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The Situation Room

Obama Slams Lack Of Leadership On Pandemic Response; In Texas, Cities Square Off With State Over Reopening; Trump Fires State Department Watchdog Reportedly Investigating Pompeo. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired May 16, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[22:00:00]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. This is a special edition of THE SITUATION ROOM.

Tonight, for the second time in one week, President Trump facing criticism from the leader he replaced, Barack Obama. The former president with a tough condemnation of the response to the coronavirus pandemic, at a time when the numbers from this crisis are rising. There are now more than 4.5 million confirmed cases of coronavirus worldwide with at least 310,000 confirmed deaths. Here in the United States at least 1.4 million Americans have been infected while well over 88,000 Americans have died.

Former President Obama made those comments in an online commencement address to graduates of historically black colleges and universities, not holding back as he talked about what he see as wrong with the Trump administration's response to this pandemic. Watch this.

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BARACK OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDNET: More than anything, this pandemic is fully finally torn back the curtain on the idea that so many of the folks in charge know what they're doing. A lot of them aren't even pretending to be in charge. If the world's going to get better, it's going to be up to you. But everything suddenly feeling like it's up for grabs. This is your time to seize the initiative.

Change requires strategy, action, organizing, marching and voting in the real world like never before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: President Obama didn't leave it there. Two hours ago in the graduate together special that was broadcast here on CNN and the other major television networks, he said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Doing what feels good, what's convenient, what's easy, that's how little kids think. Unfortunately, a lot of so-called grownups, including some with fancy titles and important jobs, still thinks that way, which is why things are so screwed up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right. Let's go to the White House right now where White House Correspondent Jeremy Diamond is joining us. So, Jeremy, how are White House officials reacting to these late breaking developments?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, President Obama is certainly scaling up his criticism of the Trump administration. It was just last week that we were talking about President Obama's comments on a call with former Obama alumni when he criticized the Trump administration's response as an absolute, chaotic disaster, and anemic and spotty.

Tonight though, Wolf, the White House press secretary is responding to President Obama's comments, saying in a statement, President Trump's unprecedented coronavirus response has saved lives. His early travel restrictions and quarantines protected the American public while his Paycheck Protection Program and direct payments to Americans got needed relief to our country. Moreover, President Trump directed the greatest mobilization of the private sector since World War II to fill the stockpile left depleted by his predecessor.

Now, Wolf, that last line about a depleted stockpile is an attack that we have heard from President Trump and his aides repeatedly leveled at his predecessor and his predecessor's administration. While it's true some of the items in the National Stockpile had not been restocked, the stockpile was, by no means, left depleted when President Trump came into office. And, of course, he did come into office three years before this coronavirus pandemic came to the United States.

Now, Wolf, we have not yet heard President Trump directly rebut President Obama's criticisms of his handlings of this coronavirus response, but what we have heard, Wolf, is a ramping up of attacks by President Trump leveled at his predecessor, specifically going after him with a new scandal, quote/unquote, scandal, something that President Trump is calling Obamagate, accusing the former president without any evidence of essentially leading a conspiracy to try and undermine his presidency. Again, we should stress, there is no evidence to back up what Trump is saying here.

But nonetheless, Wolf, the current president, he is at Camp David right now and he has been meeting with some of those conservative fire brands on Capitol Hill, some of his closest allies on Capitol Hill, and they are all working right now to see how they can continue to amplify this Obamagate conspiracy theory. Wolf?

BLITZER: All right. Jeremy Diamond at the White House, thanks very much. I know you're with your sources. We'll get back to you.

Right now, I want to bring in CNN's Senior Political Commentator, David Axelrod. He was a former senior adviser to President Obama.

So, David, this certainly isn't the first time we've seen the former president criticize the White House over its response to this pandemic, but what do you make of these late comments today from the former president?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, they came in the context of exhorting these young people to seize the mantel of leadership and to step up and try and fill the void that's been left.

And, by the way, his remarks, if you read them broadly, are, yes, they were pointed about President Trump even though he never mentioned him.

[22:05:08]

But they also were a condemnation of sort of the status quo of politics in a larger sense. And it really was, this very uncertain moment, a way of telling these students that you actually have the ability to grab the wheel of history and steer it in a different direction.

