Return to Transcripts main page
The Situation Room
Iraqi Power Broker Meets President Bush; Is Hillary Clinton Preparing to Announce Presidential Run?
Aired December 04, 2006 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: To our viewers, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time. Standing by, CNN reporters across the United States and around the world to bring you today's top stories.
Happening now, as the bodies pile up back in Baghdad, an Iraqi power broker visits President Bush.
Can this pro-Iranian Shiite leader help Americans find their way out of a long running war?
More fallout from the defense secretary's memo calling for a major adjustment in Iraq as the Senate gets ready to vet his replacement.
Can Robert Gates finish what Donald Rumsfeld started?
And could a pair of New Yorkers actually face-off for the presidency in '08?
As Hillary Rodham Clinton takes a closer look at a White House run, is Governor George Pataki doing the exact same thing?
I'll ask him this hour.
I'm Wolf Blitzer.
You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Could this week be a turning point for the war in Iraq?
President Bush today playing host to a powerful Shiite leader who may hold the key that could open the exit door for U.S. troops in Iraq.
But is he already slamming the door shut on a proposal to be revealed later this week by the Iraq Study Group?
The violence in Iraq reaches new heights -- 106 more bodies turn up on the streets of Baghdad showing signs of torture.
Is it too late to put the lid back on?
And the U.S. Senate prepares to question the president's pick to head the Pentagon -- Robert Gates. But will his turn in the spotlight be overshadowed by that controversial memo from Donald Rumsfeld?
CNN's Nic Robertson is standing by in Baghdad.
Jamie McIntyre is over at the Pentagon.
But let's begin this hour with our White House correspondent, Ed Henry -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, certainly pressure building this week on President Bush to change course in Iraq. He is expecting the judgment, of course, to come in just two days from now from the Iraq Study Group, that Baker-Hamilton Commission.
So the president is trying to crank up the diplomacy.
On Thursday, he'll be here at the White House, hosting the British prime minister, Tony Blair, his most stalwart ally with the war on Iraq. But, also, the president today meeting, as you noted, with a key Shiite leader, Abdul Aziz al-Hakim today at the White House. That an effort to try to help stabilize the shaky government of Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Al-Maliki. But, more importantly, the president trying to send a message back home here to the American people who are frustrated with the war in Iraq that he gets it, he understands, as he noted, he told the Shiite leader not enough progress is being made on the ground.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I appreciate so very much His Eminence's commitment to a unity government. I assured him the United States supports his work and the work of the prime minister to unify the country. Part of unifying Iraq is for the elected leaders and society leaders to reject the extremists that are trying to stop the advance of this young democracy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Now, the president went on to say that the Iraqi government has to figure out a way to defend itself, possibly a nod to the Iraq Study Group, expected to be blistering in its assessment of the war. Also, while sources say that it will not call for a timetable for withdrawal, it may call for U.S. combat troops to start coming home.
But the president did, perhaps, get some help in pushing back against one possible recommendation from the Baker-Hamilton group. Today, al-Hakim said that he does not want some sort of a regional solution, a regional effort to solve the problem. He thinks Iraq should solve it itself.
That could be a reference, of course, to Iran. Expectation that the Baker-Hamilton group will call for direct talks between the U.S. and Iran. But apparently al-Hakim giving the president a little help there in pushing back -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, thanks very much.
Ed Henry at the White House.
While that Iraqi power broker visits here in Washington, there's been absolutely no letup to the bloodletting in Baghdad.
And joining us now, our correspondent in Baghdad, Nic Robertson -- Nic, another 106 bodies found over the past two days in Baghdad alone, all of them with signs of torture, shot to death.
It seems like this is becoming a nearly daily occurrence.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is. On an average, perhaps 30 to 50 bodies a day in Baghdad are being discovered by the police, just discarded around the city. They seem to be the result of sectarian killings, often because there are so many bodies and it takes so long to identify them all, it's not clear how many were Sunnis, how many were Shias.
But it doesn't seem to be happening across both communities. The violence is on a big scale. Today, two doctors abducted, kidnapped from a hospital; four Agricultural Ministry workers shot to death; and the list goes on. A journalist killed today, shot to death as he left for work in the morning. It's increasingly violent here -- Wolf.
BLITZER: And as this is happening, the president of the United States here in Washington meeting with Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, this Shiite politician, very influential, with close ties to Iran. It looks like Mr. Bush is trying to cover his bases, reaching out to other political, influential political figures in Iraq beyond the prime minister.
ROBERTSON: You know what was very interesting here, Wolf, is Abdul Aziz al-Hakim came out and when he spoke after that meeting with President Bush he said, you know, we are a united government. And that seemed to be the clearest signal for perhaps the audience back here in Iraq and the United States and for President Bush that he is giving his support publicly, at least behind the embattled prime minister, Nouri Al-Maliki.
