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The Situation Room
Grand Jury Will Hear Testimony About Democratic Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney's Scuffle With Capitol Hill Police; California School District Banning Patriotic Symbols, National Colors Of United States and Mexico; High Praise For Senator Hillary Clinton From Unlikely Source; James Myart Interview; Katie Couric's Move
Aired April 05, 2006 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: And to our viewers, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time.
Standing by, CNN reporters across the United States and around the world to bring you tonight's top stories.
Happening now, it's 7:00 p.m. here in Washington. It began as a scuffle in the U.S. Capitol. Now it's breaking news, as federal prosecutors bring a congresswoman's case to a grand jury. We'll have an interview with Representative Cynthia McKinney and with the chief of the Capitol Police.
It's 7:00 p.m. in New York. Why is a founding father of the modern conservative movement in the United States saying nice things about Senator Hillary Clinton? Does it mean her move to the political center is working?
And she could start sleeping late. Katie Couric announces she's changing channels from NBC's "Today Show' to "The CBS Evening News." We have our eye on the new anchor.
I'm Wolf Blitzer. And you're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
We begin with breaking news. A fight in the halls of Congress appears headed to a fight in court. We just learned that a grand jury will hear testimony over last week's scuffle between Democratic Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney of Georgia and Capitol Hill Police.
Our Brian Todd is following this stunning turn of events. Let's bring him in now live -- Brian.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, federal law enforcement sources familiar with the case tell CNN federal prosecutors have decided to present the facts of Cynthia McKinney's scuffle with a Capitol Hill Police officer to a grand jury. That panel will take testimony from witnesses beginning Thursday, and two sources say a decision on possible charges could be made as early as next week.
The Justice Department is not commenting. The U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia which handles the case refused to comment. James Myart, one attorney representing the Georgia congresswoman, tells CNN he has no knowledge of any decision regarding a grand jury. McKinney's attorneys have said she was reacting instinctively when she says the officer inappropriately grabbed her. On CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING," McKinney also faulted the officer for not recognizing her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CYNTHIA MCKINNEY (D), GEORGIA: Let me say that this has become much ado about a hairdo. And the real issue...
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, and I hear you, but let me -- I'm going to stop you there because...
MCKINNEY: The real issue -- you can't stop me, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Well, I want to get to what happened first, and then we'll get into the real issue, because we need to establish what happened.
MCKINNEY: The real issue -- the real issue is face recognition and security around the Capitol complex.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: McKinney also contends she is a victim of racial profiling. The Capitol Hill police chief addressed that charge and again defended his officer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF TERRANCE GAINER, CAPITOL HILL POLICE: We also have to back up our officers. People cannot hit policemen when they disagree with what the policemen are doing.
If a member of Congress or any citizen thinks our officers are misbehaving, racial profiling, there's all sorts of procedures to check that out. The response is not to punch a police officer. That's very simple.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: Congressional sources tell CNN at least two eyewitnesses to the event, one from a Republican congressman's office and one from a Democrat's, have given statements to investigators. It is not clear whether those witnesses will be called before a grand jury -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Brian Todd, thank you very much for that.
Let's talk a little bit about what this new development might mean for a current member of the U.S. Congress. Joining us on the phone, our CNN senior legal analyst, Jeff Toobin.
Walk us through this process. Why are prosecutors going to a grand jury?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Wolf, prosecutors in a case like this use the grand jury to determine what the facts are. And here, obviously, it's not very complicated.
Either Cynthia McKinney committed a crime in assaulting or battering a police officer, or she didn't. And this way, they will have -- the prosecutors will have sworn statements from witness, and then they can make a decision whether to charge her with a crime or not.
But it needs to be said that prosecutors don't do -- take a step like this lightly. So I think certainly the empanelling of a grand jury on this issue is an indication Cynthia McKinney's in some serious trouble.
BLITZER: Because they didn't necessarily, Jeff, need to go to a grand jury. They could have simply pressed charges against her.
TOOBIN: They could have just pressed charges or they could have just dropped the matter. I think this is an indication of a cautious step indicating that they don't want to do anything, drop it or proceed hastily, and they'll have a good evidentiary basis. They'll have a solid foundation for whatever decision they make if they have sworn statements from any witnesses.
BLITZER: Jeff, you're a former federal prosecutor. This is a big deal to go ahead and file charges against a sitting member of the Congress, especially someone who's made these explosive accusations involving racial profiling.
TOOBIN: Well, it's always a big deal to charge a member of Congress, first of all, because they're simply prominent. But also, the Constitution addresses the possible criminal conduct of members of Congress.
There's a clause in the Constitution called the Speech or Debate Clause which says that Congress members can't be prosecuted for any kind of activity that is part of their job. Now, I think there's really very little chance that this could be implicated in a simple assault and battery case. But, any time a member of Congress is potentially liable, that constitutional provision is something prosecutors are going to have to look at.
And I bet it would be a part of any criminal case. At least perhaps part of the defense, if they proceed.