But there's no doubt, when you put the two speeches together, the critique was very clear. I thought actually the one in the high school speech was really interesting when he said, doing what feels good, what's convenient, what's easy, that's how little kids think.

And he said, unfortunately, there's some adults in high places who think the same way. And then he went on to tell these kids to embrace a different set of values, responsibility, generosity, honesty, respect for others. So there was -- I think in some ways, that was most pointed of all the commentary.

BLITZER: Do you think this is a preview of what we're going to be seeing in the coming weeks and months from the former president out there on the campaign trail, hitting President Trump for a failure to lead?

AXELROD: Yes. Well, I mean, I think that he is clearly going to be involved in this campaign. We saw in 2017 in the governor's races and then you had 2018, the president emerged as the campaign season began. And he offered some pretty tough critiques, again, not by name, necessarily, but of the administration. And now, look, the White House can try and sell the country on the fact that they have made a flawless and timely response to the virus.

I think the American people have a different view. That was reflected in the CNN poll and other polls this week. And so they're really -- they're pushing a boulder uphill on this one. Everybody knows the administration was slow, that the president's forecasts were wrong.

He attacked the Obama administration for not providing adequate tests when, in fact, there was no corona -- no COVID-19 to prepare a test for during the Obama administration. So there are a lot of -- I mean, this is not a winning argument for him.

Honestly, I'm not sure that a battle with Barack Obama is necessarily the best political strategy for Donald Trump, in that President Obama is actually quite popular now, much more so than President Trump.

BLITZER: Yes. But you see the rhetoric from President Trump against President Obama is escalating. Seemingly every day, there's really strong words that he's bashing him, his urging Congress to open up hearings on President Obama. It's very, very tough.

AXELROD: No. I think -- look, I think he's making a calculation, and the calculation is this fires up his base and that this is going to be an election in which getting your base out may make the difference. And he also knows that Obama is the number one potentially beneficial surrogate for Joe Biden, and Joe Biden's popularity is linked to Obama. So if he can erode or degrade the Obama legacy in some way, that that will help also erode Biden's appeal. But there's some risk associated with that strategy, as I said.

BLITZER: There certainly is. All right, David Axelrod, as usual, thank you very, very much.

Right now, I want to get some more on the Trump administration's response to this pandemic crisis. I'm joined by Dr. Seema Yasmin, CNN Medical Analyst, former CDC disease detective. Dr. Yasmin, thank you so much for joining us.

When there is a leadership vacuum at the top at the federal level, let's say, how does it impact the fight against this kind of pandemic?

DR. SEEMA YASMIN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: So leadership for any epidemic investigation is absolutely key. You want to make sure everyone that's involved in the investigation is reading from the same hymn book. With a pandemic that's global, that's affecting all Americans across all states, that leadership becomes even more important.

And we've heard these frustrations even earlier this week during the Senate Health Committee hearing, senators asking for the kind of guidance they need very soon in order to safely open businesses and schools.

And we even heard during that Senate committee hearing the senator from Connecticut asking the CDC director where those guidelines were. They have been so slow to come, Wolf, and it just leaves states scrambling in the dark. It leaves different states doing different things. It doesn't make sense when what you need in a crisis of this scale is a coordinated response, all of us in this together, not a patchwork of responses across the states.

BLITZER: We all heard that very tough criticism from President Obama today that the pandemic has, in his words, torn back the curtain on the idea that folks in charge know what they're doing.

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Do you think there is serious truth to that?

YASMIN: So I'm very disinterested in tit-for-tat fighting between former leaders and current leaders. I'm much more interested and concerned with the fact that we've already buried 88,000 Americans, that we have squandered time, that we're losing this window of opportunity. I can tell you from having been in the trenches and investigated epidemics, time is of the essence, especially early on.

So, look, we've already wasted that. We've asked Americans to stay at home and shelter in place for months and we ask people to make that sacrifice to flatten the curve, not burden the healthcare system, but also to buy time for state, local and federal governments to get their act together, to institute testing, tracing and isolating, and, really, that hasn't materialized.

If you want to critique the public health response, you can go back to previous administrations because, yes, previous administrations didn't have COVID-19 to contend with, but it was still their role to make sure that America was prepared for an imminent pandemic and that hadn't been done.

