Return to Transcripts main page
The Situation Room
Echoes of Watergate in Washington; Senate Continues Debating Immigration; Political Fallout One Year After Terri Schiavo Death
Aired March 31, 2006 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Ali. And to our viewers, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time.
Standing by, CNN reporters across the United States and around the world to bring you today's top stories. Happening now, a symbol of scandal takes aim at the president. It's 4:00 p.m. here in Washington where Watergate figure John Dean is urging the U.S. Senate to censure Mr. Bush. Republicans are dismissing new moves to punish the president as an election year stunt by Democrats.
Also this hour, who is winning the immigration wars? Protesters and the president are sending strong messages to congress. It's 3:00 p.m. in Cancun, Mexico. We will tell you if Mr. Bush gained any ground in Mexico in the battle over borders.
And the death of Terri Schiavo, one year later. Top Republicans trying to intervene then, are they paying any price for it now? I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Up first this hour, echoes of Watergate here in Washington. The man who proclaimed a cancer on the Nixon presidency is once again a star witness. Today, John Dean is helping promote Senator Russ Feingold's call to censure President Bush. Dean is a long-time critic of Mr. Bush, but some Republicans are outraged anyway. Let's bring in our congressional correspondent Andrea Koppel. Andrea?
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, today's hearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee was a chance for Republicans, especially the chairman, Arlen Specter, to put Feingold on the hot seat and push back on Feingold's call to censure President Bush. But over the last two weeks, even though there are only two other Democrats who have come out to support Feingold, during today's hearing, Feingold did not back down.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. RUSS FEINGOLD (D), WISCONSIN: Do you know what word comes to mind, Mr. Chairman? It's a word that first came into my consciousness in 1974, cover-up.
KOPPEL (voice-over): And Feingold's star witness in making that case was former White House counsel John Dean, whose Watergate testimony implicated President Richard Nixon, who later resigned.
JOHN DEAN, FORMER NIXON COUNSEL: I think have probably more experience firsthand than anybody might want, in what can go wrong and how a president can get on the other side of the law.
KOPPEL: But Republicans seemed unimpressed by someone who went to jail for Watergate crimes.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: You know, when I was looking this morning at one of the witnesses that's going to be testifying, that's selling a book, and that is a convicted felon, it strikes me as very odd.
KOPPEL: Other witnesses said Dean was out of line in comparing Nixon's Watergate cover-up to President Bush's decision to authorize warrantless wiretaps.
LEE CASEY, ATTORNEY, BAKER & HOSTETLER: He did not break the law and there is no evidence that he has in any way misused the information collected. This is not Watergate.
FEINGOLD: when the president of the United States breaks the law, he must be held accountable.
KOPPEL: Since Feingold introduced his resolution to censure Bush, most Democrats have kept their distance. Only the committee's ranking member, Vermont Democrat Patrick Leahy, showed up.
FEINGOLD: The president broke the law of the United States of America.
KOPPEL: A new ad on the Republican National Committee's Web site portrays Feingold and other Democrats as weak on national security, while Senator Orrin Hatch implied Feingold, who was considering a presidential run in 2008, is playing politics.
SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), UTAH: Partisanship may be at a fever pitch around here these days, but war time is not a time to take steps that may weaken the commander-in-chief.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: But Feingold aides say the senator has a record of the independence. They point to Feingold being the only one to call for a vote on Clinton's impeachment for more evidence and then a special investigation into Clinton's campaign fundraising. They say that Senator Feingold is someone who calls them the way he sees them, Wolf.
BLITZER: Andrea Koppel on the Hill -- thanks, Andrea, very much.
Coming up, we'll have more big names taking on the censure question. Jack Cafferty will join us in a few moments, he's got a question on this very issue. And James Carville and Bay Buchanan, they'll go head-to-head in our "Strategy Session." That's coming up this hour.
Now to another hot-button issue on Capitol Hill, namely immigration. Today the Senate continued debating the bill that would let undocumented workers work toward legal status. This hour, President Bush is in Crawford, Texas, after wrapping up a summit meeting in Mexico. From south of the border, Mr. Bush called on Congress to pass a comprehensive immigration bill. Our senior national correspondent John Roberts is standing by, but let's go to the White House. Suzanne Malveaux has the latest on the president. Suzanne?
SUZANNE MALVEUAX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well Wolf, really from Cancun to Crawford, it doesn't get any more different than that. But the big question here is really what did the president get out of his two-day summit? Really not too much, when you look at it very carefully. You saw the president's pictures with him, with Vicente Fox of Mexico. Of course, Canada's Prime Minister Stephen Harper, all of them talking about broad-base issues, united when it comes to security, trade and energy.
