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The Situation Room
Dozens of Gunmen In Police Uniforms Abducted Employees At Baghdad Research Facility; U.S. Civil Rights Group Filed Suit in Germany Against Donald Rumsfeld And Other U.S. Officials; Roy Blunt Interview; Evan Bayh Interview; Experts Found Unexplained Traces of Plutonium and Highly Enriched Uranium At Nuclear Waste Facility in Iran; Senator Hillary Clinton versus Rudy Giuliani in 2008
Aired November 14, 2006 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: And to our viewers, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time. Standing by, CNN reporters across the United States and around the world to bring you today's top stories.
Happening now, amid the carnage, a mass kidnapping. It's 1:00 a.m. in Baghdad, where gunmen in police uniforms grabbed dozens at a research institute, forcing the shut down of Iraqi universities.
Why are top cops under arrest right now in Baghdad?
Could Donald Rumsfeld be jailed if he visits Germany?
It's 11:00 p.m. in Berlin, where civil rights groups are seeking war crimes charges against the American defense secretary.
Could a former U.S. military commander testify against him?
And it's 5:00 p.m. in New York.
Are Rudy Giuliani and Hillary Rodham Clinton ready for round two?
New Yorkers dream about a presidential match up between a pair of heavyweights.
I'm Wolf Blitzer.
You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
It was bold and oh so brazen -- a carefully choreographed kidnapping as dozens of gunmen in police uniforms abducted dozens of employees at a Baghdad research facility. The stunning raid sent shock waves out across the country and a chilling message.
CNN's Michael Ware is on the ground in Baghdad.
But let's begin with our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, sad to say that kidnappings are commonplace in Baghdad these days. But not on this scale. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): It was an audacious daylight attack -- gunmen dressed as Iraqi police arrived at the Higher Education Ministry building in central Baghdad, claiming to have a list of people wanted on corruption charges. After separating the women, virtually all the men were taken away.
"They kidnapped deputy director generals, all employees, assistants and cleaners, leaving nobody behind," says Allah Machi (ph), an Iraqi parliament member.
It's unclear if the kidnappers were Iraqi police, members of a Shia militia operating within the police or criminals posing as police. But the effect was the same -- to further intimidate an already terrorized populace.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a complete breakdown in order in Baghdad. This is the antithesis of what was said we wanted to achieve in that city when we began operations in August. So we have failed miserably to impose any degree of order whatsoever on Baghdad.
MCINTYRE: Initial reports suggested up to 150 Iraqis had been abducted, which would make this the largest mass kidnapping of the war. But later, Iraqi officials suggested perhaps only 50 people were being held hostage.
In Iraq, kidnappings are common, but most are criminal money making enterprises aimed solely at getting a ransom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course, these events happen most of the time in Iraq and we don't surprise about this every.
MCINTYRE: In this case, some witnesses said the gunmen seemed to be focusing on minority Sunnis, suggesting the attack bore the hallmark of Shia militiamen working as or with help from Iraqi police. And the kidnappers appear to have fled in pickup trucks in the direction of Sadr City, a Shia militia stronghold.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Now, the kidnap attack forced the shut down of university classes today and now some top police officials, including the police commander from that district where this took place, are -- have been brought in for questioning, to try to find out who was behind this brazen attack -- Wolf.
BLITZER: When you think it can't get any worse, it does.
Jamie, thank you very much for that.
There's still no claim of responsibility for this mass kidnapping, which is a familiar tactic, as Jamie points out, of both insurgents and sectarian death squads.
Just a short while ago, I spoke with CNN's Michael Ware in Baghdad.
What is the likely expectation? What happens to these individuals, I take it mostly men, if not all men, who were kidnapped.
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Certainly.
There were all men, as far as we are aware, who were kidnapped during the course of this clearly well orchestrated raid right under the noses of as many as 50,000 or 60,000 American and Iraqi troops on the streets of Baghdad.
What we see in the past, from brutal experience, is that these stories often end rather grimly. We don't know if this is sectarian motivated. We've seen circumstances in the past where groups of people are taken and then either the Sunnis or the Shias are let go, with a sad fate for those who are not.
We're waiting to see what becomes of these scores of kidnapped who have been taken.
BLITZER: My initial reaction when I heard about it, these gunmen dressed as Iraqi military personnel going in an kidnapping what would widely be considered intelligentsia, the elite -- scientists, doctors, going into the Ministry of Education, this building. They're also trying to send a message to this community of, shall we say, the more liberal elite of Iraq, that maybe they should think about getting out of that country.
WARE: Very clearly. I mean I think there's a twofold message, either directly or indirectly behind this. One clearly is what you hit upon. This is a direct assault on the country's brains trust, its intelligentsia. We have seen a campaign targeting these people since the immediate aftermath of the invasion.