BLITZER: Dr. Yasmin, tensions seemingly are escalating between the White House and the CDC, where you used to work, over how quickly the U.S. should reopen. How concerned are you about the impact that a feud like this potentially could could have on Americans' safety?

YASMIN: Extremely concerned, because that kind of fighting between federal agencies, I've seen it and it can slow things down. That's the last thing we need. What we need right now is leadership that doesn't sidelined science, that doesn't ask the CDC to spend weeks putting together a 17-page report only to sideline and shelf the report.

We need make sure that instead of politics, what's at the forefront is science. We're using evidence to make sure that all states are in this together, that we're doing the utmost to keep the American people safe, to keep everybody safe.

And time and time again, we see the public being asked to make those sacrifices to change personal behaviors, to stay at home, and we're not seeing governments get their act together to do their part to protect the people. Time's already been squandered. That's deadly in an epidemic situation. We've seen how that's played out here.

It's crucial now that leaders get on the same page and institute a coordinated response against this virus.

BLITZER: Well said, indeed. Dr. Seema Yasmin, as usual, thank you. We're grateful to you for joining us. Thanks so much.

YASMIN: Thank you.

BLITZER: All right. Coming up, in Texas, has become the state versus cities in deciding whether to reopen or keep restrictions in place. The mayor of Austin, Texas standing by to join us live. We'll discuss that and more when we come back.

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BLITZER: This is interesting. During this past week, Texas saw its deadliest day yet of the coronavirus pandemic, 58 deaths in the space of 24 hours and a new spike in cases as well. But the state is pressing ahead with reopening. Here's a look inside a packed Houston restaurant, for example, and you don't see much social distancing at all. In Austin, however, Mayor Steve Adler is keeping his stay-at-home order in place, along with mandating face masks and calling for dine- in restaurants to keep logs of customers for possible contact tracing down the road. That's led to a showdown between city and state.

Mayor Adler is joining us now. Earlier this week, the state's attorney general, Mayor, said your stay-at-home order was illegal and claimed that having restaurants keep lists of clients, in his words, was Orwellian. What do you make of that response?

MAYOR STEVE ADLER (D), AUSTIN, TX: It's a shame. It's the first real push to politicizing this health crisis. I'm trying really hard not to follow the attorney general down that path. We responded to him yesterday.

You know, with respect to restaurants, it is important for our health department to be able to contact trace, to be able to let people know if they were in or around people who have the infection so they can take care of themselves. And quite frankly, the restaurant is keeping a log of who's been in there, it's not too dissimilar just to the reservation log that restaurants have.

But in any event, it's not mandatory, it was just a recommendation. Because, quite frankly, if I went to a restaurant, that's something I'd like the restaurant to do.

BLITZER: Why do you think Austin needs stricter rules and how do you get residents to comply when they're hearing a very different message, for example, from your governor?

ADLER: It's really confusing when you -- when people on the street are hearing conflicting messages from leadership, from hearing different messages coming out of Washington, D.C. They don't know what to believe. They don't know if we're past this crisis. They don't know if it's still serious. They don't know if the virus is still infectious.

And people need to know, because, ultimately, we're not going to be able to enforce our way, really, to any set of rules. We did a really good job in this community, as did many others, of tamping down the virus because of individual decisions made by individuals together add up to a collective action in the community. We're trying to get as much information and data through our community as we can so that they can make informed decisions.

BLITZER: Are you in touch, Mayor Adler, with other city leaders in Texas, major cities in Texas, who are also struggling with the governor's mandates?

ADLER: You know, I'm in regular contact not only with mayors in and around my state of Texas but also mayors across the country on regular and weekly phone calls, and not only that, but mayors across the world.

Right now, in so many places, it is the cities and the urban counties that are really communicating with their communities and establishing what's safe, what's not safe, and then making sure that they're getting good information.

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BLITZER: In addition to calling your restaurant policy Orwellian, the Texas attorney general, Ken Paxton, is also accusing you of trampling on the Constitution by encouraging churches to offer remote services. Do you anticipate the attorney general might take legal action against you and the city, the capital city of Texas, Austin?

