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The Situation Room
Interview With Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro; Interview With Former Acting CDC Director, Dr. Richard Besser; Trump And Biden Prepare To Debate; Coronavirus' Second Wave; Trump Pressures Barr To Investigate Bidens As Election Nears; NIH Director Says, It's Just Not Safe For Family Thanksgiving Gatherings; One-On-One With Debate Commission Co-Chair. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired October 20, 2020 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM.
We're following the surging second wave of the coronavirus and the run-up to one of the most consequential elections in U.S. history.
Tonight, the death to is nearing 221,000, with more than 8.2 million confirmed cases and counting. President Trump will soon appear at a campaign rally in one of the states seeing cases spike now. That would be Pennsylvania. It's a critical battleground state in the fight for the 270 electoral votes needed to win the election exactly two weeks from today.
We're also counting down to the final debate between the president and the former Vice President Joe Biden. That's a little over 48 hours from now.
President Trump suggesting he may -- repeat -- may change his strategy after his many interruptions threw the first debate into chaos. But a Biden adviser said the Democrat is preparing for Mr. Trump to once again bully and deflect.
Let's start our coverage this hour with our White House correspondent, Kaitlan Collins, who is covering tonight's Trump rally in Erie, Pennsylvania.
Kaitlan, before the president left for that rally, he abruptly ended a television interview. Tell us what happened.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Wolf.
It's an interesting closing message that the president is making to voters with these last two weeks to go before the election, because just this week alone, the president has preemptively attacked the moderator of Thursday night's debate. He's gone after another reporter yesterday on the tarmac for not asking more about the unsubstantiated story about Joe Biden's son. And now, today, he's criticizing Lesley Stahl of CBS News, after we
were told by sources he abruptly ended an interview they were doing earlier and not going on with scheduled interviews with the vice president that he was supposed to do for "60 Minutes" ahead of that airing on Sunday night, as the president is basically lashing out at every reporter that he sees.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes, I'm going to Erie, Pennsylvania today, which is -- which I love.
K. COLLINS (voice-over): Tonight, President Trump will rally supporters in the key battleground state of Pennsylvania, where his poll numbers have dropped as coronavirus cases have surged.
TRUMP: We're in the middle of a battle that we have to win.
K. COLLINS: First lady Melania Trump was supposed to join Trump in Pennsylvania for her first public appearance since getting coronavirus. But she canceled hours beforehand because of what her chief of staff said was a lingering cough.
TRUMP: The rallies are rallies like in history.
K. COLLINS: Despite signs the U.S. is headed toward another coronavirus peak, the president has continued to hold large rallies while attacking Dr. Anthony Fauci following his interview with "60 Minutes."
TRUMP: But he did say something, that we kept him off television. And yet we allowed him to do "60 Minutes" the other night. He couldn't do it without our approval. So, how do we keep him off television, but, by the way, do "60 Minutes"?
Look, he's a nice guy. The only thing I say is, he's a little bit sometimes not a team player.
K. COLLINS: Trump and Fauci rarely come face to face anymore, and the director of the National Institutes of Health, Dr. Francis Collins, says the president is mainly getting his COVID-19 updates from other sources.
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: I think the president primarily is getting his information from the vice president, from Dr. Atlas.
K. COLLINS: Trump's trip to Pennsylvania comes one day after a deadlocked Supreme Court let a ruling stand that would allow Pennsylvania to count mail-in ballots up to three days after Election Day, a major win for Democrats that Trump criticized today, while his third pick for the Supreme Court awaits a confirmation vote.
TRUMP: We got a ruling yesterday that was ridiculous, where they can count ballots after the elections is over. We got a strange ruling from the Supreme Court yesterday. That was very strange. K. COLLINS: In the final days before the election, President Trump is
attempting to use the power of the federal government to benefit him by calling on Attorney General Bill Barr to launch an investigation into Biden.
TRUMP: He's got to act, and he's got to act fast. He's got to appoint somebody. This is major corruption. And this has to be known about before the election.