But the bottom line, immigration reform still very much an unresolved, contentious issue here in the United States as well as Mexico. President Bush was trying to play to two audiences, his Mexican audience, his host of course, trying to reassure them there's a way through his guest worker program that could work temporarily in the United States. Illegal immigrants perhaps gain citizenship later.
And then also the American audience. Those in the Senate and also those very important conservative Republicans, his base, saying, "Look, he also believes in border control and security." But this is something that the president of course knows that he cannot satisfy both groups.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I expect the debate to bring dignity to America and recognition that America is a land of immigrants and people ought to be treated with respect. And this debate ought to be a debate that does not pit neighbor against neighbor, that focuses on three elements.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Of course those three elements, as we know, border security, interior security and the guest worker program. Wolf, the president, bottom line said that it's a messy process. So messy, he called it, "You know, it's like watching sausage being made." It might have been lost in the translation on Mexico's side, but certainly here, people got what he was saying. And according to Republicans that I've been talking too, it could be so messy that it may not be a bill that even really comes to fruition until after the midterm elections. Wolf?
BLITZER: All right, Suzanne, thanks very much. Let's examine some of the dueling immigration proposals now before the Congress. Our senior national correspondent John Roberts has been doing that, he's joining us live. John?
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good afternoon to you, Wolf. The Democrats have just got to be loving what's going on in Congress right now. They're sitting back watching the Republicans tear each other apart about what's proposed, what's possible and what might work.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS (voice-over): The centerpiece of the House bill is a border fence, much like this one. The trouble is, the barrier will only cover a -third of the 2,000-mile frontier, pushing migrants, critics say, into dangerous remote deserts or rivers to cross the border. And the ad, "Show me a 10-foot fence, I'll show you a 12-foot ladder."
DEBORAH MEYERS, MIGRATION POLICY INSTITUTE: Our experience today with the fences is that migrants have gone around the fences or have gone under the fences, or have entered the United States at legal points of entry using fraudulent documents.
ROBERTS: The Senate would create a virtual wall, with unmanned drones and cameras, doubling the number of border agents by 2011. But the border patrol has tripled in size in the past two decades.
At the same time, the number of illegal immigrants skyrocketed. What's more, an estimated 40 percent of undocumented immigrants entered legally as visitors, then just never went home. And here's a stunning figure, 95 percent of undocumented men found work.
MEYERS: If we do more of the same in terms of enforcement, I would expect more of the same in terms of continuing growth of the undocumented population.
ROBERTS: Finding a solution has split the Republican Party. Most House Republicans reject anything that resembles amnesty. They want all illegal immigrants declared felons. Huge protests against the plan only seemed to galvanize them.
REP. VIRGIL GOODE JR. (R), VIRGINIA: I say if you are here illegally and you want to fly the Mexican flag, go to Mexico to fly the Mexican flag.
ROBERTS: But some Senate Republicans and the White House want to pass a legal status. Hearing scenes like this could hurt their standing, not only with Hispanic voters, but with other groups, like suburban women.
CHUCK TODD, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE HOTLINE: The minute it gets touched with immigrant bashing and becomes sort of a racial or ethnic attack, boy, those moderate Republicans lead the party in droves.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: And because of that, there may be some movement possible in the House. The Republican leadership wants to be careful not to offend people who want a guest worker program. So when might an immigration program get done? Some Republicans think they could have something by the Fourth of July weekend, the August recess at the latest for it to be useful in this election year. As to what it will be, they just don't know at this point. Wolf? BLITZER: John, there's a sense I'm getting though that the Republican leadership in the House, the speaker, specifically, John Boehner, the majority leader, they seem to be moving a little bit closer toward what the president wants on this guest worker program, putting them perhaps more in line with what the Senate has in mind.
ROBERTS: Correct, that's who I was referring to. There's a sense, as I said, they don't want to offend people who are in favor of the a guest worker program. There's also a sense that what passed the House late last year is a little too draconian, obviously prompting those huge protests, and it's just something that the Republicans don't like to see, because even though many of those protesters may not have the right to vote, there are an awful lot of Hispanics who support them who do. And you lose the Hispanic vote, Wolf, you lose the election.
BLITZER: John Roberts, thanks very much -- John reporting for us.
Another big protest today, by the way, against some of the toughest immigration measures before Congress. Thousands of students marched in several California cities, including San Diego. Authorities say the demonstrations were peaceful. Time now for Jack Cafferty and "The Cafferty File." Hi, Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, how are you doing?
It can't be a good day for President Bush when a former Nixon aide says Bush should be censured. Nixon White House counsel John Dean said the president's domestic spying is worse than what drove his former boss, Richard Nixon, from the White House.
Dean said President Bush needs, quote, "to be told he cannot simply ignore a law with no consequences," un quote. If Congress doesn't censure the president, Dean said it should pass some kind of measure as a warning to him.