ADLER: I can't predict what the attorney general is going to do or not do, but I'm really comfortable with the orders that we have. In this respect, the orders that we have are the same as the governor's order. What the governor has said is that it would be best if churches had their services remote.

Our churches in our area have done a great job of building out that infrastructure. If they won't do that or can't do that, then they need to follow social distancing and we're encouraging face coverings.

But I'm confident that our orders are the right ones. And in fact, in this case, they mirror virtually what the governor has done.

BLITZER: All right. Well, good luck over there in Austin, Texas. It's a great city, a wonderful city indeed. Mayor Adler, I appreciate you joining us.

ADLER: Wolf, thank you. Be safe.

BLITZER: All right. Be safe as well.

So is the president of the United States now purging government watch dogs? His critics say the firing of a State Department inspector general is but the latest move in that effort. A member of the House Oversight Committee is standing by live to join us.

But, first, a quick programming note. Don't forget to tune in. MLB Commissioner Rob Manfred, plus former acting CDC Director Richard Besser, former Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius and activist Greta Thunberg, they'll join our own Anderson Cooper and Dr. Sanjay Gupta in a CNN global town hall, Coronavirus, Facts and Fear. That airs right after this special Situation Room at the top of the next hour, 11:00 P.M. Eastern.

In the meantime, we'll take a quick break.

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BLITZER: We're going to have much more coverage of the coronavirus pandemic and all the late breaking developments in just a moment, but, first, another major story we're following. The fallout right now from President Trump's sudden firing of the State Department's inspector general.

A State Department source confirmed to CNN that the inspector general, Steve Linick, was investigating Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. And there are allegations that Pompeo made improper use of a political appointee.

Now, the ranking member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Bob Menendez, and the House Foreign Affairs Committee Chair, Eliot Engel, they have announced a probe into the firing.

Congressman Ro Khanna is joining us right now. He's a member of the House Oversight Committee. Congressman, thanks so much for joining us.

The president said he lost confidence in the inspector general at the State Department, that's why he was fired. Do you accept that explanation?

REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): No, Wolf. I mean, this is a clear retaliation. There are reports that the inspector general had an investigation on Pompeo. He has personally handed over some of the documents of Rudy Giuliani, his been involvement in Ukraine. Look, the president delights in the phrase, you are fired, and the reality is that he has consistently fired the truth tellers in this administration.

BLITZER: This is the fourth inspector general who has lost his or her job in the past month or so.

A senior State Department official did confirm, Congressman, that Pompeo himself recommended the firing. Is this a case, the House Oversight Committee, your committee, might be looking into?

KHANNA: Well, absolutely. I mean, these agencies are supposed to be independent. We have a democracy and no one has absolute power. And if someone is reported investigating the secretary of state, you can't have the secretary of state short circuit that investigation. And it's outrageous. And what's further outrageous is that this shouldn't be partisan. These traditionally, as you know, Wolf, that these independent agencies, non-political agencies and people are resounding political enemies (ph).

BLITZER: Steve Linick, the inspector general, fired inspector general, appears to have a true bipartisan history as a career official. He oversaw the investigation into Hillary Clinton's use of a private email server, and his report was very critical of Hillary Clinton. Now, an ally of Mike Pence is actually taking over the role as the inspector general at the State Department. What's your reaction to that?

KHANNA: Well, look, this administration has shown that they have no regard for accountability. The reality is inspector generals are tough on whoever is in power. That's their job. These are huge positions of responsibility. You have huge taxpayer dollars. And the job of the inspector general is to have some degree of accountability.

And this administration, whether it was Michael Atkinson or Linick or Colonel Vindman, they've shown that they don't believe in accountability on fact (ph) and reason. It's deeply concerning. And what's more concerning is the that Republicans aren't willing to hold them accountable. BLITZER: As you can see, and as I mentioned, this is the fourth inspector general removed since the start of April alone. That clearly has an effect on other inspectors general working un various parts of the federal government.

KHANNA: It absolutely does. And this is designed to say, don't raise your voice against us.

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Don't investigate anyone in power. It's supposed to have a chilling effect.

Look, Wolf, our democracy is based on the fact that reason and fact matters, that we don't have -- people can do whatever they want. And this administration is providing rough shot over those simple principles.