In the beginning it was led by criminals which were looking to extort the families of the doctors, the lawyers, the judges, the engineers, the scientists, the professors. We've since seen that evolve into targeted campaigns by both Sunnis and Shias -- Wolf.
This is also a message, though, coming directly the day after the visit of General John Abizaid, looking for more support from the Iraqi government. And lo and behold, men in Iraqi government uniforms conduct this kind of operation.
BLITZER: It sends a powerful message to the Iraqi government.
They have to really get their act together.
Did you see -- very briefly, Michael -- any evidence they're doing that?
WARE: Absolutely not. And I think this morning, in fact, shows the contrary position is true. I mean what we're seeing is the government giving whatever assurances it is giving to the U.S. administration. Yet through a lack of genuine will or through a lack of any effective power, it's clearly displaying it cannot control its own security forces, and perhaps this morning's daring kidnap is the most glaring illustration of that -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Michael Ware reporting for us from Baghdad.
Michael, thanks very much.
WARE: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: A U.S. civil rights group today filed suit in Germany, seeking war crimes charges against outgoing Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and other U.S. officials. Ready to testify, a former U.S. Army commander.
let's get the story from CNN's Brian Todd -- Brian.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, one legal expert believes this is more about politics than law. But this action does bring back images of some of the more difficult moments of Donald Rumsfeld's tenure.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (voice-over): Not content with his political demise, some of Donald Rumsfeld's antagonists want him to pay a legal price.
VINCENT WARREN, CENTER FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS: Whether Donald Rumsfeld will ultimately go to jail or not, I don't know. But he should be ashamed for the rest of his life.
TODD: The Center for Constitutional Rights, which calls itself a progressive human rights group, is asking a German federal prosecutor to investigate Rumsfeld and nearly a dozen other U.S. civilian and military officials for war crimes. The group says Rumsfeld was one of the so-called architects of torture programs targeting detainees at Iraq's Abu Ghraib Prison and Guantanamo Bay.
WARREN: And that includes torture provisions like using dogs, religious -- religious persecution, religious humiliation, sexual humiliation, temperature change, sleep deprivation and things like that.
TODD: Providing testimony?
Former Army General Janis Karpinski, the one time commander of U.S. prisons in Iraq, now relieved of that command and demoted to colonel in the wake of Abu Ghraib. She was with the leader of the Center for Constitutional Rights in Germany when the papers were filed and still says she knew nothing about the torture at Abu Ghraib.
COL. JANIS KARPINSKI, U.S. ARMY (RET.): To me, this is just yet one more opportunity, now in the international environment, for people to hear the story from a firsthand account.
TODD: A spokeswoman in Rumsfeld's office says the U.S. government does not condone torture. She says the Pentagon is reviewing the documents in this case, but has no reason to believe this complaint has merit. From Pentagon Spokesman Bryan Whitman: "It's interesting to me that nobody kind of looks at it from the other side in contrasting the way in which the enemy handles individuals and respect for people."
As for why Germany would consider trying a case, legal experts say Germany has sweeping criminal laws making a party's nationality or location of an alleged offense immaterial. They say it's doubtful the U.S. will play along.
SCOTT SILLIMAN, DUKE UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: So my guess is the United States will look at this, take interest in it, but handle it politically and not do anything to try to yield to the German courts.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: The Center for Constitutional Rights filed a similar complaint two years ago that was dismissed by a German court. Legal experts say they doubt the German government will allow this case to go very far this time, as well -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Brian Todd reporting.
Thank you, Brian, for that.
Let's check back with Jack Cafferty with "The Cafferty File" -- Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: The U.S. may be getting a nudge from Brian to change direction in Iraq. Today, the prime minister, Tony Blair, spoke with the bipartisan Iraq Study Group via teleconference just a day after he called for a possible partnership with both Iran and Syria to try to help stabilize Iraq and the entire Middle East region.
President Bush has shot down the suggestion of talks with both Iran and Syria in the past, but some of the panel members are open to the possibility.
Britain and the United States are in the process of trying to rethink their strategies on Iraq as violence continues to escalate there. The Iraq Study Group is expected to bring its recommendations to President Bush by the end of this year.
So here's the question -- should the United States negotiate with Iran and Syria about a possible solution to Iraq?
E-mail your thoughts to CaffertyFile@CNN.com or go to CNN.com/CaffertyFile -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Good question, Jack.
Thank you.
And still ahead, what went wrong for Republicans and will it mean a change in leadership?
