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The Situation Room
Four U.N. Observers Killed in Israeli Airstrike; Israel Takes Control of Key Hezbollah Stronghold in Lebanon; U.S. Diplomatic Plan for end to Mideast Conflict; Four United Nations Observers Killed in Lebanon; Democrats Want to Stop Iraqi Prime Minister from Addressing Congress; Shimon Peres Interview
Aired July 25, 2006 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: And to our viewers, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time.
Standing by, CNN reporters across the United States and around the world, especially here in the Middle East, ready to bring you today's top stories.
Happening right now, Israel and Hezbollah ratcheting up the fierce fighting and the fiery rhetoric. Israel says its forces fought house to house in Southern Lebanon to win control of a key Hezbollah stronghold, and Hezbollah continuing raining rockets on northern Israel.
Meanwhile, Israel's vice premier, Shimon Peres, says it's a war of life or death. My exclusive interview with Shimon Perez coming up this hour.
And regarding Israel's continued clashes with Palestinian militants, I'll speak with the chief Palestinian negotiator, Saeb Erakat. He's here in Jerusalem.
Meanwhile, the secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, met with Israeli and Palestinian leaders today. She's hoping for a lasting cease-fire, and she's said to be pitching a plan of forces to try to stabilize Lebanon.
I'm Wolf Blitzer. And you're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Critical new developments unfolding in the crisis in the Middle East right now, as Hezbollah and Israel mark two weeks of warfare today that's put the world on edge. With bombs falling on Beirut's southern suburbs, a senior Hezbollah leader is quoted by The Associated Press as saying his group never anticipated Israel would respond with such force to the kidnapping of two of its soldiers.
Meanwhile, Israeli defense forces say they've taken control of a key Hezbollah stronghold in Southern Lebanon, the town of Bint Jbeil, in a battle that killed as many as 30 Hezbollah guerillas, according to the Israelis.
At the same time, more Hezbollah rockets struck northern Israel today. Officials say a 15-year-old Israeli girl was killed, one man died of a heart attack, and at least 18 other Israelis were injured.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is in Rome right now. She's discussing the crisis with European leaders and pushing a U.S. plan which Lebanese sources say calls for thousands of international troops to come to Southern Lebanon. The State Department says it's wrapping up sea evacuations of Americans in Lebanon with the last boat scheduled to leave tomorrow.
We're covering all aspects of this crisis in the Middle East.
Listen to this.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
BLITZER: Let's go immediately to our Beirut bureau chief, Brent Sadler. There's breaking news unfolding -- Brent.
BRENT SADLER, CNN BEIRUT BUREAU CHIEF: Yes. Got confirmation by U.N. officials here in Lebanon, Wolf, that an observer group, some four soldiers highly likely from a European nation or nations, according to U.N. officials, was struck, they claim, by an Israeli airstrike during fighting in south Lebanon earlier today. This is part of the observer group in Lebanon. It comes under the command of UNIFIL.
There are just over 50 members of that observer group, Lebanon organization. One of their observation posts hit, it's claimed, by the Israelis during fighting today. Casualties at that observation post, an attempt to recover those casualties ongoing -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Brent, this has been a very, very violent day in Beirut after a couple of days of lull, in terms of Israeli airstrikes in the southern part of the city, where Hezbollah is congregated, or at least supporters of Hezbollah. It returned with a fury earlier today.
What's been the reaction?
SADLER: It did, indeed, Wolf. It coincided with the departure of U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to Italy for those crucial talks on the crisis here.
Earlier this day, the Lebanese capital shook to the thunderous sound of explosions. Again, the Israeli air force attacking targets in Hezbollah's stronghold, their home base in the southern suburbs of Beirut, hitting the areas that have been consistently attacked and heavily destroyed during the past two weeks of fighting.
Also this day, the southern port city of Tyre, where Hezbollah Katyusha rockets have been fired into Israel, that was also subjected to a series of further air raids this day. At the same time, in the south of Lebanon, the Israelis claim to have captured a strategically important for Hezbollah stronghold of Bint Jbeil.
Bint Jbeil, Wolf, critically important, because that area gives the Israelis the opportunity of being able to seize high ground that will enable long-range artillery to be able to push and hit Hezbollah targets to an even greater degree than that we've already seen, at least on the ground -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Brent, the Reuters news agency now quoting sources as saying four of those United Nations observers in Southern Lebanon have been killed in that airstrike today. UNIFIL, the United Nations interim force in Lebanon, has been there since, what, back in 1978 or so. Its mandate scheduled to end at the end of this month.
They're trying to put together a new force to go in. Something more robust. But it's a significant development, if in fact this Reuters report is accurate.
We're also getting word, Brent, that some sort of statement might be coming forward shortly on the Al Manar television network, the Hezbollah TV network, from the leader of Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah.
What are you hearing about that in Beirut?
SADLER: Well, first of all, Wolf, no official confirmation of those deaths. But given the amount of damage -- because, according to U.N. officials here, the observation post took a direct hit. This after a day in which that observation point had been very close to a number of detonations. And some 70 percent of that observer group force is made up of European nations, so highly likely, according to officials on the ground, that Europeans may have sustained those casualties.
