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The Situation Room
Interview With Texas Congressman Will Hurd; Mass Shooting Investigation; Head: FBI Investigating Shooter's Travel, Potential Terror Ties; New Details on Couple Behind Shooting Massacre. Aired 6- 7p ET
Aired December 03, 2015 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:02]
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: We're getting dramatic new details about the slaughter, the escape, and the shoot-out with police. Did authorities miss clues this kind of an attack was in the works?
We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
BLITZER: The breaking news tonight, new signs that the married couple behind a shooting massacre in California may have had ties to terrorists; 24 hours after police killed Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik in their getaway car, law enforcement officials tell CNN Farook apparently had been radicalized and was in touch with terror suspects being investigated by the FBI.
Sources say that may have been a factor in the attack. Investigators searching the couple's home have found a dozen additional pipe bombs along with a huge haul of ammunition. But they say they still don't know why the pair walked into a holiday party at Farook's workplace and opened fire.
Hundreds of terrified workers escaped the deadliest gun massacre since Sandy Hook. And, tonight, police say the death toll stands at 14, while the number of wounded has climbed to 21.
Congressman Will Hurd will tell us what he's learning. He's a member of the House Homeland Security Committee and a former CIA officer.
Our correspondents and analysts, they are also standing by to cover the breaking story for us.
Up first, let's go to our justice correspondent, Pamela Brown. She's in San Bernardino for us with more on the investigation.
Pamela, what are you learning?
PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know now, Wolf, that the FBI is investigating this.
And they are looking at a number of working theories right now, trying to figure out whether the gunman and his wife were radicalized or whether this was simply a workplace dispute or a blend of the two. That right now is what investigators are working on.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): Phone communications reveal Syed Farook had been in touch with FBI terrorism subjects over the last several years, though, according to officials, they were not considered high-priority subjects.
JARROD BURGUAN, SAN BERNARDINO POLICE CHIEF: He was not on the radar screen of our agency prior to yesterday.
BROWN: Law enforcement officials say Farook's behavior at Wednesday's holiday party Wednesday raised concerns with at least one witness.
BURGUAN: We did have some initial information that he left under some kind of duress or as if he was angry. We also had somebody else say that he just kind of disappeared. We don't know where he went from there.
BROWN: He and his wife, Tashfeen Malik, later returned dressed in black, tactical gear and heavily armed to launch the attack. 2
Patrick Baccari shared a cubicle with Farook and worked with him for three years. He was drying his hands in the restroom when the shooting began.
PATRICK BACCARI, CO-WORKER: I thought somebody booby-trapped the towel dispenser because I was being pummelled when I was pulling the towels out of the dispenser. And so I looked back in the mirror. I could see I was bleeding in my temple, my nose, and then there's other little fragments. They hit me all over the place.
BROWN: The couple then slipped out of the door into a black Ford SUV, which they rented locally. One reason investigators believe this might have been more than just a workplace dispute is the cache of explosives and ammunition they found. Officials say it's clear there was planning before the attack.
BURGUAN: If you look at the amount of obvious preplanning that went in, the amount of armaments that he had, the weapons and the ammunition, there was obviously a mission here. We know that. We do not know why.
BROWN: Tonight, investigators are scrutinizing Farook's overseas travel. CNN has learned he traveled to Saudi Arabia in 2013. During that time, officials believe he met his wife, a native of Pakistan who came to the United States in July 2014 on a fiancee visa and later became a lawful permanent resident.
Farook was born in Illinois to parents of Pakistani descent. An online dating profile says he's from a -- quote -- "religious and modern family and enjoys traveling and just hanging out in the backyard doing target practice" with his younger sister and friends.
Farook's family say they are stunned.
FARHAN KHAN, BROTHER-IN-LAW OF FAROOK: I have no idea. Why would he do that? Why would he do something like this? I have absolutely no idea. I am in shock myself.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And we have learned from officials that the two were not on the FBI's radar, any watch list, and that is in part why it's taking awhile to get some information here, because they have to build, piece together their lives.
As one official said, the FBI will essentially rip apart their lives, put everything together. Right now, Wolf, they are going through the electronics that they had in their home, in the car and elsewhere.
And so far, I'm told at this early stage in the investigation, there is no evidence to indicate a clear-cut motive at this stage -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Pamela Brown, thanks very much.
Our chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto, is also working his sources, learning more about Farook's apparent radicalization and foreign travel.
[18:05:01]
What have you learned, Jim?
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Let's talk about communication first, because after an attack like this, you look at communication and foreign travel for clues.
