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The Situation Room
Porter Goss Resigns; CIA Leak Case; Congressman Patrick Kennedy Announces He'll Seek Treatment for Addiction, Depression
Aired May 05, 2006 - 16:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: And to our viewers, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time.
Standing by, CNN reporters across the United States and around the world to bring you today's top stories.
Happening now, it's 5:00 p.m. here in Washington, where it's an extraordinary news day. The CIA chief hangs up his cloak and dagger without a word of explanation. What's behind the sudden resignation of Porter Goss?
Congressman Patrick Kennedy says he remembers nothing about his car crash on Capitol Hill, and announces he'll seek treatment for addiction and depression. Can he keep his political career on track?
And Congressman Duncan Hunter backs a bill that would make it a felony to help illegal immigrants. His brother regularly helps those sneaking across the U.S. border. Could one of those brothers send the other brother to jail?
I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
The nation's capital is being rocked by a pair of breaking-news bomb shells this afternoon, leaving question marks over the futures of two public servants and a cloud hanging over the nation's intelligence community.
Just ahead, the stunning announcement from Democratic Congressman Patrick Kennedy that he's seeking treatment for substance abuse after yesterday's predawn car crash on Capitol Hill.
But first, it was a sudden and surprising announcement, and it's still shrouded in secrecy. President Bush today announced the resignation of the CIA director, Porter Goss, but there was no explanation given for Goss' departure after a year and a half on the job.
Let's go straight to CNN's Kathleen Koch. She's following this story for us at the White House -- Kathleen.
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, it was a sudden announcement and did come as a surprise to many in Washington. But it turns out, the trouble may have been brewing behind the scenes for some time, and the press secretary here at the White House, Scott McClellan, does tell CNN that a replacement may be named very soon for Negroponte, perhaps as soon as Monday.
And when it comes to the trouble brewing behind the scenes, a senior administration official tells CNN that the resignation was based on a mutual understanding between Goss, the president, and the director of National Intelligence, John Negroponte. And that source continues by saying that it was Negroponte himself who raised the subject of resignation with Goss.
Now, still, President Bush had nothing but praise for Goss. So, when he accepted the resignation today, saying that he appreciated Goss' integrity and candid advice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am confident that his successor will continue the reforms that he's put into place, and as a result, this country will be more secure. We've got to win the war on terror, and the Central Intelligence Agency is a vital part of that war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOCH: Now, some do believe, again, that it was the creation of the position of the director of National Intelligence back in April of 2005 that really is at the root of Goss' departure today, because it diluted his power, diluted his access to the president. Another senior official telling CNN, there's been "obvious tension and dysfunction" in the Goss-Negroponte relationship. Yet, another official explaining that the men had basically come to a policy crossroads, with Negroponte trying to pull more responsibilities out of the CIA, and then Porter Goss pushing back strongly, insisting that doing that would simply dilute the agency's ability to do its job.
A senior government official often involved in intelligence matters, though, does say that this announcement was unplanned, that it was put together in a hurry, something that the president doesn't like. One other unanswered question in all of this is just how long Goss will stay on the job. We assume, now, with this announcement, if a replacement comes next week, as soon as Monday, that he'll certainly be on the job through that point -- Wolf.
BLITZER: And then, of course, that person, whoever is nominated, would have to go through confirmation process on the Hill. That could be tricky.
KOCH: Certainly.
BLITZER: We'll watch all of this, Kathleen. Thank you very much.
Let's get some more now on the sudden resignation of the CIA chief, Porter Goss. Joining us here in THE SITUATION ROOM, our national security correspondent, David Ensor, and our CNN national security adviser, John McLaughlin. He's a former deputy director of the CIA. David, what are you hearing? You cover the CIA, you cover the intelligence community. What are you hearing from your sources on what happened, that, all of a sudden, Porter Goss says, bye?
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: There has been a dispute brewing for some time now, Wolf. This is not -- it's a surprise that it's happening on this Friday, on this day.
We have been hearing from senior officials for some time now they thought he would be out by September, certainly, that he would not serve a full two years in the office, because he had, first of all, disagreements, policy disagreements, as Kathleen mentioned, with his superiors. Mr. Negroponte has been trying to move some of the responsibilities out of the CIA into the DNI's office, and to the National Counterterrorism Center.
Some of the top people that do counterterrorism, they are -- they are the best people the U.S. has got, and the director -- Director Negroponte wants them in a different place. So there was that.
Then there was the president's foreign intelligence advisory board has not been happy with what they have seen at the CIA. They have been calling in senior people and saying, we don't see the kind of change that we should see, the CIA is not getting with the plan, they don't seem to be accustomed to being a service organization for the DNI, rather than being the top dogs, as they used to be.
So, there's been trouble brewing for some time now. It's not a surprising he's leaving. It is surprising he's leaving on a Friday -- on a Friday evening in May.
