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North Korea Follows Up Nuclear Test With Threat To Fire A Nuclear Missile; Explosions Rocking Southeast Baghdad Appear To Be Centered At Munitions Depot; Kirk Fordham Will Testify Before House Ethics Committee; Interview with Scott Ritter

Aired October 10, 2006 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: To our viewers, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM where new pictures and information are arriving all of the time. Standing by, CNN reporters across the United States and around the world to bring you today's top stories.
Happening now: North Korea threatens to fire a nuclear missile. We'll go one-on-one with the Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and we'll hear why Senators John McCain and Hillary Rodham Clinton are now in a war of words over who's to blame for the North Korea crises.

Former Iraq weapons inspector, meanwhile, warning the U.S. is headed down a dangerous path when it comes to Iran. Might the U.S. start another war? I'll ask Scott Ritter. He's the author of a new book, "Target Iran".

More fallout coming in from the Mark Foley scandal. The House Speaker Dennis Hastert tells what he thinks should happen to anyone caught in a possible cover-up.

I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

First our top story. A new threat from North Korea today and new details emerging about what that country says was a nuclear test, with one U.S. government official telling CNN experts believe something went wrong with that underground explosion. Another saying a second test would not come as a surprise.

We're following all the latest developments. CNN's Brian Todd is standing by, but let's go to the Pentagon, our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the latest -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the U.S. knows more than it's saying about North Korea's nuclear capabilities. In fact, CNN has learned that before the recent test CIA Director Mike Hayden told some people that North Korea's statement should be regarded not as a threat, but as an announcement.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): While the intelligence is not yet conclusive, the United States believes North Korea did in fact test a nuclear device in a northeast mountain tunnel Monday, and that something went wrong, resulting in a much smaller-than-expected blast according to a government official with access to classified U.S. intelligence.

The official tells CNN that North Korea informed China before the test, it intended to conduct a test in the four kiloton range. But based on seismic monitoring the U.S. puts the actual yield at one-half a kiloton, or 500 tons.

In fact, some evidence indicates it may have been as small as 200 tons. That strongly suggests at least a partial failure. A North Korean diplomat is quoted in a South Korean paper as admitting the test was on a smaller scale than expected, but insisting it was still a success.

PETER ZIMMERMAN, KING'S COLLEGE, LONDON: You don't tell your people, by the way, the dear leader's nuclear experts goofed, and we really didn't get the yield we wanted. You tell everybody that whatever you got that's what you wanted to get.

MCINTYRE: The U.S. cautions it has not yet confirmed it was a nuclear blast. Air samples collected by specially equipped U.S. Air Force planes flying out of Japan, will help provide that answer, looking for tell-tale signs of any radio activity. But Pentagon sources say the U.S. military has only a limited role to play in responding to the North Korean test.

There are, sources say, no plans for military action because there are no good targets that could set back North Korea's nuclear program without sparking all-out war on the Korean Peninsula, something that would risk an estimated one million casualties.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Meanwhile another U.S. official tells CNN that North Korea could conduct a second test even though they've seen no signs of preparation for that. I won't say we would expect it, he said, but it would not come as a total surprise -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Jamie, thank you.

Nuclear or not, that test is sparking an increasing amount of finger-pointing as politicians try to place blame for the overall North Korean crisis. Leading the charges two potential presidential candidates, Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton and John McCain. CNN's Brian Todd is joining us live with this part of the story -- Brian.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, as Jamie just reported experts are still trying to determine if that test blast had nuclear strength, but here in the U.S. those with presidential ambitions are in no mood to wait.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice-over): The political infighting in the U.S. over who lost North Korea has gone nuclear.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: Some of the reason we are facing this danger is because of the failed policies of the Bush administration, and I regret deeply their failure to deal with the threat posed by North Korea.

TODD: Specifically, Senator Clinton's aides tell CNN she believes the Bush administration should have done more than rely on six-nation talks that have so far failed to get Kim Jong-il to give up his nuclear ambitions. The man who may run for president against her in two years has this to say.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I would remind Senator Clinton, and other Democrats critical of the Bush administration policies, that the framework agreement, her husband's administration negotiated was a failure. We had a carrot and no sticks policy that only encouraged bad behavior. When one carrot didn't work we offered another. Now we are facing the consequences.

TODD: Earlier, President Clinton's former envoy to North Korea was pressed by Wolf Blitzer about that administration's one-on-one talks with North Korea and:

BLITZER: Was that a huge blunder to offer the North Koreans that kind of assistance, nuclear assistance, humanitarian assistance?

GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: No, it was not a blunder. In fact, it was a success for eight years because of the agreed framework agreement negotiated by the Clinton administration. The North Koreans did not develop any nuclear weapons.

TODD: But security experts say North Korea likely would have pursued this program regardless of the approach.

MICHAEL GREEN, CTR. FOR STRATEGIC AND INT'L. STUDIES: Kim Il Sung, the Great Lead, the father of Kim Jong-il, the current leader, saw what nuclear weapons did for Mao Zedong in China four decades ago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD: And Chris Hill, the current U.S. negotiator for North Korea points out that the North Koreans built what he calls their first ramshackle nuclear reactor back in the '70s.

We've been in contact with officials in former President Bill Clinton's office and spoke with them again, just a few moments ago. They did not respond immediately to Senator McCain. We do hope to get later this evening, Wolf.

BLITZER: We'll be standing by for that, Brian. Thank you.

