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The Situation Room
Extreme Weather Battering Many Parts of the Country; Interview with Robert Novak
Aired December 30, 2005 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: To our viewers here in THE SITUATION ROOM where new pictures and information from around the world are arriving all the time.
Happening now, a new investigation in the domestic spying controversy. It's 4:00 pm here in Washington where the Justice Department is trying to find out who leaked details about the National Security Agency program to the media?
Also, this hour, weathering the end of the year. West Coasters are facing more heavy rain and possibly even mud slides while southwesterners fear the grass fires could ignite again.
And Bob Novak on the record about the CIA leak flap. The hot political stories and his own colorful career. I'm Ali Velshi. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Wolf is off this week. First up, the newest leak investigation launched by the Bush administration. Targeted this time, the disclosure of classified information about the president's secret spying program.
The National Security Agency wiretaps are at the center of legal and political wrangling. Our Suzanne Malveaux is with the president in Crawford, Texas. And our national security correspondent David Ensor is here in Washington.
David, let's begin with you. What's the story?
DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ali, Justice Department officials are confirming that a leak investigation has indeed been launched. They -- the investigation by FBI agents and Justice Department officials will focus first on the relatively small group of U.S. officials who would have had to know about this classified program. They are mostly at the National Security Agency. There will be some presumably at the White House and other intelligence agencies. But this group will be interviewed. There's no question about it.
They'll also be some attention probably paid to the two reporters, to James Risen and Eric Lichtblau of "The New York Times."
But this investigation is somewhat in contrast with the one that most folks have been hearing about most recently, the Valerie Plame Wilson case. In that one, you had administration officials leaking the name of someone in order to discredit, to hurt her husband who was a critic of the Iraq war. In this case, there are, as one of the lawyers in this case says, some whistle blowers at stake.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK SAUBER, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: This leak investigation is more a traditional leak investigation involving what I'll call for the moment whistle blowers. The sense that I get here is that there are people in some of the intelligence agencies who were uncomfortable with the instructions that they had from the White House. And as a consequence, they leaked the information as a way to get into the public debate the fact that the administration was proceeding without warrants in cases where people might think warrants are required.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: It's going to be interesting to see whether or not a tactic pioneered in that Plame case will be used here, that of going after the journalists, the tactic that special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald has used.
This case is a little different though. Here you have a real debate about whether or not a program should have gone ahead, whether it's really legal. Some hard-felt opinions on both sides of that issue in Washington. And you have whistle blowers, apparently, who felt so strongly about it, they felt they needed to talk to reporters and try to get the story out -- Ali.
VELSHI: David, thanks. And we're going to talk more about whether they are whistle blowers and what's at the core of that a later on in the show.
Let's find out what the White House is saying about this. Suzanne Malveaux is in Crawford, Texas. She is traveling with the president who is at his ranch. Suzanne, any word from the administration about this?
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, yes. President Bush is sequestered in his Crawford ranch. But of course, the administration preparing for both of these investigations, the congressional hearings that will happen early next year as well as this Justice Department probe.
The White House, the Bush administration made an extraordinary effort to try to keep this story quiet as far as back as about a year ago when it first made aware that "The New York Times" was going to move forward on this, even President Bush holding a Oval Office meeting with the top editors of that newspaper to try to keep them from moving forward on this story.
It is very clear, the president just last week in a press conference saying that he thought it was shameful that people would leak this type of information during wartime. He went on to say that simply discussing the matter was actually help the enemy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're at war. And we must protect America's secrets. And so the Justice Department, I presume, will proceed forward with a full investigation. I haven't ordered one, but as I understand, there's kind of a natural progression that will take place when this kind of leak emerges.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Now, White House spokesman Trent Duffy talked to us today and gave a briefing. He essentially said that the Justice Department moved on its own in moving forward on this, that the White House did not play a role in this.
But it is very clear that the president had very strong views about this. He was informed of this between bike riding and clearing brush, that type of thing. So obviously he will be preparing for next year in this investigation.
Already as you can imagine, a lot of sparks flying here. ACLU spokesman releasing his own statement saying that President Bush broke the law and lied to the American people when he unilaterally authorized secret wiretaps of U.S. citizens.
But rather than focus on this constitutional crisis, Attorney General Gonzales is cracking down on critics of his friend and boss. Our nation is strengthened, not weakened by those whistle blowers who are courageous enough to speak out on violations of the law. And, of course, he is calling for a special counsel for an investigation of this matter. The White House fully backing the Justice Department's decisions today.
VELSHI: The president is not taking the day off. He was signing some bills into law. And in fact one of them was the extension of the Patriot Act.