BLITZER: What are you hearing, John McLaughlin? What does your gut tell you about what's going on?
JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, FMR. DEPUTY CIA DIRECTOR: I think when we learn more about this, we'll find that it is somehow embedded in the difficulty of making a transition to a new intelligence structure in the United States, as David indicated.
BLITZER: So, it's more turf than it is substance?
MCLAUGHLIN: I wouldn't call it turf. It's substance, because when you talk about the issue of terrorism, for example, the counterterrorism center at the CIA has been extraordinarily successful over the years in apprehending terrorists and preventing an attack in this country.
So, when you start dividing up responsibilities between that center and the National Counterterrorism Center, there's work for both. Don't misunderstand me. But it gets tricky.
BLITZER: Because the intelligence community -- good intelligence, everyone realizes is the first line of defense in preventing another 9/11, another major terror attack. And if you have this kind of fighting going on, and a morale issue in the intelligence community, especially at the CIA, which clearly is a fact right now -- there's a lot of demoralized people working there, a lot of them have already quit -- that's going to undermine the intelligence capability of the United States.
MCLAUGHLIN: Well, it's not only the first line of defense, it's also, in many respects, when you get outside of a place like Iraq or Afghanistan, it's also the first line of offense. There's a very important operational component to counterterrorism.
Intelligence officers are on the front line around the world. Most of them work for the CIA. Although, we've got NSA officers and DNI out there, as well. And, so, how you manage counterterrorism and how you divide up those people and how you assign roles is a very difficult thing.
BLITZER: Is it your sense that if the announcement comes as early as next week, as our White House sources are now suggesting -- Scott McClellan suggesting maybe the president will make an announcement next week some time -- that whoever emerges as the next CIA director clearly will be working for John Negroponte and will be very familiar of that, and that in and of itself is going to be further demoralization for the CIA?
ENSOR: Not necessarily. If someone who's considered a safe pair of hands by the CIA is appointed to direct, they might be actually very pleased.
To be honest, while Porter Goss is liked and is thought to be a very decent man, and he's done a lot, put a lot of effort in trying to build human intelligence gathering by the CIA, a lot of people don't feel his tenure has been a success. It got off on a bad start with the firing of some of what many people at the agency felt were the best and brightest by his chief of staff. And it's been problems ever since then.
So, if a safe pair of hands is picked -- and, you know, this person is going to have to be confirmed. So, they probably are going to pick somebody who's a career professional. I don't think you are going to see another Republican congressman.
BLITZER: We will wait and see for next week. Stand by. Both of you are going to be back here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
David Ensor, John McLaughlin, as usual, thanks to both of you.
And still coming up in THE SITUATION ROOM, is the CIA in a state of crisis?
And Donald Rumsfeld under fire. I'll speak live with Ray McGovern. He's the former CIA analyst who angrily confronted the defense secretary yesterday in Atlanta, and with Frank Gaffney, a former Pentagon official, who backs Donald Rumsfeld. That conversation is coming up this hour in THE SITUATION ROOM.
There are also some new developments this afternoon in the long- running CIA leak case. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, the indicted former aide to the vice president, Dick Cheney, squared off in court today with the prosecutors. And we learned more about the defense team's legal strategy when the perjury case goes to trial as scheduled in January.
Our chief national correspondent, John King, is covering the leak case from the courthouse here in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Scooter Libby, in the courtroom, said a brief hello as he went in, said he's doing quite well. We're beginning to learn a bit more about what case each side hopes to present when this case goes to trial before a jury in January.
Some new revelations today, most of them from the defense side. Scooter Libby's defense team making clear today that it has every intention of calling as a witness Karl Rove.
He, of course, is the president's top political advisor, the deputy White House chief of staff. Himself, still the subject of the investigation by the CIA leak grand jury that continues even as Mr. Libby prepares for his trial. That probably no surprise to the White House, but now officially on the record that the Libby defense plans to call Karl Rove as a witness.
It also said that it has five witnesses who will testify at the trial that Ambassador Joe Wilson was very open with them in saying that his wife worked at the CIA. Now, why is that important? One of the key allegations of the government's case against Mr. Libby is that he was involved, maybe at least tangentially, in a White House plot to out the identity of Valerie Plame, who was a classified CIA operative.
He's not charged with directly leaking that information, but the government says there was this White House campaign to discredit Mr. Wilson that at some point included leaking the name of his wife. The defense says it will show five -- from five witnesses that Joe Wilson was openly discussing this with people, how could it have been a secret that his wife worked at the CIA?
The defense repeatedly called Ambassador Wilson "a habitual liar," saying much of what he said in attacking the president's case for war, which, of course, started this whole dispute, was not true. And significantly, Wolf, the defense also said it will challenge the testimony of Mark Grossman.
