITZER: The fact also is that what the governor has done in effect is the same thing what the Ninth Circuit, the federal court based in San Francisco has done, allow this execution to go forward. And that is widely seen, as you well know, as one of the more liberal, if not the most liberal court, federal court, in the country. So he has some backing, I suppose politically for his decision.

SCHNEIDER: That's right. California has supported the death penalty, as most states do in the United States. Though he has been trying to reach out to liberals and Democrats, since his big defeat last month in that special election. There was clearly a no-win situation for him.

The city of Los Angeles was worried about some backlash, perhaps some disorder resulting from the execution and the city council has issued a very strong alert, a warning to people that this should not be in any case, in any sense, a justification for any kind of protest or violence, because they're worried about it in the city of Los Angeles.

BLITZER: All right, Bill, stand by for you, as well. I want to bring in our Jack Cafferty, he's back from his vacation. Got right into the thick of things here in THE SITUATION ROOM. Welcome back, Jack. You're watching this case together with all of us. JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, indeed. Only in America can a convicted murder be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize five times. 1979, Stanley Williams, AKA "Tookie," shot a convenience store clerk in the back with a 12-gauge shotgun twice, while the man was lying face down on the ground.

Less than two weeks later, he killed an immigrant Chinese couple and their 41-year-old daughter, while stealing less than $100. Blew part of the daughter's skull away in the process. A jury convicted him, sentenced him to death and yet he's still alive 25 years later. That's not exactly what the jury had in mind.

Now, mercifully, it looks like this long running joke will come to an end tonight. Williams has never apologized. Nobody in a state penitentiary is guilty of anything. They all claim they're innocent. His attorneys say he's been rehabilitated. He's written children's books with anti-gang messages, donated the proceeds to anti-gang community groups.

But he also founded the Crips, arguably the most violent gang in America. Now there are some Hollywood celebrities, people like Jamie Foxx think "Tookie's" a great guy and should be spared execution. I wonder how they'd feel if it had been their parents or their daughter who were murdered in cold blood. Here's the question -- should Governor Schwarzenegger have commuted "Tookie" Williams' death sentence? You can e-mail us at caffertyfile@CNN.com or CNN.com/caffertyfile.

BLITZER: Jack, thanks very much and welcome back once again. Jack's going to be with us throughout THE SITUATION ROOM. We're going to have much more on this breaking news, coming up over the next two hours. Later tonight, 7:00 p.m. Eastern, in the 7:00 p.m. Eastern hour of THE SITUATION ROOM as well.

We're following all of the ramifications from this decision by the governor to deny clemency to Stanley "Tookie" Williams.

Our other big stories we're watching today, including the president's campaign to sell his Iraq war policy. We'll release a brand new poll on the president, Iraq, much more. Is the president saying anything that Democrats want to hear? We'll get the response from Democratic Senator Jack Reed of Rhode Island, the key member of the Armed Services Committee. All that coming up. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to THE SITUATION ROOM. We're following this breaking news out of California. The governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, denying clemency to 51-year-old Stanley "Tookie" Williams, convicted of murder some 25 -- 24 years ago.

Governor Schwarzenegger saying he deserves to die, in effect, he will be executed, barring some last minute change, which very few people anticipate over the next few hours at 12:01 a.m. California time, that's at 3:01 a.m. here on the East Coast. The governor saying clemency cases are always difficult and this one is no exception. Joining us on the phone is Robert Martin. He was prosecutor who helped convict Stanley "Tookie" Williams way back when. He's joining us for some reaction. What do you make of this, Mr. Martin?

ROBERT MARTIN, PROSECUTOR, WILLIAMS CASE: Well, Wolf, I appreciate that the governor has done his homework on this case, and he also has restricted his decision, not on things outside the courtroom. The gang activities of Stanley Williams was never brought up during the trial.

And I think that the governor has done the right thing in restricting his decision to what happened at the trial and what has occurred over a quarter of a century in the courts, both federal and state. Because every aspect of this case has been examined by teams of lawyers for the defense from prominent law firms. They've scrutinized this from every angle, and they've found that the evidence is rock solid. And therefore, I think the governor has made the correct decision.

BLITZER: Some of his supporters and his legal team have insisted that some of the initial forensic evidence was in their words, sloppy. Was there any evidence though that you saw that could have raised a reasonable doubt looking back over this past quarter century?