MALVEAUX: That's absolutely right. It's certainly not what the president was hoping for. And Trent Duffy again saying he was hoping that the full act would be renewed at the end of the year for the next year. Essentially the Senate wanted a six-month extension. The House asked for five weeks. He signed on that extension.
What this does, is it really kicks forward the debate for January, resets the button there for the debate. We're going to hear arguments on both sides. Democrats and some Republicans who are very concerned about some of the provisions within this act. They believe go too far, violate civil liberties.
So again, in the broader picture, this is really just going to focus once again on that debate that is taking place in Washington and around the country over the president's struggle and authority to protect national security, also protect civil liberties, as well -- Ali.
VELSHI: Suzanne Malveaux in Crawford, Texas, thanks so much. We'll catch up with you later.
Senate Judiciary Committee chairman Arlen Specter is planning his own investigation into the NSA spying program in the new year. Now that panel is expected to focus on whether it was legal for the president to approve the eavesdropping without court order. Now, there's reportedly talk in the Senate about the Intelligence Committee possibly joining the investigation with Senator Specter's panel.
Well, now to another story we've been following, to the west coast and another fierce winter storm that's soaking the area and triggering fears of flooding and mud slides.
CNN's Jen Rogers is in Napa, California. And we've been watching you out there all day. Looks to be a little dryer than it was when I saw you up this morning, Jen.
JEN ROGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, looks can be deceiving, Ali. It might be letting up just a teense (ph). But we have really had substantial ran here, and steady rainfall since 5:00 a.m. this morning
We're on the banks of the Napa River. There has been a flood warning issued further up the river. And that is expected to be extended down here as well later today.
Let me give you an idea of what's happening here at the river. If you can look at this sign, that orange line there is flood level. You can see we have a good ways to go. But we have moved up from where we were earlier today, a combination of the rainfall and also high tide.
Now, just a few hours away from here over on the Sacramento River, they've already been dealing with some flooding at a trailer park. You can see pictures of that. Of course, no flooding here so far, but what is expected is that over the course of the weekend with more water coming on to this ground that is already so saturated, more water will be coming into this river and people will be keeping a very close eye on it.
Again, that warning is expected to be extended right down here to where we are later today -- Ali.
VELSHI: Jen, we will keep on checking in with you, try and stay dry. Sounds like a pointless exercise at this point. Jen Rogers in Napa.
Well, let's check some other winter weather. Highway crews worked on avalanche control in parts of Colorado. That's a day after heavy snow blew across the Rockies pushed by 75 mile per hour winds. That winter storm has moved on to Minnesota. Four to seven inches are blanketing the southern part of the state today. Near freezing temperatures made the snow heavy and wet.
Now, very different conditions in the southwest. Grass fires that have bushed about 30,000 acres in Oklahoma are mostly contained this hour. But the dry windy weather continues. And that makes the region ripe for new blazes. At least four people were killed in the wildfires in Oklahoma and Texas this week. And more than 200 homes were destroyed. Let's bring in our meteorologist and severe weather expert Chad Myers to give us the latest on those western storms and whether there's any relief in sight for Oklahoma and Texas -- Chad.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: A little relief tonight. And then it really goes downhill Saturday night and Sunday morning. I mean, Ali, winds on Sunday could be 50-60 miles per hour across parts of the northern plains and 40-50 right across Oklahoma into Dallas where those hot spots are still there.
I know they're settled down a little bit, but there are still little embers there in the ground that will get fired back up on Saturday and Sunday.
Big storm coming on shore here, making the rain for Jen Rogers. Here's the snow across Minneapolis, the same storm that made the storm in Colorado yesterday. And there's the storm that made all the fire activity on Tuesday -- one, two, three, right across the country. And it doesn't stop any time soon.
(WEATHER REPORT)
VELSHI: Let's turn now to our Internet reporter Jacki Schechner. She is monitoring those Oklahoma regions that are highly susceptible to more wild fires--Jacki.
JACKI SCHECHNER, INTERNET REPORTER: Just wanted to focus in, Ali, on the drought conditions. This is really interesting stuff. There's actually a web site called Drought Reporter. And this will tell you the drought conditions.
You can see right there where the most impact is in the Texas area. And this is all interactive. You can do this on your computer. Roll over it and then click on it, and it will bring it up by county. And you can see how many incidents reported in each particular county. It's kind of interesting to take a look. Obviously, those dark maroon areas are the ones where there is the most impact.
The other thing that we're monitoring are the drought outlooks. The Weather Prediction Center has their monitoring, and you can see how much rain is necessary to bring the drought levels back to zero.
Take a look this. You can see, this area right here, nine to 12 inches. That's the dark red. So it's going to take a lot of rain in that area in order to get it back up to zero--Ali.
