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The Situation Room
Iran Facing 30-Day Deadline to Stop Nuclear Program; Senate Continues Debate Over Immigration Reform; Bush Heads to Mexico to Discuss Immigration Reform
Aired March 29, 2006 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: And to our viewers, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time.
Standing by, CNN reporters across the United States and around the world to bring you tonight's top stories.
Happening now, it's 7:00 p.m. at the United Nations. We're tracking an emerging international showdown. Iran now facing a 30-day deadline to stop its nuclear program. The clock is ticking. So what happens if Iran does not back down?
It's 7:00 p.m. in Washington, where at this hour the Senate continues its hard-fought debate over immigration reform. As senators square off, does the president now have an unlikely ally? I'll ask Democratic senator Ted Kennedy. He'll be here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
And it's 6:00 p.m. in Cancun, Mexico, where Mr. Bush is heading even as we speak. The president will meet with the leaders of Mexico and Canada. Topic A, immigration. Lou Dobbs is in Mexico. We're going to have a debate tonight between Lou and Univision's Jorge Ramos on immigration, borders, lots more. You're going to want to stick around for that debate..
I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
We begin this hour with a developing story we're watching. Just as the president of the United States is flying to Mexico to deal with one very important international issue, there's another one brewing at home involving nuclear concerns. Tonight, the United Nations Security Council just has issued a 30-day deadline to Iran. The clock is ticking.
CNN's Mary Snow is tracking that story. She is joining us now live from the newsroom -- Mary.
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the 15 nations sitting on the Security Council acted unanimously, demanding that Iran suspend uranium enrichment activities within 30 days and cooperate with the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog. The International Atomic Energy Agency is to report back at the end of that time on how Iran is complying.
The United States accuses of Iran trying to develop nuclear weapons, and America's allies in Europe have failed in more than two years of talks to end the standoff. Iran insists that its nuclear program is peaceful, aimed only at developing a civilian energy program.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAVAD ZARIF, IRANIAN AMB. TO THE U.N.: Iran believes that acquisition of nuclear weapons is dangerous to its security and would be detrimental to its security. And that is why we have made this commitment very clearly.
It is only about Iran's rights. And rights are there in the treaty. And they cannot be arbitrarily played with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: Iran's U.N. ambassador today said his country has an unalienable right to pursue nuclear energy and warned that Iran is "allergic to pressure and intimidation" -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Mary Snow, thank you very much.
And we're just getting this in to CNN. We've just received a statement from the secretary of the state, Condoleezza Rice, reacting to this United Nations move. She says -- and I'm quoting now -- "Iran is more isolated now than ever. The Security Council's presidential statement sends an unmistakable message to Iran that its efforts to conceal its nuclear program and evade its international obligations are unacceptable. The international community expects Iran to comply with the IAEA's call to suspend all enrichment-related activity and to return to negotiations."
She didn't say what the U.S. is going to do if Iran refuses to comply.
There's another developing story we're watching as this nuclear crisis brews. Right now, the president is heading toward Cancun, Mexico. Not for spring break. There will be no time off from the issue that has been dogging his administration and dividing his own party; namely, immigration reform. President Bush will discuss that at the summit in Mexico with the Mexican president, Vicente Fox, and the Canadian prime minister, Stephen Harper.
Just before his departure from Washington, Mr. Bush restated his position on immigrants.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There are people doing jobs Americans will not do. Many people who have come into our country are helping our economy grow. That's just a fact of life. And I believe that we ought to say to somebody doing a job an American won't do, here is a tamper-proof identity card that will enable you to be here for a period of time. And if that person wants to become a citizen of the United States, because we're a nation of law, they get at the end of the line.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BLITZER: Our White House correspondent, Elaine Quijano, is standing by in Cancun, but let's go to Capitol Hill right now. Our congressional correspondent, Dana Bash, is standing by, where there is word that on the House side there may be movement to what many Republicans dread; namely, this guest worker program the president supports -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, right now, this evening, the Senate has finally started the much-anticipated debate on immigration. Right now, they're just talking about border security, but they will be debating and eventually voting on a so- called guest worker program allowing illegal immigrants to stay legally in the U.S. and work.
It is a big question whether divided Republicans will even approve that kind -- any kind of measure like that in the Senate. But bigger picture, one of the big questions is, what happens with the House of Representatives?
As you mentioned, there is a lot of opposition, especially in the House, among conservatives to any kind of guest worker program. The House only passed border security.
But earlier today, the House speaker signaled that he may be opened to something related to guest worker programs.
I'm sorry. I thought we had a sound bite there. But I will tell you what he said.
