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The Situation Room

All Executions Suspended in Florida

Aired December 15, 2006 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Kitty. And to our viewers, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM where new pictures and information are arriving all the time. Standing by CNN reporters across the United States and around the world to bring you tonight's top stories.
Happening now, breaking news, a double barreled blow to capital punishment in America. Florida's governor suspends all executions after a botched lethal injection and a federal judge in California rules that state's lethal injection method is broken and can't be fixed.

Also this hour -- a farewell salute to Donald Rumsfeld. President Bush never mentions the elephant in the room, heated criticism of the Pentagon chief and the war in Iraq.

And leading pastor and best-selling author Rick Warren teaming up with Senator Barack Obama. Does Rick Warren think the Illinois Democrat has what it takes to be president? I'll ask him.

I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

Tonight the most widely used form of capital punishment in the United States is under fire on two fronts. The Florida governor, Jeb Bush today suspended all executions in his state after a lethal injection of a convicted killer went wrong. And a federal judge has ruled that California's method of lethal injection is unconstitutional because it runs the risk of being cruel and unusual punishment.

Let's begin our coverage this hour and go to Florida. CNN's John Zarrella joining us live. John?

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, it is not really a surprise that Governor Jeb Bush late this afternoon issued the executive order which is stopping all lethal injections in the state of Florida. All future death penalty cases put on hold by the governor until there is some answers to what happened to Angel Nieves Diaz. Now, the execution on December 13 went wrong.

It usually takes about 15 minutes or so for the victim to die from his three-drug cocktail that's administered. In this case it took about 34 minutes for Nieves Diaz to die. What happened, apparently, according to an autopsy that has been performed, was that the needles injected into -- put into his arm were put in wrong, went through the veins and went in to the fatty tissue. That's what may have, according to the autopsy, required a second dose of drugs to be administered, the second lethal dose to be administered.

Now the governor has also now formed a commission which will report back to him on March 1. The commission will look in to the administration of lethal injection in Florida to see if there are any issues with cruel and unusual punishment. In his note today and part of his statement, the governor said quote, "the team assembled by the Department of Corrections Secretary Jim McDonough continues to conduct a thorough process review of the execution of Angel Diaz. All facts and information gathered by the team will be presented to the commission."

Now following these developments today, Angel Nieves Diaz's attorney spoke out about what happened to her client.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUZANNE KEFFER, ATTORNEY FOR ANGEL NIEVES DIAZ (via phone): This execution took 34 minutes, almost three times longer than any other inmate and during the course of that execution, Mr. Diaz in fact was trying to speak, it looked like. His body shuttered. He was gasping for air for at least 11 minutes. It was very clear that he was suffering pain.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZARRELLA: Now, this is not, of course, the first time that Florida's methods of execution have come in to question. In the '90s there were two different cases of the execution by electric chair where the victims' heads were literally caught on fire, appeared to be smoking. So, again, Wolf, not the first time, and it was the results of what had happened with the electric chair cases that led Florida to use lethal injection -- it turned to lethal injection, which the state felt was not cruel and unusual. Now, that is open to debate here in the state of Florida. Wolf?

BLITZER: All right, John, thank you very much, John Zarrella on the scene for us.

Florida and California, two of the largest death row populations in the nation, and right now executions by lethal injection in both states are on hold. Let's talk about the Florida governor's decision today as well as a judge's new ruling in California with our senior legal analyst Jeff Toobin. He's joining us on the phone.

A lot of people are asking a simple question. What's the difference if they execute someone in five minutes or 34 minutes?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST (via phone): Well, the Constitution says, the Eighth Amendment says, there can be no cruel and unusual punishment, and the Supreme Court has said that applies to the death penalty, too, that when you're executing someone you have to do it in a way that is neither cruel nor unusual. It's kind of a paradox, you're killing someone, but that's what the Supreme Court has said.

The problem that states have struggled with now for decades is how to do that. They used to do hangings. They used to do the electric chair. They used to do the gas chamber and lethal injection was supposed to be a humane alternative. Subsequent research has established that it is not as painless as was thought, and, in fact, the active ingredient in the three-drug cocktail that is used in almost every state was recently banned for the use of putting animals to sleep by veterinarians because it was thought to be cruel to animals. Those are the kind of issues that the court system is now struggling with.

BLITZER: So what's going to happen now, assuming capital punishment in the United States remains legal, the Supreme Court's going to have to get involved in this, I assume, Jeff.