He's a former undersecretary of state, a high-ranking State Department official. He is the person the government says told Scooter Libby that Valerie Plame worked at the CIA. The Libby defense team saying today that he has a long-standing relationship with Joe Wilson going back to college, that it believes some of the dates and events he has described are simply not factually correct, and it intends to challenge his credibility as well.
Much more discussed, Wolf, in the back and forth today. But this much is clear: these two sides are still having very contentious debates over what evidence the government has to turn over, and even the judge keeps saying he does not want to have a trial abut why we went to war in Iraq, and the prosecution says it wants to keep it narrowly focused on whether Mr. Libby lied to a federal grand jury as Mr. Libby faces the legal charges, we are going to have quite a spirited political debate in that courtroom, as well.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: That report from John King earlier here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
And we contacted the former U.S. ambassador, Joe Wilson, for his response. He says the case isn't about him, it's about whether Louis "Scooter" Libby lied.
And Wilson says this. Let me read it to you. "The special prosecutor believes several White House officials were engaged in a campaign to discredit, punish and seek revenge on me. It would appear that that campaign is ongoing."
Jack Cafferty is in New York with "The Cafferty File" once again.
Busy news day, Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: I was going to say, nothing like a slow Friday, right, in THE SITUATION ROOM?
There's another new poll out, another new low for President Bush. According to the latest AP-Ipsos poll, just 33 percent of the American public approves of the job he's doing. That's a new low for Mr. Bush in this particular poll. It gets worse.
Forty-five percent of those who describe themselves as conservatives say they disapprove of the president. Conservative voters blame the White House and Congress for runaway government spending, illegal immigration, and other issues.
And then there's this: if the congressional elections were held today, only 34 percent of those polled say they would want to see the Republicans retain control of the Congress. Fifty-one percent want to see the Democrats in control of Congress.
Here's the question, then: What does President Bush have to do to regain the support of 45 percent of conservatives?
E-mail us at caffertyfile@CNN.com or go to CNN.com/caffertyfile.
You know, if he's lost almost half the conservatives, he doesn't have much left -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Still has six months though to see if he can turn things around. We'll see what he can do over these six months, Jack. Thanks very much.
Up ahead, Congressman Patrick Kennedy says he has an addiction he cannot shake. And he doesn't remember a thing about that car crash. We're going to tell you about his bomb shell announcement and just what he plans to do next.
And offense and defense, a debate between the former CIA analyst who gave Donald Rumsfeld a piece of his mind, and one of the defense secretary's strongest supporters.
And bound by blood, separated by opinion. It's brother versus brother. One is a key Republican in Congress with a hard-line stance against illegal immigration, the other is a favorite of liberals, helping illegal immigrants. We're going to tell you about Hunter versus Hunter.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: We're tracking new developments on a bomb shell story concerning Congressman Patrick Kennedy. It centers on his recent crash, a stunning admission, and a bewildering loss of memory.
Our Brian Todd first broke the story here in THE SITUATION ROOM for us yesterday. He's now back with today's developments -- Brian.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, we're just a little bit more than 38 hours past the time that Congressman Patrick Kennedy, according to this police report, came swerving down this street, two or three times, right past where I'm standing, hit that barrier there where that black car is, at a slow speed, and then emerged with watery eyes and somewhat delirious.
Just a short time ago, Kennedy dramatically addressed the condition that led up to that accident.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REP. PATRICK KENNEDY (D), RHODE ISLAND: The incident on Wednesday evening concerns me gravely.
TODD (voice over): A contrite Congressman Patrick Kennedy speaks about addiction to prescription painkillers and says he will check into rehab.
As to the car accident...
KENNEDY: I simply do not remember getting out of bed, being pulled over by the police, or being cited for three driving infractions.
TODD: But CNN obtained this traffic accident report. Notice a box marked "sobriety," indicating Kennedy had been drinking. His ability was impaired. Under "contributing circumstances," officers cite speed, alcohol influence, driving on the wrong side of the street and driver inattention. Kennedy denies using alcohol.
The report also says Kennedy drove fast in a construction zone without lights, swerved three times, almost hit a police car, then hit a checkpoint barrier head on. The report lists Kennedy's eyes as red and watery, speech slightly slurred, and his balance unsure after exiting his green Ford Mustang.
Kennedy claims a prescribed anti-nausea medicine left him drowsy, as well as the sleeping pill Ambien.
KENNEDY: That's not an excuse for what happened Wednesday evening, but it is a reality of fighting a chronic condition for which I'm taking full responsibility.
TODD: A law enforcement source tells CNN police are checking Capitol Hill bars and restaurants for Kennedy's whereabouts before the accident. A Capitol Hill Police detective, tight-lipped after leaving the Hawk & Dove bar. Kennedy emphatically denying published reports that he was there.
STUART LONG, OWNER, HAWK & DOVE: I have one night manager who thinks he may have served him, but...