In that communication, they know that he was in touch with known terror subjects both overseas and at home. They are not talking about senior leaders in ISIS or recruiters or even operators, but sympathizers.
The trouble is, at any given time in the U.S., you have hundreds of people who are doing the same thing on jihadi Web sites and elsewhere, so that by itself does not mean you're going to become a terrorist. But we also know, when you look at patterns of these attacks, that it is found that's where these people often meet.
It's where they find their contacts. It's often where they are radicalized as well. So, that's why that's an important clue at this point.
Let's talk about foreign travel. It's another thing you look at. We know now that he went to Saudi Arabia, as Pam mentioned there, not just once in 2013, but also again in 2014. And we know that he went to Pakistan as well.
You speak to investigators involved in this case. Travel to any one of those countries by itself doesn't necessarily mean anything. He had family in Pakistan. We know he went to the hajj in Saudi Arabia. He may very well may have met his wife, his soon-to-be-wife in Saudi Arabia on that second trip.
But after an attack like this, they are looking to see if there is anything significant in that foreign travel as well. Who did he meet while he was over there? Again, all these are clues at this point. There is not a definitive motive, but they become more important after the fact and particularly after the kind of contact he had with known jihadi sympathizers.
BLITZER: And they are looking at all those leads. There is going to be a huge investigation obviously to see if there are others who may still be at large, part of this plot, or if the two acted strictly by themselves. Jim Sciutto, thanks very much.
Joining us now is a leading member on the House Homeland Security Committee. Congressman Will Hurd is joining us. He's also a former CIA officer.
Congressman, thanks very much for coming in.
I know you have been briefed on what is going on. I understand there's probably stuff that you can't tell us, but you agree with all the reporting we have that this Syed Farook was apparently radicalized in some fashion, either by his travels to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or someplace else, or online?
REP. WILL HURD (R), TEXAS: The initial evidence seems to suggest that that's exactly the case.
And this is one of the, I think, issues that law enforcement is worried about, is kind of this lone wolf that is not on anyone's radar that gets radicalized some way, whether it's online or in their travel. And this is one of the more difficult areas for law enforcement to tackle.
But what they're doing right now is, they're going to be monitoring, looking through every piece of information they can find in order to use this to see if there are other folks like this gentleman, this person that they can find and try to stop.
BLITZER: He was a killer. I wouldn't call him a gentleman.
HURD: Killer, yes.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: He obviously killed 14 people. He injured together with his wife 21 people.
HURD: Yes.
BLITZER: But does it look like he -- if he was radicalized, let's say, online, does it look like it was an ISIS-inspired activity, an al Qaeda-inspired activity, because they are both pretty active in social media?
HURD: I don't think there is enough information out there to point a direction to one of those two groups.
But when you look at -- this is the tactics, techniques and procedures that al Qaeda uses, that ISIS uses. ISIS' ability to leverage social media to radicalize someone, even though they never stepped food in Syria or Iraq, is unprecedented. And this is -- we got to start being able to counter that narrative and address ISIS' ability to leverage that social media.
BLITZER: What is stunning is the arsenal that this husband and wife team put together, the weapons, the rounds of ammunition, the bombs, the improvised explosive devices, these pipe bombs that they were developing right inside that home in Redlands right next to San Bernardino. What does that say to you?
HURD: It said that this was -- he's been planning this and that this has been going on for a really long time.
And he had a purpose. And it's hard for us to understand a sick mind like this, that someone would walk in on two co-workers and kill them and murder them in cold blood. It's unbelievable. And we got to make sure that we're learning everything we can from this.
I know law enforcement and intelligence agencies are working around the clock, trying to find clues that they can use to see if there's other things like this going on and trying to stop it.
BLITZER: Congressman, stand by.
We're going to continue our conversation, much more with Congressman Will Hurd.
We're getting more information coming into THE SITUATION ROOM as well, more on the breaking news right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:14:11]
BLITZER: We're following the breaking news on the California shooting massacre, the married couple behind the attack, new information coming in.
Officials tell CNN that the husband, Syed Rizwan Farook, apparently was radicalized, was in touch with terror suspects.
The House Homeland Security Committee member Will Hurd, he's with us. He's a former CIA officer.
Congressman, stand by.
We're getting some more breaking news coming into THE SITUATION ROOM.
I want to go to our terrorism analyst Paul Cruickshank.
Paul, you have new information about another ISIS plot in Europe. What are you learning? PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Wolf, this comes from a
senior European counterterrorism official, who tells me that there is specific intelligence that has been obtained by European security agencies that ISIS, ISIS in Syria and Iraq, is aiming to hit the United Kingdom next.