VELSHI: All right. Jacki, we'll check back in with you. Jacki Schechner tracking the situation online.
Coming up, a nightmare on the rails. Amtrak passengers stuck on board for about 20 hours. How bad has it gotten? Well, I'll ask a passenger who is still stuck on an Amtrak train and fuming.
Also ahead, Wolf's exclusive interview with Bob Novak, the columnist and long time CNN political analyst speaks out about his role in one of the big stories of the year, the CIA leak investigation.
And later, it's time for the big countdown, not to 2006 but to the political plays of the year.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Trapped in the middle of nowhere, stuck for about 20 hours, worried about running out of medicine, searching for a fully supplied bathroom, that is the plight of passengers on Amtrak train 98, the Silver Meteor. It's stuck near Savannah, Georgia.
Now, a freight train ahead of it broke down. And there's no way to pass. At least two other trains are also delayed. One passenger said she chose the Silver Meteor because she was afraid to fly.
Now, we have talked to Amtrak to get a bit of an understanding about what happened, what the situation is. This is the response we got from them.
Amtrak says, "we really regret this but this was beyond Amtrak's ability. This made it impossible for our trains to proceed until this morning. And even then, there was a tremendous amount of freight train congestion."
Well, let's get a little more on the story. Let's go to train 98 where one of the passengers is with us now.
Eleanor Myer (ph).
Eleanor, are you with us?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm here.
VELSHI: Eleanor, what is going on? Tell me what is happening. Where are you? How long have you been there? And what's the situation now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, right now, we're sitting on the 98 Silver Meteor waiting for the crew to shift and make a shift change. And as I'm speaking, I'm watching a CSX freight train pass us by.
According to some of the passengers on here, the freight trains here get priority because there's, I guess, two companies involved, CSX owns the tracks and Amtrak owns the trains. So Amtrak is blaming CSX and CSX is blaming Amtrak.
I don't really care who's responsible. I just want to get out of here.
VELSHI: Where are you getting to? Where is home?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Home is in Poughkeepsie, New York. But anywhere north of Jersey would be fine with me.
VELSHI: Eleanor, we're going to get more information on this and talk to you again. Thank you for being with us. And we hope you do get home and get to celebrate New Year's somewhere other than on a train track. Eleanor Myer stuck on train 98.
Coming up next, his words sparked the CIA leak investigation. Now Bob Novak speaks out on the controversy and a lot more. Our special interview with the conservative columnist is just moments away.
And later, the top five in '05. Our Bill Schneider counts down the political plays of the year. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: A second leak investigation is now underway here in Washington. As we reported, the Justice Department is looking into disclosures about President Bush's secret spying program.
The first leak probe in the outing of CIA operative Valerie Plame Wilson is still a work in progress. Columnist, long-time CNN political analyst and strategy session regular Bob Novak is leaving CNN. Today is his last day.
Now He recently talked to Wolf Blitzer about his role in the CIA leak saga and much more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Whether you agree or disagree with Robert Novak, few would dispute he's an original, a one-of-a-kind journalist, columnist, pundit and man who's been with CNN for all of its 25 years.
Today is Bob's last day with this network. It's been quite a ride culminating with his controversial role in that CIA leak story. Bob is with us here in THE SITUATION ROOM today and in our exclusive interview, I'll ask him about the leak probe, much more. We'll have a wide ranging no holds barred conversation.
First though, a look back at a remarkable career so far. Here's our national correspondent Bruce Morton.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRUCE MORTON, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Bob Novak's been in the news lately because he was the reporter who printed the name of Ambassador Joe Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, and said she worked for the CIA. He has always said he didn't know she was covert and was never told disclosure would endanger her.
ROBERT NOVAK, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: I had been told, not by the official sources at the CIA but by the unofficial sources, that she was not a covert operative.
MORTON: But there's a lot more to Novak than one story. He's written a column first with the late Roland Evans then alone for more than 40 years and they joined CNN when this network began in 1980.
ROLAND EVANS, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: I'm Roland Evans. For the next 30 minutes and each week hereafter, Robert Novak and I will hold a controversial news figure in the camera's eye.
MORTON: Tough questions, good reporting.
NOVAK: Are you worried about the moral majority and the right wing of the party?
GEORGE BUSH SENIOR, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't -- no, I'm not.
MORTON: Made some news. Then Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney predicting Mikhail Gorbachev's failure to reform the Soviet Union in 1989.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think the bottom line is that if I had to guess today, I would guess that he would ultimately fail. That is to say that he will not be able to reform the Soviet economy to turn it into an efficient modern society.
MORTON: Evans died in 2001. Novak kept going to wherever the news was.
NOVAK: I'm Robert Novak in Tokyo. At the prime minister's official residence. My guest is Kiichi Miyazawa, prime minister of Japan.