And I spoke about all of this, just a short while ago with the Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. I asked her if there's any evidence that Clinton administration policies back in the '90s helped North Korea build nuclear weapons.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Oh I think North Korea has been persistent and has been consistent in pursuing this nuclear weapons program for decades. Now, it's going to have to be stopped. And the international community is speaking with one voice, very loudly, because the North Koreans crossed an important line when they proclaimed that they had conducted a nuclear test.

BLITZER: Did they conduct a nuclear test?

RICE: Well, we're still trying to evaluate what really happened here. And I think it will take a little while to evaluate it, but we have to take the claim seriously, because it's a political claim, if nothing else.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: We'll have more of my interview with the secretary of state later this hour. I'll ask her about North Korea's latest threat to launch a nuclear missile.

There's a development happening right now on that fire, that explosion in Baghdad. Let's go back to CNN's Betty Nguyen. She's watching that story for us -- Betty.

BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, we brought it to you, just a few minutes ago. We do have new video in of these explosions just southeast of Baghdad.

Here's what we know so far. We understand this was at an ammunitions depot. And a fire occurred there. Look at this video coming in to CNN. You can see these explosions. We understand that these explosions, according to the Associated Press, went on for at least a half an hour.

Again, what happened, a fire occurred at this ammunitions depot, setting off the explosions that you see there. They could be felt miles away. They're trying to determine what caused this fire which, of course, set off those explosions. But at this point no one has been reported injured. We'll stay on top of it for you, Wolf.

BLITZER: These are live pictures, Betty, we're showing our viewers now of the skyline.

NGUYEN: Still, lit up.

BLITZER: Iraq, it's after midnight now, over there. But you see this huge fire that seems to be out of control.

NGUYEN: And they've been going off for the past 30 minutes or so. Again, these explosions being felt miles away. So a lot going on there and we need to get to the bottom of exactly what started that fire.

BLITZER: We'll stay on top of the story, Betty. Thank you.

There's another story looming large in Washington and beyond, the scandal involving disgraced former Republican Congressman Mark Foley. There are new developments today as key figures tell their stories, both publicly and privately. Our Congressional Correspondent Dana Bash is watching this very closely. She's got all the latest developments -- Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, CNN learned today that Kirk Fordham, Mark Foley's former chief of staff, who says, he tried to warn the House speaker's office about Foley's conduct with pages long ago, will testify before the House Ethics Committee expected to be on Thursday.

Now that, as we heard from the House speaker for the first time in five days and the FBI heard from a key witness.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH (voice-over): In Oklahoma City Jordan Edmund, a former page, who may have received sexually explicit instant messages from Mark Foley told his story to the FBI.

STEPHEN JONES, EDMUND'S ATTORNEY: Jordan answered all of their questions, relying upon his memory as it exists.

BASH: In Illinois House Speaker Dennis Hastert stood in front of a graveyard and told reporters he doesn't think his aides tried to hide Foley's inappropriate contact with pages, but said, if anyone did, they'll be fired.

REP. DENNIS HASTERT (R-IL), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: They'll be under oath and we'll find out. If they did cover something up then they should not continue to have their jobs.

BASH: Some GOP officials, and lawmakers, blame Hastert's staff for bungling the Foley matter, allegedly not informing the speaker about a questionable e-mail aides knew about at least a year ago.

HASTERT: In 20/20 hindsight, probably you could do everything a little bit better.

BASH: Meanwhile, another Republican lawmaker Jim Kolbe admitted he passed along, but did not follow up on, a complaint from a former page about Mark Foley, five or six years ago.

Kolbe said the former page contacted his office about a Foley e- mail that made him, quote, "uncomfortable". The Arizona Republican's statements said he recommended informing Foley's office, but Kolbe did not confront Foley himself.

"I assumed that it ceased since the former page never raised the issue again with my office," Kolbe said.

Kolbe was a page in 1958 and he made a point of noting his affinity for the program and desired to make it a meaningful experience for the pages.

"I visit with pages at the back of the chamber to explain politics and parliamentary procedures on the House floor," Kolbe said.

A spokeswoman confirmed to CNN Kolbe allows pages to stay in his Washington home when he is away. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: Kolbe says he also informed the Office of the House Clerk about the complaint he received about Foley. The clerk at the time was Jeff Trandle (ph), somebody who we already know is expected to be central in this case because CNN is told he observed, and heard about, several instances long ago where Foley was acting inappropriately towards pages.

Now he also issued his first public statement today, Wolf, through a lawyer saying that he will cooperate fully with the FBI and the House Ethics Committee -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Dana, thank you. Dana Bash reporting.

As we head into the crucial midterm elections stay up to date with the CNN political ticker. The daily news service on CNN.com gives you an inside view of the day's political stories. You can see for yourself. Go to CNN.com/ticker.

Jack Cafferty is in New York with the Cafferty file -- Jack.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: The debate over illegal immigration in this country is beginning to resemble a dog chasing its tail.

The federal government refuses to enforce existing laws against illegal immigration. Somewhere between 12 and 20 million illegal aliens have overrun this country. Despite all of the talk about the war on terror and national security, the Bush administration turns a blind eye toward a major threat to our national security, as well as a major problem for our domestic economy and social services. Cities and towns all across this country are being overwhelmed by these people.

There was a front-page story over the weekend in the New Jersey paper, "The Record", about the town of Riverside, New Jersey. It's overrun with illegal aliens and can't take anymore. So the town is trying to do something about it. It's passed laws against hiring or renting to them.

