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The Situation Room
Freddie Gray Trial; Will Biden Run?; Illinois Manhunt; Donald Trump vs. Jeb Bush; Kerry Predicts Ground Force in ISIS War; CNN Special Report: Murder on Cape Cod. Aired 18-19:00p ET
Aired September 02, 2015 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:05]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Jeb jabs back with a quiz game mocking Trump -- the gloves off in the Republican presidential race. Can either candidate score a knockout?
Baltimore on edge. Tonight, concerns that protests may heat up as a judge decides whether to throw out charges against six police officers or remove the prosecutor who brought charges. We have new details on the case against the officers accused in the death of Freddie Gray.
And the unseen knife? A stunning piece of video of police shooting a man after he puts his hands up has outraged the nation, but, tonight, new details about a second video showing a different angle. Police say it reveals an important clue and they say exposes a rush to judgment.
We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world. Wolf Blitzer is off. I am Brianna Keilar. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Tonight, more than 400 local, state and federal officers are hunting for three suspected cop killers. The manhunt has been under way for more than a day now after an officer north of Chicago radioed he was chasing three suspicious men on foot. The officer's body was discovered later. Police admit the suspects may have left the town and even the state.
Investigators are concentrating on a 17-minute timeline and looking through surveillance video from the area. Our correspondents and experts have been working their sources on the story all day, and all of the other developing news that we are following.
We want to begin now with CNN national correspondent Ryan Young. He is in Fox Lake, Illinois.
Give us the latest, Ryan.
RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We're outside the police department, and that 17-minute timeline will be important as they start analyzing that video that they're going through, the surveillance video we talked to several store owners about just yesterday. But you can see the outpouring from the community here, the
pictures they have come forward with, several people taking this to heart.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
YOUNG (voice-over): Tonight, three suspected cop killers are loose after Lieutenant Joe Gliniewicz radioed into dispatch Tuesday.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you need a second unit?
LT. JOE GLINIEWICZ, FOX LAKE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Negative at this time.
YOUNG: Minutes later, one of the suspects flees the scene as Lieutenant Gliniewicz calls for backup.
GLINIEWICZ: He took off toward the swamp.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you need a second unit?
YOUNG: The officer did not answer repeated status check calls from dispatch.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fox Lake Unit 6740, checking your status. Fox Lake unit on Honing, checking status on 6740.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't have him right now. We're looking for him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Try him on his cell phone, please.
YOUNG: A second officer arriving on scene found Lieutenant Gliniewicz wounded.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Officer down.
YOUNG: As officers raced to the scene hoping to find those responsible.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All Lake County units responding to officer down, Fox Lake. Subject to be considered armed and dangerous.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Male white and a male black fled from scene, taking the officer's sidearm and pepper spray. Shots were fired. Unknown direction of travel.
YOUNG: The small town of Fox Lake is saddened and stunned to learn about the death of a man some called G.I. Joe.
GEORGE FILENKO, COMMANDER, LAKE COUNTY MAJOR CRIME TASK FORCE: He was an outstanding police officer, an outstanding community member, and a father, we have to remember, of four children.
YOUNG: The search for three people suspected of killing a more- than-30-year veteran police officer is widening beyond the two-mile perimeter, with now more than 100 federal, state, and local investigators saturating the area surrounding Fox Lake.
FILENKO: Currently, we're utilizing the FBI, ATF, and United States Marshals Office, as well as the sheriff's office, alongside our investigators.
YOUNG: Police combing through clues, including potential fingerprints or DNA left at the crime scene and analyzing all their surveillance footage in the area.
FILENKO: We're not discounting anything. We're looking at every aspect and angle of this.
YOUNG: With only a vague description of the suspects, police are interesting for the public's help.
FILENKO: If you suspect anything, if you see anything out of character, if you simply have a feeling that something is wrong, call the Fox Lake Police Department immediately.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
YOUNG: They're really asking for those phone calls. If you look behind me, see all these pictures, there will be a candlelight vigil within the next hour, and that's something we will be heading to as well as the community steps forward to remember someone they called G.I. Joe.
KEILAR: Ryan Young for us there in Fox Lake. Thank you so much.
For more on this developing story, I want to bring in Emily Coleman, and she's a reporter for "The Northwest Herald" there in northern Illinois.
Emily, thanks for being with us.
Give us a sense of things as you see them, because it seems like officials really don't have a whole lot of information to work off as they continue to hunt suspects. Is that your read?
EMILY COLEMAN, "THE NORTHWEST HERALD": Yes, it definitely seems like there's a lot of unknowns at this point. I guess the big question is what are they keeping close to their own vest?
