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The Situation Room
Seaplane Crashes Off Coast of Miami Beach; Bush: Wiretaps Without Warrants Will Continue
Aired December 19, 2005 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: And to our viewers, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time. Standing by, CNN reporters across the United States and around the world to bring you the day's top stories.
Happening now. It's 7:00 p.m. in Miami where a seaplane with 20 people onboard goes down just off the beach, before horrified onlookers. A desperate rescue effort under way gives way to a recovery operation.
Here in Washington, President Bush defends domestic spying saying the wiretaps without warrants will continue. He gets strong support from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. She joins me for a special interview this hour.
And it's 3:00 a.m. in Iraq. Saddam Hussein had plans for a getaway from his spider hole. We'll tell you what he hoped to find when he left his hiding place. I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
We begin with that still developing story, the crash of a small plane in the waters around Miami Beach, Florida. CNN's John Zarrella standing by in Miami Beach. But let's go to CNN's Tom Foreman. He's got the latest.
Tom?
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, let's get a sense of what's going on down there. What happened, in fact, was a terrible moment for many people apparently going on vacation. Conflicting reports from people on the ground of what they saw but no matter how you look at it, a terrible accident that now has to be investigated.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FOREMAN (voice-over): Crews in the water off Miami Beach after a frightening scene of a plane in distress.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The plane was flying pretty low next to the freight ship and it was a little bit loud. We thought it was an interesting picture, whatever. I didn't take a picture. It goes to the peer and heard it blow up. And I saw two pieces and I went down into the water.
FOREMAN: The small seaplane had just departed Miami bound for the Bahamas when it went down. There were no survivors.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of the bodies have been recovered.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nineteen people onboard?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nineteen passengers onboard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many were crew?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nineteen passengers on board. My understanding we don't have the manifest in our hands but it is alleged that there is 17 passengers and two crew members.
FOREMAN: Another witness described watching the deadly descent in horror.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I seen a plane coming across, coming through Government Cut, make a left-hand turn. Wing came off. Exploded.
FOREMAN: Government Cut is the name of this channel used by cargo and cruise ships to sail past the popular South Beach neighborhood into the Port of Miami. And the place where much of the planes wreckage is now strewn. Miami's fire chief says the crews did all they could to search for and save potential survivors.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They made a gallant effort. They did the best they could in order to get in the water as quickly as possible. There was a quick response. Unfortunately, their efforts did not result in any survivors.
FOREMAN: The route is popular one for many people wanting to travel between Florida and the Bahamas. The plane was operated by Chalk's Ocean Airways.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOREMAN: Obviously, investigators will have to figure out if there was some sort of engine failure or explosion upon that plane. What we do know is that taking off in position, it could have hit the water somewhere between 150 and 180 miles per hour. Wolf?
BLITZER: All right. Tom, thanks very much. Tom Foreman reporting.
Let's get a sense of the scene of the crash. For that, we'll turn to John Zarrella. He's in Miami Beach. John, we just got a still photo. I want to show our viewers, this taken on a cell phone by a 14-year-old boy. You can see the smoke, the trail coming in. Chalk's Ocean Airways plane. Must be devastating where you are.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Wolf, we are literally where I'm standing is the southern end of Miami Beach, the very south end on the beach, on that white sand. And you can see in the distance there, the blue lights of the police boats, the coast guard boats and there is a coast guard helicopter. We can see in the distance with his search light on the water. The number of people confirmed dead, 19. There may well have been a 20th person on board. A little bit of confusion. The airline themselves telling us earlier today that it was 18 passengers and two crew members. Then we were told the manifest listed 17 passengers and two.
So a little bit up in the air on that but either way it is a terrible tragedy here on South Beach and you can see as Tom said in his piece, that is Government Cut back there and there's a jetty out there and this plane went down just inside of the jetty. That, of course, a breakwater for those big cruise ships which is, of course, presenting a problem tonight for thousands of people here because the cruise ships are stuck inside at the Port of Miami and others are stuck outside of the Port of Miami, and can't get in because this whole area is now closed down.
You could see that in those shots, Wolf. Closed down until the NTSB can get here and move on with the investigation and recover that wreckage. Wolf?
BLITZER: John Zarrella on the scene for us. John, thank you very much. We'll continue to continue to follow this story for our viewers.
