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The Situation Room
Jury Finds Zacarias Moussaoui Eligible for Death Penalty
Aired April 03, 2006 - 15:55 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tony, thank you very much. To our viewers welcome to THE SITUATION ROOM. Our viewers joining us in the United States and around the world on CNN International.
We're following breaking news in the life and death case of the confessed al Qaeda conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui. Jurors have been deliberating since last Wednesday. Just an hour ago they announced they reached a verdict on the question of whether Moussaoui should be eligible for the death penalty.
We have full coverage coming up over the next several moments. The next hour or so, at the top of the hour, we expect to get the verdict from this jury in Alexandria, Virginia.
Our justice correspondent, Kelli Arena, she is inside the courtroom right now awaiting the verdict. She is going to be joining us as soon as this verdict is read. Also standing by, the former U.S. attorney, Kendall Coffey, in our Miami bureau. CNN legal analyst, Jeff Toobin, he's in New York. Jeanne Meserve, our homeland security correspondent, is watching all of this as well.
Let's review for our viewers in the United States and around the world what we're about to hear, basically explain to our viewers how this is going to unfold.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: There are two parts to this trial. It is bifurcated. This is the first half. This will determine whether or not Moussaoui is eligible to receive the death penalty. Should remember he has already pled guilty to six counts of terrorism conspiracy. At the very least he is going to spend the rest of his life in prison. But prosecutors would like to see him get the death penalty.
They have argued that if he had told the government everything he knew about al Qaeda's plans to fly planes into buildings, the government then could have taken steps to avert the 9/11 hijackings. The defense has argued, no, Zacarias Moussaoui was a minor player. He was even regarded as cuckoo by some members of al Qaeda. He really did not have the kind of knowledge that would have tipped the federal government off.
They also have said that the federal government's incompetence would have meant that even if he had said what he knew the federal government wouldn't have put the pieces together. Now, of course, their case was put on its ear by Moussaoui himself. He went on the stand during the trial and he said, yes, he knew about the plan to fly planes into the World Trade Center. And he, in fact, was supposed to pilot a plane along with Richard Reid that was supposed to go into the White House.
He admitted that he had lied or said that he lied to cover up the plot in order to allow it to go forward. The trial has been marked by outbursts from Moussaoui and also by the very unusual behavior after government lawyer, Carla Martin, who very nearly led to the exclusion of all the aviation testimony that the government wanted to put on. In the end they were able to put on some but not as much as they wanted.
The jurors heard four weeks of testimony. They have deliberated for about 17 hours. Nine men, three women, we're waiting to hear what they do, Wolf.
BLITZER: Basically, this will determine whether or not he is eligible for the death sentence or he serves the rest of his life in prison without the possibility of parole. Those are really the only two options. He has already confessed he's confessed he's guilty. The only question now is whether he serves the rest of his life in jail or whether he is eligible for the death sentence.
And, Jeanne, even if they determine he's eligible for the death sentence it's not necessarily going to happen. They go into phase two of this trial.
MESERVE: That's right. The very same jury will hear more testimony. Amongst the things they will hear is statements from victims family. They may also hear the voice recordings from the flight that went down in Pennsylvania. Likely to be a very emotional phase of the trial. That's expected to take a couple of weeks and then they will again go into deliberations and at that point decide death penalty or no.
That is if they reach the eligibility threshold in their decision this afternoon.
BLITZER: Let's bring in Jeff Toobin, our senior legal analyst as we await the announcement. We're going to be hearing from our public information officer, Edward Adams, from the court in Alexandria, Virginia.
We have a live picture that is coming from Alexandria, showing the courthouse. Let me read to our viewers the questions, the four specific questions that we want to -- that the jurors are answering. And I'm going to put those questions up on the screen right now if we can do that.
Is Moussaoui 18 years or older? The answer clearly is yes. Did he intentionally lie to federal agents in August 2001? That was when he was apprehended? He was in prison. He was in jail at the time of 9/11. Did he lie with lethal intent? And did his lies directly result in at least one death on September 11th? If the answers are unanimous, yes to all of these questions, Jeff Toobin, he will then become eligible for the death sentence?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: That's right. And what this trial is really about was really about was the fourth question. What flows from, what happened as a result of Moussaoui's lies to the federal agents? There's really no doubt, he admitted that he lied to the agents and he was glad that 9/11 happened.
But the key issue in this case and the very difficult bar that the government set itself was to prove that because of Moussaoui's lies, the government did not uncover the full 9/11 plot and therefore, more than 3,000 people died.
It's really a question about causation. Did this lie cause all those deaths? And that's the very high burden that the government has had to struggle with in this case and that's really the only question that -- of those four, that's going to be important. Because the other three are clearly yes.
BLITZER: And the question specifically says it must be shown that it was a direct result of the defendant' s act. In other words, that it couldn't be indirect. It must be directly related to what he did or did not do in August when he was being questioned by federal authorities, that that resulted in the death of at least one individual on 9/11?
TOOBIN: That's right. And what is so peculiar, one of the many things that's so peculiar about this case, is that Moussaoui testified, is that he was happy that all these people died.
But the causation of whether he had anything to do with it is quite unclear. I mean this is a case where an FBI agent testified that his own colleagues in the FBI engaged in criminal negligence in the conduct of this investigation.
So the defense is saying, if there was criminal negligence here on the part of the FBI, how could they possibly have stopped this conspiracy if Moussaoui had told the truth? It's a pretty good argument by the defense. We'll see how the jury feels about it.