Dean's remarks came during Senate hearings on Senator Russ Feingold's resolution to censure President Bush. Republicans have dismissed Feingold's resolution as an election-year stunt. And so far, only two Democrats have publicly supported Feingold's measure. So here's the question. What does it mean when a former Nixon aide says President Bush should be censured. E-mail us at CaffertyFile@CNN.com or go to CNN.com/CaffertyFile.
If nothing else, John Dean is someone who knows of what he speaks, I suppose, Wolf.
BLITZER: He knows the subject. He wrote a book not that long ago, "Worse than Watergate," in which he goes after the president, not necessarily for this surveillance program, but for the whole war issue and a lot of other issues. He's really emerged in recent years as a major Bush basher.
CAFFERTY: Another rehabilitated member of the Nixon administration. BLITZER: Yes, he's really gone 180 degrees. Thanks very much, Jack, we'll see what our viewers think.
Coming up, it was one year ago today that Terri Schiavo died. The protests of the debate over her life and death dominated the nation. All of us remember those days. But did the political controversy have a lasting impact?
Plus, France's president says he'll press ahead with a new law in spite of massive protests. We'll find out how they're reacting right now on the streets of Paris.
And later, pleas for help from inside the World Trade Center and those who heard them. We're going to listen to those 911 tapes from September 11th that have just been made public. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's check in with our Zain Verjee. She's joining us now from the CNN global headquarters in Atlanta with a closer look at some other stories making news. Zain?
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, French protesters on the march earlier today, even before hearing from their leader on a contentious new labor law. Just a few hours ago, President Jacques Chirac announced that he would sign the measure making it easier to fire young workers. But he's offering a few changes to tighten the law. In a televised address today, Mr. Chirac said that he would reduce the on-the-job trial period from two years to one. And he'd require employers to submit reasons for termination.
The owner of a party boat that capsized with fatal consequences last night in the Persian Gulf, may have been overcrowded. More than a dozen people remain unaccounted for after the accident off the coast of Bahrain. The group was celebrating the completion of a key phase in construction of the World Trade Center in Bahrain's capital. At least 57 bodies have been recovered, almost 70 people survived.
In western Iran, little is left standing in the wake of three strong earthquakes and a series of aftershocks that shook the mountainous region earlier today. The quakes ranged in magnitude from 4.7 to 6.1. Dozens of people are dead, more than 1,000 are injured. Wolf?
BLITZER: Zain, thanks very much.
On this day one year ago, Terri Schiavo's life ended and so did a fierce political battle over efforts to remove the brain-damaged woman's feeding tube. Some of Washington's most powerful and conservative Republicans seized on her case. Is there any fallout now exactly one year later? Let's bring in our senior political correspondent, Candy Crowley? Candy?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, Ellen Goodman, a syndicated columnist summed up the net political effect of the Terri Schiavo with this question. Suppose they gave a culture war and nobody came?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY (voice-over): In the year since Terri Schiavo died, her parents and her husband grieved in their polarities. Now they publish dueling books, make dueling T.V. appearances, push dueling T.V. Terri- inspired causes. The parents want new laws giving government protection to those who can't speak for themselves.
MARY SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO'S MOTHER: To saving the lives of the innocent who every day are being targeted by the euthanasia cult.
CROWLEY: Michael Schiavo wants accountability for what he sees as government interference in Terri's case.
MICHAEL SCHIAVO, TERRI SCHIAVO'S HUSBAND: Yes, they're elected there to a job of running this country, not our lives, not our personal lives.
CROWLEY: Terri's death is ever a part of the lives of her family. But mostly, the body politic has moved on. The political potency of the Terri Schiavo case has been diluted by time and other headlines, Katrina and an unpopular war. It rarely comes up on the '06 or '08 campaign trail and only one lawmaker, Senator Sam Brownback, showed up for the parents news conference with a minimalist agenda.
SEN. SAM BROWNBACK (R), KANSAS: I'm hopeful that we're going to be able to hold some hearings on the important issue of the movement.
CROWLEY: Which is not to say there wasn't any political impact. In the months before the Schiavo case, congressional Republicans were riding high off the 2004 presidential win. Their popularity figures in the above 50-percent region.
KEATING HOLLAND, CNN POLLING DIRECTOR: After Terri Schiavo and ever since Terri Schiavo, the party's favorable ratings have been in the low to mid 40s. Terri Schiavo's not the reason why the Republican Party's favorable ratings are still low, but I think they're the reason that they dropped under 50 percent a year ago.
CROWLEY: Still in the end, the legacy of Terri Schiavo is not a culture war started in the halls of Congress, but the conversations started around the kitchen tables of the country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY: One Internet registry, which houses document, specifying end-of-life directions for doctors and loved one, says the number of advanced directives it has stored rose from 10,000-to-40,000 in the year since Terri Schiavo died. Wolf?
