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The Situation Room
John Dean Calls for Censure of President Bush; Debate Over Immigration Reform
Aired March 31, 2006 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: And to our viewers, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time.
Standing by, CNN reporters across the United States and around the world to bring you tonight's top stories.
Happening now, a symbol of White House scandal is calling for the censure of President Bush.
It's 7:00 p.m. here in Washington, where Watergate figure John Dean was once again a star witness before the U.S. Senate.
Also this hour, 911 calls from 9/11 finally released. A new window into the fear and confusion on that dreadful day.
It's 7:00 p.m. in New York. Did the families who fought to hear the tapes get what they were hoping for?
And Bill Clinton now taking sides in the heated battle over borders. Find out where the former president stands.
And we'll also hear from two of the most passionate adversaries on this issue, Lou Dobbs and Jorge Ramos.
I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Tonight, a searing question on Capitol Hill. Is there any comparison between the president's domestic spying program and the abuse of power that brought down President Richard Nixon? The Watergate figure John Dean says yes.
Today he made his case to senators considering a resolution to censure President Bush. Republicans fired right back, accusing Democrats behind the push for censure of an election year stunt.
Let's bring in our congressional correspondent, Andrea Koppel -- Andrea.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, today's hearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee was really a prime opportunity for Republicans to turn the tables on Senator Feingold and put him on the hot seat. But as you'll hear, Senator Feingold, far from being apologetic, did not back down.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. RUSS FEINGOLD (D), WISCONSIN: Do you know what word comes to mind, Mr. Chairman? It's a word that first came into my consciousness in 1974, cover-up.
KOPPEL (voice-over): And Feingold's star witness in making that case was former White House counsel John Dean, whose Watergate testimony implicated President Richard Nixon, who later resigned.
JOHN DEAN, FORMER NIXON COUNSEL: I think have probably more experience firsthand than anybody might want, in what can go wrong and how a president can get on the other side of the law.
KOPPEL: But Republicans seemed unimpressed by someone who went to jail for Watergate crimes.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: You know, when I was looking this morning at one of the witnesses that's going to be testifying, that's selling a book, and that is a convicted felon, it strikes me as very odd.
KOPPEL: Other witnesses said Dean was out of line in comparing Nixon's Watergate cover-up to President Bush's decision to authorize warrantless wiretaps.
LEE CASEY, ATTORNEY, BAKER & HOSTETLER: He did not break the law and there is no evidence that he has in any way misused the information collected. This is not Watergate.
FEINGOLD: When the president of the United States breaks the law, he must be held accountable.
KOPPEL: Since Feingold introduced his resolution to censure Bush, most Democrats have kept their distance. Only the committee's ranking member, Vermont Democrat Patrick Leahy, showed up.
FEINGOLD: The president broke the law of the United States of America.
KOPPEL: A new ad on the Republican National Committee's Web site portrays Feingold and other Democrats as weak on national security, while Senator Orrin Hatch implied Feingold, who was considering a presidential run in 2008, is playing politics.
SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), UTAH: Partisanship may be at a fever pitch around here these days, but war time is not a time to take steps that may weaken the commander-in-chief.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: Feingold staffers defend their boss, saying that he has a record of independence. And Wolf, they say he just calls them the way he sees them -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Andrea, thank you very much.
Let's move on to the red-hot debate now over immigration.
A brand new "TIME" magazine poll shows 79 percent of Americans support a guest worker program for illegal immigrants already working in this country so the government can track them. But that's not necessarily an endorsement of the president's policies, because take a look at this. Fifty-six percent of those surveyed in the "TIME" magazine poll say they disapprove of the way Mr. Bush is handling the immigration problem.
Tonight the president is back in the U.S. after a summit in Mexico, where immigration certainly was topic number one.
Let's check in with our White House correspondent, Ed Henry -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, President Bush has returned from Cancun to Crawford with the same political problem he had before the trip, the immigration debate is still splitting the Republican Party right down the middle with the president insisting he wants border security, plus some sort of a guest worker program to deal with the nearly 12 million illegal immigrants already here in the country. But many Republican members of Congress dismiss this as an amnesty program that will repel conservative voters heading into the midterm elections. Other Republicans look at the protest all around the country and think that Republicans instead are going to be turning off Hispanic voters heading into the midterms.
The president is trying to find some middle ground, saying that he thinks there's a way to treat these illegal immigrants already here with respect while still also securing the borders.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We've got long borders, and we've got to make sure we work hard to secure the borders. And we've also got to make sure we've got smart borders. And so the whole vision of our borders has got to be to enhance trade and tourism but to prevent smugglers and terrorists and dope runners from polluting our countries.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: The president dodged a question about whether or not he would veto any final bill that does not include a guest worker program. But he may never get a chance to decide on a veto. It's very possible, according to lawmakers in both parties, that Congress may end up stalemating and not pass any final product. It's just a very hot political potato to deal with in an election year -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Thanks very much.