On the issue of Hezbollah's leader, Hassan Nasrallah, Al Manar TV, still broadcasting here in Lebanon, says that a statement from Nasrallah is expected to be broadcast soon. We've already heard earlier today that a senior member of Hezbollah has been saying that they did not expect Israel to launch this sort of military reaction to the kidnapping of those two Israeli soldiers two weeks ago.
However, some Lebanese officials not in Hezbollah's camp say quite clearly that will be an attempt, if this comes up in Nasrallah's speech, to try and push Hezbollah away from the kind of fierce domestic criticism that has been leveled against Hezbollah in some political quarters here for the amount of devastation that's now being inflicted on Lebanon as a result of that initial action by Hezbollah two weeks ago -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Brent Sadler on the scene for us in Beirut.
Brent, thank you very much.
Let's head south to northern Israel, where Israeli army commanders say they've taken control of a key Hezbollah stronghold in Southern Lebanon.
Our senior national correspondent, John Roberts, is on the scene for us along the border with the latest -- John.
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN SR. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: General Gal Hirsch, the commander of the Galilee division of the Israeli defense forces, making that announcement a little earlier on this afternoon, Wolf, telling me that he would characterize the fighting as very intense, very personal, hand to hand, in some cases going house to house. He said Hezbollah was a well dug-in militia, one that was well-funded, well-supported, and well-trained, and the fighting was very difficult.
The IDF also reporting some pretty significant news late this evening here in Israel, 5:00 in the afternoon there in the Eastern Time Zone, saying that it has killed a senior Hezbollah military commander in Southern Lebanon, Abu Jaafar, who was said to be by the Israeli defense forces the commander of Hezbollah's central sector along the border with Lebanon.
So Israel claiming some victory against Hezbollah tonight.
The fighting for Bint Jbeil went on for some 48 hours, perhaps a little longer than that. And they're still trying to clear out some positions there.
The IDF is hoping that by taking that town they can degrade Hezbollah's command and control capabilities and their ability to fire those Katyusha rockets into northern Israel. However, it didn't seem to diminish it too much today. We have a new total of Katyushas fired for you, 96 now.
I spent some time up along the border with the Israeli troops as they were going back and forth between Israel and Lebanon. They had come back to get refueled. They would fuel up, they'd get a little bit of rest, and then they'd head back in.
I tried to ask a few of them on camera how they were feeling about the way that the battle was going. They wouldn't tell you on camera. They're not authorized to talk without one of their senior commanders telling them that they can.
But privately, they'll tell you that, yes, the fighting was pretty tough. One fellow said to me, "Well, what do you think it was like over there?" Sort of leaving it for me to imagine what it would be like to fight in those close quarters that they were in Bint Jbeil.
Also, Wolf, even though they have command of these towns, control of these towns, as they have said, it doesn't mean that the danger is down. There was a mortar attack on a position that we were in today. One mortar dropped about 20 yards away from where we were, right at the foot of an Israeli soldier. And luckily for him it was a dud.
Also, more Katyusha rockets coming in. You're looking at pictures from Kiryat Shmona. Our photographer Avi (ph), on his way down to the border to meet us, was taking some pictures of brushfires that had been ignited by those Katyushas and saw three of them come in, in rapid succession.
So, Wolf, even though the IDF claiming to make some progress against Hezbollah positions, and now having control of two towns, Maroun al-Ras and Bint Jbeil, they are saying that there is still a lot of work yet to be done. Hezbollah still remains a very vital fighting militia -- Wolf. BLITZER: John, as we're speaking, CNN has now confirmed, according to Lebanese sources, that four United Nations observers were killed in this Israeli airstrike earlier today, apparently a direct hit on where they were staying in one observation post. We're getting some more information coming in.
You've been speaking with Israeli commanders on the scene over these past several days as they launched their artillery into south Lebanon. What do they say to you about the precautions they take to try to avoid what apparently has just happened, the killing of innocent people, people have nothing to do directly with Hezbollah?
ROBERTS: Well, I asked General Hirsch that very question, Wolf. I said, "Why did the campaign to take Maroun al-Ras and Bint Jbeil take so long?" And he said, "It takes so long because Hezbollah is well dug in and that the IDF is trying to take all precautions to prevent loss of innocent civilian life."
But it's obvious, Wolf, that when you're in a war, there is going to be what the military so dispassionately calls "collateral damage." Hirsch said, "We don't go in there and destroy entire towns and villages, as has happened in past wars. We try to be very careful."
But it's obvious, Wolf, that as careful as the saying they're trying to be, I don't want to say that they're not careful enough, but they are going to take casualties who are not combatants.
BLITZER: And we don't know the nationality of those four United Nations observers apparently killed in this Israeli air raid. We're working this story. We'll get more information for you as it unfolds.
Does it look, John, like it's going to be a long night, a lot of pounding going on? Or do they take a break? Do they take a lull to get some sleep?
ROBERTS: Wolf, it's always a long night. There's always a lot of pounding.