I mean, there are plenty of circumstances in investigations in which they don't tell reporters things because they don't want that getting out any further, but, at this point, yes, the descriptions that we have gotten, it doesn't seem like they're working off of a whole lot.
[18:05:05]
KEILAR: They're looking for tips, though, right? They're imploring people...
COLEMAN: Yes. KEILAR: ... to let them know if they see someone acting
suspiciously or certainly if one of the men were to tell someone about the incident.
COLEMAN: That's correct. And they're asking people basically, one of the detectives at Lake County Sheriff's Office yesterday said that no tip is too small.
KEILAR: OK. They want people just to be really proactive and send those in. We're also hearing reports, Emily, local reports there that Lieutenant Gliniewicz's gun, we know he had been stripped of it, we heard that from sources, but we also heard these reports that the gun was actually found at the shooting scene. Do you have any reporting on that? Can you help us figure that out?
COLEMAN: Nothing has been confirmed on that.
KEILAR: OK. So nothing has been confirmed. You don't have sources that are saying that might be the case?
COLEMAN: No, not at this point, certainly nothing is being confirmed.
KEILAR: OK. So do you get a sense of any confidence from local officials there that they're going to get a break in this?
COLEMAN: I think at this point they're really hoping that something comes through, either through surveillance or through residents seeing something that seems wrong.
Or there are plenty of cases that break because the offenders say something to somebody else. And then that person comes forward.
KEILAR: Sure. Emily, we were just looking at some live aerial pictures of looks like almost like a concert setup by the lake. I know that we heard from officials there, from one official or representative that there's going to be a vigil tonight. Can you tell us about that, what the community has planned?
COLEMAN: Yes, there's a candlelight vigil planned at Lake Front Park, which is Fox Lake's main park. Most of their celebratory events happen there. Their Fourth of July happens there. It is actually kind of a marked difference than what you normally see at the park. It is usually a place where Fox Lake residents go to have fun and to celebrate their community.
KEILAR: Yes. It certainly is a marked difference. Emily Coleman, you are the Crystal Lake reporter for "Northwest Herald." We really appreciate you talking with us.
COLEMAN: Yes. Thank you so much for your time.
KEILAR: The killing of the Illinois officer, it's really the latest in a troubling wave of police deaths across the country.
CNN's Brian Todd has been looking into this. What have you found, Brian?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, we have some disturbing new information on the targeting of police officers across the U.S.
According to law enforcement advocates, seven officers have been shot in the line of duty just in the past month. A total of 24 officers have shot and killed in the line of duty so far this year. That is less than at the same time last year. But according to the Fraternal Order of Police, ambush attack on police where assailants try to kill officers have risen dramatically over the past few years.
Law enforcement advocates say the recent string of excessive force cases, like Eric Garner's death in New York last year, like Walter Scott's killing in South Carolina this year, that those incidents have contributed toward the anger toward police. But police unions and other advocates say saturated the media coverage has also played a role in this and marches like last weekend in Minnesota where members of the group Black Lives Matter chanted things like pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon, they have also played a role in this anger.
One leader of Black Lives Matter countered by saying police advocates are politicizing the issue and the majority of chants by their group and others have been about making police accountable. Brianna, but the debate over what's causing these attacks on police is very, very hot now.
KEILAR: But, Brian, you found some instances, right, that reflect perhaps a change in police behavior as a result of all this.
TODD: That's right. You can see more of this probably in the weeks and months to come, Brianna. Last month, a police detective in Birmingham, Alabama, said he hesitated to use more force at a traffic stop because he didn't want to be scrutinized in the media like so many officers have been.
Possibly as a result of that mind-set, the suspect in that case bowled his way out of the car, grabbed the officer's gun, and pistol- whipped him almost to death with it. The officer, he is seen conscious here, but he was unconscious for part of that incident. Also late last month, Louisiana State Trooper Steven Vincent, he was shot in the head and taunted after he stopped to help a stranded motorist.
Law enforcement advocates say as a result of incidents like these, police are likely going to change their deployment tactics. This is Trooper Vincent, a photo of him. They say they will move in teams of two to three people, the police officers sometimes, in these incidents, and sometimes responses to crime scenes are going to be slower because a single officer might wait until a second car gets there.
Again, with police officers seemingly being targeted these days, Brianna, you're going to expect a change in behavior of cops on the street. Whether that leads to another spike in crime, we have to see about that.
[18:10:09]
KEILAR: Brian Todd, thank you so much.
