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The Situation Room
Gunman Shoots Children in Amish School; Congressional Scandal Shakes GOP
Aired October 02, 2006 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOHN KING, HOST: To our viewers, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time. Standing by, CNN reporters across the United States and around the world to bring you today's top stories.
Happening now, scandal on Capitol Hill concerning former Republican Congressman Mark Foley. There are new questions about who knew what and when, about sexually explicit messages Foley allegedly sent to congressional pages. House leaders say they're disgusted. The Democrats allege a Republican cover-up this election year.
It's 5 p.m. in Pennsylvania where police say a gunman walked into an Amish schoolhouse, sent the boys out, kept the females in and shot three execution style before turning the gun on himself.
And Donald Rumsfeld reacts. What does the defense secretary think of Bob Woodward's book, which says there were secret attempts to oust Rumsfeld?
Wolf Blitzer is off today. I'm John King. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
A developing story this hour. For the third time in a week, a gunman walked into a school and opened fire. It happened in an Amish community in Paradise Township, Pennsylvania. Police say the man's execution style killings may have been an attempt to exact some sort of revenge.
Our Mary Snow is in New York with the details -- Mary.
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, police in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, can only describe it as a horrific crime scene. They say a milk truck driver armed with a shot gun and a pistol barricaded himself in a one-room Amish schoolhouse, killed three females and wounded seven others, all females, before killing himself. The students were between the ages of 6 and 13.
Police say the gunman's motive was to seek revenge for something that happened two decades ago, but it's unclear just what that was.
The gunman has been identified as 32-year-old Charles Carl Roberts IV. Police say Roberts allowed 15 boys to leave the school this morning but ordered the girls to line up along a blackboard, bound them and shot them execution style. A teacher who was able to escape dialed 911. And when troopers arrived, police say the gunman opened fire on the students. The state police commissioner says Roberts left suicide notes to his own children that were discovered this morning and that he was in contact with his wife by cell phone.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COMMISSIONER JEFFREY MILLER, PENNSYLVANIA STATE POLICE: On the phone this morning he made a statement to his wife while he was inside the school. She didn't know where he was. That, you know, he couldn't go on anymore. The notes would explain it and he was getting revenge for something that happened 20 years ago.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: Now police believe one of the three victims who was killed was a teacher's aide. They say one student died in the arms of a trooper. As for the conditions of the seven victims who were injured and taken to local hospitals, police say they were all shot. Some were shot in the head and are seriously injured -- John.
KING: Mary Snow for us, tracking these developments of this horrible story in a schoolhouse in Pennsylvania. Hopefully a bit more on this story just ahead in THE SITUATION ROOM. We're trying to re- establish contact with Colonel Jeffrey Miller. He's the Pennsylvania State Police commissioner. Hoping to get an update on the investigation, and if and when we do, we'll bring it to you.
But now to a scandal rocking Congress, one that has Republican leaders using words like vile and disgusting, enormous cover-up. At the center, former Republican Congressman Mark Foley, who sent Internet messages to young men working for Congress or used to work for Congress, some of them sexually explicit.
Today, the Florida Republican told a TV station he's in rehab, being treated for alcoholism. Foley says he deeply regrets and accepts, quote, "full responsibility the harm I've caused."
Meanwhile, officials in Florida, the FBI and the House of Representatives are all investigating if the e-mail and instant messages exchanges constitute possible misconduct or maybe even criminal activity.
CNN congressional correspondent Andrea Koppel just moments sat down with Republican House Speaker Dennis Hastert. She's joining us live with more -- Andrea.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John, ever since this story broke, Speaker Hastert and the Republican leadership have launched an aggressive campaign to try to spin the story back away from the allegation that this has been what Democrats are saying an election year cover-up on the part of the Republicans.
Speaker Hastert spent a lot of today behind closed doors with the clerk of the House as well as with the Republican chairman of the House page board. Just a few moments ago when I sat down with Speaker Hastert, I asked him the question on the minds of many: what did he know and when did he know it?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REP. DENNIS HASTERT (R-IL), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: First I was really aware of this was last Friday when it happened. And all of a sudden the press came out and said that there were these e-mails that were from 2003, I guess, and Congressman Foley resigned. That's when I learned of it, at that point.
KOPPEL: All right. But I thought that you were also notified -- I mean, Tom Reynolds said that he spoke with you about it last spring.
HASTERT: You know, I don't recall Reynolds talking to me about that. If he did, he brought it in with a whole stack of things, and I think if he would have had that discussion, he would have -- he would have said it was also resolved, because my understanding now that it was resolved at that point. The family had gotten what it wanted to get.
KOPPEL: All right. I mean, Congressman Reynolds put out a statement on Saturday saying that he told you in the spring. Do you think he's lying?
