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The Situation Room
Around-The-Clock Rescue Effort Under Way for Trapped Miners; Press Conference On Trapped Miners; Jack Abramoff Associates Worried
Aired January 03, 2006 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: It's 5:00 p.m. in Washington, and to our viewers, you're now in THE SITUATION ROOM, where news and information from around the world arrive at one place at the same time.
Happening now, it's 5:00 p.m. in Upshur County, West Virginia, where each minute for many people seems like an hour. Right now, an around- the-clock rescue effort is under way for 13 coal miners trapped deep underground. It's been over 34 hours. Crews are using drills, they're using robots to dig deep, hoping to pull out the miners safe and sound.
President Bush says all of America is praying, hoping those prayers are answered of the anxious family members of the trapped miners. They're banding together and bonding out of their shared sense of grief. We're watching what's going on with them. And we're awaiting a news conference momentarily to start of the latest on what's going on.
It's 5:00 p.m. here in Washington, meanwhile, where some politicians are clearly sweating, a well connected Washington lobbyist pleading guilty in a political scandal. Now he appears set to name names on which Democrats and Republicans might be guilty of improper behavior as well.
I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
We're standing by for a live news conference in Upshur County, West Virginia, where rescuers are trying to reach 13 miners trapped underground for almost a day and a half now. We'll bring you that news conference as soon as it begins.
Meantime, CNN's Anderson Cooper is on the scene for us. Let's set the stage what we know at this hour, Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, Wolf, what we know is this: that a meeting just ended with family members, a private meeting with mine officials, the same officials who will very quickly be briefing the media which has assembled for that press conference you're going to be carrying live.
What they told the family members, according to one family member we just spoke with, not a lot of new information. There had been some -- some -- some talk, one family member had told a producer at CNN previously that they were going to be told one way or another how this thing was going. That did not occur, according to the family member we just spoke to, who said that they didn't really get any much new information.
We'll be watching this press conference at 5:00. They routinely meet with the family members privately, briefing them ahead of them briefing the media, because they do not want family members learning information from television. They want everyone to hear it straight from the mine officials.
It is just, you know, one more hour that has gone by in a day in which people are counting the hours and literally counting the minutes from meeting to meeting. These families hold out so much hope for each of these meetings that is scheduled.
They had one at 2:30, then they just at this one at 4:30. But not much new information today. We know that the rescuers have made further inroads into the mine, but at this point, there is still no word on whether the miners are alive or dead.
Wolf.
BLITZER: Do we know, Anderson, whether the drilling -- they've actually had microphones, cameras, sophisticated robotic equipment that has successfully gone down there to listen, to watch, to try to get some sign of life?
COOPER: No, we do not know the status. I mean, the first drilling did not have any success in terms of hearing anything. The second drill that went down ran into some trouble. They now have this third drill going, and they are hoping to put some -- some eavesdropping equipment down there. But at this point, that has not borne any fruit.
What seems to be making the greatest progress is these -- the leapfrogging teams of rescue workers who are just going on foot and then followed up by ones on battery-operated trolley. But they have pushed about 10,300 feet at last count. We're probably going to get an update very quickly, and that is nearing the end of the mine.
They believe these miners are somewhere around the area of 11,000 to 13,000 feet in what they call L2, the second left arm of this mine. But as we learned earlier this morning, there were high levels of carbon monoxide reported there, three times the levels that is fit for -- that humans can survive in for more than 15 minutes. So that was some very troubling news, and that's really the biggest news of the day. We're hoping, perhaps, to get some more information at this 5:00 press conference.
Wolf.
BLITZER: Anderson, stand by for a moment. I want to get right back to you as we await this news conference. But our Brian Todd has been looking at this rescue operation and filed this report only moments ago.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Each time they come down from the mountain, the men who run this ill-fated mine give a picture of contrast. Rescue teams, two at a time, are working furiously. The drilling process is slow but steady.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Should we be successful here and make contact, we'll pull in and we'll drill a three-foot diameter hole, and then we'll try to help the men out through the hole, similar to what they did in Pennsylvania a couple years ago.
TODD: But the result hasn't changed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not since our update to you this morning, where we pounded on the drill still and received no response. We'll go through that same process when we put down drill hole number two and again when we put down drill hole number three.
TODD: Pushing into a mine that runs two miles in and 260 feet deep, rescue teams have been hampered by groundwater flow and broken ventilation structures, supports inserted between tunnels to create air passages. They found very dangerous levels of carbon monoxide earlier in the day, but they've drilled one hole completely through and have two more in the works.
And there are encouraging signs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With the drill hole that did penetrate in the face area of second left, we didn't see major combustion damage. We didn't see the equipment turned upside down. We didn't see cables burned. There was no indication of a massive disruptive explosion. That's probably the brightest spot.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And Brian Todd is joining us now on the phone. Brian, where are you in Upshur County, West Virginia?
TODD: Wolf, we are right near the center where they're going to be having this news conference. We're about 10 feet from the area. And we're just -- we're awaiting that news conference. We hope to hear more. The last we heard was that the rescue teams were more than 10,000 feet into the mine. But as we have been reporting, that the miners are believed to be between 11,000 and 13,000 feet in.
Groundwater flow, as we just said, is a problem. The robotic camera has not been able to be as functional as they had hoped. And we just hope to hear more in just a few minutes.