TOOBIN: That almost certainly is the case, because the decision that the California judge, Judge Fogel handed down today, similar cases are pending all over the country regarding lethal injection. Tennessee and Florida, and courts are reaching different conclusions about the -- about whether lethal injections can proceed. That is always when the Supreme Court steps in to resolve disagreements among the federal court and almost certainly in the next year or so the Supreme Court is going to have to take up this issue.

BLITZER: Jeff Toobin with some analysis for us on these important developments in California and in Florida, what they could mean for the rest of the country as well. Thanks very much, Jeff.

Meanwhile, other important news we're following -- President Bush gave Donald Rumsfeld a hero sendoff from the Pentagon today, never mentioning the often harsh criticism that led to the defense secretary's resignation. Rumsfeld was honored with full military pomp and circumstance, as he prepares to turn over his job to his successor, Robert Gates on Monday. Mr. Bush and Vice President Cheney offered lavish tributes to Rumsfeld and his six-year tenure at the Pentagon. The president portrayed Rumsfeld's role as an architect of the Iraq war and a historic campaign for freedom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Don Rumsfeld helped see the Iraqi people through the resumption of sovereignty, two elections a referendum to approve the most progressive constitution in the Middle East, in the seating of a newly elected government. On his watch, the United States military helped the Iraqi people establish a constitutional democracy in the heart of the Middle East, a watershed event in the story of freedom.

RICHARD B. CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Don Rumsfeld is the finest secretary of defense this nation has ever had.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: When Rumsfeld went to the podium himself he briefly referred to the main reason he's now calling it quits, the public's disapproval of the Iraq mission.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: America's enemies should not confuse the American people's distaste of war which is real, and which is understandable, with the reluctance to defend our way of life. Enemy after enemy in our history have made that mistake to their regret.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: As the White House looks for a new strategy in Iraq there are signs it's looking right past some of the key recommendations in that report released by the bipartisan Iraq Study Group only a week or so ago.

Let's turn to CNN's Brian Todd. He's watching this part of the story. Brian?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the secretary of state is less than receptive to one of the group's key recommendations, and that's just the latest in a series of lukewarm signals coming from the administration, signals that raise the questions is this group's much anticipated report being blown off by the White House and if so, are its high powered members resentful?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice-over): Their stature and commitment equally impressive, a highly esteemed former secretary of state, a hugely respected former congressman lead nearly a dozen heavyweights from both sides of the political divide to find solutions to a president's most crushing dilemma. They invest nearly a year of their lives, put forth dozens of highly publicized recommendations for a course of action in Iraq. But in the week and a half since the Iraq Study Group's report came out, persistent whispers in Washington, the president and his advisers are distancing themselves from James Baker's panel. The White House denies this on its face but also says...

TONY SNOW, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The touchstone is not the Baker/Hamilton Commission. It's the situation in Iraq and it's the situation in the region.

TODD: Then the secretary of state takes what may be this group's most important recommendation and dumps it on its ear. On the idea of talking directly with Iran and Syria to enlist their help in stabilizing Iraq Condoleezza Rice tells "The Washington Post" they're looking for compensation to do that and that's a problem.

Neither James Baker nor former Congressman Lee Hamilton would comment for our story, but a Baker aide tells us the panel's leadership does not feel dismissed, citing reports that the president is considering sending more troops to Iraq. That, he says, falls within the parameters of the group's recommendations. Analysts including one critic of the report say its lukewarm reception is the result of too much hype.

FRANK GAFFNEY, CENTER FOR SECURITY POLICY: The conventional wisdom in Washington prior to the release of the Baker report was that the administration and the aftermath of the election would basically have no choice but to accept it.

TODD: An expert who helped put the report together says the group never thought that way.

JONATHAN ALTERMAN, IRAQ STUDY GROUP CONTRIBUTOR: I don't think anybody had the illusion that what was going to happen is people who had been arguing very strongly on one side were going to say hey, yes, we were wrong. You're right.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD: John Alterman says at the very least the Iraq Study Group's report has become what he calls the baseline for all future discussions about Iraq. Alterman and another source close to the panel believe some of the study group's recommendations will survive and Alterman says despite what Secretary Rice says now he won't be surprised if this administration does open talks with Iran. Wolf?

BLITZER: Thanks very much for that, Brian Todd reporting. Jack Cafferty has the day off. He'll be back Monday with "The Cafferty File".