TODD: The Hawk & Dove owner tells a CNN affiliate the bar has no receipts from Kennedy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: Now, the Capitol Hill Police having their own very tough questions to answer this afternoon regarding their handling of this case. From our sources, and from a letter from a police union official to the acting chief, we know that the officers on the scene, the first responding officers, were not allowed to give Kennedy a sobriety test. They were ordered by superior officers to leave the scene. Kennedy was then driven home.
So, there are some allegations, there are some questions about whether he got preferential treatment in this case. The police department on Capitol Hill is conducting now two separate investigations, one into the accident itself, and an internal probe as to how they handled it -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Brian Todd doing some excellent reporting for us ahead of the curve.
Brian, thank you very much.
And our congressional correspondent, Dana Bash, is also doing some excellent reporting.
You've got some new information on this case, Dana?
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Wolf.
CNN has obtained a statement that has not yet been released but will be made public soon by the Capitol Police chief, the chief of the U.S. Capitol Police, Christopher McGaffen (ph). It is initial review about the case that Brian was just talking about, of course, about the investigation into -- internal investigation into the Patrick Kennedy accident. And here's what it says.
It says, "Upon review, it has been determined that in the initial stages, supervisors employed improper judgment. Corrective administrative and personnel action has been taken."
Now, that statement is a bit vague as to who has been disciplined, but separately, a top congressional source tells us -- the source, I should say, who has talked to the chief -- tells us that the watch commander that night, in the early morning hours of Wednesday night, Thursday morning, the lieutenant in charge who ordered the sergeant to take Patrick Kennedy away, take him home, has been reassigned. That we are told separately by a top congressional source.
Now, the statement that we obtained was not specific about who was reassigned. And there could be others perhaps who were reassigned or disciplined in separate ways. We do not know that.
But what we do know is that this statement going out to congressional sources here, it will be made public at some point. But CNN has obtained it early, and it says that the initial stages determine that supervisors employed improper judgment on the scene, and that corrective administrative and personnel action has been taken -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. Dana, thanks very much.
Dana Bash on the Hill.
Our Internet reporters, Abbi Tatton, has that police report. She also has another report that details Congressman Kennedy's involvement in a traffic incident only three weeks ago.
Abbi, what are you seeing?
ABBI TATTON, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Wolf, we've posted both of these online so you can read for yourself.
This is the one from the incident this week in Washington. The incident that Congressman Kennedy says he simply does not remember.
Officers describing the congressman's eyes were red, that he was swerving in the car before the collision. Afterwards, his speech was slightly slurred, and he was unsure on his balance.
Also, checked there, the box that says alcohol influence, hard to read, but it is there in the report. Congressman Kennedy saying yesterday that he did not consume alcohol.
Another police report, this one from three weeks ago from Portsmouth, Rhode Island. This also involving Patrick Kennedy in a traffic accident, a minor accident, according to his office.
This has a diagram of a car that Kennedy was driving. It's this one here, turning into a pharmacy. This car here was unable to stop in time and hit Patrick Kennedy's car.
As I said, we spoke to the office, they gave us a statement that this was a minor accident and not related to his condition. We've posted this and the other traffic incident report at cnn.com/situationreport.
Also, there is a letter from Congressman Kennedy's doctor confirming the medication that the congressman was on -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Abbi, thank you for that.
Coming up, he accused Donald Rumsfeld of being a liar. That was yesterday. Today, that former CIA analyst will defend his position. Ray McGovern will be here in THE SITUATION ROOM to debate a very strong supporter of the defense secretary and his policies.
And the former prime minister of Israel. What does Benjamin Netanyahu think about the Iranian president's call for Israel to be destroyed? Benjamin Netanyahu standing by live. My one-on-one interview with him, that's coming up here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's bring back Fredricka Whitfield from the CNN Center with a quick look at some other news.
Hi, Fred.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks again, Wolf.
Britain has a new foreign secretary. Jack Straw has been demoted to leader of the House of Commons. His replacement, Environment Minister Margaret Beckett.
Prime Minister Tony Blair reshuffled his cabinet after his Labour party was badly defeated by conservatives in regional elections yesterday. He fired his law and order chief, Home Secretary Charles Clark. Mr. Blair's not expected to step down despite some calls for his resignation.
Sudan's government and a main rebel faction are moving closer to ending Darfur's devastating humanitarian crisis. Today, they signed an internationally-backed peace plan in Nigeria.
Another rebel group rejected the agreement, while a third faction is split. Fighting in Darfur, in western Sudan, has killed almost 200,000 people since 2003, and forced two million others to flee.
A second autopsy on a Florida teenager who died after boot camp guards kicked and punched him indicates he died of suffocation. The report by a medical examiner says the guards blocked 14-year-old Martin Lee Anderson's mouth with their hands, causing him to suffocate when he breathed in ammonia fumes. State prosecutors are investigating Anderson's death now -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Fred, thank you for that.