From the Blue House in Seoul, Korea, to question the president of the Republic of Korea, Kim Young-Sam.
MORTON: American politics issues true love. And he hasn't missed covering a political convention since 1960.
NOVAK: George, I've been told by the Reagan people that both Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford will come to the hall tonight after Reagan is nominated.
MORTON: He has a nickname, the prince of darkness, and likes to cause trouble and stir up strife., he said once. And he had a chance to do that not just on "Evans and Novak," but on other CNN broadcasts, "Crossfire" and "Capital Gang."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bob Novak is to unattributed sources what Baryshnikov is to ballet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It would be like putting Shelley Winters in charge of twinkies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Novak, let me say something to your face. I deeply resent the implication. You are implying I'm a communist.
NOVAK: I did not imply that at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You sure as hell did. And I deeply resent it.
NOVAK: I never said you were.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said it four times.
NOVAK: I say your judgment is bad, and I think you're performing a disservice to your country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A service for the Soviets. That is absurd.
MORTON: He's done other things, father, grandfather, jumped out of a plane on CNN at age 72, converted to Roman Catholicism in 1998. We all know that Bob is a Catholic. The question is will he become a Christian?
In public, at any rate, the take no prisoners questions continue. His game is hardball. Since he's nicknamed a prince, I thought about saying goodbye in Shakespeare's phrase, good night sweet prince. But then I thought no, Bob would object to sweet, and he would be right.
Bruce Morton, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And now the man himself, Bob Novak is here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Bob, welcome.
NOVAK: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: We're going to get to the CIA leak and other issues in a few moments.
Let's talk about some of the issues right now on the agenda.
The president of the United States, George W. Bush, he's been in office now for five years, approaching his sixth year. You have been a good conservative all these years.
Are you satisfied with the way he's conducted himself? Has he been a good conservative from your perspective?
NOVAK: I think it's a mixed bag, Wolf.
I think his tax policy has been terrific. I think we would be in the depths of the economy if it weren't for the fact that he took a tough stand, a courageous stand in cutting the capital gains cuts, tax, the dividend tax, other income taxes.
I think, like most -- all Republican presidents, he hasn't done enough to reduce the size of the government. Nobody wants to bite that bullet.
The thing that I took issue with him, I didn't think we should have gone into Iraq. It was a few of us conservatives thought it was a bad idea. Once we get there, you can't bug out. You can't...
BLITZER: What was so bad about going in and getting rid of Saddam Hussein? NOVAK: It was wonderful getting rid of him.
I'd like to get rid of a lot of dictators, but we can't send the U.S. military around the world to get rid of every dictator.
The question was, was it necessary in the national interest?
BLITZER: Was it?
NOVAK: I didn't think it was. I didn't think it at the time. Because I said several times on this network that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
BLITZER: How did you know that and the president of the United States, the vice president of the United States were convinced that there were apparently?
NOVAK: Because my sources -- I don't run my own CIA. My sources didn't think there were, in the military, people I trusted.
And the indication by the inspectors indicated there was no weapons. But the point...
BLITZER: Do you -- let me...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Sure.
BLITZER: Was the president sold a bill of goods on Iraq?
NOVAK: I think they got in a mindset where they really wanted change of government, and then it was a need to find reasons for a change of government.
BLITZER: Why was that?
NOVAK: I believe that they felt that this was the key to American foreign policy.
I think it was -- they thought it was very important to our ally, Israel, to get rid of him, to peace in the Middle East, and then you kind of think of reasons to get it done.
But let me say, Wolf, that I really do believe that once you are in there with American troops on the ground and the commitment of this country, I think it is highly irresponsible to get out.
I'm so disappointed in Congressman John Murtha, who's a great public figure, talking about redeployment, of forces getting out.
I think we are going to get out at a slow rate. But a rapid redeployment would be a disaster for this country.
BLITZER: Because you remember when he ran for president in 1999 and 2000, he ran against the notion of nation building. He thought that was a huge mistake.
NOVAK: I still think nation building is a bad idea. But we're in -- Wolf, we're in nation building and, once you start, you can't say, gee, I didn't think this was -- this isn't much fun; we have to get out.
BLITZER: I'm sure you're upset also about this expansion of the federal government. It's bigger than it's ever been before.
NOVAK: It is. I think it would be even bigger if we had a Democratic president and a Democratic congress. There's no question. If you follow Congress, and I know you do, all the fights that go on there is the Democrats, like people in Oliver Twist say, "I want more." They want more on their plate, more porridge.
BLITZER: But the Republicans have been in charge of the House of Representatives now for what, 11 years?