HASTERT: No, I'm not saying. I just don't recall him telling me that. If he would have told me that, but told me that in the context, maybe of a half a dozen or a dozen other things. I don't remember that.
KOPPEL: Are there other allegations of improper e-mails?
HASTERT: No, no, it's just other things that might have affected campaigns.
KOPPEL: OK. This is the kind of thing, I've got to tell you, if somebody told me that a senior congressman was sending, perhaps, over- friendly e-mails to a 16-year-old page, I'd remember.
HASTERT: I'm just saying that I don't remember him telling me that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: House Speaker Dennis Hastert maintains that now he, along with the chairman of this House page board, are putting into effect various safeguards -- safe -- stop in order to prevent this from happening again, John.
It involves setting up a toll-free 1-800 number for family members, friends, pages themselves to call in a confidential manner. As far as why he didn't involve the other two members of the House page board, Speaker Hastert maintains that he wanted to get this done as quickly as possible -- John.
KING: Andrea Koppel, fresh from a one-on-one interview with the speaker, Dennis Hastert. Trying to answer your questions, Andrea, but some of his answers I don't think will be satisfactory to the many critics who say he should have handled this differently.
Among them, of course, the Democratic minority leader, Nancy Pelosi. She alleges top Republicans in the House knew about Foley's e-mails and covered it up, because it's an election year, perhaps.
House speaker Hastert says, although he was told of what he called overly friendly e-mail exchange sent to the former page, Hastert says he only learned of those more sexually explicit messages this past week.
Let's get more on this scandal and how it's playing out in Florida from CNN national correspondent, Susan Candiotti. She's in West Palm Beach -- Susan.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, John.
Well, today Congressman Foley, through his attorney, told CNN that he checked himself into an alcohol rehab center, something some Washington insiders, perhaps cynically, predicted would be the next thing to happen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Saying recent events, quote, "crystallized long-standing alcohol and emotional problems," Mark Foley announced he checked himself into a rehab center over the weekend.
The ex-congressman faxed a letter to a Florida TV station. Foley's words confirmed to CNN by his attorney, David Roth.
As Foley put it, "I strongly believe that I am an alcoholic and have accepted immediate treatment for alcoholism and related behavioral problems." He added, "I deeply regret and accept full responsibility for the harm I have caused."
If Foley suffered from alcoholism, friends contacted by CNN and even Foley's own brother-in-law say they knew nothing about it. Nor did Washington insiders.
THOMAS MANN, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: If Congressman Foley had an alcohol problem, it was -- it was well hidden. It wasn't something that was known widely on Capitol Hill, which raises the possibility that it's a step being taken for tactical purposes more than anything else.
CANDIOTTI: GOP sources tell CNN Foley's decision for in-house treatment might be more geared to get him into a protected environment than any possible problem with alcohol.
At the consignment shop where she works, long-time constituent Sally Spilone (ph) calls this treatment a cover-up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am not a youngster, and I've met many people that are alcoholics. And I don't think that that is -- that isn't a reason for what he's doing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That sounds like that might be more of an excuse, something to maybe explain away the problem and maybe get a little more sympathy on his side. But I think they're probably two separate issues, frankly.
CANDIOTTI: Within the last two months, two other congressmen entered rehab, when faced with political and legal scandals.
Rhode Island Representative Patrick Kennedy completed treatment after a car crash, after admitting to a problem with mood-altering medications. He remains on the job. Ohio Congressman Bob Ney resigned and pleaded guilty to corruption charges. He also entered an alcohol abuse rehab center.
In Foley's case, most believe his political life is over.
MANN: Some wags had predicted a couple of days ago that it's only a matter of time before Congressman Foley checks himself into an alcohol rehab program.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI: Right now the GOP is demanding investigations by the Justice Department and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, all looking into whether the congressman broke any federal or Florida laws -- John.
KING: Susan Candiotti for us, tracking the story in West Palm Beach. Susan, thank you very much.
Jack Cafferty is in New York now with the "Cafferty File" -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: Have you ever noticed, John, how these morons rush into rehab after they get caught doing something they shouldn't? They never come forward before they get caught and say, "You know, I've got a problem and I think I'm going to address it and go get treated." It's after they get caught, and then they race into rehab like, "See, I'm being a really good guy now."
Almost every good scandal's got a not-so-good cover-up attempt. The Foley e-mail nonsense is no exception. There's a little -- how should we say -- confusion over exactly who on Capitol Hill knew what when.
Yesterday House Speaker Dennis Hastert sent a letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, asking the Justice Department to investigate. Sven though Speaker Hastert himself was reportedly told months ago about some overly friendly e-mails that Foley was sending to kids, Hastert insists he knew nothing about the more sexually explicit e-mails until ABC News broke the story.
Apparently, ex-Congressman Foley has been writing improper and, in some cases, sexually explicit messages to former House pages, kids, as far back as 2003. Foley, the pervert, as we noted, is rushing into rehab now in an attempt to salvage something of his image and maybe hide from the law enforcement folks who are starting to sniff around this deal. That won't work.