MARTIN: I have never seen any to create a lingering doubt. James Warner, the firearms expert, looked at a number of test shells and found that one of those test shells from Stanley's shotgun under the comparative microscope had a unique pattern that referred to his shotgun and no other.

BLITZER: What about the good deeds that he has done in more recent years, writing of these books, trying to discourage young people from joining violent gangs. Should that have been a factor?

MARTIN: I abroad those activities. And we only have anecdotal evidence as to what effect they have because the "Los Angeles Times" this morning carries the story that gang warfare and violence is up 30 percent in the last year.

My question should--I think, we should look at is there any moral equivalency between co-authoring some children's books and the senseless murder of four people in cold blood?

BLITZER: I guess one of the arguments that I've heard by his supporters that have been made, if by his writing, his words, he can save at least one or two lives by discouraging people to join gangs then maybe it would be worth it to let him stay in San Quentin for the rest of his life without the possibility of parole.

MARTIN: Well, the books will live on. We have many authors who have died and their books are still in print. And if they have any good effect that can continue. So I don't believe that is a conclusive argument. BLITZER: You will sleep easily. You will sleep comfortably knowing that everything you did in prosecuting Stanley "Tookie" Williams was the right thing or do you in your mind have even a scintilla of doubt that perhaps he should live?

MARTIN: No, I have no doubt whatsoever. And the jury didn't either. And therefore, I think that we have to have confidence in the judicial system. We have to really feel respect for the judges who have looked at this case and have affirmed his guilt and the conviction at every turn.

If we don't have confidence in the overall judicial system, I think then we're no longer a country of laws.

BLITZER: One final question before I let you go, Mr. Martin. As far as you know, is there any possibility whatsoever between now and 12:01 a.m. Pacific time that would stay this execution?

MARTIN: I think your opinion is better than mine, Wolf. They've undoubtedly gone to the California Supreme Court, to the Ninth Circuit and to the United States Supreme Court. Whether those courts will continue to look at anything, I really don't know.

BLITZER: Robert Martin was the prosecutor of Stanley "Tookie" Williams. Thanks very much, Mr. Martin for joining us.

And to our viewers, we're going to stay on top of the story. We're going to watch every step of the way. We'll go back out to San Quentin to Sacramento to Los Angeles get reaction from across the board.

Stanley "Tookie" Williams, barring some last minute reversal will be executed, lethal injection, 12:01 a.m. Pacific time later tonight.

We're also watching what is happening in Iraq. Much more of our coverage coming up. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

It's been about 45 minutes since the governor of California, Arnold Schwarzenegger, denied clemency to Stanley "Tookie" Williams. He's scheduled now to die at 12:01 a.m. out on the West Coast, 3:01 a.m. here on the East Coast.

Governor Schwarzenegger saying, after studying the evidence, searching the history, listening to the arguments and wrestling with the profound consequences, "I could find no justification for granting clemency."

We're going to continue to monitor this story. We're getting reaction from all over the United States. Much more on this coming up.

But let's check some other news we're following in the meantime. The Bush administration certainly is hoping that the newest round of voting in Iraq will help bolster the president's support here at home. Early voting began today for patients, soldiers and prisoners in Iraq before Thursday's parliamentary election.

Iraq has closed its borders and imposed an overnight curfew in some areas for the election period in hopes of preventing insurgent attacks and any disruption of the vote.

President Bush's likening Iraq's struggle to building a democracy in the United States during its turbulent beginnings. He spoke today in Philadelphia, the third in a series of speeches designed to promote his Iraq policy.

Our White House correspondent Dana Bash is standing by. Our congressional correspondent Ed Henry is up on Capitol Hill.

Dana, let's go to you first.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, the president did give a bit of an American history lesson while talking in Philadelphia today saying that it takes time in Iraq comparing that to the time it took in quite a lot of detail here in America more than 200 years ago.

But what was perhaps most noteworthy about his appearance was not in his prepared speech.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH (voice-over): For 38 minutes, the president mixed optimism with realism, casting the Iraqi elections as a first but critical step that could allow some U.S. troops to come home.

At what appeared to be the end, a sip of water and a surprise.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I thought I might answer some questions.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to know why you and others in your administration invoke 9/11 as justification for the invasion of Iraq...