Coming up, Fidel Castro, life after his death. A possible rush of refugees armed exiles creating conflict and no change in communist rule. We'll find out why U.S. officials right now are preparing for some worst-case scenarios.

Also, the best-selling author, Pastor Rick Warren joins us to talk about religion, politics and Barack Obama. You're going to want to hear what he says when I ask him if Barack Obama has what it takes to become president.

And personal politics. President Bush weighs in on Mary Cheney's pregnancy. We'll find out how he feels about her decision to raise a baby with her longtime partner.

Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: There are growing indications tonight that the Cuban leader Fidel Castro is nearing death. The Venezuelan president, Hugo Chavez, says he spoke by phone with Castro twice yesterday but he gave no details of Castro's condition. Meanwhile, there are also growing concerns among some about what might happen in the immediate aftermath, including situations that could cause some serious problems for the United States.

Let's turn to our State Department correspondent Zain Verjee for details. Zain?

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, months not years. That's all the time left for a weak, frail Fidel Castro according to National Intelligence Director John Negroponte. (inaudible) appears to be at death's door.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE (voice-over): When Fidel Castro does die, the United States could be faced with new dangers. There are fears Cubans will jump on boats, head to Florida, causing chaos. Preparations are being made just in case.

REAR ADM. DAVID W. KUNKEL, U.S. COAST GUARD: We're standing up for a mass migration.

VERJEE: Experts say that's unlikely to happen, if it was, we'd have seen it by now.

PETER KORNBLUH, SR. ANALYST, NAT'L SECURITY ARCHIVES: And it does not appear that there will be any type of significant exodus from the island.

VERJEE: Another fear -- the Cuban exile community after wild street parties in Miami, they may head to Cuba to pick up relatives, claim back property or some experts say provoke a military confrontation between Cuba and the United States.

KORNBLUH: There is a threat of that type of provocation. The U.S. military has been studying that potential threat for some years now.

VERJEE: A senior Bush administration official tells CNN that Washington is urging Cuban exile groups not to rush the island, and introducing them to immigrants from the former Soviet bloc to show how the transitions from communist rule played out. The U.S. government has a plan to help on the ground in Cuba within weeks to work with the transition government, but some experts say that transition has already happened, and Raul Castro is in charge.

The U.S. plan would also earmark as much as $80 million to support opposition to the regime and lay the groundwork for democracy. On the front page of the Communist Party newspaper this week, a message to the U.S. government -- the Cuban government and people will take charge of guaranteeing the complete failure of these plans to encourage subversion in our country. A U.S. congressional delegation is in Cuba now hoping to open talks with the government.

REP. JEFF FLAKE (R), ARIZONA: Many of us felt that the time is long past to enter a new chapter in relations.

VERJEE: The State Department opposes the trip, its view talk to Cuba only when it has a leader who wants democratic change.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE: Experts say the day after Castro dies may not be much different. One U.S. official says Raul seems harder and more orthodox than even Fidel. Potential reformers may lie low for a while before making any move for real change from within. Wolf? BLITZER: Thanks for that -- Zain Verjee at the State Department. Some Miami residents, including members of the Latino community, are blasting a Colorado congressman as a racist, and Florida's Governor Jeb Bush calling him -- and I'm quoting now -- "a nut".

They're livid because Republican Tom Tancredo likened their city to a third world country. Tonight Tancredo isn't backing down from that view, even after being threatened and having an appearance cancelled.

CNN's John Zarrella once again with this controversy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa, whoa, you're in broadcasting with that type of English?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

ZARRELLA (voice-over): Enrique Santos doesn't sugarcoat how he feels about Republican Congressman Tom Tancredo.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The real problem is people like him that and -- they're racist. He's a bigot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Miami-Dade County -- (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).

ZARRELLA: Santos and Joe Ferraro (ph) are the irreverent hosts of a Spanish language radio show in Miami.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How we feel him coming to the third world country called -- that he so calls Miami?

ZARRELLA: Since last month when Tancredo, a Colorado congressman and outspoken opponent of illegal immigration likened Miami to a third-world country. The radio hosts have blasted him and defended Miami's salsa flavor.

ENRIQUE SANTOS, RADIO SHOW HOST: We may come from third-world country but we've built this city of what it is, our...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We built the city on not rock and roll...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We built this city on not rock and roll in this case, but on -- (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE) and we're proud of it, damn it.

ZARRELLA: Tancredo's remarks had Florida's Republican governor steamed, too.