But he also sort of was scoring political points here at home, as well, because he talks about it being an Iraqi problem and there needing to be an Iraqi solution.
And back here in Iraq, that will be read as meaning that Iraqis want more control over their security. They think if they control security more and take a greater role from U.S. forces here that they can do a better job.
So he's trying to score points there, as well.
But he also shot down the notion of a regional conference. One of the big concerns here in Iraq is that too many countries outside are trying to interfere too much inside Iraq.
So, knocking down that idea of a regional conference will be popular back here, as well, in Iraq -- Wolf.
BLITZER: And there's no doubt this could be a major setback to the Iraq Study Group recommendations, which, by all accounts, want some sort of regional involvement, a regional conference, including all of Iraq's neighbors. But now the Shia in Iraq are saying we don't want the Sunnis and Saudi Arabia or Jordan involved in internal Iraqi matters. And the Kurds in the north, they're saying we don't want Turkey involved in Iraq's matters.
So that notion of any regional cooperation may be down the drain for now.
Nic Robertson reporting for us from Baghdad.
Thanks, Nic.
And he won't be in the hot seat until tomorrow, but Defense Secretary nominee Robert Gates was on Capitol Hill today testing the temperature ahead of his confirmation hearings.
Meantime, the leak of a classified memo from outgoing Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld raising more questions today.
Let's turn to our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, of course, this private memo to President Bush wasn't supposed to become public.
Or was it?
What some people say it shows that Rumsfeld had an epiphany. Others say it's just more of a parting shot.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): As Iraq was sliding further into chaos just before the November election, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld dropped one of his famous snowflakes on the White House -- a terse, to the point memo calling for, in his words, "a major adjustment in U.S. strategy."
In fact, Rumsfeld quoted from his secret missive later that week, right after he had been asked to step down.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: It is clear that in phase two of this, it has not been going well enough or fast enough.
MCINTYRE: In the memo, Rumsfeld ruminated about, but stopped short of recommending, some radical ideas, which he called "illustrative options" such as having U.S. troops only patrol where they are welcome and withholding aid from violent areas of Iraq, the kind of tough love approach advocated by some of Rumsfeld's political adversaries.
In fact, one suggestion seemed like a line right out of a press release from Democrat and vocal critic John Murtha: "Begin modest withdrawals, taking our hand off the bicycle seat," Rumsfeld called it, "so Iraqis have to pull up their socks, step up."
This was not the glass half full Rumsfeld that people were used to seeing opening the Pentagon briefing with broadsides against overly negative press coverage. And it has critics fuming that Rumsfeld was either in denial or deliberately disingenuous.
MICHAEL O'HANLON, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: It basically says the primary architect of the war now knows we're losing and headed for defeat unless things change radically.
MCINTYRE: But to his supporters, Rumsfeld's memo, perhaps his last snowflake, was classic Rumsfeld -- always questioning and looking for fresh ideas.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: I always thought the idea that Secretary Rumsfeld did not listen to others or did not welcome different people's ideas a bad rap.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
MCINTYRE: As for how much Rumsfeld's lame duck news will have on the next moves in Iraq, some of his aides are quietly suggesting it's no coincidence that some of the ideas he outlined in his memo are going to show up in the Iraq Study Group report when it's released later this week -- Wolf.
BLITZER: So, I mean he started off very intriguing, Jamie.
Is it -- people over there suggesting that Rumsfeld or his supporters deliberately leaked this memo to Michael Gordon of the "New York Times?"
MCINTYRE: Well, it's -- we have no idea who leaked the memo and what their motivations were. But you have to say that this memo makes Rumsfeld look like he's got a better grasp on reality than what some people thought.
So presumably it would have been leaked by one of his friends.
BLITZER: All right, Jamie, thanks very much.
Jamie is at the Pentagon.
Meanwhile, we're learning of the news that the White House says took President Bush by surprise. The U.S. ambassador to the U.N. John Bolton, is resigning. Today, the White House announced he handed in his resignation Friday and that the president was surprised, but accepted it reluctantly.
Bolton will step aside when this current session of Congress ends, perhaps this week. The president used his recess appointment authority in 2005 to appoint Bolton. But Bolton's appointment was to end soon in any case. And with Democrats taking control of Congress, Bolton's chance for being confirmed as the United Nations ambassador was in jeopardy, clearly not likely to happen.
Let's check back with Jack for "The Cafferty File" -- Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He said he was surprised.
How could he be surprised?
It was made clear the day after the election his nomination was dead in the water.