And Hastert says he doesn't remember being told about Foley but he doesn't deny it either. Doesn't remember? The speaker of the House was told a congressman was sending what can only be described as improper e-mails to a 16-year-old page and he doesn't remember? Please, pass me a grain of salt.
Here's the question: "If members of Congress, including Speaker Dennis Hastert, knew about Rep. Foley's sexually suggestive e-mails, what should the consequences be for them?" E-mail your thoughts to CaffertyFile@CNN.com or go to CNN.com/CaffertyFile.
John, I've got to go wash my hands. This story just makes me feel a little unclean.
KING: I'm guessing you're going to get some interesting answers. Jack Cafferty, thank you very much.
And unfortunately, it's not the first time a questionable situation like this has happened concerning a member of Congress. Coming up, our Jeff Greenfield will explain.
Also, for constantly updated political news throughout the day, check out the CNN political ticker at CNN.com/ticker.
And up ahead, he's the man Florida Republicans are tapping to replace former Congressman Foley in the midterm elections. Florida state representative Joe Negron is standing by to joining us in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Also a children's advocacy group find themselves in a very uncomfortable situation in the Foley scandal, facing criticism for the way they handled the situation initially.
Plus Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld in an unflattering spotlight. We'll get his reaction to Bob Woodward's new book, "State of Denial".
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Want to bring you the latest now in the investigation into this deadly school shooting.
Joining me on the phone is Colonel Jeffrey Miller. He's the Pennsylvania State Police commissioner.
Colonel Miller, let's just start with the basics. What do we know about -- the latest on the investigation in terms of how many people were in that school when this happened and how it played out? MILLER: Well, John, we know at this point that we have -- we have a good roster of 26 -- 26 children who were in the school taking classes today at the West Nickel Mine Amish school here in Bart Township, Lancaster County. Fifteen of them were male, and 11 were female. They ranged in age from 6 years old to 13 years old.
There were also some student aides in the classroom, as well, I believe three of them. And they are -- I don't have their exact ages, but they are around 15, 16 years of age.
And we know now that, obviously, we had two students and an aide that were killed at the scene, as well as the gunman taking his own life. But we're now getting updated reports. We have two of the seven children that were airlifted and taken from the scene to hospitals are in -- are in very dire critical condition at this time, on life support. So it would take a miracle for us to not lose -- lose more lives today.
KING: That's terrible news, Colonel Miller. We spoke earlier. And the gentleman left the suicide note at his home that said he was avenging something that happened to him 20 years ago. Do we have any idea what he's talking about?
MILLER: Well, we're working on that now, John. I can't really go into details. But he made a statement to his wife on the phone from the scene. He wouldn't tell her where he was.
He just said, "The police are outside. I'm not coming home. Tell the girls that I love them. This is revenge for, you know -- for 20 years ago," something that he was involved in 20 years ago. And that's what we're investigating his motives, as well.
KING: We spoke earlier. Said he's from the community, did not attend the specific school but knows the community quite well. He stormed into this school, kicked all the male students out. Is that correct? Kept the female students in the classroom?
MILLER: Right. He came in the school, and he separated the kids right away. He had them stand up by the blackboard. He let the male students go. He also let a pregnant female and three other adult females with infant children, he let them leave.
And the teacher was able to sneak out at that time. And that's when she called -- called police, and we responded to the scene. And from that point forward and as we investigate this further, it's very clear that he premeditated this action. He boarded up the school from the inside. He fortified it in a way that was almost impossible to gain entry through the doorways. We had to break the windows to get in.
And of course, at that time when we were making entry, when our troopers were making entry, they saw him face down on the floor, dead of what appeared to be a self-inflicted gunshot room. This is after he fired multiple rounds, we believe, from an automatic weapon, handgun. KING: And Colonel Miller, anything from that tactical decision by the shooter, if you will, the gunman, to separate, send the boys out of the school along with the pregnant woman you talked about, keep the other girls in there, anything from that decision or from the notes he left at home or the conversation with his wife before he took his life that opened the door to the motive at all here?
MILLER: Well, all I can say right now is it appears to us just from what we know to this point that this was a target of opportunity. I don't think he -- he had something against the Amish community or anything like that. I think this was just a target of opportunity where he could find the victims that he wanted to find, that is, females between the ages of 6 and 13.
And I really believe, based on what we know, that his intent was to not come out of there alive, but also to -- to exact some sort of revenge. Again, he was focused on these female students of the school that, obviously, are just victims in this case. And our hearts and our prayers go out to the families in this community that are just ravaged at this point.
KING: And obviously, Colonel, you say that there are some things you're not prepared to share yet as you continue the investigation. We certainly understand that.