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: What a nut. I'm just disappointed. First of all, you know from a -- he's from my own party. He's a Republican. He doesn't represent my views. ZARRELLA: But it didn't end there. Now the feud between Tancredo and Miami has boiled over again. The congressman was supposed to be the guest speaker Thursday at a Rotary Club luncheon in Miami, but he was cancelled because of concerns over safety and possible protests, which only furthered Tancredo's opinion of Miami as both third world and intolerant.

REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: There is something about -- there is something third worldish about you know, politicians being threatened with bombs and when -- and certainly in Havana, there are -- the situation is that you cannot say certain things, that you are prevented from talking about things that are -- that the ruling clique there in the city feels as unacceptable.

ZARRELLA: Tancredo says Miami is an example of a city, but not the only one where there's no pressure to assimilate into this country.

TANCREDO: We end up balkanized. We end up a sort of cultural linguistic political Tower of Babel and I think to a large extent, Miami is -- and Miami-Dade reflect that.

ZARRELLA: Miami with its multiethnic cultures is not to Tom Tancredo any indication of a melting pot community, but rather, he says a salad where the flavors don't mix. Whether a salad or a melting pot, Tancredo is not likely to get many dinner invitations in Miami.

John Zarrella, CNN, Miami.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And still to come right here in THE SITUATION ROOM he's often called America's pastor. I'll ask Rick Warren, author of "The Purpose Driven Life", how he's able to work with Barack Obama and Sam Brownback, politicians with very different views on abortion and other hot button issues.

Stay with us. Lots more coming up. You're THE SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Carol Costello joining us from right here in Washington with a closer look at some other important stories making news. Hi, Carol.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Wolf. Hello to all of you. Former Wisconsin governor and former Bush Cabinet Secretary Tommy Thompson may be joining the list of those running for the White House. An aide says Thompson has filed papers to set up a presidential exploratory committee. Thompson was Wisconsin's governor for 14 years before serving as Secretary of Health and Human Services under the current President Bush.

Search and rescue teams expect weather to clear on Mount Hood in the coming hours. They are preparing for what they're calling a big push to find those three missing climbers. High winds and blizzard conditions slowed the search again today, but there is one piece of good news regarding the possible fate of the three men. A little while ago authorities report finding a note in which the climbers detailed the supplies they had with them when they started their climbing days ago -- items like food and fuel, a shovel and ropes. Well that could be helping them weather the storms.

A North Carolina judge is ordering a paternity test on the child of a woman who's accusing three Duke University lacrosse players of raping her. The woman is reportedly being treated at a local hospital and is close to giving birth. Both the defense and the prosecution say they don't expect the testing to show that any one of the accused is the father of the child. We'll keep you posted. Wolf?

BLITZER: Thanks very much Carol for that.

And just ahead, my interview with Pastor Rick Warren, the author of the best seller "The Purpose Driven Life". He's teaming up with Senator Barack Obama despite some criticism from a few evangelicals. I'll ask him about the controversy and whether he thinks Senator Obama has what it takes to be president.

And public, private disconnect, President Bush weighing in on the vice president's daughter raising a baby with her longtime partner.

Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: To viewers, you're in THE SITUATION ROOM where new pictures and information are arriving all the time. Happening now, Florida Governor Jeb Bush suspending all executions in his state after a botched one this week, in which a convicted killer took 34 minutes to die by lethal injection. Officials say the needles were improperly inserted through his veins and a second dose had to be administered. Officials say they won't know until the final autopsy is conducted whether the condemned man suffered.

In the Pacific Northwest, severe and deadly weather leaving more than one million homes and businesses without power. Hurricane-force winds battered the coast of Washington State and Oregon. There's debris from fallen trees all across the region. At least four deaths are blamed on the storm.

And new information tonight on the condition of ailing Senator Tim Johnson. A spokeswoman saying the South Dakota Democrat is moving in the right direction and doctors are encouraged as he recovers from a brain hemorrhage and surgery, but she cautions, the spokeswoman it's going to take time. Johnson is listed in critical but stable condition right now.

I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

Twenty-six years after he first founded a small church in California, Rick Warren is now one of the country's top evangelical leaders. He's also the author of a worldwide best seller "The Purpose Driven Life." My interview with him coming up in a moment or so. But first, let's go to CNN's Mary Snow for more on the man known as America's pastor -- Mary.