Ed Henry at the White House.
Immigration reform is obviously inspiring a huge debate in this country. Two people with very strong opinions will be here for their own debate. CNN's own Lou Dobbs and Univision anchor Jorge Ramos, they'll go one-on-one. That's coming up here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Meanwhile, U.S. soldiers in Iraq will no longer be allowed to wear body armor bought by themselves or their family members.
Our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, shows us why officials are now requiring the use of Army-issued body armor -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, in banning the commercial body armor, the Army has singled out one company in particular for selling substandard vests to U.S. troops. That company has fired back, accusing the Army of outright deceit.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice over): In company-sponsored demonstrations like this one, Pinnacle Armor of Fresno, California, touts its Dragon Skin vest as "state-of-the-art protection" for police and military alike. But the Army has issued what it calls a safety of use message, banning the vest and other commercial body armor from the battlefield, warning, danger, death or serious injury could result if soldiers use the over-the-counter vest instead of their standard-issued body armor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fact of the matter is, they have not met the Army standard to date.
MCINTYRE: The Army says while there was a body armor shortage for about a year right after the invasion of Iraq, it insists since early 2004, every soldier in both Iraq and Afghanistan have been issued body armor. And as of early this year, all soldiers have access to improved armor, including shoulder pads and side protection.
Some soldiers say they prefer the more comfortable design of the Dragon Skin vest. But the Army says it's gone to a lot of expense getting the best protection for its troops and it doesn't want them wearing anything less.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's the facts of life. I mean, you can meet the Army standard, we'll field. You can't meet, we don't field.
MCINTYRE: The Army says it will pay for soldiers to ship the substandard vests home, but not for the vests themselves, unless the soldiers qualify under a law passed by Congress to reimburse troops for necessary equipment.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Contacted by CNN, Murray Neal, the CEO of Pinnacle Armor and the inventor of Dragon Skin, accused General Sorenson of what he called a bold-faced lie, insisting the Army has documentation showing his Dragon Skin vests exceed Army requirements. In fact, he says if you put the Dragon Skin vest side by side with the Army's and had a shootout, his would be the one without the bullet holes.
The Army says it's still waiting for 30 vests from the company for testing -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre.
Thank you very much.
Let's head up to New York. Jack Cafferty is standing by once again with "The Cafferty File" -- Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, Wolf.
People in 32 Wisconsin communities are going to vote next week on whether the U.S. should get out of Iraq. They'll actually be voting on a referendum calling for the orderly and rapid withdrawal of U.S. troops. One town, Evansville, Wisconsin, will also vote on a separate referendum that U.S. forces should stay in Iraq until "victory is clearly won."
The outcome of these votes won't carry any legal weight, but at least one expert says it might be tough for the politicians to ignore the results. And some local officials clearly think these votes can make a difference.
One of them told the newspaper "USA Today," "The people have to lead the leaders out of this war." A recent poll shows 54 percent of Americans think U.S. troops should be withdrawn now or within a year, and 60 percent say the war wasn't worth it.
So here's the question this hour: Is it a good idea for individual communities to vote on whether the U.S. should get out of Iraq?
E-mail your thoughts to caffertyfile@CNN.com or go to CNN.com/caffertyfile -- Mr. Blitzer.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Mr. Cafferty. Good question.
Coming up, the chilling 911 tapes of the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center. We're going to hear what happened minutes before the buildings collapsed.
Bill Clinton one-on-one with Larry King. What's his position on immigration? Does he side with the president?
And assassin's game, a killer new pastime that's raising eyebrows.
You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: They're so gripping, yet so difficult to listen to, recordings of 911 calls from inside the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001.
CNN's Mary Snow is joining us now with the tapes just released and the controversy behind them -- Mary. MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, at the core of that controversy, is releasing these tapes just resurrecting the pain of September 11th, or can they provide lessons learned for the future? The city released the tapes of 911 operators under a court order but edited out the victims' voices out of privacy concerns.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FIRE: You said you've got a hundred people where?
106th floor. You guys trapped in there?
SNOW (voice over): Another call at 9:02, just one minute before the second plane hit.
POLICE: Do what you think is best.
No, I cannot do that. We are getting millions -- millions of calls, sir.
SNOW: One after another, operators try to keep callers calm.
FIRE: All right. Just keep some windows open. If you can open up windows and just sit tight.