BLITZER: Congressman Ro Khanna, thanks so much for joining us. We'll continue this conversation down the road. I appreciate it very much. Stay safe out there.

KHANNA: Thank you, Wolf. You, too.

BLITZER: All right. Coming up, the president of the National Urban League will join me live to discuss why minorities are getting hit particularly hard by the coronavirus.

Stick around. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

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BLITZER: We have more on the coronavirus pandemic in just a moment. But look at this, we have some breaking news coming into The Situation Room from Los Angeles. These are live pictures of a multiple building fire near downtown L.A.

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Ten firefighters are reportedly injured already. The Los Angeles Fire Department issued what's called a mayday call over the past 30 minutes or so. We're going to get more information, get you more details and we'll share them with you. That's coming up.

Meanwhile, everyone is affected by the coronavirus, but not everyone is affected equally. Minorities are getting hit harder. The available statistics show that they are dying at a disproportionate rate, a disparity highlighted by former President Barack Obama in a virtual commencement address earlier today to historically black colleges and universities.

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OBAMA: And let's be honest, a disease like this just spotlights the underlying inequalities and extra burdens that black communities have historically had to deal with in this country. We see it in the disproportionate impact of COVID-19 on our communities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right. Joining us now to discuss this and more, Marc Morial, the President of the National Urban League and also the author of a brand new book entitled, The Gumbo Coalition, there you see the book cover. Congratulations, Marc, on the new book.

What concrete measures can be implemented, do you believe -- and you're a former mayor of New Orleans -- right now to lessen the impact in these communities?

MARC MORIAL, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL URBAN LEAGUE: I think, going forward, Wolf, understanding the disparities and some short-term things we have to ensure, and that is that testing and treatment and a vaccine will be equally available to everyone regardless of class, zip code, race or where they stand on a lateral (ph) American life. That's very crucial, and I hope that the federal government is making plans and will reaffirm that with respect to what we must do going forward.

Secondly, Wolf, we have got to deal with these underlying health disparities by, for example, as Congress appropriates money for the hospital systems and the healthcare in America that it be done in an equitable fashion, that we don't just put money into the same system and expect a different result.

That's crucial to how we go forward if we're going to finally be serious about these longstanding disparities. This is not new. COVID has just placed a new spotlight on what has been with us for a long time.

BLITZER: And it's so sad to hear it because we all thought that there was some serious progress being made, but certainly not enough at all. What is the coronavirus, Marc, revealing about inequality in the United States of America today?

MORIAL: I think it's revealing a number of things. I mean, number one, access to and quality of healthcare is disproportionate in American life. Number two, underlying conditions, like people having to do a more challenging job physically, having lower paid jobs, having the stress of living in crowded conditions also affects people's health outcomes.

But I would also add to the health side of this, we are now seeing this unemployment spike. We are seeing an elevation in the unemployment rate (ph). But also note that African-Americans and, if you will, Latinos are much more likely to hold essential jobs. So in the healthcare sector, nurses, nursing assistants, orderlies, those who, in fact, prepare food and keep the facilities clean are more likely to be African-American or Latino.

So they're more at risk, they do have their jobs but they're on the frontlines in fighting this pandemic.

BLITZER: On a local level in cities around the country, for example, what can be done within the community to lessen the impact of a disease like this at this sensitive and critical moment?

I think we may have lost our connection with Marc Morial. We're going to try to reconnect with him if we possibly can. Marc Morial, the President of the National Urban League, and once again, the author of the brand new book, The Gumbo Coalition. We'll continue this conversation with him certainly down the road.

Up next, some have likened him to Dr. Fauci, and CNN spoke exclusively to the doctor who raised the alarm about the coronavirus in China even as officials there continue to downplay it. We'll have a live report. We're going there when we come back.

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BLITZER: Here was the expert who saw China through the SARS epidemic. Now, he's the go-to voice on the deadly coronavirus. CNN's David Culver spoke to the man known as the Dr. Fauci of China.

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DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In the U.S., many have turned to Dr, Fauci, the nation's top infectious disease expert, as that medical voice of reason.

In China, it's Dr. Zhong Nanshan, a well-known respiratory expert speaking exclusively with CNN.