Here's the irony. Riverside New Jersey is being taken to court by groups who say their local laws are unconstitutional. They say immigration law is a federal matter and it's not up to the states or local communities. So the federal government refuses to enforce the law, and if local communities try to do something about it they're dragged into court.

The upshot of all of this is nobody's doing anything about illegal aliens and they just keep coming. A million a year, year after year, after year.

Here's the question. If the federal government refuses to enforce the nation's immigration laws, should local communities be allowed to do so? E-mail your thoughts to CaffertyFile@CNN.com or go to CNN.com/CaffertyFile.

BLITZER: Thank you, Jack. We'll do that.

Up ahead, we'll look at Washington's other nuclear crises, the standoff with Iran. Why is former United Nations weapons inspector Scott Ritter worried that U.S. is stumbling blindly toward another conflict? Also, more of my interview with the Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. How does she react to a North Korean threat to launch a nuclear missile?

Plus, the Foley scandal, the impact on the election only four weeks away. We'll talk about it in our "Strategy Session" with Donna Brazile and J.C. Watts. Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We're following this story, very worrisome story in Baghdad. A huge explosion has just rocked the southern part of the city. I want you to watch the center part of the screen. Look at that. You couldn't hear it, but you really saw that explosion erupt.

It looks like one explosion is sort of leading to another. There it is right there.

We're trying to get more information on what was involved. We're told, though, that some weapons stockpiles may be exploding on the scene. This is an area, as I said, in southern Baghdad.

A fire broke out at what's called a forward operating base. It's called Falcon. According to the U.S. military the explosions were from ammunition cooking off, as they say, in this explosion. Multinational forces are in Iraq , the U.S. and it's coalition partners say, they have no reports of casualties -- at least not yet.

We'll watch this and update you as we get more information on the explosion, but, obviously, a huge explosion is rocking the southern part of the Iraqi capital right now.

Meanwhile, the Bush administration says Iran, Iraq's neighbor, is pursuing nuclear weapons, but is that based on a false premise? My next guest says, yes. Suggests misinformation may be coloring the Iran situation similar to how a false premise helped lead to the war in Iraq.

Scott Ritter is the author of a new book entitled "Target Iran: The Truth About the White House's Plans for Regime Change".

Scott is with us here in THE SITUATION ROOM. Thanks for being here.

SCOTT RITTER, FMR. U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Thanks for having me.

BLITZER: Let's talk a little bit about you book. Do you not believe Iran is pursuing a nuclear bomb?

RITTER: I would say that no one can say this with absolute certainty. I don't believe that the Bush administration has made a sound case that Iran is pursuing a nuclear weapons program, a case backed up with fact.

In fact, to counter this, when you take a look at those who are mandated to investigate, the International Atomic Energy Agency, both in terms of the reports that they have released, and the people that I've spoken to, while they remain skeptical about Iran -- you know, the fact that Iran might be hiding some facts -- they state right out there is no evidence whatsoever that Iran is pursuing a nuclear weapons program.

BLITZER: But the International Atomic Energy Agency, in the most recent report, the Director-General Muhammad ElBaradei, what they said is they're not taking steps consistent with their obligations under the nuclear nonproliferation treaty. They can't reject, they can't categorically say Iran isn't pursuing a nuclear program.

RITTER: Correct, but that doesn't mean they are pursuing a nuclear weapons program. What it means is that we have a diplomatic crisis, something that needs to be resolved, diplomatically.

BLITZER: But that's what the Bush administration says they're trying to do.

RITTER: Well, how can you resolve something diplomatically if you refuse to engage one-on-one with the parties that you're concerned about? We continue to say this is a European issue. The Europeans need to engage, but when you take a look at what's happening behind the scenes, with what they're doing at the IAEA, with the European Union, we're undermining --

BLITZER: Because the Bush administration, and the Condoleezza Rice, the president, they have said publicly that if the Iranians live up to their obligations under the nuclear nonproliferation treaty with the U.N. Security Council has said, and stop enriching uranium under these uncontrolled conditions, they would establish that kind of direct dialogue with the government in Tehran.

RITTER: Iran's counter is that the nonproliferation treaty, particularly Article IV, gives them every right under international law to enrich.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: It does. They can enrich uranium under -- but, there are other obligations under what the U.N. Security Council is asking the Iranians to do as well as what the IAEA is asking.

RITTER: There's a difference between what they're asking Iran to do and what Iran is obligated to do. Everyone wants Iran to pursue what's call the "additional protocol" and even measures beyond this. This is special terminology for special inspection procedures, etc cetera. Iran says they will do this if the European Union and the United States acknowledge their right, under Article IV, to enrich uranium.

The U.S. position is not one spinning centrifuge, no enriching.

BLITZER: You were just there, in Iran?

RITTER: Yes.

BLITZER: You just came back. Because a lot of our viewers would remember your skepticism about the rationale of going war with Iraq , while Saddam Hussein was still in power. And at the time you were widely ridiculed, you were harassed, to put it mildly, for your views, at the time. A lot of those views turned out to be accurate given the lack of weapons of mass destruction, that were found in Iraq.

So you speak with some credibility. Let me read to you from your book "Target Iran," page 205. "Any American ground invasion of Iran would be doomed to fail. Faced with such a disaster the United States would have no choice, but to escalate the conflict along military lines, which means to engage Iran with nuclear weapons."