I want to bring in now our experts so we can dig deeper into the Illinois investigation.
I am joined now by former FBI Assistant Director Tom Fuentes and also criminal defense attorney Joey Jackson.
Tom, we have the search area, it was pretty small before. Police say they thoroughly searched it. As this expands, how much more difficult is the search going to be?
TOM FUENTES, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, this is difficult as it can be, because you have no adequate description of three individuals. They have had enough time now, more than 30 hours. They could have driven to Mexico, driven to Canada, flown to Europe. Nobody is looking for them by name.
Nobody is scrutinizing passports at airports. There's no provisional arrest warrants issued, there's no Interpol red notes issued. We don't know who they are, we don't know what they look like, we don't know what they were wearing, and we don't know how they left the scene of the crime. Too many questions to try to hope for a quick resolution in this case.
KEILAR: The autopsy, Joey, of the police officer, Lieutenant Gliniewicz, it has been completed. What do you think that could reveal?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Sure.
What ends up happening, Brianna, is autopsies go to the issue of the cause and manner of death and ultimately when these people who did this are held accountable and brought to justice, a prosecutor is going to use that in the case to demonstrate what exactly happened to the officer. How many times were they shot? Did they in fact get into any type of scuffle with them? Are there any defensive wounds?
All types of information are revealing in terms of what the manner of death is and was it only a gunshot, was there other contributing factors, was there blunt-force trauma? It is difficult in a prosecution of a case when you introduce this, because of course the victim's families are there, and of course the defense attorney who has to cross-examine takes no pleasure in that either.
But autopsy reports are very revealing in terms of the cause of death and how actually it happened, the manner in which it happened.
KEILAR: Tom, how key are these early hours for identifying the men? We're here more than 30 hours after the killing of this police officer. Does it get more difficult or doesn't it really matter as much that the identity isn't known early on? FUENTES: Well, often in fugitive cases, if you don't apprehend
the fugitives very quickly within the first couple of hours, and it has to go into the longer fugitive investigation, it does become more difficult and it can take a long time.
I would like to add to what Joey was saying. The autopsy and forensic work on the officer's body would reveal are there other persons' DNA on him, are hair follicles and material from other persons present on the body, was the gunshot that he received from a different gun? If it was from his gun, can they rule out he didn't fire it? There's no gunshot, gunpowder residue due on him.
And also the gun that was used to shoot him, if it was in close proximity, the muzzle blast and the residue coming out the front off the barrel would be on his body and on his uniform. If the individuals were farther away from him, that would be determined also.
KEILAR: All right, Tom, Joey, thank you so much.
I do want to let our viewers know they're looking at, live pictures of a vigil that will happen there in Fox Lake tonight.
Let's talk politics ahead. We're seeing some new developments tonight in both parties' presidential races, a new trip by Vice President Joe Biden. It is fueling the guessing game about whether he is perhaps closer to say he is running for the Democratic nomination. Then on the Republican side, man, is it getting rough. Stand by for the latest broadsides between Donald Trump and Jeb Bush.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:18:33]
KEILAR: Some important new developments tonight in both the Republican and Democratic races for the presidential nomination.
Let's start with the Democrats, where a trip by Vice President Joe Biden is really fueling the guessing game about his 2016 plans.
CNN senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny is following the vice president in Florida.
Hi, Jeff.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Brianna.
Vice President Biden set off on a two-day trip to Miami and he was followed by a wave of speculation about he's going to do in his future. He seemed to relish at all this presidential-sized attention.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZELENY (voice-over): Stepping of his Marine helicopter and climbing aboard Air Force Two, Joe Biden hit the road today, heading to Miami with all the trappings of office. The vice presidential tease intensifies. He's inching closer to
deciding if he will dive into the 2016 presidential race. At Miami- Dade College today, Biden was all business.
JOSEPH BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: With your permission, may I take my coat off? My wife has two expressions she uses all the time. The first one is the best-kept secret in America are community colleges.
ZELENY: Bus his schedule is fueling more speculation. He's stepping up his appearances, as he weighs whether to challenge Hillary Clinton.
BIDEN: Look at the press you have attracted. Their interest in community colleges impress my greatly. And I hope that's what they are going to write about.
[18:20:02]
ZELENY: He's stepping out of the shadow of the vice presidency and into the spotlight, set to appear next week for the debut of "The Late Show With Stephen Colbert."