[18:15:05]
The intelligence suggesting that British ISIS operatives in Syria and Iraq have been tasked to return to the U.K. to launch an attack against the United Kingdom, and that these concerns have been compounded by that vote yesterday in the British House of Commons authorizing British airstrikes for the first time against ISIS in Syria.
They are treating this very, very seriously, indeed. Not clear how imminent this threat is, but it comes after the fact that, in mid- November, a British ISIS fighter, Aine Davis, was arrested in Turkey. And the Turks -- and CNN has confirmed this -- the Turks believe he was on the way back to Europe with attack plans from the ISIS leadership in Syria and Iraq, incidentally, Aine Davis being an associate of Mohammed Emwazi, otherwise known as Jihadi John.
So, real concern now about the threat to the United Kingdom -- more than 700 British extremists have traveled to Syria and Iraq, about half that number believed to have come back, so a concern in Europe, particularly in the U.K. now that we saw in Paris, an attack like that, could play out again perhaps in the United Kingdom in the week ahead, Wolf.
BLITZER: Jihadi John, the British subject, Mohammed Emwazi, he was killed in a U.S. drone strike not that long ago.
You're also getting new information about that Paris terrorist who is still at large, the most wanted man in Europe now. What are you learning?
CRUICKSHANK: What we're hearing is the trail for Salah Abdeslam, the eighth attacker, the so-called eighth attacker in Paris, has gone completely cold, and in fact has been cold since the day after the attacks.
The last European security agencies know about his whereabouts is when he was dropped off by a friend in the Brussels district of Schaerbeek. Since then, the trail has gone cold. But I was told that they now believe that he essentially chickened out of blowing himself up in Paris, he panicked, and when he called his friends in Brussels to come and pick him up in the middle of the night after the attacks, he was very panicky, he was freaking out, he was nervous.
And so it appears that he backed out of a plan to become a suicide bomber. Obviously, he still participated overall in that attack, but backed out of a plan to become a suicide bomber. They now feel he may be persona non grata when it comes to ISIS. So, if indeed he at some point planning to go to Syria, he may not, they think, be welcomed back by the terrorist organization, Wolf. BLITZER: Interesting stuff. Let's see what happens. Thanks very
much for that.
Let's get back to Congressman Will Hurd. He's a member of the House Homeland Security Committee.
These threats to the U.K. now, because -- maybe because of the vote in the British House of Commons to support British airstrikes against ISIS targets in Syria, you take that seriously?
HURD: You should always take it seriously.
If intelligence services in the U.K. are saying it's a credible threat, then it's likely a credible threat. And one of the things that needs to be happening right now is our European allies, they need to do a better job of sharing information amongst each other.
I sat on a task force looking at the threat of ISIS to the homeland. And one of the things that we found out is that our European partners was not sharing information on known bad guys amongst each other.
We were sending tens of thousands of names of known terrorists to our European partners, and they weren't checking that information against known travelers.
BLITZER: The concern Americans have right now, what happen in San Bernardino, 14 people killed, 21 people injured in this -- clearly a terror attack -- we don't know the specific motivation, but clearly a terror attack, it follows what happened in Paris, follows all of these concerns that are going around the world.
And people are really worried, especially about copycats and others who may be inspired, if you will, by this ISIS or al Qaeda social media campaign.
HURD: No, you're absolutely right.
And this is a problem. And we need to do everything we can to stop it. These are all symptoms of a larger problem. That's ISIS being able to operate in Syria and Iraq. We're not doing enough to stop them there. We don't have enough aggressive intelligence collection on the ground to learn more about the plans and intentions of these groups and learn more about the leadership of these groups and what they are trying to do in Europe and right here on our own shores.
BLITZER: These two terrorists, Syed Farook, his wife, Tashfeen Malik, they had thousands of rounds of ammunition, lots of weapons. They had bombs. They were making bombs in their apartment, but apparently they were not on any terror watch list or the FBI's radar or anything like that. Is that a failure?
HURD: You can't tell if it's a failure yet or not.
So, we have got to learn a little bit more about who they are, what have they been doing, who have they been talked to, and to compare that to other information we have and have been collecting over the last 14 years, since the attacks in New York City.
[18:20:05]
So there's a lot of information that needs to be analyzed to make sure this doesn't happen again. And if there were loopholes or something that we miss, how do we close that, so this doesn't happen again?
BLITZER: Because Jeh Johnson, the secretary of homeland security, he briefs your committee all the time.