Is it your view that this is something about this gentleman and about his history, as he said to his wife, something that happened 20 years ago, or do you think it's any possibility he could be a copycat? We have had a couple school shootings in recent days.
MILLER: Well, based on what -- again, based on what we're currently investigating and what I know, I don't believe -- I mean, you can't say for sure. I don't believe it was a copycat case. I mean, he may have -- it may have played into -- played some sort of a role.
But I think this was about this individual, this suspect, Charles Carl Roberts, 32 years of age, and what happened in his life previously. Because he had no violent history; he wasn't wanted for any offense. I don't believe he had a criminal history to speak of. So this is something that emanated from within him and his past.
KING: Colonel Jeffrey Miller, the commissioner of the Pennsylvania State Police. Sir, thank you for helping us try to understand something that is impossible to understand, this tragic event today in Paradise, Pennsylvania. Thank you for your time, sir.
MILLER: Thank you.
Coming up, they're inappropriate and many say outrageous, but did former congressman Mark Foley's messages to an underaged former congressional page break any laws? We'll have the latest on a possible criminal investigation.
Plus, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children finds itself in an awkward position because of its relationship with Foley. Details ahead.
You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Just a few hours ago the Florida Republican Party announced its replacement for former Congressman Mark Foley in the November election. It's Florida State Representative Joe Negron. He joins us now from Orlando.
Joe Negron, thanks for joining us here in THE SITUATION ROOM. You're in a very difficult position. You will be the Republican candidate, but the voters in your district will be asked to vote for Mark Foley, the disgraced former congressman, because his name is printed on the ballot. You had to have second thoughts bout accepting this assignment.
JOE NEGRON (R), FLORIDA CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE: I don't think so. I think that this is something that will be a great opportunity for me and the Republican Party to bounce back from the tragedy of mark Foley.
People are not being asked to vote for Mark Foley. His name is simply appearing on the ballot as a placeholder for the Republican nominee. I'm now the Republican nominee. I have five weeks to get my message across.
If people in this district want a conservative Republican, this is a 60 percent for Jeb Bush House district. It's not all of a sudden going to swing to Tim Mahoney, who's hanging out with John Kerry. And Nancy Pelosi's on her way to the district. So I'm optimistic that I can get the word out. And people are pretty smart; they'll figure it out.
KING: You say people are pretty smart. They'll figure it out. You're also going right after the Democratic leadership, so you've hit the ground running, if you will.
Obviously, you have a communications issue, and the voters will see Mark Foley's name when they walk into the booth to vote. Have you been promised money from the national party to help you communicate the point you just made with voters: yes, you may have to hold your nose and push a lever, push a button that says "Mark Foley", but you're not voting for him, you're voting for Joe Negron when you do that?
NEGRON: John, we have strong support from not only the state and local party, but we've been in contact with the national party. They don't want this seat to become part of the Democratic column.
Only 15 seats separate the Republicans and their maintaining a majority in Congress. I think it's important to the president, to the war on terror, to national security that we keep this good Republican seat in Republican hands. And I'm prepared to work as hard as I can to make that happen. KING: There are questions not only about conduct for Mark Foley. I think we would agree if proven is despicable. There are questions about how the Republican leadership handled it. If you win this seat and the Republicans keep their majority in Congress, do you think Denny Hastert should remain the speaker, based on what you know about how this was handled?
NEGRON: Absolutely. We learned about this Friday afternoon. And here we are Monday, and the speaker of the House has already requested a full criminal investigation.
KING: Let me stop you there, sir. Forgive me -- forgive me for interrupting. Let me stop. We learned about the graphic sexual text messages to a student.
But as far back as 11 months ago some members of the Republican leadership knew that Congressman Foley had sent an e-mail to a 16- year-old boy, asking him to send a picture. That is, if you have any training in these matters, a red flag for inappropriate behavior, perhaps, pedophilia.
And they went to Congressman Foley and said, "Stop." They didn't say get counseling. They didn't bring in any lawyers. They didn't even bring in any of the Democrats or other Republicans on the page board. Was that the right way to handle this?
NEGRON: Well, John, I share your outrage at what Congressman Foley did. But we need to have an investigation before we jump to conclusions. And not only does Speaker Hastert ask for Mark Foley's conduct to be looked at but also who knew about these e-mails, what was the context, how did they know about it, and what can we do to prevent it in the future?
So I don't think anything has been covered up. I think there's a full investigation under way. And whatever penalties need to be meted out and whatever we need to do to make sure that this never happens to another young man or young woman who becomes a page in the U.S. Congress.
KING: Let me ask you lastly in closing, you've hit the ground running here. You're obviously a seasoned politician. What is your sense of the mood in the district and in the country because of this? They're already this talk that it's not a great year to be an incumbent, not a great year to be a Republican just because of the national tide. Does this affect the climate? I'm sure it affects it somewhat in your district. Do you think it affects the climate nationally for Republicans?