I'll ask the current House majority whip, Roy Blunt. He's standing by to join us right here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Also, it's a top presidential priority, so what will become of the Terrorist Surveillance Act, as it's called, with Democrats now poised to the control of Congress?
And they faced off briefly in the year 2000.
Will Hillary Rodham Clinton and Rudy Giuliani go at it again in '08?
We'll tell you why some say it would be a clash of the titans.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
Let's get some more now on the very changed political calculus here in Washington.
Now that Democrats will hold the majority in Congress, there's a race to see who will lead the minority status Republicans in the House.
My next guest is currently a Republican leader, but some of his peers are eyeing his post. This as Republicans ponder their fate and Iraq's future.
Joining us is Republican Congressman Roy Blunt of Missouri. He's the majority whip right now. And you want to -- we're going to get to the political aspects of your efforts to stay in the leadership in a moment.
REP. ROY BLUNT (R-MO), MAJORITY WHIP: Right.
BLITZER: But let's talk about Iraq first.
Did the war in Iraq cost the Republicans the elections this time around?
BLUNT: Well, I think it's certainly a big factor. When you look at any election, any -- particularly any mid-term of a president who has already served one term, you see slippage, always. I noticed the other day that in 1944, just a few months -- actually, 1942 -- just a few months after Pearl Harbor, the Democrats lost 44 seats in the House.
So a wartime situation always contributes to that. The sixth year of a presidency contributes to that. Frankly, we probably did some things that contributed to it, as well, and this two years gives us a chance to remind ourselves who we were and, frankly, to remind the country who the Democrats are. And I think that's going to be helpful for us next time.
BLITZER: Here's what your former leader, the former speaker, Newt Gingrich, said the other day: "If the president has replaced Rumsfeld two weeks ago, the Republicans would still control the Senate and they would probably have 10 more House members. For the president to have suggested for the last two weeks that there would be no change and then change the day after the election is very disheartening."
Looking back, should the president have asked Rumsfeld to leave before the election? Would that make a difference?
BLUNT: Well, I think if the president was going to make that change, it would have been helpful to make it earlier. He's a good friend of mine. I know it's a hard job to be president. You've got a lot of decisions you're trying to make all the time.
I do think it would have been helpful to make this one earlier because all of our candidates then would have been able to say with more certainty, and people would have believed with more certainty, that we're looking constantly at how we can improve. We're reviewing these policies. We're not stuck in the status quo in any way in Iraq. And that decision is proof of that.
Unfortunately, we didn't have that to say, but, you know, it's a tough job and...
BLITZER: Have you expressed that irritation to the White House?
BLUNT: I've expressed that concern and the irritation that the members would have. And I think they expected that. Now, you'll have to ask them more than that. But, you know, we've got to move on with where we are and I think this does put the Iraq policy in a significant re-evaluation period. The Baker Commission, now the new secretary of defense coming on.
And we ought to be looking at what we're doing...
BLITZER: You're...
BLUNT: ... and how we're doing it.
BLITZER: You're in a -- you've been a very strong supporter of the administration's stance in Iraq.
Is it time right now for a major course adjustment, to start leaning on the Iraqi government to step up so that U.S. troops could start coming home?
BLUNT: Well, I do think you've got to really understand that we are in a war. We really do have enemies. They're not just terrorists, they're really, truly extremist totalitarians who are vowed to destroy our country and Americans, we've got to take that fight to them.
But we also have to always know that our goals are achievable, they're realistic and we're attaining those goals.
Ultimately, Iraq is about the Iraqi people. The kind of government they have is about the kind of government they're willing to fight for and stand up for. And I continue to hope that we see improvement there, and I think we will.
BLITZER: You're the majority whip right now, which is the number three Republican in the House of Representatives.
BLUNT: Right.
BLITZER: You want to be the minority whip in the new House of Representatives, which would be the number two Republican. But you're facing a stiff challenge right now.
BLUNT: Well, we're facing a challenge, but I think we've got a real opportunity in the next two years. And one way we take advantage of that...
BLITZER: I'm talking about getting -- being elected as...
BLUNT: I understand.
BLITZER: ... the minority whip.
BLUNT: One way we take advantage of that opportunity is you've got to have leaders who actually know how to get this job done, of keeping our team together, making the Democrats take the tough votes, helping them define themselves. Many Democrats that were elected on Tuesday ran as Republicans, essentially, at home. They just said they were better than the Republican they were running against. The right kind of whip operation won't allow that to happen.
When you look at any criticisms of leadership in the last few years, I don't think there's ever been one of how the majority whip's operation ran. It's a different job, but it's the same skills set. I think on Friday my colleagues are going to agree with that and we're going to move forward and that's going to be a good thing for our party.