Apparently, his tough concern, are these individuals who are out there that could be radicalized? And it's not that hard to go buy ammunition and get weapons and potentially build a bomb. They can go to that "Inspire" magazine, that al Qaeda, AQAP, magazine, which has articles all the time how to build a bomb in the kitchen of your mom.
HURD: No, you're right.
And this is a fear for all law enforcement and intelligence agencies. And one of the thing that we need to be doing is countering the messaging of groups like ISIS, how they are leveraging social media. ISIS uses -- has four social media campaigns a day. And they're leveraging this into 49 different languages and dialects.
And they're hitting tens of millions of people. And we got to be messaging there. We got to be stopping that. And we need to be working with nongovernmental organizations, with our partners in Europe, with our partners like Egypt and Jordan and the UAE, in order to counter that narrative.
BLITZER: Do you have any clue who these two individuals may have been in contact with, foreign terrorists, if you will, whether through social media, phone, whatever, texting?
HURD: I'm not aware of that right now, but that is definitely something that is going to be coming to light, and to see who that person was and was that individual in touch with other Americans, other Europeans and figure out how we find them.
BLITZER: You spent nine years in the CIA as a CIA officer. What can the CIA be doing right now to keep the American people safe?
HURD: Running more intelligence operations in Syria, Iraq against leadership of ISIS to try to better understand what the plots are, not only in that region, but in Europe and the United States.
BLITZER: Do you think they are up to the task right now? Because it seems like the intelligence isn't necessarily perfect.
HURD: Well, intelligence is never perfect, but the men and women in the CIA, they want to do this. They want to have their hands untied.
And I think this is part of a political leadership decision to say, hey, we're going to double down in this area. We're going to flood the zone. We're going to make sure that we have the folks on the ground and collecting the information we need, because we can collect the information there to keep us safe over here on our own shores.
BLITZER: Congressman Will Hurd of Texas, thanks very much for coming in.
HURD: Thank you, sir.
BLITZER: Just ahead, we're getting more breaking news on the investigation into the slaughter in San Bernardino. Our terrorism experts, they're digging for new information right now.
Plus, if the gunman, Syed Rizwan Farook, had in fact been radicalized, why wasn't he on the radar of the federal terrorism investigators? Were there missed clues? We have got a closer analysis of that as well.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:27:27]
BLITZER: Tonight, an active crime scene in California at the home of the husband and wife killers behind a shooting massacre.
Sources tell CNN that the husband, Syed Rizwan Farook, apparently was radicalized and was in touch with terror suspects under investigation by the FBI. Local newspapers drive home the horror and the outrage across the state and across the nation; 14 people were killed. The number of wounded has climbed to 21.
CNN's Dan Simon is joining us now from San Bernardino.
Dan, we learned a lot more from police today about the shooting and the killers. Update our viewers.
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, as we have been reporting, authorities found an incredible amount of ammunition in that SUV.
When you add it up, the bullets, the bombs, all that weaponry, investigators say it's clear this had been in the works for some time.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SIMON (voice-over): Tonight, there is still no clear motive for the shooting, but authorities believe this was a carefully staged attack.
BURGUAN: There appears to be a degree of planning that went into this. Nobody just gets upset at a party, goes home and puts together that kind of elaborate scheme or plan to come back and do that. So there was some planning that went into this.
SIMON: Inside the home being rented by the couple, investigators have found 12 pipe bombs and other bomb-making material, as well as nearly 5,000 rounds of ammunition, thumb drives. Cell phones and computers are also being analyzed. Investigators found another 1,600 rounds of ammunition inside the SUV the couple used for the attack.
The man renting the house to the couple says this all comes as a complete shock.
DOYLE MILLER, LANDLORD: No, they were very, very quiet, very quiet people.
SIMON: But their cold-blooded attack was anything but. It all began Wednesday, when 28-year-old Syed Farook abruptly left a work holiday party, then came back with his 27-year-old wife, Tashfeen Malik, around 11:00 a.m.
The couple, dressed in black tactical gear, began firing AR-15-style assault rifles into a crowd of people inside of this conference center, spraying as many as 75 rounds, killing 14 people and wounding 21 others.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Subject is still inside the business -- possible active shooting. Male in black clothing, he's still firing rounds.
SIMON: Before leaving the scene, Farook and his wife left a pipe bomb inside of the building, rigged to a remote inside their getaway vehicle, a rented black SUV.
After the attack, people stream outside, hands raised, as police are unsure if the attackers are still on the grounds. But tips from witnesses led investigators to this house.