Wolf.
BLITZER: And Brian, I know you've spent some time with the family members who are out there. It must be so hard on them. They must be exhausted. I'm sure most of them barely slept, if they slept at all. How are they dealing?
TODD: Exceptionally well, Wolf. We just spoke to some of them a few moments ago. They are incredibly stoic people. They have lived here for generations, they know the risks involved in this business. Their lives are intertwined with the mining industry. So they are just -- you know, they're very, very aware of the risks and aware of the odds that their loved ones are facing.
You do see a couple of people breaking down here and there and being comforted by their friends and relatives, but just extraordinarily stoic and well handled by these people.
BLITZER: All right. Brian, stand by. We're going to get back to you.
Anderson Cooper is on the scene for us as well. Anderson, it must be so difficult for the authorities to walk this delicate tightrope. They don't want to give false hope to these families, yet at the same time they want to leave out the opportunity that there could be a miracle. As the governor of West Virginia keeps on saying, people in West Virginia believe in miracles.
Have you spoken to any of the authorities how they walk that really delicate line?
COOPER: Yes, it's a tough one for them. I mean, mine officials, they have been getting a lot of praise, especially yesterday, for giving as much information as they have. They hold regular press conferences not just for the media but, more importantly, really, for the family members to give them information straight from the horse's mouth.
One family member I just talked to today is getting a little bit frustrated. That may just be more general frustration with the entire situation, the fact that this thing is dragging on. But it is very difficult for mine officials.
You know, they're very careful to say, look, we're not going to go down the road of speculation, we're not going to start speculating about what caused this explosion, we're not going to speculate about what the condition of the miners might be. We're only going to give you facts, the same thing that we, of course, are trying to do.
So, you know, it is a fine road for them to walk. And they seem to be doing it thus far. We'll see again what they say during this press conference at 5:00.
BLITZER: The whole notion, though, of waiting and waiting and waiting, yesterday I spoke with one of those trapped miners from Pennsylvania in July of 2002, and he pointed out to me -- I didn't remember this -- that it wasn't until the second day, well into the second day, that they finally could hear the pounding and people began to think these guys were alive. So that certainly gave me hope to think that maybe a similar kind of rescue operation could develop right now.
COOPER: Well, if you remember the Quecreek Mine, it wasn't until that drill actually burst through, and it was a miracle that it burst through at the right exact spot. The miners actually started tapping on that drill, in the pipe that was put down in the hole. And that's how people on the surface knew that the miners were alive, hearing that tapping. There had been some hope when that first drill at this mine broke through that there might be some communication on it. There wasn't. That was, of course, viewed as bad news, but they are still very hopeful that the miners are alive, that they were able to find some sort of area of safety that whatever blast occurred, they were able to get out of the way of and found some defensive position, as they kept saying, where the air was breathable. And that's really the main hope here that is keeping these families going.
And you're right, Wolf, I mean, they have been going nonstop since this thing began. A lot of them just have not slept. They've been sitting in this area right behind me where the Red Cross is. There's a church where there's clergy members. But no matter how comfortable officials here try to make it for them, it is just miserable hour after hour, minute by minute.
BLITZER: All right, Anderson. Stand by for a moment as we await the start of this news conference. We'll get back to you very, very soon.
The governor of West Virginia say the people of the state still believe in miracles. Family and friends of the miners, even many who don't know them, have been keeping vigil, as we keep pointing out, at that nearby church, as well as elsewhere.
Meanwhile, President Bush says all of America is hopeful the miners will eventually be found safe. The president says he passed along this message to West Virginia's governor...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I told him that I appreciated the great outpouring of compassion from the West Virginia citizens toward those worried family members. I also assured him that the federal government will help the folks in West Virginia any way we can to bring those miners out of that mine, hopefully in good condition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Let's get a little closer look at the scene of this underground drama as it unfolds. For that, I'm joined by CNN's Tom Foreman. You've been studying this very closely, Tom.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We've been looking at this in terms of the mining community of this country. As you know, with every industry out there, no matter what job you work in, what community you live in, there's a certain kinship within the community. And certainly the mining industry all across the country has been watching this very closely.
Look, if you will, for a moment where coal is produced in this country. All of these blue areas are where we have significant coal deposits. Now, much of this out West really wasn't particularly developed until a few years ago, really, because a lot of it is a type of coal that produces less pollution than the older bituminous coal, which is collected mainly here. This is called sub-bituminous coal.
So this has grown up a little bit disconnected. But all of this, these areas here, particularly when you look at the heavy coal- producing states here -- Kentucky, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania -- united communities of people who know each, who know this industry very, very well.
We'll fly in and take a look at Upshur County, which is specifically the target area that we're talking about now. There it is, you see it in West Virginia. This is where we've been focusing all of our efforts now for these seemingly endless hours.
The mine in this particular area, you can see as we move in a little bit closer, you see the pictures of the church, time and again where people are waiting. This is where the church is, this little white section right up in here, where the church section is, and down here is where the mine is. So, if we turn around and take a little bit of a closer look at the mine, you can see these are sharp little hills here, and it's up in this valley that all of this work has been going on as they try to get into the mine and reach these people here.
Without question, though, in all those blue areas we showed you before, as we talked to mine people all day long today, they were looking at this, praying for the people there, and as people in the industry asking themselves, what might have happened and what investigations into the events that have happened here will reveal.