BLITZER: So you think you have the votes to beat John Shadegg?
BLUNT: You know, John Shadegg is a good guy. I do think we do. But we're continuing to work to even add more to that. We've passed what we thought was the number we needed. But you want plenty there for the fudge factor and now we're into the percentages above what we have to have to get this job done on Friday.
BLITZER: Because, as you well know, this is...
BLUNT: That's why...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: ... closed door vote...
BLUNT: As I well know.
BLITZER: ... a secret ballot. They can promise you anything, but once they cast their votes, your fellow Republicans in the House, they can vote for anyone. There's been some suggestion that your deputy right now, Congressman Eric Cantor of Virginia, should step up and you should step down.
You want to respond?
You've read that in the papers...
BLUNT: Well...
BLITZER: ... to those making that kind of suggestion that he would win if he ran.
BLUNT: Well, I don't know about that. I know he's helping me win. He's running my campaign. He's a great friend of mine. I'm glad I brought him into the whip team as my deputy. I think Eric Cantor is going to be the whip in the House someday, maybe the speaker of the House someday.
But right now we're working together to get this job done.
I'd like to see Eric Cantor be the majority whip in the majority in the future. And the only way to get that done is to work as a team today. He knows that, I know that. That's how we put these votes together that we feel good about Friday, but we want to even feel better about Friday, by Friday.
BLITZER: We're out of time.
But a quick question -- can you work with Nancy Pelosi, the speaker-to-be?
BLUNT: We'll see. We'll see. Nancy suggests she wants to reach out and be bipartisan. So far, that seems to mean just doing whatever they want to do. Hillary Clinton's comments, Rubin's comments on tax increases, all show that the Democrats are sort of reverting back to their previous agenda.
We'll see how things work out after the first of the year.
BLITZER: All right, Roy Blunt, we'll see what happens.
BLUNT: Thank you.
BLITZER: Thanks very much for coming in.
And coming up, they won Congress largely because of the war in Iraq.
But what do Democrats intend to do about it?
I'll speak about that and more with Senator Evan Bayh of Indiana. He'll join us right here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Plus, Wal-Mart and the race for the White House. Details on what some potential 2008 candidates are doing that might upset the world's largest retailer.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Carol Costello joining us once again for a closer look at some other stories making news -- hi, Carol.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Wolf.
Good afternoon to all of you.
It was a pleasant meeting, but no firm promises of help. That's how the heads of the three big U.S. auto makers described their talks with President Bush today. Among many issues discussed, what the auto companies call Japan's unfair advantage because of the weakening yen. Mr. Bush promised to talk to trading partners at leveling the playing field during his eight day Asia tour. He is scheduled to leave on that tour tonight.
Attention Wal-Mart shoppers -- two presidential prospects are shopping for answers over Wal-Mart's relationship with its employees. Democratic Senator Barack Obama of Illinois and former Democratic Senator John Edwards of North Carolina will speak tomorrow to a group critical of the retailer. The group's called wakeupwalmart.com and has pressured the retailer for higher wages and better benefits. Wal- Mart is urging the two Democrats to keep an open mind about Wal-Mart.
And the Goya has gone missing. We're talking about the 200-year- old masterpiece "Children With A Cart" painted by the Spanish painter Goya. It was snatched in transit somewhere between the Toledo, Ohio Museum of Art and the Guggenheim Museum in New York. The FBI is involved in the search. A reward of up to $50,000 is being offered and, Wolf, agents say it appears the thief or thieves knew what they were doing, so maybe it was an inside job.
BLITZER: I assume they did know what they were doing.
All right, thanks, Carol, for that.
Coming up, Senator Evan Bayh -- he's about to wield some major power on Capitol Hill. Coming up, my conversation with him, right here in THE SITUATION ROOM, about what he thinks should be done in Iraq.
Also, Hillary Rodham Clinton versus Rudy Giuliani -- it's happened before. Our Mary Snow takes closer look at the possibility that it will happen again.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: You're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time. Happening now, bold and brazen body snatchings. In Baghdad, gunmen dressed like Iraqi police snatch dozens of people from an Education Ministry building. At least 16 have been freed. Iraqi officials are probing what happened.
America's chief ally in the Iraq war and the group looking for ways to fix Iraq talk today via video link. According to Tony Blair's official spokesman, the prime minister of Britain told the Iraq Study Group that peace across the Middle East is critical and that Iraq's security force must rid itself of sectarianism.
And another record high close for the Dow. The Dow Jones Industrial Average closed today at over 12,218.
I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
They haven't taken control of Congress just yet, but with the power shift here in Washington, Democrats are starting to flex their muscles.
At top of their agenda -- Iraq.
