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The Situation Room
Al Qaeda's Number Two Man May be Dead; Cell Phone Records for Sale; Exclusive Interview with First Lady Laura Bush
Aired January 13, 2006 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR, THE SITUATION ROOM: And welcome to THE SITUATION ROOM where we're following an important breaking news story. We want to welcome our international viewers as well.
We begin with word that Osama bin Laden's right-hand man, potentially, may be dead. Our National Security Correspondent David Ensor has more on this story.
Ayman Al-Zawahiri, the number two of Osama bin Laden, David, what are we learning?
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, knowledgeable sources are telling us, are confirming reports that a CIA strike against a building in a small village in Pakistan, near the Afghan border, may -- I repeat, may -- have killed Ayman Al-Zawahiri, the number two man in Al Qaeda.
He was the target, according to my sources. They say there was good intelligence, suggesting that he might have been in one of the buildings that was struck earlier today. This was in the village of Domedola (ph), a small village up on the Pakistani border.
All day we've been hearing about this air strike, that villagers said had taken place there. No comment at all during the day from the CIA or from Defense Department about who might have done this. But our sources now tell us it was a CIA ordered strike against this building.
And right now, as we speak, Pakistani officials and others are checking to figure out whether or not Zawahiri is among one of those killed. The report said about 18 were killed. There have been reports that possibly as many as five might have been Al Qaeda personnel -- Wolf.
BLITZER: And they have recovered those bodies and they're doing the forensic tests, I take it, in the next day or two to definitively determine who was killed?
ENSOR: Well, presumably, yes. My sources say that every measure is being taken to try to assure whether or not Zawahiri was one of those killed, and obviously they're very much hoping that he was.
BLITZER: This was an area where Al Qaeda, Ayman Al-Zawahiri was suspected to be operating from. Do we know what aircraft was used? Was this one of the pilotless drones, one of the Hellfire missiles used or conventional warplane?
ENSOR: I'm afraid I haven't got a confirmed report I can give you what kind of aircraft was used at this point, Wolf.
BLITZER: Let's give our viewers some perspective on Ayman al- Zawahiri. We heard from him in only recent days, another videotape came out, a very elaborate videotape. Over the past year we haven't heard anything from Osama bin Laden but repeatedly these videotapes have coming up through Al Jazeera and other sources, Ayman Al- Zawahiri, suggesting to some analysts in effect he had become -- he had become the real leader of Al Qaeda.
ENSOR: Clearly there's a great deal of interest in getting him on the part of U.S. intelligence. It is interesting to note this attempt to kill him occurred shortly after a tape came out. You have to figure it is possible that U.S. intelligence has found a way to track back the passage of that tape from where it ended up, which was Al Jazeera, back to where Mr. Al-Zawahiri made the tape presumably up on the border area, up there.
So, in any case my sources tell me they had "good reporting", as they call it, indicating Zawahiri was in one of the buildings struck in this attack. You will recall, I think, that in the last couple of days there's been at least one other mysterious attack along that border area. So clearly there may be other actions under way, there may be further actions that we can expect in the coming hours and days, Wolf?
BLITZER: I've been told over the past several years, and I sort of get conflicting assessments, but by and large the conventional assessment is Ayman Al-Zawahiri, the number two to Osama bin Laden, usually travels in a separate place from Osama bin Laden, himself. If they're traveling, they're not traveling together.
I don't know what the latest intelligence analysis that you've picked up on this, but if you have got anything on that, share it with our viewers.
ENSOR: My understanding is obviously we've got the pictures. We know they did meet for a period of time after 9/11, but yes, as you say, officials have told me the intelligence they had at least at one point was that the two men were seldom together, if at all.
Obviously it's safer for them to keep -- more likely one of them will survive if they are not in the same place.
BLITZER: Assuming that he's dead, let's say that they got him, and there's no confirmation that they got him. It's potentially -- this is what we're reporting -- he may have been among those killed in this air strike, but what does that mean in terms of the big picture, the Al Qaeda war against the U.S., and others?
ENSOR: Well, you know, it's a very important strike against Al Qaeda. While people talk about how bin Laden and Zawahiri are irrelevant, frankly speaking, it would be a terrific victory for those opposed to Al Qaeda, for the West, if they did get Al-Zawahiri. His tapes have been coming out with impunity. He gives direction to toes who support Al Qaeda, as to where they should hit, so has bin Laden. And those directions have been followed. When they said strike against a particular place, often, that has what has happened. So, this would be a very important victory for the United States. And for the West, if they have gotten rid of Zawahiri, who was sort of the mastermind, kind of the brains of the operation, in the central Al Qaeda leadership.
But that said, we should stress to our viewers, Wolf, even if Zawahiri is gone, even if they get bin Laden, in the next couple of weeks it doesn't seem, to most of the analyst, both in and out of -- that I talk to -- as if Al Qaeda will be gone. It has mutated. It has become an ideology. There are many other groups that are following that ideology that wish to do harm to the United States and its friends.