In the meantime, here in Washington, President Bush isn't making any apologies for approving secret wiretaps without a court order and he isn't planning to stop the eavesdropping, either. At his news conference over at the White House earlier today, Mr. Bush was fierce in the defense of domestic spying just hours after sounding less strident about Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I swore to uphold the laws. Do I have the legal authority to do this? And the answer is, absolutely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: But many members of Congress still are asking some serious and very tough questions about the spying program and whether Mr. Bush crossed a legal line.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RUSS FEINGOLD, (D) WI: The president does not have a leg to stand on legally. He is the president, not a king.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The president was bombarded with questions about his domestic wiretapping program during his end of the year news conference. Let's bring in our White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux. Suzanne, how are the president and his advisers justifying this decision? SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, one of the parts that they're saying is that the president said this is a very specific program, essentially, that these are calls that come from within the United States, overseas. That the person on the other line they believe to be either al Qaeda or some member of a terrorist network. This is something that he says he's reviewed with members of Congress, that he has renewed every 45 days and essentially signed on to some 30 times since this whole program began.
But he says bottom line here is he believes he has the authority through the Constitution as, of course, commander in chief during wartime and also from congressional authorization in the fight against terror against al Qaeda.
BLITZER: How is it playing out politically?
MALVEAUX: Well, this is really a political hot potato here and we expect that it is only going to get hotter. Members of Congress, Democrats are saying that the president has essentially broke the law. Republicans are reserving judgment, are calling for congressional hearings.
Now, the president, part of his argument was that he had consulted at least a dozen times with members of Congress about this program. Today, one of those members who he consulted, that the Democrat, Senator Jay Rockefeller released a letter here to the vice president that he had under seal in an envelope for two years essentially saying that he was concerned about the program.
He goes on to say that the inability to consult staff or anybody about this particular program made it very uneasy for him and that he felt he just could not endorse this. The big question, Wolf, is whether or not anyone is going to have the stomach to go through those kinds of hearings for congressional oversight.
Wolf?
BLITZER: Suzanne Malveaux reporting for us. Thank you very much. Suzanne is over at the White House.
The Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is in the hot seat herself over the president's approval of domestic spying. At the time, she was the president's national security adviser. How does she explain his actions? My one on one interview with America's top diplomat. That's coming up this hour.
And in the meantime, let's go up to New York. Jack Cafferty standing by with the "Cafferty File." Hi, Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Wolf. This all started with a "New York Times" story last Friday morning and now that newspaper is in the focus of some controversy itself. When the newspaper came out with a story about domestic eavesdropping, they said they had held it for over a year because of requests from the White House. But "Times" executive editor Bill Keller said that the paper decided to go ahead when they found that civil liberties issues loomed larger within the government than they, "The Times" had thought.
Meantime, President Bush says that because of the report, quote, "Our enemies have learned information they should not have," unquote. Mr. Bush says it damages our national security and puts citizens at risk.
So here's the question -- was it wrong for the "New York Times" to publish the eavesdropping story? Your thoughts, you can send them to caffertyfile@cnn.com. We'll read some of them in a half hour or so, Wolf.
BLITZER: I'm not sure about you but I was pretty stunned Saturday morning when the president publicly confirmed the existence of this program. It's one thing for "The New York Times" to report. It's another thing for the president of the United States to publicly acknowledge it.
CAFFERTY: And where are all these congresspeople that he said he consulted about this? I haven't seen anybody come out and say that's right, we talked this over with the president and we said this is a great idea. Have you heard any of those?
BLITZER: Well, Nancy Pelosi said she did know about it and Jay Rockefeller said he did know about it. But they suggested it wasn't consultation, they were only told about it and they were sworn to secrecy given the nature of the program.
CAFFERTY: Plus, I don't understand this attitude that just because we're having a problem in Iraq, it's OK to circumvent what our traditional procedures for these kinds of things, which is if you want to do a wiretap, you go and get a court order. You know, how come those rules suddenly don't apply. I don't quite understand that.
BLITZER: Well, you have to listen to my interview with Condoleezza Rice. Because she explains it in her own way. That's coming up this hour.
CAFFERTY: OK.
BLITZER: All right, Jack. Thanks very much.
Coming up, a developing story. Five hundred pounds of missing explosives believed to be stolen. Now police want your help to track them down.
Also, an amazing story, Saddam Hussein actually had an escape plan. Hear for the first time how he says he was planning to get out of that hole when U.S. forces tracked him down.
Plus, more of my interview with Condoleezza Rice, the one on one interview. I'll ask her those questions about government spying on American citizens. Much more coming up. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: Welcome back to THE SITUATION ROOM. We're following a developing story. Five hundred pounds of missing explosives in New Mexico. We're going to get details on that. First, though, let's go to Zain Verjee at the CNN Center in Atlanta. She's got a closer look at some other stories making news right now.