One thing that people may not know is the coal industry over the past five to 10 years, but particularly the past five years, has been through a tremendous upheaval, because in the 1990s the value of coal dropped. And a lot of smaller operators went bankrupt and they weren't able to stay in operation. And in some cases, they were bought out by bigger companies. That is the case with this mine.
The coal group, the one we've been talking about so much that owns this group right now...
BLITZER: International Coal Mining.
FOREMAN: ... International Coal Mining Group, is one of these companies that has assembled a lot of these sometimes troubled, sometimes going out of business coal mines and turned them into profitable ventures.
So, in many of these places, the arrival of a company to keep the mine going was really a savior to them. Nonetheless, what they were doing is pulling together all these little mines. It's been a tremendous upheaval in the coal business. The money has come back up into the coal business, so there's a lot of money to be made from it, but it has made people within the business aware of the volatility of it, and made them raise their own questions -- even as their safety record gets better -- are there gaps that need to be looked at? Certainly now in this case, this company will be looked at very closely and people will determine whether or not they had blame in this or not. BLITZER: I can't tell you how many people have said to me over the past day, Tom, in this day and age of high technology and super- sophisticated equipment, for coal miners to actually have to go down there physically themselves and do this kind of dangerous work, it sounds so incongruous in the way things are supposedly supposed to be done.
FOREMAN: Well -- and let's not misunderstand what's happening under the ground. There have been enormous technological changes under these mountains. Machines are doing a tremendous amount of the work that once was done by hand. And in fact, two-thirds of the coal we get in this country now is no longer taken from under the ground like this.
One of the reasons these people are below 200 feet in the ground is that's the level at which you start digging tunnels. Up to that point now, what they're going to do is scrape off the top of the earth. When it gets below that, that's when they're going to get into this.
Huge technological advantages. That's why we have not seen so many deaths and it has dropped so much in recent years and why something like this is so hard to take and so shocking.
BLITZER: It is shocking and it's painful. Thanks very much, Tom, for that.
We're standing by for the news conference. It was supposed to begin about 15 minutes ago. Reporters have gathered, photographers have gathered. We will bring it to you live, the status report on the search for these 13 trapped miners in West Virginia.
We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's go right out to Upshur County in West Virginia for the latest on the fate of those 13 coal miners.
BEN HATFIELD, PRESIDENT, INTERNATIONAL COAL GROUP: We would like to give you an update on the status of our rescue efforts.
Mine rescue teams continue to move quickly toward the second left section area where we are hopeful the missing miners are located. We've now advanced a total distance of about 11,200 feet, which is the distance from the mine portal to break number 56. At the current pace, we are hopeful that rescue crews will reach the furthest extent of the second left section within the next three to five hours.
To update you on the drilling program, both drill hole number two and drill hole number three are now completed to within 20 feet of the Sago Mine roof. The drilling advance has been suspended so as to avoid having to withdraw the rescue crews from the mine while they are making significant progress.
You may recall that as a safety precaution, before any of the drill holes penetrate the mine atmosphere, we withdraw the crews to keep them protected. And so following that precaution, we're simply holding up the drilling while the crews are moving forward quickly and making significant progress.
We will keep you posted on further developments as soon as they are known.
With that, I would be glad to take any questions.
QUESTION: The carbon monoxide levels at this time still the same?
HATFIELD: No new information on that, essentially encountering the same levels in the entries we're currently working.
QUESTION: How are you keeping the families' hopes alive that you're doing everything that's possible to get them out?
HATFIELD: It is our goal to keep hope alive while there is hope, and we don't want to discourage anyone that believes we can get there. We believe we can get there if the crew has managed to barricade themselves and kept themselves protected from the toxic fumes. Certainly, with each hour that passes, the likelihood of a successful outcome diminishes, but our effort is to move forward as quickly as we can, and we're fervently determined to do our very best to get to them.
QUESTION: In speaking with one of the family members, they talked about looking to the Quecreek Mine incident as inspiration. And they actually seemed uplifted by that. Are any of those members or the folks from that incident here counseling and talking with the family members?
HATFIELD: I do not know whether any of the Quecreek people may have come to the group. There's a large number of people gathered with the family, and just really aren't sure who may be over there. So I'm uncertain.
QUESTION: Sir, my community members want to know what they can do to help family members here and to help you. Can they bring food or drink? What can they do to help?
HATFIELD: We have been overwhelmed by the generosity of the community. The Buckhannon community has come together magnificently and has supported us. We've god food stacked up everywhere. The churches, various ladies auxiliaries, civic groups have just been overwhelming us with food. So I wouldn't think we need much food or anything of that nature. I think at this point what we need are prayers.
QUESTION: Sir, could you -- could you talk to us a bit about the training rescue teams have encountered since we last talked? Again, we're back to the question, fire damage, explosions, anything that may indicate what caused this, or the extent of the damage?
HATFIELD: The last report I had from the command center, they're still not encountering any issues with respect to debris or true explosive damage. Again, we're encountering the same kinds of issues with respect to some ventilation structures that are damaged, which would be compression or combustion -- pressure of the air, essentially, from a combustion that creates that kind of damage. But we've seen nothing that has been reported to me at this point with respect to true fire damage.