BLITZER: Candy, thank you very much -- Candy Crowley reporting.
Coming up, much more on our top story, today's hearing on censuring President Bush. Which party actually gains from this debate? I'll ask two experts, James Carville and Bay Buchanan, they're standing by.
Plus, the political battle over illegal immigrants is being played out right now on Capitol Hill. But how will it affect this November's election? We'll hash it out in today's "Strategy Session." Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Just getting in some brand new poll numbers from our sister publication "Time" magazine. New poll numbers on how the American people are reacting to the issue of immigration reform, specifically the issue of a guest worker program in the United States. I think you're going to be surprised when you see the results.
Also, new numbers on President Bush's job approval rating. All that coming up. Also, Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney speaking out forcefully on her scuffle with a Capitol Hill police officer. We're going to get that situation online. And border security, topic No. 1 at the president's summit down in Mexico. It will be topic No. 1 as well, in our 7 p.m. Eastern hour here in THE SITUATION ROOM. CNN's Lou Dobbs takes on Univision's Jorge Ramos. You won't want to miss that. All that coming up, stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Here in Washington, the battle lines are drawn over immigration reform, but the partisan lines are not entirely clear. Our senior analyst, Jeff Greenfield is following the border wars, he's joining us from New York. Jeff?
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: Wolf, it does not sound like a trick question to ask, what is the conservative position on immigration? After all, if you ask that about say, domestic spending or the federal courts or abortion, you can get a reasonably clear answer. But on immigration?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GREENFIELD (voice-over): Senators John McCain and Chuck Hagel, both with an eye or two on the presidency, have staunchly conservative voting records. Congressman Jeff Flake has been tough on the Republican Party for not being conservative enough on issues like spending. But they all support putting illegal immigrants on a path to citizenship, an idea the Senate Judiciary Committee adopted this week.
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist also looking to the White House, is usually seen as a shade more centrist. But his idea is a much more at crackering down on illegal immigration. And he's very cool towards the Judiciary Committee bill.
House Republicans, like Wisconsin's Sensenbrenner, Arizona's Hayworth and California's Rohrabacher, conservatives all, oppose any idea of eventual citizenship, amnesty they call it.
In Colorado, Congressman Tom Tancredo wants a fence and stepped up deportation. And Tancredo, who may enter the Republican presidential primaries to dramatize this issue, unleashed a strong attack on Kansas Republican Senator Sam Brownback, himself looking at a presidential run from a firmly conservative position.
Tancredo strongly opposes Brownback's support of a guest worker path to citizenship policy. He called Brownback as left as they come on the issue. That is probably the first time anyone ever called Senator Brownback left on anything.
Columnist, commentator, and long-time presidential candidate Pat Buchanan, one of the most prominent conservative voices of his generation, says such immigration poses a threat to what he says is the essentially European heritage of the United States.
While the "Wall Street Journal" editorial page, a rigorously conservative forum, says the hard liners on this issue are turning their backs on Ronald Reagan, the icon of just about every conservative.
The House bill, it says, "will make permanent enemies of millions of Hispanics without doing anything to draw illegals out of the shadows and help them assimilate into the mainstream of American culture and citizenship."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GREENFIELD: Now it's not as though liberals have a completely consistent view either. Organize labor, for instance, in general, is cruel toward massive immigration because they fear a tendency to depress wages. That's something liberal "New York Times" columnist Paul Krugman cited today. But right now, the divide among conservatives looks like the kind of debate that could even end up shaping the early battle lines of the next, still far off presidential campaign. Wolf?
BLITZER: Jeff, a lot of the conservative base of the Republican Party say this is a great debate for them because it galvanizes and energizes that base. And in a midterm election, you need voter turnout, which would be great because of this kind of issue. Forget about how Hispanics or Latinos, they say, might be voting.
GREENFIELD: See here again, Wolf, you want me to figure out what's going to happen in elections, say what, eight months or better yet, two years and eight months from now? I think what this demonstrates is that a term like conservative, particularly when you put it on a party that is essentially the governing party, it's too broad a term.
If you're a business conservative, you like immigration, in part, because it does give you a better or a bigger and cheaper labor supply. If you're more of a kind of conservative that worries about multi-culturalism, you're very hostile to immigration. So there is no one conservative view on this, and whether this fractures the Republican base or energizes it, Wolf, this is just above my peg rate. If I could see the future, I would buy the Mega Millions ticket and you'd never see me again. BLITZER: That's not true. You love this work so much, no matter how many millions you won, you would still be here in THE SITUATION ROOM. Jeff?
GREENFIELD: Yes.
BLITZER: OK, just wanted that confirmation. Thank you very much, have a great weekend.