BLITZER: Hold on one second, Jeff, because on that point, our Abbi Tatton, our Internet reporter, is checking the congresswoman's Web site.
What are you picking up, Abbi?
ABBI TATTON, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Wolf, we've been seeing lots of updates and information at Cynthia McKinney's Web site here, her initial statement. One of the most recent things that's been posted there is a section from the U.S. Constitution that, as Jeff just mentioned here, that talks to -- this is Article 1, Section 6 -- "In all cases, except treason, felony and breach of the peace, representatives be privileged from arrest during their attendance at the session of their respective houses in going to and returning from the same."
Wolf, that posted at the Congresswoman McKinney's site now.
BLITZER: I'm sure that's not a coincidence.
Jeff Toobin, explain to our viewers precisely what that might mean as a defense for the congresswoman.
TOOBIN: Well, I think that section actually deals mostly with the mechanics of arrest. And I think there might be some limitation on whether she could be arrested on the grounds of the Capitol.
Needless to say, this doesn't come up a lot. But certainly she's not privileged from arrest outside the Capitol. She doesn't have any sort of immunity from the ultimate charge.
Whether she's arrested on the grounds of the Capitol, I think, is a more complicated question. But, in fact, in a circumstance like this, if charges are filed, she almost certainly would surrender to authorities. So there wouldn't be any -- any arrest at all.
So I -- so I -- But I think this quote is an illustration of the complexities of bringing a case against a member of Congress. It's not the same as charging anyone else with this crime.
BLITZER: Jeff Toobin, thank you very much.
It appears Congresswoman McKinney is not letting up from her claim she was racially profiled. Today, CNN's Soledad O'Brien pressed Congresswoman McKinney to simply state what happened. Yet, the congresswoman ducked that question repeatedly. Instead, repeatedly issuing charges of racism.
Here's that exchange from earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Good morning.
First, Congresswoman, can you tell me from the very beginning what happened on that day, Wednesday? You're trying to come in to your office to go to a meeting, I know. What happened?
MCKINNEY: Good morning, Soledad. Thank you so much for having us on this morning.
Let me say that this has become much ado about a hairdo. And the real issue...
O'BRIEN: Well, and I hear you, but I'm going to stop you there, because...
MCKINNEY: You can't stop me, Soledad. The real issue...
O'BRIEN: Well, I want to get to what happened first. And then we'll get into the real issue, because we need to establish what happened.
MCKINNEY: The real issue -- the real issue is face recognition and security around the Capitol complex. And I have an e-mail hear from a former page saying that 16-year-old pages are required to know by name and by face the -- all of the members of Congress. Shouldn't Capitol Hill Police officers be required to do the same?
O'BRIEN: The answer to that question may be, Congresswoman, no. Actually, technically, they're not. Their job is to protect yourself and your other fellow members of Congress.
But before we get into the far-reaching implications -- and I know we've been talking about race and racial profiling over the last several days -- I just want to know what happened. You go through the metal -- you approach the metal detector. Tell me in your own words what happened.
MIKE RAFFAUF, ATTORNEY FOR REP. MCKINNEY: Well, that should be answered by her attorney. Look, whatever reaction she had, this is not a criminal matter. What you had was bad security policy being implemented by a poorly-trained officer that led to the inappropriate stop and inappropriate touching of the congresswoman.
O'BRIEN: OK. So let me -- let me...
RAFFAUF: Now, whether she was pushed, a shove, a hit, it doesn't matter.
O'BRIEN: Well, what's the congresswoman's story?
Were you pushed? Were you shoved? Were you hit?
RAFFAUF: Well, again, we're not the ones who turned this into a criminal matter. And you know that a person who's accused of a crime is not going to give a statement at this point. So...
O'BRIEN: But actually -- but with all due respect, sir -- and gosh knows I'm not a lawyer. Lots of people who are accused of a crime would say, here's what happened. Why can't someone just walk me through what happened?
RAFFAUF: Well, we don't know -- we haven't been told what happened.
O'BRIEN: From your side, what happened? From the congresswoman's side, what happened?
MCKINNEY: Well, let me just say that it is a fact that we have had several discussions -- and you're absolutely right, right there at CNN, about this larger issue of racial profiling. We've had a press conference with Danny Glover and Harry Belafonte where 39 young African-Americans from Georgia told their story about how they were -- they felt disrespected and mistreated by the Capitol Police. We have...
O'BRIEN: With all due respect, Congresswoman -- and forgive me for interrupting you, but I believe we can't have this...
MCKINNEY: No, but you shouldn't interrupt me, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Well, until you answer my question, I'm not sure we can move on. What I'm trying to establish is...
MCKINNEY: We have 250...
O'BRIEN: Are you saying that a Capitol Police officer pushed you, grabbed you inappropriately? And ma'am, if he did, please explain what happened. That's all. Let's establish that.
Then I would love to talk about racial profiling. I have a great interest in talking about race.
JAMES MYART, JR., ATTORNEY: Soledad, I appreciate the fact that you're trying to interview her...