BLITZER: We're looking at this live picture of the courthouse in Alexandria, Virginia, a suburb of Washington, D.C. in Northern Virginia. Inside, right now, the jurors, we're told, are being assembled and the verdict is about to be announced.
We're going to bring that to you as it happens. Jeanne Meserve, I understand that these jurors basically asked one question over these past several days as they were reviewing what was going on.
They wanted to have a definition of a weapon of mass destruction, because question three says as to count for conspiracy, to use weapons of mass destruction -- do you unanimously find that the government has established beyond a reasonable doubt that Zacarias Moussaoui -- that at least one victim died on September 11th as a direct result of the defendant's act.
So they were asking for a definition of weapon of mass destruction. And I believe what they were told was that a plane flying into a building, that could be defined as a weapon of mass destruction. MESERVE: That's right. And that's a phrase actually that you hear quite often in connection now with 9/11 and with airplane security. They talk quite frequently about the use of airplanes as weapons of mass destruction.
The judge also indicated that they had a number of exhibits that they would be going through while they were in their deliberations. That's perhaps why it took them almost 17 hours to go through this.
We should say that they started with an immense jury pool here. About 500 people were summoned to this courthouse in Alexandria. They were put through their paces of filling out a very extensive jury selection form, which queried them about their views of al Qaeda, their views about the FBI, whether or not they'd been impacted by 9/11.
Of course this courthouse is in very close proximity to the Pentagon. Some of the people who were called, it was clear to me from looking at them, had connections to the military and therefore perhaps to the Pentagon. So it was an exhaustive process that they through to winnow it down to 17 who heard the trial. And then that was further winnowed down to the 12 making the decision today,
BLITZER: Jeff Toobin, if the nine men and three women determined that he is not eligible for the death sentence, this is all over. He then just goes to jail or is it not all over?
TOOBIN: Well as far as I can tell, it is all over. There has been some suggestion raised and frankly it seems like a very unlikely scenario to me, that if the verdict is in favor of his eligibility...
BLITZER: ... I'm going to interrupt you right now, Jeff, because it looks as if Edward Adams is coming out to read the verdict. Let's listen to hear what he says, the public information officer.
EDWARD ADAMS, PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER: Good afternoon, my name is Edward Adams. I'm the court's public information officer. In the case of United States versus Zacarias Moussaoui, the jury has reached a verdict.
As to count one, conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism transcending national boundaries, the jury was asked whether it unanimously finds that the government has established beyond a reasonable doubt the following four facts.
No. 1, the defendant was 18 years of age or older at the time of the offense. The jury answered yes. No. 2, the defendant intentionally participated in an act defined as lying to federal agents on August 16-to-17, 2001? The jury answered yes. No. 3, the defendant participated in the act contemplating that the life of a person would be taken or intending that lethal force would be used in connection with a person other than one of the participants in the offense? The jury answered yes. No. 4, at least one victim died on September 11, 2001, as a direct result of the defendant's act. The jury answered yes. As to count three, conspiracy to destroy aircraft, and count four, conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction, the same questions were asked. And the jury answered them the same way they did as to count one. By this verdict, the jury has found that death is a possible sentence in this case.
BLITZER: And there you have it, Edward Adams, the public information officer for the court in Alexandria, Virginia, announcing that Zacarias Moussaoui is now eligible for the death sentence.
That doesn't mean he's necessarily going to get it, but it does mean, Jeff Toobin, that they're going to phase two now. They are going to continue this trial, bring in other witnesses, and make a final determination presumably over the next few weeks, maybe longer, to determine whether or not he will be -- he will be eligible for the death sentence. He clearly is eligible as of phase one of this trial.
TOOBIN: That's right, Wolf. And for the government, phase one was much, much tougher than phase two will be. This is where the government had a lot of problems. They are not going to have a lot of problems, I suspect, on phase two because basically what phase two is, is a comparison of aggravating factors and mitigating factors.
And what that means in plain English is how bad was this crime? And the government is going to call apparently more than 40 witnesses to testify about just how horrible 9/11 was.
And according to the words of the statute, was it especially heinous, cruel and depraved? Did it show a reckless disregard for human life? I think anybody who -- it's going to be very hard to argue that 9/11 was not any of those things.
The defense will argue that in the mitigating factors that Moussaoui was -- is schizophrenic, he's not capable of participating in a crime like this.
But the causation was really the hard part for the government and it seems very likely that it will be a much easier burden for the government in this next phase of the trial.
BLITZER: And the key question, whether we have it on the screen, the key question, Jeff, did his lies directly result in at least one death on 9/11? The answer was -- on all of the counts, an absolute yes, unanimous among all 12 jurors.
TOOBIN: And that's what it took. And that's what the trial was almost entirely devoted to, the issue of did Moussaoui's lies cause the FBI to fail to catch the plotters? That's what this whole trial was about. s Frankly the government had a hard time in many points in the trial, but 12 jurors agreed. And now the jury will go back for what at least seems to me, a much easier question and a much more dire result likely for Moussaoui.
BLITZER: Jeanne Meserve, this was by no means simple for the prosecution. The federal prosecutors, especially, since they had that huge bungle, only within the past couple weeks, where a government lawyer was basically accused of coaching witnesses and the judge was furious, ready to throw out this whole case in effect, but the prosecution managed to rebound and get this unanimous verdict from the jurors, allowing them to go forward with a possible death sentence.