Some Democrats are urging Biden to jump into the race after a rough summer for Clinton and the ongoing controversy over her State Department e-mails. A new "Washington Post"/ABC News poll today shows Clinton with a 53 percent unfavorable rating. The vice president's is only slightly better with 46 percent viewing him in a negative light, but among Democrats, a different picture. Clinton is seen favorably by 80 percent, Biden only 70 percent.
The Clinton campaign is watching Biden's decision closely.
HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is a difficult decision for him to make, and as I said before, I want him to have the space and time to do it.
ZELENY: Weighing heavy on Biden is the death three months ago of his olden son, Beau. He spoke movingly of that too friends and supporters last weekend in Delaware.
BIDEN: If there's anything I can ever do beyond my official capacity, I'm still here. I'm still Joe. I haven't gone away.
ZELENY: Today, Biden put his signature on lab coats of the students he met. He left a good impression, even if he didn't drop any hints about his future.
LILLIAM GUERRREO, STUDENT: It would be nice to see him run for president. He has a lot to say and a lot to contribute to the United States.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZELENY: Now, he will be attending a fund-raiser for Senate Democrats tonight here in Miami. It also offers a key opportunity for him to take the temperature of some donors in one of the most important battleground states in the country.
But, Brianna, one thing the vice president said caught my attention today. He said people who aren't willing to risk failing never succeed. We're told we will have his decision, his answer, by October 1. He is still deciding which way to go -- Brianna.
KEILAR: That's an interesting hint perhaps.
Jeff Zeleny with the vice president in Florida, thank you.
Now for the Republicans, because the slugfest between Jeb Bush and Donald Trump is getting even nastier today, if you can imagine that.
CNN chief political correspondent Dana Bash has all of the details.
DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And even more unusual, if you can imagine that.
And this turn happened late this afternoon, when the Republican National Committee sent this out. This is a pledge, not something you normally see every day by a national committee, sending it to the candidates for president in its own party, asking them to promise to be a Republican, not run as an independent.
It is something that was clearly aimed at Donald Trump, who has refused to explicitly make such promises, that as Jeb Bush's campaign pound Trump as a Democrat in disguise.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is not a guy who is a conservative.
BASH (voice-over): Jeb Bush's stepped-up strategy to go hard after Donald Trump turned tongue in cheek, a quiz released on social media, asking questions aimed at what Bush aides say underscores the contrast between Trump and Bush, like, would you rather support a candidate who said they were "very pro-choice or was a strongly pro- life governor and defunded Planned Parenthood"?
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Go in and vote. Go in and vote.
BASH: And a rare personal jab from Jeb at Trump, known to be exceedingly fearful of germs. "Would you rather support a candidate who strives to shake every hand everywhere, or is a germaphobe when it comes to shaking hands?"
TRUMP: He's a very low-energy kind of guy. And he had to do something.
BASH: Trump, who calls himself a counterpuncher, did just that.
TRUMP: He's getting all of his money from people that are lobbyists and, you know, tough group of people. I know all of them, and they want him to do something, and he should do something, because he's got to fight back. He's way down in the polls.
BASH: All this as a new ABC News/"The Washington Post" poll shows both men suffering in the popularity department; 59 percent, nearly six in 10, have an unfavorable view of Trump. And Jeb Bush isn't doing much better with 55 percent.
Broken down by ethnic groups, despite often saying this:
TRUMP: I will win the Hispanic vote, and I think I will win it very easily.
BASH: Trump, who made waves from day one with comments about Mexican illegal immigrants, has a big problem with Hispanic voters. A whopping 82 percent have an unfavorable view of them. Jeb Bush speaks fluent Spanish, and even used it to attack Trump this week. His favorability rating is some 30 points higher than Trump among Hispanic, who are about equally divided about Bush.
Yet it is Trump's popularity with conservative primary voters his opponents are most focused on chipping away at now, and it's not only Jeb Bush.
SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald Trump is really a fake conservative.
BASH: Rand Paul told CNN, over time and with effort, GOP voters will see Trump as a phony.
PAUL: Once people find out his positions, I think they are going to be sort of fleeing with their hair on fire. They're going to say, oh, my goodness, he is not really what he said he was, he's not really a conservative.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[18:25:03]
BASH: Again, the Republican National Committee sent this pledge to GOP candidates, asking them to promise to stay a Republican.
And, Brianna, a Trump spokeswoman tells me that they have no comment on whether he even got it, never mind whether he is going to sign it. He did say this morning on ABC that given the choice between Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush, he would pick the Republican.
KEILAR: OK. Maybe it went to -- the pledge could have gone to his junk box, or something. You never know, right?