Hi, Zain.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Wolf.
Workers at two private New York City bus lines have been walking picket lines today. The head of the transport worker's union says there's time to head off a full system shut down. The strike dead line is a minute past midnight for New York's 33,000 members. The city's public transportation system is the largest in the nation. A strike would essentially affect an estimated 7 million riders.
The FBI reports more than two percent jump in the U.S. murder rate for the first half of this year. The largest increases were measured in small towns and in the Midwest. The increase comes on the heels of a dramatic 5.7 percent decline in the number of murders last year but the news isn't all bad. The FBI says rapes, arsons and assaults all fell.
A judge in South Florida's Broward County says Lionel Tate is mentally competent to face a hearing on a probation violation. Tate was sentenced to life in prison at the age of 13 for killing a six- year-old girl. The sentence was later overturned. Now at 18, he could return to face prison for life for allegedly robbing a pizza delivery man at gunpoint.
Psychologists testified today that it appeared he was faking the mental illness. Wolf?
BLITZER: Zain, thank you very much. Zain Verjee reporting.
That developing story, very alarming story out of New Mexico. About 500 pounds of explosives along with detonators have been taken from a business outside of Albuquerque. Let's bring in CNN's Chris Lawrence. He's following this story. Chris, what exactly do we know?
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, I just got off the phone with an ATF agent who described this as a substantial amount of explosives. Highly energetic. A kind not commonly used in commercial industry.
Officials tell us that thieves broke into a research facility about nine miles outside of Albuquerque, New Mexico, and the owner of the facility discovered the theft late Sunday night.
Now, they took about 150 pounds of commercial plastic explosive. The military version would be C-4. They also took 250 sheet explosives. That's a pliable material. Think of rolled dough put in the form of a sheet. And they made off with 2,500 detonators, some elect trick and 20,000 feet of explosive detonating cord.
We asked officials what kind of damage this could cause.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF DARREN WHITE, BERNALILLO CO., NEW MEXICO: If it was in the right hands, of people who know how to use it, but we are not going to speculate as to, you know, what they can do with that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAWRENCE: New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson issued a written statement saying, "I'm very concerned about the theft of dangerous explosives. I was informed about the incident last night by the New Mexico Department of Public Safety. A precautionary notice was sent out to all state agencies to report any suspicious activity. There is no specific threat. State, local and federal officials are cooperating in the investigation. ATF and the Albuquerque Police Department are leading the investigation, and it is my understanding that the explosives were stolen from a private magazine."
Now, the ATF tells me that this owner has never had any violations and he is cooperating fully. This kind of crime is not as unusual as you'd think. The ATF says there have been 38 explosive thefts so far this year. But these were military-type explosives. That's why they're worried enough to offer a $10,000 reward. Wolf?
BLITZER: Chris Lawrence reporting for us. Thank you, Chris, very much.
Still to come here in THE SITUATION ROOM, the secretary of state on the defensive about the president's approval of a secret spying program. Is there any daylight between Condoleezza Rice and the president on this story? My interview with the secretary coming up only moments away.
And Saddam Hussein's getaway plan, we have new details about the former dictator's months in hiding after the invasion of Iraq and what he was planning to do. You'll want to stick around for that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: We're getting some very disturbing video in just now. That plane that went down off of south beach in Miami Beach, Chalk Ocean Airways with 20 people on board, 19 bodies have been recovered so far.
This is it. Take a look at this. This is amateur video that we have just gotten into CNN. It shows the plane going down. Bob Francis, the former vice chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board is going to be joining us shortly but there you see it. Right there. You saw the plane go down. You see a ball of fire. Simply follow that plane.
We are going to slow this down and we're going to show it to you several times so that you could completely get the sense of what happened. Twenty people were onboard. The plane just taken off from Miami en route to Bimini in the Bahamas. It was beginning to get some altitude when all of a sudden, all of a sudden, it began to go down.
And there it is. You can see it once again right there. We'll queue it up. Kim Segal, our producer in Miami helped us get this amateur video. First of all, Kim, where did we get this video from?
KIM SEGAL, CNN PRODUCER: The people who gave us the video were actually German tourists. They were on the beach. They were taking pictures of surfers when they saw this happen and just happened to capture it on their home video.