And joining us now, Democratic Senator Evan Bayh of Indiana. He's a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee.
Senator, thanks very much for coming in.
SEN. EVAN BAYH (D-IA), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Good to be with you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Listen to what Senator Carl Levin, Democrat of Michigan, who's going to be the chairman of the Armed Services Committee, said yesterday about U.S. troops withdrawals from Iraq.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D-MI), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Most Democrats share the view that we should pressure the White House to commence the phased redeployment of U.S. troops from Iraq in four to six months.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Are you on the same page with Senator Levin to begin that phased redeployment within four to six months?
BAYH: Wolf, I think we need to be very direct with the Iraqis and put the pressure right on them and say look, this is your country. Only you can resolve the problems that are tearing you apart. And to date, you've simply not demonstrated either the capacity or the will to do that.
And so we are not going to stay in your country forever. We're going to begin to withdraw our troops. Now, the timing of that will depend on you, and if you get your act together and show some promise of being able to stabilize your country, we'll give you some more time to do that.
But if you simply are unable or unwilling to make the choices that only you can make, there's no hope for this situation and we'll leave sooner rather than later. So I do believe we need to tell them, we're not staying forever, and that if they don't get their act together, we're going to withdraw, sooner rather than later.
BLITZER: But this time table that Senator Levin laid out, start commencing, start to withdraw within the next four to six months. Do you want to be as specific as Senator Levin, in other words?
BAYH: Well, to begin it in the next four to six months to show them that we're serious, that we mean business that they've got to get their act together and focus on getting the job done, yes, absolutely. How long it will take to completely redeploy our troops I think is going to be more dependent upon events on the ground. And hopefully, they'll begin to do better and show that the capacity and the will to try and stabilize their country.
But you know General Abizaid, all the commanders, Wolf, will tell you there is no purely military solution to this. What is driving the insurgency in Iraq today are unresolved political disputes among Iraqis. And no matter how long we stay, no matter how many Americans die, no matter how much money we spend, this will not have a happy outcome unless they do their part. And they're simply not doing that now. So I think a real wake-up call to them, letting them know we're not there forever and to show them we mean business to begin that process, yes, I think that's in order.
BLITZER: It seems that everyone agrees the situation in Iraq is getting worse by the day. The violence, the horrendous reports that we're hearing all the time. Earlier this year in June, June of 2006, you were among those Democrats who voted against a resolution that would have had a redeployment by the end of July 2007. A lot has happened over the past six months. Does this election, the Democrats winning in the Senate and the House, give you the kind of strength, the cover you need to push forward, a more assertive, U.S. policy towards Iraq?
BAYH: Yes, it does, Wolf. And first, you say that everyone says that things aren't going as well as they should in Iraq. I'm reminded of something that the president said just weeks ago when he said, I think this is a direct quote, that we are winning in Iraq. You know, hopefully with a new secretary of defense we'll get a better sense of realism about events on the ground.
And hopefully, now we will be able to do our part to convince the administration that to strengthen our country to meet more important security threats to the United States, we need to begin the process of bringing closure to Iraq.
BLITZER: I've spoken over the past few days with some high- ranking officials in the administration, in the Pentagon, military and civilian who said to me they're relieved that Donald Rumsfeld is leaving because they feel that now there can be some changes. As long as he was there, he was such a powerful influence there, people were really afraid to come up with new ideas. And now with a new defense secretary coming in, they might be able to have the wherewithal, if you will, to change course. I assume you agree with that?
BAYH: Wolf, I agree wholeheartedly with that. I mean look, to err is human. But to persist in err, to refuse to acknowledge err or correct it, particularly when lives are at stake, that is a great human failing. And so there was just no willingness to reexamine the facts, to contemplate different courses of action.
And so I hope that we'll have greater flexibility for the purpose of maximizing the security of our country and bringing our presence in Iraq to some sort of an acceptable closure. And we look to Secretary Designate Gates for his thoughts, also to the Baker and the Hamilton Commission to see what ideas they may have. I think we need to put it all on the table and see what makes sense at this juncture.
But it all has to begin with two things, Wolf. Number one, the Iraqis doing what only they can do. And number two, an understanding by us that Iraq is important but it is not the central front in the war on terror. And in fact, it is weakening us in dealing with Iran and Afghanistan and other things more closely associated with our security and combating global terror. That's why we need to being the process of bringing closure to Iraq.
BLITZER: Senator, we're almost out of time. But a few political questions before I let you go. When are you going to announce the creation of an exploratory committee for a run for the White House?
BAYH: Will you forgive me if it's not today?
BLITZER: Yes, I'll forgive you. But is it going to be in the next few days, the next few weeks? I assume that that's important to start raising some money to begin to explore whether or not you really want to do this?