Dana will stay with us, as we bring in Rebecca Berg of RealClearPolitics and Jamelle Bouie of Slate and CNN chief political analyst Gloria Borger.
You hear the latest jab, Gloria, by Donald Trump.
(CROSSTALK)
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: We're keeping track.
KEILAR: I know. Right? Today, it's always -- it just keeps on giving.
He says that Jeb Bush should set an example by speaking English while he is in the U.S. Is there any point where Donald Trump will have gone too far?
BORGER: We haven't seen it so far, right? We keep saying is this far enough? Is this far enough? You know, we haven't seen it. Nothing seems to stick to him.
I think Trump knows exactly what he's doing in this. He knows where his support is; 82 percent of Hispanics view him unfavorably. Can we just say he is not likely to get the Hispanic vote, right? But -- so what he is going for is the white conservative base of the party, which likes him and doesn't like Jeb. With this kind of a comment, he is just strengthening his base of support.
KEILAR: What do you think, Rebecca, though? What does it mean for the entire Republican Party? I covered Hillary Clinton, and one of the things she's said is she tries to lump all Republicans in with Donald Trump, and she says Republicans are on a spectrum of hostility toward immigrants.
Does this sort of bleed over in a negative way with Hispanic voters for all Republicans?
REBECCA BERG, REALCLEARPOLITICS: Absolutely.
What Trump's comments like this, and when other Republicans make comments like this, it gives Democrats like Hillary Clinton the ability to make that argument credibly. And that does bleed over into the general election. We're going to see that make waves for a long time. It is exactly the worst nightmare for Republicans in this election cycle, it is exactly what they didn't want to happen.
It's why they spent years trying to lay the foundation for better relations with Hispanics. That's why you see candidates like Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio, even Ted Cruz cut an ad in Spanish that he has been airing for his campaign. And that's why you see these candidates out there talking in Spanish on the campaign trail.
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: They know it is essential. How essential is it, you guys, for Republicans to attract the Hispanic vote?
JAMELLE BOUIE, SLATE: It is absolutely vital.
If you look at the swing states, Florida, Virginia, even Ohio, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, these are places where there are substantial portions of not just Latino voters, but African-American voters who see how Republicans talk to Latinos and think to themselves, I don't know if we are going to peel off even a little to vote for Republicans.
If they can't -- if Republicans can't get past Romney's low, bottoming out in 2012, I don't see their path to a national majority.
BASH: Which was 27 percent with Hispanics. That's the whole point of what you were talking about, the Republicans trying to sort of do a better job, because on a national level, they realized the lesson from Romney in 2012 is you can't win with just the white vote anymore.
(CROSSTALK)
BORGER: Romney says it. Romney himself, I remember talking to him after the election, and he said, we have to do better with Hispanics. If I had done better than 27 percent, I would have won this election.
And where Jeb is right now is about where his brother was when his brother won with -- he didn't win, but he had 44 percent of Hispanics. Jeb is about 43 percent.
BASH: Forty-something percent.
BORGER: They even have to do better than that.
BOUIE: What's problematic, especially about Trump's rhetoric, is that it alienates Asian-American voters, too, and so it is a full- spectrum alienation that's just disastrous if they can't do something about it.
KEILAR: Donald Trump fired back against attacks today. The line of attack that Jeb Bush is taking, which as we heard, is that Donald Trump is not a conservative. That's what he's saying. Donald Trump says: "Ronald Reagan wasn't a conservative. He became a great conservative. By the time I'm finished, people will say I am a great conservative, far greater than Jeb would ever have the ability to be."
Do you think this Bush line that he is not a conservative, are Trump supporters, do they even care, Rebecca?
BERG: That's a great question.
From the evidence we have seen so far, it seems like they don't. He has been called a Teflon candidate. I think that's a perfect description of Donald Trump, because he can say anything, you can roll these videos of his past remarks supporting Democratic positions, but people aren't really in the Trump bandwagon for the policy. They're in it for his personality, for his populist rhetoric.
And they're entertained by him. They're excited by him. And that's something that Jeb's reasoned arguments aren't really going to affect.
BASH: Yes. And you said he is the Teflon candidate. Obviously, Reagan was the Teflon president, right? Nothing stuck to him.
But if Ronald Reagan ran in this conservative environment, do you think he would ever get the nomination? I'm not so sure.
BORGER: Probably -- probably not.
BASH: Right? I mean, because -- for the same reason that Trump is citing when it comes to Reagan's past. He did have more liberal -- never mind the past, when he was in office. He raised taxes. He gave amnesty to illegal immigration and so on.