MESERVE: Yes, it really did look pretty grim for the prosecution just a couple of weeks ago. The lawyer's name was Carla Martin. She worked for the Transportation Security Administration. She was helping to coordinate some of the witnesses, who the government planned to put on the stand to talk about aviation security and some of the steps that the government would have taken, they claimed, if Moussaoui had told everything he knew about the plot.
But it turns out Carla Martin was doing more than coordinating the testimony. She had shared opening statement transcripts with some of these witnesses. She had sent e-mails to them in which she critiqued quite strenuously the prosecution's opening statements. In addition, she also had communicated that some of these witnesses did not want to talk to the defense, when in fact on the stand several of these potential witnesses said they would have been willing to do so.
The judge was outraged. She called this an egregious and blatant violation of her court order, which absolutely forbid this sort of coaching of witnesses. The defense asked that the death penalty be thrown out. The judge refused to do that. Initially ruled that absolutely no aviation testimony would be allowed.
She later revisited that decision and decided that there could be aviation testimony, and a witness was put on the stand that testified to some of those points. But people said it was nowhere near the case that the prosecution would have put on otherwise. But clearly it was not an insurmountable obstacle for the prosecution. They have won the day here -- Wolf.
TOOBIN: Wolf, if I can just add something. I don't think there's much doubt that the most relieved person in America right now is Carla Martin because I mean imagine having it on your conscious that a case of this magnitude might have fallen apart because of your misconduct. That's no longer a possibility.
She is off the hook and regardless of what happens to the rest of the case I think it's clear that Carla Martin will be relieved that she wasn't the cause of the government losing this part of the case.
BLITZER: She may be off the hook in terms of the big picture but in terms of possible disciplinary action against her for some of her behavior, she probably won't be off the hook.
MESERVE: That's right.
TOOBIN: That's right. She does face even possible contempt of court charges, possibly even criminal charges, but, you know, imagine having it on your conscience that a crime of this magnitude might go unpunished because of your misconduct. I think that's the likely worst sanction she could face and -- well, who knows. Criminal contempt is pretty bad, too.
BLITZER: That could be a career-ender to put it mildly.
TOOBIN: That could certainly be absolutely right.
BLITZER: Jeff, let's talk about Zacarias Moussaoui because as brilliant as the prosecuting team may have been, they got an enormous assist from none other than this man himself who rejected all the advice of his own defense attorneys and went on the stand and testified and boasted, absolutely true I did all of this.
TOOBIN: By far the most damaging piece of evidence in this case was not anything that the government put on, it was Moussaoui's own words. His lawyers, his court-appointed lawyers whom he has feuded with and denounced and criticized, begged him not to testify. They said, please don't testify. Please just let us handle this. And their advice went unheeded.
And Moussaoui apparently true to his convictions of being a proud al Qaeda terrorist said, look, I'm going to tell them I was involved in a conspiracy. He did not say he was involved in the 9/11 conspiracy. He said he was planning on using a different airplane to attack the United States. And he was working, he said, with the shoe bomber Richard Reid.
You know, whether any of that is true remains somewhat mysterious, frankly. But his testimony was by far the worst thing for him in the case but it was his choice. And the jury apparently believed that he was telling the truth that he wasn't insane, that he wasn't deluded, that he wasn't schizophrenic, that he was telling the truth, and that's what sunk him in this case.
BLITZER: And some have suggested that he was in effect committing suicide by that testimony, knowing that he would be eligible if the jurors believed him in the death sentence.
TOOBIN: Well, that's certainly a possibility. Because the -- his execution became far more likely as a result of his testimony. Now, what his thought process was, whether he wants to be -- whether he really wants to die, that is far beyond what I know. But certainly it's plausible that the testimony was a form of suicide.
BLITZER: All right, guys, stand by.
Carrie Lemack is joining us on the phone now from Boston. Her mother died aboard American Airlines flight 11 on 9/11. You know, your mother, Judy, Carrie, give us your reaction to this unanimous decision by the jurors in Alexandria, Virginia, that Zacarias Moussaoui is now eligible for the death sentence?
CARRIE LEMACK, DAUGHTER OF 9/11 VICTIM (on phone): I think disappointment is probably the best word to describe the feeling here. I'm here with many other family members from the Boston area. And of all of us only one was happy with the verdict today.
BLITZER: Why are you disappointed? The normal reaction would be you want this guy dead if in fact he participated in this conspiracy?
LEMACK: Well, I don't know if it's normal to want someone to die. I think that's actually abnormal and in this case for us we don't want to make him a martyr. This is somebody who said he hates America. He wants to die killing Americans, and the last thing that a lot of us want to see happen is to allow us to die with the name martyr by his side.
I think that we feel that he should rot in jail without a platform to spout his anti-American sentiments and without having the notoriety that he's now gaining. You're spending all this time talking about a man who we were told was an al Qaeda want-to-be.
BLITZER: So, is it your position that he should not get the death sentence because of the facts in this case? Or are you in principle opposed, Carrie, to the death sentence?
LEMACK: It's from the facts in the case. From everything we saw the prosecution did not prove that he had anything to do with my mother's murder. More that he wished that he had to do something with it. You know, we were saying earlier -- you were saying earlier that Moussaoui was his own worst witness.