SNOW: Wolf, Rick Warren's message is from "The Purpose Driven Life" are part of his ministry teachings around the globe. Some say Warren's influence is not only growing, but changing the relationship between evangelicals and the right.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW (voice over): Pastor Rick Warren's latest mission brought him to Washington for the White House summit on malaria. Wiping out pandemic diseases has become one of the cornerstones of the lessons he preaches. Lessons that have made him one of the most influential pastors in America.

E.J. DIONNE, THE BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: I think what you're seeing with Rick Warren is almost a new version, a 2006 version, of Billy Graham.

SNOW: But unlike Graham, who's always seen in suits, Warren is often dressed in Hawaiian shirts. Most people know him as the author of the best-selling book "The Purpose-Driven Life." It sold some 20 million copies worldwide.

He's taken his message around the globe, even traveling to controversial countries like Syria. This past summer he tried unsuccessfully to enter North Korea.

PASTOR RICK WARREN, AUTHOR, "THE PURPOSE-DRIVEN LIFE": I'm always happy to be a back channel for peace.

SNOW: But there was anything but peace earlier this month when Pastor Warren invited Illinois Democratic senator Barack Obama to his California mega-church to address the AIDS crisis.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), ILLINOIS: We must do what we can to prevent...

SNOW: Some conservatives and ministers were outraged since they adamantly oppose Obama's support of abortion rights and embryonic stem cell research. Warren himself is conservative and opposes them, too, but he refused to bow to pressure and invited Obama on the pulpit, along with Republican senator Sam Brownback.

WARREN: You've seen the face of compassionate conservatism and the face of compassionate liberalism. And what we have in common is compassion.

SNOW: At least one political observer said the event marked a turn in American politics, predicting that conservative evangelicals and Republicans won't always see eye to eye as they have in recent years.

DIONNE: I suspect most will continue to vote Republican. But Republican politics won't be the most important thing to them anymore. It will be much more about what they see their Christian mission as demanding, and that will include some issues that aren't traditionally associated with the right.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: Some of those issues include poverty, AIDS in African and concern about the environment, Wolf.

BLITZER: Mary Snow, with some good background. Mary thank you very much.

Pastor rick Warren calls issues like disease, poverty and spiritual emptiness global goliaths. So, does he have a plan to conquer them?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And joinin us now, the author of the best-selling book "The Purpose Driven Life" Pastor Rick Warren. Pastor Rick Warren -- Pastor I'll call you, thanks very much for coming in.

RICK WARREN, PASTOR: Good to be here.

BLITZER: Good time of the year to have a serious discussion on a lot of the issues that are in the forefront for you. You caused a bit of a stir recently by inviting Barack Obama to your church to speak out on some of the sensitive issues of the day. You were criticized by some evangelical because he supports abortion rights, gay rights. What's your response to that?

WARREN: Well, you know, if you can only work with people you agree with 100 percent, you've ruled out the entire world, because I can't even get my wife to agree with me all the time. So you're going to have to work with people who have differences from you. And we had 60 speakers at this conference on AIDS, and Barack Obama was there, but so was Sam Brownback, Bill Frist, first lady Laura Bush, Bill Gates, Bono. There was a lot of people.

BLITZER: What did you think of Barack Obama?

WARREN: He's an amazing man. I think...

BLITZER: Do you think he's got it? In other words, he's got that potential like so many other presidential prospects, to be the president of the United States?

WARREN: I think he does.

BLITZER: Because?

WARREN: I think he has good character. I think both Sam Brownback and Barack Obama -- the reason I invited them both, first, they'll tell you the truth. They're not just going to beat around the bush. They'll tell you what they believe. And I appreciate that. Second, they're men of civility. And I'm so tired of the rudeness we've got in our society where people are just mean to each other. We need to return to civility, which says, I treat you with respect even if I violently disagree with you. That we've lost the "civil" in civilization.

BLITZER: Are the American people ready for an African-American president?

WARREN: Oh, I think so.

BLITZER: Your congregants, what are you hearing?

WARREN: Well, I think that America's ready for leadership any time. I think Sam Brownback, who was there, I think Barack Obama, I think there's a lot of people in the field who are good leaders who could easily lead America with -- because they're clear.

BLITZER: Let me read to you what David Van Biema, writer for "TIME" magazine wrote.

"The invitation works perfectly for Obama. Through his autobiography 'The Audacity of Hope' and his public statements, the senator had already positioned himself as one of the rare potential Democratic presidential candidates who can truly talk the Christian talk."

Can he?