BURGUAN: Both suspects were listed on the rental agreement for the property.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
SIMON: As authorities approached, a black SUV sped by. A shoot-out ensued. And police littered the SUV with bullets.
(GUNSHOTS)
SIMON: Authorities believe the couple fired 76 rounds at police as 21 officers unloaded 380 rounds.
[18:30:23] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have the suspect vehicle stopped. We'll go ahead and extract him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now we have one down outside the car, one down inside the car.
SIMON: Both attackers were killed at the scene.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SIMON: Well the husband and wife did not leave a note. There is no manifesto, nothing of that nature. So that that might make it more difficult for authorities to discern a motive. What is clear is that you could have had maybe double or even triple the amount of victims or maybe even a separate attack altogether -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Dan Simon joining us from San Bernardino. Dan, thank you. The FBI now is taking the lead in the investigation into the shooting
rampage. Let's go back to our justice correspondent, Pamela Brown. She's also in San Bernardino tonight. Walk us through this investigation, Pamela. What are authorities doing and what are they looking for right now?
PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I can tell you, at this stage in the investigation, the FBI has already interviewed several associates of both Syed Farook and his wife. They've spoken to family members, associates, anyone that they may have known at the mosque.
So far, I'm told that there's no indication to believe they aren't cooperating. And also, the information that's been gleaned doesn't lead authorities to a clear-cut motive.
In addition to what has been taken from their electronics that were found in the home as well as the car and other places, I'm told, at this stage investigators are still a bit puzzled, Wolf, as to what this is, how to label it. Is it terrorism or was it a workplace dispute or a blend of the two? That's what officials are looking at right now, whether this was a hybrid.
I will tell you, they've been looking into whether Syed Farook may have been radicalized based on the fact that he had a cache of weapons at the home and bombs, had created this bomb lab; that he had been in touch over the years with terrorism subjects that were being investigated by the FBI. And I'm told that those connections were tenuous, that they were over the course of several years, that these were not high-priority terrorism subjects and had they been, and had there been a lot of communication recently, that Syed Farook would have been on the FBI's radar. There likely would have been a terrorism case opened on him.
And we're told at this stage, though, Wolf, officials didn't know much about these two. They weren't on their radar, and that's part of the reason why it's taken a while to get information. They have to build a dossier, piece together their lives and figure out who else these people were in touch with -- Wolf.
BLITZER: I'm sure they're doing that right now as we speak. Pamela, thank you.
Let's bring in our justice reporter, Evan Perez; our terrorism analyst, Paul Cruickshank; our counterterrorism analyst, Phil Mudd; and CNN intelligence and security analyst, Bob Baer.
Evan, you've been doing a lot of reporting. What's the latest information you're learning about these two shooters and their possible motivation?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, the fact, Wolf, that they didn't leave any kind of manifesto. They looked in the bag that they left behind at the scene of the first shooting. They looked in the SUV where the shootout occurred where they died and they found nothing. There's absolutely nothing left behind. And so now the work of
actually trying to piece together what motivated this is actually now just beginning. And it is really, as Pamela just described, is a bit of a puzzle. Because there are indications, there are suspicions, given what they found, the arsenal and so on, that these people perhaps had radicalization in their recent background.
But at the same time, the indications of what actually occurred, which is some kind of altercation, some kind of dispute at the scene, you know, again, indicates workplace. And so perhaps what they're looking at is a hybrid event, and that's one of the working theories the FBI is working on.
BLITZER: Sometimes suicide bombers, they leave these so-called martyr videos behind.
PEREZ: Nothing like that is found.
BLITZER: Nothing's been found yet. Let's see if anything does emerge.
Bob, three explosive devices were found at the scene: pipe bombs, a dozen or so found in the home that they were renting. What does this tell us about how long they might have been planning to do something? How long does it take to build these kinds of improvised explosive devices?
BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Wolf, I think if we look at overall, they spent some time at this. They acquired two semiautomatic pistols, the pistols, a lot of ammunition. They made these bombs that are very dangerous to make. A spark can set them off. They probably read something on the Internet about this. They took their time. They obviously didn't blow their garage up.
But I'd like to say, at the same time, these pipe bombs are not very efficient and, you know, if they really wanted to cause damage and they had firm contacts with these groups in the Middle East, they would have gone to TATP, triacetone triperoxide bombs which are -- do go off and they're very dangerous to make and you got to know what you're doing and you have to practice it.