NORMAN SIEGEL, ATTORNEY FOR 9/11 FAMILIES: You know and we know that you can't open the windows at the World Trade Center.
SNOW: Norman Siegel represented nine families who joined "The New York Times" in forcing New York City to release all the tapes.
AL REGENHARD, FATHER OF 9/11 VICTIM: I think we can learn from our mistakes, the mistakes that were made. And the only thing that can come from this -- and I owe it to me son and all those that died -- that we do better in the future.
SNOW: One of the 28 callers the city identified was Chris Hanley, trapped on the 106th floor of the north tower. His family chose to share his final moments.
HANLEY: OK. Please hurry.
FIRE: All right. Just keep the windows open. If you can open up windows and just sit tight. It's going to be a while because there's a fire going on downstairs.
HANLEY: We can't open the windows unless we break them.
FIRE: OK. Just sit tight. Just sit tight. We're on the way.
HANLEY: All right. Please hurry.
JOSEPH HANLEY, FATHER OF 9/11 VICTIM: It's kind of painful to hear it again, to hear him, you know, alive like that. But I thought he distinguished himself very nicely under a great deal of pressure.
SNOW: Also on the recordings, examples of operators expressing helplessness to each other.
FIRE: It's an awful thing. It's an awful, awful, awful thing to call somebody and tell them you're going to die.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: And underscoring their desperation, one operator tells a trapped victim, "God is here."
Of the 130 calls released today, 28 voices were identified, only one survived. Those tapes were given directly to the families -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Mary Snow, thank you very much.
Let's check in with Zain Verjee. She's at the CNN Center with a quick look at some other stories making headlines around the world -- Zain.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, U.S. troops in Iraq are still falling, but the number of monthly casualties is diminishing. Despite continued insurgent attacks, monthly U.S. military deaths went down for the fifth straight -- straight month in March. The monthly toll peaked last October at 96, and for March it's 29.
In all, more than 2,300 U.S. servicemen and women have died since the war began.
At least 70 people dead, hundreds injured and villages devastated. That's the result of three strong earthquakes that rocked western Iran today. A provincial emergency official says 330 villages in the mountainous region was severely damaged.
Now, he doesn't expect the death toll to go much higher. The U.S. Geological Survey says strongest quake -- the strongest quake measured a magnitude 6.0. The U.S. has offered assistance.
French President Jacques Chirac has announced plans to sign his country's controversial youth labor contract, but he offered to soften it a little. In a televised address today, Chirac said that he wants a reduction in the probationary period. He also says that employers have to give reason for termination.
Chirac's statement came as hundreds of students and labor unions went on the march in the streets of Paris. Organizers renewed calls for strikes next Tuesday -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Zain, thank you very much.
Still to come here in THE SITUATION ROOM, a congresswoman potentially facing criminal charges. She's now speaking out. We'll tell you what she's saying.
And Bill Clinton, one-on-one with our own Larry King in THE SITUATION ROOM. He agrees with President Bush on at least one critical issue. We're going to tell you what it is, why they agree. Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Tonight, Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney is waiting for word on whether she'll be charged for apparently striking a Capitol Hill police officer. And the Georgia Democrat is linking the incident and the controversy surrounding it to race.
Let's bring in our Brian Todd. He's got more on what has happened today -- Brian.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, a police union official tells CNN he believes Capitol Hill police will recommend to the U.S. attorney that charges be filed against Congresswoman McKinney, possibly charges of assault. This stems from an incident earlier this week when police say McKinney walked around a security checkpoint and an officer did not recognize her.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (voice over): A police union official tells CNN a Capitol Hill police officer tapped Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney lightly on the arm at a checkpoint earlier this week seeking identification. And he says the congresswoman then turned around and struck the officer on the chest with her cell phone.
A short while ago, the Georgia Democrat gave a defiant response.
REP. CYNTHIA MCKINNEY (D), GEORGIA: This whole incident was instigated by the inappropriate touching and stopping of me, a female black congresswoman. I deeply regret that this incident occurred, and I am certain that after a full review of the facts, I will be exonerated.
TODD: Pending possible charges, Capitol Hill police will only say they're still investigating. McKinney's attorney says he'll do some digging himself.
JAMES MYART, MCKINNEY'S ATTORNEY: I'm going to seek a criminal investigation against the police officer who assaulted this congresswoman. And we further are reviewing the civil liabilities and responsibilities of the Capitol police, as well as this particular individual.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: Now, according to the "National Journal's Almanac of American Politics," McKinney had similar recognition issues at the White House in 1996 and 1998. The book quotes McKinney saying, "I am absolutely sick and tired of having to have my appearance at the White House validated by white people" -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Brian Todd, thank you very much.