BORGER: But Jeb has to do this, because this is a way for Jeb to say, "I'm a conservative. You don't believe I'm conservative, all you conservatives who don't like me in the Republican Party. I'm conservative. I'm more conservative than this guy."
You know, we'll have to see in your upcoming debate whether they -- you know, whether Jeb continues to take on Trump and the others lay back or, you know, what's going to occur there. Will Jeb do the attacking on Trump for everybody else?
KEILAR: We'll see if that line of attack works. I have to say this because I love it. Borger, Booie, Bash and Berg, thank you so much for coming on.
BORGER: Thanks for having me, Brianna.
KEILAR: I know, I only have the first name, right? But all right. Thanks, you guys, so much. Great panel today.
Donald Trump and the Republican presidential candidates now are gearing up for their second debate. It's going to be right here on CNN. You don't want to miss it. It's September 16. And we'll bring it to you live from the Reagan Library in California.
And then CNN is also hosting the first Democratic presidential debate. That is on October 13 in Nevada.
And just ahead, Baltimore on edge as a judge makes a key ruling in the case of six police officers charged in the death in custody of Freddie Gray. And growing outrage after an amateur video appears to show deputies shooting a suspect who has his hands up. But does a second video offer new clues?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:36:33] KEILAR: We are following major developments in the Freddie Gray case. He was the man who was fatally injured while in police custody. Today a judge's ruling in Baltimore dramatically changed the look of this case.
We have CNN's Miguel Marquez on scene there outside the courthouse in Baltimore. Give us a sense of what happened.
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it was a big and complicated case, Brianna. It's gotten bigger and more complicated. Six different trials now for the six different officers that are
accused in the matter of the death of Freddie Gray. The question now for the prosecution is which officers will go first in all of this as they build their case?
For the defense, it's whether or not they have a jury trial, possibly six different juries, or do they allow a judge, a bench trial to decide this?
Two other big issues the judge decided today. The defense had brought a motion to dismiss all or some of the charges against all or some of the officers. He denied that motion. The defense argued that the prosecutor, Marilyn Mosby, on May 1, when she said before this crowd out here, "No justice, no peace," that she basically politicized things and she turned it into something that it wasn't, prejudicing the case, basically, against them.
The judge admonishing the state's attorney, saying it's not the state's attorney's job to calm the city, but nevertheless denying that motion.
Also the motion to recuse the state's attorney, to basically say she can't handle this case at all; turn it over to a different prosecutor entirely. The judge basically saying it was mind-boggling, the defense's argument on that, and wasn't having any part of it.
Next big item up in this case is the change of venue. That will be heard next week. That will be hard-fought. The defense saying that there is no way that those six officers can get a fair trial in this city, because everybody in Baltimore, 100 percent of the people in this city, were affected not only by the riot but by the curfew that followed -- Brianna.
KEILAR: All right. Miguel Marquez for us there in Baltimore.
Joining me now in THE SITUATION ROOM to talk things over, we have CNN anchor Don Lemon. We have CNN law enforcement analyst Cedric Alexander; HLN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, Joey Jackson; and we also have Black Lives Matter activist DeRay McKesson.
OK, Joey, first to you. What's your reaction to this news that there are going to be six separate trials for these police officers who are facing charges?
JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: It's a big development, Brianna. Because what a judge does when they do this, it's called a severance motion that the defense puts forth to separate different trials. And what a judge does is balance the need for judicial efficiency and economy -- it's a lot easier to try everyone together, there's one trial -- against the prejudice in doing so to each individual defendant, because defendants oftentimes, when they're paired together, point fingers. And so it's a huge development.
But I take two things away from this. The first thing is, is that I think the judge is preserving and protecting, certainly, the record in terms of any appeal if there's a conviction. It's a major issue, because what if one defendant, of course, points at another defendant, and you're being tried together? It's very difficult. So they're preserving the record on appeal by allowing for fairness.
And the second basic thing, what the judge is doing, is at the end of the day, I can't help but wonder what, if any, statements each of those officers made against the other that could prejudice them. And so I'm left wondering exactly what they said in their affidavits when they were investigated and interviewed by the various law enforcement entities, including the district attorney's office itself.
[18:40:07] KEILAR: Yes -- no, that's a really good question.
Cedric, there were no charges today dropped against these officers. What does that tell you?
CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, it suggests to me clearly that the state feel that they have the evidence needed in order to go forward in these cases.