BLITZER: He says he was surprised.
CAFFERTY: Ah.
Defense Secretary nominee Robert Gates is set to appear before the Senate Armed Services Committee tomorrow. It will be the first step in his confirmation hearings, a process that is expected to go smoothly. The mess in Iraq expected to be the focus, but senators in both parties say they support the Gates nomination.
Gates ran the CIA between 1991 and 1993. But then he left government in order to take up a career in the private sector, in the business world.
And that's raising flags among some watchdog groups, according to the story in the "Los Angeles Times."
Since leaving the public service 14 years ago, Gates has worked for 10 different companies, including investment houses, defense contractors and an oil drilling company, and several of these companies have secured hefty, no bid Pentagon contracts.
Here's the question -- should the business ties of the secretary of defense nominee, Robert Gates, play a role in his confirmation hearings?
E-mail your thoughts to caffertyfile@cnn.com or go to cnn.com/caffertyfile -- Wolf.
BLITZER: He is giving up his position as president of Texas A&M University to become secretary of defense.
CAFFERTY: Well, I don't think that was one of the positions that might be considered controversial. But he had some other jobs with companies that, as I mentioned, had no bid Pentagon contracts and with all of the hoopla that's been raised over outfits like Halliburton, in conjunction with the war, I just wonder if there aren't some on Capitol Hill who might say wait a second, exactly what kind of link do you have with some of these firms and how might that impact your job as the guy who will be the new architect of the war in Iraq?
BLITZER: All right, we'll see what happens at the confirmation hearings all day tomorrow. Jack, thank you for that.
Up ahead, the top U.S. commander in Iraq and pointing fingers at Iran.
CNN's Barbara Starr is the only network correspondent traveling with General John Abizaid. Her exclusive interview coming up.
Also, a fierce gun-battle between NATO forces and Taliban militants -- just the latest sign raising new concerns about Afghanistan.
And Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton sending new signals about a possible run-for the White House.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: More now on our top story, a very big week, potentially, involving Iraq.
Our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, has been exclusively traveling with the military commander in charge of the Middle East. And in an exclusive interview, General John Abizaid says that Iran is involved in Iraq in a very clandestine way.
Our Barbara Starr is joining us with more -- Barbara.
BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the key question -- can the government of Prime Minister Nouri Al-Maliki hold together in the face of mounting pressure?
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
STARR (voice-over): As the Shia and Sunni killings across Baghdad reach new levels, General John Abizaid, the top commander for U.S. military forces in the Middle East, says Iraqi Shia militias are being directly trained and financed by the government of Iran, something the Iranian government has denied.
GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, COMMANDER, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: It's clear that money is coming in through their intelligence services, training is probably being conducted inside Iran through various surrogates and proxies. Iranian equipment is finding its way into the hands of Shia extremist groups. It's hard to believe that that's not a matter of policy from the Iranian government.
STARR: CNN has been the only network traveling with Abizaid. In this exclusive interview, he leaves no doubt about the involvement of Iran in the Iraqi militias that U.S. troops are fighting.
ABIZAID: It's also clear to me that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard could force intelligence personnel who are operating within the country and are operating in a way that does not support stability or the current legitimately elected government of Iraq. STARR: For Abizaid, this trip into the combat zone comes at a time when the Washington political wars dominate the news. But he is determined to stay out of that fray. This trip has focused on talking to commanders, trying to get a sense of whether they think Iraqi forces will remain loyal to the new government.
There is continuing concern about police units in Baghdad.
ABIZAID: But as you heard today in some of the conversations with our various commanders, some of them are very concerned about certain police locations being badly infiltrated and units within the national police not doing their job the way that they should be.
STARR: Abizaid avoids using the word civil war, but his meaning is clear.
ABIZAID: I think the concerns about it spinning into a broad conflict are still there.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
STARR: U.S. military commanders believe the government of Iraq can maintain control of the security forces, which is key to avoiding all out civil war.
But commanders also say that Iraq is in a period of crucial instability and any major draw down of U.S. combat forces could still be months away -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Barbara, thanks very much.
Barbara Starr reporting for us from Iraq.
Let's turn now to a very disturbing situation, a deteriorating situation in Afghanistan. We have some very compelling pictures of a dramatic gun-battle there. There is growing concern about efforts to try to stabilize Afghanistan while keeping the Taliban at bay.
We'll talk to CNN's Tom Foreman.
He's here in THE SITUATION ROOM with this part of the story -- Tom.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, there's been undeniable progress in Afghanistan over the past few years, but this year a lot of things have not been looking so great.