Brian Todd reporting. Just ahead, immigration divide. Lou Dobbs and Univision's Jorge Ramos squaring off on the controversy. It's a debate you won't want to miss.
Plus, Bill Clinton one-on-one with Larry King. We have both in THE SITUATION ROOM.
All that coming up. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. I'm Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM.
More now on the immigration debate. Many undocumented workers here in the United states are turning to day labor to try to earn a living. And it turns out there are more of these kinds of workers than you might think.
CNN's Sumi Das is joining us now live from Los Angeles with more -- Sumi.
SUMI DAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Wolf.
Well, some call day laborers a national phenomenon. And if you live in a major city, Wolf, they may be as close as your street corner. Los Angeles has 26,000.
Efforts to provide them with a safer environment have led to the creation of day labor centers. Across the country, there are now 65 of them.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAS (voice over): On any given day, roughly 117,000 day laborers across the U.S. are looking for work on street corners, at home improvement stores and day labor centers. About three quarters of them are here illegally. That according to UCLA's Center for the Study of Urban Poverty.
Center director Abel Valenzuela says that doesn't tell the whole story.
ABEL VALENZUELA, UCLA: Day labor has become the poster child of illegal immigration in this country. They're a relatively small percentage of the immigrant labor force.
DAS: This day labor site is funded by the city of Los Angeles. And Valenzuela says it's an intelligent response to the demand for workers.
Employers we spoke with agree.
JESUS NAVARRO, HIRES DAY LABOR: The point here, you can come and hire them directly to them. You don't need any paperwork and make application.
DAS: Another employer says he doesn't ask for documents.
GUILLERMO BERT, HIRES DAY LABOR: I don't question their status. I mean, that's not my position. I mean, I -- they're here. You know, I come to the labor center and I hire some people. I'm not a federal agent.
DAS: This center offers classes in construction and English. It's staffed with a site manager and even a marketing coordinator.
Jose Luis Munoz acknowledges he's in the U.S. illegally.
JOSE LUIS MUNOZ, DAY LABORER (through translator): I need to earn money to support my family. I have to look for work. This center has helped us and that's why I'm here.
DAS: Opponents point out these centers don't require workers to prove their legal status. They say such centers provide businesses with an artificially cheap and mostly illegal labor supply.
TOM FITTON, JUDICIAL WATCH: One of the reasons immigrants are involved in work "Americans won't do" is because you've got this huge supply of illegal labor that has made it difficult for Americans to work for the wages at the levels illegal immigrants are willing to take.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We work hard, and that hard work benefits this country. That's what the government doesn't understand. We are not criminals. We are workers. We work the bad jobs, the dirty jobs and the jobs that pay poorly.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DAS: Wolf, undocumented day laborers may be very visible, but they make up only a small fraction of the estimated 11 million illegal immigrants here in the United States. According to UCLA, approximately 88,000 day laborers are here illegally. With that math, day laborers may only account for 1 percent of the illegal immigrant population -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Sumi Das in L.A. for us.
Good report. Thanks very much, Sumi, for that.
Immigration reform was a key topic in Cancun, Mexico, where President Bush wrapped up a summit today with the Mexican and Canadian leaders. Mr. Bush called for a comprehensive immigration bill from Congress that includes a guest worker program. He also called on Mexico to do its part to prevent illegal immigration.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And joining us now from Cancun, Jorge Ramos of Univision and Lou Dobbs of CNN.
Welcome, guys. The summit is now over. The president, Lou, seemed to make it clear he is adamant. He wants this guest worker program approved in any legislation that gets through the Congress. And I've got to tell you, in the last few days, it looks like the momentum on the Republican side is clearly moving in his direction here in Washington.
What do you think?
LOU DOBBS, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT": Well, I don't think there's anything surprising about that, Wolf. The Republican Party is under the sway of corporate America, corporate America wants cheap labor. And this administration seems compelled on any number of issues, to satisfy that demand. The only people not being represented in this debate are hard-working men and women and their families who are citizens of the United States, some 280 million. And the question will be what will be the response at the polls?
BLITZER: What do you think, Jorge? Go ahead and respond to that, because Lou makes a very serious suggestion, that if this guest worker program does become the law of the land, the American people will suffer.
JORGE RAMOS, UNIVISION: I don't think so. We've said it many, many times. I think immigrants are great for this country. Immigrants are taking the jobs that no American wants to take. They maintain -- they create jobs. They pay for the Social Security of a rapidly-aging population.