NOVAK: They have too much, but they don't have as much as the Democrats. Democrats say every bill they want more for schools, more for welfare, more for everything except the military. And so it's not that they're fiscally responsible. What the Democrats want to do is raise taxes, which would be a disaster. You know, remember Henny Youngman?
BLITZER: I do.
NOVAK: He used to say, "How's your wife compared to what?" And that's the thing with the Republicans. How are the Republicans compared to what?
BLITZER: Compared to Bill Clinton. Are you nostalgic for those eight years of Bill Clinton?
NOVAK: Oh, I certainly am not. I thought he was a terrible president.
BLITZER: But he did have a balanced budget, and he did have surpluses for a long time.
NOVAK: I've never been for a balanced budget. I don't think it's important. It's a sign of something -- you can't have a balanced budget when you have 9/11, when you have a war going on around the world. And, of course, he left the country with a recession when he left.
BLITZER: I know you fiercely protect civil liberties. Are you disappointed that after 9/11, the president authorized secret wiretaps on American citizens without court orders?
NOVAK: I don't know about the whole wiretap situation. It's something that have really come to a conclusion on. I do believe that the Patriot Act goes -- particularly the revised version coming out of the conference committee -- goes too far. I think there's too much freeloading by the police. I know this. I started -- Wolf, I started covering police in Joliet, Illinois, in the 1940s, before you were born, I believe. And the police always want more. They want more power. And I believe a real conservative wants to keep a control on police power.
BLITZER: So you would tell your conservative friends on the Hill to reject this Patriot Act, at least those provisions?
NOVAK: I think amend it. I think you have to have the Patriot Act. I think that Senator Sununu has been going...
BLITZER: John Sununu Jr. from New Hampshire.
NOVAK: That's right. He's been going in the right direction on the Patriot Act, trying to amend it. And a few other conservatives have been doing the same thing.
BLITZER: All right, stand by, Bob, because I want to get to some other issues in a moment. But we have to take a quite commercial break. You remember what quick commercial breaks were all about.
NOVAK: No, I know. I love quick commercial breaks.
BLITZER: Stand by for a moment. Bob Novak. Much more of the CIA leak bombshell. Bob Novak's role in outing the operative Valerie Plame Wilson. What does he think about the use of anonymous sources now? And does he think Patrick Fitzgerald's investigation is having a chilling effect on journalism? More of our exclusive conversation with Bob Novak. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER Welcome back. On July 14th, 2003, Robert Novak published a column that left an indelible mark on his career and on the Bush White House. He wrote about former ambassador Joe Wilson, who questioned the president's justification for war in Iraq.
And he disclosed that Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame Wilson, was a CIA operative. Two years later, the investigation of that leak led the special prosecutor to indict the Vice President Dick Cheney's then-chief of staff Lewis "Scooter" Libby, who has since resigned. Bob Novak hasn't given any interviews since Libby's indictment until now. He's still here in THE SITUATION ROOM. Welcome back. Before we get to some of the other stuff, what do you make of the indictment of Lewis "Scooter" Libby?
NOVAK: Wolf, I haven't discussed this case on the advice of my lawyers. I was set to go on CNN at the time of the indictment of Libby and tell about my role in the case, things I haven't disclosed on the grounds that the case was over. And to my amazement, the special prosecutor continued the case.
He later summoned a new grand jury. So I was very disappointed because if I had been able to go on CNN to discuss that case, then I would have done my regular commentary on CNN for the rest of the year until the conclusion of my contract, which is now. BLITZER: Which is right now.
NOVAK: So I'm very disappointed that I missed...
BLITZER: So you were surprised on that day when he indicted Scooter Libby that the whole thing wasn't resolved, it's still continuing?
NOVAK: Oh, yes. We found that out that morning. And I was all set to go on. I was writing a column. My newspapers were prepared to have a special column. And we were going to -- it was a Friday, you remember? We were going to have a Saturday column running in "The Washington Post".
BLITZER: I remember very vividly.
NOVAK: So it's very disappointing to me. And I still -- if this investigation ever comes to an end, and it will come to an end, then I will be writing a column. Unfortunately, I won't be with CNN anymore.
BLITZER: Let me read what you wrote, just to be precise. These were the sensitive words: "Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife Valerie Plame is an agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report. The CIA says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him." Do you regret writing that story?
NOVAK: Well, that's a very interesting question. I probably do because it's caused me so much trouble. I don't think I did anything wrong. But as a practical matter -- it wasn't a big scoop, you know.
It was in the, I think, the seventh paragraph of a 13-paragraph story or 11-paragraph story. And so it was just a throw away line. And the whole column was not abusive toward Joe Wilson in any way.
BLITZER: The argument was that it was designed, releasing her name, to undermine him and to question his credentials.