And it sounds to me like he's someone who likes the attention he's getting. His reaction today was almost nothing when they said that he's going to be eligible for the death penalty, and I think what is really sad here is we are spending all this time talking about someone, who as we said, he is a want to be.
He wanted to do these things, and al Qaeda didn't want him. He wasn't even good enough for them, if you can imagine it. And yet we're spending all our time and energy and taxpayer dollars on this man. If he's found guilty for the death penalty in the next stage there's going to be appeal after appeal. It's going to be millions of dollars.
And for a lot of us it's not how we want to spend our energy focusing on Zacarias Moussaoui. I would rather our government spends their time finding Osama bin Laden, for example.
BLITZER: There's Carrie Lemack, co-founder of Families of September 11. She lost her mother on American Airlines flight 11.
Carrie, thank you very much for giving us your reaction.
I want to go to our Kelli Arena, our justice correspondent. She is now outside the courthouse in Alexandria, Virginia.
Kelli, you were inside. And I want to debrief you on what happened, walk us through the process, give us a sense of what it was like inside that courtroom as the jurors decision was being made known.
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I tell you, Wolf, usually people are very chatty up until the time that they are told to be quiet, but this was a very quiet and tense courtroom. The prosecution pacing back and forth, same for defense attorneys.
We did hear Moussaoui yelling outside in the hall before he was allowed to come in. We could not discern what he was saying. The jury came in, very poker-faced. They have had a poker face on through this whole trial, Wolf. They have not let on what they were thinking or feeling.
Moussaoui came into the room. He was flanked by five federal marshals. The verdict was read, as you heard, it was a unanimous yes on all questions for all three death-penalty eligible counts. All during this process, Wolf, Moussaoui just sat there. He sat there looking straight ahead mumbling something to himself. We don't know if he was praying, if he was reciting something. We have no idea.
But just completely looking forward sort of in a daze while the jury sort of looked -- glanced a little bit at him, went back to business. We were told by the judge that things would get going again on Thursday and then we were pretty much dismissed at that point.
At that point, Moussaoui got up and screamed at the courtroom, you'll never get my blood, God curse you all. It has become standard practice for him, as you know, Wolf, to scream as he leaves that courtroom. He did it again today. He was escorted out. That was it. Very short, we were in there -- we started at 4:00. It was 15 minutes, over and done with.
There were family members who are also sitting in the courtroom. There were six of them right behind me. They just sort of breathed a sigh of relief. They had rushed to get to the courtroom to hear the verdict for themselves. I heard some of them talking saying they were trying to cell phone family members as they were on their way over to let them know that the jury had reached a verdict. So there you go.
BLITZER: All right. Kelli, stand by for a moment. Some of those family members are now speaking to reporters outside the courthouse. Let's listen to them.
ABRAHAM SCOTT, WIDOWER OF 9/11 VICTIM: ...negative comments. I still feel sorry for him. I am not sorry enough to drop the decision of him being given the death penalty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why do you feel sorry for him?
SCOTT: I don't know whether this is appropriate or not. To describe him, as well as those who perpetrate the act of terrorism, I describe them like a dog with rabies, one that cannot be cured, and the only cure is to put him or her to their death.
QUESTION: The jurors have now decided that he is eligible for the death penalty. Do you think there's any question that he deserves it.
SCOTT: No question whatsoever. And I'm hoping that they will bring a family member, not necessarily have to be me, before the court and let them have their case in terms of how they lost the loved one and how it feels to lose a loved one and what kind of loved one that they lost. And I'm sure it will be, just like similar to my wife, she was a very loving and caring individual. She was just not a number within this country. She was a great citizen of this United States.
QUESTION: What was her name, sir?
SCOTT: Janice Marie Scott.
QUESTION: From the Pentagon.
SCOTT: Yes. J-a-n-i-c-e Marie Scott. We were married for -- would have been married 24 years on the 27th of December, 2001.
We have two daughters, Crystal and Angel, who miss her very much.
QUESTION: The jury only found him eligible today. Do you think there's any question about whether he will actually get the death penalty?
SCOTT: From my personal viewpoint I don't see why they would do otherwise, because they have proven their case during the first phase and I do believe that the testimony of the family members and other witnesses will reinforce that decision.
QUESTION: You say you are prepared to testify, but you haven't been asked yet. Do you know what you will say if you are asked?
SCOTT: If I'm asked to testify I know that I will say but not necessarily. I do not necessarily have to testify. Other family members can testify and drive the point across just as hard as I can.
QUESTION: Just to clarify, have you talked about -- they said you might be asked to testify and called if you're ready?
SCOTT: No, they haven't. I think the decision has already been made in terms of who all will be testifying. I will be there to support whomever testifies to provide that reinforcement to the jury as well as to the people of this country and to the terrorists around the world.
QUESTION: If you were going to testify, what would you say?
SCOTT: What would I say?
I would say, number one, that I don't think that Zacarias Moussaoui is totally to blame, even though I do believe that he deserved the death penalty. I also equally blame the government for not acting on certain indicators that could have prevented 9/11 from happening. I would also say that I love my wife truly, and I know that whatever happens to him will not bring her back, but I do believe that the death of Moussaoui will bring comfort to those family as well as individuals across the world and this country that have been impacted adversely with the tragedy on September 11, 2001.
BLITZER: Abraham Scott, whose wife, Janice Marie Scott, was killed on 9/11 at the Pentagon, speaking out in the aftermath of this decision, a unanimous decision by these 12 men and women in this jury in Alexandria, Virginia, that Zacarias Moussaoui is eligible indeed for the death sentence for his role in 9/11, even though he was in jail at the time of 9/11.