These crews tend to go in rotations of a couple of hours on, a couple of hours off over the night. There are many artillery pieces here. Without giving away the exact number, there are a number of crews who can be down for a couple of hours while the other ones are up and firing.
Typically, what we tend to get is a volley of firing that lasts about five or 10 minutes. You can hear it behind me, the gun behind me has just started up its engine, which means that it's going into a firing cycle.
They'll then go down for about 10, 15 minutes or so, and then they'll ramp it back up again. So, if you want, Wolf, come back to us in a couple of minutes. I'm sure it will be noisy here again.
BLITZER: All right. Be careful over there, John.
Thank you very much. John Roberts on the scene for us, doing an excellent job covering this story, as are all of our reporters are doing an excellent job covering this story.
Jack Cafferty is in New York. He's got "The Cafferty File."
Jack, what's up this hour?
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Well, we're going to talk about Iraq a little bit, Wolf.
The United States has agreed to put more of our troops into Baghdad. In a meeting today with the Iraqi prime minister, President Bush said this will partly involve moving troops from other parts of Iraq to the capital city.
Three and a half years after the invasion of Iraq, sectarian violence is raging. A hundred people a day are being killed. And the Iraqi government, such as it is, appears to be powerless to do anything about it.
A United States Marine goes through basic training in 13 weeks. And at the end of that time he's ready to fight. And he's expected to be pretty good at it, and he is.
It's not unreasonable to expect that after three and a half years, Iraq should be able to start doing the fighting. When does it end, 30 years, 300 years? It's ridiculous.
And what's even more ridiculous is the willingness of the U.S. to go along with this nonsense. The sectarian violence that's taking 100 lives a day in Iraq has been going on for hundreds of years, only now it's taking American lives, too. For how much longer?
Here is the question: Should the U.S. send more troops to Baghdad?
E-mail your thoughts to CaffertyFile@CNN.com or go to CNN.com/CaffertyFile -- Wolf.
BLITZER: I wonder if we could get the numbers, Jack. I know here in the Middle East over the past two weeks, what, 400 or 500 Israelis and Lebanese have died in the fighting that's been going on between Israel and Hezbollah.
I wonder over the past two weeks how many Iraqis have died during this same period. Maybe we can check those numbers and bring them to our viewers later this hour.
Jack Cafferty, thank you.
Up ahead, we're following two breaking stories out of the Middle East. Lebanese sources now telling CNN that Israel today struck a United Nations post in Lebanon, killed four U.N. observers. That would be in Southern Lebanon. Also, the Israel defense forces saying they have killed a senior Hezbollah commander in south Lebanon. We're watching both of these stories.
We'll get much more for you. That's coming up.
Also, Israel's vice premier says it's nothing less than a battle for survival, calling it a war of life and death. My exclusive interview with Shimon Peres here in Jerusalem, that's coming up.
And there are also some new developments in another bitter battle. Israel and Palestinian militants fighting, clashing in Gaza. Regarding that fight, I'll speak with the chief Palestinian negotiator, Saeb Erakat.
I'm Wolf Blitzer. We're live here in Jerusalem and you're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting live tonight from Jerusalem.
We're following two breaks stories in the Middle East crisis tonight. Lebanese sources telling CNN Israel today struck a U.N. post in Southern Lebanon and killed four U.N. observers. Also, the IDF, the Israel defense forces, saying they've killed a senior Hezbollah commander.
Meanwhile, the secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, in Rome tonight, where she'll be meeting tomorrow with European leaders, Arab leaders to talk about the crisis here in the Middle East and the U.S. plan she's pitching to try to bring some sort of end to that fighting between Israel and Hezbollah.
Our chief national correspondent, John King, is covering the secretary's visit. He's in Rome with the latest -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And Wolf, it's a fascinating challenge for Secretary Rice. In fact, this is something she hasn't had to do that often in her short time as U.S. secretary of state, essentially get into a room with 12 other nations, more than 12 other nations, the United Nations representatives as well, and essentially try to broker a deal that would create some sort of a cease-fire in Lebanon.
But the United States is being very adamant resisting pressure from many around the world, including the Lebanese government, in saying it will not accept a cease-fire with Hezbollah, and then negotiate whether or not Hezbollah will disarm. Secretary Rice came here to Rome with her position being Hezbollah must disarm up front, agree to disarm up front, and that has to be part of any cease-fire deal.
Another very difficult challenge for Secretary Rice, trying to get world agreement on a new international peacekeeping force that would enter Southern Lebanon as part of any cease-fire deal. And again, a cease-fire deal is still a huge "if."
But while around the world there is support for such a force, there are a number of questions about just how powerful would it be? What would the rules of engagement be? And a number of nations saying, we support it but we can't take part. And the United States happens to be one of those nations, saying because of Iraq and other concerns it doesn't have the troops to put forward.
So a number of challenges for Secretary Rice. And she comes here to Rome fresh from stops in the Middle East. She was in Lebanon yesterday, Israel last night. Very sensitive conversations with the Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, earlier today, where the United States again reiterated its position that Israel has every right to continue its military response until Hezbollah disarms and agrees to stop any terror attacks on Israel.