You go from Iraq, across here to Afghanistan. We'll talk about the situation. Obviously, aloof U.S. troops still here. They're generally operating in the red part of the country over there, along the Pakistani border. But what we're talking about right now is the southern part of the country, the Helmand Province, where, in fact, there's been a great resurgence this year of the Taliban. And it came to a head quite recently in a battle with British troops up in this valley and this little town.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
FOREMAN (voice-over): Five years after the U.S. toppled the Taliban government, the battle for Afghanistan continues. This fierce firefight between British NATO forces and Taliban militants raging in the troubled southern province of Helmand. NATO says between 70 and 80 Taliban militants were killed, with no casualties among the British.
There is no Afghan Army to take on the Taliban, only a national police force. And now there are troubling new questions about its capabilities.
A joint Pentagon-State Department report says that as of this summer, the Afghan National Police Force was incapable of conducting law enforcement operations despite more than $1 billion being spent on training.
The report says the force is poorly equipped. Some 70 percent of its recruits are illiterate and no one even knows exactly how many police there are, since there is no system for keeping track of the force.
The goal is to have the Afghan National Police fully capable by 2010. But the report says everyone agrees that it will require help long after that.
There are also other causes for concern in Afghanistan. The number of suicide bombings is up dramatically, with Taliban militants taking a cue from insurgents in Iraq. This attack in Kandahar was the fourth there in a week, including one that killed two Canadian soldiers. NATO says there have been more than 100 suicide bombings this year.
At the same time, opium production is up 61 percent from last year, according to the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, despite tremendous efforts to eradicate poppy fields and get Afghan farmers to switch to other crops.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
FOREMAN: this is one of the large opium producing parts of the country. Largely, the south is being patrolled by the British, the Canadian and the Dutch. The Americans are more over here to the east, as we said before.
But all of this combines to raise serious concerns about the efforts to stabilize Afghanistan at a time when so much attention has been focused on Iraq.
As far as the report on the police force, a spokesman for Afghanistan's Interior Ministry says officials there are satisfied with the training program, but they think they could use better equipment and weapons.
Some good news, some bad news, but clearly more bad than any of the forces there would like to see right now. BLITZER: Very worrisome what's going on.
Thanks very much for that, Tom.
Appreciate it.
And coming up, will she or won't she?
There are new indications about whether Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton will run-for president in 2008.
Plus, an unusual alliance raising eyebrows -- oil tying together a former Kennedy congressman and Venezuela's Hugo Chavez.
Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's check in with Carol Costello for a closer look at some other stories making news -- Carol.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Wolf.
Hello to all of you.
The Supreme Court is wrestling over the issue of integration rules in public schools. Hundreds of people protested outside the Court today, most of them affirmative action advocates. The justices are considering whether programs in Seattle and Louisville, Kentucky are acceptable moves toward student diversity or if they involve illegal racial quotas. Justice Anthony Kennedy could hold the deciding vote. Today he joined his conservative colleagues in expressing skepticism about the programs.
Another Republican taking a major step toward a possible presidential run. Senator Sam Brownback of Kansas opened a presidential exploratory committee today with the Federal Election Commission. He is the third Republican to open such a committee, along with John McCain and Rudy Giuliani. Brownback is expected to try to appeal to social conservatives. He is against abortion and is against human cloning.
An American is among a group of people arrested in Egypt for allegedly planning terror attacks in the Middle East, including Iraq. That is the word from Egypt's Interior Ministry. The group is said to include 11 Europeans and several Arabs. The Ministry says the suspects had links to international terror organizations and it says they were in Egypt under the pretext of studying Arabic and Islamic law.
That's a look at the headlines right now -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Carol, for that.
Carol will be back shortly.
Coming up, a New York state of mind in the race to 2008.
Is Governor George Pataki what Republican voters are looking for right now?
I'll ask him about his presidential ambitions and the stiff competition.
And the leading lady of Empire State politics -- is Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton closer to launching a White House campaign?
We're reading the senator's latest signals.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: To our viewers, you are in THE NEWSROOM, where new pictures and information are arriving all the time.
Happening now, President Bush tells Iraq's leading Shiite politician he's not satisfied with the level of killing and chaos. Mr. Bush met with Abdul Aziz al-Hakim at the White House at the start of a pivotal week in the search for a solution in Iraq.
On the agenda in the days ahead, Robert Gates' confirmation hearings and the Iraq Study Group's long awaited recommendations to the president.
Mr. Bush's choice to lead the Pentagon was on Capitol Hill today, on the eve of his confirmation hearings.
And the investigation into the poisoning of a former Russian spy keeps widening. British authorities now saying they are checking two more locations, including a London hotel, for possible radiation contamination.