BUSH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ...when no respected journalist or other experts confirm that such a link existed?

BASH: To that the president said the attacks taught him to ignore no threats and reprised an old defense in the face of new questions about the war.

BUSH: And I made a tough decision. And knowing what I know today, I would make the decision again. Removing Saddam Hussein makes this world a better place and America a safer country. BASH: This speech is one of a series designed to turn around public opinion on Iraq, as well as Mr. Bush's own low standing with the American people.

A new CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll shows the president's approval rating is now 42 percent, up four points since last month. But critics even within his own party say a major Bush problem still is the appearance he is arrogant and isolated, afraid to face tough questions about the war. As part of Q and A here to answer that, the president cited what aides later called an unofficial number of Iraqis killed, but added unsolicited the U.S. casualty figure he's criticized for avoiding.

BUSH: How many Iraqi citizens have died in this war? I would say 30,000, more or less, have die died as a result of the initial incursion and the ongoing violence against Iraqis. We've lost about 2,140 of our own troops in Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: Now in terms of this week's Iraqi elections, the president was careful to say they that won't be perfect, and certainly not the end of the process. Again, this speech, Wolf, part of a delicate balance the president is trying to hit back at critics who are saying that speedy troop withdrawal is important, but still trying to moment the idea that there is progress in Iraq.

BLITZER: Dana, that was the first time I heard the president, I think almost any senior administration official, throw out that number of 30,000, although it's been floating out there by other nongovernmental agencies. What are White House officials saying behind the scenes? How did the president come up with this number?

BASH: The newspapers. Several senior officials say that this is not an official number, that this is something that the president knows about simply from being briefed by his aides and by associates, but also by reading the papers, because that is what public accounts say. But they were careful to say it is not an official account.

BLITZER: Dana Bash, reporting for us from the White House. Dana, thank you very much.

After three Iraqi speeches, many Democrats say Mr. Bush still hasn't said enough about how and when U.S. troops can start coming home. Let's go to Capitol Hill right now. Our congressional correspondent Ed Henry with that part of the story -- Ed?

ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, after days of being hammered with questions about how Democrats are divided on what to do next in Iraq, they're now trying to shift the focus on what they agree on, where they're united.

Number one, they believe the president has mismanaged the war, and secondly, they say most Democrats agree on the fact that instead of pushing and pumping up his public relations effort, the president should be spending more time trying to train Iraqi security forces faster.

So today, while we heard from a cross-section of Democrats again, once again, like John Murtha reiterating his call for a quick pullout of U.S. troops, Senate Democrats who believe that's not a good idea, all across the board, they were stressing that it's time for the president to step up the effort to train the Iraqi security forces faster. Here's Democratic Senator Carl Levin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: The president today made a wishy- washy statement in an area which requires clarity, certainty, strength, and that is we must tell the Iraqis that we have done our part, we've done more than our part. Now it's up to you to get your political house in order.

That requires changes in the constitution by the president's own acknowledgement. This isn't something which you should possibly do, this is something which you need to do, which you must do, or else the United States has got to reconsider its presence in Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY: And Democrats now complaining loudly about the fact on Wednesday, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was supposed to come up to the Hill for a classified briefing with all 100 senators in a secure room in the Capitol.

That's now been changed by Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist. It's going to be in a non-secure room. Democrats charging that's because they don't want Secretary Rice to face tough questions on classified matters like alleged secret prisons in eastern Europe. Senate Majority Leader Frist telling me today that's nonsense.

But I can tell you I've now got a letter back from Senator Reid to Senator Frist that he's just sending across the capital saying he believes this is because Republicans do not want to be held accountable. They want to protect Secretary Rice. As you can see, the fireworks will continue this week, as it has in recent weeks, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Ed. Thank you very much. No doubt about that. Ed Henry on Capitol Hill.

The president and our new poll numbers, that's a story we're watching, as well. After weeks of losing ground, is Mr. Bush on a little bit stronger footing right now? Let's check in with our senior political analyst Bill Schneider.

What do the new numbers tell us about the president's overall job approval rating?

SCHNEIDER: Well, as Dana Bash just reported, the numbers are up a little bit for the president. His job approval has gone from 38 percent last month to 42 percent this month. Is it because he's consolidating his base among Republicans? No. And he's not making any grounds with his critics either.