NEGRON: Well, I think that the American people are very fair and very just. And they're not going to penalize me for something that another person did.
So I sense that Republicans are in a fighting spirit and they're saying, you know what? Let's not compound the problem this Mark Foley and the disgrace he's brought on himself by losing the seat to the Democrats. This is a Republican district. I'm willing to fight to keep it in the Republican column and to make sure that this congressman supports our president.
KING: Florida State Representative Joe Negron, for just a few hours now the Republican nominee to take Mark Foley's place on the ballot. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us today.
NEGRON: Thank you, John.
KING: Thank you.
And coming up, the situation involving a congressman and possible inappropriate conduct has happened before. Our Jeff Greenfield will explain.
And he figures prominently in Bob Woodward's explosive book about the Iraq war, but what does Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld think of the account that some in the administration secretly wanted him fired? Rumsfeld is reacting to that. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: You're in THE SITUATION ROOM where new pictures and information are arriving all the time. Happening now, death in an Amish community. Police are trying to determine why a man would storm a one-room school in Pennsylvania, take female students hostage, kill three of them, then kill himself. Police say he may have been trying to exact some unexplained revenge.
Also a capital scandal concerning former Republican Congressman Mark Foley and sexually explicit messages he sent to former congressional pages. Foley says he's now seeking treatment for alcoholism, this as officials in Florida, the FBI and Congress investigate his conduct.
And he's now the front runner, South Korea's foreign minister is one step closer to becoming the next United Nations secretary general. Ban Ki Moon is the only one of six candidates not to be vetoed in an informal U.N. Security Council ballot. A formal vote to succeed Kofi Annan is scheduled for next Monday. Wolf Blitzer is off today. I'm John King, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Former Congressman Mark Foley now is in rehab and under investigation by the FBI and Florida officials. And Republican House leaders are engaged in damage control. House Speaker Dennis Hastert is calling computer messages Foley sent to a former congressional page, quote, "vile and repulsive." And Hastert says he didn't know about those specific messages until last week. But on Capitol Hill, questions are being raised about what top Republicans knew and when they knew it. Children's advocates also are raising red flags because Foley has been a leading voice in the fight to protect young people from sexual predators. Our Brian Todd is following that reaction to the Foley scandal. Brian?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John, in those hours after Mark Foley's resignation, crucial decisions had to be made. Members of Congress organizations associated with him had to figure out what to say. One of those is the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children that had worked with Foley on child predator legislation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (voice-over): Friday night the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children issues this statement, "Congressman Mark Foley's resignation is a great to loss to Florida and the nation. He has been a hard-working, dedicated and effective Congressman. He will be missed."
ERNIE ALLEN, NATL. CTR. MISSING & EXPLOITED CHILDREN: When additional details became available and we discovered that there was much more than we thought, we generated an update of that statement.
TODD: The next day, a much more toughly worded statement, calling reports on Foley deeply troubling and, "If it is determined that he has engaged in acts which have harmed children or put them in jeopardy, like any other person, he must be held accountable. If he has violated the law, he should be prosecuted." But another well- known children's advocate is outraged by the first statement.
MARC KLAAS, BEYONDMISSING.COM: This guy resigns because of inappropriate Internet communications with young boys and they don't even see that?
TODD: Marc Klaas who's led campaigns against child predators since his daughter was abducted and murdered in 1993, accuses the National Center of being too close with Congress and, in particular, Mark Foley.
KLAAS: He had an extremely cozy relationship with Ernie Allen and with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
TODD: Foley had a history with the group, had worked with the center to produce sweeping legislation to shield kids from predators. This picture from the signing ceremony last summer. President Bush shaking Foley's hand with John Walsh of "America's Most Wanted" beside them. Walsh is a co-founder of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. But on Klaas' charge of a cozy relationship --
ALLEN: We worked with Democrats and Republicans, we worked with the House and the Senate and that has always been our approach and will continue to be.
TODD: But when a parent, someone who goes to your website, who looks to your group for guidance, sees the first statement and says, wow, that's really -- what's going on here? How would you respond to that person?
ALLEN: I think what parents need to understand is that the statement reflected the facts as we knew them at the time. And when the facts changed, we changed the statement.
(END OF VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: So why issue that first statement at all? Allen says they were besieged with media calls on Friday and felt they had to be responsive. But he admits he probably issued that first statement too quickly. One important note, Marc Klaas has a longstanding dispute with the Center for Missing and Exploited Children, he accuses the center of stealing his idea for web-based flyers. Ernie Allen denies that, saying the center came up with the idea first. Also for transparency, last year CNN partnered with the National Center to run pictures and information about children missing from hurricane Katrina. John?