So, the battle against extreme Islamist terrorism would most certainly not be over but it would be a very significant step.
BLITZER: David, stand by for a moment. Our CNN Terrorism Analyst Peter Bergen is joining us on the phone.
Peter, let me read to you from an Associated Press dispatch from Domedola (ph) in Pakistan, that was filed earlier before suspicions were suggested that Ayman Al-Zawahiri may have been among those killed.
Let me read the lead of the AP dispatch: "Weeping villagers dug through the rubble of homes, destroyed in an apparent pre-dawn air strike that killed at least 17 people, in a remote Pakistani tribal village Friday. The second such unexplained attack near the volatile Afghan border within a week."
We have video we're showing, Peter, of this scene, the aftermath of this air strike. Ayman Al-Zawahiri may -- repeat -- may have been among those killed. This is what David Ensor is reporting. Give our viewers some perspective.
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: In terms of Ayman Al- Zawahiri's importance to Al Qaeda?
BLITZER: If, in fact, he is among those who are dead.
BERGEN: I mean, as David said this would be incredibly significant. You know, bin Laden and Ayman Al-Zawahiri really created Al Qaeda, the organization. As David also said, Al Qaeda, the ideological movement is alive and well and obviously will not be necessarily affected by one person's death.
However, I think it would -- it's a very important psychological victory in the war on terrorism, Ayman Al-Zawahiri, to some degree, provided much of the ideological ballast for Al Qaeda. He is the leader of this Egyptian Jihad group. He's been involved in terrorist activities since he was 16 years old. He was involved in, on the periphery of the Sadat assassination back in 1981. His group, the Egyptian Jihad group was part and parcel of Al Qaeda, supplied many of its leaders, it's military commanders, many of its most effective terrorists. So, this would be, I think, a pretty big deal.
BLITZER: And he was directly involved, together with Osama bin Laden, in the planning of 9/11.
BERGEN: No doubt. I mean, CNN, you may remember, the Tehran tape series when we broadcast the press conference they had in May of 1998; bin Laden, Ayman Al-Zawahiri, and the then-military commander Mohammed Atta, were sitting at a table and announcing -- you know, planning to do some, to attack the United States. Clearly, you know, bin Laden and Ayman Al-Zawahiri have been joined at the hip since 1986.
They first met in Paschala (ph), Pakistan, at that time. Ayman Al-Zawahiri, who as you know is a surgeon, was working in Paschala (ph), in a hospital helping Afghan refugees. He met bin Laden. Bin laden, sadly, was somebody that impressed Zawahiri because he had a lot of money. And I think bin Laden was impressed by Zawahiri because he really had the Jihadist and terrorist credentials that bin Laden really didn't have.
Bear in mind when they first met Zawahiri had already spent three years in an Egyptian jail, had been involved on the periphery of the Sadat assassination, had already founded a Jihadist group. Bin laden, who was a relatively younger man, probably about a three or four-year age difference, Ayman Al-Zawahiri slightly older, somebody who came from a very distinguished family in Egypt, his father -- grandfather had been a rector of an important university in Egypt. His family is full of diplomats, really from the Egyptian upper class, somebody who speaks excellent English.
You may remember the footage of Ayman Al-Zawahiri, where he is talking at the Sadat assassination trial. He really became the spokesman for the 300 prisoners in the trial, speaking to the press in excellent English about the conditions in the prison. And I think that Ayman Al-Zawahiri and bin Laden have had an important symbiotic relationship. And this would be, I think, a terrific blow to Al Qaeda, the organization.
BLITZER: Now, let me just recap, Peter, for our viewers, you may just be tuning in. Our David Ensor, our national security correspondent is now reporting that a U.S. air strike against a remote village in Pakistan, along the Afghan border, that killed more than a dozen people, that there are reports suggesting that al Qaeda's number two man, Ayman al-Zawahiri, the top deputy to Osama bin Laden, may -- repeat may -- have been among those killed.
There are bodies that have been retrieved by Pakistani authorities. They're going through forensic evidence right now to determine. Remember, this is a very remote part of Pakistan, one of these tribal areas and it's going to take some time to clarify these reports but there is a possibility, according to our sources, that Ayman al-Zawahiri may have been targeted and may, in fact, have been in this location.
Peter Bergen, what are the chances that Ayman al-Zawahiri was traveling with Osama bin Laden?
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: I just don't know the answer to that question. You know, these aren't dumb people so probably they would, you know, not want to be in the same location or -- at any moment, but on the other hand, they certainly would be in close touch.
I mean, this is a friendship and an alliance that stretches back to two decades. So I think that Osama bin Laden and Ayman al- Zawahiri, I'm sure, are in some way communicating, and have communicated in the past in the post-9/11 time period.
I mean, I guess one note of caution here is you may remember that the Pakistanis at one point said that they had Ayman al-Zawahiri surrounded in Waziristan along the border. So, I mean, I think reports, obviously, from Pakistan can sometimes not pan out.