On our political radar this Friday, a former top aide to Congressman Tom DeLay today pleaded guilty to conspiracy. And Tony Rudy promised to cooperate with prosecutors investigating lobbying fraud. Rudy said he joined a scheme with disgraced lobbyist Jack Abramoff and others to illegally influence members of Congress. He could receive up to five years in prison.
The conspiracy took place after Rudy left DeLay's office to become a lobbyist. The plea agreement does not specifically name DeLay or accuse him of any wrongdoing.
Congressman Cynthia McKinney is waiting for word on whether she'll be charged for apparently striking a Capitol Hill police officer. The incident happened earlier in the week when the Georgia Democrat entered a House office unrecognized and did not stop when asked.
The lawyer says McKinney, and quoting now, "Wwas a victim of being in Congress while being black." We're expecting McKinney and her lawyer to hold a news conference about an hour from now. We'll let you know what they say.
In the meantime, Congresswoman McKinney is voicing her side of the story online. Let's get that story from our Internet reporter, Jacki Schechner -- Jacki?
JACKI SCHECHNER, INTERNET REPORTER: Wolf, this is the congresswoman's Web site here, and she posts a statement saying she regrets the indent with Capitol Hill police. But interesting to now, she also posted a segment from a documentary called American Blackout film captures the history of McKinney and Capitol Hill Police. Let's take a little look at a clip from this documentary. You can see here where she encounters a Capitol police officer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CYNTHIA MCKINNEY (D), GEORGIA: That's just the typical kind of treatment that I received. It's typical. So I'm not surprised, and I'm not offended. OK. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHECHNER: You can see McKinney there off to the side. Now, at the end of this documentary, she also quotes the rapper Tupac Ssaying, some things never change. We thought this was interesting because just last year, she introduced a bill called the Tupac Shakur Records Collection Act of 2005. She wants the release what she calls secret documents from the government that may lead to the solving of his 1996 murder. By the way, we put in several calls to her office, Wolf. We did not get any response.
BLITZER: All right. We're expecting to hear from her, and that's coming up this later this afternoon. We'll have that comment from her here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Also, coming up, that brand new poll from our sister publication, "Time" magazine on immigration, the president's job approval. We're standing by for that. We'll get that to you right away.
Also, more immigration protests, more politics. Who's getting the most mileage out of marches and the maneuvering on Capitol Hill? Bay Buchanan, James Carville standing by.
Also ahead, on patrol on the border. The so-called Minutemen are making a comeback. Should they be taking border security into their own hands? You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Today in our strategy session, a Senate hearing looks at whether the president deserves to be censured over wiretapping without a court's permission. Is this a winning issue for either party? Why are some warning that impeachment could be next? Joining us now, CNN political analyst, Democratic strategist James Ccarville and Bay Buchanan, the president of American Cause.
Thanks very much to both of you. Listen to Russ Feingold. He's the leading architect, if you will, supporter of censuring the president for the warrantless wiretaps. Listen to what he said today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FEINGOLD: We can fight terrorism without breaking the law. The rule of law is central to who we are as a people. And the president must return to the law. He must acknowledge and be held accountable for his illegal actions and also for misleading the American people both before and after the program was revealed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Bay, as you know, historically, a lot of conservatives have been very wary of the federal government listening in on phone conversations.
BAY BUCHANAN, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN CAUSE: Sure they have. But the polls show there is no question. They have no difficulty whatsoever with the president doing -- the majority of Americans -- actually listening to terrorist phone calls, whether they're coming into this country or otherwise. Because they feel, without question, he is trying to protect them and their families.
BLITZER: Is this a winning strategy for the Democrats? BUCHANAN: No. But I'll tell you who it's a winning strategy for: Feingold. He's running for president. What he's doing -- support of that wing of his party that is outraged over the war, that cannot stand George Bush. And I think he's energizing that base for the next couple years.
BLITZER: I want James to weigh in. But listen to Lindsey Graham before you do, James. Lindsey Graham, a Republican senator from South Carolina.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: The idea of censuring the president for surveiling the enemy after notifying Congress to me is way beyond what would be appropriate and would have the effect of killing the program.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Is this a winning strategy for Democrats?
JAMES CARVILLE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, I don't know if it's a winning strategy for Democrats. As Bay said, (inaudible). But you know, like 40 percent of Americans support this. This is not something that is without support. The chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Senator Specter, said while he doesn't support it, he takes it very seriously.
So I think the best thing to do is have these hearings. I seriously doubt, given the makeup of the Senate and given the way the Democrats are, this is going to pass. But you know what? A little discuss, a little light might not hurt anything.
It may help Senator Feingold in the process. But the American, and particularly people in the media, ought to say, "Hey let's hear this thing out." Because this is an issue that's not going to go away for a long time.
BLITZER: There aren't a whole lot of Democrats jumping on the Russ Feingold's bandwagon.