So the more evidence I see, the more I believe that these guys were self-radicalized. The visit to Saudi Arabia. No doubt they were in touch with people, Wahhabis who are enemies to this country. They've got some ideas there.
[18:35:20] But, you know, so far we've seen nothing to suggest direction, just inspiration from the Middle East. And I still don't buy the workplace violence. There's too much preparation in this, seriously. I mean, you know, this would be way out of the norm for workplace violence.
BLITZER: But it could be some sort of hybrid, right?
BAER: Well, a lot of these people, they pick people that are close to them. And it's truly shocking, because no doubt, Farook befriended some of these people. And the fact they crossed that line of not only slaughtering people but slaughtering people they knew and their families and wives and the rest of it, this is an outrageous act. But the purpose of these people is to commit outrageous acts, to shock us, and to demoralize us. And this sort of stuff you find on the Internet, to hit the people closest to you that you are supposedly friends at. This wouldn't be out of the norm.
BLITZER: Phil, was there some sort of intelligence blind spot if, in fact, this guy, this 28-year-old Syed Rizwan Farook, if he was communicating with known terror suspects who were being monitored, if you will, by the FBI but no one was checking him or his wife, for that matter. Was there some sort of failure there?
PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: I think we've got to get into the detail here. There's a couple questions I'd be asking on the inside. First, you're talking about a numbers game. So let's say the FBI director's talked about 900 people under investigation. Let's give a conservative estimate that each of those people is talking to 50 others. That's 45,000 people already. So to sort through that, and the reason I'd want more detail on this case, I'd have a couple questions.
One, who are they talking to? People involved in high-end cases, I'd be interested. People involved in fundraising, lower on the list. No. 2, did that content of those conversations ever touch on violence? Are they talking about I'm interested in the movement, or are they saying, "I want to get a weapon for an act"? So before I say contact with a terrorist means something, I want to know who they are talking to and whether the content gives me any clues, Wolf.
BLITZER: I've covered a lot of terrorism incidents over the years, Paul, and you study this. This is your main focus. A husband and a wife terror team, how unusual is that?
PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Definitely unusual but not unprecedented.
We saw in 2005 a husband and wife team set off from Belgium to Iraq. They blew themselves up on the same day. The woman was a Catholic convert from Sharlawa (ph), Marie de Gault (ph) . That was in November of 2005.
Also, around that same time a decade ago there was a husband and wife team that set off to assassinate a Dutch legislator, part of the so- called Hoshtap (ph) Group in Holland. He had a machine gun. She tailed along.
So we have seen this before. We've seen it from people who are kind of living in the west, as well.
BLITZER: Here is something else that's unusual. Correct me if I'm wrong. The fact that this couple drops off their 6-month-old baby with the grandmother just before they go on this killing spree. What does that say?
CRUICKSHANK: Well, it's possible that -- it suggests that there was something premeditated here.
But I think the best explanation probably, as people have been saying, as the president was saying and suggesting, is this a hybrid motivation, because after all, they could have gone and attacked a shopping mall or a sports stadium or something like that and killed a lot more people. But he chose to attack colleagues, people he knew.
We've seen this hybrid motivation in a string of recent attacks: that beheading in Oklahoma where he had got fired, Alton Nolen, an extremist. Got fired and went and beheaded a female co-worker at a food processing plant in Oklahoma.
And more recently, in Lyons, in France, an individual who also had problems with his boss and decided he was going to behead him and then take a selfie and send it to ISIS in Syria.
PEREZ: One of the first ever ISIS-inspired cases in the United States involved someone who had a mix of ISIS ideology mixed with black power and that kind of thing.
So, you know, there's never really -- a lot of these don't turn out to be very clean-cut, as much as we would like them to be so we can explain it. There's a lot of things going on in people's minds that sometimes don't fit into neat boxes.
BLITZER: Can we just assume that the husband was the mastermind, if you will, the wife was going along with the husband? Or were they equal in their motivation, as far as going forward with this killing spree?
MUDD: As soon as you get beyond one person in the conspiracy, you've got to assume they're playing off each other. That is they're not insane. There's some level of rationalization about the target. They're sitting there, saying for whatever reason, whether it's radicalization, whether it's workplace violence, they're talking to each other in the evening, saying, "I'm really angry about something that's going on. Do you think what we're going to do is appropriate?"
So you've got to look at this as a tight social circle. In this case, maybe only two people who are playing off each other, who might individually not do something, but together, they're telling each other this is appropriate. Let's go.