I'm Wolf Blitzer and you're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
She's one of the most closely watched politicians in the country when it comes to the next election and now Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton is sending out new signals putting her possibly closer to a run for the White House in '08. Let's turn to CNN's Mary Snow, she's in New York with the latest developments. Mary?
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, while Senator Clinton is closely watched, she has had to share the spotlight in recent weeks as other names emerge as potential candidates in 2008. But Senator Clinton is back in the headlines with signals she's possibly stepping closer to a presidential run.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW (voice-over): A political adviser says Senator Hillary Clinton has been seeking advice and counsel in private meetings with New York Democrats. On Sunday, governor-elect Eliot Spitzer met at his home with Senator Clinton for two hours. Last Wednesday, she had a breakfast meeting with Congressman Charles Rangel, one of her early supporters in 2000, one who encouraged her to run in New York. Their staffs didn't want to elaborate on the discussions, neither did Senator Charles Schumer who says he's meeting with Senator Clinton next week.
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER, (D) NEW YORK: Look, I think she would make a very good president but let's wait and see. Everyone is sort of jumping the gun here.
SNOW: But the nonstop talk about a possible 2008 run has been fueled by the staff she is accumulated and the millions she has raised during her Senate campaign. Senator Clinton has been reluctant to talk about 2008 but during a debate in October, she was put on the spot about whether she is considering a run for president.
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, (D) NEW YORK: It is hard not to think about it because people talk to me about it all the time. But I have not engaged in any planning or serious thought about it and I have certainly made no decisions.
SNOW: On recent meetings and phone calls to New York Democrats, Clinton's political adviser Howard Wolfson explained it this way. "She said before the election that after the election she would be considering a presidential run. Part of that process is seeking the advice and counsel of her colleagues in New York." Some democratic strategists say those New York Democrats can serve as messengers.
DOUG HATTHAWAY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Her challenge is getting Americans to see her for who she is in her own right. So I think getting folks onboard in New York to talk about the great job she has done there is a really smart move.
(END OF VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: And what about forming an exploratory committee to test the waters for a presidential run? A source close to Senator Clinton's campaign says it is likely to come in January and less likely to happen before the end of the year. Wolf?
BLITZER: Mary Snow in New York, thank you. And Hillary Rodham Clinton isn't the only New Yorker eying the White House. On the Republican side there's the former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani. The current mayor, Michael Bloomberg and the outgoing governor, George Pataki. George Pataki is joining us now live from our New York bureau. Governor, thanks very much for coming in.
GOV. GEORGE PATAKI, (R) NEW YORK: Nice to be with you Wolf.
BLITZER: How close are you to making that decision whether to seek the Republican presidential nomination?
PATAKI: Well, obviously, it's a very important and momentous decision and it's something I have to not just think about, talk to my family about, and then make a decision. I expect within the next few weeks I'll decide one way or the other what to do here.
BLITZER: The next theoretical move would be to create that exploratory committee. Would you take that step?
PATAKI: If in fact I decide to do that that would be the next step. You create an exploratory committee and begin to raise the funds and make the trips.
BLITZER: What are you hearing from your family? What do they think about the idea? Because it affects everyone in your family as you well know.
PATAKI: It does affect everyone and I have been really fortunate. I have served as governor now almost 12 years in New York. And my wife Libby and my four kids have been enormously supportive. And we'll make a joint family decision but ultimately I think whatever I conclude, Libby and the kids would be supportive of.
BLITZER: In our recent CNN poll last month, November 17 through 19, we had Giuliani and McCain among registered Republicans with 33 and 30 percent respectively, a whole bunch of other candidates way down. You were only at 1 percent in that poll. What do you attribute that to?
PATAKI: Well I think, Wolf, if people had taken a poll in 1993 about who is going to be the next governor of New York, I don't know if I would have gotten one percent. I was virtually unknown. But when you work hard, when you have good ideas, and the proper vision, in this case for New York State, you can overcome wherever you might be in the polls. And if I do make the decision, I'm confident that the American people want to see someone who has run a significant government, who does believe in bringing the American people together so that we can work on practical ways to solve the very real challenges to face our country. But as I said, you know, I'm thinking about it. I'm still the governor, we're going to have a special session of the legislature next week and I hope to get some important legislation through. Certainly, after that, at some point I'll make a decision.
BLITZER: When it comes to Iraq, governor, where do you see the situation right now? If you were the president of the United States, what would you do right now?