QUESTION: If I could follow that up, sir, I know you hate to do this, but I think the time has come, maybe, for some speculation on what caused this. I mean, we're not seeing anything coming from you, and I'm not saying you're not trying to give us answers. What I'm trying to say is, something that points us in a direction of the cause of this explosion, because everything seems to contradict each other -- all the indicators, fire and explosion, yet no indication of fire and explosion.
HATFIELD: The facts are unchanged from what I told you earlier. We do not know what caused this explosion. It doesn't make sense to us that the methane levels are low everywhere we go, and yet we had an explosion that seems to resemble a methane explosion.
We do not know what happened. And I think it would be a disservice to the investigation to try to speculate on what may have happened. We just don't have that information.
Everybody on -- within a mile of that mine office and the command center is just devoting 100 percent of their time to get these people out. If they are alive, while there's hope of them being alive, our energies are devoted 100 percent to that effort.
QUESTION: It's been six hours since the last briefing and it appears from my notes that you've moved 1,000 feet. It seems like something slows you down. You went from 10,200 to 11,200.
HATFIELD: It's not really slowed down. But what happens as we pass the entrance to a section, we have to go up into that section to confirm that the atmosphere is safe for the rescuers to move further in by.
So we moved past the one left section, and that caused us to have to go up into that one left panel and investigate the atmosphere before we moved further along. So it may appear that we weren't moving a great distance, but we actually did. We are now within something between a thousand and 2,000 feet of where we believe the miners are most likely located. So there's been tremendous progress made since our last update.
QUESTION: Can you explain this ventilation structure? Is it metal ductwork? What is it? And how does it work?
HATFIELD: The ventilation structures that are damaged are typically stacked concrete blocks -- sometimes they're grouted, depending on the nature of the particular application -- but stacked concrete blocks that sometimes can get blown over and do get blown over when there's a significant force of air that impacts them. So that's essentially what we're talking about. QUESTION: Can you talk about the exit strategy for when you actually do locate the miners? I've heard a couple of things about whether you'll drill a hole similar to the Pennsylvania thing, or will you be able to bring them out through the main portal?
HATFIELD: We're close enough now where we remain confident that, if they're there, and things are in good shape, then we would certainly bring them out the mine portal. It would be far faster than drilling a hole from the surface.
We have not encountered a physical impediment to moving forward from the mine portal to the two left sections. The impediment that we have encountered, the obstacles that we've encountered, have been the mine atmosphere, the toxic gases, carbon monoxide as measured at the drill hole, which tells us that it's certainly somewhere out in front of us, and we have to be careful about moving into it too quickly.
That's the impediment. So it's not a situation where you -- where you would even consider going around it with a major shaft drilled from the surface.
QUESTION: Sir, could you explain why you consider this a methane explosion? Couldn't it be a coal dust explosion that did not involve methane?
HATFIELD: Well, I didn't say it was a methane explosion. I said it resembles a methane explosion.
QUESTION: Well, why does it resemble a methane explosion, as opposed to another type of explosion?
HATFIELD: It's an easy guess simply because at the time this explosion occurred, there was no production ongoing. The production units were idle. So there was no dust being put into the air to create an ignition from our perspective for what we know now.
QUESTION: Isn't carbon monoxide combustible? Could that light the carbon monoxide in the atmosphere?
HATFIELD: I don't think so. I'm not a chemist but, no, it's a product of combustion. I don't think it's combustible.
QUESTION: How many rescuers are in the team of rescuers? And how many are in there at a given time? And what kind of suits are -- equipment are they wearing?
HATFIELD: It's always one team at a time, and they work in designated shifts. I didn't bring the staff with me that could give you the specifics on the shifts. But I believe there's five people on a team. Is that right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right.
HATFIELD: Five people on a team.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Plus some regulators. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's five people, plus usually one to three from the regulatory agencies.
HATFIELD: Right. So it's a total group of perhaps eight, with three regulators and a five-man rescue team. And they travel with fully self-contained apparatus that gives them the ability to go into a toxic environment if they have to.
QUESTION: Is it a moon suit kind of thing?
HATFIELD: Not really a moon suit as much as a full-face breathing apparatus.
QUESTION: At the point they're at now -- about 11,200 is the foot mark -- are they experiencing high levels of carbon monoxide there? And is it every so hundred feet that they go are they experiencing higher levels? Is it increasing?
HATFIELD: The last reports from the command centers, we're still seeing normalized carbon monoxide levels in the intake entries on the order of 25 to 35 parts per million. And over in the returns, we're seeing 300 to 400, again, the same pattern that we discussed earlier today.
QUESTION: Mr. Hatfield, there seems to be very little hope for the families to kind of latch on today. Not too long ago, Governor Manchin suggested that people pray for a miracle because a miracle would be what it would take to find these guys alive.
Do you share his assessment of the situation? Or do you know something that could give these families more hope than they may have at the moment?
HATFIELD: We are clearly in a situation where we need a miracle. But miracles happen.
QUESTION: At what timeframe do you have to go from the rescue mode to, say, it's going to become more of a retrieval mode? Is there a time frame of when you say, we don't know if they can survive this?
HATFIELD: Only when all hope is lost. And all hope is not yet lost. If we -- that timeframe I gave you earlier about reaching the furthest extent of the two left sections, that three to five-hour period, I believe within that timeframe we will most likely know what we're dealing with here.