The House speaker said that, "We know that there is a need in some sectors of our economy for a guest worker program." That is what the House speaker said.
So, signaling that he understands that there is some desire out there. That is, it doesn't sound like perhaps he is embracing the idea. But just the fact that he signaled that, Wolf, that has sent a lot of people, proponents, Republican proponents that I've talked to, especially here in the Senate, very happy. They are very encouraged by that.
But again, a big question mark, Wolf, whether or not anything like that can actually pass the Senate, pass the House of Representatives, get to the president. Of course, that is something that the president very much wants.
BLITZER: Dana Bash report from the Hill.
Dana, thank you very much.
Let's go to Cancun right now, where our White House correspondent, Elaine Quijano, is standing by with more from there.
Elaine, the reception the president is likely to receive in Mexico, I assume, will be relatively positive.
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Relatively positive. But, of course, here in Mexico, Wolf, there is, in fact, pressure on the Mexican president, Vicente Fox, to urge President Bush to do more to secure some kind of immigration deal.
Already, as you mentioned, we heard President Bush just before he left Washington reiterate his view that any part of border security, a solution must include a guest worker program. He sees that as a realistic approach.
At the same time, though, there is the understanding here in Mexico that it is a very difficult issue. But this will be front and center. The two leaders set to be meet tomorrow -- Wolf.
BLITZER: And you'll be covering it every step of the way.
Elaine in Cancun.
Thank you very much.
And there's this story just coming in from Texas.
For that, other headlines we're watching, let's go back to Mary Snow. She's in the newsroom -- Mary.
SNOW: Wolf, two members of a Texas high school soccer team were killed today when their bus overturned. A Beaumont High School girls soccer team was headed to a match when the charter bus flipped on Highway 90. That's near Houston.
Authorities say the bus apparently swerved and rolled over when a truck in front of it lost its load. Twenty-five people, including 22 students, were on the bus.
A New Orleans grand jury has indicted two fired police officers and a current officer in last year's beating of retired school teacher. The October 8 beating of Robert Davis attracted international attention when it was caught on tape.
One officer is charged with false imprisonment. The other two face battery charges. Davis has pleaded not guilty to charges of public intoxication and resisting arrest
The Bush administration is unveiling new higher fuel standards for SUVs, pickup trucks and other large vehicles. Officials say the new rules which will cover vehicles between 2008 and 2011 will save more than 10 billion gallons of fuel. Under the new regulations, automakers will have to meet an average of 24 miles to the gallon, but some environmental groups say the regulations don't go far enough.
And former Senate majority leader George Mitchell will head an investigation into alleged past steroid abuse by Major League baseball players. That is according to ESPN. ESPN reports that the former main lawmaker will not be the lead investigator, but he will take charge of the investigation effort.
This comes in the wake of allegations that players, including San Francisco Giants slugger Barry Bonds used steroids to enhance their performance on the field -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Mary Snow reporting.
Thank you, Mary, very much.
Let's check in with Jack Cafferty. He's in New York with "The Cafferty File" -- Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, Wolf.
Real security, that's how the Democrats are branding their new strategy. The party proposed its national security platform today. An election-year effort aimed at changing the public's perception that Republicans are stronger on the issue of national security.
In a statement, the Democrats vowed to provide U.S. agents with the resources to "eliminate" Osama bin Laden, and they ensure what they call a responsible redeployment of U.S. forces from Iraq in 2006.
That's it? With everything's that's gone on in the last three or four years, this is all they can come up with, eliminate Osama bin Laden? We can't even find Osama bin Laden.
And they're going to redeploy U.S. forces in Iraq in 2006? How exactly do they plan to do that?
The commander in chief of U.S. forces is the president. And he happens to be a Republican. And even if you win control of the Congress, you don't get sworn in until 2007.
Democratic strategists say that polling shows the Democrats lead in all other areas, the economy, health care, education. And they're closing the gap when it comes to national security.
No doubt, with catchy little slogans like "eliminating Osama bin Laden." Incredible.
Here's the question: How do Democrats compare to Republicans when it comes to national security?
E-mail us at CaffertyFile@CNN.com or go to CNN.com/CaffertyFile.
This may be the early stages of watching the Democrats snatch defeat from the jaws of victory -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Yes. I'm sure they're not happy to hear that, Jack. Thank you very...
CAFFERTY: Well, I mean, eliminate Osama bin Laden? I mean, that's it? Come on.
BLITZER: It's a good idea to eliminate Osama bin Laden if they could just find him.
CAFFERTY: Hey, are you guys all going out to dinner down there tonight? BLITZER: We'll talk about that later, Jack.