KING: Brian Todd for us. Not only the politicians asking the questions. Now one of the questions here is what's not clear at this point is if any laws have been broken. If Congressman Foley broke any laws or any one else involved. For more on that, we're joined by our senior Internet producer and legal analyst Alex Wellen. A lot of unknowns. So when someone says will there be a prosecution, we say --
ALEX WELLEN, SENIOR INTERNET PRODUCER: We say let's be careful because he hasn't been charged with anything federally or state. But there are a lot of issues, we're dealing with federal laws, state laws. Where did it happen, did it happen in Florida, Louisiana or elsewhere? Also, there are e-mails which are much more tame in comparison to some of those instant messages that we saw.
TODD: And among the questions is, federal officials look at this, state officials look at this. Then if they think they have anything, they decide which jurisdiction. How does that all play out?
WELLEN: Well, again, let's use an example. If it were Florida for example and everything took place in Florida, the message for example was sent from someone in Florida to someone in Florida, then theoretically Florida would have some jurisdiction. But if it's two states which is more likely the case or another jurisdiction, then it could very well implicate federal law and then either or both states.
KING: So in the one e-mail exchange we know about in great detail, then Congressman Foley allegedly corresponds with a 16-year- old boy, hey, how are you doing, what's going on, then asks him to send a picture. Is that a red flag?
WELLEN: Well, there are federal and state laws, so let's look at the federal for a moment. On the federal side, there's something called the communication decency act that deals with harassment and annoyance, it doesn't have a limitation to age, maybe that law. There are also laws that deal with obscenity. Is this obscene? It doesn't have to be a picture John, but it could still very well be obscene, based on the language. Finally, there are the state laws. And the state laws they really do vary if you're sending something harmful to minors and this person was 16 in Florida that makes you a minor, then you could very well prosecute under state law there.
KING: And the instant messages we know about and our understanding is there could be even more, but the ones we know about are incredibly graphic sexually, they're sent to young boys. Is that a different realm of the law?
WELLEN: It is like in a whole other world. If you look at those messages side by side with the e-mail, we're talking about something much, much more extreme, much, much more problematic. Many, many more unknowns. We don't know who, what their age was, what state. So that's when it's going to become important to look at the investigation.
KING: And let's talk quickly in closing about gathering evidence for all of this. We're talking about e-mail traffic, instant message traffic. I might delete them off the computer I used them on, but are they there? If these messages were sent, and there were additional messages, perhaps messages setting up conversations, are they somewhere they can be found?
WELLEN: I've worked with state officials, I've worked with federal officials, U.S. Secret Service, FBI, I've seen them get the most impossible things, things that are in fires, things that are thrown into the water, they are able to recover a remarkable amount of information. The thing I will say is that unless the material is written over again, so there's the content there, if it's written over again then it may very well not be there. But otherwise, they're pretty crafty at getting that information.
KING: Alex Wellen for us, helping us understand the parameters as the investigation is just beginning. Thank you very much.
WELLEN: Thank you, John.
KING: And there's a sense of deja vu in the scandal surrounding Congressman Mark Foley and his explicit communication with congressional pages. CNN senior analyst Jeff Greenfield reminds us a similar scandal rocked the capitol more than two decades ago.
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: John, it's October. Surprised? The most politically explosives ready to hit Washington last week wasn't what was in Bob Woodward's pages, it was those emails and communications between Mark Foley and a couple of congressional pages. And if you're looking for a clue about the political fallout from what the Republican leadership did or did not do, just look back 20 plus years or so.
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GREENFIELD (voice-over): In 1983 the House Ethics Committee revealed that two House members had been sexually involved with pages. Liberal Massachusetts Democrat Jerry Studs and conservative Illinois Republican Daniel Crane. Studds was involved with a male page, Crane with a female. Both were over the legal age of consent. Both congressmen were censured by the House but their responses and their political fates were very different. Republican Crane was repentant, tearfully apologized to his wife and family.
DANIEL CRANE: These have been the hardest days of my life, and I didn't want to bring any pain to my wife and family, which I have done.
GREENFIELD: As the rules require, he stood in the well of the House to receive his censure and faced his colleagues. Democrat Studds was unrepentant, said the relationship was legal and consensual. And when the House censured him, he turned his back on his colleagues as if to reject their censure.
JERRY STUDDS: Ultimately of course, my record in its entirety is a matter that will be judged by the people of my district.
GREENFIELD: The next year, Daniel Crane, who had been an outspoken advocate of family values, was soundly defeated by voters in his conservative district. Studds was re-elected handily and served in the House for more than a dozen years until his retirement. What's the relevance? Well, consider the political role today of social conservatives, like those who attended the recent family research council gathering in Washington. They fill the ranks of GOP turnout operations at election time. Some, like James Dobson of "Focus on the Family," have already expressed disappointment in how Republicans have treated their priorities like gay marriage and abortion. As the earlier scandals show, such conservatives are particularly likely to punish sexual misbehavior. And if they conclude the top Republican leaders did not pursue such misbehavior when they learned of it, the political consequences, diminished enthusiasm, lower turnouts, could be severe.