BLITZER: That's a fair caution. I remember those earlier reports when they thought they had him. They thought they had him cornered as well.
David Ensor is our national security correspondent and, David, I want us to be precise with our viewers. We -- based on the sources that you have, you believe and your sources believe, that Ayman al- Zawahiri may have been targeted but you don't know whether or not he was among those killed.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: That's correct. Knowledgeable sources are saying to me that this air strike was targeting Ayman al-Zawahiri, the number two man in al Qaeda, among others. But they do not have confirmation, at this point, as to whether they successfully got him.
And after all, he's an elusive person. As Peter said, the reports out of Pakistan are not always correct. However, this is U.S. sources saying that he was targeted. But stressing they don't know if they got him or not.
There will be forensics without any question. I would be surprised if there were not American personnel in the area or near where the strike occurred, helping the Pakistanis with their effort to figure out who is among the dead.
So this could be a very major development in the battle against al Qaeda, but we have to be cautious. It could be that Zawahiri will live to fight another day or to put out tapes for another day, should we say.
BLITZER: All right, David, stand by.
Peter Bergen, when you met with Osama bin Laden way back in Afghanistan -- what was that, 1998?
BERGEN: Ninety-seven.
BLITZER: Ninety-seven. Was Ayman al-Zawahiri there?
BERGEN: No, he wasn't. I mean, if he was he was, he was keeping a low profile. Really the first time he came into public view was when John Miller interviewed bin Laden for ABC News in the May of '98. At the same time, al Qaeda had this press conference in which they sort of went public with plans to attack the United States.
Bear in mind, at one point Ayman al-Zawahiri was imprisoned in Russian, in -- he was traveling towards Chechnya in the '96, '97 time period and actually was picked up and imprisoned for a period of time.
So he may well -- at the time that we had interviewed bin Laden, he may well have actually been in a Russian jail. The Russians didn't know who they had imprisoned. Obviously, Ayman al-Zawahiri was traveling under a false name at that time.
BLITZER: And remind our viewers, Peter -- and I'll let David weigh in on this as well -- that letter, I believe from Ayman al- Zawahiri to the top al Qaeda terrorist in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, where he cautioned him and gave him some advice. Remind our viewers the thrust of what was in that message.
BERGEN: It basically was -- if this letter was authentic, and there has been some debate about that, but certainly senior U.S. government officials believe it is authentic -- Zawahiri is warning Zarqawi that, you know, herding civilians as Zarqawi has an unpleasant habit of doing so, is really alienating support and that he should not go down the path of alienated popular support by these very violent tactics.
And I think al Qaeda, as a general proposition, also is not interested in -- the al Qaeda leadership is not interested in the general proposition of cementing a Sunni-Shia war in Iraq as Zarqawi is constantly trying to do. So Zawahiri unbelievably, almost acting as sort of an elder statesman of jihad and saying, you know, you've got to sort of ratchet back the terrorist tactics in Iraq.
BLITZER: Peter, stand by. David, stand by as well because we're going to continue our coverage. This is breaking news we are following of the Egyptian physician. The number two al Qaeda leader, Ayman al-Zawahiri, may -- may -- have been killed in a U.S. air strike in a remote village in Pakistan near the Afghan border. We're watching the story. Much more coming up.
Also we're watching other important stories. Spying on your cell phone records. You can find out how anyone can pay $100 to see exactly who you're talking to and why cell phone companies have no clue, at least yet, how to stop it.
An eighth grader is shot in his own school by a SWAT team that thought he had a real gun. We'll tell you how the boy is doing and what went so horribly wrong.
And our CNN exclusive -- the first lady, Laura Bush. Find out which woman she'd like to see in the White House. She spoke with our Zain Verjee earlier today over at the White House. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back to THE SITUATION ROOM. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Want to welcome our viewers around the world as well. We're following breaking news, the possibility that al Qaeda's number two leader, Ayman al-Zawahiri, may have been killed in a U.S. air strike in Pakistan.
Our national security correspondent David Ensor has got some details. David, recap, tell our viewers what we know.
ENSOR: Wolf, knowledgeable sources tell CNN that the CIA got what it believed was good reporting that Ayman al-Zawahiri, the number two man in al Qaeda, might be in one of the buildings that was hit earlier, and as a result of that, ordered up an air strike against this village of Damadola, some specific buildings in the village.
And they are now checking -- obviously, the Pakistanis are doing most of this -- whether or not Zawahiri was among those killed. Now, the reports -- the wire reports out of Pakistan say about 18 people may have been killed. There are also reports that five of them might have been al Qaeda personnel.
So obviously, a great deal of interest tonight in forensics and other information that might help determine whether or not Ayman al- Zawahiri, the mastermind some people say of al Qaeda, the number two man, is indeed dead tonight.
BLITZER: All right. David, stand by for a moment.
Nic Robertson, our senior international correspondent, is in New York tonight. He spent a lot of time in Pakistan in this area along the border with Afghanistan.