PATAKI: Well I was in Iraq last week. And I have to tell you, Wolf, it was very distressing to see the level of violence and to see how since I had been there 2 1/2 years ago it does seem like the whole civil situation has gotten significantly worse. What I think we have to do, the president just met this afternoon with one of the leading Shia members of parliament, supporters of parliament. We have got to put pressure on the Iraqi government to finally show that it can in fact govern. They don't have to win a war in one day. But they have to have some confidence from the public that they can get things done. I'll just give you some examples. If I were the president I would tell President Maliki and his colleagues in government that you have a limited period of time to get this done. They have to pass petroleum legislation so they can give all corners of the country confidence that they will share appropriately in the funds they get from petroleum. They should pass legislation allowing some of the Baathist party members who were kicked out of government and kicked out of civil activities to come back in when they weren't high level people. They should show a commitment to deliver services. They should say that they were going to do whatever is necessary to reign in Al Sadr's Shia militias that are having a negative impact on both the civil situation in Iraq and then our troops. So I think the most important thing for us, if we are going to keep our troops there as the Shia leaders want us to do, is to tell them that they have to show that they can effectively govern. And put --
BLITZER: In effect, put up or shut up, how much time would you give them?
PATAKI: Put up or shut up. I would give them a very short period of time.
BLITZER: Be specific.
PATAKI: I don't think you can do that. I don't think you can tell a democratically elected government that have you three weeks, a month, two months to pass this particular bill. But these are not difficult things to do. The petroleum legislation, the Baathfication legislation, a commitment to reign in Al Sadr and his militia, these are the things the Iraqi government should be able do in a short period of time. And by the way, Wolf, it seems to me that al Sadr -- there's a model there. He's getting support militarily with munitions and others from Iran. I think they see him as the equivalent in Iraq of Hezbollah in Lebanon. And that's why it's absolutely essential that the Maliki government show a willingness to go after him in a very, very short period of time.
BLITZER: It sounds to me you're closer to Republican Senator Chuck Hagel when it comes to Iraq than you are to Republican Senator John McCain, who wants to beef up the U.S. military presence there, send thousands more troops in.
PATAKI: Well what we have to do is tell the Iraqi government that we are prepared to stand with them and win the war against terror and make sure that we defend democracy in Iraq, but only to the extent that they show the ability to actually lead, to govern, and to help solve the problems instead of creating greater problems. That has not happened yet.
BLITZER: One final question before I let you go governor. A social moderate as you are on such issues as abortion rights or gay rights, can you get a Republican presidential nomination with the kind of positions that you have?
PATAKI: I don't think there's any question that someone who has a vision and a proven record of leadership, whoever that person might be, consistent with Republican philosophies of limited government and belief in empowering people as opposed to bureaucracies can win the nomination and the election more importantly.
BLITZER: We'll be waiting and listening to see what your decision is. Governor, thanks very much for coming in.
PATAKI: Thank you, Wolf. BLITZER: Appreciate it. Still to come here in THE SITUATION ROOM, former Congressman Joe Kennedy, helping the poor but angering some people in the process. It's a controversy involving Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez. Plus, what to expect in the confirmation hearings for Defense Secretary Nominee Robert Gates from someone who has been there. Former Defense Secretary William Cohen, he's standing by live. Stay with us, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: It appears to be a relationship solidified by oil. An alliance between a man with little love for President Bush and a former U.S. congressman who's a member of the Kennedy clan. And while some are benefiting from the alliance, others find it very offensive. Let's turn to CNN's Carol Costello, she's watching the story for us. Carol?
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Here's the story Wolf. Despite a drop in the price of oil many Americans will still have a tough time paying their heating bills this winter. Well, never fear. Joe Kennedy says Mr. Chavez is here. Begging some to ask the question -- at what price cheaper oil?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COSTELLO (voice-over): His is the mouth that roared delighting and referring to President Bush as a madman, a tyrant. And while at the United Nations, the devil.
PRES. HUGO CHAVEZ, VENEZUELA: Yesterday the devil came here, right here. Right here and it smells of sulfur still today.
COSTELLO: Name calling that in part scored Hugo Chavez another big presidential win in Venezuela. And some political watchers say oddly, Chavez's name calling didn't put a stop to a program he says comes from his big heart.
JOSEPH KENNEDY: I'm Joe Kennedy, help is on the way. Heating oil at 40 percent off from our friends in Venezuela and Citgo.
COSTELLO: Former U.S. Representative Joseph Kennedy now runs the Citizens Energy Corporation, a nonprofit heating assistance program that's advertising its relationship with Citgo via television ads. Citgo, an oil company operated in the USA, but owned by the government of Hugo Chavez, is paying for the commercials. It's an arrangement some find appalling.
JOHN FUND, COLUMNIST, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": You not only get oil, you get cheap, free propaganda.
COSTELLO: John Fund is with "The Wall Street Journal."