Thank you very much.
Coming up, immigration divide. Senator Ted Kennedy here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Plus, Lou Dobbs and Univision's Jorge Ramos, they're standing by to debate live what's going on in the immigration battle. This is a debate you won't want to miss.
And farmers, they're keeping an especially close eye on this border battle. Why some say their livelihood are right now on the line.
And the immigrants themselves taking desperate measures to reach the United States. We'll talk to some of them as they make the dangerous and difficult journey.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: In the U.S. Senate, the battle lines clearly drawn over immigration reform. Democratic Senator Ted Kennedy took today to the floor, making an impassioned appeal to give illegal immigrants a chance to become legal residents and eventually to become citizens on of the United States. Does President Bush now have an unlikely ally in the immigration fight?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Joining us now is Senator Ted Kennedy.
Senator, thanks very much. Welcome back to THE SITUATION ROOM.
Why is it fair to give those who came to here illegally the opportunity, in effect, to jump ahead of the line, and become legal residents of the United States at the expense, as the critics say, of so many others who go through the law, go through the process and wait patiently in line?
SEN. TED KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: It isn't, and that's not what our bill does. Basically, what our bill does, is the following: for those that are here in the United States, the undocumented aliens, what this legislation says, Look, if you have paid your taxes, if you have worked, if you've been a good citizen, no problems with the law, then you go to the end of the line. And after all those that are out there now are coming into the United States, after they're all here in the United States, then you get on the track to be able to earn your citizenship.
And to earn your citizenship, you're going to have to continue to demonstrate a work ethic, you're going to have to pay a penalty. You have to be a good citizen. And I think that is what we're talking about, earning the right to be a citizen. That's what, basically, that aspect of our legislation is all about.
Look, we have about 12 million undocumented here. The alternative is, are we going to deport them? That's a cost of $240 billion, just financially, plus what the kind of disruption that that would have in terms of families, and finally, the destruction it would have, in terms of the American economy.
We're looking for a program that is going to work, that's workable, that's going to be tough, in terms of border security, is going to have a limited, verifiable guest-worker program, and is also going to permit people to earn their citizenship where they start at the end of the line and where they demonstrate the qualities that all Americans like: hard-working, providing for their families.
BLITZER: Why isn't this a form of amnesty, as the critics insist it is?
KENNEDY: Because amnesty means forgiveness. Amnesty means "pardoned." We are not forgiving, we're not pardoning. Every individual that wants to follow that course is going to pay a penalty, and every individual is going to go to the back of the line and have to earn their way through. It'll take them 11 years to become citizens, and during that period of time, they're going to have to work hard, pay their taxes, play by the rules.
We have 70,000 permanent resident aliens now in the armed forces of the country, in Afghanistan and in Iraq, that are serving. These people want to work hard, they want to provide for their families, they want to contribute to this country.
They have qualities which we basically admire. They're the church-goers, our neighbors down the street that are working in these smaller stores. We ought to permit them to have the opportunity to earn.
BLITZER: If they follow all the stipulations that you put forward and your co-sponsors put forward, after 11 years they will be allowed to stay and become citizens of the United States.
KENNEDY: They will. That's exactly right.
BLITZER: And that's why the critics say, that in effect you're letting them receive amnesty.
KENNEDY: Amnesty -- you mean, if they now -- amnesty, as I mentioned before, means forgiveness, and it means pardon. It means that they go to the front of the line. They don't go to the front of the line. They pay a penalty and they go to the back of the line.
These are families -- why did these families come here? Basically -- and one of their qualities, and what do we admire -- these are individuals that want to work hard, they want to provide for their families, they want to -- 98 percent of the undocumented males are now working.
This is a crowd that works hard, plays by the rules, pays their taxes and wants to make America a better country. Now, what we're saying is, you don't go to the front of the line, you don't go to the middle of the line, but you go to the end of the line. And not only do you go to the end of the line, but we have 11 years to find out if you're going to work hard, you're going to pay your taxes and you're going to stay out of trouble.
If, in 11 years, you work hard, stay out of trouble, it seems to me that they ought to be able to earn their citizenship. I mean, that's what generations of immigrants did before; it's what my great- grandparents have done, and yours as well, and every other American's.
BLITZER: Let me ask you: basically, you're on the same page -- correct me if I'm wrong -- with the president, more or less, when it comes to this issue of illegal immigration.
KENNEDY: Well, we're not quite there yet, but I must say I admire the fact that the president's been talking about this issue, which is a highly-emotional issue. But we're not quite there yet, but we've made some important progress. It would certainly be Senator McCain's idea and mine that we could try and bring the president in.