BLITZER: And we see that plane crash into the water. Did we -- can we tell if both wings with fully intact? Have you a chance to slow down the video to get a really good sense of whether both wings were fully intact. I could see the left side of the wing, obviously, that was good. But what about the other side?
SEGAL: Actually, Wolf, we didn't have a chance to do that. As soon as we were able to transfer this tape, since it was on a German pass - European format we just sent it right to you. So we're watching it as you are right now.
BLITZER: And you see the plume of black smoke that followed the plane. Eyewitnesses had told us earlier in the day that they heard and sensed there was some sort of explosion. There it is. There you see that plane literally go into the waters off of South Beach in Miami Beach near that -- just shortly after it took off.
We don't know how high the plane got, what kind of altitude, but then it goes down very, very rapidly followed by a ball of fire. And that extensive black smoke.
Bob Francis is on the phone with us now. He is the former vice chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board. I assume, Bob, you have -- you can see your television. You can see CNN.
ROBERT FRANCIS, FORMER VICE CHAIRMAN, NTSB: Yes, I can.
BLITZER: You have seen the video we have just seen.
FRANCIS: That's truly remarkable, remarkable piece of film. And it's going to be enormously valuable to the investigators. It looks like a non, a non -- flaming -- I can't quite see because there's something in front here but there's part of the airplane that went in first looks like, you know, almost like the to totality of the airplane, but then you have this very large flaming piece coming in afterward.
You know, what that means, somebody will have to determine. But it looks like something happened very quickly and, you know, we have heard from one of the witnesses that they heard an explosion. So maybe that's a little bit more credible in my mind than it was when I first heard that.
BLITZER: They will slow this down. Every frame they will scrutinize to try to determine what happened. Could you tell and we're going to try to slow it down ourselves. Bob, could you tell if both wings were intact when that plane landed -- hit the water?
FRANCIS: I could not. You know what would be very helpful, Wolf, is if they could stop it when you're seeing both what looks like the main part of the aircraft, not on fire. And then the piece that clearly was on fire. And smoking. Coming in afterwards.
BLITZER: We are going to do that.
FRANCIS: Right there.
BLITZER: We we'll try to freeze it. You see that. There it is. You can see it right there. You can see the plane. We have stopped the video. And right behind it is a -- looks like another piece of equipment, maybe an engine, maybe a piece of the wing, maybe something else but it's clearly on fire and all of that smoke that's coming and the tail and the aftermath of this crash is coming from that -- whatever that is.
FRANCIS: Yeah.
BLITZER: Do you have any sense what that is, Bob?
FRANCIS: It just -- again, this is -- this is my quick analysis and these people at the NTSB are very, very good at this analysis but somebody just cleared the picture up a little bit. But I would say that they will be able to look at the part of the aircraft that's close to the water, not flaming, and see what's missing.
I mean, it would look like it has to be a fairly substantial piece of equipment. Whether it's an engine or whether it's wing with fuel burning. Or what. It's not just a little something that's -- that which is burning. And that, obviously, will be enormously valuable.
I mean, these are turbo prop engines as I understand the PT-6. It's a Pratt and Whitney engine. Very, very widely used in commuter airlines and general aviation airplanes. Very, very reliable engine.
BLITZER: The engines, there are two turbo props right on top of the wings and it looks potentially that maybe one of those engines simply was blown off or whatever and was on -- was burning. As that plane went down.
FRANCIS: I think that's a pretty -- that's a pretty potentially possible interpretation. The an angle which you see the fuselage of the aircraft with the tail and presumably the left wing. It looks like it has an engine on that wing. Now, you can't really see the other side. And it's hard to be sure which side it is but -- but I just can't overstate the value that that piece of film will be to the NTSB.
BLITZER: This is very extraordinary and these kinds of crashes to actually get a videotape of the plane crashing, isn't it?
FRANCIS: It is. And, particularly, you know, sometimes there'll be very little faded pieces that somebody will get. But this is -- this is pretty clear. And when they use a computer to improve the resolution of the photo, it's going to be very, very helpful, I think.
BLITZER: The next step in this is to do what? And let me just remind our viewers, what we're seeing. There were 20 people on board this Chalk's Ocean Airway flights leaving Miami for Bimini in the Bahamas. It had just taken off. It was getting some altitude when all of a sudden, we have no idea why, the plane simply started to go down and it was followed by a ball of fire.
Some sort of piece of that plane, it looks like, following the plane. The plane hits the water. Twenty people on board. They have recovered 19 bodies according to U.S. Coast Guard which has been in charge of the search and rescue operation and then shortly, a split second, literally, after the plane goes into the water, that subsequent piece of debris on fire and all that black smoke coming from that -- whether it's an engine or part of the wing or another part of the plane, whatever it is hits the water, as well.