S. O'BRIEN: I believe this is your attorney on the phone.
MYART: ... and get her to answer certain question. But look, if this was such a big crime, why was Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney not arrested on the spot? Now, we have got to get the stories correct here.
S. O'BRIEN: I could not agree with you more. I could not agree with you more that we should get the stories correct.
So somebody, anybody, lawyer, Congresswoman, you walk up to get in to the office building. What happened?
Did you -- you weren't wearing your pin, I know, and you've said that. You did say that on an interview with Wolf Blitzer. You approached the area. What -- just tell me what happened.
MCKINNEY: I'll tell you what happened.
S. O'BRIEN: Thank you.
MCKINNEY: In fact, over 250 black police officers have filed a lawsuit against the U.S. Capitol Police Department...
S. O'BRIEN: Forgive me for my lack of clarity. What happened that day, ma'am?
RAFFAUF: Look, we have answered that question as to the best we can under these circumstances. Again, this matter is under review right now.
Criminal charges may be brought. Congresswoman McKinney did cooperate with the Capitol Hill Police. She sat down with them. This is not going to be a place where we're going to rehash the facts of this incident.
O'BRIEN: With all due...
MCKINNEY: But Soledad -- Soledad...
O'BRIEN: Wait. Just let me say one thing. No, actually, this is my program, so one quick thing. You haven't rehashed it. You've never...
MCKINNEY: And I'm -- and I'm your guest.
O'BRIEN: And I'm happy to have you as a guest.
MCKINNEY: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: And you know I'm always happy to talk to you about this issue or any other issue.
MCKINNEY: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: But what's at issue here, with all due respect, is what happened on that day. Did you push the police officer?
RAFFAUF: We don't know. We don't even know the allegations.
O'BRIEN: Did the police officer...
RAFFAUF: We don't know what specifically she's accused of. So...
O'BRIEN: OK.
MCKINNEY: And Soledad, let me also just say that while we're talking about a new hairdo and a pin -- this is the congressional pin that doesn't have a name on it, it doesn't have a face or a photo I.D. on it, and quite frankly, it can be duplicated. But what are the other issues that we're not talking about?
I'm going to continue to talk about the fact that the Republican budget drowns America's children in a sea of debt. I'm going to continue to talk about the war in Iraq and my opposition to it. I'm going to continue to talk about the -- my opposition to any impending strike against Iran, no more war.
O'BRIEN: All interesting -- all interesting topics, ma'am, but to a large degree, what's being talked about now is an issue that's really unclear how you're going to get a straight story out of.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: We're going to have much more coming up on this story. Breaking news, Cynthia McKinney, charges may be going forward. Prosecutors now referring the matter to a grand jury here in Washington.
Coming up, we're going to hear from the police, the police side of this story. We'll have an interview with Congresswoman McKinney's attorney, James Myart, as well the police chief, Terrance Gainer. We'll hear from him.
First, though, let's hear from Jack Cafferty. He's standing by in "The Cafferty File" -- Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: ... the lawyers, and now the point is, if I wasn't on duty and forced by terms of my employment agreement to have to sit here and listen to that garbage for the last five minutes, I'd have thrown something at the front of the TV set or walked out.
Another day of whining from Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney. When she refused to identify herself and was stopped by Capitol Police, she allegedly took a swing at a cop. Now she's running all around to all the TV shows in the country, refusing to answer any questions about what happened, and instead is trying her damnedest to turn this into some sort of racial incident.
But the U.S. Capitol Police chief disagrees. Terrance Gainer says racism is not a factor. He says he's seen his officers stop members of all races, male and female.
And then there's former House majority leader Tom DeLay, who, of course, announced his resignation from Congress yesterday. DeLay says it's McKinney, not the police, who's a racist.
In a TV interview, DeLay said, "She has a long history of racism. Everything is racism with her. This is incredible arrogance that sometimes hits these members of Congress, but especially Cynthia McKinney."
Imagine, Tom DeLay accusing someone else in Congress of being arrogant.
Anyway, here's the question. When it comes to Representative Cynthia McKinney's story, is anyone guilty of racism?
You can e-mail your thoughts to caffertyfile@CNN.com or go to CNN.com/caffertyfile.
One of the more tedious things I've sat through in recent memory.
BLITZER: Well, get ready, Jack. You're going to have to sit through some more. Jack, stand by.
Coming up, we'll have more on Cynthia McKinney's Capitol Hill scuffle, news that the case has been referred to a grand jury here in Washington. The chief of the Capitol Hill Police force speaking out about the incident and McKinney responding. You're going to stay right here and you're going to see it.
We'll also be joined live by McKinney's attorney, James Myart.
All that coming up.