Of course, there was a lot of controversy around that, as you well know, Brianna, in the beginning. But if the state -- if the state feels confident and they have what they need to go forward, it's going to certainly make for a very interesting trial; because there are a lot of questions here that truly are left unanswered, not only as relates to Freddie Gray but also to officers and just really how much involvement they really did have in this.
KEILAR: Don, you -- I know you've interviewed the prosecutor there, Marilyn Mosby. She's been criticized. She was criticized today by the judge for saying, "No justice, no peace" when she first addressed the media about this case. What is -- the judge said she was an advocate. What is your take on that?
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Well, I interviewed her right after she made the announcement about those officers. I think that, you know, anyone who's in the public eye is going to get criticism. I'm not, you know, a legal expert. But I will say the judge knows more than any of us would know.
And I think even people who are supporters of Marilyn Mosby, they may be happy that she said it, but they will tell you privately she probably should not have, because she doesn't want to make it seem that this case is being politicized in any way and that she is choosing sides. Because at the end of the day, her job is about justice and not appeasing one side or the other.
KEILAR: DeRay, what do you think about this, the judge's criticism that Marilyn Mosby made herself an advocate with that statement?
DERAY MCKESSON, BLACK LIVES MATTER ADVOCATE: I think that she was just responding -- I think she was responding to the cause of the people. I think that she is -- her role is to advocate for justice. In this case, it is clear to the people what justice would look like. And in some ways it would be accountability for these officers. The outcome of today was really important in terms of there being
individual trials, because it shows that the level of attention and care that she put into the charges is being responded to productively by the court. So we're looking forward to seeing what this looks like as it plays out. We continue to have faith in Marilyn Mosby as the state's attorney.
KEILAR: Today, DeRay, the Baltimore Police said that they respected your right to protest peacefully, but they said that they won't allow roadways to be blocked. We have video that you posted of an arrest. This is a Vine video that you posted. Do you think that police are respecting rights here?
MCKESSON: No, the police continue to be -- to provoke protesters. They did it when we were here in April in the streets, and they did it again today.
We were out there and peacefully protesting. And what you see on that Vine is a Taser placed in the back of Kwame Rose (ph). Though they did not fire the Taser, they were being very aggressive with him. And they subsequently said that he kicked an officer in the face, something that we did not see in there. So we're looking forward to seeing any evidence of that.
But the police continue to be the violent people. They've been violent since August, not only here but in places across the country; and they continue to target protesters, which is what we saw today.
KEILAR: Don, react to that. React to that video that we're seeing.
LEMON: Well, I didn't -- I haven't really looked at the video; I haven't had time to study the video. But I will say this, that in some ways, I know that the six officers are on trial here, but in some ways, the Baltimore police are damned if they do, damned if they don't. Because in the beginning they said that they were given orders to stand down, and they were criticized for that. And now they're being aggressive, and now they're being criticized for that.
I think -- listen, I think that Black Lives Matter is important. I think the people out there who are protesting, I think it's important.
But I also think it's important that people are allowed to be able to go to work, that people should be allowed to go home. And -- but I think it's important that people should be allowed to be able to protest. And there are places and ways that you can protest.
But if the police did anything wrong in that situation, if they're being overly aggressive, then that needs to be looked at. But it can be very frustrating if you're protesting and you're blocking people's way, and you're taunting police.
KEILAR: Joey, quick -- quick final word to you.
JACKSON: Ultimately, I think what happens is, is that the judge's rulings clear the way for what we're going to see at trial. We know, of course, the state's attorney now is going on, and she'll be presenting the case. We know now that there will be six separate trials, and that complicates it.
And the final way is this. Because it's going to be prohibited, really, for one officer to come in and testify against another. Why, Brianna? Because I have a Fifth Amendment privilege against self- incrimination. And so obviously, it's going to be very difficult for the prosecution in that aspect to try to pit one against the other, at least in terms of calling them to testify at trial.
KEILAR: yes, this is just the beginning of this. Thank you so much, Joey. DeRay, really appreciate you joining us from Baltimore there. Cedric and Don Lemon, thanks so much, guys.
Don Lemon, I should mention, will be back with more news in just a few hours on "CNN TONIGHT," and that is at 10 Eastern.
And just ahead, it's a big win for President Obama. Why his opponents in the Senate will not be able to block the Iran nuclear deal.
And Secretary of State John Kerry talks to CNN about the ISIS threat, why he says it will take people on the ground to defeat the terror group.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: Don Lemon, I should mention, will be back with more news in just a fewer hours on "CNN Tonight". That is at 10:00 Eastern.
[18:45:02] And just ahead, it is a big win for President Obama. Why his opponents in the Senate will not be able to block the Iran nuclear deal.