And it is a pretty amazing piece of video but it's so heartbreaking to think -- to think, Bob, that there are 20 people on board that plane as it goes into the water.
FRANCIS: Absolutely. I mean, you know, whenever we're dealing with these kinds of things, the magnitude of the tragedy is enormous but I would say that in terms of the investigative process, I believe that this piece of film will now allow the NTSB to prioritize a little bit what they're looking for in terms of the wreckage.
So that, you know, if it isn't very deep there, and it probably isn't, they will be able to tell the divers, whoever the divers are, you know, we really want you to look for the engines or, you know, we want you to look for a wing or whatever it is. And don't worry about something else.
BLITZER: We're going to replay, Bob, this videotape and we are going to queue it up to the beginning once we see this. We're going to take a quick break, though. We are going to show the viewers precisely what we have on this videotape.
A heartbreaking, heartbreaking story that we have been covering.
We'll also continue on with the day's other news including my one on one interview with the Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. I'll ask her some of the tough questions on why the president authorized secret wiretapping, eavesdropping on American citizens and others in the aftermath of 9/11 without going to court and getting those court warrants.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: My interview with the Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice coming up.
But first, we want to show you that videotape, amateur video that we have just received here at CNN. Tourists took this video of this small seaplane that went down off the coast of South Beach in Miami Beach. There you see it. It's a Chalk Ocean Airways plane with 20 people on board; 19 bodies have been recovered.
Bob Francis, former vice chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board is on the phone with us. He's been watching this amazing, amazing video.
The plane goes in and then some other piece of equipment, maybe an engine, maybe a part of a wing, on fire, followed by a trail of black smoke. Hits the water right after the plane hits the water with those 20 people inside.
You've been trying to digest this, Bob. Give the viewers a sense of what we have just seen.
FRANCIS: We have seen a remarkable coverage of an accident taking place. And something which is, as I said, is going to be enormously valuable to the NTSB and the investigators. I can't remember -- or there are times when we have had film like this before, but not very often. And when you have it, it's very helpful.
BLITZER: Last time initial seeing a plane crash like that, some sort of acrobatic aircraft, or a stunt plane, usually you see that. But a passenger plane, even a small one, like this with 20 people on board, to see that crash like that, followed by something on fire with the trail of smoke is pretty amazing.
FRANCIS: Well, the Concorde accident, Wolf, in Paris, there was some very good film of that. And again, enormously helpful to the investigators.
BLITZER: Bob, we are going to continue to assess this videotape, slow it down. Get some more analysis. Stay with us because we'll come back to it.
Jacki Schechner getting some additional information online.
What are you getting, Jacki?
JACKI SCHECHNER, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Wolf, we crosschecked our researched the NTSB and what we found out is that this is the first Chalk Ocean Airways flight to go down with passengers. But there was actually two fatalities in an incident of March, 1994. What we found out is that plane went down in Key West. It was trying to refuel and then took off, rolled left, and crashed nose down into the water. Two pilots were killed. That was due to a supposed water leak. They hadn't crossed checked the water on that plane, Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. Jacki, thank you very much. We'll continue to monitor this videotape. Get all the latest information for it. We'll come back, here in THE SITUATION ROOM to this story.
But the other important story we've been following all day, President Bush, he's not alone today in defending his approval of domestic spying on terrorist suspects without a warrant. The Secretary of State of the United States Condoleezza Rice also is front and center taking questions about the program, and the president's power to authorize it.
I went over to the State Department earlier today. I spoke with the secretary of State at length about this earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER (on camera): Madam Secretary, thanks very much for joining us.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: A pleasure to be with you, Wolf.
BLITZER: You were the National Security Adviser right after 9/11 when the president authorized this extraordinary decision to go ahead with surveillance, eavesdropping on Americans and others making international phone calls or faxes or e-mails without getting court orders. How did that decision come about?
RICE: The president, first of all, let's talk about what he authorized. He authorized the National Security Agency to collect information on a limited number of people with ties to Al Qaeda in order to be able to close the gap, the seam, between the domestic territory of the United States and foreign territory.
One of the clear findings of the 9/11 Commission was that our intelligence agencies were looking outward. Our law enforcement agencies were looking inward, and a gap had developed. We didn't know the connection between what people with terrorist ties inside the United States were doing, to what people who were terrorists or might be planning terrorist operations outside the country were doing.