So something really has to be done. And I do sense this momentum towards the possibility of legalizing 12 million of illegal immigrants and also providing visas or work permits for those who are coming behind them.
And what's really, really important is that there might be not only economic consequences if Republicans do not do that. There could be political consequences, a political backlash.
I don't think Republicans want to be portrayed as being anti- immigrant and the Hispanic vote was very important in the 2000 election, significant in the 2004 election.
And I don't think the Republican Party, who obviously has a majority in both houses, would like to be portrayed as Pete Wilson was when he was governor of California and when proposition 187 was approved. So not only the economic consequences are there, but also the political backlash, the possibility of political backlash.
BLITZER: Let me ask Lou, politically is this good for the Republicans, if the president, John McCain, now it looks like the speaker, Dennis Hastert, they seem to be falling in line on this issue? There are others like Tom Tancredo, even the Senate majority leader, Bill Frist, who are still resisting. But is it good politically for the Republicans to go ahead and support the president's vision?
DOBBS: I think that the Republican Party is about to find out something and perhaps my friend, Jorge Ramos, as well -- that Hispanic does not equal illegal alien and illegal immigration does not equal Hispanic.
The fact is that Hispanic citizens of this country are the first -- the first to suffer. A Pew Hispanic Center study last year demonstrating that the two million illegal aliens in this country in this country took the jobs and wages of the last two million Hispanic entrants into the United States.
It is a very difficult issue. Hispanic citizens of the United States are not unlike every other race or ethnic group in this country. They are first Americans and they're concerned about border security. They are concerned about port security and they're concerned about fairness and equity in the immigration process and certainly about representation of their interests as members of our middle class, as working men and women and also, of course, the interests of those who want to be part of that middle class.
BLITZER: Jorge, you want to respond to that?
RAMOS: Yes, of course. I mean, I just saw the last Pew Hispanic Center poll and obviously Americans are divided on undocumented immigrants. But overall, Hispanics tend to favor some sort of legalization for those who are already in this country.
And the alternative, it's simply impossible, Wolf, because what are we going to do? Are we going to deport 12 million undocumented immigrants. The last estimate that I saw coming from the Senate is that it would spend -- it would cost about $240 billion to do that.
On the other hand, just imagine the video or the pictures of federal agents getting to the homes of Mexicans or Salvadorans or Hondurans in -- Chicago or Hialeah in Florida and taking by force, families with children in their hands and taking them to jails or camps and then deporting them to Mexico.
The potential for human rights violations is immense. So it's not only the cost, but also that the United States image in the world would suffer. So the alternative is impossible. So that's the reason why I think Republicans are getting in line with the president on this.
DOBBS: Two points, Wolf. One is Jorge left out Asian illegal aliens, he left out European illegal aliens and others. It is not -- even though it is the predominant issue -- that is a Hispanic issue in terms of illegal immigration -- it's not inclusive and exclusive. The fact is that the idea that somebody would be rounding people up -- I think American working men and women...
RAMOS: How are you going to take them back, Lou, how are you going to take them back?
DOBBS: Excuse me, Jorge, I did not interrupt you.
RAMOS: But that's the question. I mean, they're here, they're not going back. DOBBS: So I think the real question is the Sensenbrenner bill, which is characterized by the national media as sort of clacking along, like the herd that it is, calls it stern border security.
In point of fact, it's probably not as -- doesn't provide for as much border security as any of us would like. But the fact is that it does make one, in my opinion, great mistake. And that is creating a felony for a person who enters the United States illegally, rather than a felony for those who hire an illegal alien illegally.
That's when we'll know how serious this Congress is, is when they make it not a felony to enter the country, but rather a felony to hire an illegal alien.
BLITZER: Lou, I want you to listen, and Jorge listen to this also. While both of you have been in Cancun covering this U.S.- Mexican-Canadian summit, the mayor of New York, Michael Bloomberg, was speaking to our John King on the streets of New York and he seemed, Lou, to be talking to you and your supporters when he said this. Listen to what Bloomberg said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG (R), NEW YORK: It may very well be rewarding, law breaking. But let's get real. I mean, you know, we don't live in a perfect world. And we don't -- at least mayors don't have the luxury of pontificating without any consequences for what they say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: All right, Lou. You want to respond to the mayor?
DOBBS: Well, first, Mayor Bloomberg pontificates quite often and without serious repercussions, so I think he's being just a little darling and precious with that.
I think he's being too glib entirely with the issue. And the fact is he's not offering any solutions other than saying, "What the hell? Leave our borders insecure. Leave our ports insecure and the rest be damned."