And Secretary of State John Kerry talks to CNN about the ISIS threat, why he says it will take people on the ground to defeat the terror group.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: President Obama scored a major victory today, picking up enough support in the Senate to keep his opponents from blocking the Iran nuclear deal. Secretary of State John Kerry defended the deal again today in an interview with CNN chief international correspondent Christian Amanpour.
And Kerry also made news when Christiane asked him about the possibility of ground forces taking on ISIS.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[18:50:06] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Is there any indication that the United States is moving any closer to gathering some kind of coalition, western, regional or both, to defeat ISIS as you have said it needs to be defeated?
JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, it does need to be defeated. It has made that more clear putting its exclamation point on that reality which we all knew anyway. But in the last days, with the beheading of the professor who guarded the antiquities, as well as with the destruction of the antiquities and its own threats and movements within the region, this is a very dangerous group. And we need to -- we need to increase the pressure on them. And we are talking about very specific ways to do that with other countries in the region.
You are correct. There will need to be people on the ground. I am convinced there will be at the appropriate moment. And I believe that that pressure will increase and is increasing even as we're talking about in many different ways.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: The increasing pressure that Kerry mentioned includes thousands of migrants fleeing ISIS and the fighting in the Middle East in North Africa. Hundreds of them die every month. Today, one image in particular is capturing the world's attention. We do need to warn you that this is very disturbing.
It shows the body of a small boy after he washed ashore near a resort in Turkey. Now, we don't know his name. We don't know where he's from. Authorities say that he probably came on a boat of Syrian refugees, his death only part of this growing crisis.
Today, European nations are calling for urgent coordinated action to care for the tens of thousands of migrants who have arrived on the continent and have no place to go.
We're going to have more news ahead. Stay with us.
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[18:56:35] KEILAR: Recapping our developing story, 400 law enforcement officers are hunting for three suspects in the killing of a police officer north of Chicago. Stand by for an update on the search.
But we also want to alert you to a special report tonight on CNN that looks at a baffling old murder mystery.
CNN's Randi Kaye is here in THE SITUATION ROOM with a preview -- Randi.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, Shirley Reine was gunned down in her home in 2005 and left for dead. At the time, she was mixed up in a lawsuit with her two stepsons.
The issue was her husband, a notorious arsonist who had a really bad reputation around town had made a will leaving everything to Shirley and cutting out his own sons. She was killed ten days before their scheduled court date. Now a decade later, her case is still a mystery.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shirley Reine's final day was very typical. She spent time after work with her sister, even though the two of them worked all day together. They would often spend their evenings together as well.
KAYE (voice-over): The evening of May 9th was no exception. After work, Shirley drove down the street to Loretta's house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Every night at 6:00, she'd be there for dinner. And she couldn't be late.
KAYE: Only that night, Shirley was late. She arrived noticeably unsettled, disturbed that her stepson Todd had been visiting his ex- girlfriend's house, just two doors down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She just felt very uneasy that he was still there. I didn't think anything of it, had dinner.
KAYE: After dinner, the two sisters watched some TV, and then Shirley drove home, right on schedule.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She left between 8:30, quarter to 9:00.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She pulled into her garage and as she was getting out of the car, she was ambushed. She was shot twice and left there for dead.
KAYE: One .9 millimeter shot to her chest, the second to her head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The way she was killed tells you that they knew what her routine was. They knew when she was going to arrive home. They knew how she was going to arrive home.
KAYE: And they knew not to leave any evidence behind. No sign of forced entry. No murder weapon. And not a single witness.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This wasn't an accident. This was intentional. It was planned very well in advance.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAYE: Meanwhile, only one person was ever charged in the case. His name is John Rams. And we interview him for this special tonight. He was charged with murder after a six-year investigation and then acquitted three years later after the trial. He told us he did not shoot Shirley Reine. In fact, he said he warned authorities that someone was going to, though authorities have told us they don't have any record of Rams warning them.
Meanwhile, Shirley's stepson, Todd Reine, who was suing her for some of his father's estate, was never named as an official suspect or charged. Though the D.A. did suggest he wanted to pay John Rams to have Shirley Reine killed.
The case, Brianna, still remains unsolved as we said after ten years now.
KEILAR: We will be watching tonight. Randi, thank you so much. Be sure to catch Randi Kaye's "CNN Special Report: Murder on Cape Cod". That's tonight at 9:00 Eastern.
And thank you so much for watching. I'm Brianna Keilar, sitting in for Wolf Blitzer here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
And "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" begins right now.