And a reminder, too, Wolf, of the anti-American sentiment in the Arab world that adds a sense of urgency to these negotiations here in Rome. Secretary Rice made a brief stop in the Palestinian territories today. Demonstrators in the streets there chanting, "Death to Condi Rice! Death to the United States!"
So a huge challenge for Secretary Rice here in Rome. And while she says she comes here confident, Wolf, a number of very difficult questions, a difficult day of diplomacy ahead tomorrow.
BLITZER: We'll see what she can accomplish in these days ahead, John.
Thank you very much.
Coming up, Israel's response. My exclusive interview with the vice premier of Israel, Shimon Peres. We'll find out why he says Hezbollah has already been what he says is morally defeated.
And this note. Coming up in our 7:00 p.m. Eastern hour here in THE SITUATION ROOM, war through the eyes of a child. We're going to show you how many are struggling to cope.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: We're covering all of the latest developments in the crisis in the Middle East, what's happening in Lebanon in this war between Israel and Hezbollah. But there's another front in a war as well.
Israel continuing to fight another enemy. That would be Hamas. That conflict intensified exactly four weeks ago today when Palestinian militants kidnapped an Israeli soldier. That soldier is still missing.
Today, the secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, went to Ramallah on the West Bank to meet with the Palestinian authority president, Mahmoud Abbas and others.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And joining us now is the chief Palestinian negotiator, Saeb Erakat.
Mr. Erakat, thanks very much for coming in.
You were among the Palestinian delegation today that met with the secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice. Was anything accomplished there?
SAEB ERAKAT, CHIEF PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR: You know, the mere fact that Dr. Rice came to Ramallah is significant by itself. We -- you know and I know she's in the region because of the war in Lebanon and Israel. But the fact that she came to Ramallah, to tell President Abbas, we haven't forgotten you.
We have been witnessing in Gaza a forgotten zone. You know, six Palestinians were killed yesterday. The day before that, 16. And nobody notices.
And the fact that Dr. Rice decided to come to Ramallah today, and to say what she said to Abu Mazen about the core of the problem, trying to fight for President Bush's vision a two-state solution, was something by itself.
BLITZER: It's exactly today one month since that Israeli corporal, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped across the Gaza border. Is he likely to be returned to Israel any time soon?
ERAKAT: We hope so. Abu Mazen told the secretary today that he, the Egyptians and the government are exerting maximum effort, first in order to ensure his safety, and in order to get him back to his family.
And he reminded the secretary that we have 10,000 of our own kids in Israeli jails. Some have spent more than 30 years.
He did not specify exactly, but he noted some progress. But he did not -- he didn't want to specify exactly where we're going from here.
BLITZER: Let me read to you what the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations. Dan Gillerman, said yesterday. He said, "Iran and Syria are part of the world's most ominous access of terror and together with Hamas they support and harbor and finance, they actually are today one of the greatest threats towards stability and to engage them would be a horrible mistake."
Do you agree with that assessment?
ERAKAT: Look, I just want to say very frankly, in 1982, Israel went to war against Lebanon. Out of the labor pain, Hezbollah was born. In 1987, we had an Intifada, the Palestinians, and the Israeli army was trying to crush the Palestinian people. And out of these labor pains, Hamas was born.
Wolf, the question that I address to myself, and to Mr. Gillerman, and to all of those who may think will it be after, what will 2006 labor pains produce?
You know, when you have political solutions, you may call upon it as much as you want. Nations follow their interests, parties follow their interests. But you don't solve political problems with a military solution. You don't.
You don't add to the complexities. We know that at the end of the day as Palestinians we're separate from Lebanon. Not that we're not Arabs, that we don't feel sorry for what's going on in Lebanon, but, you know, Lebanon is their own country.
War, no war, tomorrow stabilization force, who will join, who will not join, these are issues that are being discussed the (INAUDIBLE), but we're under occupation.
So, as Palestinians, we're trying our best today to reach a full cessation of violence with Israel. All parties, including Hamas -- and that's what Abu Mazen, my president, is exerting maximum efforts now with all Palestinian parties to deliver a full cessation of violence between us and the Israelis. And I hope he can succeed.
BLITZER: Is there an alliance between Hamas and Hezbollah that runs through Syria and Iran?
ERAKAT: I don't think so. And unless -- I cannot tell you that I know or don't know.
BLITZER: Because the Israelis say that the Iranians, the Syrians, they provide funding to Hamas, and clearly they provide funding and material to Hezbollah.
ERAKAT: Well, look, I know the variables of interaction in this region. I know the complexities facing some Arab countries and the United States from Iran's nuclear program. I know what's going on in Syria. And I know what's going on in Saudi Arabia, in Egypt, in Jordan.
Obviously, for me, as a Palestinian, Wolf, all I'm saying, not in my name. You know, bin Laden fights a war in Afghanistan against the Soviets for 20 years, we are not mentioned. All of a sudden, he's not on good terms with those who financed him and built him. Then Palestine became his issue.
Somebody put a bomb in Bali. And then you hear the term "Palestine." Somebody put a bomb in Morocco, and -- all I want as a Palestinian, OK, I know that if you want to speak about a new Middle East, two elements are needed.