QUESTION: Can you tell me -- when you say the furthest extent of the two left sections, what you think is there at this point?
HATFIELD: Well, in a perfect scenario what would be there would be a safe crew of men that have barricaded themselves in and by some ingenious manner managed to maintain a safe breathing environment. That's what we would ideally like to find. But obviously, with each hour that passes the chances of that being the outcome aren't good.
QUESTION: And at this point there are no obstacles between the point -- that point other than the noxious gases you're talking about?
HATFIELD: That's correct. There are no physical obstacles in the context of a roof fall or anything of that nature.
QUESTION: Mr. Hatfield, can you describe to us the tunnel there? It seemed like, of course, on the maps that we looked at last night, it looked rather wide. Is there a possibility you could pass these guys up on your route, that maybe they would be down another way or something like that?
HATFIELD: No, the advancement of the rescue teams is very meticulous. They cover the entire area and take atmospheric measurements at every location and take note of which ventilation structures are still standing or not. So it's a very meticulous process. And I'm confident they will make accurate observations.
QUESTION: Mr. Hatfield, have the rescue teams encountered anything along the way that would indicate that this crew passed this way?
HATFIELD: Not at this point.
QUESTION: Mr. Hatfield, our research has shown more serious safety violations in the mine from recent inspections, not just ones that, you know -- can you discuss or address the possibility that there were -- there were violations within rise to a certain threshold. But we found evidence of ones involving combustible materials, methane buildup...
HATFIELD: Again, we have no interest in getting into the finger- pointing or who's responsible for what or what went wrong a year ago. This is -- this is a mine that's operated for some significant time before my company even had involvement with it.
So much of that bad history that you're talking about was beyond our reach and ability to control. But there's been dramatic improvements, and I think the regulatory agencies will confirm that, dramatic improvement. So we continue to move forward and do our best to get our people out safely. And that's all we're focused on at this point.
QUESTION: How wide is second left?
QUESTION: When did your company take over?
HATFIELD: Pardon?
QUESTION: How wide is second left?
HATFIELD: Second left, I believe, is nine entries wide. And each center to center, the entries are about 80 feet. So you can do the math, maybe 700, 800 feet wide.
QUESTION: Mr. Hatfield, in your time in this business have you been involved with the potential of what you're facing in this mine? HATFIELD: I've never been involved with a mine disaster anywhere remotely approaching this -- this magnitude. This is a sad day for all of us.
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: Mr. Hatfield, just -- maybe I missed it earlier. If it's just noxious gases that's between the rescue crews and the men that are underground, why can't they put on moon suits and self- contained breathing apparatus and walk to the back of the face? I don't understand.
HATFIELD: That's not the -- how the process works, because, if they were to do that without being sure that they're traveling with safe intake air, there's risk of an ignition. Whatever caused the first one could happen again, because we still don't know what caused the first one. So, the risk of the crews getting so far in by the fresh air that in -- they're at risk of another ignition, another explosion is simply not a risk we can take.
QUESTION: Will you send in the robot again?
(CROSSTALK)
HATFIELD: We have had very little success with the robot. It started out well, but quickly became mired in mud and other obstacles, so it hasn't been as productive as we had hoped.
QUESTION: What were the other obstacles? Are you talking the track or the ...
HATFIELD: We're talking about the floor terrain, which proved to be a problem for this particular model. I don't know much about it. I'm not schooled in any respect with regard to these robotics.
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: The track problems had nothing to do with the explosion or ...
(CROSSTALK)
HATFIELD: No. It's not related to the explosion. It's simply the terrain of the mine floor seemed to be incompatible with what the robot needed to move forward. And that seemed to be the problem.
We will be back as soon as we have more information to give you an update. And, again, I'm hoping that we can do that somewhere in the next two to five hours. When we can come here and tell you more, we will. Thank you.
BLITZER: Ben Hatfield, the president of International Coal Mining, updating all of us on the search-and-rescue operation for those 13 trapped miners in West Virginia. It's been more than 35 hours now since an explosion caused this incident. And the search continues.
Bruce Dial is a mine expert. He's been helping us better understand lots of the technology, a lot of the search.
One thing that sparked some intrigue, when I heard him say, Bruce, Ben Hatfield, that they have now reached 11,200 feet in through that tunnel that -- that goes into that mine, and he said they need another three to five hours to complete the process. We will know more in three to five hours. What did that mean to you?
BRUCE DIAL, COAL MINING SAFETY EXPERT: It means that the rescue teams are making progress, but as usual, they are moving slowly so there's no danger to themselves.
And also, it would probably take about another three to five hours to get the information out of the other drill holes that they're using.
BLITZER: So, what will we know in three to five hours?
DIAL: Well, when these other holes are down, they will be able to tell if those areas of the mines have high carbon monoxide or oxygen, low oxygen, or maybe even, with the cameras they put down, they will be able to see the miners.
BLITZER: But we won't necessarily know for sure the fate of the 13 miners, or will we?
DIAL: It's possible that we could, but it doesn't mean we will, that they -- if they're able to see them or see evidence of where they have barricaded their self in, at least they will know where they are at. Then the mine rescue teams could go directly -- more directly right to them.