CARVILLE: No. But again, Senator Specter says it's very serious. It ought to be looked at. He doesn't support it, and I think a lot of Democrats would do well to see what the evidence is, have people come up and testify what the law is.
BUCHANAN: They might want to do better than John Dean, though.
BLITZER: Let's make the turn to immigration. A brand new poll just out moments ago from our sister publication, "Time" magazine, asked this question, do you favor or oppose the guest worker program, the one advanced the president? Bay, 79 percent of the American public said they favor it, 18 percent -- small minority -- oppose it. You strongly oppose it.
BUCHANAN: Well, I strongly oppose it. And also, I disagree with the poll entirely. There was a poll earlier this month that specifically the outline and explained what a guest worker was, et cetera. And it was 59 percent opposed after it was explained.
BLITZER: Now, which poll was that?
BUCHANAN: I believe it was NBC. But it was -- it's a very legitimate poll. It wasn't we're lying (ph), Wolf. And they're overwhelmingly opposed. The Americans have recognized there is no guest worker program that has ever worked in this country, and that it really always, always turns into amnesty. They are opposed to that.
BLITZER: What do you think?
CARVILLE: I think people are conflicted by this. I mean, in the sense that they know people in here, they know people are working. A lot of these people contribute lively to this society. Many of these immigrants I know -- and I suspect some of them may even be illegal -- are really good and decent people.
By the same token, I do think people are concerned that the border is porous. And hopefully, they'll come up with something in Congress that tightens things up but recognizes the reality of people being here. I'll tell you, the business base of the Republican Party is not very excited about this at all.
And it's a very, very tough issue. But there's going to be some kind of -- almost has to be some kind of a provision that the president supports that allows people that are here to go through some kind of process to stay here.
BLITZER: You know, that business base of the Republican Party, the conservative win Jeff Greenfield was talking about it, specifically mentioning the "Wall Street Journal" editorial page. They wrote this, "The immediate danger is that Republicans will ignore their longer term interests by passing a punitive and poll-driven anti-immigration bill this election year. It will make permanent enemies of millions of Hispanics." This is a concern that a lot of Republicans have, Bay.
BUCHANAN: Yes. A growing minority, I might add. "Wall Street Journal," as you know, is a mouthpiece for Corporate America. Corporate America has their grips absolutely the have controlling this U.S. Senate. This whole debate is being pushed by corporations.
Americans are unified. It's not just Republicans. It's Democrats, independents are unified. They want their borders secured, and they want laws enforced. They want them now. They don't believe the federal government is doing it, and they don't believe that all this talk means they're going to do it.
They want that done first, and they want to be convinced of that. And I'll tell you, Wolf, this is an issue that could take out Republicans if it's not resolved on the side of the American people this November.
BLITZER: You know, Congressman Steven King made that point at a news conference yesterday with Tom Tancredo. Listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. STEVE KING (R), IOWA: I will tell that you if a bill is voted on over in the Senate that has guest worker, temporary worker, it will be amnesty. And anybody that votes for an amnesty bill deserves to be branded with a scarlet letter A for amnesty, and they need to pay for it in the ballot box in November.
BLITZER: What do I think about that?
CARVILLE: What do I think about it?
BLITZER: Yes.
CARVILLE: I think the guy is a bit out of control. The last time I mentioned the "Wall Street Journal" editorial page, Bob Novak walked off the set here on CNN, so I'm a little scared to mention -- to talk about these guys. It's kind of a bad thing.
BLITZER: He not only walked off, he walked off in a huff.
CARVILLE: I don't know if I want to pick that snake up right now. But having said that, there's a tremendous friction. But you know, I think a lot of people understand we've got 12 million illegal immigrants in this country. George Will pointed out to me, if you deported them all, the bus line would go from Columbus, Ohio, to Mexico. This guy is like popping his mouth off. He's some right wing guy out listening to himself talk. But so what.
BLITZER: Bay Buchanan is one of those right wing guys, too. She's going to be the Minutemen.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Tell our viewers, Bay, what you're going to be doing this weekend.
BUCHANAN: Tomorrow, I'm speaking there. Just like last year, April 1 is the day where they went down to the border of Arizona and began the Minuteman Project. And so they're going to do it again this month in Arizona, and I'll be there tomorrow to speak to them and encourage them. And I'm honored to be there.
BLITZER: What do you say to those people call the vigilantes, and they're really making matters even worse?
BUCHANAN: I fine it funny that they call these people vigilantes. These are people who voted for Bush two or three times. Their weapons are cell phones and lawn chairs and binoculars. This is what they use. The Border Patrol love these fellows. The ones who love them even more is the property owners down there. They have resolved the issue. When they're there, there's no problem. The ranchers were thrilled.