The jurors decided that information he had could have saved lives, directly resulted in the death of at least one individual and perhaps more on 9/11.
Kelli Arena is our justice correspondent. She has been covering the trial from day one. She is outside the courthouse in Alexandria right now. Most of those family members of victims who died on 9/11 who were there, I assume most of them were really anxious to see the death penalty prevail?
ARENA: You know, Wolf, it depends really on who you talk to. That's been very mixed. It really depends a lot on what people's personal stand is on the death penalty in general. For sure I think that the overwhelming response is that this did serve some justice for the family members that were lost on that day.
As a matter of fact, Wolf, I'm joined now by Rosemary Dillard. Her husband, Eddie, was killed on flight 77. Were you looking for the death penalty, is that what you wanted to see?
ROSEMARY DILLARD, WIDOW OF 9/11 VICTIM: That's what I wanted to see.
I especially want to take time to say thank you to David Novak. His impassionate closing at the hearing was everything, I mean he covered every point that the judge had given them. I mean, he did such a wonderful job. I think every family member is very proud of him and very proud of what the FBI, the job that they did.
ARENA: Will you be here during the next phase of the trial.
DILLARD: Yes I will. I want to be here. I want to support the FBI. I think they are working hard. I think we still have the Martin issue that will have to be cleaned up. But just to be here, yes, I'll be here. And the idea of when Moussaoui left that courtroom, when he said you will not get my blood and, oh I can't remember the other and he spouted out something.
ARENA: May God curse you all.
DILLARD: And God curse you all. It was unbelievable.
ARENA: Wolf?
BLITZER: Kelli, thank you very much. And if there are some other family members of victims of 9/11 that come your way, let us know. We want to hear from them on this day. Kelli, thank you very much.
Just to recap for our viewers, Zacarias Moussaoui, eligible for the death sentence as a result of this unanimous decision by a jury in Alexandria, Virginia. Jack Cafferty has been watching all of this unfold. What do you make of this, Jack? JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Well, we're curious, I guess, what the viewers think. Seems to me that we're spending an inordinate amount of time and money with the criminal justice system grinding this guy through the system.
I suppose the debate is over whether or not he becomes a martyr or whether the taxpayers of the United States should support this subhuman cretin sitting in some prison cell with the TV set and three squares a day and a copy of the Koran. Why should we do that? Who cares if he becomes a martyr? Let's move on. Execute the guy and go on to the next thing.
Why we're having this great debate about it is a bit of a mystery to me. But what do I know? The question that we're asking the viewers is whether or not this guy ought to be executed or spend the rest of his life in prison. You can send us your thoughts. At least it's only two options.
There's no chance he's going to be out walking around anywhere any time soon. That's good. But, you know, let's get over it and get on to the next thing. Why should we support this man? He's a fairly young guy. Probably live another 20 or 30 years in some prison watching TV. No need for that.
BLITZER: He's 37 years old, Jack.
CAFFERTY: So if he meets the actuarial tables he's looking at 45 years on the taxpayers doll? Why should we support this guy?
BLITZER: Let's hear what our viewers think as well. We have gotten some family members reactions some say kill him and others say let him spend the rest of his life in jail. Jack, thank you very much. We're going to continue to watch this decision. The fall-out from the Moussaoui verdict. Much more coming up here in THE SITUATION ROOM for our viewers in the United States and around the world.
We're also getting new pictures in of Jill Carroll right now. The report who was freed in recent days from captivity in Iraq. We're going to show you what is going on on that front. We're also following new developments at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware, where a massive military cargo plane crashed earlier today. We're going to go there live. Our Brian Todd is on the scene. Lots of news in THE SITUATION ROOM today. Stay with us. We'll be right back.
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BLITZER: Breaking news out of Alexandria, Virginia, just outside of Washington, DC. A jury has ruled that Zacarias Moussaoui is in fact eligible for the death sentence. Ruled it unanimously. Phase two of this trial now goes forward to determine whether he spends the rest of his life in jail without the possibility of parole or whether he is eligible for execution, phase one has determined he is eligible for execution.
Our justice correspondent Kelli Arena has been inside the courtroom watching this trial unfold. Up date our viewers who are just tuning in, Kelli, on exactly what happened over the past half hour.
ARENA: Well, Moussaoui was found eligible for the death penalty on all three counts. Each of those parts of the counts were read. The answer was "yes" meaning that they believed that the prosecution proved its point on all four of those factors and Moussaoui is headed for phase two of this trial which means that this same jury will decide whether or not gets sentenced to death or gets life in prison. Moussaoui sat there looking straight ahead, almost as if in a trance, mumbling to himself. When left the courtroom he said you will never get my blood. God curse you all.
Wolf, this is important for the family members who were here today and watching at remote locations as several have said finally their statements also be heard. The impact of those attacks on them and we do know at least 40 witnesses have been prepped by the government. We don't know if we'll hear from all 40 of them but who will appear in court and be able to tell the jury how it felt that day. What they've lost as a result of those attacks.
BLITZER: When does phase two start, Kelli?
ARENA: On Thursday. We'll be there in the morning. The judge gave just a two-day rest then we're back in business. And she has really run a pretty tight ship, Wolf. She wants to get this over and done with as quickly as possible so as not to be too much of a burden on this jury.