K. COLLINS: Without basis, Trump now regularly labeled his political opponent a criminal.
TRUMP: And, as far as I'm concerned, the Biden family is a criminal enterprise.
K. COLLINS: The president says he will still show up in Nashville Thursday for the next presidential debate, after the commission that organizes them announced that both candidates' microphones will be muted for parts of the debate, in hopes of making it more coherent than the last one.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: He made a statement about the military. He said I said something about the military.
K. COLLINS: Now, at the beginning of each segment, Trump and Biden will have two minutes to answer the question, while the other's audio feed is turned off.
TRUMP: There's nothing fair about this debate, but that's OK.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[18:05:00]
K. COLLINS: And, Wolf, this morning, in that interview, the president also said that he wanted to do perhaps a bigger coronavirus relief bill than even what House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has put on the table, even as Senate Republicans have been incredibly cautious at -- to say the least, on that.
And the president said he was confident he could get them on board. But, Wolf, it does not seem to be the case, because Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said at lunch that there was no appetite, little to no appetite, for any kind of big stimulus bill to happen before the election, at least not really logistically -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Lots at stake on that front as well.
Kaitlan Collins, reporting for us, thank you.
Now the second wave of the coronavirus crisis here in the United States and a new warning about what to expect in the days ahead.
CNN's Brian Todd is joining us. Brian, so what are we hearing about a rapid acceleration in cases?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, Wolf.
Just a short time ago, a former FDA commissioner, Dr. Scott Gottlieb, said he believes the U.S. is about a week away from what he called a rapid acceleration in COVID-19 cases. That's a serious warning.
The number of cases, hospitalizations and deaths has gone up in just way too many areas across the United States. And health experts say there really is no backstop for it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (voice-over): At this nursing home in Northwestern Kansas, an unmitigated disaster; 100 percent of its residents, 62 people, have tested positive for the coronavirus, county health officials say, and 10 residents have died.
DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: In congregate settings, like nursing homes, this is a disease that could spread like wildfire. And this, in fact, is what we have seen before in nursing homes and, tragically, what we're seeing in this nursing home in Kansas as well.
TODD: Kansas is one of 31 states trending upward in new coronavirus cases tonight. Only one state, Hawaii, is dropping.
And 16 states, nearly a third of the country, are experiencing their highest seven-day averages for new cases since the pandemic began. One expert says the next four or five months may be the worst period of the entire pandemic.
DR. PETER HOTEZ, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: We're at about 70,000 new cases a day probably by next week or the week after. We could be looking at a doubling of the number of deaths by the week after the inauguration.
TODD: Dr. Peter Hotez says things will get better by next summer, but that Americans have to get ready for some horrible numbers in the meantime and hang on.
In Illinois, one of the states trending up in cases, officials say almost every region in the state has seen an increase in COVID-related hospitalizations over the last week, and tighter restrictions on gatherings are coming.
STEVE BRANDY, SPOKESMAN, WILL COUNTY, ILLINOIS, HEALTH DEPARTMENT: It didn't happen by itself. People are being careless. People are getting cocky. People are thinking, it's not going to happen to me, it's over. No, that is all wrong.
TODD: The Williamsburg section of Brooklyn in New York City is not in a so-called red zone of coronavirus hot spots there, but state officials barred a planned gathering in that neighborhood for the wedding of the grandson of an Orthodox Jewish rabbi, a gathering where they say up to 10,000 people were expected to attend. JUDITH HARRISON, NEW YORK ASSISTANT POLICE CHIEF: We don't want to
disrespect anybody. People are allowed to gather, but within reason. We want to make sure that there are no large gatherings in excess of 50 people.
TODD: As communities fight off outbreaks, the race for a vaccine gets more intense. The British government is planning to conduct the first so-called human challenge studies, where healthy volunteers are deliberately infected with the virus and some receive an experimental vaccine.
China says nearly 60,000 people have been injected with experimental vaccines during its phase three clinical trials, while, in the U.S., the health and human services secretary says officials hope to have enough vaccine by late March or early April to vaccinate everyone in America who wants one.