And so the president made that decision. He did it on the basis of the his constitutional authority under Article II, and other statutory authorities. I think the attorney general spoke to those legal issues earlier. And he did it to protect the country because these days, after September 11th, we recognized and he recognized as the one with real responsibility for protecting the country, that if you let people commit the crime, then thousands of people die. So you have to detect it before it happens.
BLITZER: But there was a mechanism, still is a mechanism that has been in place since 1978, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, FISA court, to go ahead and get this kind of authority with a court warrant. Why not use that?
RICE: Well, first of all, the FISA Act -- as you said, 1978, very different circumstances imagined at the time. FISA has been principally for a longer term monitoring. It's been capable of helping us when we have been principally concerned with the activities of people who might be acting on behalf of a foreign government.
You can imagine that those are often longer term matters. But the kind of agility that is needed in order to detect rather than to monitor, as the president talked about today, it -- the president needed to draw on these other authorities and he has. BLITZER: But even within the FISA Act, there are extraordinary circumstances that would allow the wiretap, the surveillance to begin, and then within 72 hours you could still go and get the warrant.
RICE: Well, let's just say that these people, these networks, these shadowy networks which are not associated with countries, they're stateless, not stable targets, are pretty agile themselves. And so in order to give the intelligence agencies the kind of agility that they need and in order to detect, Wolf.
I want to say, once again, the president has a constitutional responsibility to protect the country. That means physically. It also means to protect the civil liberties of Americans under the Constitution. And he, of course, has both responsibilities and takes both very seriously.
And so, that's why this was done with thorough levels of review. It has to be reauthorized every 45 days. It was briefed to Congress numerous times -- or to relevant congressional officials numerous times. And so the president and his advisers thought it was the best way to give him the ability as under his responsibilities as commander in chief to defend the country.
BLITZER: Because you know the history. You are a student of history. You know the history of the abuses of this kind of domestic spying going back into the '60s and '70s. And when the Supreme Court made a decision, it was nine to nothing, 1972 United States versus U.S. District Court, Louis Powell, the justice wrote this:
"Security surveillance are especially sensitive because of the inherent vagueness of the domestic security concept, the necessarily broad and continuing nature of intelligence gathering, and the temptation to utilize such surveillances to oversee political dissent."
You remember the spying on Dr. Martin Luther King and other Americans opposed to the war in Vietnam.
RICE: I do.
BLITZER: And national security considerations were then justified for that kind of surveillance. And then Powell went on to say that the Fourth Amendment protects Americans, and let me read specifically what he wrote, a nine to nothing decision, "from unreasonable searches and seizures, and that freedom cannot be properly guaranteed if domestic security surveillances are conducted solely at the discretion of the executive branch."
RICE: Well, first of all, the president is more than aware of the civil liberties concerns and that is why this has been structured in such a very limited and controlled way. With multiple layers of oversight, with lawyers of Justice and of the National Security Agency, overseeing it, briefings to Congress. It's also why as the attorney general spoke to earlier, the president is drawing on existing authorities under the constitution, under statute.
We also have to note, Wolf, that it is limited in scope. Limited to people who are associated with or with ties to Al Qaeda.
BLITZER: How do you know the people are associated with Al Qaeda?
RICE: I'm not going to get into the program, but let's just remember that in 2001, we experienced what it meant to not know what conversations were going on inside the country that were connecting to terrorists plotting outside the country.
We learned what that produced, and it produced the kind of devastation that we had on September the 11th. So the president has an obligation to try to close that seam and that is what he's done with this program.
BLITZER: When you were the National Security Advisor, did you ever say, well, maybe we should go seek new legislation? Get some new authority. Go to the courts and make sure this is done so that there would be no question whatsoever that this was done properly?
RICE: Wolf, this was a carefully and very deliberately considered issue for the president, of how best to fulfill his responsibilities to protect the country and how best to do it legally, within his constitutional and legal authorities.
BLITZER: Lindsey Graham, Republican of South Carolina said last night, "If the courts should have been involved, I want them involved, because you're at war, it doesn't justify doing away with a process that keeps you free."
Which is a statement that sort of underscores, like Senator Specter, Republican and others, that they want to hear more justification for this because they're not yet convinced that the legal authority as you cite in the Constitution, Article II, or the legislation passed right after 9/11 justifying use of force in Afghanistan --
RICE: Wolf, the president spoke to this earlier, and the attorney general who is, after all, the highest legal authority in the country, has spoken to this. I'm not a lawyer, but I can tell you from a policy perspective, the problem that had to be solved -- and must remain solved -- is to be able to protect this country by detecting terrorist plots before they materialize.