Most of the military analysts I've spoken to have suggested that to deal militarily with Iran they wouldn't be using ground forces. They would launch air power, cruise missiles, to try to destroy Iran's nuclear facilities or fly big bombers over Iran. There's no consideration, serious, that is to going into a country with what, 60 million people.

RITTER: First of all, I disagree with them 100 percent. I have no doubt --

BLITZER: You think they're seriously thinking of a ground invasion given the problems, what's happened next door in Iraq?

RITTER: I know that they are considering. There are plans in place for putting American troops on the ground. It's not the first option. The first option is, of course, the air strike, the massive aerial bombardment to achieve a number of things. A, to nullify the Iranian nuclear capacity; but B, to destabilize the Iranian regime to the point that it facilitates regime change.

RITTER: The problem is once you initiate this aerial campaign, and you do not succeed in either verifiably nullifying the nuclear program or B, undermining and destabilizing the regime. What's your next step? Because you've already opened up the bottle, because you've already initiated.

The next step will be limited incursion of American troops to achieve and reinforce destabilization, and when that fails when 40,000 American troops on the ground what do you do when the situation deteriorates to a point that they are truly at risk.

Because as you pointed out, it's a nation of 60 to 70 million people. It's not going to roll over and play dead. What do you do when you start bombing, you put troops on the ground, and you're still not winning?

BLITZER: And you're convinced that that will eventually lead to what? A U.S. nuclear strike against Iran?

RITTER: Again, the Bush administration has articulated a nuclear posture, a nuclear policy that allows for the preemptive use in a nuclear weapons in a non-nuclear environment if the president determines that American forces are placed at unacceptable risk. I would say that having 40,000 troops in Iran, in a deteriorating situation, represents the kind of unacceptable risk.

BLITZER: While I have you here. Give me your thoughts on the nuclear standoff unfolding now with North Korea.

RITTER: I think it's a manifestation the fact that the Bush administration has an incoherent policy when it comes to nonproliferation. Look, North Korea was a signatory to the non- proliferation treaty. There was a period of time where there were weapons inspectors in North Korea, doing a job. The Bush administration, again, because it seeks to isolate and destabilize the North Korean regime --

BLITZER: The Clinton administration gave the North Koreans, basically everything. A lot of assistance, promises of light water reactors, for peaceful purposes and they were lying and cheating throughout those entire years developing, on a separate track, a nuclear bomb.

RITTER: I'm not here to either praise the Clinton administration policies or condone the North Korean activities. I think we need to talk about the Bush administration because they're in power today.

They have an incoherent policy when it comes to nonproliferation. They pushed North Korea out of the nonproliferation treaty, they helped push North Korea out. Maybe North Korea wanted to be pushed out. But now they don't have a strategy how to deal with a nuclear North Korea. They belittled it.

Condoleezza Rice said they're making noise. Well, they made a lot of noise, about a kiloton's worth of noise. And now they may put that kiloton on a missile and that missile could cause us serious problems.

BLITZER: Scott Ritter, has written a very provocative book, entitled, "Target Iran: The Truth About the White House's Plans for Regime Change." I suspect you'll be sparking controversy with this book as you did your earlier book, "Iraq Confidential" and everything leading up to the war in Iraq , three and a half years ago or so. Scott Ritter, thanks for coming in.

RITTER: Thank you.

Coming up, we're following a developing story out of Iraq, very worrisome information. The explosions that we're seeing right now during the interview with Scott Ritter, we've seen even more explosions at an ammunition supply point in the southern part of the Iraqi capital. This is huge. We'll go live to Baghdad in just a few moments.

Also, more of my interview with the Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. I'll ask her to make a direct statement to the North Korean leader Kim Jong-il, who is watching, we think. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: You're in THE SITUATION ROOM where new pictures and information are arriving all the time.

Happening now: There's breaking news that we're following in Baghdad; rocked by a series of huge explosions at an ammunitions site. We'll go live to Baghdad in a moment.

Tensions also rising in the North Korean nuclear crisis with a new threat reported from Pyongyang, but the United States is standing firm and warning of consequences for North Korea. I'll talk about it with the Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

And one of the former congressional pages at the center of the Mark Foley scandal is interviewed by the FBI. An attorney for Jordan Edmund says his client didn't get a subpoena and hasn't been asked to return. He says he also expects to talk to House investigators.

I'm Wolf Blitzer, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

But first to breaking news we're following in Baghdad. Arwa Damon is standing by there. Jamie McIntyre is at the Pentagon. Arwa, what do we know about this huge explosion that's rocking the southern part of the Iraqi capital?

ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, what we know right now is actually very little. What we have heard from the U.S. military is that a fire started at an ammunition dump at a base in southwestern Baghdad. This is a small base that's not much bigger than about maybe half a mile by half a mile. And these explosions were huge. I mean, huge.

We could not even begin to start counting them. They shook the very roof that I'm standing on and they continued for over an hour. We saw a huge fire raging which you can see in the images that were broadcast from here as well and it was just one detonation after the next. It actually took quite some time for all of the pieces to start to come together.

The U.S. military finally releasing information that they believe it was a fire that began at an ammunition dump that was cooking off ammunition that was there. The question is, though, Wolf, was this an accident or was this an insurgent attack that actually started this fire?

BLITZER: Arwa, it's called the forward operating base, falcon. Have you ever been there in your various embed operations?