Mayor Bloomberg may live in New York City and have to wrestle with consequences within that city. It's a great city with great people. But this is a broad nation and 280 million middle class Americans, working men and women in this country, Bloomberg is telling them to go to hell, not me. And other politicians just like him, think about it.
RAMOS: But let's be realistic, Lou.
DOBBS: The middle class of the United States is now the least represented. You have LULAC, you have La Raza, MALDEF, MEChA, the list goes on, representing what some estimates, 11 million, others, 20 million people. Who in the heck decided that 280 million Americans of all races, all creeds, ethnicities and beliefs should no longer deserve representation?
BLITZER: Let's let Jorge respond.
RAMOS: They are benefiting from the work of undocumented immigrants. They're benefiting from the work of undocumented immigrants. And let's be realistic. As long as we have these incredible disparity in salaries between the United States, in which you can 20 times as much as in Mexico and in Central America, they're going to keep on coming.
And it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to create new walls or to bring 20,000 or 30,000 new federal agents to the border because hunger is stronger than fear. So immigrants are going to try to come in anyway. The solution is to try to just make it easier for them to get a visa, Wolf, thank to sneak -- just last year 460 immigrants died at the border and that has to stop.
BLITZER: Jorge, at the news conference that the leaders of the summit had earlier today, something very interesting was revealed, I thought, by President Fox, Vicente Fox. He noted that along Mexico's southern border, they've taken steps to prevent Salvadorans and Guatemalans and others coming in illegally into Mexico. He said this, he said, "240,000 people -- people were detained and then they were sent back to Central America."
It sounds like he's doing along his southern border what he opposes the United States doing along its southern border.
RAMOS: And you're absolutely right. I think it's a double standard because they're asking from Central American countries what they are not willing to do when it comes to the relationship with the United States.
And I agree completely with you. I've spoken with many people from Central America and they say the worst part of the trip, their journey from Central America to United States is through Mexico.
On the other hand, President Fox has not been able to deliver the one million jobs that he promised when he was a candidate. And because of that, because he cannot deliver, because he overestimated his potential, therefore, 500,000 Mexicans go to the United States every single year and cross the border.
But this is not going to change in one decade or two decades. So we just have to be realistic and do something about it. The Senate has the possibility to do that.
BLITZER: All right, we're out of time, but, Lou, I'll give you the last word, go ahead.
DOBBS: Very simply, the hypocrisy, the distortion, the disinformation in this debate -- Washington has truly become the place where truth goes to die.
And it's straightforward. We are a nation without secure borders and ports. We are a nation allowing Vicente Fox to set our standards. As Jorge suggests, there is great poverty in Mexico and the illegal alien invasion will not end with this amnesty program. But what about the five billion people in the world who are poorer than those Mexican citizens who are living on subsistence levels? The truth is, not Vicente Fox is setting the policy, not the United States Congress nor this president. Corporate America is, and we are a poorer country as a result.
BLITZER: Lou Dobbs, Jorge Ramos, have a safe trip back. Thanks to both of you for joining us.
DOBBS: Good to be with you.
RAMOS: Thank you.
BLITZER: And up ahead here in THE SITUATION ROOM tonight, what's on former President Bill Clinton's mind? We'll ask the man who sat down with him for a serious conversation earlier today, our own Larry King. You're looking at a live picture of Larry. He's going to join us when we come back.
And later, the name of the game is kill or be killed. The players say it's all in fun, but not everyone is laughing. We'll tell you what's going on. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Tonight, the former president, Bill Clinton, diving right into the debate over illegal immigration. He tells our own Larry King the issue is important for this country and very complicated. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So the real dilemma is here, how can we avoid being foolishly xenophobic, trying to be cruel to hard-working people who are paying taxes and doing jobs other people wouldn't do in America, giving them a reasonable path to citizenship, without punishing people who wait in line and obey the law, and still trying to make sure that through technology and other means we do a better job to protect our borders from potential terrorists, from narcotics and other things that are real trouble?
I mean, it's -- in other words, it's complicated. But I know that the bill that's making its way through the Senate seems to me to be closer to what I think should be done. I have no problem in the world having more Border Patrol guards and stiffer border enforcement for security reasons. But I don't think it is practical or wise for us to try to denigrate or demonize a lot of the undocumented immigrants who came here, and are working hard, paying taxes and making a contribution, and sending the money back home to their folks.
LARRY KING, HOST, LARRY KING LIVE: So are you saying you generally support President Bush?
CLINTON: I think the president has a good idea in terms of wanting to give people a path to citizenship and have increased border enforcement. That's also the idea behind the bill sponsored by Senator McCain and Senator Kennedy in the Senate.
I think the House provisions have by and large been too punitive.