BLITZER: Is there a scenario, a realistic scenario, that, in that area, more than 11,000 feet into this tunnel, there could be some pockets where they could breathe, some catacombs, as they're called, where they might be able to entrench themselves and ride this out until rescue workers can get close to them?
DIAL: Yes, it's possible. The ventilation system is set up throughout the mine to go through the whole mine. If, during the explosion, it knocked out some of the walls that control the direction of the ventilation, it might allow gases to build up in one part of the mine, but another part of the mine still could have proper ventilation.
BLITZER: And he was very specific in talking about the carbon monoxide, the ratio of how much is there that would make it hazardous to someone's health. And it was, obviously, tiny numbers, but tiny and -- but big enough to spell the difference between life and death.
DIAL: Yes. I think the first drill hole, they found right about 1,300 parts per million of carbon monoxide. The fatal dosage of carbon monoxide is right about 400 parts per million for a 15-minute time. So, it's close to three times the lethal limit.
BLITZER: So, the search will continue. And I -- I also thought it was interesting, Bruce -- and correct me if I am wrong -- that they think -- and let's hope they find these 13 miners alive and well -- that they would not emerge as the other miners, the nine miners in Somerset, Pennsylvania, who were brought up through that drill, but they would be able to come out through the actual tunnel.
DIAL: Yes, they will be able to walk out with the mine rescue team.
BLITZER: All right, Bruce, stand by. I want to continue this analysis of what we have just heard, try to digest some of the specifics.
But we did hear -- we did hear that, three to five hours from now, we should know a lot more about the fate of these 13 miners. Bruce, stand by. We're going to go back to the scene in Upshur County, West Virginia.
We will take a quick break. Much more of our coverage here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
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BLITZER: We just heard from Ben Hatfield, chief executive of International Coal Group, say that they have managed to get in about 11,200 feet. That's more than two miles into that tunnel. They have another three to five hours to go before they reach the area where -- the specific area where these 13 trapped miners were believed to be the last time that they were spotted, before that explosion.
Brian Todd was at the news conference inside that room. He's joining us on the phone right now. I'm still a little confused about what we will know, Brian, between now and three to five hours from now. Do you have a better sense?
TODD: Wolf, the sense we're getting is that they believe they're three to five hours away from possibly reaching the area where these miners are located.
You can measure it in feet as well. As you mentioned, they're 11,200 feet in. That's about 1,000 more feet in than they were when they briefed us about four-and-a-half, five hours ago. And they believe they're about 1,000 to 2,000 feet from where the miners are located. So, they're -- I mean, they're projecting here three to five hours of more drilling and pressing in by the rescue teams to try to get to where these miners are.
They -- they do mention obstacles that they are encountering, no physical obstacles, no roof cave-ins, no debris, no signs of a fire. What their problem is now, they say, are toxic gases, like carbon monoxide still around. And they say that the monoxide is still at fairly manageable levels. But they're very cautious, because they believe that carbon monoxide, if these men are injured, could have been the thing that injured them. BLITZER: Those rescue teams that are going into that tunnel -- and they're 11,200 feet into that tunnel right now -- are they wearing gas masks? Do you know, Brian?
TODD: They're wearing all sorts of protective equipment, Wolf. Gas masks are part of it. I don't know exactly the details of what they're wearing. But it is very, very protective equipment. They have training that regular coal miners don't have, and that emergency rescue teams don't have. They have very, very specialized training. They can only stay in there for a very limited amount of time.
They have five-man teams, sometimes as many as eight men, if they send a federal official to monitor them. But they -- that's why this has been so slow going. The teams can progress fairly -- only very slowly, because of the danger of carbon monoxide poisoning at this point.
BLITZER: And are they removing the debris as they move -- inch closer and closer to where these 13 miners are believed to be?
TODD: Well, it -- that's where we get a picture of contrasts here, Wolf. They say they are -- debris does not seem to be an issue for them. They say that there is no debris that is presenting any obstacles to them. You would think that, if that were the case, that they would be able to walk right in there.
But apparently, the presence of these gases is such a concern that they feel that they cannot progress like that. They have to drill in certain areas of the mountain. In other areas, the rescue team workers try to get in there. But it is the noxious gases that they're saying right now are their main obstacles.
BLITZER: Three to five hours from now, that would be about 8:30 p.m. Eastern until 10:30 p.m. Eastern, if, in fact, that holds true. We will stay on top of this story here on CNN.
Brian, stand by.
The Red Cross is in West Virginia, providing items like blankets and large tents for the many who have gathered near the scene.
Norman Green is a volunteer with the Red Cross who is there right now. What's it like, Norman?
NORMAN GREEN, RED CROSS VOLUNTEER: Good evening. We're currently helping out the families, as we are progressing with the information we are getting. The information has been pretty slim. Just the information you just heard, prior to this -- prior to me coming on the air, has been about the most news we have heard in about a couple hours. And I will be taking some of that news back with me to talk with the families.
BLITZER: How are the families coping?
GREEN: I would call it guarded optimism. They are holding out, in hopes that they will find them. It would be foolish not to, but they are really -- they are really stressed out right now. They have been sitting on this edge, waiting for these people to be found for quite a long time. Every minute seems like an hour for their loved one. And it just wears on. And any time you come in with any news, you know, half of them are breaking down and crying. And it's very normal.