What he's done is made gains with independents. Those are the crucial swing voters who are not on either side of the country's deep partisan divide. Now, we asked -- in our poll, we asked Bush's critics and supporters how strongly they feel about the president's job performance.

Twenty-two percent of Americans say they strongly approve of President Bush's handling of his job. But nearly twice as many, 43 percent, strongly disapprove of the president's job. That is a very, very big difference. The president has a lot more hard-core critics than he has ardent supporters.

BLITZER: Bill, where is the president gaining ground?

SCHNEIDER: Well, there's a little bit of a gain here on the economy. Some improvement, 40 percent say they now approve the way he's handling the economy. That's up a few points since November. That's Bush's highest number on the economy since June. Although I add, with 58 percent disapproving his performance on the economy, he has some way to go before he turns those numbers around.

BLITZER: What about the war in Iraq? How's he doing as far as that specific issue according to this latest CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll?

SCHNEIDER: Well, all we have is the president's rating on foreign affairs, and that is up five points. Suggests that President Bush may be making some headway with his initiative in Iraq, explaining his strategy for victory there.

What we're seeing is a slight improvement since last month for this president across the board with terrorism and international affairs continuing to be the president's strongest issues, domestic issues are still the place where he's running weakest.

BLITZER: All right, Bill, thank you very much. Bill Schneider, our senior political analyst. Democrats have been quick to respond to the president's latest Iraq speech. Today no exception. They've been responding throughout these past several days.

Senator Jack Reed of Rhode Island is on the Armed Services Committee. He's now joining us here in THE SITUATION ROOM.

Senator Reed, thanks very much for joining us. Let me play a little clip from what the president said, then we'll get your reaction. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Enemy's got one weapon. You see, they can't defeat us militarily. What they can do is they can, and will, kill innocent people in the hopes of trying to get the United States of America to leave the battlefield early. The only way we can lose is if we lose our nerve. And they know that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: It sounds like he's referring to some, shall we say, the more liberal members of your party, the Democratic Party, the Howard Deans, the chairman, the Nancy Pelosis. What do you make of what the president said?

SEN. JACK REED (R), RHODE ISLAND: Well, I think the president understands that this is not just a military struggle. There's a political struggle going on in Iraq, and we have to make political and economic progress. But there's also an issue of public support here in the United States. And that support, frankly, is very concerned about the president's policies.

There is a real, I think, reflected in the polls but reflected in everyone I meet around the country, a concern that he doesn't have a plan, that he hasn't articulated how long we'll be there, the course for our engagement there, and frankly what will be the result. These speeches are designed to do that, but so far, I don't think he's laid out in some detail enough to assuage the American public as to where he's going, where we should go.

BLITZER: But you agree with him. I assume you agree with him that the United States simply can't pull out unilaterally and assume the situation will take care of itself.

REED: Well, we can't pull out unilaterally. What we can't also do is give a blank check to the Iraqi people and their political leaders. We have to make it clear they have to assume the lead faster than they're doing right now.

And we also have to help them in terms of creating the kind of governmental capabilities that they lack. And we've got a host of things to do so that we can leave, and I think the American public don't want to leave prematurely, but don't want to stay forever. And frankly, we can't sustain that given our forces.

We have to have, I believe, a phased redeployment of our troops based upon the conditions on the ground. It's the responsibility of the president to sketch out those conditions and let the people know generally how long we'll stay and how much it will cost us both in terms of resources and, more importantly, in terms of our troops.

BLITZER: Senator Reed, listen to what Democratic Congressman John Murtha said yesterday as far as his thoughts are on this Iraq situation are concerned. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN MURTHA (D), PENNSYLVANIA: We are the enemy. That's the thing. And I go out and visit these young folks almost every week. And I want to save every one of them we can. I don't want them to be there one day more than necessary. And to me, right now is the time to re-deploy.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BLITZER: Like you, he's very knowledgeable on the military, very close to the military, spends a lot of time with soldiers and Marines. Do you agree with him?

REED: Well, I don't think a fixed deadline is going to serve our purposes, but I think he is expressing the deep concern of the American people. And also, he's expressing the reality that our military forces cannot sustain indefinitely a commitment of 160,000 troops in Iraq with all the costs both in terms of not just budgets, but in terms of wear and tear on troops and their families.