WARREN: Talking the Christian talk is not nearly as important as being a person of character. And I think that in the -- in this next election people are tired of partisanship.

I think whoever is going to get elected is going to be somebody who has the ability to draw people from different sides, even people who disagree with you, and say, let's work on the greater good. Let's work on the common good of our society rather than narrow casting, rather than saying I'm appealing to simply a base. I think base politics is out of date.

BLITZER: Here's what one of your critics who didn't like the fact you invited him because of his support for abortion said this, Wiley Drake, second vice president, Southern Baptist Convention.

"You can't work together with people totally opposed to what you are. This kind of conference is just going to lead people astray."

WARREN: Well, I disagree.

BLITZER: So you're ready to reach out and work with people who have different...

WARREN: We will work with anybody...

BLITZER: ... even on a sensitive issue like that? WARREN: There's a difference, Wolf, between being an ally and being a co-belligerent. Francis Schaffer was a great writer who talked about this. And so did Wilberforce, by the way.

In other words, for instance, I'm a co-belligerent with the feminist movement when they're opposing pornography. I don't agree with everything in the feminist agenda, but I happen to agree with them on that, and I would work with them on that particular issue.

BLITZER: Let's talk about some of the other issues that you've really made a name for yourself...

WARREN: Sure.

BLITZER: ...including North Korea.

WARREN: Yes.

BLITZER: You're ready to reach out to Kim Jong-il and North Korea to do what?

WARREN: Well, to preach the gospel. I'm a pastor, not a politician. And I report to a higher authority, where Jesus said, "Go into all the world, to every nation."

Does that involve Syria? Yes. Does that involve North Korea? Yes. Does it involve Iran?

I'll go anywhere as long as I'm not muzzled. Now, if they put restrictions on what I say, that's a different issue. But I have a basic message that says you were made by God and for God, and until you understand that, life isn't going to make sense.

And if I get the opportunity to share that, then I don't go -- I don't ever go into these places as a politician. I don't go in as a diplomat. I don't go in as trying to take a job that's not my job. But if I get an opportunity to go in and bring hope, encouragement, and the message of the good news, I'm going to do it.

BLITZER: And another major issue for you is dealing with the crisis of AIDS in Africa. You've gone there.

WARREN: Right.

BLITZER: You encourage people to go there.

Why did you decide that this was going to be a seminal issue for you?

WARREN: Well, you know, Wolf, AIDS is no longer a sexy issue. It used to be on everybody's mind in the early '80s. And I think a couple of things have happened.

Hollywood has moved on from it. They're now looking into adopting kids and stuff like that.

The reason, though, is that AIDS is worse than it was 20 years ago. In America, it's become a chronic disease.

If you've got the money, you've got $10,000, $15,000 a year, you can live a pretty reasonable life with the antiretrovirals. What most people don't realize is that around the world it's exploding at an exponential rate.

Within a matter of 10, 15 years, there will be 100 million people who have AIDS or who have had AIDS. And it's still a death sentence.

You're going to die from it. And there is no cure. And so while the church is late coming to the table -- and I really think we have to repent over that. I think we have to say, we were wrong, we were flat-out wrong. And I've said that publicly. But we're in it for the long haul, and it is a -- it is the greatest health pandemic in the world right now.

BLITZER: You've been described as the next Billy Graham.

WARREN: Nobody can replace Billy Graham.

BLITZER: But what are you -- let's look down the road. America's pastor, is that the kind of responsibility you would like to have one day?

WARREN: I never imagined I'd be sitting here talking to you, so I don't predict the future. I'm not a prophet. I'm a local pastor of a church that happened to grow quite large, and I've spent most of my ministry just helping other pastors.

I've trained about 400,000 pastors in 163 countries. And so we kind of stayed under the radar for a long time. I intentionally said we're never going to put our services on television like a weekly show because I didn't want to be a celebrity.

BLITZER: Well, your book and your comments have certainly made you a celebrity.

WARREN: Kind of blew my cover. The book blew the cover.

BLITZER: You're out there. And we want to thank you for coming in to THE SITUATION ROOM.

WARREN: Thank you.

BLITZER: Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

WARREN: Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you.

BLITZER: Thank you.

WARREN: Thank you.

(END VIDETAPE)

BLITZER: And still ahead tonight, supporting Mary Cheney. She's pregnant and planning to raise the child with her girlfriend. Now President Bush is weighing in on the vice president's daughter. We'll tell what you the president is now saying. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: There was plenty of pageantry today at the farewell tribute to Donald Rumsfeld. But casting a shadow, the war that forced him from his Pentagon post. The war itself is certain to provide the more lasting images.