BLITZER: The same jury that made this decision will make the second decision?
ARENA: That's right. They have been here for several weeks and they are looking like they have at least another month to go.
BLITZER: Kelli, thank you very much. Kelli was inside the courtroom when the verdict was announced. Kendall Coffey is a former U.S. attorney. He is joining us from our Miami studio. Were you surprised, Kendall, by this unanimous decision that he is eligible for the death sentence?
KENDALL COFFEY, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: No, I wasn't. Moussaoui was doing everything he could to sign his own death wish and basically took a case where the government had all kinds of problems. We recall the issues with the transportation attorney who had inadvertently or not caused various witnesses to be coached. All the problems the government had. Then just when it looked like the government might not be able to prove its case Moussaoui took the stand himself, absolutely destroying any hopes he had of avoiding this verdict. In effect a wannabe suicide bomber who provided suicide testimony.
BLITZER: What options will there be for him if in fact phase two agrees with phase one that he's eligible for the death sentence? What happens after that as far as appeals are concerned?
COFFEY: Well, he's going to have an automatic right of an appeal to the federal appeals court to the Virginia area which is the Richmond court in the Fourth Circuit. And in any scenario there are enough things that take enough time that his perpetration of his death wish isn't going to happen overnight.
For example in the McVeigh case from the time of the jury death verdict to the execution took about four years. That could be something of the timeline we have here. But the most amazing thing is the way this guy just did everything he could to put himself and head himself toward death row. It's remarkable thing. We may never understand his motivations, Wolf. Was it in some fashion just to get himself killed? Or was he trying in some perverse way to write himself into the pages of history over the 9/11 atrocities? A lot of senior al Qaeda leaders said he didn't have anything to do with anything. It was Moussaoui himself who desperately tried to put himself into some significant role in that atrocious plot and ultimately the jury found he had enough culpability to be death eligible.
BLITZER: And they thought he was credible enough they believed him, in effect, when he said, yes, I was responsible for some of these deaths, at least one death on 9/11 by failing to tell the truth to federal investigators. But it's interesting that his defense attorneys as court appointed defense attorneys are going to point to precisely that in arguing this man is unstable. He is schizophrenic, he is a product of racism, his ancestry, his Moroccan ancestry, even though he's a French citizen. There's a lot of baggage that he brings and you shouldn't necessarily believe what he says. That's the case they are going to try to make to this jury.
COFFEY: Absolutely. They are going to try to portray him as impaired, as delusional, as a desperate wannabe who really had nothing of consequence with respect to anything significant. You also, though, have to look at all of the potential factors the government is going to bring in terms of turning death eligible, which he is right now, into death certainty. And of course, as Kelli was describing, victim impact testimony, dozens of people talking about the horrible consequences, the devastating tragedy in their lives when loved ones were killed in such a cruel way.
That kind of testimony is going to overwhelm anything the defense might try to do to save the life of Moussaoui.
BLITZER: Kendall Coffey, a former U.S. attorney. Excellent legal analyst helping us understand this case. Kendall, thank you very much for that.
We're going to continue to watch the fall-out from the verdict in the case of Zacarias Moussaoui. Also, other news we're following including politics. Are more heads about to roll over at the White House? Should they? Paul Begala and Torie Clarke standing by in our "Strategy Session."
And Democratic congresswoman Cynthia McKinney of Georgia, did she assault a capitol police officer? She's going to join us live here in THE SITUATION ROOM. We'll hear her side of the story. Lots of news happening in THE SITUATION ROOM. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: Breaking news here in Washington, Zacarias Moussaoui, a decision reached by a jury in Alexandria, Virginia. Right outside Washington, DC. He is in fact eligible for the death sentence. As you know he pleaded guilty to conspiracy involving 9/11. He's the only individual actually being tried in connection with 9/11. A French citizen of Moroccan ancestry, 37 years old. He pleaded guilty. There were two questions open before the jury. Does he serve the rest of his life in prison without the possibility of parole or is he eligible for the death sentence?
The jurors unanimously reached the decision he should be eligible for the death sentence. Now phase two of this trial begins in which they will determine, these 12 men and women, the same 12 men and women, nine men, three women, whether or not he will in fact get the death sentence.
We're getting reaction from all sorts of people including family members of the victims of 9/11. Much more coverage of this coming up here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
but there's other news we're following as well. Let's bring you some of that.
The battle lines have been drawn now the skirmishing actually started. A sharply divided U.S. Senate today began debating the hot button issue of immigration reform. At the heart of the matter what to do with the nation's approximately 12 million illegal immigrants. We have information just coming in which shows just how divided the American people are right now.
In a new CNN poll conducted by Opinion Research Corporation, 14 percent say illegal immigration will be the single most important issue affecting their vote this year, 43 percent call it very important, 31 percent call it somewhat important. Just nine percent say it's not important.
Congress is weighing proposals meanwhile to build fences along the Mexican border with the United States and toughen criminal penalties for illegal immigrants and those who hire or help them. Forty seven percent of this new CNN poll favor legislation with these proposals, 44 percent oppose it. But asked you how much sympathy they have for illegal immigrants 24 percent say they are very sympathetic, 46 percent say they are somewhat sympathetic. On the other hand 12 percent are somewhat unsympathetic, 14 percent in this new CNN poll say they are very unsympathetic.
As the debate heats up on Capitol Hill let's turn to our congressional correspondent Dana Bash. She is watching what is happening on the floor right now. What is happening, Dana?