Now, the one thing I would say -- and the senators have emphasized -- I don't think this guest worker program that the president supports should be totally unlimited, either in -- in other words, I think if there's just no limit on it, then it's going to be very difficult for us to enforce the existing labor laws. That's the other thing I would say.
For people who are worried about whether this affects their jobs and their incomes, I think the president and perhaps the Congress ought to offer as a provision of this a more vigorous approach -- enforcement of the existing labor laws of America on minimum wage, minimum hours, working conditions and things like that. Because that would tend to minimize the number of people who would be brought in to abuse the existing system.
But I don't feel that immigration is a threat to America's future. I think it's the key to America's future.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: The full interview with Bill Clinton airs tonight on LARRY KING LIVE 9:00 p.m. Eastern, 6:00 on the West Coast. And Larry King is joining us now with a little bit more. I assume, Larry, you got into a whole range of issues with the former president.
KING: Yeah, we got into subjects like Iraq. We got into subjects like the Dubai protection of the ports, and his supposed disagreement with his wife. We even got into whether he -- whether or not he was interested in being commissioner of the NFL. We got into even discussion about the final four for Monday night and Saturday, how that might play out. Also discussed his health.
And, as usual with Bill Clinton, he's never dull. He's always vibrant. As you know well, Wolf, having talked to him many times, there's never been a politician quite like him. He can crystallize issues so well, as he just did there with immigration, and he can focus in on issues so well that I think even his staunchest critics would have to agree that he is a person -- he is a major, impressive figure.
BLITZER: He's unique, I think it's fair to say, all of us agree, I'm sure his critics as well as supporters.
What about his health? Because a lot of us have been worried. How is he doing? How did he look to you, Larry?
KING: Well, of course, we did it split screen. We were on -- he was in New York, and I'm in Los Angeles. He says he's in terrific shape. He gets his regular checkups. He's got another one coming in a couple of months, and he says he's doing very well. He looks trim, which is very important when you follow heart surgery, as I did. We're in that same club. Luckily enough, Wolf, you'll never be in it. But he seems to be, to me, doing quite well. He's in his late 50s. He looks excellent to me.
BLITZER: He looked pretty good. And he looks really good, a little slimmer, which is so important when you have heart disease, Larry, as you know and as everyone knows.
All right, Larry, you've piqued our curiosity. We're all going to be watching tonight. I especially want to hear if he wants to be the new commissioner of the NFL. You're not going to tell us now. You'll make us watch the program.
KING: Watch it. It's up at 6:00 Pacific, 9:00 Eastern. He also talks about his -- the incredible success of his global initiative.
BLITZER: We'll be watching, Larry. Thanks very much for joining us.
KING: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: LARRY KING LIVE airs 9:00 p.m. Eastern tonight.
Up ahead, an increasingly popular game. Some say it's a little too realistic. We're going to show you what the controversy over street wars is all about.
Plus, what can goldfish tell us about water quality? Our Internet reporters will show us. They have the situation online. Stay with us.
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BLITZER: Right now in Los Angeles, sinister assassins are roaming the streets, hunting down their prey. Their goal, kill or be killed. And while police are concerned, many others say it's all just fun and games. Our Chris Lawrence has details from Los Angeles. Chris?
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, it's an elaborate game of hide and seek played on the streets with water guns. But not everyone's a fan.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LAWRENCE (voice-over): Melissa Steton (ph) is one of 200 players running around L.A. playing Street Wars: Killer.
YUTAI LIAO, CO-FOUNDER, STREETWARS: KILLER: You have to go scour the city to find your target and wet him or her with a water gun.
LAWRENCE: Now, this man stays in the shadows and makes sure players follow the rules. The assassins have three weeks to hunt their targets. The twist being, another player is hunting them.
LIAO: Somewhere, someone is holding a sheet of paper with your photo on it. LAWRENCE: Get shot, you're out. The player with the most kills wins. Everyone starts with a file. Their target's name, number and photo.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Basically just Googled the addresses.
LAWRENCE: Melissa (ph) calls the offices where her targets work.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, I was wondering if you could tell me what time Maria (ph) is working until tonight.
LAWRENCE: And within hours, figures out when they get home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's just amazing what people will give out, information, for their co-workers.
LAWRENCE: But all the lurking around has turned some cops into critics.
SGT. LEE SANDS, LOS ANGELES POLICE: Maybe a game like this is better left behind a video screen and not out in the streets where people can get hurt.
LAWRENCE: Sergeant Lee Sands says it's no game if a player pretending to be an assassin gets mistaken for a real criminal.
BRADEN AFTERGOOD, PLAYER: Two days ago, I found myself being physically restrained by the LAPD because somebody reported a robbery in progress.