I think he's expressing that quite graphically. I think we have to have a change in course, and hopefully the president is making that change, so we don't give the Iraqis an open-ended commitment. We require them to step up, and we help them to step up. But I think Congressman Murtha is expressing the deep concerns of many, many Americans around the country.

BLITZER: One final question, Senator Reed. How do you feel about Senator Joe Lieberman and his ardent support for the administration's Iraq stance?

REED: Well, Joe has been consistent in his support of the president from the very beginning. So I'm not surprised he would stick to us. But he joined us, and I think significantly so, when this Senate passed with 79 votes a strong resolution, a strong amendment, on the authorization bill that asked the president basically to make 2006 a year of transition, to begin to shift more dramatically the burden to the Iraqis, and to do those things we have to do so that we can re-deploy our forces.

So I don't know how far away he is from us. I think his comments are more in line with his thinking from the very beginning. And I'll grant him that, but I think together, we can do more to reshape the president's policy, and I hope we're doing that.

BLITZER: Senator Jack Reed, Democrat of Rhode Island. Thanks, Senator, very much for joining us.

REED: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: And let's get back to our top story. We're watching the news out of California. The breaking story that we've been reporting now for almost an hour, the fate of Stanley "Tookie" Williams. The governor of California, Arnold Schwarzenegger, denying clemency to the 51-year-old convicted murder.

When we come back, we'll speak live with Stanley "Tookie" Williams' attorney. Much more coming up on this and other news. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

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BLITZER: Welcome back. We're following the story out of California. Stanley "Tookie" Williams denied clemency by the governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger. He's scheduled to be executed by lethal injection 12:01 a.m. Pacific time tonight, that's 3:01 a.m. here on the East Coast.

Joining us now from California is Jan Handzlik. He's one of the attorneys who's been representing Stanley Williams. What's your immediate reaction, Mr. Handzlik?

JAN HANDZLIK, ATTORNEY FOR STANLEY "TOOKIE" WILLIAMS: We're deeply disappointed that the governor has rejected the clemency request. We believe we stated a good case, but apparently not good enough.

BLITZER: What happens now? Is there anything else you can do before 12:01 that will allow Stanley "Tookie" Williams the opportunity to live?

HANDZLIK: The Ninth Circuit has denied our request for a stay and we are proceeding to the U.S. Supreme Court. So we're hopeful that one of the justices on the court will give Mr. Williams a full and fair hearing on the allegations the we have raised.

BLITZER: Do you know who that justice on the U.S. Supreme Court would be, the one responsible for your jurisdiction?

HANDZLIK: Justice Kennedy would be the justice, I believe.

BLITZER: And barring a decision from Justice Kennedy to offer a last second stay, if you will, is there any other legal action out in California that's still out there?

HANDZLIK: No. The U.S. Supreme Court would be our last hope.

BLITZER: What do you think Justice Kennedy is going to do?

HANDZLIK: Well, I wouldn't want to predict. Obviously, the other courts have turned down our request for a stay and for our new habeas corpus petition. We wouldn't want to predict.

BLITZER: Why didn't Stanley "Tookie" admit that he killed these four individuals and beg for mercy and apologize and then cite all of the good things he did with the writing of his books?

HANDZLIK: Mr. Williams has consistently maintained his innocence. He says he didn't do it. And under those circumstances, some sort of last minute clemency conversion wouldn't have been looked upon favorably, anyway.

BLITZER: Even if he would have said, "You know what, I now confess. I've denied my guilt all these years. I now confess. I apologize. I beg for mercy. And I promise to the rest of my days, life in prison without the possibility of parole, to try to do as good as good as I can in discouraging young people to join gangs"?

HANDZLIK: Wolf, I don't deny the fact that that would be a powerful argument, a great statement for him to make. But he looks it upon it as a matter of conviction and character. He says did he not commit these murders. And for him to falsely say that he did in order to gain some sort of advantage now really should be looked upon as his strength of character rather than a negative factor.

BLITZER: One of our producers says that Justice O'Connor really is in charge for California out there and she's the one who's going to have to make this decision as opposed to Justice Kennedy. Are you sure about Justice Kennedy?

HANDZLIK: It's Justice O'Connor. I'm sorry. I was thinking of the fact that she has retired, but she hasn't left.