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GREENFIELD: The specifics of this issue are entangled in disputes. Did the Republican leadership see only the less-explicit e- mails? Was this all a set up for people looking for a political agenda to fulfill? But campaigns do not deal well with subtleties. If this issue convinces enough social conservatives that the Republican leadership has let them down, then all the calculations about next November, go right out the window. John?
KING: Jeff Greenfield, a look at history for us. And for the latest on this story and all the day's political news, you can check out CNN's political ticker, constantly updated throughout the day at cnn.com/ticker. Still to come, Bob Woodward writes extensively about Donald Rumsfeld in his new book. But what does the defense secretary think about the accounts? Especially the claims that some in the Bush administration secretly wanted him fired.
And in our 7:00 p.m. hour, yet another bombshell account from the book. Did the former Saudi ambassador to Washington give then candidate George W. Bush foreign policy advice as he ran for president? Our Zain Verjee explores that question. Stay with us.
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KING: It's the book that has Washington buzzing. Bob Woodward's "State of Denial" painting a very unflattering picture of the Bush administration and its handling of the war in Iraq. That book is now number one best seller on amazon.com. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is among those who come under particular scrutiny in the book, although he insists he's not paying much attention to the fuss. For more, we're joined by our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre. Jamie? JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well John, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says he hasn't read Bob Woodward's last two books and he doesn't plan to read this one either.
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MCINTYRE (voice-over): Monday finds Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld meeting with defense ministers in Managua, Nicaragua, even inspecting a volcano, far from the political eruption at home. Back in D.C., "The Washington Post" headline Bob Woodward's latest book excerpt, "Should he Stay" and ran a low angle picture of Rumsfeld looking imperious. But Rumsfeld told reporters traveling with him President Bush has given him, yet, another vote of confidence, something the White House promptly confirmed.
TONY SNOW, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think what the president simply wanted to do is, given all the press attention and everything that's been going on, to say, Don, I still have faith in you and I support you.
MCINTYRE: Rumsfeld, a former White House chief of staff himself, says it's perfectly understandable that Andy Card would want to make changes after Bush's reelection. In fact he told reporters, "At the end of the term I went up to Andy Card and Josh Bolton and said that no one is indispensable. And you ought to fashion your next term in the way that makes the most sense. That's not resigning, but it's certainly opening the door." If Rumsfeld ruffled feathers, he told CNN's Frank Sesno it's because he was doing the president's bidding.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Basically the president wanted things changed. I understand what his instructions and we have said about that task. I also understand that when you do change things that it's hard for people.
MCINTYRE: So when some of the president's men wanted to dump Rumsfeld, Bush vetoed the idea.
SNOW: You want to make sure that everybody's got fresh legs for a second term. And the president took a cold look at it and still supports Don Rumsfeld.
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MCINTYRE: In an interview with reporters traveling with him, Rumsfeld dismissed the allegation in Bob Woodward's book that at times he didn't return the phone calls of then national security adviser Condoleezza Rice. He said that's nonsense, they talked on the phone hundreds of time, virtually every day about all kinds of things. Wolf -- John, sorry.
KING: Wolf will do. Jamie McIntyre for us at the Pentagon. Jamie thank you very much.
And for more, be sure to watch "LARRY KING LIVE" tonight. Bob Woodward will join Larry to talk about his book "State of Denial." That's "LARRY KING LIVE" at 9:00 eastern right here on CNN. And up ahead, Jack Cafferty wants to know if members of Congress knew about Congressman Foley's sexually suggestive internet messages, what should the consequences be. Jack's standing by with "The Cafferty File."
And coming up in our 7:00 p.m. eastern hour, politics and a woman scorned. A high-profile candidate finds her marriage in the spotlight. CNN's Jeanne Moos takes a look, here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
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KING: Lou Dobbs is getting ready for his show right at the top of the hour. Lou, what are you working on?
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: John, thank you. Coming up at 6:00 p.m. eastern here on CNN, we'll have the latest for you on the e-mail scandal and Congressman Foley on Capitol Hill and the Amish school shooting in Pennsylvania today. Also, Congress congratulates itself on a plan to build a 700-mile fence along our southern border, but they failed to take action to stop one of the biggest causes of illegal immigration in this country. We'll have that special report.
And Houston, Texas, changing its policy toward illegal immigration. But will the policy change do anything to satisfy critics who say Houston is simply a sanctuary city for illegal aliens. That special report and members of Congress pass a huge defense spending bill, stuffed with money to pay for pet projects, while our troops suffer from shortages of vital equipment. All of that and a great deal more coming up at the top of the hour. Please join us. John, back to you.