Coming up in THE SITUATION ROOM, for and against Donald Rumsfeld. We'll hear from members of both camps, including that former CIA analyst who went face to face with Rumsfeld yesterday. And brothers up in arms. We'll tell you about those two siblings with very different opinions about illegal immigration. But they're not just ordinary brothers. One is a key member of the U.S. Congress.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
And we're going to get back to our top story, the sudden and still mysterious resignation of the CIA director, Porter Goss. It's another blow to the Bush administration's national security team. And it comes as the defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, takes heat for the war in Iraq, including an extraordinary showdown during a speech yesterday.
The former CIA analyst Ray McGovern confronted Rumsfeld during that speech, accusing the administration and the secretary of defense specifically about -- of lying about the war. He's joining us now from Atlanta. And here in Washington is the former Pentagon official, Frank Gaffney, who's a supporter of the defense secretary and the policy involving the war.
Gentlemen, thanks to both of you for coming in.
Let me play -- well, actually, before we do that, I want to get both of your reactions to Porter Goss's sudden announcement today that he's resigning.
Ray McGovern, let me start with you.
What do you make of that?
RAY MCGOVERN, FORMER CIA ANALYST: Well, he was never the man for the job. We don't need a partisan politician leading the intelligence establishment.
He also had found it a very difficult job. You know, he was used to going down to Florida on Thursday, coming back on Tuesday, and he himself admitted that it was a little too much for him.
So I think it's good that he's left and I would say good riddance.
FRANK GAFFNEY, CENTER FOR SECURITY POLICY: What do you think, Frank?
GAFFNEY: I think he's an able man and I think he confronted some of the kinds of partisan intelligence operatives that we saw Mr. McGovern exhibiting yesterday. And, more to the point, I think he confronted an entirely impossible bureaucratic situation shortly after he arrived, having a new guy put in as the director of national intelligence, who quickly set about trying to eviscerate many of the functions of the director of Central Intelligence. I'm surprised he stayed as long as he did, to be honest. BLITZER: All right, let's move on and talk about your exchange, Mr. McGovern, yesterday with Donald Rumsfeld.
Let me play a little clip of that. We've seen it, but let's just listen to this exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: It appears that there were not weapons of mass destruction there.
MCGOVERN: You said you knew where they were.
RUMSFELD: I did not. I said I knew where suspect sites were...
MCGOVERN: You said...
RUMSFELD: ... and we were -- just let...
MCGOVERN: You said you knew where they were, near Tikrit, near Baghdad and northeast, south and west of there. Those are your words.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: And we did check and those were, in fact, his words, as you precisely pointed out.
I'll play that little clip from what Rumsfeld said on "This Week With George Stephanopoulos."
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, MARCH 30, 2003, COURTESY ABC)
RUMSFELD: We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: But Mr. McGovern, if that's what the CIA told him, if that's what George Tenet told him, we know where they are, and George Tenet is quoted by Bob Woodward as saying that this was a slam dunk, the weapons of mass destruction, if that's what Donald Rumsfeld and the president were told, they weren't necessarily lying, they were relying on bad information.
MCGOVERN: Well, that's QED, Wolf. That's what needs to be demonstrated. As you know, Secretary Rumsfeld set up his own little CIA within the Pentagon. It's there that he got this wonderful information about the procession of weapons of mass destruction. It wasn't from the CIA.
And I'd like to quote Hans Blix, who said that is what's very odd that there was 100 percent certitude that there were weapons of mass destruction and zero percent certitude about where they were. Only Donald Rumsfeld claimed that he knew where they were.
BLITZER: All right, Frank, what do you think?
GAFFNEY: Well, I think QED may be lost on most people. I think what you just said is exactly right. Donald Rumsfeld did not have his own intelligence operation. He had people who were going through intelligence that had been provided by the CIA and other collectors.
And, by the way, that was the shop that identified hundreds of links between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's regime, not operational but suggestive of cooperation, something that Mr. McGovern yesterday said was a lie.
He also, I think, did rely entirely upon the Defense Intelligence Agency, the CIA and others for information about the status of Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction, as best we know it.
And here's the point, Lou -- I have to say, Wolf. We understand very little about closed societies. We do the best we can to penetrate them, to understand them. We had no agents on the ground, apparently, in Iraq.
But what I think Donald Rumsfeld said at the time could have been completely correct and, as we now have increasing evidence, what happened subsequently was Saddam Hussein moved stuff across the border into Syria.
BLITZER: Well, let me ask Mr. McGovern...
GAFFNEY: That's...
BLITZER: ... if he believes that.
GAFFNEY: That's not a lie by any stretch of the imagination.
BLITZER: You spent a career in the CIA, including briefing presidents, including this president's father. You were one of his daily briefers.