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Wolf. Well, basically what is going on today is that the Republican leadership specifically is trying to figure out how to make sure that the deep divisions within their party over immigration doesn't end up in total deadlock when it comes to legislation on immigration and to that end we understand that the Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist went to the White House this afternoon with a couple other Republican senators. Senator John Cornyn of Texas and also senator Jon Kyle of Arizona. They met, there you see Senator John Cornyn on the floor right now.
They met with Karl Rove, the president's deputy chief of staff and the White House liaison to Congress Candy Wolfe (ph). Now sources familiar with that discussion say it was essentially a strategy session. What they are trying to figure out is how to make sure the divisions especially when it comes to a so-called guest worker program don't just end everything right here in the Senate.
And what they did talk about in general terms was something that Senator Bill Frist actually floated first on your show yesterday, Wolf, on LATE EDITION. Something actually that a couple of other republican senators, Senator Chuck Hagel and Senator Pete Domenici have been talking about behind the scenes. And that in the most vague terms which is what it is right now to separate out the whole idea of illegal immigrants by the years that they have been here. Perhaps make what could be possible for them in terms of staying legally here different if they had been here for five years or 10 years or more. Let's listen in to Bill Frist from yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BILL FRIST, (R) MAJORITY LEADER: We are going to have to compromise and recognize the 12 million people is not a monolithic group, it's not a uniform group, some have been here for 10 years, and they may have a road to a green card, but some of those 12 million people here, 40 percent have been here for less than five years need to be dealt in a different way.
BLITZER: So you would kick them out?
FRIST: I think we have to work with that. That would be the debate on the floor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now, Senator Ted Kennedy, the Democrat from Massachusetts, is one of the people who is this main sponsor of what they are talking about in terms of a guest worker program. He went to the /senate floor and blasted Senator Bill Frist earlier today because he and others say that they are simply -- that the idea of their bill is simply being mischaracterized called amnesty when it's not.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY, (D) MA: And he said that our plan allows undocumented immigrants to jump to the front of the line when our bill says plainly in black and white that they must wait in the back. We should conduct this debate based on fact not fiction. Thoughtful policy and not bumper sticker solutions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now what you have now here, Wolf, is a race to 60 votes which is often what you see in the Senate, trying to find on both sides a way to figure out how they can get this issue off the Senate floor. You saw Senator Kennedy there. He and senator John McCain whom he is working with very closely. They still say they think they can get 60 votes. On the other hand you have Senate majority leader Bill Frist who simply says doesn't think it's possible. So that's what they are talking about behind the scenes. Republicans are going to have a special meeting tomorrow morning to figure out once again where the Republicans in the Senate are, if they can come over -- overcome major divide over this issue and I can tell you, Wolf, there is also discussion about whether or not this actually can get done this week. A lot of discussion about whether or not this is simply moving too fast. Whether they have to wait until after the two-week recess which starts on Monday.
BLITZER: Giving the arcane rules you need 60 votes to break a filibuster. Almost anything important in the Senate needs 60 votes because any member can filibuster, to break a filibuster you need 60 out of 100 votes.
Dana, thank you very much.
In Cincinnati President Bush threw out the first pitch today as the new baseball season begins but it's also the season for a White House shake-up. That's what we're hearing. Our White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux is joining us now from Cincinnati. Suzanne?
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, of course the president is looking for heavy hitters since Josh Bolten will be taking over as chief of staff. There are a lot of discussion from sources inside, outside the White House as well as Republican strategist who talk about what his priorities are, Josh Bolten, looking at three areas, one White House communications, legislative affairs and of course treasury. White House communications a lot of discussions over strategy as well as the message from the podium, that of course would impact most greatly White House press secretary Scott McClellan. Whether or not he would be taking on a different role and perhaps someone in his place.
Those, of course, discussions, sources say they are taking place. Other sources I talked to say that they feel his job is very much secure. He's very close to the president. And that this is a speculation.
Of course, legislative affairs, they are looking for an elder statesman type of person to fill that role to reach out to Republicans in Congress, some of the numbers -- or the names rather on the short list including former Representative Bill Paxon (ph) of New York as well as former Senator Phil Graham and then finally when it comes to the treasury secretary, of course, the White House again as recently as today expressing a great deal of confidence in Treasury Secretary John Snow at the same time sources inside and outside the administration saying that the president is looking for what they call an alternative replacement. As recently as a couple of weeks ago extending that offer to the CEO of Time Warner, Dick Parsons who sources say turned it down.
Wolf?
BLITZER: That's our parent company, Time Warner. Suzanne, thank you very much.
Up next, is the White House facing a major shake-up? We have got word of possible changes afoot. We just heard from Suzanne Malveaux. We'll bring the subject up in the "Strategy Session." Will it make a difference?
And will charges be filed against Democratic Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney of Georgia for allegedly assaulting a police officer on Capitol Hill? The congresswoman standing by to join us live right here in THE SITUATION ROOM. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: There's a new development in the case of Democratic Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney. Let's bring in Betty Nguyen at the CNN Center in Atlanta with details. Betty?
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Wolf, we're learning these developments. According to the Associated Press U.S. Capitol Police just today asked a federal prosecutor to approve an arrest warrant in this case for Representative Cynthia McKinney. This stems from that scuffle on March 29 where she was headed into a House building. She wasn't wearing her lapel pin which designates the fact she was a congressman and the officer there didn't recognize her so there was a scuffle that occurred after that.