Look, Wolf, at the most important time in our nation's history, Republicans and Democrats came together with the president and we passed our civil rights laws, knocking down walls of discrimination on race and religion, ethnicity, on disability on this. We've done that.
We've also come together on the Medicaid law. We came together on the higher education act. We came together. This is -- we've come together now, with a 12-6 vote, Republicans and Democrats alike. We could get the president, get a strong, bipartisan, and do something that is important for our country.
It's not going to be easy. Whenever you get the issues on immigration, it's highly volatile, like civil rights issues, but this is something that is in the immediate interest of our country and the long term interest of our nation.
BLITZER: You clearly feel passionate about it. Senator Kennedy, as usual, thanks for joining us.
KENNEDY: Thanks very much. Good to talk to you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And still so come tonight in THE SITUATION ROOM, a border battle debate. CNN's Lou Dobbs and Univision's Jorge Ramos, they're both standing by live in Cancun, Mexico. They'll join us coming up here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
And human smuggling and desperation. Why people are risking their lives to cross the border as smugglers make lots of money off of them. A rare glimpse inside this illegal trade.
And the corrupt lobbyist Jack Abramoff learns his prison statement. Just how harsh will it be?
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Mary Snow joining us once again with a quick look at some other news making headlines around the world -- Mary.
SNOW: Wolf, Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas swore in the new Hamas-led government today. The 24-member cabinet includes 14 minister who have served time in Israeli prisons. Abbas also urged Israeli leaders to return to negotiations which have stalled since the militant Islamic group won Palestinian elections in January.
Both the U.S. and Canadian governments say they will have no contact with Hamas, which the U.S. says is a terrorist organization.
The Afghan man who could have been put to death for converting to Christianity is now in Italy. Abdul Rahman left Afghanistan earlier today after being released from prison on Monday. Italy's prime minister says his country is glad to welcome someone so courageous. Italy's interior ministry says Rahman is being protected.
Some Muslim clerics are demanding Rahman return to the Islamic faith or be killed.
And Liberia's former president, Charles Taylor, is in a prison cell in Sierra Leone this evening. The former warlord faces charges of crimes against humanity. Taylor disappeared from his home in Nigeria Monday as he was about to be handed over to the U.N.-backed special court in Sierra Leone. He was captured in northeastern Nigeria yesterday as he was trying to cross the border into Cameroon -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Mary, thank you very much.
And just ahead, two top television newsmen on very opposite sides of the border battle. Our own Lou Dobbs and Univision's Jorge Ramos, they're standing by live from Cancun, Mexico. We're going to have a serious debate.
Also, back-breaking work and low wages. We'll find out why one major farm owner says cutting off all illegal immigration will lead to the collapse of American agriculture.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
Lou Dobbs, Jorge Ramos, they're standing by. We'll have a serious immigration debate. That's coming up.
For, though, some American farmers, they're watching all of these issues unfold extremely closely and very anxiously. Some say their very livelihoods may be on the line.
CNN's Sumi Das is joining us now from Oxnard, California, with this part of the story -- Sumi.
SUMI DAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks very much, Wolf.
Well, drive through Oxnard and you'll see mile after mile of crops all planted in tiny little rows. You'll see cabbages, lettuce, tomatoes. But what this city is really known for is its strawberries. And the immigration going on in your back yard, Wolf, there on Capitol Hill could have a serious impact on these fields and really anyone connected to farming.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAS (voice over): From coast to coast, Americans eat berries grown in Oxnard, California, and picked by immigrant workers. This grower wants to remain anonymous. We'll call him Tom. He's been in the strawberry business all his life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've never had an American come ask me if they could pick strawberries. Or I've never had an American come ask me for any job on the farm.
DAS: Tom says he only employs workers who show him legal documents. He says he doubts there will be new federal laws making the hiring of undocumented workers a felony, but says if it happens, the effects will be crippling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you shut the border down and you -- and you eliminate all workforce, you know, fresh produce in this country shuts down with it.
DAS: And says, Tom, the price of strawberries skyrockets or the fruit vanishes from store shelves and our tables altogether. Strawberry growers and the United Farm Workers Union rarely agree on anything. But on this, they see eye to eye.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: American agriculture as we know it would collapse. Americans would no longer be able to buy most fresh fruits and vegetables, at least not any that are produced in America.