What do you say to Frank Gaffney?
MCGOVERN: Well, I say that our country invests billions and billions of dollars every year into the most sophisticated imagery, satellites and intercept satellites one can imagine. And the difference, the sea change since 1996 is that Donald Rumsfeld controls the imagery and the analysis of that imagery.
And so in the old days, if one of these reporters or one of these emigres said there's a chemical weapons factory here at Point X, we would have a photograph of that and we would say don't pay this source anymore, he doesn't know what he's talking about.
Rumsfeld controlled that whole thing. And so if he wanted to make the case that there were weapons of mass destruction, there was nothing to disprove it because he controlled not only the collection mechanisms, but the analysis of the imagery, which is a sea change from the way it used to be prior to 1996.
BLITZER: Mr. McGovern, when you said yesterday that the defense secretary lied, do you want to revise that in any way or are you standing by that?
MCGOVERN: Well, I was talking about two things. One was the conflation of Iraq, Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda. This was a deliberate misrepresentation. The CIA found no evidence that there were any operational ties between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda. And the whole effort was meant to deceive the American people into thinking that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11, and they succeeded, because 69 percent of the American people during the war thought that Saddam Hussein did, indeed, have something to do with 9/11.
So that was the -- that was the egregious lie.
And what Paul Pillar, my former colleague who retired just at the end of last year, the senior intelligence officer on the Middle East, what he said the day before was very telling. He said the administration expended great effort in trying to prove this. And, of course, there was no evidence to prove it. And when Don Rumsfeld said that...
GAFFNEY: Can I have a word, please?
BLITZER: All right.
MCGOVERN: ... when Donald Rumsfeld said that the evidence was bulletproof and Scowcroft was saying that it was scant, they were both wrong. There was no evidence.
BLITZER: All right, we got -- we're out of time, Frank.
I'll give you a few seconds to wrap it up.
Go ahead.
GAFFNEY: I'd appreciate a measure of equal time.
You had the director of Central Intelligence who had access to overhead information just as before. The information is not sufficient when things are hidden and buried underground and otherwise concealed.
What I believe Donald Rumsfeld and the president were doing, in good faith, was taking the best information available against the backdrop of terrorists and their ambition to do great harm to this country, to act prophylactically to protect us against further attack.
I think, in hindsight, and with the advantage of what we're going to find out more and more and more about of what Saddam Hussein did with those weapons of mass destruction and what was his relationship with these al Qaeda operatives, maybe we're not going to be persuaded that it's operational, but it certainly was cooperative. And that, I believe, was sufficient grounds for acting as the president did. BLITZER: All right, Frank Gaffney and Ray McGovern, a good discussion.
Thanks to both of you.
MCGOVERN: Thank you, Wolf.
GAFFNEY: Thank you.
BLITZER: We'll continue it down the road.
Still to come, Iran says it will strike Israel if the U.S. moves against its nuclear program. Is Israel at risk? I'll ask the former prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. He's standing by.
And Congressman Patrick Kennedy says he's heading back into rehab for substance abuse after his Capitol Hill car crash. Did police handle the situation right way? Much more on that coming up in our 7:00 p.m. Eastern hour.
You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
Five Palestinian militants were killed today in an Israeli air strike. Palestinian sources and the Israeli military say the target was a Gaza training camp used by a group which had been firing rockets into Israel.
Israelis may see a much greater threat, though, from Iran right now, which has threatened to attack Israel if the United States makes a move against its nuclear program.
Joining us from New York right now is the former Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu.
He's now in the opposition in the Israeli Knesset.
Prime Minister, thanks for joining us.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the president of Iran, has flatly said, and I'll quote him, he said: "Israel must be wiped out from the map of the world and, god willing, with the force of god behind it, we shall soon experience a world without the United States and Zionism."
How seriously do you take these threats emanating from Iran?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Very seriously.
I read, recently, an interview with a Holocaust survivor in one of the European papers. And the interviewer asked him what's your main lesson from the Holocaust? And he said my main lesson is, is that when somebody tells you that he's going to exterminate you, believe him.
Now, I believe the intentions of the president of Iran, when he says he intends to wipe Israel off the map of the Earth. But I also know that it's not just Israel that he's threatening, but the entire free world.
Hitler threatened the Jews. Indeed, he was an enormous threat. And, it turned out, an enormous catastrophe for the Jews. But he turned out to be a catastrophe for the entire world. And I think Mr. Olmert, the current prime minister of Israel, was right when he called Ahmadinejad a latter day Hitler, because they share the same fanaticism and the same -- the same mentality.
But if they -- if this regime will be armed with nuclear weapons, then the danger for the entire world will be enormous.
BLITZER: So what -- what -- at what point does Israel take a unilateral preemptive strike against Iran along the lines of what you did in 1981 against the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak?