BLITZER: Justice O'Connor it is, then. So it's going to be up to Sandra Day O'Connor, one of her last acts before she does formally retire to make this decision. That's the information. That's correct, is that right?

HANDZLIK: Yes, that is correct.

BLITZER: All right. Our producer Bill Meers (ph), who covers the Supreme Court for us, had accurate information. Jan Handzlik, thanks very much for joining us.

HANDZLIK: My pleasure.

BLITZER: Let's go to our Zain Verjee. She's back from a few days off as well at the CNN Center in Atlanta. She's following a story out of Chicago. Zain, what are you picking up?

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, we're hearing that two construction workers have been killed on the south side of Chicago. It seems what happened is this. A construction crane dropped its load onto a roof of this building that was under construction.

What happened then was the load was so heavy, it pushed down onto the fourth floor, and that collapsed onto the third, killing two workers. There are firefighters still on the scene. There you see from some tape we received moments ago from an affiliate, the snow covering the roof of that building.

There was a large gaping hole indicating where the accident occurred. We know of two fatalities, as I say. We don't know how much people have been injured. Emergency crews are still on the scene. We don't know any more details, but we will bring it to you as we get it. Two fatalities in that -- Wolf?

BLITZER: All right, Zain, thank you very much. Zain Verjee reporting.

Coming up, we'll get back to our breaking news story of this hour. Stanley "Tookie" Williams will go into the politics over his life. Stanley "Tookie" Williams denied clemency by with governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger. He's scheduled to die 12:01 a.m. Pacific time tonight. Did political considerations play a role in the governor's decision? We'll assess that.

Also, just after Hurricane Katrina, FEMA ordering some 20,000 mobile homes for hurricane evacuees. So why are almost all of them empty? Certainly not because there are no evacuees who need them. We'll tell you what's happening in the 7:00 p.m. hour of THE SITUATION ROOM. Stay with us.

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BLITZER: Today in our "Strategy Session," President Bush delivers an address on political progress in Iraq. Are the president's speeches having an impact? Is this a winning strategy to turn the poll numbers around?

Also, the governor of California, Arnold Schwarzenegger deciding within the past hour against clemency for Stanley "Tookie" Williams. Will there be any political fallout?

Joining us, radio talk show host and author of "How the Republicans Stole Christmas," Bill Press, and Terry Jeffrey, the editor of "Human Events," conservative weekly publication. Thanks very much to both of you for joining us.

You spent a lot of time in California, at least you have over the years. What do you make of the governor's decision to deny clemency to Stanley "Tookie" Williams?

BILL PRESS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I think it proves that Arnold Schwarzenegger is a girly man after all, Wolf. I think this is a cowardly decision on his part, even though the courageous decision would have been to do what another Republican governor, George Ryan did, of Illinois, which is not only to commute the death sentence of "Tookie" Williams, but everybody on death row, because there are too many questions about the death penalty.

I think Arnold Schwarzenegger went along with the lynch mob, which is always the easy thing and the cowardly thing to do.

BLITZER: The last governor of California to offer clemency to someone on death row was Ronald Reagan when he was governor of California. Did you know that, Terry?

TERRY JEFFREY, HUMANEVENTSONLINE.COM: No, I did not know that. I think there's nothing wrong with a governor offering clemency, even to someone who's guilty. I think there's a lot of evidence that Governor Schwarzenegger looked at this carefully. It was a conscientious decision. The fact of the matter is, people in California are overwhelmingly in favor of the death penalty.

And unless you think there's an absolute moral bar to executing a convicted killer, which I don't think there is, the people of California don't think there is, clearly Governor Schwarzenegger doesn't think there is, then "Tookie" Williams was a candidate for that penalty given the crimes that he committed that to this day he refused to admit.

PRESS: You know, Wolf, I do believe the death penalty is not only unconstitutional, but immoral, and Terry and I disagree on that. But politically, you know, I think Arnold ran as he was a different kind of politician. He's going to bring fresh face, new think, he's going to be different. And he's proved to be the same old, same old, taking money from the special interests, in the pocket of big corporations. And this death penalty...

BLITZER: ... this man was convicted of killing four individuals in cold blood, a family of three, then another individual. The brutal crimes that a lot of courts, including a very liberal Ninth Circuit federal court out in San Francisco, all of which have sustained the verdict.