One is peace between Palestinians and Israelis. And you don't need to reinvent the wheel here. It's going to be Israel, next to the state of Palestine on the '67 border. That's as we know it, and that's the vision of President Bush, so that's number one.
Number two is democracy in the Arab world. And anybody who says Arabs are not really for democracy is a racist, Wolf. A combination of peace and democracy should be the main foundations for the new Middle East.
And without these things, I believe we're just going to see the labor pains that give birth to these extremist movements and others and others and others and others. Because, you know, out of this outcome of violence, extremists are gaining. That's the truth. Extremists are gaining.
It's moderates like me who are being undermined. It's the prospect for peace between me and the Israelis that's being undermined now.
BLITZER: All right.
ERAKAT: And that's the truth. That's the unfortunate truth.
BLITZER: We unfortunately have to leave it right there. But Saeb Erakat, it was nice of you to come into Jerusalem. Appreciate it very much.
ERAKAT: Thank you, Wolf.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And we're following breaking news in the crisis in the Middle East. Two developments we're following right now.
Lebanese sources confirming to CNN that four United Nations observers were killed today by an Israeli airstrike in south Lebanon. We're getting more information on that.
Also, Israel is saying that they have killed a Hezbollah commander, a top Hezbollah commander in Southern Lebanon. We're following that as well.
In addition, more on the deepening crisis here in the Middle East. I'll have my exclusive interview with Israel's vice premier, Shimon Peres, who describes the conflict with Hezbollah as a war of life or death.
Stay with us. Much more of our coverage right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: And we're getting more information on Israel's air strike in Lebanon today, Southern Lebanon against Hezbollah targets, one of those air strikes killing four United Nation's observers in south Lebanon. We're getting the first official statement from UNIFIL, the United Nation's interim force in Lebanon. The UNIFIL it says has confirmed that an aerial bomb has hit a patrol base of the observer group Lebanon near Khiam, in Southern Lebanon. UNIFIL says there were casualties in that attack, although it has no further information on that at present.
UNIFIL has sent a rescue and medical team to the area, and that team is currently trying to clear away rubble. UNIFIL also says there were at least 14 incidents of firing close to that position since this afternoon. No official confirmation yet from UNIFIL that four members of the UNIFIL -- of the United Nations observer force in Lebanon have been killed. We're getting that from Lebanese sources.
The other story we're following, statement coming in from Israeli military, authorities here in Israel, that they have killed what they're describing as a senior Hezbollah military commander fighting in Southern Lebanon near the Israeli border, the man identified as Abu Jaafar.
The commander they say of Hezbollah's central sector on the Lebanese border with Israel. He was killed in an exchange of fire according to this Israeli statement with Israeli troops near the Lebanese border village of Maroun Al Ras, which the Israelis took a couple days ago. Just a short while ago here in Jerusalem, I spoke with Shimon Peres in an exclusive interview.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Just a short while ago I spoke with Shimon Peres in an exclusive interview.
Mr. Prime Minister thanks very much for coming in. You addressed the Knesset today and made a direct appeal to the people of Lebanon to do what?
SHIMON PERES, ISRAEL VICE PREMIER: The people of Lebanon were able to expel the Syrians out of Lebanon. So it seems that Israel would really take it seriously, they can disarm the Hezbollah as well.
BLITZER: That would cause -- that would effectively cause a civil war, given the Shia support within Lebanon of the Hezbollah.
PERES: And what are they having now? A dictatorship of Hezbollah? They're being ground by the Hezbollah, there is another half and maybe a majority that doesn't like it.
BLITZER: But you remember when there was a civil war in Lebanon between the Sunni and the Shia and the Palestinians and the Jews. It was an awful situation and they're trying to avoid that.
PERES: I don't think it will be the same this time because the Hezbollah appear right now completely as a servant of Iran. They don't serve a single need or a single purpose of Lebanon.
BLITZER: But they do have support among many Lebanese?
PERES: I'm not so sure. I think the majority is terribly unhappy. I don't believe that the half a million people who have left their houses are supporters of Hezbollah. I don't think even the south -- I think many people feel that Hezbollah not only doesn't serve Lebanon but does harm to Lebanon.
BLITZER: Is it realistic to assume that this 70,000 member, 80,000 member Lebanese army, whatever it is, has the will and the might to take on Hezbollah?
PERES: They can have the will and have the might, for example, to place the Hezbollah into deployment, alongside the Israeli border. This is the call of the United Nations, this is the call of the Lebanese government and they should do it.
BLITZER: You say that Hezbollah already has been, in your words, morally defeated?
PERES: Yes.
BLITZER: Is that the way you phrase it? On the basis of what evidence do you say that?
PERES: For the first time, many Arab countries stood up against them, and condemned them, never I can recall. The G-8, like one, condemned them. I don't know anybody that supports them. In Lebanon itself, we estimated the majority of people are against them. Now, what are they?