BAYH: Well there are those practical things to consider, Wolf. And it's possible at some time before the end of the year we'll have an exploratory committee to do some of the things that only an exploratory committee can do. But I wouldn't look to make a final decision or some sort of formal announcement until after the holidays. You're interested in this, I'm interested in this, some of your viewers are, my guess is that a majority of Americans would like a little rest from politics for the time being.
BLITZER: Do you want to tell us what you bring to the table if in fact you decide you want to run for president? Well, I'm a successful two-term governor with national security experience who has won five times in a red state, with a proven track record of uniting Democrats, Independents and Republicans to move my state and perhaps our country forward.
BLITZER: Is Hillary Clinton, your colleague from New York State, too polarizing to be elected president from a Democrat's perspective? BAYH: No, and I should make clear that I like Mrs. Clinton. But the question is, who maximizes our chances of being successful. Of course, she can win, but the question is who gives us the best chance.
BLITZER: And you're suggesting it would be you?
BAYH: No, I'm not. Perhaps that's a discussion for another day.
BLITZER: Senator Bayh thanks very much for coming in. Good luck to you.
BAYH: Thank you Wolf.
BLITZER: And up next, new developments in the nuclear standoff with Iran. It involves mysterious traces of plutonium and uranium. The U.S. wants answers while Iran remains defiant.
And is time running out for the Bush administration's terrorist surveillance act as it's called? We'll take a closer look at the future of that legislation now that Democrats will control Congress. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: A report from the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog agency says experts have found unexplained traces of plutonium and highly enriched uranium at a nuclear waste facility in Iran. The International Atomic Energy Agency and the United States want answers, but Iran is acting more and more lately like it owes no one any explanation.
CNN's Aneesh Raman is in Tehran.
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, Iran's president left little doubt today. If the U.S. wants to talk, it will have to see Iran as an equal.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RAMAN (voice-over): Not since the Islamic revolution in 1979 and the ensuing capture of American hostages has Iran so dominated world affairs. It's why Iran's president these days can't seem to hold back a smile. Because a country once bordered by two enemies, Saddam's Iraq and the Taliban's Afghanistan, a country that over the years methodically built alliances with Lebanon's Hezbollah and Palestinian Hamas sees right now as its defining moment, one with Iran as the superpower in the Middle East. And if there was any doubt, add in an Iraq that appears to be falling apart. And suggestions the U.S. should talk to Tehran.
PRES. MAHMOUD AHMADINEJAD, IRAN: We'll talk with the American government, but under certain conditions. The conditions concern the attitude of the American government. If they correct their behavior, we'll talk to them like others.
RAMAN: Direct talks would help give the Islamic Republic the stamp of approval as a regional power. But if the U.S. talks to Tehran, some analysts here an elsewhere say Iran's president would have little reason to back down on its nuclear program. A program that's become a rallying point of pride in the country. Even here at this reformist newspaper where you find some of Ahmadinejad's hardest critics.
JALAL KHOSHCHEHREH, KHARGOVAARAN NEWSPAPER: Iran accepts that the U.S. is a superpower, but every time Iran's power is discussed, the U.S. portrays it as a threat.
RAMAN: But timing is everything. And the U.S. must now decide what is a greater threat, Iraq in chaos or a nuclear Iran?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RAMAN: Iranian officials are banking on the fact that the answer is Iraq. And that to solve the issues there, the U.S. will have to acknowledge Iran as a regional power -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Aneesh, thank you. Aneesh Raman reporting from Iran.
The shift in the balance of power in Congress is raising serious questions about some key legislation, including one of the Bush Administration's top priorities what they call the terrorist surveillance act.
Our justice correspondent Kelli Arena is joining us with details -- Kelli.
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, Senate Judiciary Chairman Arlen Specter just a short time ago introduced legislation to endorse the president's surveillance program. For a program that was recently very top secret, Wolf, it has become a much-talked about priority.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ARENA (voice-over): The Bush White House is playing beat the clock trying to get Congress to officially approve its controversial terror wiretap program before the Democrats take over.
ALBERTO GONZALES, ATTORNEY GENERAL: This program allows us to gather important information about threats to the United States. It has been invaluable in protecting our nation.
ARENA: The program allows the National Security Agency to listen in on phone calls between people in the United States and overseas without a warrant if one of the parties is a suspected terrorist.
GONZALES: We believe that we have an obligation to protect the American people by trying to understand and trying to learn what communications are occurring involving our enemy during a time of war.
ARENA: But time is running short in this lame duck session and critics like the ACLU are aggressively mobilizing to stop the bill.