Nic, give us your thoughts, as you hear David's reporting, quoting knowledgeable U.S. sources that Ayman al-Zawahiri was targeted by the U.S. and may, repeat may, have been killed.
NIC ROBERTSON, SR. INTL. CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, we know this is exactly the sort of area right along the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan where U.S. forces and the Pakistani Army have been hunting al-Zawahiri. Also, they believe the possibility of Osama bin Laden being in the same area.
This news now is perhaps no surprise that a building in this area has been targeted. Obviously, the checks need to be made to discover whether or not Zawahiri is among the dead in the building.
But the very fact that this is the area that's been targeted right along the border, a remote location in a tribal region that is beyond the reach essentially, the normal reach, of the Pakistani Government, the tribal area is not under direct Pakistani government control, is sort of no surprise that could be the type of place he may have been hiding, Wolf.
BLITZER: I've asked this question. I've been told over the past couple of years that it's unlikely that Ayman al-Zawahiri travels together with his boss, Osama bin Laden, but you've covered this story for a long time.
I asked the question, because if they were targeting Ayman al- Zawahiri and they killed five al Qaeda operatives, and those are big ifs, is it possible Osama bin Laden might have been in that house together with Ayman al-Zawahiri?
ROBERTSON: Wolf, it seems that common sense would say that the two men would not be spending time under the same roof to avoid exactly this sort of thing happening, or the potential for both of them being killed.
At the same time, I think if you look back about a year ago when Ayman al-Zawahiri and Osama bin Laden released video messages, they came almost back-to-back with a separation of a couple of weeks. And it sort of gave the indication that perhaps the two of them were still relatively close, perhaps not immediately physically, but they were in contact.
That they worked out when Ayman al-Zawahiri's video message got out, he wasn't captured immediately after. It was safe for Osama bin Laden to do that.
So I think that it's reasonable to think that they communicate, that they're not too far apart, but it would seem to me to be unlikely that both would be under the same roof at the same time to avoid both of them being killed together.
BLITZER: Nic, stand by.
Peter Bergen is still on the phone with us, our CNN terrorism analyst, who met with Osama bin Laden back in 1997 in Afghanistan.
I just want to recap this one potential thought. If, in fact, Ayman al-Zawahiri is dead, and it's a big if right now, Peter, what would it do to the al Qaeda operations worldwide against the U.S. and other targets?
BERGEN: I think it would be a fairly major blow to the al Qaeda organization. You know, the al Qaeda ideological movement I think would continue. The al Qaeda organization has taken a number of hits.
We've arrested -- the United States has arrested and the Pakistanis have arrested a number of the senior leaders of al Qaeda, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the operational commander of 9/11 and several others. But none of these people are as important as Ayman al- Zawahiri and Osama bin Laden.
I would say that Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri are, you know, an order of magnitude more important than anybody we've captured so far. So I think that speaks for itself.
BLITZER: And these guys were the guys responsible for the 9/11 attack.
Our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr is checking with her sources.
What are you picking up, Barbara?
BARBARA STARR, PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, officially Pentagon officials, senior officials, are declining all comment on this matter.
Now, you know, let's be very clear. If this attack did take place, if it was a missile from a predator aircraft, it would have been a CIA missile, because U.S. military troops would be an extraordinary event for them to cross into Pakistani air space.
But behind the scenes within the last several minutes we have talked to officials who are tracking the whole al Qaeda issue very closely, and we've asked them for a readout on where they think things stand right now. There had been a number of recent indicators, we are told, about the status of both bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri.
Now, let's be very clear, these are intelligence indicators, and it is reports that the intelligence community, the military community, is looking into, as opposed to proven, true facts. They are still looking into all of this.
But what our sources are telling us is that, within the last weeks to months, but the last several weeks, there had been reports of Zawahiri's location in certain areas near the border with Afghanistan. One official describing it to me a few moments ago as pinpoint locations. That is something that they were looking into.
And perhaps most extraordinary, Wolf, they say that they've had indicators in recent weeks and months that both bin Laden and Zawahiri may have occasionally crossed the border back into Afghanistan to meet with members of the Taliban, to meet with members of the former regime, to try and restart the network there.
They are looking into these indicators. They believe these were very brief encounters, but it may have been a clue as to what both of them were up to.
BLITZER: Barbara Starr stand by. Barbara Starr is our Pentagon correspondent. We have all of our correspondents working this potentially very significant story.
An attack targeting al Qaeda's number two man, Ayman al-Zawahiri. An attack that resulted in several people dead, unclear whether or not the number two man in al Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri, the Egyptian physician, as he's known, whether or not he was among those dead. They're checking forensic evidence right now. We'll continue to watch this story.
Also a CNN exclusive, the first lady of the United States, Laura Bush. Find out which woman she'd like to see as president of the United States , and how she feels when her husband is personally attacked. Zain Verjee's interview with Laura Bush. That's coming up as well.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back to THE SITUATION ROOM.
To our viewers in the United States and around the world we're following a potentially very significant story. A CIA air strike in Pakistan along the border with Afghanistan, a small village there. A house was targeted.