CARVILLE: I want to make a distinction here. Border security, border enforcement, I don't know of anybody that's against that. What Congressman King was popping off about was not border security. It's about what do you do with 12 million people that are already here.
And do you give them some kind a process that they pay a fine, they learn English, they do some things where they stay here? So they're two entirely separate things. I don't know. I've never seen anybody say we shouldn't have more border security.
BUCHANAN: They are very tied. You can't do one until you secure the border. It has to be the first step.
BLITZER: We'll leave it there, because we've got to get ready for a big basketball game tomorrow night.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Be careful over there on the border. Thanks to both of you for joining.
More on the immigration wars. It's a conflict that's far from over. But there are some very early victories. Let's bring in our senior political analyst, Bill Schneider -- Bill?
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Wolf, this week it became clear for the first time that there are two sides on the illegal immigration issue. The other side came out, they changed the debate, and they earned the political play of the week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: Until this week, illegal immigration was a one-sided issue. It was just like the Dubai ports deal. Everybody was against it, except the president and some special interests.
But this week, another side appeared. Urged on by Spanish language radio announcers, Hispanic-Americans, immigrants, and their sympathizers took to the streets across the country to protest what they regard as measures that would unfairly penalize immigrants and minorities.
EDDIE SOTELO, SPANISH RADIO HOST: I call all, you know, all the stations, all the radio announcers in the morning, and I invite them to be together and to do the march as a team. And they did it. They said, "Yes, let's do it. Let's forget about competition."
SCHNEIDER: The protests gave political voices to those who favor what is, in their view, a realistic and humane immigration policy. Activists on the other side threaten to backlash at the polls.
KING: Anybody that votes for an amnesty bill deserves with the scarlet letter A for amnesty. And they need to pay for it in the ballot box in November.
SCHNEIDER: But Hispanics also threaten to make this a voting issue. SOTELO: It's really important that our people start voting, you know, because that's where we're going to be able to make the difference and send a message to all the political guys that we have in Washington and understand that we count, too.
SCHNEIDER: The protests turned the issue into a two-sided debate. Faced with pressure from both sides, politicians did what they often do. They waivered.
REP. DENNIS HASTERT (R-IL), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We're going to look at all alternatives. We're not going to discount anything right now.
SCHNEIDER: The protestors are making this a two-sided debate. That's no small thing. In fact, it's the political play of week.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: The pro-immigrant coalition includes business and labor unions that depend on immigrant workers. Plus, the Catholic Church and charities whose to aid illegal immigrants could be criminalized. And student protestors and President Bush. Now when was the last time you saw them together on the same side -- Wolf?
BLITZER: Bill, this "Time" magazine poll that just came out -- do you favor or oppose the guest work program -- 79 percent say they favor it. Only 18 percent say they opposed the guest worker program. Have you had a chance to take a look at the methodology, the questions, to see the validity, if you will, of this poll?
SCHNEIDER: Wolf, I just got a look at this poll just in the last few minutes when it came out. And so I haven't examined the methodology with great care. Some of the questions do coincide with other findings.
For instance, in this poll, people do favor tough border enforcement. Sixty-two percent said they favor whatever steps are necessary at the borders, including the use of the military to cut the flow of illegal immigrants; 56 percent favor building a security fence along the border. And 71 percent support major penalties for employers who hire illegals.
But some of the poll is surprising, and not entirely consistent with other polls that have been asked on this subject. One of them says, "Which comes closest to your views? Allow illegal immigrants to get temporary work visas," which is President Bush's position; 72 percent endorse that.
The alternative position is similar to the House Bill. Make illegal immigration a crime and not allow to entered the country illegally to work or stay in the United States. Only 25 percent endorsed that. That's a surprise, and we'll be looking at that very closely in comparing various polls.
BLITZER: I noticed in this poll, the president's job approval number is at 37 percent, which is a record low for the "Time" magazine poll, but it's consistent with a lot of the numbers, not only the CNN- "USA Today"-Gallup poll, but a lot of other polls as well.
SCHNEIDER: That's about the same as other polls, which indicated the sample is consistent with other polls.
BLITZER: Bill Schneider, thanks very much. And welcome back. Bill was in Israel covering the Israeli election earlier in the week. Did an excellent job, as he always does.
Up next, he's out of the process he has no shortage of opinions. That would be the former president of the United States, Bill Clinton. He reveals his take on the hot political topic of the day, immigration. That's coming up.
And later, an infamous fleet of school buses unused and ruined by Hurricane Katrina. But New Orleans school officials just got a very bright idea that could have them laughing all the way to the bank. Can you say Ebay? You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's go right to Zain Verjee once again at the CNN global headquarters in Atlanta with some other stories making news -- Zain?
VERJEE: Wolf, everyone with anything to say about immigration is adding his two cents to the debate. And that includes former president Bill Clinton. He sat down today for a conversation with CNN's Larry king.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING: So are you saying you generally support President Bush?