DAMON: Yes, Wolf, I've been there once and it essentially is in this area that actually is known as being -- it's located at the tip of what's called the triangle of death. It's in an area that's called Al Dora, it's in southwestern Baghdad. It's a fairly mixed, very volatile neighborhood. It's a small base. It's a forward operating base. A lot of these bases are smaller than the other bigger locations that we see in this country, generally home to a smaller number of troops -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Any idea how many U.S. troops, coalition forces might be based there because this explosion looks like it's covering a pretty huge area and even though no casualties have yet been reported I'm just looking at the pictures and I'm very worried.

DAMON: Well, Wolf, the last time I was there it was home to a company of U.S. troops which is generally a little over a hundred troops. Now, that number can vary. It really does depend, but yes, you know looking at the pictures that you're seeing and what we saw from our rooftop, the explosions that we felt, it is very troubling.

BLITZER: Just give our viewers a sense from where you are to this base, you can see the explosions even though, how many miles away would this Falcon -- this forward operating base be?

DAMON: It's about four miles away from where we are and this flame that arose from these explosions was just huge burning over the Baghdad skyline. And from four miles away, I have to say, Wolf, the explosions shook the entire building that we're in.

BLITZER: And we're showing our viewers now some new video that we're just getting in and the impact of this explosion four miles away. You could feel it where you are. Anything that the Iraqi media have said about this or is the information so sketchy right now the only thing we're getting is this little statement from the U.S. military?

DAMON: Well, the Iraqi media broadcast the pictures and also al- Iraqiya, which is the state-owned TV channel here, was also running breaking news saying that a fire had broken out at an ammunition dump at a U.S. base. Basically reporting what was said in the U.S. military statement. We did speak with the Iraqi police, however, they are as of now and they have checked with the hospitals reporting no other casualties. So that is pretty much what we know right now from the Iraqi side, Wolf.

BLITZER: You know I just want to show our viewers who may just be joining us right now, this explosion that occurred just a little while ago in the southern part of Baghdad at this U.S. forward operating base called Falcon. There it is. A huge explosion rocking the Iraqi capital. You could feel it at least four miles away where Arwa is located right now. Let's go to the Pentagon. Jamie McIntyre is our senior Pentagon correspondent. Jamie what are you hearing from sources there?

MCINTYRE: Well, Wolf, they're basically confirming what they've said there, that this indeed started in a fire at this ammunition depot at the forward operating base. And of course you know you couldn't have a worse place to have a fire than a fireworks factory or an ammunition depot and you've seen the pyrotechnics that have resulted. It's amazing if this holds up that the U.S. military reports that there have been no casualties at this point. They said they've taken every precaution to just simply allow the --

BLITZER: Jamie, I'll interrupt you because you're looking at these live pictures and even as you were speaking, there was another huge explosion. You saw that fireball going up. These are live pictures we're showing our viewers from this U.S. military base in southern Baghdad where one explosion is coming in multiple streams right after another.

MCINTYRE: It's creating a chain reaction. You can see again the term the military uses cooking off. It sounds kind of benign, but it can be quite dangerous particularly with the amount of munitions that are involved here. And you can see from the blinding flashes that there's a significant amount of ordinance exploding. Again, the U.S. military says that they have taken the precautions to clear the area, but there's no -- this is not a fire that you can fight.

You can't go in and pour water on this kind of thing. You just have to wait for it to finish and at the end of day we'll see when morning comes, probably. We'll see exactly what the effect has been. But it's obviously an extremely dangerous situation and the fact that the U.S. military says that there has been no casualties at this point is really amazing.

BLITZER: And there's no way of knowing whether this was a fire that just started, an explosion that just started by accident or whether insurgents may have played a role in creating this chain reaction.

MCINTYRE: It could have been the result of an attack. It could have been the result of an accident. It could have been the result of sabotage on the inside. That's something that an investigation will have to try to determine.

But of course, when you have this much ordinance and munitions going off and creating the damage that that's going to be creating, it's going to be extremely difficult to piece together a crime scene as it were, to see what exactly happened and what sparked this massive burn off of ammunition at this forward base. And you can see it's far from over -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Stand by, Jamie. Arwa Damon is in Baghdad. Arwa, these pictures, I don't know if you can see what's going on from your vantage point but our viewers can -- look at that. There's one explosion after another and they're getting seemingly even more powerful even as we watch these pictures unfold right now. Can you feel and hear and see those explosions from your vantage point about four miles away?

DAMON: We can still hear them, Wolf, and feel them slightly. Again, they are not right now, to us at least standing here as powerful as the initial detonations were, but while we were listening to Jamie talking, we could definitely still hear them. They do sound a lot fainter though and a lot further away to us from our vantage point here.

BLITZER: There they are, they're still going. The U.S. clearly had a lot of ammunition at this site there and it looks like one explosion triggering the next explosion. A lot of weaponry going up right now at this forward operating base that's called Falcon. Arwa, you were there and based on your recollection there were about a hundred U.S. troops there, but were there many Iraqi forces, other coalition forces as well?

DAMON: Wolf, at the time that I was there, there were not. However, you know, things do change here very often. It is very likely especially with the operations that we have going on right now that are really bringing together U.S. and Iraqi troops, that there were Iraqi forces there at that time. Of course that is just speculation at this point. Again, all we really have to go on right here is this one U.S. military statement that came out saying that it was a fire that began at this ammunition dump.