A house targeted that U.S. sources suspect may have included Ayman al-Zawahiri, the number two al Qaeda leader, Osama bin Laden's top deputy. Unclear, unclear whether or not he was killed in the attack. No confirmation he was killed only that he was targeted, that the U.S. believes that there was good information, good information, to believe he may have been in that building at the time of the strike.
Pakistani officials right now going through the area. They have got the bodies, and they are going to try to determine whether or not al Qaeda's number two man, Ayman al-Zawahiri, who together with Osama bin Laden was responsible for 9/11, the attacks here in the United States, whether or not he is dead.
We'll continue to watch this story. Much more on it coming up here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
There's another important story we have for you today in THE SITUATION ROOM as well. The First Lady of the United States Laura Bush usually tries to keep her political views to herself, at least when reporters are around. Sometimes, though, she surprises all of us.
Mrs. Bush offered something of a 2008 presidential campaign endorsement, a little bit, when she sat down with Zain Verjee, for an exclusive wide-ranging interview at the White House. Zain is here in Washington. She's joining us now with more.
Zain?
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, as you said, the first lady talked about who she'd like to see commander in chief after her husband leaves office. She also spoke about a subject close to her heart, the importance of educating girls in Africa, and elsewhere.
We started talking about her upcoming trip to Liberia and this was our conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VERJEE: Thank you so much for this interview. Why is it so important for you to attend the inauguration ceremony of Ellen Johnson Serlie (ph)?
LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I think it's a very, very historical time Liberia, of course. And really for the whole continent of Africa to have woman president. Liberia just has had 14 years of civil war, of a lot of problems and they just ended up with a really good, competitive and fair election, and it's really thrilling that Ellen Serlie (ph) Johnson is going to be the new president.
VERJEE: She's a magnificent woman, isn't she?
BUSH: She is.
VERJEE: Very powerful. As an American woman, seeing Africa has its first elected president, who is a woman, what does that make you think? Do you think it's time that America --
BUSH: I think it will happen, for sure. I think it will happen probably in the next few terms of the presidency in the United States.
VERJEE: Who would you like to see?
BUSH: Well, of course a Republican.
(LAUGHTER)
BUSH: Like maybe Dr. Rice.
VERJEE: Yes?
BUSH: She says she definitely is not running.
VERJEE: But you would like to see her run?
BUSH: Sure, I'd love to see her run. She's terrific.
VERKEE: I have grown up in Africa. I've seen sort of the poverty, the HIV/AIDS there, that really devastates the continents. The lack of education programs, as you're well aware of. How do you think you can make a difference, even a small difference to the lives of African women, and Africans in general in the projects you're trying to do?
VERJEE: I think that when actually, if we talk about it, if we speak out from all over the world, and talk about how important it is for girls to be educated, if girls are educated, they have much more of a chance to be able to negotiate their own sex life, for instance; to protect themselves from sexually transmitted diseases, and then to be able to contribute to their economies, to their societies.
As we look around the world and we see countries where women are left out, we usually see an unstable, not very prosperous economy. And we know that, for countries to be able to really succeed, everybody needs to be able to be involved.
VERJEE: What about issues or difficulties of culture, the local environment?
(CROSS TALK)
BUSH: There are those as we know, we all watched at the Taliban in Afghanistan, when women were so oppressed that girls were forbidden to go to school. Women couldn't leave their homes without a male escort. And, of course, there were many, many widows from their years of war so women were literally isolated in their homes, But when people looked, when people saw it around the world, and reached out, Afghanistan was able to change.
VERJEE: You've been involved in those steps --
BUSH: That's right.
VERJEE: And trying to move that forward in Afghanistan as you point out.
BUSH: Um-hum.
VERJEE: Other parts of the Arab and Muslim world what kind of progress do you think the U.S. has made in those regions?
BUSH: Very significant progress in some parts, certainly in Afghanistan, the Afghan people have, too. In Iraq, where you see all of the people that turned up for the election, even though there were threats of violence. And how many people showed up to vote and how many people wanted to be involved in politics, and run for office. And I think that's very important.
In Afghanistan, their elections as well, when you see the number of women that stood for election there, I mean that's a huge change and a very, very short time.
VERJEE: There is a huge change also in Iraq with the constitution, with the elections. As far as women go, there were a lot of Iraqi women that say, we're really frustrated now, looking at this constitution, because it actually limits our rights, based partly on Islamic law, meaning that divorce laws are not in their favor, inheritance laws are not in their favor. What are your thoughts?
BUSH: Well, a lot of people -- some people say that. A lot of people actually say it's a very good constitution that does protect the rights of women. But what we know is it's an Iraqi constitution, that they wrote it. They wrote it, and they ratified it. And that's what it has to be.
It can't be a democracy like we might think it should be or an American-style democracy. But in fact are, as we look around the world each democracy as Liberia, as they try to rebuild, as they do the hard work of reconciliation, all the other things that they'd need to do after these elections it needs to be Liberian. It needs to be the way they want it to be.