But a leading vaccine expert puts that timetable a bit later.
DR. PAUL OFFIT, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: Early next year, you will start to see these vaccines rolling out to the highest-risk groups first, and then, by the middle of next year, the end of next year, hopefully, we will get getting it more to the general public.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: And we have this just in a short time ago, an order from the Washtenaw County, Michigan, Health Department. Undergraduate students at the University of Michigan are now under an immediate stay-in-place order, that coming from the local county, the Washtenaw County Health Department, because that department has just learned that University of Michigan students account for 60 percent of the COVID-19 cases in that local area around the town of Ann Arbor, Michigan.
This order is in place until Election Day, Wolf. Officials there saying the situation in that town especially related to the students is now critical. They're under a stay-in-place order. They can't go anywhere, except to class, to dining halls, or to do work that cannot be done remotely.
BLITZER: A stay-in-place order for two weeks. We will see what happens at the University of Michigan.
All right, Brian, thank you very much for.
Joining us now, Dr. Richard Besser, the former acting director over at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Dr. Besser, thank you so much for joining us.
Things clearly are heading in the wrong direction right now here in the United States. As you heard the former FDA Commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb says, we're only a week away from potentially seeing a rapid acceleration of new cases. Some experts are actually warning, these next few months could be the worst of this entire pandemic.
[18:10:18]
Do you agree with those assessments?
DR. RICHARD BESSER, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: Well, I think, Wolf, a lot depends on how we react and respond to this as a nation.
As we're getting into colder weather, the virus will do better. Respiratory viruses like cold weather. They like periods with lower humidity. As it gets colder, we're having more indoor activity. We're going to be seeing kids returning home from college and bringing what's going on in their local areas.
So, it depends how we respond. If public health is charged with investigating what's going on, and takes actions, makes recommendations, and we take actions based on that, then the rise will be blunted somewhat.
What were you were hearing about what's going on at the University of Michigan is a response to the fact that the students they're driving that. So you make a change. The more you can investigate each one of these rises in each locality, and respond to it directly, the better chance there is of blunting this.
The national numbers, when you look at that map with all the red, it looks terrible. But that -- those red colors are really the accumulation of what's happening in each little community. And that's where it needs to be addressed.
BLITZER: Dr. Besser, despite these very, very concerning trends that we're seeing all around the country, Dr. Fauci says he doesn't think a nationwide lockdown will be necessary.
If lockdowns are off the table, what steps should we be taking right now to get through what most of the experts are suggesting will be a very, very difficult next few months?
BESSER: Yes, I think Dr. Fauci was saying the exact thing that I just said, which is, you have to -- a total national lockdown is not the way you approach this.
You look at what's going on in each area. So, if it's a state where the governor is saying, well, we're not going to close bars and restaurants and you don't need to wear masks, well, if the numbers are going up, you need to close your bars and restaurants and people need to wear masks.
If it's a state where the numbers have been going down and they're starting to trend up, if you can figure out which communities that's taking place in, making sure that the testing is available everywhere, and people have the resources to address this, you don't need to do a broad-brush lockdown.
The more targeted you can be, the more you're going to be able to get past all this pandemic fatigue, which is leading a lot of people who are doing the right thing to start to slip and not do everything they used to do.
BLITZER: Dr. Besser, thank you so much for joining us.
BESSER: Thanks, Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, just ahead, we're tracking record-breaking turnout for early voting here in the United States and legal battles that could impact the election outcome.
And is a debate rule aimed at limiting interruptions by President Trump, is it fair?
I will speak with the Presidential Debates Commission co-chair Frank Fahrenkopf. He's standing by live.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:17:28]
BLITZER: We're following more breaking news here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Tonight, senior homeland security officials are urging voters to have patience just ahead of the -- of Election Day two weeks from now, and they're warning that results likely will not be known on November 3, this as early voting breaks all sorts of records.
CNN Political Correspondent, Abby Phillip has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN GRAHAM, PENNSYLVANIA VOTER: Don't procrastinate, and vote early.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Just two weeks to go, and it appears that's the way many Americans are feeling about this 2020 election.