CAROLINE FREDRICKSON, ACLU: There's absolutely no reason Congress and to the contrary, the legislation would provide the president protection after breaking the law.
ARENA: In August, a federal judge ruled the wiretapping program was illegal because the Bush administration ignored a law already in place, the 1978 foreign intelligence surveillance act or FISA. The government is appealing that decision.
FREDRICKSON: And all were we're asking is that the president abide by that law and that we don't change it to accommodate a program that he has authorized that has been in violation of the law now for several years.
ARENA: Democrats for their part say they're not ruling out new legislation, but need more information.
REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: If we are going to be partners in this fight, we need to understand what are the challenges so that we can work together and fix a remedy that works. And so that's number one.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ARENA: The administration says it wants to work together as well, but we'll see if a change in control results in any more cooperation. While Republicans were in charge, Democrats accused the administration, specifically the attorney general, Wolf, of some major league stonewalling.
BLITZER: Kelli Arena reporting, Kelli good work. Thank you.
Up ahead, it's a political blast from the past that could be revived in '08, Hillary Rodham Clinton and Rudy Giuliani possibly facing off, this time in a race for the White House.
Plus, from the desk of the president of the United States, these aren't your average doodles. CNN's Jeanne Moos takes a closer look. That's coming up in our 7:00 p.m. eastern hour. Stay with us, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
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BLITZER: This story just coming into CNN right now. The Iraqi state television Iraqi reporting that most of those hostages so brazenly taken at that education ministry complex in Baghdad earlier today, Iraq now reporting most, not necessarily all, most have been freed. We're getting more information on this.
Earlier reported some 100 to 150 individuals, educators, scientists at that education ministry were taken hostage by men dressed in Iraqi police uniforms. We're watching this story. We'll give you the latest information as soon as it comes in right here into THE SITUATION ROOM.
Let's move on, back to politics, for a preview of what could be one of the hottest presidential races in 2008. You need only look back to the year 2000 when Hillary Clinton and Rudy Giuliani briefly faced off in that New York Senate race. CNN's Mary Snow is joining us from New York with more on this story. Mary?
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf with Rudy Giuliani officially testing the waters for 2008 and Senator Clinton indicating she's thinking about running, is sparking lots of anticipation about a potential match up between the two New Yorkers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW (voice-over): Senator Hillary Clinton versus Rudy Giuliani in 2008, one reporter who has covered them calls it a clash of the titans.
MIKE TOMASKY, AMERICAN PROSPECT ED. AT LARGE: It should to be great to finish the thing that we started but never finished in New York in 1999 and 2000, when Giuliani of course was the candidate for senate and dropped out in May of 2000.
SNOW: At the time, Giuliani, the Republican mayor of a largely Democratic city, was diagnosed with prostate cancer.
RUDY GIULIANI (R), FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK: This is not the right time for me to run for office.
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: I called him at the conclusion of his announcement to wish him well.
SNOW: Flash forward six years, both are considered rock stars of their respective parties. Rudy Giuliani has risen to the ranks as America's mayor following September 11th. Democratic Senator Hillary Clinton has won her second senate term by a landslide.
WAYNE BARRETT, SR. EDITOR, THE VILLAGE VOICE: The first female candidate for president with such a hard-nose prosecutorial type, there's a kind of confrontational scene that we all anticipate. People salivate for that.
SNOW: When they first ran against each other in 2000, it didn't take long before the gloves came off.
GIULIANI: I'm not from Arkansas or Illinois. I was born in New York.
SNOW: Clinton fired back at a GOP fundraising letter that suggested she was hostile towards America's religious traditions.
CLINTON: It is outrageous that the mayor has injected religion into this race
SNOW: Was this just the opening act to the political drama of 2008? While the match up is eagerly anticipated, some say it may not last longer than a New York minute.
TOMASKY: I think that Giuliani has a very tough time getting through the Republican primary process because of some things in his record as New York mayor. And I don't think that Hillary Clinton has a lock on the Democratic nomination either. (END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: And coincidentally a recent CNN poll pits Giuliani and Clinton at a dead heat in a hypothetical match up -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right Mary, thank you very much. Mary Snow, part of the best political team on television. Each holiday season, millions of needy children receive their only gift from the Marine Corps Reserves "Toys for Tots." From stuffed animals to games last year, the program handed out more than 18 million toys. But will this year's gift basket include Moses and Jesus dolls that recite bible scripture. Our Abbi Tatton is following the story. Abbi?
ABBI TATTON, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Wolf, these are the dolls at issue, Jesus, Mary, Moses and David. They're made by the company, Want to Believe, a manufacturer of Christian educational toys. Want to Believe had wanted to donate about 4,000 of these dolls to "Toys for Tots" but was told no, "Toys for Tots" cannot accept the dolls because they're of a religious nature.