Is that even in the cards?
NETANYAHU: The difference between the 1981 and today is that at the time, Israel was alone, and, indeed, was, believe it or not, castigated by the international community for wiping out Saddam Hussein's nuclear bomb factory before it became operative.
Today, that is not the case. I think there is a great awareness in Washington and the United States, and, indeed, around many capitals, that the arming of Iran with atomic bombs would endanger the entire world, would endanger not only Middle Eastern peace, but, you know, if people are worried about the oil prices today, wait until Iran has a nuclear umbrella from which it could carry out its designs to capture the Arabian Peninsula. That would really push oil prices high.
So I think there is an awareness and there's an American-led international action. And I think everybody who's -- who wants to see peace in the world, everybody who wants to have sanity rule the world, would support this American-led international effort.
And, by the way, it would not necessarily be a military confrontation, because it might not be necessary. If the world, the free world unites around this American initiative, you probably won't have to use force because Iran would back off.
BLITZER: So the notion of an Israeli military strike, that's not in the cards, at least not now?
NETANYAHU: I think we all support the United States's effort and I think that Israel is a very strong country. And Israel has known in the past and will know in the future how to defend itself. But we would all prefer to see a solution, if possible, a peaceful solution, led by the American pressure on Iran to disarm or to discontinue its nuclear program. BLITZER: You've spent a lot of time worrying about terror attacks against Israel. Osama bin Laden, in that April 23rd audiotape that came out, he said this. He said: "The blockade which the West is imposing on the government of Hamas proves that there is a Zionist crusader's war on Islam."
How worried are you specifically about al Qaeda threats against Israel, as opposed to Hamas or Hezbollah?
NETANYAHU: Well, I'm worried and I've spoken about it for quite some time. I'm worried that al Qaeda will penetrate our good night. It already has begun-to do so in Jordan, in the Sinai and elsewhere -- in the Egyptian Sinai. It seeks to establish and has established cells in Gaza. Yes, al Qaeda could out-Hamas Hamas. That's the problem with these madmen -- they each vie to be more extreme, more violent than the others. They all want to get rid of Israel, but merely because Israel is an extension of the free Western civilization that the United States is leading. They see us as an extension of the U.S. And in this sense, they're right.
But there's no reason why, when they attack every other Western position, that they will not seek to attack Israel and perhaps the greatest nightmare is that they will be able to bring the shoulder- fired missiles that they have already tried to use against an Israeli aircraft in Mombasa in Africa, against our civilian aircraft.
BLITZER: Why did the Israeli people reject you and the Likud in favor of Ehud Olmert and his party, the Kadima Party?
NETANYAHU: Well, I think there were a variety of factors.
First of all, I think we -- there was a loss of constituents because of my very forceful economic reforms. They brought the country tremendous growth, tripled the stock market and brought us from a minus 1 percent contraction of the economy to over 5 percent growth in a very short time.
But we had to take away a lot of welfare allowances. A lot of people who enjoyed these welfare allowances were not happy giving them up, because I said if you can work, go to work. That didn't make me too popular. And, by the way, I haven't changed my view. So we lost votes there. And I think also because the warnings that I've had about Hamas did not materialize before the elections and let me tell you, I hope they never materialize, but I suspect, I'm afraid that they will.
BLITZER: Benjamin Netanyahu is the former prime minister of Israel. He's now a leader in the opposition in the Knesset.
As usual, Mr. Prime Minister, thanks for joining us.
NETANYAHU: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Lou Dobbs is getting ready for his program, that begins right at the top of the hour.
He's standing by to tell us what he's working on -- Lou.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, thank you very much.
Coming up at 6:00 Eastern here on CNN, we will be reporting on the sudden resignation of CIA Director Porter Goss. Why did Goss resign now? Why so abruptly? Why didn't the White House have a replacement ready?
We'll have that special report.
Also, federal government efforts to coordinate the hunt for terrorists and criminals alike are being slowed by one of the biggest federal government agencies. We'll have that special report.
Also tonight, approval ratings for President Bush and Congress are plummeting. Three top political analysts join me tonight. We'll also examine whether President Bush can learn any lessons from another president 70 years ago, President Franklin Roosevelt. I'll be joined by "Newsweek" columnist and author Jonathan Alter.
Stay with us for all of that and a great deal more, coming up at the top of the hour here on CNN.
Wolf -- back to you.
BLITZER: It sounds like a full hour, indeed, Lou.
Thanks very much.
Up ahead, is blood thicker than a difference of opinion?
Right now, one powerful Republican in Congress is battling with his own brother over how best to solve the problem of illegal immigration.
And it appears President Bush is losing support among his most ardent supporters? What does he need to do to get that support back?
Jack Cafferty has your e-mail.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: It's Cinco-de Mayo, a day of celebration for Mexicans around the world.