However, if this was an ammunition dump and what they have there is based on ammunition they've collected from raids, collected from perhaps IEDs that they have found, I mean we're talking about a lot of very dangerous materials. We're talking 155 millimeter mortar shells, we're talking all sorts of ammunition that the insurgents tend to use against U.S. forces here that could have all been collected at this one location, Wolf.

BLITZER: And this is an area that's heavily populated, I take it in the southwestern part of the Iraqi capital. You pointed out it's an area that's known as the triangle of death given the fact that there's a mixed Sunni-Shia residency there. It's not something that people can simply go in there, firefighters could go in there and start dealing with it. This potentially is posing a really enormous threat to all the residents in the area as well.

DAMON: Absolutely, and it is -- al Dora is a very populated area. In fact, it's kind of middle class under the times of Saddam Hussein, at least it was known as being middle class. It's been the scene of multiple attacks in the past and it's always a challenge here for firefighters to move around. Of course being that it is a U.S. military base they will have their own plan in place, perhaps even firefighters on that base to be able to deal with this kind of a population.

But if it has spilled outside of the confines of the base and is affecting the civilian population, that is going to poise a great challenge to Iraqi security forces and to Iraqi firefighters that are going to try to get down to that area to contain the damage as much as possible. But again, what we do know now from the Iraqi emergency police who have said that they did make calls to all of the hospitals in that area, no reports of casualties just yet Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, let's hope it stays that way. But it looks enormous. Jamie McIntyre is getting information from his sources at the Pentagon.

Jamie, as you look at these pictures and these multiple explosions one after another after another. What do you think?

MCINTYRE: Well, you know obviously this is a serious situation. The Pentagon obviously is getting the information the same way we are. In fact, they're probably looking at some of these same live pictures on television sets around the Pentagon. We should mention that the soldiers who are based there, we believe are from the 4th infantry division and we're told a spokesman from the 4th infantry division will put out a further statement soon, beyond what we've already been told is that this was an ammunition supply point, ASP as they call them in the military, at this forward operating base.

So they would have had a huge stockpile of munitions there as Arwa explained. And you know what has happened is once one of these gets underway and it starts setting off sympathetic explosions, you know, ancillary explosions, it's a chain reaction that you really can't stop until it's over.

It's just too dangerous to go anywhere near that. The multinational forces in Iraq say they are attempting to take every precaution to protect both the soldiers and the surrounding population as this ammunition cooks off is the term they use.

But it is an extremely, you know, dangerous situation, you know volatile is literally the case, when you are talking about these kind of munitions. And there's really nothing they can do at this point except try to make sure they've isolated the area and to wait for all of the ammunition to cook off.

BLITZER: Where is the 4th infantry division assuming that the troops who are there, the U.S. forces who are there at this forward operating base, Falcon, where are they headquartered based?

MCINTYRE: Well the 4th infantry division has been -- a brigade from the 4th infantry division has been deployed in the Baghdad area. It's one of the more dangerous areas of Iraq, obviously, with the offensive underway now to try to retake the city. And obviously we have significant forces in the Baghdad area and in the al Anbar Province, U.S. military does. And this is just one of the small forward operating bases.

But you can see it has a significant amount of ammunition, it's something they use a lot of and that they store. And of course the regulations for storing ammunition require all kinds of precautions. The U.S. military has all kinds of procedures to avoid this kind of situation. So again, without speculating we have no idea whether this was something that was caused by accident or by some hostile act.

BLITZER: And we're standing by for a statement and a little bit more information from the U.S. military. Let's go back to Arwa in Baghdad. Arwa, we see these flashes. There it is again, every few seconds another huge flash which means that more weaponry or ammunition or explosives simply detonating and causing what we see right in the middle of the screen right there, one explosion after another.

It's almost like a firecracker although this is a relatively sizable area now that is engulfed in flames and explosions. Even though you're four miles away, you can see this, you can feel it.

DAMON: That's right, Wolf, we can. In fact, just as you were speaking with Jamie, again, we saw more flashes, again we felt more tremors on our building. Which is like you just mentioned four miles away and I cannot emphasize how large these explosions were at first when all this ammunition started cooking off. Shaking our building and we're four miles away, you can only just really begin to imagine what residents in that area are going through, what they are possibly thinking might be going on in their neighborhood.

These are incredibly volatile times especially in the capital of Baghdad and for something like this to be happening for the entire capital, especially the central part and then the southwestern part where al Dora is located. For these explosions to be felt throughout, that is definitely at least terrifying for the population here. In fact, we could hear helicopters going overhead right now, Wolf.

BLITZER: Whoa! Look at that one. The spoke that's coming from these explosions Arwa, if the wind is blowing towards you, pretty soon if not already you're going to start smelling what is the residue from these explosions. Is the wind blowing toward you?

DAMON: Actually, Wolf, not just yet is my best guess. Where I'm standing right now, my direct vantage point is not that specific location. I can see it kind of -- I guess if I was standing behind the camera facing the other direction I would be able to have a better vantage point as to exactly what is going right now. But on my walk up here to this roof we could not smell it just yet, but I do have to say the traditional smell of Baghdad is definitely of metal burning and that is just the way things are here right now.

BLITZER: And it's approaching what, 2 a.m. in Baghdad right now. Clearly, the middle of the night if people were sleeping, guess what? This is interrupting their sleep. Very, very worrisome developments because it doesn't look like these explosions are at all ending. We're showing our viewers these live pictures -- our camera showing what's going on in southern Baghdad.