Spokesman Bill Grain (ph) for "Toys for Tots" said they rejected the dolls because they don't know the nationality or the religion of the recipients and they didn't want to play favorites with any one religion. Now the director of Want to Believe Michael Lareaux said he was disappointed to hear this. The dolls seemed appropriate at Christmas but Want to Believe says that they have had many, many phone calls from organizations who said they will accept the dolls -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right thanks Abbi for that. Up next, Jack Cafferty is wondering should the United States negotiate with Iran and Syrian about a possible solution to Iraq. Jack standing by with The Cafferty File. We'll be right back.
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BLITZER: Here's a look at some of the hot shots coming in from our friends over at the "Associated Press," pictures likely to be in your hometown newspapers tomorrow. In Western Bolivia, President Evo Morales rides into a village on a tractor after donating 150 tractors to poor farmers.
On Capitol Hill Democratic freshman Representative-Elect Steve Cohen takes a photo of himself with his cell phone. He's from Tennessee, Harold Ford's old district.
In London, Michael Jackson leaves his hotel. Tomorrow he'll perform at the World Music Awards.
And in Hong Kong, a huge Italian white truffle is photographed at a news conference. A property tycoon purchased it for more than $160,000. He plans to serve it as part of a five-course banquet he's hosting Thursday. Some of today's hot shots, pictures often worth a thousand words.
Jack Cafferty is not going to be serving a banquet like that, but he's joining us live from New York -- Jack. CAFFERTY: You're correct. The question of the hour is this, it's actually at the suggestion of Great Britain since nothing in Iraq seems to be going so well, Great Britain has raised the possibility that perhaps the United States should to negotiate with Iran and Syria about a possible solution to the problems in Iraq.
Timothy writes from Marcellus, New York, "gee, imagine, Syria, Iran, the United States and Great Britain being partners in the well- being of the Middle East. It's a novel idea. Well worth pursuing. But I doubt that our shadow government, the oil companies, will go for it."
Tony writes from Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, "We should have done it a long time ago. It's their part of the world. They understand the dynamics that make it work and they have a strong interest in freeing Iraq from the occupation that has done so much damage."
Gary in Idaho writes, "If anybody halfway intelligent has been watching what the leaders inside Iran and Syria have been saying, then you'd know that talking to Iran is talking to the devil. It's a fact that Iran's only interest is destroying the west. It would be insanity to seek them out to solve the situation when they are a major part of the problem."
Pat writes from North Carolina, "The United Nations should convene a peace conference for the region from Egypt to Pakistan. The United States should play no greater role in that conference than any other country. The purpose should be that those countries most affected by the destabilization should have the most to say about how to fix it. Maybe the Palestinian and Lebanon issues could also be addressed."
Brett in Pennsylvania, "No. Look what happened with North Korea. The Iranians would use it's as an opportunity to exploit the diplomatic goodwill and continue with their eventual intent of nuclear Armageddon."
James in Poseyville, Indiana writes, "Iran and Syria definitely have a stake in Iraq's future and should be included in our search for a method to withdraw without our head being handed to us on a platter. Ideology has trumped common sense up to this point, so maybe it's time to try something that smacks up common sense."
If you didn't see your e-mail here, you can go to CNN.com/CaffertyFile where you can read some more of these online -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Basically, the thrust of Tony Blair's proposal as I understand it, Jack, is that, A, the United States should bring in all of these regional neighbors of Iraq, whether Saudi Arabia, Jordan on the more moderate side, but also Syria and Iran, not only include them, but get a dialogue going with them on Iran, but at the same time create a new initiative to try to resolve the Israeli Arab conflict including Lebanon. It's a very, very ambitious agenda, I'm not sure necessarily it's going to have a huge impact on what's happening in Iraq per se.
CAFFERTY: Well, you know, far be it for me to give anybody advice, but it seemed to me that there is plenty of issues as it pertains to Iraq itself alone at this point to warrant some sort of conference. And get some of the minds in that part of the world and get their input. I mean the way we're doing it over there doesn't seem to be working so well, does it?
So, what's the harm in having a sit down and inviting some of the other folks who have a vested interest in stabilizing that part of the world after we have so successfully destabilized it. I'm not sure you could get all those other issues into one conference and have anything productive come out of it, but hey, who knows. It's probably worth a shot.
BLITZER: It's worth a shot. We'll see what happens. Jack, thanks. See you back here in an hour, 7:00 p.m. eastern, much more in THE SITUATION ROOM. Meantime, let's go to Lou in New York -- Lou.
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