And later, the heated debate over illegal immigration leading one school district to take clearly drastic action. Details of a new rule that could face a legal challenge; namely, banning the American flag from that school. Plus, high praise for Hillary Clinton from a very unlikely source. We're going to show you which conservative icon says she could be elected the next president of the United States.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Returning now to our top story, a grand jury here in Washington will hear testimony concerning the scuffle between Georgia Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney and Capitol Hill Police. Moments ago, we played an interview McKinney gave to our Soledad O'Brien of CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING." Now we get the other side from the Capitol Hill Police chief, Terrance Gainer.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Chief Gainer, thank you for talking with us.
CHIEF TERRANCE GAINER, U.S. CAPITOL POLICE: Good morning.
O'BRIEN: I have not been able to get a sense of the congresswoman's side of exactly what happened. Can you tell me what the officer has told you about what happened?
GAINER: Well, the matter is pending review by the U.S. attorney's office. But in essence what happened, the member approached the door.
Members don't have to go through the magnetometers but the need to be recognized. It was a busy door. The officer did not recognize the member. She was not wearing her pin. He reached out and grabbed her. She turned around and hit him.
O'BRIEN: Hit him with her hand? Hit him with a cell phone? Hit him with...
GAINER: The cell phone was in her hand and we believe it was in the chest. So all the tapes are being reviewed. And the bottom line for us is, we do pride ourselves in security.
It wasn't racial profiling. Anytime an officer doesn't know who someone is coming in the building, I direct them to stop that person. And even if you're stopped, you're not supposed to hit a police officer. It's very simple.
O'BRIEN: There are 535 members of Congress. Congresswoman McKinney has said there's only 14 black female Congress members. You know, the idea that they could not recognize, pick her face out. I mean there's so few, shouldn't she stand out? Doesn't she have a point there?
GAINER: Well, number one, I don't think we should be treating members of Congress different because how they look. Ideally, we teach our officers who the members are. When they go through the academy, they learn that.
When new members come in, they're given those photographs. But at those busy doors where some 30,000 people come into our complex who work there, some nine million visitors a year, the doors are busy and the officers are told, slow down and make sure we know who's coming in the building.
O'BRIEN: Now she's not a...
GAINER: This should have been handled very simply by saying -- he pulled her, as he should have, because he didn't know who she was. It would have been very simple to say, gee, I got a little bit angry, this shouldn't have happened, let's kind of calm down and take our breath. This is not a racial issue.
O'BRIEN: OK, well two points then. First, you're saying that you wouldn't -- there wouldn't be a call for her arrest if -- or criminal charges if she had apologized? Is that what it comes down to?
GAINER: No. What I'm saying is, it could have ended very quickly then, but we also have to back up our officers. People cannot hit policemen when they disagree with what the policemen are doing. If a member of Congress or any citizen thinks our officers are misbehaving, racial profiling, there's all sorts of procedures to check that out. The response is not to punch a police officer. That's very simple.
O'BRIEN: This is a woman who's served six terms in Congress. It's not like, you know, well she just joined and that's why they didn't realize who she was. Can understand her frustration . . .
GAINER: I sure can.
O'BRIEN: Especially as a black woman, you know, she's the minority in the minority there, to feel like, how come everyone assumes I don't belong here?
GAINER: Well, that's not the case at all. I've seen our officers stop white members and black members, and Latino, male and female.
It's not an issue about what your race or gender is, it's an issue about making sure people who come into our building are recognized if they're not going through the magnetometer. And this officer, at that moment, didn't recognize her. And it would have been real easy, as most members of Congress do, to say here's who I am or do you know who I am?
One of the ways you do is you have the pin on. And even with the pin, that's not an automatic entrance. The officer would look at the pin, look at the person. And if he saw the pin and the person and it didn't ring true to him, the officer would say, who are you? Even the high and the haughty should be able to stop and say, I'm a congressman and then everybody moves on.
O'BRIEN: Chief Gainer, let me bring Congresswoman McKinney back in to talk with us.
Congresswoman McKinney, you've been listening to what the chief has had to say. Any final word? Any response?
RAFFAUF: Well, I think that she did sit down with them the same day. She sat down with the supervisors...
O'BRIEN: I'm sorry. Let me -- forgive me. Forgive me. This is not a legal question. It's just a, do you have a final response, Congresswoman?
MCKINNEY: Soledad, I think you should accept the response that my attorney is trying to give to you.
RAFFAUF: She sat down with the supervisor of the Capitol Hill Police force that day. She talked to him about what happened. She offered to talk to the officer. So the congresswoman is not the one who's blown this incident all out of proportions. Again, I think that the officer you've interviewed can see this should not be a criminal matter, and we wholeheartedly agree, but it's not the congresswoman who's made this escalate into what it's become.
O'BRIEN: And, Congresswoman, do you have any final response to what you heard from Chief Gainer?
MCKINNEY: I would just like to say, thank you, Soledad, for the questions that you've asked, but also I would just like to say that the actions of a few officers do not representative the actions of an entire police department. And finally, I would just like to also add, that right now the U.S. Capitol Police have two outstanding lawsuits that have been filed against them by their own black police officers. And so if we're going to have a discussion, let's have a complete discussion of all of the facts.