CLINTON: I think the president has a good idea in terms of wanting to give people a path to citizenship and have increased border enforcement. That's also the idea behind the bill sponsored by Senator McCain and Senator Kennedy in the Senate. I think the House provisions have, by and large, been too punitive.
Now, the one thing I would say, and the senators have emphasized, I don't think this guest worker program that the president supports should be totally unlimited, either -- in other words, I think if there's just no limit on it, then it's going to be very difficult for us to enforce the existing labor laws.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VERJEE: And World, you can catch Larry's entire conversation with President Clinton a little bit later tonight on "LARRY KING LIVE." That's at 9:00 p.m. Eastern and 6:00 Pacific -- Wolf?
BLITZER: Zain, thank you very much.
None of us will forget those iconic images of hundreds of yellow school buses submerged in Hurricane Katrina floodwaters. Now, the New Orleans public school system has an extraordinary idea. Our Internet reporter, Abbi Tatton, is joining us to explain -- Abbi?
ABBI TATTON, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Wolf, they're selling them on Ebay. Well, this one right here, to be exact. It's a 1993 Bluebird Orleans Parish school bus, 147,000 miles. Current bid, $5,700. But it's still got a week to go.
Does it work? Well, no. Not exactly. The advertisement makes it clear that this is a bus that was actually submerged for over ten days, and it would need extensive repair to actually run.
The management company working with the New Orleans School District said they came up with this idea because the district is millions of dollars in debt with little revenue coming in. So they thought they'd put on online. And If this one goes well, there's 250 more where that came from -- Wolf?
BLITZER: All right. We'll see how much money they can raise. Thanks very much, Abbi, for that.
Still to come here in THE SITUATION ROOM, the political power behind John Dean's words. What's your take on the Watergate figure's call to censure President Bush? Jack Cafferty will be back with your email.
And a new controversy over body armor for American forces in Iraq. We'll have a live report from the Pentagon on warnings about safety. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's head up to New York and Jack Cafferty with "The Cafferty File."
Hi, Jack.
CAFFERTY: Hi, Wolf. Former Nixon White House counsel John Dean says the Senate should censure President Bush for his domestic spying program.
Dean's remark came during hearings in the Senate on Russ Feingold's resolution to censure the president. Republicans say this resolution is an election year stunt. The question we asked is, what does it mean when a former Nixon aide says President Bush should be censured?
Marge in Huntington, New York: "Senator's Feingold's resolution to censure Bush is the most reasonable idea on the table so far. It'll start the process of restoring checks and balance to our government. What some of these politicians seem to forget is that we are all watching you, from the Terry Schiavo outrage to this unwillingness to hold anyone accountable for their actions. November can't come soon enough."
David in Thousand Oaks, California: "It means absolutely nothing when a convicted felon pushing his latest book and look for absolution from his new friends in the press and the Democratic Party calls for the censure of the president."
Gavin in Baton Rouge, Louisiana: "Of course censure's appropriate. Indeed, in itself, it's merely a slap on the wrist. The FISA law is not vaguely written and subject to interpretation. The warrant requirement is clear. Bush chose to ignore this, and in so doing, broke the law consciously and knowingly.
Joann in Ohio: "Bush should be censured, but that would be too straightforward for Congress."
And Melvin in Lansing, Kansas: "Congress should have taken action to censure or otherwise check presidential power before it made him a folk hero. Congress is finding courage now because members are afraid of their seats. Dean's comments have little weight."
This weekend on "In the Money," we invite you to join us. We'll tell you how companies can reach the rest of us by chasing after those scantily clad college kids on spring break. The high price to your self-esteem that can follow being laid off.
And some early signs that some meaningful things are beginning to happen in the fight against global warming. That's "In the Money," Saturday at 1:00, Sunday at 3:00 Eastern. We invite you to join us. That means you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Well, can you give us a little preview, Jack? What meaningful things are happening to prevent global warming?
CAFFERTY: Just that there's an improvement in technology that is being adopted by some companies. They did a survey, this guest that we have on, of the 100 top companies in terms of aggressively pursuing a battle against global warming. Dupont, surprisingly -- "Better living through chemistry," I think used to be their slogan -- is one of those employing new technology. And they see it as a way to increase profits down the road.
And we also talk a little bit about investment opportunities for folks like you and me in companies that have the vision to see where this is all leading us. Our guest contends in five or ten or 20 years, we will have no choice but to aggressively combat global warming and change the way we're burning energy and doing other things. It's pretty interesting stuff.
BLITZER: Jack Cafferty's "IN THE MONEY" here, Saturdays, 1:00 p.m. Eastern, Sunday 3:00 p.m. Eastern. "IN THE MONEY" with Jack, check it out this weekend.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