LAWRENCE: Braden Aftergood was cuffed and released while hunting one of his own targets. Now he's the hunted. Melissa (ph) shoots him with her water gun and records her first kill.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Wait, who are you?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LAWRENCE: The game's open to adults only. They play it in five cities, from L.A. to New York, where Mayor Mike Bloomberg called them crazy. One parents group says they're making fun of murder. But players say it's just harmless fun, like being in your own action movie -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Chris Lawrence in Los Angeles, thank you very much.
Can two goldfish help save the Los Angeles river? The experiment is playing out online. Let's bring in our Internet reporter, Jacki Schechner. Jacki?
JACKI SCHECHNER, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Wolf, you're looking at the goldfish cam from the "L.A. Times" Web site. And this is little Antonio and little Ed. They're part of an experiment by a reporter named Steve Hymon. He wanted to find out if the L.A. River water could sustain life. So he scooped up some water from the river and put it in an aquarium. And these little guys have been swimming around now for 25 days, 10 hours, 39 minutes and 44 seconds.
I want you to take a look at what the river looks like now. The reason he did the experiment is because there is a plan underway to revitalize the river. This is what they would like it to look like. I talked to councilman's Ed Reyes's office today, Wolf, and he tells me that this has been a wonderful publicity stunt for their cause.
And just in case you thought they were disposable pets, the aquarium, NOAH Aquarium tells me that goldfish, if well taken care of, Wolf, can live five-to-20 years.
BLITZER: Jacki, thank you very much.
Let's find out what's coming up on "PAULA ZAHN NOW." Paula's standing by in New York. Paula?
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Wolf, thanks so much. Up here in New York we've been going through the eight hours of audiotapes of the emergency calls from 9/11.
At the top of the hour, we're going to have extensive excerpts that no one has ever heard before. Amid the confusion, frustration and horror. How did the 911 operators cope? It is really amazing to listen to.
Also, the untold story of Pope John Paul's final hours, exactly what was happening inside the Vatican when we all looked at that shot where we see the dimly lighted room? We have extraordinary stories from the people who were very close to the pope and who happened to be at the pope's death bed. All that coming up, just about five minutes from now, Wolf.
BLITZER: Sounds excellent, Paula, thank you very much.
Still ahead, is it a good idea for individual communities to vote on whether the U.S. should get out of Iraq? Jack Cafferty standing by with your e-mail.
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BLITZER: Let's check in with Jack. Hi, Jack.
CAFFERTY: Hi, Wolf. Happy Friday, Wolf.
BLITZER: You, too.
CAFFERTY: People in 32 Wisconsin communities are going to vote next week on whether the U.S. should get out of Iraq. They'll actually be voting on a referendum that calls for the orderly and rapid withdrawal of U.S. troops. The question we're asking, is it a good idea for individual communities to vote on whether the U.S. should get out of Iraq?
Dan writes from Iowa: I'm 43 and don't see us getting out of Iraq in my lifetime. So let individual communities vote all they want. The fact is, we can't leave. Bush has built a terrorist state next to another and to leave, would mean doom for all of us.
Karen in Hampton, Cove, Alabama: I bet the insurgents in Iraq and al-Zawahiri are very excited that the milk heads in Wisconsin are wasting time voting on ways to demoralize the troops give the terrorists something to look forward to.
Aaron writes from Watertown, Wisconsin: As a resident of one of those towns that's going to be voting, I realize this thing won't carry any actual wait. In fact, my state and federal representatives, Joel Kleefisch and Tom Petri, have already blown the whole thing off.
Linda in El Dorado, Arkansas: I think it would be an excellent idea to put this on the voting ballot in every city and country in the country. It would be refreshing for the people to get to put in their own choices for a change, instead of having George Bush's unintelligent opinions stuffed down our throats.
And Graham in Santa Barbara, writes this rather testy little missive: I think polling communities on whether to pull out of Iraq's a good idea. However, I certainly don't want the opinion of Americans to be representatives by a few communities in Wisconsin.
That's nasty.
BLITZER: That's nasty. Jack, have a great weekend. We'll see you back here Monday. Jack's also hosting "IN THE MONEY" tomorrow, that airs 1:00 p.m. Eastern, replayed Sunday 3:00 p.m. Eastern. Jack, "IN THE MONEY." I'll be back Sunday on "LATE EDITION." Among my guests, the president of Mexico, Vicente Fox, and the Senate majority leader, Bill Frist. "LATE EDITION" airs 11:00 a.m. Sunday morning.
Let's head up to New York. Paula Zahn, standing by. Hi, Paula.
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