Over time, America's military commitments led to some memorable images, pictures seared in to our national psyche. So what will be the iconic image from the war in Iraq?

Our special correspondent Frank Sesno has thoughts.

FRANK SESNO, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: It's decision time for the president and it really boils down to this -- stay or leave, commit or cut your losses.

And, Wolf, we've been down this road before and sometimes it's not a pretty picture.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SESNO (voice-over): They are the pictures that say so much. In Vietnam, choppers on the rooftops, desperation on the ground, as America called it quits.

For years, a president had put America's power and prestige on the line.

LYNDON JOHNSON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And we just cannot now dishonor our word or abandon our commitment.

SESNO: By the time the choppers pulled up and out of Saigon, America was exhausted and divided. The damage lasted for decades.

In the early days of the Cold War, a Camelot president learned about American limitations much closer to home. A CIA-inspired invasion of Cuban exiles was supposed to topple Fidel Castro. The rebels counted on American air support. It didn't come and Castro crushed the uprising, the American president left to pick up the pieces.

JOHN F. KENNEDY, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Cuba must not be abandoned to the Communists. And we do not intend to abandon it either.

SESNO: Bay of Pigs still means loss and betrayal.

In Iraq, too, America has been on the line before, after Gulf War one, Bush One encouraged uprisings against Saddam. The Shiites in the south, the marsh Arabs complied. They, too, wanted American help that didn't come. Saddam destroyed whole villages, drained the marshes, killed tens of thousands.

And now another president has to deal with the consequences of commitment. With no good choices and dwindling political support -- only 21 percent approve of his handling of Iraq -- America, it seems, wants out.

But it's worth considering the scenario before it happens, helicopters evacuating the green zone this time, as Iraq descends into chaos and open civil war. Iraqis who helped and hope left behind to navigate the wreckage.

Is this the next picture we'll never forget?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SESNO: Wolf, it's so much more than about presidential popularity polls and how the Republicans and Democrats are going to do. You heard Kennedy say it. You heard Johnson say it. We've made a commitment, our word, the superpower word matters for something. And that's really what's confronting George W. Bush and the United States of America right now. What it does in Iraq is going to reverberate down for decades to come.

BLITZER: And these images can be so powerful, so searing, as you point out, and certainly as he, in these last two years, thinks about his legacy, this has to be very much on his mind.

SESNO: Very much on his mind, because it really does matter about the projection of American power. And if America says something, is it there to carry it through?

Rumsfeld himself has said Americans don't like long wars. They're not popular. True enough. But what happens when you get in one and it turns out that to be long and unpopular? Then what do you do?

BLITZER: Well, we'll see.

Thanks very much.

Distinctions abound for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, the only plan to hold the job twice -- once the youngest and now the oldest. Tributes to him from the highest levels pouring out today at that ceremony marking his departure under the shadow, though, of a very troubled war in Iraq. And Rumsfeld himself could find himself in line for one more distinction.

Here's CNN's Soledad O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD RUMSFELD, OUTGOING SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Hello, folks.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A former U.S. secretary of defense makes his mark, Donald Rumsfeld.

RUMSFELD: We need to be...

O'BRIEN: The engineer of the policies that fueled the war in Iraq steps aside, and earns a place as a candidate for "Time" magazine's person of the year.

MICHAEL ELLIOT, "TIME" INTERNATIONAL EDITOR: These are operational decisions that we've made in fighting the war in Iraq. There are choices in terms of the number of forces that we've had, in terms of how to respond, the looting of Baghdad in terms of how to fight the insurgency that are properly put at the feet of the secretary of defense.

RUMSFELD: What's being undertaken here is difficult.

It is not well-known. It was not well-understood.

ELLIOT: The choices and decisions he's made have been extraordinary significant, not just for tens of thousands Americans serving in the armed forces and their families, but for people all around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Our sister publication "Time" magazine will reveal this year's person of the year right here on CNN, tomorrow night, Saturday night, 8:00 p.m. Eastern. That's a special you'll want to see.

Up ahead, is President Bush changing his tune about same-sex families? We're going to tell what you he's saying about the news that the vice president's daughter, Mary Cheney, is expecting a baby with her female partner.