DAS: But when it comes to a solution, the two parties are far apart. Tom favors a guest worker program that's light on red tape but quick to get workers in the field. President Bush has proposed a guest worker program that would allow individuals to work in the U.S. for three years, with a possibility of a three-year extension before they must return to their home country. The United Farm Workers say the prospect doesn't hold appeal for the many undocumented workers whose roots in the U.S. run deep.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their families are here. They go to church in their home towns. They're not going to volunteer to participate in a program that only promises them deportation if they follow all the rules.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DAS: Now the grower we talked to said that at the peak of strawberry season, pickers earn about $10 to $12 an hour. And Wolf, that may sound like a decent wage, but remember, it's not year round. It's only at the height of the season. And when you break it down, it works out to about 12 cents pint. Now we just bought this basket at the market, it cost $3, Wolf.
BLITZER: Sumi Das, thanks very much. Let's continue this immigration discussion. Certainly the debate, one of the subjects on the agenda in Cancun, Mexico, where President Bush will meet the leaders of Mexico and Canada.
CNN's Lou Dobbs is broadcasting live from Cancun for the rest of this week, as is Jorge Ramos, the Univision anchor, the author of the book, "The Latino Wave." Want to bring both of them in and Lou, let me start with you, and just react to this suggestion. We heard in Sumi Das's piece from these farmers that if you don't allow these guest workers program for these illegal immigrants to be here, the American agriculture industry, the strawberries and everything else, they're simply going to go down the drain.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: I think it's interesting that the suggestion is there. Wolf, I want you to know and your viewers to know, I'm one of those people who worked with migrant workers in potato fields, bean fields, hay field. I know how tough that work is and how dirty, and hot, and what consuming work is.
And the fact they're making $12 in seasonal work is the real issue. The farmers in this country, most growers, should have been already mechanized years ago. The fact that the confined people, who in most cases, the estimate is more than half are illegal. We have perfectly good ways for these growers associations and agricultural co-ops to get Visas and bring them in. We don't need a guest worker program, we already have it under our Visa program. The issue is how much they pay and whether or not they want to provide decent living wages for guest workers or for American citizens.
BLITZER: Jorge, you want to respond to that?
JORGE RAMOS, ANCHOR, UNIVISION: The issue is that we already have in this country, 12 million jobs that no Americans really wants to do. I was in Florida just recently and I don't know, I saw probably 800 workers. I didn't see a single American citizen.
We do need more immigrants in this country. We do need immigrants, not only for the agriculture business, but also we need -- I mean, immigrants basically are doing the jobs that no Americans want to do.
And at the same time, we have to realize that this is a much better country thanks to the presence of immigrants. So we have to face the fact, we have to face a fact that our 12 million immigrants in this country, they're not going back to their countries of origin.
And the other fact is that they're coming at the rate of about half a million immigrants every single year. So it has nothing to do with -- it has to do with economics. As long as we have these salaries between Mexico, which they make $4 a day and they make $4 every 30 minutes in the United States, they're going to keep on coming.
BLITZER: Lou, today the speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert, left open the possibility that the Republicans -- he's the leader of the Republicans in the House -- would support what the president wants as a guest worker program. Senator Kennedy is pushing for that. You heard in the interview we just aired as well. What do you make of this?
DOBBS: Well, Wolf, the idea that would be a compromise that comes out of the Senate and the House on this legislation shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. It should also not be a surprise to anyone that the Republican leadership, the Democrat leadership, are both in the pockets of big business, corporate America, they're dominating the political system.
And the only people not represented, by the way, in this entire debate, are the middle class, working men and women in our country, who oppose a guest worker program. The two most recent polls showed the opposition of well above 60 percent. And they're indifferent to the wishes of the people.
The second part of that issue is straight forward. It's impossible to reform immigration unless you can control immigration. And you can't control immigration if you do not secure and control our borders. And how in the world, either party, and certainly the leadership of the House, the Senate, and President Bush can justify the fact that our borders are still so insecure, that three million illegal aliens cross them every year, it's mind boggling.
BLITZER: Jorge, go ahead.
RAMOS: The only people really not represented in this debate are the undocumented immigrants. I haven't seen them anywhere. And let's get personal here. Lou, I mean, I am an immigrant. I came from Mexico. There are millions of immigrants just like me in the United States. Thousands of them demonstrated last Saturday in Los Angeles. What's wrong with people like me, Lou? I mean...
DOBBS: ... I think you're really...
RAMOS: ... I'm very thankful to the United States, because it gave me the opportunity that my country of origin couldn't give me. But I truly believe that immigrants are contributing and have contributed enormously to the economy and to the culture and to the diversity of the country. So what's wrong with that?
DOBBS: Well let me answer you. I think you're asking the wrong person because the person you should be asking is Vicente Fox.
RAMOS: No but why include immigrants all the time? I mean, what's wrong with people like us?