DR. ZHONG NANSHAN, PULMONOLOGIST: I cannot compare with Fauci. He's the adviser of the president, always been standing beside the president.

CULVER: Perhaps he does not physically standing next to President Xi Jinping, but Zhong has the trust of China's central government.

[22:45:04]

His advice sparks near immediate action.

Take, for example, Wuhan's unprecedented lockdown. On January 18th, five days before the city was shut down, Zhong traveled to the original epicenter of the outbreak. He questioned the local health officials.

NANSHAN: In the very beginning, they kept (INAUDIBLE).

CULVER: Zhong, who gained international praise for his work on SARS 17 years ago, believed this rapidly spreading novel coronavirus was far more devastating than being portrayed by Wuhan health officials.

NANSHAN: I suppose they are very reluctant to answer my question. The local authorities didn't like to tell the truth at that time.

CULVER: Publicly, Wuhan health officials, as late as January 19th, labelled the virus as preventable and controllable. And later, the city's mayor even acknowledged not releasing information in a timely fashion. Zhong pressed harder for the actual numbers. And when he got them, he headed to Beijing on January 28th, he briefed the central government. And within hours, he was addressing the nation in this live interview on state-run CCTV.

Zhong revealed that human that human-to-human transmission was likely. And as proof of that, he said the virus had already infected multiple medical personnel.

NANSHAN: That's a very dangerous signal showing this kind of disease, very contagious. So I suppose at that time, the central government listened to our comments (INAUDIBLE) and advice.

CULVER: Within three days, Wuhan went into a harsh lockdown that lasted 76 days. Yet even with China's central government now taking the lead, there is still skepticism over the official numbers. Zhong believes it's partly political and says the Chinese government would not benefit from underreporting.

NANSHAN: The government have got the lesson from the outbreak of SARS 17 years ago. They announced (INAUDIBLE) that all the cities, all the government department, should report the true number of diseases. So if you do not do that, you will be punished.

CULVER: What do you believe to be the origin of this virus in particular?

NANSHAN: I think the origin is very difficult to draw any conclusion at the moment. But I believe this kind of disease has originated from animals.

CULVER: The U.S. President Donald Trump and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo have said they have evidence that it leaked from a lab, namely the Wuhan Institute of Virology, an origin theory many international medical experts and even U.S. intelligence say is highly unlikely.

Now, it seems more and more medical experts do not believe that it originated there. Do you feel that feel that with certainty?

NANSHAN: I don't think so. It took them two weeks to make a very close checkup that proved nothing about it. No, I don't think so.

CULVER: Zhong's focus now is on preparing China for a second wave of the outbreak. Over the past few weeks, new clusters of cases have surfaced in the several cities, including Wuhan.

NANSHAN: We are facing a big challenge. It's not better than the foreign countries, I think, at the moment.

CULVER: Zhong, like Dr. Fauci, has achieved a celebrity status here in China. His scientific expertise aside, many are impressed with Zhong's physical drive.

What is it that you have been doing during this period to stay stay mentally sane, physically fit? How does Dr. Zhong conduct his days? NANSHAN: I still keep exercising and sport and so all the things, and keep an open mind and eat not too much every time. So that's why I since to be still can do something in my age of 84.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Very impressive indeed. David Culver, thanks so much for that report.

Meanwhile, as researchers around the world work at unprecedented speeds to find a vaccine, thousands of people are actually now volunteering to do something what most of us would consider unthinkable, stepping forward to volunteer to be exposed to the virus itself.

CNN's Drew Griffin reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: He donated a kidney last summer. Now, Abie Rohrig is ready to medically volunteer again, this time as a human guinea pig in a vaccine trial designed to infect volunteers with a virus the world has never known.

ABIE ROHRIG, HUMAN CHALLENGE TRIAL VOLUNTEER: Just like the nurses and the doctors on the frontline, I'm willing to take some risks myself if that means that we can move through this as a nation and as a world.

GRIFFIN: He's 20 years old, lives in New York, has seen what the pandemic can do and has signed up to be a volunteer in a potential COVID-19 human challenge vaccine trial. Unlike other vaccine trials, in a challenge trial, a group of volunteers would first be injected with a potential vaccine and a second control group would be injected with a placebo.