[18:40:07] BLITZER: Because Bob, I guess the -- some people are suggesting, like, this, the man, the husband, Syed Farook, 28 years old, he was born here in the United States, has lived in the U.S. his whole life. He married Tashfeen Malik, a Pakistani, met her maybe in Saudi Arabia. They came -- he brought her here to the United States. There's some suspicion out there that she may have radicalized him. Do you buy that?
BAER: That was my first thought. I mean, she's coming from the region. She may have had some family members that died in a drone strike, for instance, or radicalized in Pakistan. It's very easy to happen; come with firm set ideas and arrives and recruits this young man. You know, and takes him over to the side and says we have to use violence to seek justice in the Middle East.
It's very easy this could happen but again, I don't like his visits to Saudi Arabia, to Mecca. So many of these bombers, you know, find Allah again when they go to Mecca. And so any sort of combination. We may never know how he was actually recruited or her.
The Pakistanis are not all that helpful. They don't want to admit that they're sending terrorists to this country. So you know, we may be in the dark for this a long time.
But on the other hand, she knew how to use a gun, and she didn't panic at the last minute. And any time you hand somebody an assault rifle and count on them in following through, they have to be determined. They have to be convinced and they have to know something about weapons. And where did she get that training?
BLITZER: She was the driver also in that getaway SUV. He was the passenger seat. He was trying to kill those police officers who were chasing him.
All right, guys. Stand by.
Just ahead, the active investigation into the rampage continues. Tonight we're going to go back live to San Bernardino. New information coming in.
Plus, we'll get more on the husband and wife assailants and the disturbing new details emerging about both of them tonight.
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[18:46:46] BLITZER: The breaking news this hour: disturbing new details about the husband and wife who killed 14 people in that mass shooting in San Bernardino, California. Sources are now telling CNN that Syed Rizwan Farook had communicated with known overseas terror suspects and had apparently been radicalized.
CNN's Poppy Harlow is on the scene for us in San Bernardino tonight.
Poppy, this remains a very active investigation. What's the latest you're hearing?
POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, an active investigation, Wolf. It is remarkable what we've seen in the last 24 hours. A secret life uncovered, this young couple in their 20s who one neighbor today told me seemed, quote, "so normal, nothing out of the ordinary," who the person that rented them the home said they were very timid. Turns out they had what experts are calling a home bomb lab strewn we've learned today with over 2,000 rounds of ammunition, 12 pipe bombs, a number, dozens and dozens of tools used to make potentially home made IEDs or improvised explosive devices.
It is unbelievable the number of them where I spent last night just ten minutes from the scene of the shooting, that they carried this out all secretly. Let me show you what investigators are doing today. They are still at the home in Redlands, California. They have robots inside of the home and now, they have gone in the
home. They are pulling things out of the garage. The question is, was that makeshift bomb lab in the garage, FBI agents pulling out what they can from there trying to determine how long they were planning, was anyone else helping them?
And the big question in terms of radicalization that we've learned about, Wolf, when was the turning point? When did this couple turn and have this mission to carry out mass murder, Wolf?
BLITZER: Lots of questions there coming up with answers but it's going to take time. Thanks, Poppy.
Let's bring in our chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto.
What more can you tell us about these shooters, the married couple that went ahead and killed all these people?
SCIUTTO: Remember, in Paris, it took days to build the profile of the killers and today, you're still building them. Very quickly, you're getting a fairly clear picture of who those shooters were.
This is what we know now: Syed Farook, he was 28 years old and U.S. citizen and communicated with sympathizers before the attack. U.S. and Saudi officials tell me as well, in terms of his travel, he did travel overseas to Pakistan twice, to Saudi Arabia, and was on one of those trip that he met his wife.
She is Tashfeen Malik. She's 27, born in Pakistan, came here to the U.S. on a fiancee visa, K1 visa. She later got a green card. Of course, they had a child a short time later. They drop that child off with the grandparent on the morning of the attack, claiming that they had a doctor's appointment.
So, Wolf, as you look at this profile here -- these are things investigators look at, their foreign travel, their foreign communication. Each of them I'm told individually does not indicate anything conclusively. It does make this terrorism but together, those pictures, it creates a picture that makes that a credible path, a credible explanation for this.
The foreign travel, they don't know what happened then, but that fits a pattern of folks who have carried out these kinds of attacks before and that communication with jihadi sympathizers online.
[18:50:01] But again, as Evan, as Pamela, as all of us have been saying from the beginning who are talking to investigators, they are keeping open the possibility this is workplace violence or the possibility it was both workplace violence, the trigger was both workplace violence or workplace grudge and the possible of jihadi terrorism.