Well, the assistant U.S. attorney Channing Phillips is looking into this. He will decline to say so far what the charges possibly could be in this case or when an arrest warrant if it is going to be issued when that could be issued. So right now it appears that the Capitol Police have asked for a federal prosecutor to approve an arrest warrant for Representative Cynthia McKinney. Again that stems from that scuffle that occurred on March 29. That's the latest right now, Wolf. We'll stay on top of it for you.
BLITZER: All right, Betty, thank you very much. Betty Nguyen reporting. And this note to our viewers. Cynthia McKinney, the congresswoman in question, she'll be joining us live here in THE SITUATION ROOM. That's coming up. She'll be joining us with two of her attorneys. We'll get her side of the story. That's coming up in THE SITUATION ROOM.
In today's "Strategy Session," more word of possible changes over at the White House. Does the bush administration need more of the staff shake-up to jump start its policies? Joining us now are CNN political analysts, Democratic strategist Paul Begala and former Pentagon spokeswoman Torie Clarke.
PAUL BEGALA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: We'll be appearing with our attorneys, too.
TORIE CLARKE, FORMER PENTAGON SPOKESWOMAN: We're representing each other. BLITZER: We hope you don't need attorneys, either one of you ...
CLARKE: I'm sticking around for that interview, though.
BLITZER: Let's talk a little about the shake-up at the White House. We know there's a new chief of staff coming in and we're hearing there are going to be some more changes. What do you think? Does this make a difference?
BEGALA: No. The president has a reality problem. Not a perception problem. He has a credibility not a communication problem. And the reporting I have seen on CNN which I believe to be reliable is someone is throwing out Scott McClellan's name.
BLITZER: The press secretary.
BEGALA: He's the press secretary to the president. And he's been hammered. And he has no credibility. But he has no credibility because he has said what he was told to say. He said that Iraq was an imminent threat before the war. He didn't make that up. Someone told him. Presumably the president or one of the officials.
He said that there was no -- Karl Rove and Scooter Libby had nothing to do with the leaking of that CIA agent's name. That turned out to be false. He didn't make that up. So I hate seeing Scott scapegoating. Personal note, his mom is kind of a friend of mine. His grandfather was one of the professors in law school. He is not a bad guy but he is toast because of what the president has failed to do. So I don't like scapegoating poor little Scott McClellan.
BLITZER: Torie what do you think of the strategy of having changes now at the White House?
CLARKE: I don't believe it's change for change's sake. But it's not just about the people. I think it does have something to do with process and it does have something to do with communications. The reality is, the reality is some very good things are happening on the economic front. But for some reason the administration doesn't get credit for it.
BLITZER: Let me show the viewers our numbers. I want to highlight those in our CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup Poll that came out last month. We asked how are the economic conditions today? Fifty nine percent of the American public thought they were good, 41 percent thought they were poor. But look at this, Torie, in the same poll, which party would do a better job dealing with the economy, 53 percent said Democrats, 38 percent said Republicans.
CLARKE: There's a disconnect there. And when you're trying to figure out the disconnect it can't be about one person and it's not. I think one of the things I'm looking forward to going forward from the White House not just a change in people but a change in process. As they go forward the information environment is much tougher than it was even four or five years ago. This information rattles around there with tremendous volume and velocity. Everybody needs to be a communicator, not just the president any more but every member of the Cabinet. Everyone up and down the line has got to be up there telling the story, engaging with the American people. Engaging with the media.
So what I'm looking for is not a change in personnel but a change in posture, and see a very forward leaning and very aggressive approach on the communication front.
BLITZER: It's not just the people who are making the statement, it's the substance of the policy that a lot of critics say has to be changed.
BEGALA: Right. The president's first treasury secretary, Paul O'Neill, had the temerity, I think the guts to stand up and say look the deficits are getting too big, maybe we don't need these tax cuts. To his credit he did it loyally to the president and to the vice president. He didn't come to the media. But for expressing the independent judgment he was essentially canned. Now we have John Snow in there who never has an independent thought of the president. Now they are surprised that he looks weak. He's weak because he is weak. That's why they picked him for the job.
I'm told that several strong people including apparently the CEO of this monstrous conglomerate for whom we work have turned down the job. Why don't good strong people don't want to work for George W. Bush. Why have seven people reportedly turned done the job for FEMA? Why has now Mr. Parsons of Time Warner turned down the treasury job? It could be because they know the president doesn't want strong people around him.
BLITZER: What do you think?
CLARKE: Well, you don't even know if those offers have been made, accepted, rejected, et cetera, again going back to the substance, when you talk about changing policies, do you want to change the policies of unemployment at record lows? Do you want to change the policies that got the average wage up? Which policies do you want to change? You don't want to change those. Clearly there's a disconnect between what is happening and what people are feeling.
BLITZER: We have got to leave it there, unfortunately. We have breaking news this hour.
CLARKE: We're sticking around.
BLITZER: You're going to watch Cynthia McKinney. She is going to be coming up live here in THE SITUATION ROOM. The Democratic congresswoman. U.S. Capitol Police are now asking federal prosecutor to approve an arrest warrant for the Democratic congresswoman from Georgia. Guys, thank you very much for joining us.
Also much more in our top story. It broke an hour ago. Zacarias Moussaoui, he's eligible for the death sentence. We're going to tell you what is going on. Jack Cafferty also standing by. Stay with us.
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