NOVAK: Yes, and I have said that that wasn't the case.
BLITZER: Why was it necessary to publish her name? Didn't CIA officials try to dissuade you from doing so?
NOVAK: Well, they said they would rather that I didn't, but my information was it was well-known. But...
BLITZER: What was well-known?
NOVAK: Her name.
BLITZER: Well known to whom? Because it had never been published.
NOVAK: No, it hadn't been published, but it was well-known around town. BLITZER: Because there are suggestions now that she's come under death threat, that she's lost her career, she's no longer able to go out on clandestine operations for the CIA.
NOVAK: Well, I can't go into a lot of details, but I can tell you what I've said before publicly, and that was that the CIA people said that it was highly unlikely she would ever go on another operation. This was before I wrote this.
BLITZER: Here's what you said the other day, at least according to the "Raleigh News and Observer," December 14th, 2005. "I'm confident the president knows who the source is. I'd be amazed if he doesn't. So I say, don't bug me. Don't bug "Washington Post" reporter Bob Woodward. Bug the president as to whether he should reveal who the source is." We're talking about your initial source for this story, is that right?
NOVAK: I was giving a speech, as I do every couple of years, to a conservative think tank called the John Locke foundation in Raleigh. And I've spoken there for years. And I've said a lot of outrageous things to them, and it never gets in the paper.
I made the bum reporter's mistake, I didn't think there was any reporters there. So that was a stupid thing for me to say. I was just kind of -- it wasn't in the speech. I had given a speech for about 40 minutes, and we had about ten minutes of Q and A. And that was the last question. It's always the last quell that does you in. That was really a dumb thing to say.
BLITZER: Was it dumb to say it, or was it not true? Do you believe the president knows who your source is?
NOVAK: It was dumb to say it.
BLITZER: But you do believe the president...
NOVAK: I'm not going to say. I thought it was an off-the-record operation. And so I really don't want to go any further into it. I'm very embarrassed that it appeared in print. I thought it was just in a private setting. So I don't want to go any further.
BLITZER: I want to talk about your career at CNN. But one final question on the CIA leak. Other reporters who have testified before the grand jury, whether Tim Russert or Judy Miller or Matt Cooper, afterwards, they've come out and explained their role, what happened, what didn't happen, which is their right to do so. Why can't you do that now?
NOVAK: I can't tell you why I can't do it. I've been advised by counsel not to, my lawyers. And I take their advice. Except when I'm saying something stupid to something I thought was off the record. But I have said repeatedly I will describe my role when this investigation is over. And I'll explain why I haven't said anything. But I can't -- and I'll be happy to. I'd be delighted to when this investigation is over, but not until then.
BLITZER: And you're anxious to do that, I assume.
NOVAK: Yes, I am.
BLITZER: And you're anxious for this investigation to be over.
NOVAK: Yes.
BLITZER: Your late partner, Rollie Evans, who was a good friend of mine too, a great journalist in his own right, listen to what he said here on CNN before he passed away about you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROWLAND EVANS, "EVANS & NOVAK": He's a very all-embracing kind of person. A very shred, very smart, very smart fellow. Economics, politics, and sports. Very diligent follower of sports. But for the show, politics, economics.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: And you remember Rollie Evans, obviously, a lot better than I do.
NOVAK: One of the great reporters.
BLITZER: He was a great guy. When you did all those shows, "Evans and Novak" here on CNN, who was your favorite guest, looking back over all of those years?
NOVAK: I think my favorite guest was Boris Yeltsin. It was very hard to get an interview with him. We had him scheduled in Moscow one year, and he didn't show up on a Saturday night. I was told never schedule Boris Yeltsin on a Saturday night at night. So we had him in the daytime in his office the next year, and he was really fascinating.
Nobody really knew where he was coming from. And what he really said in that interview was that they were abandoning communism. That was the first time it really came over, and that he didn't believe in socialism, didn't believe in the communist system.
And that was -- Wolf, that was one of the last interviews he ever gave because a lot of thuggish aides got involved with him and were demanding a little money in order to do an interview. And you'll find that there was almost no interviews by American networks after that.
BLITZER: Because we wouldn't pay for interviews with leaders like that.
NOVAK: That's right.
BLITZER: The final "Crossfire," you were on with Paul Begala. Listen to Paul Begala from that final "Crossfire."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) NOVAK: I went around on that 2004 election about two or three times, maybe it was even more. Paul and I went to mass together. And people would come up and say, "How can you guys go to church together?" Well, I think we actually believe in the same God. Can you imagine that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Actually, you were talking about Paul Begala. That was James Carville. You had another episode with James Carville on CNN, as you remember.