Who needs them? What are they trying to do? If they want territorial achievement (INAUDIBLE), in accordance with United Nations. They don't have Lebanese prisoners, they say we have two or three, we don't know if they have two or three, for two and three launch a war and you create such a tragedy for the people.
BLITZER: For the two soldiers that were kidnapped from Israel's perspective, you launched a war against Hezbollah.
PERES: We didn't launch a war, it wasn't the only thing they did. They also attacked us with rockets, don't forget it. But there is a difference, they penetrated the sovereignty of Israel, the land of Israel. They tried as they succeeded in having two soldiers taking hostages. But furthermore, they wanted to make, from the hostages, the taking of hostages, a strategy, and we have to react very clearly, that this is a totally unaccepted strategy (INAUDIBLE).
BLITZER: Some had suggested there's a contradiction in what you're saying, what you said to the Knesset today. On the one hand you're reaching out to the people of Lebanon saying Israel wants peace. On the other hand, Israel is going ahead and effectively destroying much of Lebanon's basic infrastructure and displacing, according to Jan Egeland, the U.N. emergency relief coordinator, he says 800,000 Lebanese have been displaced. Is there a contradiction here?
PERES: No, we don't displace anybody, we didn't hit any Lebanese infrastructure, nothing whatsoever.
BLITZER: Got the bridges, the airport?
PERES: No, that's a different story. The airport was used for the shipment of arms from Iran to Lebanon. And the bridges were used to bring in weapons from Syria to Lebanon. So that was a -- well we didn't hit electricity, we didn't hit anything which is civilian.
BLITZER: TV transmission towers?
PERES: That's again, that's propaganda. And they use it as a propaganda. But let me say, we have a problem which I don't deny. And that is that the Hezbollah is keeping its missiles in private homes. And we are telling those people, either get rid of the missiles or leave the home, because we cannot fault a situation whereby you'll keep the missile at home, and you'll fire against us.
So they have a choice and many of them already left their homes because they couldn't get or they didn't have the chance to get rid of the missiles. Missiles are not dogs, there is a pet missile at home. And that's their choice.
BLITZER: That's why you've attacked, and their civilians have been killed in the process?
PERES: Here, again, we are very careful -- look, compare it with Kosovo. You know how many civilians who were killed in Kosovo? Many people (INAUDIBLE) to say this.
BLITZER: By NATO troops, you mean?
PERES: Yes, over 10,000. And I know they didn't want to kill civilians. A war is not such a precise operation, but we are very careful. Every night in the headquarters makes sure that they should not hit civilians, every pilot I know it from talking with them, are very careful not to do that. We don't want to do any damage to the Lebanese infrastructure and clearly, we don't want to kill any civilian life in Lebanon.
BLITZER: We're almost out of time. But the international peace- keeping force or peace-making force, whatever it's going to be called, the stabilization force that might come in, could you explain what Israel's position is? Because we've heard that you would like preferably some NATO involvement.
PERES: Well I'm not sure that we can have a NATO involvement because a NATO involvement must have a unanimous decision. And I'm not sure that some countries for example, the Scandinavian countries, will agree to take part in this sort of operation, but our problem is not the composition of the international force, but the mission. If they will just come and say what is the value of it, we bet they only feel it was irrelevant to the situation.
If they can do one of the three things, namely to control the arsenal of missiles and rockets, B, to deploy themselves or the Lebanese army, on the Israeli border. Three, to disarm, or pose the disarmament of the Hezbollah, it's okay. But if they are not ready to use force, but just, I mean, to teach a lesson, I'm not sure it will be effective.
BLITZER: So it can't just be an observer force, it's got to be a peace-making force?
PERES: Exactly.
BLITZER: And you're talking what, 20, 30,000 troops that might have to go in?
PERES: I don't think you need as many. The Hezbollah is in our judgment between six and seven thousand people.
BLITZER: One final question, how much longer do you think the fighting will go on?
PERES: It may take time.
BLITZER: How much time?
PERES: I can't tell you. It may be a long period of time because there is a difference between an army and a corps of terrorists. An Army has a front, has a location, has a line, has a uniform, has a flag. So when you win, you win. When they lose, they lose. When it comes to terrorism, you don't have a flag, you don't have a front, you don't have a location, and you don't have an end to it.
We think that the Hezbollah begun to lose its effectiveness and forces, and we think that we shall reach a point where they will be broken, in their morale and their arms, it may take a little bit more time. Our purpose is not to break anybody. Our purpose is to break the strengths and the danger of Iran, so we shall be able to come to negotiations.
BLITZER: Break the strength of Iran you meant?
PERES: No, of the Hezbollah. I mean there is a (INAUDIBLE). Iran, Syria, Hezbollah and Hamas. Israel is facing two of them, which are not states, Hezbollah and Hamas. We expect the international community to face the other two who are a state and who are a danger to the world, and their strengths is simply a weakness of the international community. So there must be a division of labor, and we have to have all of all together.
BLITZER: We got to leave it there. Thanks so much for coming in.
PERES: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And up next we're following breaking news in the crisis here in the Middle East. Four United Nations observers in south Lebanon were killed today apparently in an Israeli air strike. We'll update you on that. Also, the Israel defense forces saying they've killed what they call a senior commander of Hezbollah in the central area of Southern Lebanon not far from the Israeli border.