VERJEE: Your daughter, Barbara, is going to be on this trip with you?
BUSH: That's right. I'm really excited about having her going with me.
VERJEE: What will she be doing? BUSH: She'll be going with me to all the events. She worked for part of this year in South Africa at a pediatric aids hospital, or pediatric hospital, worked with a lot of patients, little children with AIDS.
She's particularly interested in that. She's interested in the policy surrounding AIDS and what we can do in our country, and in other countries around the world, to really stop AIDS.
VERJEE: Let's talk a little bit about the families that you meet whose sons or daughters have been killed in Iraq. What's it like for you to comfort them, to console them, especially about if these are families who no longer believe in the cause, no longer believe that Iraq is worth it, and it was all in vain? How do you console them?
BUSH: Of course, as you can imagine it's unbelievably difficult, for them, what they have to suffer, what they'll suffer for the rest of their lives, with the loss of somebody they loved best. And then for the president, and for me, to meet with these families and to know what they've lost and what they've suffered.
VERJEE: What do you say?
BUSH: Amazingly enough, many times they're the ones that comfort us. In a lot of cases, military families have a tradition of being military families, the fathers themselves, or the mothers were in the military. And it's a proud tradition of their family in many, many cases, the grandparents were also in the military.
But you know what, we say is what we say today to you which is we do think it's worth it. That we know we can really make a huge difference in the world, if Iraq -- in the middle of the Middle East -- can build a stable democracy, that's -- it will be unbelievable, really.
I mean it will be something that will be so strong for all of the other surrounding countries, Palestine, Israel, for this opportunity to build peace there and build strong and stable countries.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VERJEE: Wolf, just ahead in THE SITUATION ROOM, part two of my exclusive interview with Laura Bush. How does the first lady feel when her husband comes under attack? A very revealing answer -- Wolf?
BLITZER: All right, Zain, we'll get right back to that.
We're also following breaking news here in THE SITUATION ROOM. The U.S. has targeted Ayman Al Zawahiri, Al Qaeda's number two man, in an air strike, and the word we're getting is he may -- repeat -- may have been killed. We're watching the story. Much more coming up right here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: We're following breaking news here in Washington, Ayman Al-Zawahiri, Al Qaeda's number two operative may -- repeat -- may have been killed in a U.S. air strike. We're watching this story. No confirmation yet, other than the U.S. targeted the number two Al Qaeda man. Much more is coming up.
Also, we go back to CNN's Zain Verjee for part two of her exclusive interview with the First Lady of the United States, Laura Bush.
Zain?
Wolf, Laura Bush told me about her reaction when she saw the wife of Supreme Court nominee, Samuel Alito, just burst into tears at the Supreme Court confirmation hearings earlier this week. Here's that part of our exclusive interview.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VERJEE (on camera): There was a very dramatic moment a couple of days ago in the Supreme Court confirmation hearings, where Mrs. Alito just sort of broke down, cried, and left the room on hearing her husband being criticized.
LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: Do I ever feel like doing that?
VERJEE: Yeah.
BUSH: Every once in a while.
VERJEE: Have you -- do you ever feel like crying when you hear the president being criticized, called a liar, being abused?
BUSH: Well, no, not really. But I will say I called Martha Alito yesterday to tell her to hang in there. I do think it's really important in the United States for people like Judge Alito, who -- to be treated with respect.
I think it's very important for the Senate to have a very civil and respectful hearing, for anyone, that it has been nominated for the Supreme Court or for the other jobs that require Senate confirmation.
But on the other hand, my family's been in politics for a long time. And I think you do develop a thick skin. Does it ever not hurt? You know, not really.
VERJEE: So you don't take it personally.
BUSH: Well, you try not to take it personally, but that's what I want to say, is that I think personal attacks are what people don't like, and what are really unwarranted.
VERJEE: Do you think Washington has become more partisan since the president took office?
BUSH: No, not really. I think Washington was very, very partisan, has been partisan for our entire history. George and I got to go to Springfield, Illinois, to the new Lincoln Library. And when you see there, all the headlines from the newspapers, all the op-ed pieces written around the country about Lincoln you realize that it's actually a constant in a democracy. And the great thing about a democracy is people can criticize in the most horrible ways people that are running for office.
VERJEE: The president, when running for office in 2000 said I want to be a uniter, not a divider. Today Washington is divided. The country is divided. There's a depth of animosity when families, even.
BUSH: I don't know that I would agree with that.
(CROSS TALK)
BUSH: But I will say -- I remember his first election, it was so close that it wasn't even determined on election night.
VERJEE: Right.
BUSH: So that preceded his being president.
VERJEE: So the country is split, though.
BUSH: Well, I mean --
VERJEE: There are bitter divisions. And I am wondering if you think there is anything that the president can do to heal any disparity, or any of those sorts of divisiveness?