O'BRIEN: Those are class action lawsuits dating back to 2001, absolutely true. However, with all due respect, if I had gotten answers a little more quickly, maybe we could have gotten to that as well.
Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney joining us, her lawyers, Mike Raffauf and also James Myart, who's on the phone.
Terrance Gainer is the chief of the Capitol Hill Police.
To all of you, thank you very much. I appreciate your time.
GAINER: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: We want to thank Soledad O'Brien for doing that excellent interview on "AMERICAN MORNING" earlier today.
We're also waiting for reaction now to the breaking news that the case against Congresswoman McKinney is going to a grand jury here in Washington. We're told her attorney is on the way over here to THE SITUATION ROOM. We're going to touch base with him momentarily, get his reaction to the breaking news.
Also ahead here in THE SITUATION ROOM, outrage over a flag ban in one California school district. It's the latest skirmish in the border battle. We're going to show you what sparked the controversial move; namely, to ban an American flag from flying in a public school.
Plus, what some might see as blasphemy from the patriarch of the conservative movement in the United States. Details of what William F. Buckley said about Senator Hillary Clinton.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back to THE SITUATION ROOM. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
We're following a developing story tonight. Prosecutors here in Washington referring the case of Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney to a grand jury. It stems from a scuffle she had last week with a Capitol Hill Police officer.
One of her attorneys, James Myart, is standing by. He'll join us here in THE SITUATION ROOM. That interview is coming up.
First, though, some other news we're following this hour.
After protests over immigration policy, one California school district is now cracking down, banning patriotic symbols, including the national colors of the United States and Mexico.
Let's go live to CNN's Chris Lawrence. He's joining us in Los Angeles.
Chris, what is going on?
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, when the student protest ended, the controversy did not. This one letter from a superintendent to his students is generating quite a bit of its own.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LAWRENCE (voice-over): As Congress consider ways to toughen immigration policy, students near San Diego protested in the streets. A few were arrested for pelting police with rocks and bottles, and some faced off against each other.
KEN NOONAN, OCEANSIDE, CALIFORNIA, SCHOOL SUPT.: Some of them would wave the Mexican flag, then someone else would wave an American flag, almost as if they were use the flags as emotional weapons with each other.
LAWRENCE: So the Oceanside superintendent clamped down. But the American Civil Liberties Union is investigating whether he went too far. The district told students they can't bring anything to school that could be disruptive, including the clothes they wear, face paint, signs and flags.
The ACLU's executive director told us it's too soon to say it would challenge the ban in court, but, "We are taking any complaints from the community very seriously. The superintendent seems to be using a different standard, which is not the constitutional standard. This ban applies to wearing a T-shirt with the American flag." People in Oceanside are split on the new rule.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that's a good idea.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They should be able to bring a flag to school as long as they are not doing nothing bad with it.
LAWRENCE: Oceanside school officials say they're not banning all flags. Some are already positioned on flagpoles and in classrooms. But the days when students could wear cultural or national pride on their sleeves is over.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LAWRENCE: The officials tell me that there may be certain instances where it might be OK to wear, say, an American flag T-shirt, if it didn't cause a disruption. They also say it's possible that this ban could be lifted at some point when perhaps they feel that students are safe or perhaps by force by any possible legal challenge -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Chris Lawrence, thank you very much.
A political phenomenon, who might easily be president. Those were specific words, high praise for Senator Hillary Clinton from an unlikely source, the conservative icon William F. Buckley.
CNN's Mary Snow is joining us now with more on what some might see as Buckley's blasphemy.
What's going on, Mary?
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, to say that some were surprised by Buckley's comments would be putting it mildly. The 80- year-old Buckley says right now he doesn't see a strong candidate among Republicans for 2008 but among Democrats he thinks Hillary Rodham Clinton could make history.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM F. BUCKLEY JR., NATIONAL REVIEW FOUNDER: Well, Hillary Clinton is primarily, I think, a political phenomenon.
SNOW (voice-over): Yes, you heard correctly. William F. Buckley, the bastion of conservatives, founder of "National Review," praising the nemesis of the Republican Party, Senator Hillary Clinton. In an interview with Bloomberg Television, he called Clinton a consequential woman.
BUCKLEY: I think it's just primarily interesting as being a phenomenon, a woman candidate who might easily become president.
SNOW: Buckley has had his share of political influence. President Bush honored him in October.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And he formed a magazine that helped move conservatism from the margins of American society into the Oval Office.
SNOW: Ronald Reagan was also influenced by Buckley. So what is it about Hillary Clinton that strikes Buckley?
BUCKLEY: Her thought is kind of woozy left, not in my judge threatening. So I think she's primarily interested as being a phenomenon.
LARRY SABATO, DIR., UVA CENTER FOR POLITICS: Certainly Hillary Clinton's been trying to moderate and having William F. Buckley praise her even as a candidate is significant.