DAMON: That's right. It's got to be very trying for the people that are here. Remember, they're living in such a difficult time right now. There are explosions here that occur nonstop and nightfall brings very little peace for the people especially in the capital of Baghdad. There are constantly attacks that happen all the time. People increasingly are living with this sense of despair.

So when you have an incident like what we're seeing tonight, even if it is an accident and it is only this ammunition that is cooking off. Even if it wasn't an insurgent attack, number one, they have to cope with the fear and we're not just talking amongst adults, we're talking amongst children that really don't know what is happening out in the streets.

They're not really fully grasping what is happening. For them to be woken up out of their beds in such extreme circumstances -- especially for those that are located nearby to the base. I mean those explosions must have -- who knows, perhaps even shattered their windows. An incredibly difficult night for everybody here, Wolf.

BLITZER: Arwa, stand by. Jamie McIntyre is at the Pentagon. Jamie, it looks like these explosions, these fires are not going down I guess until all of those -- the ammunition dump there is burnt up, there's nothing that anyone can do about this.

MCINTYRE: Well we are hearing from the U.S. military spokesman for the 4th infantry division that they do believe they successfully evacuated all military and civilian personnel from this forward operating base as they're dealing with this -- what is being described now as a fire at the ammunition supply point.

The ammunition that was stored there apparently includes tank rounds, artillery rounds and various -- whoa, that was a big one, various small rounds of ammunition. But you can just see, you know, not to make light of it, but it looks like something you might see on the fourth of July in the United States. Huge explosions there, and there's really not much they can do.

We still don't know the origin of the fire. They're trying to handle the situation. Again, they do not report any casualties at this point, but you know, when those munitions go off they can send things way into the air. They can come down in civilian neighborhoods and so it may be some time before you find out if anyone has actually been hurt by this.

BLITZER: Jamie you can see the flames, the sparks going further and further from the center of this area. In fact, if you take a look at the geographic area that we're watching only 15 or 20 minutes ago, it's a much bigger area right now that clearly is enflamed.

MCINTYRE: You know they told us initially that this was confined to the base, forward operating base Falcon. But as we look at this picture which is from a telephoto lens, it does appear that there are fires nearby after shrapnel or parts of those munitions hit the ground.

So it may be the case that it's not completely contained, but our best information is actually coming from the pictures that we're seeing live on CNN now where we're getting a real time display of what's going on with this fire and explosions at this ammunition supply point, which is almost directly south of the green zone in Baghdad as we look at it on a map.

BLITZER: The triangle of death as it's called, given the fierce fighting, the sectarian violence, the insurgency that has unfolded in this part of the Iraqi capital. Iraq, let's go back to Arwa Damon, she's in Baghdad for us. Baghdad is still a huge city, what, eight, nine million people at least before the war. I don't know how many are left and there's been no official census by any means, but this is a very, very major, metropolitan area.

DAMON: It is, Wolf. I mean, Baghdad is essentially your definition of a metropolitan city. It was before the fall of Saddam Hussein a very heavily populated city. There are of course many people who have fled here. In fact, the Iraqi government announcing earlier today that some 300,000 people have been displaced throughout all of Iraq and al Dora does remain to be one of the more fairly populated parts of this city.

I mean, it is a very busy city despite everything that we see happening here every day. There are still cars out on the street. There are still people going to marketplaces. There are still people that are trying really desperately to get on with their lives.

I mean, even earlier today we had another insurgent attack and in that case they placed a roadside bomb underneath a civilian vehicle and the apparent target was a bakery. In fact that also happening in the neighborhood of al Dora, the very neighborhood where we're seeing these flames and these ongoing explosions erupt from tonight. So it's an incredibly challenging environment for everyone to live in, Wolf.

BLITZER: Let me just wrap up because we're going to continue to watch this story. Jamie McIntyre, as you see this story unfold, I know you and our colleagues at the Pentagon, elsewhere, are you getting any more information coming in from U.S. military spokesmen about what we are seeing?

MCINTYRE: No, we're awaiting more information. Presumably, they're pretty caught up in what's going on, on the ground there. Just to recap, briefly. They say this was a fire that started in an ammunitions supply point at forward operating base Falcon which is just south of Baghdad.

They're allowing the ammunition which includes tank, artillery rounds and small arms ammunition to what they call "cook off" because there's no way to safely go in and fight the fire. They say they've successfully evacuated military and civilian personnel from the base and at last report the activity was confined to the base, but again, we await further update and as we can see from the live pictures, this is not over yet -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Unless that base was very, very big, it looks like an area that clearly is beyond what is a relatively modest forward operating base that's called Falcon.

MCINTYRE: It appears that way from this perspective. It's hard to tell from here.

BLITZER: That's what it would seem like to me. Arwa, I want to go back to you in Baghdad. Arwa under a normal situation and God knows very little is normal in Iraq these days, under a normal situation there would be firefighters who would be dispatched.

There would be helicopters dropping water and other liquids on this. I take it that in the middle of the night it's approaching 2:00 a.m. in Baghdad right now, there's really no infrastructure, there's no capability of doing anything along those lines?