BUSH: Sure, he does that every day, I think, by the way he acts and treats people with respect -- which he does. He doesn't have the luxury of making personal attacks on other people because he's the president of the United States. And I think that he serves as an example to people all over.
But I will say that one of the really great things about the United States is that we can be divided like this, that we can say whatever we want to say, about anyone who is running for office. And at the same time, get very, very united when there's a time to be united, when -- after 9/11.
VERJEE: Like after September 11th.
BUSH: Or after the hurricanes, where people all over the country did everything they could to welcome people from New Orleans or from the Mississippi Gulf Coast, who had to leave their homes. Welcome them into their communities. Or went, themselves, to work and to volunteer there.
I think there's still big groups of people who are cooking in Louisiana to feed people, meals a day. I just went in December and visited one of the great sites where people from all over the country come to volunteer.
VERJEE: What about you? I mean, many view the president as a divisive figure, but you as the first lady of this country -- or you are the least divisive figure in the White House. What do you think you can do to heal the country and address issues of divisiveness?
What both of us do every day, what we work on, the issues we find important are ways to unite our country. Certainly this, what I'm going to get to do this week, represent our country in Liberia at the inauguration of a president; go to AIDS programs, and African education initiative programs in Ghana and Nigeria, that are supported by the United States government, by the United States taxpayer.
And it's a way for me to not only represent the United States in Africa, but also to let the American people know what we are doing, what our country is doing, because I see that Americans want to help. They want to help fight AIDS. They want to help make sure girls are educated, here and everywhere around the world. And I really had the privilege to represent them.
VERJEE: And finally, I know the president has an iPod. You don't have an iPod.
BUSH: I have an iPod no, I have an iPod.
VERJEE: I ask you then, what's on your reading list for 2006, what are you reading now?
BUSH: Right now, let's see, I'm reading a really great book about Gertrude Bell. Gertrude Bell was a British woman who was really very ahead of her time. She did a lot of travel in what we would call the Middle East and Arabia, which she would, Persia. And she was influential in the designation of Iraq at the end of World War I. And it's a book about a very, very fascinating and adventuresome woman, but also very interesting time.
VERJEE: Do you ever recommend your books to the president to read?
BUSH: Sure. Yes, we've share books with each other, a lot.
VERJEE: Thank you so much, Mrs. Bush.
BUSH: Thank you.
VERJEE: It's been a real pleasure.
BUSH: Thanks a lot.
VERJEE: Thank you very much. Thank you, thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VERJEE: And Wolf, Mrs. Bush was extremely gracious and very, very warm indeed. And a lot more candid than I actually expected. Who knows, maybe Condoleezza Rice will take her advice and her pushing and put herself forward for a presidential candidate. Wolf?
BLITZER: We shall see. Thanks very much, Zain. Good work on your part as well. I want to get back to the breaking news we've been following this hour here in THE SITUATION ROOM. Word that the number two two leader of Al Qaeda, Ayman Al-Zawahiri, may -- repeat -- may have been killed in a U.S. air strike.
Let's bring in our National Security Correspondent David Ensor, who is following this story for us.
David, summarize briefly what we know.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: You know, Wolf, all day I've been asking officials about this reports on the wires about an air strike in Damadola (ph), a small village in Pakistan, near Afghanistan, where we had the reports.
Now, there's videotape, I believe, of the aftermath that there have been some kind of an air strike, hitting one or more houses in this very small village. And the wire reports said there were 17 or 18 dead.
Now, we have knowledgeable sources confirming to us that in fact, there was an air strike ordered up by the Central Intelligence Agency, based on what it believed were -- was "good reporting", quote/unquote, suggesting that Ayman Al-Zawahiri might be in one of the buildings they were trying to hit.
So at this point, as you said, the number two man in Al Qaeda has been targeted by the CIA, but U.S. officials do not know whether or not they got him, and that's the next question.
BLITZER: And presumably the Pakistanis who have the bodies will be able to make that determination relatively quickly.
Nic Robertson, our senior international correspondent, has spent a great deal of time in that part of the world watching this story.
Nic, give us some perspective what this may mean.
ROBERTSON: Well, if it is Ayman al-Zawahiri who has been killed then it will have a knock on effect on al Qaeda at least psychologically for al Qaeda adherents around the world.
People I've talked to, who have been close to that organization, have said that it would affect people if bin Laden or Zawahiri were killed. But it is going to be some time probably before Pakistani authorities can retrieve whatever they need to retrieve and make the determination.
It's interesting that this particular attack happened during a religious holiday festival when people would have been traveling perhaps from village to village. Bigger numbers of people traveling more than normal, Wolf.
BLITZER: Nic Robertson, thanks very much.
Barbara Starr is our Pentagon correspondent. Barbara, what are you hearing from your sources?
STARR: Officially, Wolf, the Pentagon is saying nothing, but let's decipher how this technology works.
If it was a predator unmanned drone firing a hellfire missile that would not be a weapon that would see Zawahiri inside a building. Someone would have had to have seen him go in and related that information in a very quick fashion to the CIA.