Also, other stories we're following, including an important one back in Washington, some very angry democrats trying to block Iraq's visiting Prime Minister Nouri Al Maliki from addressing a joint session, a joint meeting of the U.S. Congress tomorrow. We'll tell you what's causing so much controversy back home. Stay with us.
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BLITZER: Just getting confirmation from the United States ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton. Confirmation, more confirmation that four United Nations observers have been killed, apparently in an Israeli air strike in Southern Lebanon. We're going to get more on that in a moment. Also, the IDF, the Israel Defense Forces, saying they've killed what they call a top commander of Hezbollah in a fierce battle in Southern Lebanon.
Christiane Amanpour is back in Jerusalem, she's here with us now. You were just up there in the northern part of Israel, very close to apparently where this air strike killed these four UNIFIL observers.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Yes, apparently at the base of al-Khiam, which is five kilometers from the fence, which is where we were last night, the fence just across from Matula (ph). And last night I reported to you on your program that we were hearing of big increase in artillery and aerial bombardment just across that border.
So, potentially, it's right there that it happened. This is going to be potentially a very big problem. You remember very well in 1996, the last Israeli operation against Hezbollah under Prime Minister Peres, there was a big accident at a refugee camp, lots and lots of refugees were killed in Southern Lebanon at Kana, and that caused an end to the operation. So these incidents are potentially very, very, not only in terms of loss of human life, but very potentially could affect the operation.
BLITZER: We don't know the nationality of these four UNIFIL observers, we do know that French troops, Ghanaian troops, Polish troops are among those participating in this long standing ineffective United Nations observer mission.
AMANPOUR: And the U.N. has put out a statement tonight confirming obviously that this happened and that there were casualties. But also saying that apparently at this base they reported 14 close firing incidents since this afternoon alone.
BLITZER: That's what they said. By the way, as we're speaking, our viewers are seeing some pictures of tanks from northern Israel, firing apparently into Southern Lebanon. You observed that up close and personal over these past several days.
AMANPOUR: Yes, we did. And I'll tell you what's very interesting. As this goes on they talk about their military incursions, they talk about the gains against Hezbollah, the capture of the strategic hilltop town of Bint Jbeil now today. But also I'm hearing a lot more from both the military briefers who we talked to, the generals who we talked to, and inside the Israeli press, this increasing concern about the casualties on the other side.
Because they know that this is becoming now a huge international issue and you know, Israel has always conducted its military campaign with one eye on the military objective and one eye has to be on international public opinion. So while this diplomacy is now going into effect, these kinds of incidents may speed up the diplomacy and perhaps slow down the military.
BLITZER: As you know, and we'll continue to show these pictures to our viewers of these tanks firing, UNIFIL over all of these past couple of decades, pretty ineffective, mostly just an observer force. What are you hearing Christiane about the new international force that Condoleezza Rice and so many others would like to see come into Southern Lebanon to restore some semblance of stability?
AMANPOUR: Well number one that they don't have a fixed confirmations and contributors in terms of force providers. Number two though that it must be robust. And I go back to my experience in the Balkans. Once the United States brokered the peace accord at Dayton, the United States led with a NATO force of 60,000 people, 20,000 of them American soldiers, to interpose themselves between the Bosnians and the Serbs.
But in that situation, they had the agreement, maybe kicking and screaming, but the agreement of both sides. And for the whole deployment, not one soldier was killed in anger. Not one shot was fired in anger. The issue here is what is the mandate, obviously it's going to be robust, it has to be. They have to stop Hezbollah that means they have to be able to fire back or really heavily conduct their mandate.
And so it's not going to be just an observer force, it's going to be a robust force, it's one that has to go along the Israel-Lebanon border and it also has to go along the Lebanon-Syria border. Now this is where it becomes really tricky. Because if it's along the Lebanon Syria border, to disrupt the potential supply of weapons from Syria to Lebanon. But if Syria is not part of the solution that means Syria could potentially want to destabilize by sending weapons through the border.
BLITZER: There are voices as you know saying that Syria should be weaned away from Iran, try to bring Syria back into this coalition if you will, with Saudi Arabia, with Egypt, with Jordan. Is that doable though?
AMANPOUR: Wolf listen, there is a crescendo of opinion all over this region, from the U.N. to all the other countries who are involved that Syria and Iran must be part of the solution. Syria because it's right on the border, it has to be, because of its contacts with Hezbollah, it has to be. Only the United States doesn't want to directly talk to Syria. And I've just listened to an interview with former U.S. peace negotiator, Dennis Ross.
The first Bush administration -- Clinton administration, who also said Syria must be brought into this equation, otherwise, what country is going to want to contribute forces if -- what forces are going to want to be there if Syria is going to be, you know potentially a destabilizer rather than a stabilizer.
BLITZER: You lost your train of thought because our producer was speaking as you were talking, which is totally understandable. I'm a little bit more used to that.
AMANPOUR: I thought he was going to be talking to you.