FUND: This is a temporary reprieve from what people are believe are high fuel prices because Chavez wants to score cheap propaganda points. COSTELLO: Kennedy seems unconcerned by the criticism. Here he is in New York pumping the first delivery of discounted oil for this coming winter.
JOSEPH KENNEDY II, CITIZENS ENERGY CORPORATION: It is the leadership of President Hugo Chavez who has recognized the struggles of so many poor people that we need to be grateful -- in 30 years there was only one country, only one country that ever gave us a price break. And that's the Venezuelans.
COSTELLO: What matters, he says, is the disadvantaged, like those depicted in Citgo's commercial.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wear two pairs of long underwear and a jacket and that's inside my house.
COSTELLO: People just like that, he says, 400,000 in 16 states, due to get cheaper oil this winter. It will happen despite critics who say the real price is too high to pay.
(END OF VIDEOTAPE)
COSTELLO: As we told you, Mr. Chavez just won another six-year term in Venezuela. He told his adoring supporters it's another defeat for the devil who tries to dominate the world and, Wolf, you know who he means.
BLITZER: Yes and there's been a lot of controversy surrounding former Congressman Kennedy's decision. We're going to be speaking with him here in THE SITUATION ROOM later in the week Carol. Thank you very much for that. Up ahead, are you concerned about the ties between the next possible defense secretary and companies that have contracts with the Pentagon? Jack Cafferty will be back with your e- mail. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's check in with Lou Dobbs to see what's coming up right at the top of the hour. Hi Lou.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Hi Wolf, thank you. Coming up at 6:00 p.m. eastern here on CNN, tonight we're reporting on Democratic determination to push through legislation to give amnesty to millions of illegal aliens. We'll have our special report, our guests tonight on illegal immigration, Governor Bill Richardson and on U.S. citizenship and immigration services granting of citizenship to as many as 30,000 people, despite missing documents, Senator Charles Grassley. And, the Supreme Court considering one of the most complex and divisive social issues facing the country, the issue of racial diversity in our public education system. Should public schools use race as a factor in admissions. We'll be examining the legal arguments. And the controversy over the case of six Muslim clerics who were removed from a US Airways aircraft. Was it racial and religious profiling or did their conduct warrant suspicion and immediate action. And what is the difference between racial profiling and affirmative action? We'll be joined by our senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. All of that and a great deal more, straight ahead here at the top of the hour. Please join us. Back to you, Wolf?
BLITZER: Thanks very much Lou. We'll be watching. Does today's visit by a key Iraqi power broker make a key proposal and does it make a difference and will a key proposal from the Iraq Study Group turn out to be a nonstarter? Joining us now, the former Defense Secretary William Cohen, he's chairman and CEO of The Cohen Group here in Washington. Thanks very much for coming in. I want to get to all of that in a moment, but first, this Rumsfeld memo that we woke up yesterday morning and read in the "New York Times." Among other things he wrote, "In my view it is time for a major adjustment. Clearly, what U.S. forces are currently doing in Iraq is not working well enough or fast enough. I was pretty surprised to read the text of that memo. I don't know how you reacted.
WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: I was surprised and some have indicated perplexed as to why it would come at this particular point, shortly before he was to depart from office. It's fairly late in the game to say that the game plan hasn't been working and I think that had the president had this memo months earlier, or certainly those members who were running for re-election had the advantage of this, it might have been a different story as far as the election is concerned. But certainly the timing is perplexing.
BLITZER: The timing, also, if you take a look at November 5th, the president has that meeting with Robert Gates, to sound him out about becoming defense secretary. On November 6th, Rumsfeld writes this memo. November 7th there is the election. November 8th Rumsfeld effectively is fired. I don't know if the memo was written to try to save his job or what. But it clearly, if it was, it didn't work.
COHEN: It didn't work and I'm not sure what the rationale would be for it. You may recall in the past that Rumsfeld also indicated -- he raised questions, as you called it snowflakes earlier. Are we killing more insurgents or are we creating more? He raised that I think at least a couple of years ago and the answer was, well we're creating more than we're actually eliminating.
BLITZER: What do you make of this meeting the president had today with this Shiite leader Abdul Aziz al Hakim at the White House? He's very pro-Iranian, spent years there. And he flatly rejected any notion of a regional cooperation, regional conference to bring in all of Iraq's neighbors. He said this is an Iraq issue. He wants the Iraqis to do it themselves.
COHEN: Well, it's interesting in terms of what is the rationale for the president to meeting with him at this time. You can look at it a number of different ways. Number one, it may have been an effort on the part of the president to form help, reinforce this notion of a unity government, have this individual work very closely with the Prime Minister al Maliki. It may be that the president's hedging his bet as some have speculated that Maliki may not make it. If that's the case maybe this is the new man to put the bet on. Or it may be that he is trying forge a relationship between Maliki and this gentleman so they can isolate Sadr, Muqtada al Sadr.