DOBBS: Please, I have not interrupted you. I think your question is better placed to Vicente Fox. Why does he not like Mexicans? Why does he not like his own people, that he would give them an absolute disgusting mission. And that is to cut the dignity that they have to go to work and be exploited by American employers.
And to send 10 percent of his nation's population to the United States to work, as the report earlier, Jorge, for basically $12 an hour for seasonal wages.
Let me say to you, that this is an absolutely conspiracy of a lack of conscience. There is no dignity in this. It is not becoming to the United States of America, the world's leading industrialized nation, the world's greatest free enterprise democracy, to subject illegal labor or anyone else to this kind of just -- insult. So ask Vicente Fox.
RAMOS: No, there is no dignity, Lou, is that 460 people died last year at the border.
DOBBS: Then the Mexican government should have stopped them before they got to the border.
RAMOS: There's no dignity in the fact that this week, 20 immigrants died at the border.
DOBBS: Go the Mexican government. Don't put it on the U.S., because they died from coming to the south and going north.
RAMOS: Now it's my turn to talk. And there is no dignity in the fact, Lou, that you are criticizing immigrants -- this lack of respect when you call them illegals.
DOBBS: I'm criticizing illegal aliens. I'm criticizing the Bush administration, the Fox administration, two governments that are conspiring.
RAMOS: When you call them illegals, many people have in their mind of criminals and terrorists and they're not criminals, they're not terrorists, and I honestly think it's a double standard and it is not say hypocritical, to criticize undocumented immigrants and at the same time to benefit from their work.
BLITZER: Let me interrupt, Jorge and Lou, let me interrupt. You know in the House version, the House passed legislation, Jorge, illegal immigrants would be considered felons here in the United States.
RAMOS: And immigrants are not terrorists. Immigrants are not felons, immigrants are not criminals. They make this a better country and we have to realize the fact that without immigrants, it would be impossible to think of this country having the economic growth that we're having right now. In the next five years, the white working-age population is going to decreased, and who's going replace those workers? Immigrants. It's as simple as that.
BLITZER: Go ahead, Lou.
DOBBS: Straight forwardly, illegal immigrants depress wages by an estimated $100 billion a year for working -- working men and women, $50 billion in social services, only a third of our prison population is made up of illegal aliens.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: They contribute an estimated $7 billion to Social Security. The imbalance is crushing. The taxpayer of the United States is paying for it. Jorge's right, illegal immigrants do provide a benefit. They provide a tremendous benefit to those who hire them illegally, who commit a crime by doing so. And unless we deal with these illegal employers, we're going to be -- and it's a total fiction that illegal aliens are contributing majorly to the economy. It's marginal at best.
BLITZER: Are you among those, Jorge -- hold on a second. Are you among those who believe that there are racial overtones involved in this debate? In other words, if the illegal immigrants weren't coming from Mexico, if they were coming from Europe, that the debate would not be as intense?
RAMOS: Well, I mean, people say that there are too many immigrants right now. Only 11 percent of the U.S. population is foreign born, but when Europeans were coming in, in the early 20th century, it was 14 percent. And people didn't criticize them as much.
I really don't want to get into that, but I wonder why people criticized Mexican immigrants in what happened last Saturday in Los Angeles, but they are not criticizing Irish immigrants coming into this country as much, or Canadians for that matter. But what I would like to do ...
DOBBS: Just for the record, Wolf, I have been as critical of illegal aliens from any country, and specifically, the Irish when their prime minister was -- Bertie Ahern was at the White House asking for amnesty. I'm as fully opposed to that as I am illegal aliens from any country.
RAMOS: Lou, how do you -- I mean, you call them illegals just as if they were criminals. I mean, you know, I would love to take you ...
(CROSSTALK)
RAMOS: Just ask thousands of American companies who are hiring them.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: They carry documents of all kinds. Most of the documents are fake.
(CROSSTALK)
RAMOS: I would love to take you to meet these illegals, that you so-called.
DOBBS: I told you, I worked with them. I know them, I respect them. RAMOS: And not only that, but you will realize that they're so similar to you. You will realize that they're hardworking people, that they're religious, probably as conservative or even more conservative than you. And you would realize that ...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: They're going to be more conservative.
RAMOS: Well, I mean, the fact is that they're making this a better country, and what I've told you many, many times in the past, you personally, Lou, as 300 million Americans, benefit every single day from what they do. This is a challenge for you ...
DOBBS: It's not a challenge for me.
RAMOS: ... and for the members of Congress, and for 300 ...
DOBBS: It's a challenge for Congress. It's a challenge for every working man and woman in the country.