[22:50:07]

After allowing sufficient time for the volunteers who got the vaccine to hopefully build up immunities, it's all challenged. All the volunteers, those with and those without the vaccine candidate are intentionally contaminated with coronavirus.

Risky, potentially even deadly, yes, all of that, but it also might be a quicker path to an actual vaccine for the rest of us.

This is designed to get some people sick?

MARC LIPSITCH, HARVARD T.H. CHAN SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: That's right. The intention is to make some people at least infected.

GRIFFIN: Marc Lipsitch, Harvard epidemiologist, is one of the scientists whose idea of using a challenge vaccine for COVID-19 is now gaining interest from the World Health Organization.

LIPSITCH: This could save months of the time required to evaluate a vaccine. The goal is to do the fastest, responsible and scientifically valid way of evaluating a vaccine.

GRIFFIN: Multiple vaccines could be tried at the same time. Controls put in place for property medical care for all the volunteers. And by selecting only young healthy adults, Lipsitch says, the chances of someone dying is extremely low.

LIPSITCH: But it is not zero, and that's why this is an altruistic act to volunteer for this.

GRIFFIN: It's not just the risk. It is the unknown risk, says Professor Robert Read at the University of Southampton in the U.K. He is in favor of the idea but insists there would need to be full disclosure.

DR. ROBERT CHARLES READ, UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHAMPTON: This case is different. We're not able to quantify the risks to the volunteer. And when we take informed consent from them, we will have to say to them that we cannot say exactly what is going to happen to you.

GRIFFIN: You're going to be infected with something for which there is no treatment for at this time.

ROHRIG: Right.

GRIFFIN: Does that give you pause?

ROHRIG: It certainly gives me a pause. And I don't want to be naive or arrogant and I don't want to hide myself from the fact that there is a serious not at all trivial risk to me doing this.

GRIFFIN: Despite the risks, 16,000 people from more than 100 countries have already signed an online form saying they're interested in becoming volunteers. That includes U.S. Army veteran, businessman, husband and father of four, John Gentle of Alabama.

JOHN GENTLE, HUMAN CHALLENGE TRIAL VOLUNTEER: Yes, I am putting more people directly related to me at a greater risk if something were to go wrong, but I feel like the risk is low.

GRIFFIN: So far, the challenge vaccine trial is hypothetical. John Gentle, Abie Rohrig and 16,000 others say they are ready if needed to take the risk if it means they can be part of ending the COVID-19 pandemic.

Drew Griffin, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. I'll be back with another special edition of The Situation Room tomorrow, 6:00 P.M. Eastern.

Next hour, we'll much more coverage of the pandemic. Our CNN Global Town Hall: Coronavirus, Facts and Fears.

But before I go, I want to pause and honor the life of a truly extraordinary woman and a good friend for many years. Phyllis George has died. She was a former Miss America, winning the pageant back in 1971. She then went on to launch a historic career in broadcasting. In 1975, she joined the CBS Sports pregame show, the NFL today, one of the first women with such a high profile role in sports broadcasting here in the United States. She was also the first lady of Kentucky.

But beyond all of that, she was the very proud mother of our CNN colleague and good friend, Pamela Brown, and a truly wonderful son, Lincoln. They were both with their mother in Kentucky during these final days. And, of course, she was such a wonderful, loving grandmother to Pamela's two little kids as well.

I spoke with Pamela, and I always called her Pamela, by the way, not Pam, because that's what Phyllis wanted. And I also spoke with Lincoln tonight and they asked me to share a special thought about their loving mother. And they sent me this note.

For many mom was known by her incredible accomplishments as the pioneering female sportscaster, 58th Ms. America and first lady, but this was all before we were born and never how we viewed mom. To us she was the most incredible mother we could ever ask for, and it is all of the defining qualities the public never saw, especially against the winds of adversity that symbolize how extraordinary she is more than anything else.

The beauty so many recognized on the outside was a mere fraction of her internal beauty, only to be outdone by an unwavering spirit that allowed her to persevere against all the odds.

[22:55:01]

Phyllis George was 70 years old. May she rest in peace and may her memory be a blessing.

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