BLITZER: Who's a rival for Abdul Aziz al Hakim. COHEN: Who's a rival for and it may be that if he were to say let's bring Iran at this point, this might send a signal that he's too close to Iran.
BLITZER: I was struck by the fact that Abdul Aziz al Hakim, this Shiite leader, basically saying to the Sunnis, the neighbors, the Saudis, the Egyptians and the Jordanians, you know what, stay out of our business here in Iraq. He doesn't like those Sunnis. This the day after Jalal Talabani who is an Iraqi Kurd saying we don't want an international conference because he doesn't like the Turks. The Turkish government, Turkey involved, because of the animosity between the Kurds and the Turks. So if the Baker-Hamilton Commission is going to make a recommendation for regional cooperation, you have two of the most powerful political leaders in Iraq saying that's not going to fly.
COHEN: We're now into the political thicket. Anyone who's going to try to second-guess what can take place in terms of putting this group together I think has to be a real optimist or visionary because you have so many competing interests. It's very hard to say who's going to be on top or bottom or what the game being played is. I think the Baker Commission will still recommend there be a regional approach. My question would be can we actually start talking to the Iranians before we have any leverage? We don't have any leverage with them at this particular point. And that issue of nuclear power versus nuclear weapons is still very much in the front burner. The longer this goes on unresolved it seems to me we're going to be on the downside both of the political issue in Iraq but also the political issue and the military issue dealing with nuclear weapons in the hands of the Iranians.
BLITZER: Secretary Cohen, thanks for coming in.
COHEN: Pleasure to be here.
BLITZER: All right. And Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger had declared a state of emergency in southern California where wildfires have scorched 10,000 acres and destroyed five homes and two businesses. About 1,500 firefighters are working to try to contain the fire right now. Tracking the blaze online is our Internet reporter Jacki Schechner. Jacki?
JACKI SCHECHNER, CNN INTERNET REPORTER: Wolf, we have an i- Reporter in Moorpark, California. This is Michael Liacko who says that the fire came so close to his home that it actually turned his pool black instead of blue. He says his daughters were frightened. But once they saw the helicopters overhead, they felt much better. Speaking of helicopters, Bradley Verant is posting his photos online at the group photo blog flickr.com. This photograph taken from his home, you can see the helicopter there and nothing but black smoke. He then left his house, he lives about three or four miles away from the fire and got close enough to take these images. He says because the fire is so large there was little crowd control. Other resources online, Ventura County is posting its updates. The good news on this is the blaze is now 35 percent contained, they expect to have it under control by 6:00 pacific time tomorrow. They have their own photos online and we have them linked for you at THE SITUATION ROOM blog. Wolf?
BLITZER: Thank you very much Jacki for that. Up next, should the business ties of Defense Secretary Nominee Robert Gates play a role in his confirmation hearings? Jack with your email when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: There's Jack Cafferty, he has The Cafferty File. Jack?
JACK CAFFERTY: The "Los Angeles Times" reports some watchdog groups are concerned about the business relationships of Defense Secretary Nominee Robert Gates, so the question is should those business ties of the secretary of defense nominee Gates play a role in his confirmation hearings which begin tomorrow? A.L. writes in Fox, Georgia, "Sure, Robert Gates' past should be examined as part of the confirmation process. This administration has been about big business and feathering their nests. It would be great to think that just once we could keep one of these guys from joining the government crowd." Kevin writes, "In a situation where we have the dissolution of the only office that has oversight on spending in Iraq, do we really want someone that has worked for some of these companies in a position like Secretary of Defense? Whatever happened to attempting to eliminate conflict of interest? Was it a joke from the beginning?"
R.S. in Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, "My wife, who was in government, she could not accept a cookie, much less a sandwich from people she was involved with. We had to list our mutual funds every year, as if we could influence any of them. What is wrong with our government where the most influential people who can benefit from conflict of interests don't appear to ever have any? While participating in their $500 K. Street dinner meals, educational trips to the Caribbean, Tokyo, etcetera." And Al in Hugo, Oklahoma, "The no-bid contracts raise a crowd of flags but anyone who keeps his briefcase packed and works at 10 jobs in 13 years deserves some very deep scrutiny."
If you didn't see your email here you can go to cnn.com/caffertyfile where you can see more of them online.
BLITZER: Jack thank you. See you back here in one hour. We're here in THE SITUATION ROOM, 7:00 p.m. eastern. In the meantime, let's check in with Lou. He's in New York. Lou?
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.voxant.com