SNOW: But has Senator Clinton, who has teamed up recently on various issues with Republicans, moved too far to the center? Hollywood seems to be cooling to Hillary Clinton, who was once seen as a liberal darling. Susan Sarandon for one told "More Magazine" Clinton was a disappointment. And George Clooney recently criticized Democratic leaders who voted in support of the war, and that includes Hillary Clinton.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: So who is the Hollywood Democratic favorite for 2008? Political observers say for the moment it's Al Gore, who's already said he's not running -- Wolf.
BLITZER: We shall see if he will run. He can always change his mind. Mary, thank you very much for that. Zain Verjee has the day off. Carol Lin is joining us from the CNN global headquarters with a closer look at other stories making news.
Hi, Carol.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks for that, Wolf. For the first time since the 9/11 attacks the public will hear what is on the cockpit voice recorder recovered from United Airlines flight 93. The federal judge presiding over Zacarias Moussaoui's death penalty trial ruled today that the tape can be played for jurors deciding his fate. The jetliner crashed in Pennsylvania after passengers tried to storm the cockpit.
Well, it is now up to Congress to settle the contract negotiations between the government and the Air Traffic Controllers Union. Contract talks broke off today when both sides could not reach an agreement. The big sticking point right now is compensation. Congress has 60 days to settle the dispute.
And today, for the first time in his six-month-old trial, Saddam Hussein undergoes cross-examination by prosecutors. He told the court that in the 1980s, he gave the nod to death sentences against 148 Shiites because he was convinced they would try to assassinate him. Now he denied signing documents authorizing the deaths of children. He said the documents with his signature were forged.
Wolf, that's it from here.
BLITZER: Carol. Thank you, Carol. Thanks very much.
And we're following a developing story this hour. A grand jury set to hear testimony over the confrontation between Democratic Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney of Georgia and a Capitol Hill Police Officer. The grand jury could hear testimony as early as tomorrow and make a decision in the coming days.
Just ahead we'll get some fresh reaction from one of the congresswoman's attorneys, James Myart. He's standing by to join us live here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: More now on that developing story we are following tonight. The case against Cynthia McKinney, the Democratic congresswoman from Georgia, apparently going to a grand jury testimony we expect to take place in the coming days. A decision presumably will be made in the not too distant future whether to go ahead and file criminal charges against her.
We are also hearing that a congressional staffer, a house staffer, has been subpoenaed now to go before that grand jury to testify, presumably an eyewitness to the incident that occurred last week.
Joining us now is James Myart. He is an attorney representing Congresswoman McKinney. He is joining us here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
JAMES MYART, MCKINNEY ATTORNEY: Thank you very much.
BLITZER: James, thanks very much for joining us.
First of all, update our viewers what exactly you know about this case being referred to a grand jury.
MYART: Well, first of all it is an absolute rumor.
BLITZER: Rumor, is that what you said?
MYART: Absolutely.
BLITZER: We have confirmed it, multiple sources, federal prosecutors. Multiple sources are telling us that it has now gone to a grand jury.
MYART: Well, I do know this that there was a grand jury today but it did not involve this case. I would not be surprised if it did go to a grand jury but generally what happens is, is that U.S. attorneys and other prosecutors will contact the known lawyers of the persons who are supposed to be defendants to give them information in connection with it. That has not been the case.
BLITZER: So what you are saying is no federal prosecutors contacted you or any other attorney representing Congresswoman McKinney to at least give you the courtesy of letting you know that they are referring this to a grand jury? And that would be normal standard operating procedure?
MYART: Yes, it would be standard operating procedure. They are not required to give me notice. But the fact of the matter is in our profession there is such a thing as professional courtesy. So I would doubt very seriously that that is true. But I have not heard it. And if you have confirmed it then I can only accept what you say. However, I don't deal in rumor nor any window.
BLITZER: So you will wait to get the official notification and move forward. If in fact it is true -- and not only CNN but other news organizations are reporting this as well -- what does it mean as far as your client is concerned that they have decided to go ahead and send it to a grand jury?
MYART: Well, let me put it to you this way, it is certainly something that I would expect. There has been a complaint filed by a Capitol police officer against Congresswoman McKinney. It has been referred to the U.S. attorney, and I would expect those standard operating procedures to continue.
I am not surprised by it even if it is true. That is the way our judicial system works. Remember, a grand jury is only there to make a determination as to whether or not there is sufficient evidence to stand trial. It is certainly not the truth, and it is certainly not a conviction.
BLITZER: But, you know, the old adage that a prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich if they want to.
MYART: I would think so. However, I will tell you, from my sources, that that simply is not the case. That the U.S. Attorney's Office is as concerned about the validity of this case, quite frankly, as are the people at the Capitol Police. Because the Capitol Police right now are in absolute disarray. They had their chief go on national TV, I believe CNN, this morning and make several very serious --
BLITZER: He was on "AMERICAN MORNING" with our Soledad O'Brien. Listen to this excerpt of what he said, Chief Terrance Gainer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF TERRANCE GAINER, CAPITOL POLICE: In essence what happened, the member approached the door, members don't have to go through the magnetometers, but they need to be recognized. There was a busy door. The officer did not recognize the member. She was not wearing her pin. He reached out and grabbed her. She turned around and hit him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Sounds like a simple open and shut case. She hit him. That's what he says.