NOVAK: A lot of episodes on CNN.
BLITZER: As viewers will recall. What kind of relationship -- even when you and James or you and Paul got into it, you did have a pretty decent relationship with these guys, a civil cordial relationship.
NOVAK: Yes, we enjoyed our company, in fact, off camera. I try to be honest and not hypocritical. I didn't always enjoy their company on camera. I think there was a mismatch between us in one way because Paul and James were --they'd be the first to tell you, they were Democratic operatives. They were out there to help the Democratic Party.
And I was not a Republican operative. I'm not even a registered Republican. I'm a conservative. But so you had one side was all for the Democrats and the other side was -- I tried to be even handed, but from a right-of-center viewpoint.
BLITZER: Bob Novak's finishing up his memoirs. We'll look forward to reading those.
NOVAK: Can I say one other thing? I want to thank CNN for making this network available to me for 25 years. Never censored me once, ever. And I said some outrage just things. And it was a wonderful opportunity for me. I think I worked hard for CNN, but it was a wonderful opportunity, and I want to thank them.
BLITZER: And we want to thank you. We know you worked hard for CNN. Bob Novak, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, and thanks for all your 25 excellent years. And let's hope the next 25 years are even better.
NOVAK: Thank you.
VELSHI: Well, coming up, it's an annual tradition here at CNN, the political plays of the year. Our Bill Schneider reveals the winners when we come back.
Plus, a 16-year-old Florida boy is heading home after an adventure in Iraq. How did he get there in the first place? Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) VELSHI: It is time for the traditional end of the year countdown. We don't have Dick Clark or even Ryan Seacrest to preside over our extravaganza, but we have our senior political analyst, Bill Schneider.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Five for '05, the political plays of the year. Play number five, Texas prosecutor Ronnie Earle brought down the hammer on the Hammer, Tom DeLay.
RONNIE EARLE, TRAVIS COUNTY, TEXAS, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: The indictment charges DeLay with conspiring Ellis and Colyandro to violate the Texas election code by contributing corporate money to candidates for the Texas legislature.
SCHNEIDER: It was a classic act of partisan score settling, as DeLay did not fail to notice.
REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), FORMER HOUSE MAJORITY LEADER: This act is the product of a coordinated premeditated campaign of political retribution.
SCHNEIDER: But it was also a brilliant decapitation strategy. DeLay stepped aside as majority leader. House Republicans fell into leaderless disarray and Democrats saw a chance to make ethics a partisan issue.
Play number four, another prosecutor, Patrick Fitzgerald, led another politically-charged probe. But in Fitzgerald's case, no one could find any partisan motive.
PATRICK FITZGERALD, U.S. SPECIAL COUNSEL: This is simply an indictment that says in a national security investigation about the compromise of a CIA officer's identity that may have taken place in the context of a vewry heated debate over the war whether a person, Mr. Libby, lied or not.
SCHNEIDER: Fitzgerald indicted Libby, continues to threaten Karl Rove, and pretty much paralyzed the White House while he himself remain untouchable, a political Elliott Ness.
Play number three, conservatives declared their independence. They rose up in revolt over the nomination of Harriet Miers to the Supreme Court.
SEN. SAM BROWNBACK (R), KANSAS: Well, a number of us would like to have had somebody that had a clear track record on these key issues.
SCHNEIDER: They brought Miers down. They also refused to tow the White House line on deficit spending, immigration, Medicare, and torture. After four years, a conservative uprising loosened the White House grip on the Republican Congress.
Play number two, John McCain managed to have it both ways. A principled maverick who remained Bush-friendly and kept lines open to conservatives. After beating the White House into submission on the torture issue, McCain somehow made it look like President Bush won.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Thank you, Mr. President. I want to take this opportunity to thank you for the effort that you have made to resolve this very difficult issue.
SCHNEIDER: McCain is one of the few figures in American politics who appeals to both Democrats and Republicans.
And the political play of the year? That would be John Roberts, who shut down what was supposed to be the ultimate political showdown. Roberts trumped what could have been a bitter ideological controversy with strong credentials and a limited paper trail, as well as considerable political finesse. Under close questioning, Roberts revealed almost nothing about how he might vote.
JUDGE JOHN ROBERTS, SUPREME COURT CHIEF JUSTICE: And there's nothing in my personal views based on faith or other sources that would prevent me from applying the precedents of the court faithfully under principles of stare decisis.
SCHNEIDER: The Senate voted 78-22 to confirm Roberts as chief justice. Democrats were split down the middle. War was averted.
New Year's is the time for predictions, but the message of 2005 is political plays are rarely predictable as the great American philosopher Yogi Berra once said, never make predictions, especially about the future. Good advice for a happy new year.