And all eyes are on Britain's Prince William as he makes his mark in a military rite of passage. Our Jeanne Moos gives us her take. Stay with us. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The song may be the same, but President Bush is singing a slightly different tune on the issue of gay parents with the news that the vice president's lesbian daughter Mary Cheney is expecting a baby with her partner. CNN's Carol Costello joining us once again with some details on what the president is now saying -- Carol.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, his words will not make evangelical Christians dance in the streets, especially those who think President Bush isn't doing enough to ban gay marriage.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO (voice-over): What a difference a baby makes. President George Bush is against gay adoption, against gay marriage, telling "The New York Times" last year, "I believe children can receive love from gay couples, but the ideal is -- and studies have shown that the ideal is where a child is raised in a married family with a man and a woman."

Now hear this -- this is President Bush in the current issue of "People" magazine congratulating the VP's lesbian daughter on her pregnancy. He says, "Mary Cheney is going to make a fine mom and she is going to love this child a lot."

There's just something about Mary. The confounding twist in Bush's political agenda. She is his vice president's daughter, in a loving, long-term relationship with partner Heather Poe, and was a top adviser on the Bush/Cheney campaign. Yet remember back in 2004 when Mr. Bush was asked if being gay was a choice? He said...

BUSH: I just don't know. I do know that we have a choice to make in America, and that is to treat people with tolerance and respect and dignity. But as we respect someone's rights and as we profess tolerance, we shouldn't change or have to change our basic views on the sanctity of marriage. I believe in the sanctity of marriage.

COSTELLO: It was after those comments that John Kerry brought up the elephant in the room -- Mary Cheney.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: We're all God's children, Bob, and I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was. She's being who she was born as.

COSTELLO: Lynne Cheney fired back.

LYNNE CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT'S WIFE: This is not a good man. What a cheap and tawdry political trick.

COSTELLO: Many conservatives have long been imploring Bush to keep supporting tradition marriage despite Mary Cheney.

ROBERT KNIGHT, DIRECTOR, CULTURE AND FAMILY INST.: If we distort the law because some people have made decisions in their lives that don't comport with that, then that will not be good for society.

COSTELLO: And on policy, the president remained firm again.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does he still believe that's the idea?

TONY SNOW, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: He does, but he also believes that every human life is sacred and every child who comes into this world deserves love, and he believes that Mary Cheney's child will in fact have loving parents.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: Mary Cheney and her partner are expecting their baby in late spring. Cheney's parents say they are delighted at the prospect of another grandchild -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Carol, thanks for that. Carol Costello reporting.

And still ahead, a royal family affair for an officer and a prince. But what will -- but will he actually get the girl? CNN's Jeanne Moos shows us William's graduation. That's coming up right here in THE SITUATION ROOM. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The newest officer in the British military is also the young man who will one day be its commander in chief. That would be Prince William. CNN's Jeanne Moos shows us his graduation day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A prince and now an officer. You know those graduations where everyone throws their cap into the air? This was not one of those.

This was full of pomp and unusual circumstances. The soldier prince who might some day be king of England was being eyed by the lady in red, who everyone else was eying. Will Prince William propose to Kate Middleton? Who knows? But it was the first time she's been William's guest at a high-profile public event attended by the queen.

As she reviewed the graduates, the queen paused and said a word or two to William. For the British, the prince is the equivalent of America's JFK Jr., or was it the other way around?

Just a few days earlier, the two British princes were announcing a concert in their mother's honor, joshing about how the public could call William to get tickets.

PRINCE HARRY: Or ring his mobile, 7...

PRINCE WILLIAM: Harry, shut up.

MOOS: Now William and his brother have completed 10 months of officer training at the prestigious Sandhurst Academy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would imagine that all the female cadets must have been quite excited at the thought that Prince William was here as a cadet?

CAPT. EMILY HUGHES, 23RD PLATOON COMMANDER: I'm sorry, I don't know how to answer.

MOOS: But maybe no one can turn his head. He's been dating Kate Middleton for four years. She stayed poised as cameras recorded her every move, even when she noticed something sticking to the elbow of one of William's pals. He flicked it off.

ITV hired a lip read, who quoted her saying about her prince...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love the uniform. It's so sexy.

MOOS: All those sexy uniforms ended the ceremony by marching up the steps and into the historic old college. And look who else mounted the steps. It's an 80-year-old tradition. Who says the British don't horse around, even at Prince Charming's graduation.

Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And to our Jewish viewers, happy Hanukkah. Let's got to "PAULA ZAHN NOW."

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