KING: We'll be watching Lou. Thank you very much. And more now in on the scandal surrounding former Congressman Mark Foley and his explicit messages to a former congressional page. CNN's Zain Verjee is here with details of some of those communications. Zain?
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: John, "abcnews.com" has published Internet communications and says they're between Congressman Mark Foley and a teen. "ABC News" says that Foley used the screen name MAF54. "ABC News" reports on its website Foley repeatedly tried to meet with the teen. We're about to show you some of that communication, but note that CNN has not yet verified that these are actual comments from the congressman.
Foley, I miss you lots since San Diego. Teen, yeah, I can't wait till D.C. Foley responds with a smile symbol. Teen, did you pick a night for dinner? Foley, not yet but likely Friday. Teen, ok, I'll plan for Friday then. Foley, that will be fun. Here's another alleged internet communication according to "abcnews.com" between Foley and the teen. Foley, I want to see you. Teen, like I said, not till February, then we'll go to dinner. Foley, and then what happens? Teen, we eat, we drink, who knows, hang out late into the night. Foley, and? Teen, I don't know. Foley, don't know what. Teen, hmm, I have the feeling that you're fishing here. I'm not sure what I'd be comfortable with, we'll see.
Now in the next hour Foley's attorney is expected to comment about these and other e-mails that Foley has had with a congressional page. Foley has resigned his seat in the House and he's undergoing treatment, John, for alcoholism.
KING: Zain Verjee with the latest on that developing story. Zain, thank you very much.
Up next, Jack Cafferty is wondering if members of Congress knew about Congressman Foley's sexually explicit messages. What should the consequences be? Jack's standing by with "The Cafferty File." You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
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KING: Here's a look at some of the hotshots coming in from the "Associated Press," pictures likely to be in your newspapers tomorrow. In Baghdad, a man comforts an upset woman after a roadside bomb destroyed an apartment building.
Lebanon, a boy holds a toy gun in front of real Lebanese troops patrolling the southern part of the country. In Russia, President Vladimir Putin gets his blood pressure checked during a visit to a mobile medical center. No word on the results.
And in Garden City, Kansas, a young giraffe uses its tongue to reach out and grab a leaf. And that's today's "Hot Shots", pictures often worth a thousand words. Time now to check back in with Jack Cafferty and "The Cafferty File." Jack's in New York.
JACK CAFFERTY: John, I'm really glad you showed us those pictures. The question is -- this is very serious stuff. If members of Congress, including House Speaker Dennis Hastert, knew about Congressman Foley's sexual suggestive e-mails, what should the consequences be for them?
John in British Columbia, "It's disgusting to see Dennis Hastert and his Republican cronies falling all over themselves in righteous indignation over the conduct of Mr. Foley. They are upset because they've been found out, protecting one of their own. Hastert's anger and call for an FBI investigation is pure hypocrisy." Steve in Kirkland, Washington, "Hastert and friends should be interrogated at length, preferably using the techniques they just said were ok for the CIA and the Army to use."
Glenn in Seattle, "Checking into an alcohol rehab center is the wrong location for ex-Congressman Foley. He should be in a facility that treats sexual deviants, specifically, pederasty. This would be an excellent opportunity for those Republicans and far-right Christians who claim that homosexuality is a lifestyle that can be cured to test that theory on one of their own." Judy writes, "Living in South Carolina we are bombarded with election year Republican family values campaigns. I wonder whose family and whose values they mean." Paul writes, "Jack, it's now official. You ask the most selective and biased questions in TV news. If you're not already aware of this, it's time for you to check into rehab." And Dorothy in Ohio, "I believe anyone who had previous knowledge of this man's conduct with children should be made to step down from their positions. They're all guilty of aiding and abetting Mr. Foley. As parents and grandparents, I would think they would be outraged. But apparently they approve of this type of behavior since they've been aware for several months. Mr. Hastert is nothing but a fake."
John? Oh, if you didn't see your e-mails here, you can go to cnn.com/cafferty while we post some more of these online. We got a lot of responses to the e-mail question, particularly this hour's. John?
KING: That's my question Jack. We asked a lot of questions and you police these e-mails about things that happen in Washington. People don't like Washington, but is this something from the tone other than the language in them, is this something that hits a little closer to home?
CAFFERTY: Well, you can sense a little more outrage and revulsion over the way that one, Foley allegedly behaved with a bunch of 16 - these are pages that are sent there in good faith by families all over the country, to presumably go to our nation's capital and learn how the government works. To be solicited by a Congressman and then for presumably the leadership of that governmental body to be somewhat aware of what was going on and do nothing, is repulsive to people as it should be.
KING: Jack Cafferty tracking this for us. This story will continue to go on for days, if not weeks. We're here every weekday afternoon from 4:00 to 6:00, we'll be back in just an hour. Right now though, time for "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT," Lou?
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