RAMOS: Spend one day -- I'll say that and then I'll just stop talking. Spend one day without benefiting from the work of immigrants. They -- the food that you eat, their harvest.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: How about the 280 Americans who are in the country legally, how much do they benefit from those hardworking middle-class people, working men and women who are citizens of the United States? How much do they take?
Mexico and other nations, principally in Central America are shipping poverty to the United States. They're exporting poverty. And, by the way, of illegal immigration, Mexican citizens comprise the vast, vast majority of those we bring into this country legally, a million people every year.
RAMOS: Lou.
DOBBS: And the temerity of anyone to suggest that this nation, the United States, should suppress wages by $200 billion for those who are working, trying to feed their families who are legally here, and to permit -- and you say it's not racial issue, Jorge? You tell me where MALDEF, LULAC, La Raza, all of these Hispanic organizations would be if these were Polish people coming into this country. The racial issues go two ways.
BLITZER: Go ahead, Jorge, and then I have a specific question for Lou.
RAMOS: Basically, I think we have to realize that any immigration reform without including the possibility to legalize the situation of 12 million undocumented immigrants, and without including the reality and accepting the fact that half a million immigrants are coming to this country every single year, it would be a lack of political courage, and it would be a completely waste of time.
BLITZER: All right.
RAMOS: And without that, nothing could be -- nothing would change in this country. And I just want to say welcome to Mexico, Lou.
DOBBS: Delighted to be here. Thank you.
BLITZER: One quick question, Lou, before I let both of you go. Are these 10 or 12 or maybe even more million immigrants here, people here without documents, are they criminals from your perspective?
DOBBS: My perspective? Is that what you asked, Wolf?
BLITZER: Yes. Yes.
DOBBS: I think they have broken the law. Are they felons? I don't believe so, because I believe in the law as it's written, and they are -- this is a misdemeanor. It's part of the Sensenbrenner bill. I don't agree with Sensenbrenner bill. I don't agree with the McCain-Kennedy bill. I think the Cornyn-Kly legislation makes great sense.
I think it's unrealistic to expect people to leave this country in the entirety of the population. But I think it's critically important to put, frankly, border security first, because without border security we can't control immigration, and we cannot reform immigration until we can control.
BLITZER: Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Let me say one other thing. A failure of courage -- the failure of the courage is on the part of the Catholic Church, which is supporting illegal immigration because it hasn't had the courage, in the nation in which I am sitting here with Jorge right now, in Mexico, to be reform-minded, to put its concern for those who -- as good Samaritans, the church has a responsibility. They have ignored the plight of the Mexican people, and they are taking advantage of the political and economic strength of the United States.
BLITZER: All right.
DOBBS: Furthermore, the Mexican government has no courage or this solution would be well underway in this nation.
BLITZER: All right. Lou, Jorge, unfortunately, we have to leave it there to be continued. Lou Dobbs, Jorge Ramos, both in Cancun. Thanks very much to both of you for joining us.
RAMOS: Thank you.
DOBBS: Good to be with you.
BLITZER: And just ahead here in THE SITUATION ROOM, a deeply religious man who is also a former Republican lobbyist asked for forgiveness. So did the disgraced Jack Abramoff get it from the judge? We're going to have details. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: In another developing story we're following tonight, it's another chapter in the fall from grace for the disgraced former Republican lobbyist, Jack Abramoff.
Brian Todd is standing by. He has details -- Brian.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, Jack Abramoff told the judge today that he felt chascent (ph) and remorseful for his actions. His efforts to show contrition seemed to work along with his cooperation with prosecutors.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (voice-over): The man who charmed the powerful in Washington is tight-lipped in Miami. Fallen super lobbyist Jack Abramoff leaves U.S. district court, where he got a five year, 10 month prison sentence and was ordered to pay more than $21 million in restitution, lenient under federal guidelines, perhaps because of his cooperation with prosecutors.
Abramoff had just told U.S. district judge Paul Huck his ordeal was "incredibly painful for my family and friends and especially me." Abramoff pleaded guilty to two counts of wire fraud for faking a $23 million transfer in purchasing floating casinos.
Despite his crimes, Abramoff enjoyed the support of hundreds who sent letters on his behalf to the judge. Former colleague Laurence Latourette was one of them.
LAURENCE LATOURETTE, FORMER ABRAMOFF COLLEAGUE: He's just another poor sinner like the rest of us, although his sins are probably a little bit more egregious.
TODD: Rabbis wrote of his charity work. And while others on Capitol Hill are running from Abramoff, Republican Congressman Dana Rohrabacher sent this note. Quote, "Jack was a selfless patriot for most of the time I knew him."