And they would have to have some reason to believe, of course, he was still inside. It could be weeks before there is a final determination or we could know very shortly--Wolf.
BLITZER: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon. Thanks to you and all of our correspondents. We're going to continue here at CNN to watch this breaking news.
We're also watching a very important story involving cell phones. If you have a cell phone, you're going to want to watch this. You're going to find out how anyone can pay $100 to see exactly who you're talking to, and why cell phone companies have no clue how to stop it.
Although within the past two hours, they've begun taking some new steps. We'll tell you what's going on.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: We're following another developing story tonight here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Is the privacy of your cell phone at risk? Just within the last hour a federal district court in Georgia issued a restraining order that could affect tens of millions of cell phone users and potentially every cell phone user in America.
The case centers on a growing concern that the telephone numbers for every call you make on your cell phone are available to anyone with a little bit of cash.
Our Internet team has spent the last week investigating this very serious problem. The results are frightening.
Let's begin our coverage with our Internet correspondent Jacki Schechner -- Jacki.
JACKI SCHECHNER, INTERNET CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this is not my cell phone, and yet I have a list of the last 100 outgoing calls that were made from this phone. It belongs to one of our producers here at CNN.
Let me show what we did. We took his cell phone number. We plugged it into this web site, locatecell.com. That is all we gave them, the cell phone number and $110.
By the way, want to mention, we have reached out to this company several times in several ways over the past couple of days. We have gotten nothing back.
This was at 2:15 yesterday. According to several Sprint customer service representatives, at 3:52 p.m. yesterday somebody called Sprint and somebody within Sprint pulled this up record. No changes were made to it, but that was the information that we got.
This morning at 9:55 a.m. we got this e-mail with the last 100 outgoing calls made from that telephone number. We matched it up against the official Sprint records, and guess what? It matches.
Now, there are some typos in it. It looks like the list we got was hand typed. For example, this number right here. This was the actual number, and this is the way it was received. But other than that it all seems to be exactly the same. Now we got an official statement from Sprint corporate.
Here is how this reads, "Sprint Nextel does not condone these types of firms and has well-established processes to verify the identity of authorized account holders. Nevertheless, these firms have managed to make a business out of selling such information, based on fraud. Sprint Nextel is not the only wireless carrier to have discovered this problem."
They are absolutely correct. We know people's records have been compromised by T-Mobile and also by Cingular wireless. We talked to both of these companies, and they told us they are aggressively fighting this, Wolf.
As for what you can do, I want to mention this, all of the experts that I spoke to said put a password on your account. But our producer had a password, and someone got in anyway. So you have got to be careful. It is scary stuff.
BLITZER: Very scary stuff, Jacki. Thank you very much.
The story raises serious concerns about all of our privacy, and there are also safety concerns.
CNN's Brian Todd is picking up that part of the story -- Brian.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, we spoke to law enforcement officials, security experts and private investigators about these online data brokers. They all say the implications about the type of information that could be trafficked here are chilling.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (voice over): Phil Becnel is a private investigator in the Washington, D.C., area. He says he doesn't use so-called data brokers to find private cell phone records because of the legal implications. But Becnel believes he knows why people use them.
PHIL BECNEL, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Spouses wanting to determine if their other is cheating on them by determining who they've called recently, stalkers possibly. TODD: Other security experts we spoke to say online data brokers can be used in many devious ways. Companies can find out if employees have contacted their competitors with their cell phones or if they've called psychiatrists.
Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan believes the law enforcement implications are enormous. Madigan's office recently subpoenaed locatecell.com, one of the most prominent data brokers, to find out how it operates. She hasn't heard back from the company and is preparing her next move.
CNN was unable to get a response from locatecell.com. Madigan says among the most vulnerable are victims of domestic abuse. Many already don't establish land phone or utility accounts fearing their abusers may find them.
LISA MADIGAN, ILLINOIS ATTORNEY GENERAL: It's very difficult for you to protect yourself if you are using a cell phone or any phone for that matter if you know that somebody can for $100 get a hold of the information that would allow them to find out when you're at work, when you're at home, where you are, who you're talking to. And, therefore, they can potentially stalk you and track you down.
TODD: Other law enforcement officials say criminal gangs can pay these services to see if any suspected informants have contacted police using cell phones.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: And it's not just informants who are in dangers. Lisa Madigan says a warning recently went out to undercover and other police in the Chicago area saying information on their cell phone calls, including calls they might have made to their own homes, could be sold by these brokers--Wolf.
BLITZER: Brian Todd reporting for us.
And remember a restraining order has just been issued by a court in Georgia. We'll continue to watch this story.
We are also watching the other breaking news that we've been reporting over the past hour here in THE SITUATION ROOM, the possibility that al Qaeda's number two man, Ayman al-Zawahiri, may have been killed in a U.S. air strike in Pakistan earlier today. We'll watch that story.
All of that coming up. I want to thank our international viewers for joining us tonight in THE SITUATION ROOM. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up next, Paula Zahn -- Paula.
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