PRESS: I'm not here to defend "Tookie" Williams. I mean, his crimes were abhorrent. I think what is that we as a country ought to be thinking about --we're a civilized nation that are still torturing prisoners and executing criminals. I think it's immoral.

But again, politically, I think that Arnold could have done something different here and showed that he's not just like every other politician. He missed an opportunity.

JEFFREY: Well, Bill ought to get someone to run for governor of California as a Democrat saying that he believes the death penalty is immoral and that for even people like "Tookie" Williams, it should not be used.

California has had referendums on the death penalty, people have spoken on it, and Governor Schwarzenegger has never said he thought it was an immoral punishment. I can understand if he did, where he might say, "OK, I'm going to give this guy clemency."

PRESS: You're right on your facts. I think a politician should lead and not follow the mob.

BLITZER: Politically speaking, if Schwarzenegger wants to seek reelection next year, do you think this decision that he made today will help him or hurt him?

PRESS: I don't think it'll have much of an impact. Terry's right. Most of the people of California approve the death penalty, support the death penalty. They expected him to do this. Again, I think he just missed an opportunity to show some leadership.

BLITZER: Do you think it'll help him or hurt him?

JEFFREY: I think it would have hurt him if he had gone the other way. I don't think it'll help him much.

BLITZER: The whole debate, though, over the death penalty, I guess there will be some impetus as a result of this.

PRESS: Well, I think so. And by the way, I -- here's the problem that I have with this "Tookie" Williams case. Again, I hold no grief for "Tookie" Williams. But I think what this proves is how uneven the death penalty is applied. Why are we talking about him? Because you had Jesse Jackson out there, you had Snoop Dogg out there, you had all these other movie stars.

What about all these other poor shlubs (ph) on death penalty around the country? Nobody knows their name. Nobody knows anything about them. So why should we be talking about "Tookie" Williams? JEFFREY: They're not poor shlubs. They're people who have been convicted under due process of capital crimes. And the fact of the matter is, you have murder after murder after murder after murder in the state of California where people don't get justice. The truth is, justice too little is rendered in California, not too much.

PRESS: Thirteen people in the state of Illinois alone under George Ryan were found to be on death row, convicted of crimes they did not commit. So there's still a lot of questions, Terry. The fact that they're there does not mean they're guilty.

JEFFREY: But if "Tookie" was innocent, he should be let out of jail. It shouldn't be commuted to life in prison. If he's guilty, he should be executed. That's a appropriate and just punishment.

BLITZER: All right. Terry Jeffrey, thanks very much. Bill Press, thanks to you as well. Still to come, clemency denied. "Tookie" Williams, a convicted killer who spent much of his death row time working against violence. Should the governor Arnold Schwarzenegger have commuted his death sentence? We'll hear what you think? Jack Cafferty standing by with your e-mail. Stay with us.

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BLITZER: Let's led up to New York and Jack Cafferty. He's standing by with "The Cafferty File" -- Jack?

CAFFERTY: Thanks, Wolf. The question is, should Governor Schwarzenegger have commuted "Tookie" Williams' death sentence. Getting a lot of mail.

Marilyn writes, "He murdered in cold blood. Commuting his sentence gives a message you can murder in cold blood as long as you perform a series of redeeming actions subsequently. Wrong."

Mike in Mississagua, Ontario, "No, and I'm glad he didn't. Not only won't he accept responsibility, but the gang he fostered has spread like a cancer to even our little corner of the world. Not only his victims' families, but thousands of innocent people have been scarred by the scourge of his followers."

Rocky in San Antonio, Texas: "I don't care of "Tookie" Williams wrote the Encyclopedia Britannica. As long as there's the death penalty in this country, he seems to have been the perfect candidate for it. I'm just sorry his victims' families had to wait 26 years for him to receive the punishment."

Larry writes, "It's absolutely ridiculous that Stanley "Tookie" Williams was not granted clemency. I think this is definitely an issue of race. I mean, really. Who wants to keep alive that discourages other black males from a life of crime?"

And Jasper in Los Angeles: ""Tookie"'s a legend here in L.A. That's how it is. He helped many kids like me, and I thank him for trying to do good with the years left in his life."

BLITZER: All right, Jack, thanks very much. Jack, we're going to get back to you momentarily.

It's 5:00 p.m. here in Washington, and you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where news and information from around the world arrive in one place at the same time.

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