It came at a time when immigration is a hotly debated issue here in the United States. One family has strong feelings on both sides of the issue.
And is blood thicker than a difference of opinion? Right now the bond of two brothers is being stretched thin because of a very profound difference over immigration reform.
CNN's Chris Lawrence is in Los Angeles. he's joining us now with the details -- Chris, what's going on?
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, lots of brothers don't see eye to eye on politics. But in this case one brother is in a position where the legislation he helped write could make his own brother guilty of a crime.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
LAWRENCE (voice-over): Two brothers separated by 2,000 miles and their opinions on illegal immigration.
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), CALIFORNIA: It's a national security issue.
LAWRENCE: Congressman Duncan Hunter is in Washington, supporting a bill that would make it a crime to help illegal immigrants.
JOHN HUNTER: My wife and I talked about it a little bit and we said we'd break the law, if it came down to it.
LAWRENCE: His brother John is on the Mexican border.
J. HUNTER: Here we go. Let's put some water in there, guys.
LAWRENCE: Helping illegal immigrants. John builds water stations in the California desert to help thirsty migrants who cross the border in between a giant fence Duncan wants to expand.
D. HUNTER: You have to have a border. And to have a border, you have to have an impediment.
LAWRENCE: Duncan Hunter refused to support John's plan to build cell phone towers so stranded migrants could call for help. But he did help John get official permits for those water stations.
J. HUNTER: No, he's really a great brother.
LAWRENCE: And they actually agree that an open border makes no sense.
D. HUNTER: On the other hand, I don't think they should die. The penalty for wanting an $8 an hour job shouldn't be death.
LAWRENCE: John shows us a cemetery and the graves of unidentified migrants who died crossing the border illegally. John blames immigration policies, not people, especially Duncan.
J. HUNTER: In fact, Duncan's one of the few guys I really, really admire in the political arena. I really admire him.
LAWRENCE: Even when they end up literally on opposite sides of the fence.
(END VIDEO TAPE) LAWRENCE: In fact, John says they probably agree on 90 percent of whatever they're talking about. It's this one issue that divides them the same way it's split the rest of the country -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Chris, interesting story.
Thanks for bringing it to us.
Up next, President Bush has a big job ahead of him before the November elections and Jack Cafferty is coming up with your recommendations on what the president should do to win back his base.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: We're just getting this in from our chief national correspondent, John King.
He's now reporting that a decision has been made on a successor to Porter Goss as the CIA director. A senior official familiar with the discussions tells John that the decision will be announced early next week, probably Monday or Tuesday. No word yet on who that person is going to be, but the president apparently has made up his mind on his new CIA director. That person will be nominated. He'll have to go through a confirmation process.
Jack Cafferty needs no confirmation process. He's already been confirmed.
CAFFERTY: Well, thank you.
That's nice to know.
According to the latest A.P./Ipsos poll, just 33 percent of the American public approves of the job President Bush is doing. That's a new low for him in that poll. But more ominously, perhaps, 45 percent of those who describe themselves as conservatives say they disapprove of this president.
So the question we asked is what does the president have to do to regain the support of those 45 percent of conservatives.
Karen in Hart, Michigan writes: "I don't think the conservatives are the problem. It's the population in general. Bush is going to have to show strong, credible leadership, and fast, to regain any kind of confidence he may have once had. I'm a moderate Republican and would like to see the Republican leadership speak to my segment for a change."
Stanley in Faribault, Minnesota: "Jack, if President Bush would stand up to big oil the way President Kennedy stood up to big steel, I think you'd see him regaining in the polls."
Travis writes: "To win the Republican Party back, he needs to stop this idiotic idea of guest worker programs and get tougher on the border problems. Guest worker programs are nothing short of amnesty. This is from someone who voted for him both times."
Steve in Roanoke, Virginia: "I think the bigger story is congressional approval ratings are lower than W.'s. Why are you not reporting this story? It's just more Bush bashing.
Bob in Plantation, Florida: "What should Bush do to win back the 45 percent of the conservatives? Next Friday is still available for him to resign and them Rumsfeld would have to wait until Memorial Day."
And Britt in Nashville, Tennessee writes: "Capture bin Laden."
This weekend on "IN THE MONEY," pork is actually becoming the enemy of the incumbents this election year.
And is taking sodas out of the public schools an effective way to knock a few pounds off the nation's fat little children?
Join us Saturday at 1:00, Sunday at 3:00, for "IN THE MONEY" on a CNN station in your neighborhood -- Wolf.
BLITZER: That would be this one right here exactly where our viewers are.
CAFFERTY: There you go.
BLITZER: Jack, back in one hour.
We're here in THE SITUATION ROOM weekday afternoons 4:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. Eastern and back at 7:00 p.m. Eastern, just an hour from now.
Lots more news coming up at that time.
Until then, thanks very much for joining us.
I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.
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