Bill Schneider, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELSHI; Well, coming up next, an Iraqi baby's journey finally in motion. Will doctors in the United States be able to save her life?
And skating to citizenship. An ice dancer will be able to go for gold with special help from President Bush and Congress. The story and questions about preferential treatment in our 7:00 p.m. Eastern hour of THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: All right, we're back in THE SITUATION ROOM. Kimberly Osias joins us now with a closer look at some other stories making news -- Kimberly?
KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ali, the end of the year brings no end of news from Iraq. Iraqi police say two explosions killed five people in central Baghdad, 23 more were wounded. In one incident, a mortar hit a coffee shop, killing people as they played dominoes. And two more U.S. soldiers were killed in combat. That brings the total to 2,177.
Also in oil-rich Iraq, fears of a gas shortage. The nation's biggest refinery has been shut down for more than a week due to security concerns. And that's caused long lines at gas stations. Gas there, by the way, is 65 cents a gallon. Deputy prime minister Ahmed Chalabi has taken direct control of Iraq's oil ministry. Chalabi formerly headed an Iraqi exile group which strongly urge the U.S. to invade Iraq.
And a 3-month-old little Iraqi girl who needs surgery for a potentially fatal birth defet -- I believe it's spina bifida -- is on her way finally to the U.S. Georgia National Guard troops found little Baby Noor when they raided her family's house. The troops got friends and charities to help them arrange the surgery -- Ali?
VELSHI: Kimberly, we will check in with you again. Kimberly Osias.
Also on the way back from Baghdad is a 16-year-old boy. Very interesting story that we will continue to follow here on THE SITUATION ROOM. Stay tuned for that.
And we are going to take a quick break now, I think is what we're doing. When we come back, if John Kerry could turn back time, what would he do differently in his run for the White House? Find out in our 7:00 p.m. Eastern hour when he sits down with Wolf Blitzer. And we'll be right back in a second. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Well, on this, our final day in THE SITUATION ROOM in 2005, we want to remember some of those we lost in the past year. Our national correspondent Bruce Morton looks back.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRUCE MORTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We lost John Paul II, the towering figure, a theological conservative, who inspired his fellow Poles with visits to Poland when it was still under Soviet occupation. A devout man, one who knew him wrote, "who thinks on his knees."
We lost Rosa Parks, courteous, tough as nails, wouldn't give up her Montgomery, Alabama, bus seat to a white. Got arrest and lit a flame, a bus boycott led by a young minister named Martin Luther King, which integrated the buses and launched the civil rights movement that integrated so much more.
We lost Terri Schiavo, who collapsed in 1990, whose husband said she was brain dead and would want to die. But the Congress passed and the president signed a bill letting her parents appeal their case to the federal courts. The courts did not intervene and she did die. The autopsy showed her husband had been right about her condition.
WILLIAM REHNQUIST, FORMER SUPREME COURT CHIEF JUSTICE: Our work as a court of impeachment is now done.
MORTON: We lost William Rehnquist, a conservative chief justice. Lost Eugene McCarthy, a poet, senator, and in 1968 an anti-Vietnam war presidential candidate whose success in the New Hampshire primary persuaded President Lyndon Johnson not to seek reelection. But McCarthy did not get the nomination and did not stop the war.
PETER JENNINGS, FORMER HOST, "ABC WORLD NEWS TONIGHT": Have a good evening. I'm Peter Jennings. Thanks, and goodnight.
MORTON: We lost Peter Jennings, longtime ABC News anchorman.
Lost Johnny Carson, who somehow looked the way late night hosts on TV ought to look. We lost Hunter Thompson, the self-styled gonzo journalist who's book "Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trial" was, one critic said, the least factual and most accurate account of the 1972 presidential campaign.
Lost Frank Perdue, who made chickens famous, or maybe of it the other way around. We lost Anne Bancroft who won a Tony and an Oscar for "The Miracle Worker," and who men remember of a certain age remember as the sexy predator, Mrs. Robinson, in "The Graduate."
DUSTIN HOFFMAN, ACTOR: Mrs. Robinson, you're trying to seduce me.
MORTON: And we lost Richard Pryor, a gifted comedian who talked dirty and led a troubled life, but who was, as Jerry Seinfeld said in "Newsweek," "the Picasso of our profession."
We remember at year's end the famous who've died. But we ought to remember this year some others. The 822 American service men and women as of December 20th, mostly young and not famous, who died this year in Iraq. Their lives lay ahead of them. They had things they wanted to do.
And in that sense, they are like another group we should remember, the 1,322 people -- that's the confirmed count, the real toll is probably higher -- who died in Hurricane Katrina. They had hopes and plans and families. And death came out of the sky and took them all.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
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