BLITZER: I know the Red Cross not only provides tents and water and blankets, but, also, very often in these kind of situations, psychological help. Are you doing that as well?
GREEN: Yes. The -- we're providing -- we have -- up on the hill, we actually have a -- we have a portable feeding unit up there. The Salvation Army brought in a portable feeding unit. They're helping. We have a feeding unit in the church, which is working.
And the mental health experts are going throughout this. They pretty much -- every family has a mental health and a minister with them, either from their denomination or whatever. And everyone is keeping an eye on them. They're -- they're walking through the scenarios. Like, earlier today, I saw a minister take one -- take a young man who is like, maybe 10, and they went for a walk. And they just had a talk about where his father was, and what's going on, and what he can expect to see as the evening progresses.
BLITZER: Norman Green is a volunteer with the American Red Cross. Thanks for your work.
Good luck to everyone out in West Virginia. Thank you, Norman, very much.
And we're not going to leave this story for very long, but I want to check in with Lou Dobbs, who is getting ready for his program. It begins right at the top of the hour. Lou?
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Right, Wolf. Thank you. Coming up at the top of the hour here on CNN, we will be following, of course, the latest developments in the West Virginia mine disaster.
Also tonight, what could end up being the biggest corruption scandal in Washington in decades, how special interest groups are spending billions of dollars trying to overturn the will of the people and to buy favors from members of Congress and top government officials. Is this the best government that money can buy?
We will also tonight have the very latest on the Able Danger controversy, whether the September 11 attacks could have been prevented.
And, tonight, I will be joined by one county sheriff who says enough is enough to illegal aliens.
All of that, and more, coming up at 6:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN. Please join us.
Now back to you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Lou. Good to have you back. Happy new year to you as well.
DOBBS: Thanks. BLITZER: Lou Dobbs reporting.
And we will take a quick break. When we come back, we will have more on those 13 trapped miners.
Also, another very important story we have been following here on CNN, Jack Abramoff, the prominent lobbyist, cops a plea today. We will tell you the implications.
Stay with us.
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BLITZER: It reads like the script to a Hollywood political thriller, an A-list Washington lobbyist linked to some of the most powerful politicians in the nation's capital, pleading guilty to breaking the law in dealings with lawmakers. Now many Republicans and some Democrats are worried, hoping the lobbyist won't mention their names. That lobbyist is Jack Abramoff.
Our congressional correspondent Ed Henry is here with more. Ed, he's largely associated with Republicans, but there are some Democrats who potentially could be implicated as well.
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. In fact, this is the kind of thing where lawmakers in both parties are scurrying around town. They're trying to give back money that Abramoff may have given to him. They just don't want anything to do with this guy right now.
He used to be a high-flying lobbyist, as you say, mostly with the Republicans. But he had high-level contacts on the Democratic side as well. Everybody wanted his money a couple years ago, everybody. He was running around town. He owned a restaurant. He had skyboxes at the MCI Center. He was giving out sporting tickets to lawmakers in both parties, to staffers in both parties.
Now they're under the microscope. In fact -- in addition to Abramoff -- in fact, one government official telling CNN that as many as two dozen lawmakers and staffers in both parties being examined by the Justice Department in this widening investigation.
And in terms of people giving back money to try to run from Abramoff, CNN has just learned that the Republican speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert, has decided to now give about $70,000 in Abramoff-related campaign money, give that money to charity. It's a sign that, across the board, these lawmakers just don't want anything to do with him.
He was giving out these gifts to lawmakers. And in the plea deal that he signed today, he pled guilty to three different counts. In the plea deal, the Justice Department basically alleges that some public officials in the Bush administration and on Capitol Hill then did the bidding of some of Abramoff's clients. That hasn't been proven yet -- a lot of these lawmakers denying wrongdoing. But this is still unfolding.
Wolf.
BLITZER: So, who is sweating it out the most?
HENRY: Well, I can tell you, one name that always comes up, obviously, is Tom DeLay. He's the former House majority leader who is very close to Jack Abramoff, used him to raise money and whatnot. But DeLay, again, has insisted throughout this, no wrong -- you know, absolutely no wrongdoing. And time will tell. He's not mentioned at all, it's important to point out, in this plea deal.
But a name that does get mentioned in this plea deal today is Republican Bob Ney of Ohio. He very clearly has been linked to Abramoff. He says he was duped by Abramoff; he was misled; he did nothing wrong as well. But, in this plea deal, it mentions a trip to Scotland that Bob Ney took with Jack Abramoff to play some golf -- that trip still getting a lot of scrutiny.
Then, you have Republican Senator Conrad Burns of Montana, got all kinds of money from Abramoff, Abramoff-related clients. He has now given that money back. He even said in the last week or so, he wishes Jack Abramoff had never been born, a sign that, while these lawmakers used to love having him around, they want nothing to do with him right now.
Burns is up for reelection in Montana later this year. His poll numbers have plummeted as all these stories have come out about his extensive ties with Abramoff. He's somebody who is certainly sweating.
Now, there's a Democrat who Republicans keep bringing up, Senator Byron Dorgan of North Dakota. He is somebody who has been leading this investigation in the Senate of Jack Abramoff. He recently gave back some money that was given to him. His office points out that it was actually money that Abramoff's clients gave, not maybe directly from Abramoff. Dorgan says he has never met Abramoff. He doesn't know anything about Abramoff himself. But it's a sign that both sides are taking a close look at all of this money.