DAMON: Well, Wolf, you pretty much just said it right there. Very little here is normal. Now given that this was on a U.S. military base, of course, the U.S. military is able to contain it as long as it stays on that base. They do have firefighters on some of the bases there. Presumably they do have steps and measures that they can take to try to contain this to the base. What is troubling though is that if it spills out outside of the base what kind of infrastructure does Baghdad have to be able to deal with it? There are firefighters on the streets of Baghdad that do go out there every day to deal with the aftermath of any number of attacks that happen here. But again, moving around this capital is very difficult -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right stand by Arwa. Joining us on the phone is retired U.S. army colonel Pat Lang who's been watching all of this together with us. I want to show our viewers Pat some of the huge explosions only moments ago that have rocked this forward operating base Falcon. Take a look at this. These are -- this is video. These are the tape of what has happened at this facility. We'll go back to the live pictures. What's your sense of what we're seeing, Pat?

COL. PAT LANG, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, in a big world like this where a lot of ammunition is stockpiled fairly forward in fact that explosions like this are fairly commonplace, even if they -- however spectacular they may look. Because if you -- if the enemy gets a lucky hit in these places you get a detonation spread from one ammunition bunker to another.

You get a whole string of sympathetic explosions which become an enormous kind of a cataclysm in the end. And if you didn't build it right to start with for some reason, then it becomes a lot easier to have that happen. I'm not sure if this is an Iraqi ammunition dump or an American one. Which is it?

BLITZER: According to a statement that the military put out, multinational forces in Baghdad is reporting they suspect a fire broke out at an ammunition supply point on forward operating base Falcon. It's a U.S. base in the southwestern part of Baghdad.

LANG: Well, in that case I would assume that the ammunition supply plant was built correctly with enough spacing, enough hardening of the different bunkers, so that this should not happen. This would indicate a large-scale strike on the base which caused a string of sympathetic explosions from one to another. And I've been in the midst of explosions like this and it turns into something which seems like the end of the world at times and could easily spread into the residential part of Baghdad there.

BLITZER: And that's what everybody is trying to avoid. They call it cooking off, basically burning out these explosions that are occurring right now. What a euphemism that is, cooking off, you've heard that before?

LANG: Oh, yes. This means that once the temperature of the ammunition rises to a certain point it just starts to go off simultaneously and one artillery shell or rocket, or whatever it is, ignites the next one and the next one and then they blow off the top of the bunker, things fly over to the next bunker, go through the roof, it blows that one, temperatures go up and it spreads and spreads and spreads, until the whole place goes up like a tremendous kind of fourth of July thing.

BLITZER: We'll stay on top of this story Pat. Thanks very much -- Colonel Pat Lang, retired U.S. Army colonel. I want to thank Arwa Damon in Baghdad, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. We're going to stay on top of this story, huge explosions rocking the southern part of the Iraqi capital. Much more on that coming up here on CNN.

Also coming up, don't forget in our 7 p.m. eastern hour my one- on-one interview with the Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. As some try to figure out if the Clinton or Bush administration is responsible for the current crisis with North Korea. I'll ask the secretary of state whom she thinks is to blame.

Up next though, Jack Cafferty and his question of the hour, if the federal government refuses to enforce the nation's immigration laws, should local communities be allowed to do so? Jack with your e- mail right after this.

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BLITZER: Let's check in with Jack, he's in New York. Jack?

CAFFERTY: Wolf, the town of Riverside, New Jersey is being sued because they have taken it upon themselves to enact some local ordinances to deal with an overwhelming problem of illegal aliens. They pass laws providing for fines for employers or landlords who either rent to or hire illegal aliens. They have too many of them.

It's overwhelming the town's services and the federal government refuses to do anything about the issue. So the local government took it upon themselves to pass these laws. Now they're being taken to court by some civil liberties groups and others who claim that immigration enforcement is strictly the province of the federal government and that it is unconstitutional for the states to try and legislate this stuff on their own.

So that's the question. If the federal government refuses to enforce the nation's immigration laws, should local communities be allowed to step in and do so? There was a town in Pennsylvania that tried the same thing and they were dragged into court as well.

Bill writes from Casa Grande, Arizona, "No, I don't think so. But as volatile as this issue is, if the U.S. Congress doesn't want to take responsibility and do its job, many border communities may just decide that it's ok for them to take matters into their own hands. Vigilantism isn't a new thing, you know."

E.M. writes in Lavonia, Michigan, "Absolutely, Jack, it doesn't surprise me the decider is not enforcing our immigration laws. He wants his rich, corporate buddies to have access to the cheapest labor available and he's more than willing to ignore the laws of the land. I hope the working men and women of this country are finally fed up and vote out of office the congressional lackeys who support him."

Linda writes from Laramie, Wyoming, "No, I'm afraid that would open the doors to even more racial profiling."

Bill in Newburg, New York writes, "Jack, as a Puerto Rican, I am all for the states enforcing our immigration laws if our government does not. As long as the racist groups don't get involved, it's all right with me."

And John writes from Pittsburgh, "Why not? Aren't the Republicans for smaller government? Get rid of the INS, arm every torch-carrying mob with shotguns and a handbook on the differences between the races. And then buy me a ticket to Switzerland."

If you didn't see your e-mail here you can go to CNN.com/CaffertyFile, we post some more of these online for your reading pleasure -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jack, thanks very much. We'll see you in an hour.

We're here weekday afternoons 4:00 to 6:00 p.m. Eastern, back in one hour at 7:00 p.m. eastern. Remember my interview with Condoleezza Rice coming up in one hour. Let's go to New York. Lou Dobbs standing by -- Lou.

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