MYART: What he also said was that the police officer grabbed the Congresswoman. And he had absolutely no right, nor justification to do so.
BLITZER: Let me press you on that. Because if she wasn't wearing her lapel pin that identifies her as a member of Congress, the officer did not recognize her, maybe he should have, but he didn't recognize her, he's trying to protect 435 members of the House of Representatives, and he says stop. She doesn't stop, what is he supposed to do, just let some stranger walk in to the U.S. Capitol?
MYART: Let me respond to that this way. Number one, they have, that is Capitol Police, have an absolute responsibility to protect members of Congress. There are 42 black members of Congress, 14 of those black members of Congress are females. It is incredulous to believe that the Capitol Police cannot recognize one of 14 black women.
BLITZER: But we've had ...
MYART: That in itself is an insult. Secondly, I want to say, that I have subsequently spoken with the Capitol Police, and they are furious that Chief Gainer got on national TV and made the suggestions that he made, because he is now a fired chief.
So I've been in contact with the Capitol Police. They are in complete disarray, and very upset that he even made the admissions that he made on national TV.
BLITZER: He is retiring from the police force as of the end of this week. But that's an unrelated matter. That was announced long before the Cynthia McKinney incident occurred. I want you to stand by. I want to continue this conversation. We have a lot more questions, including this question that I'm going to ask it to you, do you believe she will be indicted? Don't answer that yet.
We're going to take a quick break. More of our interview with James Myart. He's representing Democratic Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney. We're here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. We're following a developing story. The Democratic Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney of Georgia. Her case may be referred to a grand jury. We're standing by for additional information. Joining us once again, her attorney James Myart, he's in THE SITUATION ROOM. Do you think she's going to be indicted?
MYART: I really don't know. But I'll be very honest with you. I would not be surprised. Grand juries do what grand juries do. However, I would think that they would recognize that there simply is not enough evidence here to even bring an indictment.
BLITZER: The chief says she turned around, and hit him. When he grabbed her, and she refused to stop. MYART: Wolf, let me just respond to that.
BLITZER: Did she hit him?
MYART: I'm an attorney and please believe me, when there's a pending investigation it is very imprudent to make any comment with regard to the specific facts. I will say, however, that after the incident, the chief of police, and a number of other top police officials went to Congresswoman McKinney's office, and said several things.
One, they said he should have never touched you. We apologize for that. Now, there's another important point. If you assault a police officer, why then would that police officer not arrest you on the spot? They have a very real problem with their case. If I were in a situation, as a male, or you, for that matter, hit a police officer, we would be bum-rushed, handcuffed, arrested and carted off to jail. That did not happen in this situation.
BLITZER: What about the fact that the police chief said they're reviewing videotapes? Have you been told that there is a video of the incident?
MYART: No. I have not been told that directly. But I did call Chief Gainer this morning since he publicized it on national TV and asked him for a copy of the tape. I think it would only be fair for defense council to see it. But I have not seen it as of yet.
BLITZER: Lots has been made, as you know, that she changed her hairdo in recent weeks, and that may have been a reason why the Capitol police officer did not recognize her. Take a look at those two pictures behind you over there. You can see, that's what she looked like and that's from her own Web site. And that's what she looks like now. Is it unrealistic to assume a police officer might not necessarily have recognized her?
MYART: Well, first of all, she's beautiful.
BLITZER: Well that's another matter.
MYART: In both pictures. But I will tell you this that it's a cultural cop-out for a police officer to say that they could not recognize an eleven-year member of Congress because they change their hair style. I am so sick and tired of hearing this argument about she changed her hair style. They're supposed to recognize her.
BLITZER: I want you invite you to come back in THE SITUATION ROOM and if Congresswoman McKinney would like to come back tomorrow we'd like to continue this conversation. Presumably that grand jury could convene as early as tomorrow and there might be news. So we'll be watching closely.
MYART: May I say one thing?
BLITZER: You may. MYART: That is this. There's a bigger issue here and the issue is racial profiling and how people of color are treated by law enforcement officials across this country.
There is a heightened level of suspicion of black people. That, quote, all look alike. At a commensurate response from law enforcement officials because of that heightened suspicion. It's a national debate and I think it should continue.
BLITZER: We'll continue it tomorrow, James Myart thanks very much for joining us.
MYART: Thank you very much for having me here.
BLITZER: Up next in THE SITUATION ROOM, more on that developing story, the case of Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney, now referred to a grand jury. Jack Cafferty asks, when it comes to Representative McKinney's story is anyone guilty of racism? That's his question.
And the news that everyone knew, Jeanne Moos on Katie Couric's big switch. That's coming up as well.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: The bottom line on the markets, the Dow, the NASDAQ, S&P all ended the day in positive territory.