If in this case, this is not criminal activity where you let the criminal commit the crime, and then you investigate after the fact. This is not a trying to understand the activities of people who might be working on behalf of foreign governments. This is trying to detect, in a very rapid fashion, plots against this country by not having the territory of the United States, the safe haven for conversations between people with terrorist ties here, and with terrorists outside the country.
BLITZER: This is an extremely sensitive national security issue.
RICE: Of course.
BLITZER: Doesn't get much more sensitive of this. As a result, I'm confused why the president decided to publicly acknowledge it.
RICE: I think the president felt that after this very damaging leak, and frankly, it's a very sad day when the United States reveals to the people that we are trying to follow, trying to track, trying to disrupt, how we're doing it, and anything about how we're doing it.
You know, Wolf, the president cited earlier, we had a bead on Osama bin Laden's phone, at one point, too. And when an article appeared saying that, he stopped using it from all that we can tell. It is a danger to the country when there are leaks of this sort but the president felt that given this, he needed to explain it to the American people without exposing the details of the program.
And there have been to be limits in order not to expose the details of the program, but that he needed to explain he was using his constitutional authority to protect the country, in order to detect these plots and also, to protect their civil liberties.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: The secretary of State speaking with me earlier today over at the State Department. We'll take a quick break. When we come back, we'll get a different perspective on what the president has authorized. The famed Harvard Law profession Alan Dershowitz standing by, he's got a different take than the secretary of State, the attorney general, and the president. We'll hear from Alan Dershowitz, right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: We just heard the secretary of State defend the president's decision to go ahead with secret wire happens of Americans and others without court orders. Let's get a different perspective. Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz, is joining us, he is the author of "The Case For Peace", and he has a new book coming out next month, entitled, "Pre-Emption", precisely on this topic.
What do you believe? Does the president have the authority to go ahead and engage in this surveillance without getting court orders?
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, LAW PROFESSOR, AUTHOR: Not under current law. I think what the president is doing is playing Supreme Court roulette. He knows he is going to have a new Supreme Court. A new chief justice is already in place and a new nominee. And he's hoping that the new Supreme Court will have a different approach from the one in the 1970s.
The Supreme Court has been consistent since the 1950s requiring warrant for wiretaps involving American citizens and taking place in the United States. And what's worse is that president doesn't need this authority. FISA gives him everything he needs. It is rare that a wiretap request is turned down.
If Secretary Rice is right that there are these connections, all they have to do is go to a secret judge in the Justice Department either before the fact, or if necessary, after the fact, to get a warrant. The difference is a warrant requires that you keep a record. There's accountability and that can be hearings afterward, whereas under this procedure, nobody will ever know who was wiretapped. And he's requiring us to trust it's never used politically.
BLITZER: The president and his legal advisers say they have gone through all the laws. They cite the Article II, of the Constitution as commander in chief. They also cite the law that was passed right after 9/11 on September 14th, the president is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed or abided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States. Those are the two legal justifications he's cited.
DERSHOWITZ: Well, the Supreme Court of the United States just last year reminded the president that he is not commander in chief of the United States. He's commander in chief of the armed forces. That the United States civilian citizens are not under his control as commander in chief.
And if he thinks that Congress authorized this, why didn't he go to Congress and specifically say, let's be precise? Why is he so concerned about hearings now? Why not ask Congress whether they intended to authorize this kind of wiretapping and surveillance on American citizens?
The reason is because I think this administration knows Congress never had in mind to change the existing law and Congress may not have the authority. It may be constitutional.
BLITZER: They did -- at least a dozen times, notify the leadership in the Democratic and Republican leadership in the Congress and the chairman and the vice chairman of the Intelligence Committees.
DERSHOWITZ: That is right. And told them they couldn't even tell their staff members about it. It was so secret and confidential. We now have a letter from one of the senators out there saying, I was always in a very awkward position. I couldn't tell my staff about it. I couldn't communicate about it with other people. I never approved of it.
It's very, very difficult for senators simply being notified of something that's so confidential and now we're hearing the secretary complaining about "The New York Times" performing its check and function under the First Amendment to the Constitution being criticized for revealing this.
BLITZER: So did the president break the law?
DERSHOWITZ: I think the president broke the law. I think that Congress should have hearings. I think experts should be called in on the right, the left, in the center. Constitutional law scholars, criminal law scholars, and ask for an independent evaluation.