BLITZER: Yes, what really worries investigators, Syed Rizwan Farook, the 28-year-old husband, he was born in the United States, raised in the United States, lived in the U.S. his whole life, and apparently had become radicalized in some way. SCIUTTO: It's a great point because this idea that the threat is from
the outside, or, you know, purely from the outside, because you saw this in Paris, a lot of people talked about the border. But the fact is, those Paris attackers, many of them were Europeans, right?
BLITZER: With the French or Belgian --
SCIUTTO: French or Belgian, and here, we have at least one was an American.
BLITZER: All right. Thanks very much, Jim Sciutto, for that.
We've got more breaking news coming up. Stay with us.
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[18:55:20] BLITZER: We're following the breaking news on the shooting massacre in California.
The search for a motive including a possible link to foreign terrorists. Officials just released the names of the 14 people murdered, ranging in age from 26, the youngest, to 60 years old. The forensic psychiatrist Lisa Van Susteren is with us tonight, along with our law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes and Cedric Alexander.
Tom, how extensive was the planning for this attack?
TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, it must have been extensive enough, Wolf, to acquire all of that ammunition, acquire the four weapons, acquire the body armor, you know, the pipes, the explosives that we're going to go into the pipe bombs, the detonators.
So I would think at least, at least probably weeks or months at the minimum.
BLITZER: Lisa, the couple, they dropped off their 6-month-old child with the grandmother that morning. They had a getaway car. Does it appear they were ready to try to escape or were they ready for suicide, if you will, for death?
LISA VAN SUSTEREN, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Well, I presume that they were going to try to incur as much damage as they could so they were potentially planning their next stop and then that got interrupted. So, you know, we don't really know. But that's what I would suspect.
BLITZER: Assuming, though, and let's talk about the mother in this particular case, 27 years old, Tashfeen Malik, assuming she was dropping off the child and knew she was going to die, walk us through how a mother can do that.
VAN SUSTEREN: Well, this is an interesting point and something Tom and I have talked about and we wonder if it really was his wife who may have radicalized him. And a woman who, in her own mind, is justifying her anger, her rage, could say to herself in this rationalization that I'm giving up my baby for the cause. So that would be the very perverted, demented way of looking at it for her. BLITZER: Cedric, you've studied this kind of psychology as well, the
psychology behind the attack. How will investigators now determine the dynamics in this husband and wife relationship, who perhaps convinced the other to do this?
CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, as they go back into this investigation, Wolf, and more information that they gather, the more it's going to crystallize as to what may have occurred here. We're still operating under this theory that this may have been somewhat of a hybrid attack and that may or may not be true.
But let's recognize something. It would take a certain level of a real sick pathology to get to the point to do that type of damage and decide that you're going to just end it all right there.
I suspect, quite frankly -- and here's one thing that we have not mentioned that we need to consider as well, too, is that how do we not know that these were sleeper cells ready to be activated? And at some point, may be they were. And that is of a real concern.
Was this an arranged marriage, or was she doing her meeting with her in Saudi, it's been reported already, were there plans going back as far back as the date of their marriage, that would have led up to the attack that day?
But here again, to your question, Wolf, it is important to recognize, it takes a very disturbed and pathologically sick individual where they kick it all to the wind and do -- and make the type of attacks that they did and appear to go on, if it had not been interrupted, as has been stated, was going to go to another site and harm people.
BLITZER: Because usually these kinds of mass murders, correct me if I'm wrong, it's the man who does it, not the woman, right?
VAN SUSTEREN: Absolutely. She was obviously trained. It sounds like she may very well, for those reasons, as an additional reason, but I'd like to say one thing and that is, as we look at, is it hybrid or is it not, whatever, it might very well be that in the moment of his intense anxiety about what he was doing, that he might have been primed already. So, something goes wrong at work so he decides to start there, maybe continues down the road.
And let us not forget that for a lot of people, doing something like, this the secret life, the meetings, the planning, the plotting, it's very empowering. So, their aggression is something very exciting, it gives them a sense of manhood and people need to know that that's part of the substrate here.
BLITZER: And potentially, Tom, they could have done a lot more with the thousands of rounds of ammunition that they still have.
FUENTES: If they were better trained, they could have killed many, many more, including the police officers later in the shootout and initially the people at the conference.
BLITZER: And it doesn't include bombs that they had built in their house as well. Very, very chilling material.
All right. Guys, thank very much. That's it for me. Thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer.
CNN's special coverage of the San Bernardino shootings conditions right now with "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT."