BLITZER: No, he was talking to me, but you were hearing him at the same as I was. Christiane stand by because we're going to be talking some more. As we're speaking, there's a huge controversy breaking out in Washington right now involving the Iraqi prime minister visiting the United States for the first time, Nouri Al Maliki. And this controversy directly involves what's happening right here in the Middle East crisis. Our White House correspondent Ed Henry is standing by with more on that. Ed?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's check in with Lou Dobbs to see what is coming up right at the top of the hour. Lou?
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Well thank you. Coming up at 6:00 p.m. eastern here, we'll have the very latest for you on the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah, and the latest on those UN observers killed by the Israelis today. Also, other critically important stories tonight. The United States sending more troops into Iraq, as sectarian violence is spiraling out of control. Is U.S. strategy there failing? Is Iraq on its way to civil war? We'll be live at the White House, the Pentagon and a special report for you from Baghdad.
Also, tonight, the Bush White House and the American Bar Association on a collision course. The American Bar Association is accusing the president of violating the U.S. Constitution and undermining the rule of law in this nation. The chairman of the ABA task force making those charges is my guest.
And a deadly heat wave gripping much of the United States, this heat wave has killed dozens of people and pushed our outdated electrical systems to the breaking point. We'll have that special report and a great deal more. We hope you'll be with us. Wolf Blitzer in Jerusalem, back to you.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Lou. Let's bring in our congressional correspondent, Andrea Koppel on a major controversy unfolding back home in Washington. It involves the visiting prime minister of Iraq, Nouri Al Maliki, what's going on Andrea?
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, in contrast -- a sharp contrast to that warm welcome that the Iraqi prime minister received over at the White House today, democrats in the House and Senate are expressing strong reservations about Maliki's planned address to both houses tomorrow. In fact, in the Senate, democratic leaders fired off an angry letter to the Iraqi prime minister, asking him to clarify his position, whether he supports or condemns terrorism. While in the House, in a written statement, democratic leader Nancy Pelosi also expressed reservations but at the same time, declined to join about 20 democratic House members who wrote a letter to Dennis Hastert asking him to withdraw, to roll up that red carpet for Maliki.
All of these lawmakers are objecting to comments that Maliki has made in which he expressed and condemned, rather, in his eyes what he called Israeli aggression, while at the same time, refusing to condemn actions made by Hamas and Hezbollah. These lawmakers say they expect an apology from Maliki before he addresses Congress tomorrow, Wolf.
BLITZER: Andrea Koppel with that story. Thanks very much. Up next we'll get to Jack Cafferty, he's standing by with his question of the hour. Should the U.S. send more troops to Baghdad? Stay with us.
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BLITZER: Let's check in with Jack Cafferty in New York. Jack?
CAFFERTY: The U.S. Wolf has agreed to put more of our troops into Baghdad. President Bush says this will involve moving some American troops from other parts of the country into the capital city. The question we asked is, should the U.S. be sending more troops into Baghdad?
Jim writes, "The number of our soldiers who have given their lives in Iraq is fast approaching the number of lives lost in the twin towers. It may be too late to court the U.N.'s help now, but a U.N. force might be the only thing that could stop the killing there. This war may go down in history as the biggest blunder the United States has ever made."
Paula writes from Missouri, "My son is heading to Iraq for the second time. Many of his peers are facing a third and yes even a fourth tour there. You're so right about our troops being trained in 13 weeks or less. The first time my son got a whole 37 days of training. When are the Iraqi troops going to grow some anatomy deleted and stand up for their own country?"
Evan in Brooklyn writes, "Yes, Jack, we should send more troops to Baghdad in order to control the situation there. A civil war is raging in Baghdad due to the uncontrolled militias. We need to quash it there before it spreads across the whole country."
Steve in Roswell, Georgia, "Send more troops to Iraq? Why don't we send the Iraqi troops to Marine Corps Boot Camp at Parris Island for 13 weeks, then send them back to Iraq and bring our guys home for good?"
And Luke in Piscataway, New Jersey writes, "As a member of the U.S. Armed Forces, I can honestly say sending more troops to Iraq is not going to help at all. Iraq's in the middle of a civil war, whether this government wishes to see it or not. American forces are no longer viewed as liberators but rather as occupiers, it's time this ends, our troops come home and Iraqis decide the fate of their own country."
Finally, Gail in Front Royal, Virginia, "I can only quote a great T-shirt I saw. It read, 'Be nice to America or we'll bring democracy to your country.' No more troops to Baghdad. How about a few on the Mexican border?" If you didn't see your e-mail here, you can go to CNN.com/CaffertyFile and read some more of these online where we post some every day that we don't have time to read on the air. Wolf, back to you.
BLITZER: All right, Jack, thanks very much. Jack Cafferty in New York. We'll be back with you in an hour. Remember, we're here in THE SITUATION ROOM, Monday through Friday 4:00 to 6:00 p.m. eastern, back for another hour at 7:00 to 8:00 p.m. Eastern. We'll be back tonight with much more of our special coverage of the crisis in the Middle East.
Until then, thanks very much for joining us. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Jerusalem. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT," starts right now. Lou is in New York -- Lou.
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