And, finally, you're going to -- you're going to see Democrats using this as an issue to say, this is another sign, in their eyes, that there's a culture of corruption in Washington. And they want to throw the Republicans out of power.
Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. Thanks very much, Ed Henry, for that thorough report. Ed Henry, our congressional correspondent.
The "New York Times" reporter who first came out with the story about domestic eavesdropping now has come out with his own book. It has more to do with U.S. spying around the world. But does the book get it all necessarily right?
Let's turn to our national security correspondent, David Ensor, who has been reading this book. David? DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, the -- former U.S. intelligence officials and other knowledgeable officials say, in 2004, a CIA official at headquarters mistakenly sent a spy in Iran, a U.S. agent, a message and information that could help identify many other U.S. agents there.
That was one of the revelations in Jim Risen's new book, "State of War," which went on bookshelves today. But the book goes on to say that Iranian intelligence got hold of the information and used it to roll up the CIA's agent network throughout Iran. And that, say both present and former officials, is simply not correct.
Sources say a damage assessment, a scrub done a year after the mistake was made in late summer of 2005, found that no agents have been arrested or jailed as result of the error, though the Jim book says several of them were. And sources say none have been arrested or jailed because of it since then either.
Now, this information was sent, sources say, by high-speed encrypted transmission by mistake. It apparently included some brief information about other agents, though not their names or identities. And that technical glitch was a little like someone sending an email containing coded email addresses of others that he didn't mean to send to that person, not necessarily who they are. So far, it seems as if no harm done there, Wolf.
But the CIA has put out a statement this afternoon on the book, in which the spokes -- the spokeswoman says, readers deserve to know that every chapter of "State of War" contains serious inaccuracies.
Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, we will continue to watch this for our viewers as well. Thanks very much, David Ensor, reporting.
We will take a quick break. When we come back, we will go back out to West Virginia for the latest on the search for those 13 coal miners.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: This is a very grueling ordeal for the family and the friends of those 13 trapped miners in West Virginia.
CNN's Kimberly Osias is on the scene for us there. She's joining us now live with more on this story. How are they coping, Kimberly?
KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, I will tell you, the church normally holds 300 people. It's packed, about 400 or 500 or so. Now, the media is actually cordoned off, not allowed to enter there. That is really a -- sort of a safe haven, if you will, for these families.
But I have been speaking with them. And what they tell me is, really, the tide has turned. There's been a tremendous amount of sadness. Now it has really shifted to anger, anger at the International Coal Group, the company, saying they are not giving them answers fast enough, and they are not doing enough down there.
Now, this is very interesting. Of course, those that have been following this story know that there were six miners that did escape yesterday to safety after that explosion. They were able to get out. Well, I am told by one of the family members that I spoke to that one of those men actually saw a ball of fire and actually was almost blinded by it and still hasn't recovered.
But he is so angry at these folks for what he believes is sort of dragging their feet, that he wants to get back down in that mine. Now, of course, these folks are very highly trained. And the other miners can't just go in there.
I also spoke to another family member who knows Fred Ware, Marty Bennett, and Junior Hamner. And they say, obviously, you know, as these hours tick on, it just seems like an eternity.
Wolf.
BLITZER: And are they getting counseling? Are there ministers? Are there people there who are helping them cope with this horrible ordeal?
OSIAS: Yes. And as they come outside -- I mean, when they had these outbursts, you know, they were reminded, look, this is a house of God. Take it outside. As they go outside, they sort of take a walk. And some of these families, you know, are going through all different phases of emotions, you know, obviously, a range.
There are counselors on hand. They are ready to -- to sit down and speak with them. I spoke to one woman who had availed herself of that opportunity. And obviously, I mean, these are sort of rollercoaster emotions that these families, as you can well imagine, are feeling right now.
BLITZER: Kimberly Osias reporting from the scene, we will continue to watch the story with you. Kimberly, thank you very much.
Abbi Tatton is checking for the latest on this horrible situation online. What are you picking up, Abbi?
ABBI TATTON, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Wolf, what we know about the Sago Mine online here at the Mine Safety and Health Administration, the history of accidents there. If you zoom in, you will see that injuries are up in the last couple of years, 14 last year, up from eight the year before. Also, information on inspections that were taking place there over the last couple of years. Over 15 inspections there last year, that's not unusual. These mines are inspected regularly. But the number of citations received during these inspections in on the high end here. Look, 70 citations in one of the inspections that took place last year.
Now, if you're keeping up with this story online, you will want to check out CNN's new service here, Pipeline. It lets you watch video on demand on your computer. You can see all our feeds there relating to the mine incident.
Wolf.
BLITZER: Abbi Tatton, reporting for us, thanks very much.
CNN Pipeline, something you should definitely check out. You will be interested. If you're interested in the news, getting all the latest information, go to CNN.com/Pipeline to check it out.
Remember, we are in THE SITUATION ROOM weekdays, 4:00 to 6:00 p.m. Eastern. We are back one hour from now, 7:00 p.m. Eastern. We will go back live to West Virginia.
Lou Dobbs getting ready to pick up our coverage. Lou?
DOBBS: Wolf, thank you very much.
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