It is not enough for the president to get his lawyers to tell him what he wants to hear. That's not the kind of objective legal advice that the constitution requires for this kind of action to be undertaken. This is very, very serious.
And it's a beginning of a process and I think will have to end with congressional hearings, and inquiry into the power of the president, and this should not be resisted. This is required under our check and balance function.
BLITZER: All right. Alan Dershowitz, the Harvard Law professor, thank you very much for joining us.
DERSHOWITZ: Thank you.
BLITZER: The debate no doubt will continue.
Up next, might Saddam Hussein still have been on the run? A new report says he had a foolproof plan to evade capture. That's until he says someone betrayed him. Mary Snow's got the story. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Looking at news "Around the World". It turns out Saddam Hussein apparently had an escape plan when he was captured by U.S. troops two years ago. Let's go to New York, Mary Snow has some new details.
Mary?
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, it does seems that Saddam Hussein had a very different plan in the works the day he was taken into custody.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW (voice over): December 13th, 2003, his attorney says Saddam Hussein expected to find a motorcycle when he emerged from an underground hole. Instead, his escape plan went bust and he was taken into U.S. custody.
PAUL BREMER, U.S. CIVILIAN ADMIN. IN IRAQ: Ladies and gentlemen, we got him.
SNOW: Saddam Hussein says he believes betrayal did him in. That's according to Ramsey Clark, the former U.S. attorney general, who now represents the ousted Iraqi leader at his trial. He says Hussein believed he would be a fugitive indefinitely.
RAMSEY CLARK, SADDAM HUSSEIN'S LEGAL TEAM: He said he had been moving from place to place, to encourage people to resist the occupation. He had been at this particular place several times. He saw soldiers outside, that's when he went into the -- through the trap door into the tunnel.
SNOW: U.S. military officials describe it as the spider hole. According to Clark, Hussein told him he lost consciousness in the hole and believes he was gassed. The details emerge when Clark says he recently asked the former Iraqi leader about his capture during a break at the trial.
SNOW (on camera): Did you ask him how he moved around?
CLARK: I think he moved in different ways. I think he moved on bicycles. I think he moved in groups with -- in a wagon or -- he perhaps used taxi cabs.
SNOW (voice over): When U.S. forces captured Hussein, they reported a taxi cab outside his hiding spot.
(On camera): Would he travel alone?
CLARK: Rarely.
SNOW: How many people would travel with him?
CLARK: It would vary. Five or six would be maximum, probably two or three be more normal.
SNOW: Do you think he's telling you the truth?
CLARK: Yeah. No reason why he wouldn't be. Why make up something like that?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: When asked about Saddam Hussein's claim that he was gassed, a Pentagon spokesman said it was the first time he had heard of such a claim, but says he doubted it was true. The spokesman also said he would look into it further -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Mary. Good story. Thanks very much, Mary Snow, reporting. When we come back Jack Cafferty has your e-mail on the spying bomb shell. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's go right to New York and Jack Cafferty with your e-mail.
CAFFERTY: Was it wrong for "The New York Times" to publish the eavesdropping story?
John in Barberton, Ohio: "If 'The Times' was wrong about anything it was sitting on the story for a year. Please stop calling this eavesdropping, that's what I do at the restaurant when the couple in the next booth is discussing their spouses.
What the president authorized is a treasonous violation of the Fourth Amendment."
Mike writes: "I'd be outraged if my government, after 9/11, did not implement exactly this type of intelligence operation. By it's very nature, it must remain secret, as long as carefully implemented and with congressional oversight, I see no problem, except with those who now want to turn it into a political football." Josh writes in Washington, D.C.: "It's poor journalism to release classified information that threatens our national security. However, it's also a journalists responsibility to report news that is valuable to the American people. "The Times" felt there were constitutional laws being broken and the story was reported. If true, this is exactly what a reporter should do. Whether or not laws were broken remains to be seen."
Doug in San Diego: "I'm sure today's terrorists are sophisticated enough to know eavesdropping is taking place. "The Times" release of the information was only a revelation to us non- sophisticates, who blindly think our leaders are altruistic patriots who are only bent on doing good deeds."
BLITZER: All right. Jack, thanks very much, I'll see you here tomorrow in THE SITUATION ROOM. We're on the air weekdays, 4 to 6 p.m. Eastern, 7 to 8 p.m. Eastern. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Paula Zahn standing by to pick up our coverage -- Paula.
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