Jack Cafferty is standing by with "The Cafferty File" -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: You know what I've noticed? When you do that bottom line thing the markets always go up. Why is that?
BLITZER: I guess I'm good luck with it.
CAFFERTY: There you go. A grand jury is going to hear testimony in that case over the confrontation between Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney, and a Capitol Hill Police officer. McKinney says it's all about race.
Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay weighed in on this, said it's McKinney, not the police, who's the racist. So the question is, when it comes to Representative Cynthia McKinney's story, is anyone guilty of racism?
Dave writes, Miss McKinney's "disregard for established security policy caused this situation to begin with. Her ridiculous calls of racial profiling appear to be an attempt to mitigate the impact of her assault on the police officer. She's the one who's coming off looking like a racist."
Derek in Gore, Virginia: "As a former U.S. Capitol Police officer, and current federal air marshal, I witnessed on multiple occasions Representative McKinney verbally accosting police officers that didn't recognize her. I'm glad she's finally being called out for her bad behavior. Conduct like hers should not be tolerated." George in Follansbee, West Virginia: "Jack, it was more of a case of two control freaks going at it. Miss McKinney undoubtedly felt she had moved from public servant to royalty and could bypass channels, but I think the guard may have reacted differently if the perp had been a petit blonde."
Glenn in Atlanta, George: "I live in Miss McKinney's district. She's an abomination. When in doubt, play the race card. She's arrogant and misguided. I once sat besides her on a Delta flight. She was upgraded without cost, fussed about the food selection and put her sock-clad feet on the wall for all to see. Class? Not."
And Gail writes, "With the bad hair day she had, she should be happy she wasn't recognized" -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Jack, see you tomorrow. Let's find out what's coming up on "PAULA ZAHN NOW." Paula is standing by -- Paula.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Boy, those folks let you really know what they think, don't they, Wolf? Coming up just about six minutes from now, my exclusive conversation with Rosie O'Donnell.
She talks about her decision to come out of the closet, the public's angry reaction about her own family. And how does she deal with her oldest sons asking some very provocative questions about having two mothers? Well she happened to be quite remarkable and remarkably candid, and you will see all of that coming up at the top of the hour -- Wolf.
BLITZER: I'm going to stick around for that, Paula. Thank you very much. Still ahead, Katie Couric's long good-bye. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: It's a long good-bye. Katie Couric talks about today and tomorrow. Here's CNN's Jeanne Moos.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Katie Couric is facing the music, from this music ...
(MUSIC)
MOOS: ... to this.
(MUSIC)
MOOS: After weeks of speculation ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Katie Couric Countdown Clock.
MOOS: ... the clock stopped.
KATIE COURIC, "TODAY SHOW" HOST: I know it's the worst-kept secret in America. REGIS PHILBIN, TALK SHOW HOST: She's gone, baby.
COURIC: After listening to my heart and my gut.
PHILBIN: She cannot be stopped.
MOOS: Katie Couric is no longer merely eyeing the chair. She's going to fill it.
(on camera): The "CBS Evening News" with Katie Couric. Does that do it for you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That works for me.
MOOS (voice-over): On her 15th anniversary with "The Today Show," Katie announced she was leaving. First they played an old clip of her debut.
COURIC: Wow, I think that was like 172 hairstyles ago.
MOOS: Another 172 to come. Then it was time to say how much she'd miss everybody, including her co-host.
COURIC: Just as Dorothy said to the Scarecrow ...
JUDY GARLAND, ACTRESS: I think I'll miss you most of all.
COURIC: I think I'm going to miss him most of all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well done, well done.
COURIC: Get your hand off my knee.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can't wait to see Bob Schieffer do that.
MOOS: Can't wait to see Bob Schieffer do that, the CBS anchor Katie will replace. As for replacing Katie, Meredith Vieira from "The View" is said to be close to a deal. Katie was picked for her mass appeal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's spunky.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's charming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very knowledgeable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's something honest about her.
MOOS: Though some brought up the p-word.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Katie's too perky. When's she going to crack a joke and what not? When she's reading about deaths in Iraq?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, she's cute. Guys like her. My son thinks she's cute. He's 11.
MOOS: In addition to all those serious interviews ...
COURIC: Are you still searching for the real killers?
MOOS: ... Katie has done the voice of a fish.
COURIC: I'm Katie Current, keeping it current.
MOOS: And remember when she guest-hosted "The Tonight Show"?
COURIC: For all you people from L.A. who've never seen them before, these are actually real.
MOOS: She even dressed up as Mary Poppins.
LARRY KING, CNN ANCHOR: Well you'll never get to be the anchor of the "NBC Nightly News."
MOOS: Nope, just the "CBS Evening News." And Katie's days of dancing with Antonio Banderas are numbered. It may take two to tango, but Katie's going solo on this set. Last dance ...
COURIC: This is "Today" on NBC.
MOOS: Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Good luck, Katie. Let's go to Paula in New York -- Paula.
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