The judge ruled Abramoff doesn't have to report to prison for another six months because of his ongoing cooperation in a separate federal corruption case, which could touch several members of Congress. That investigation, and a Senate probe, show a different side of Abramoff, calling his Indian clients "monkeys" and "morons" in e-mails, telling an associate, "can you smell the money"?
LATOURETTE: He wasn't that good, you know, when he was on top. And he's not that bad now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: So where will Abramoff serve his time? The Florida judge left that open, saying he'll work with defense attorneys to try to place Abramoff somewhere near his Washington-area home and at a facility where he can practice his orthodox Jewish faith. The judge also said he could reduce Abramoff's sentence pending the outcome of those other investigations -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Brian, thank you very much.
Up ahead, who do you trust to protect you and the nation's security? Would it be Democrats or would it be Republicans? That's Jack Cafferty's question of the hour. He's going to be back with your e-mail. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: "The Bottom Line" of the markets today. The Dow, Nasdaq and S&P were all up with the Nasdaq reaching a five year high.
Let's go right to New York. Jack Cafferty is standing by -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: Was that "The Bottom Line" you just did there?
BLITZER: I did.
CAFFERTY: Nice job.
BLITZER: Thank you. Short and sweet.
CAFFERTY: Are you guys going to dinner tonight?
BLITZER: We are.
CAFFERTY: The Democrats proposed their national security platform today, an election-year effort aimed at changing the public's perception that the Republicans are stronger on that issue. They vow to provide U.S. agents with the resources to, quote, "eliminate Osama bin Laden." And they ensure what they call a responsible redeployment of U.S. forces from Iraq in 2006. Republicans called it a stunt.
The question is how do Democrats compare to Republicans when it comes to national security?
Dave in Northville, Michigan, "I trust the Democrats more on national security only because there are very few of them running the big companies that are profiting from the current state of affairs."
Shawn in Pinon Hills, California, "You have to go to back to Kennedy, Truman and FDR to find a strong Democrat who knew how to find the pulse on security issues. Clinton wanted to please everyone and didn't want to burn any bridges. Gore and Kerry were more interested in polls than developing a cohesive plan. So when it comes to being a security-minded person, it doesn't take much to beat out the Democrats."
Bill in Key West, Florida, "The ploy of Democrats to gain political support by claiming to make troop withdrawals from Iraq within the next nine months is disarming to our military forces in Iraq and arming to the insurgents and disgraceful of the political leaders who use our young men and women in harm's way for political gain."
Jonathan in Columbia, Missouri, "Until either party realizes our country has borders and we need to secure them, they both stink."
Steven in Michigan, "The security that politicians from both sides are most concerned with is job security. And they will say whatever it takes to maintain it."
And Jim in Westport, Connecticut, "If the Democrats can convince the NASCAR dads that Osama bin Laden cut Dale Earnhardt's seat belt, they might have a chance. They have no clue what they are doing" -- Wolf.
Where are you going to dinner Wolf?
BLITZER: See you tomorrow Jack. We are going to the Radio TV Correspondent's Dinner in Washington. Wish you were here. Next year for you.
Still ahead, small towns surveillance. A look at an Alaskan town, where there is one camera for every 30 people. Is it security overkill? We'll tell you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Here's a look at some of the hot shots coming in from our friends at the Associated Press, pictures in your newspapers tomorrow.
South Korea, a child plays beside a marine landing craft doing a joint military exercise with the U.S.
Turkey, tourists joined about 2,000 school kids at an ancient Roman theater to watch the solar eclipse.
From Brazil to Mongolia, the total solar eclipse looked like this at its start, the rare heavenly event.
And in China, the manhunt finals. Contestants competed for the world's man-model title during Beijing's fashion week. Today's hot shots, pictures often worth a thousand words.
Major cities are spending millions of dollars in homeland security funds to install surveillance cameras in the name of security. But in Dillingham, Alaska, Abbi Tatton has the story -- Abbi.
ABBI TATTON, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Wolf, this is a city with 2,400 people and 80 surveillance cameras, all paid for by a grant from the Department of Homeland Security. That is one for every 30 people in this coastal community in Alaska. They are designed to reduce threats and monitor port activity.
I have been looking at them for a couple of days now and haven't seen much activity at all. I put that to City Manager John Fulton, who points out that this is a place where the population does triple in the summer, and he says that these cameras have resulted in past arrests -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Abbi, thank you very much.
That's it for me. "PAULA ZAHN NOW" starts right now. Carol Costello filling in -- Carol.
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