LATINA WILLIAMS, WISCONSIN VOTER: I would rather get it done -- done and over with, and do it early. That way, I know I have voted.
PHILLIP: So far, more than 32 million ballots have been cast nationwide, whether by mail or in-person.
On the first day of in-person voting in Wisconsin, voters braving hours-long lines and rising COVID numbers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you don't come and do it, you don't have a right to complain. Come and voice your opinion. That's what America is about.
PHILLIP: Huge lines snaking around entire buildings or down city blocks becoming a familiar sight all over the country, many voters even lining up before sunrise, rain or shine.
Pending legal challenges in several states, including some battleground states, are far from over. DAN PETRY, WISCONSIN VOTER: It's one of the most important elections,
obviously. There's so much riding on the line.
PHILLIP: In Pennsylvania, the Supreme Court ruling on Monday the state can count mail-in ballots if they're sent in by Election Day and received within three days, even if they do not have a legible postmark, something the president is already attacking.
TRUMP: We got a ruling yesterday that was ridiculous, where they can count ballots after the election is over. What kind of a thing? So what does that mean?
QUESTION: John Roberts.
TRUMP: We're going to wait -- we're going to wait until after November 3 and start announcing states? That's crazy.
PHILLIP: Pennsylvania state law says that the counting of absentee ballots cannot begin until Election Day, which, combined with the court ruling allowing ballots to be received three days after Election Day, means we may not know the results of the presidential race for several days after November 3.
JOSH SHAPIRO (D), PENNSYLVANIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: You won't have the precise number, certainly, for a few days. But I think you're going to have a real good sense of where things are going.
PHILLIP: Meanwhile, in North Carolina, the state elections board now extending the deadline to accept mail-in ballots postmarked by Election Day through November 12, more than a week after the election.
But the legal battle is still ongoing. As of this morning, in North Carolina, 1.9 million ballots have been cast. That represents 25 percent of the state's registered voters. And in Florida, voters are turning out in droves on the first day of early in-person voting.
The state says more than 366,000 Floridians cast votes Monday. By this morning, Florida was just shy of three million ballots cast overall. The same time four years ago, Florida had just over 1.6 million total ballots cast.
[18:20:22]
TRACY ALSTON-BUNN, PENNSYLVANIA VOTER: If you're not going to vote, don't complain for the next four years. That's the way I look at it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP: And while we have heard some concerns from some voters that they don't trust the mail system, take the state of Michigan, for example.
We are seeing them using the mail-in voting system in record numbers. The state's governor, Gretchen Whitmer, said three million ballots have been requested. About half of those have been returned already two weeks before the Election Day. And that's compared to 4.6 million ballots that were cast in all of
the 2016 election. Whitmer says that Michigan is on track to have more voters voting in this election than ever before -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Interesting.
All right, Abby, thank you, Abby Phillip reporting for us.
Joining us now, the attorney general of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro.
Attorney General, thank you so much for joining us.
As you're well aware, Pennsylvania is a critically important battleground state in this election. So, what will this U.S. Supreme Court decision mean for the timing of election results? When can we expect to know who won the presidential election in Pennsylvania?
SHAPIRO: Well, Wolf, the Supreme Court ruling gives us clarity, and it should give the voters confidence that they can vote, whether they vote in-person November 3, or whether they vote by mail ahead of time.
And if they vote by mail, the importance of this Supreme Court ruling is as follows. They can drop their ballot off in a drop box. Donald Trump and his enablers were trying to do away with drop boxes.
By the way, 40 states rely on drop boxes. And the second thing is, is, as long as their ballot is postmarked by Election Day, and received by Friday after the election, it'll be counted.
Look, we have had a president of the United States who's led an assault on our laws here in Pennsylvania and tried to discourage people from voting. And what the Supreme Court did last night was make very clear that they want these votes to be counted, they want clarity in this process.
And we want to assure all Pennsylvanians that their legal eligible votes will be counted, notwithstanding the noise coming from the president.
BLITZER: It's so, so critically important, and so many people don't want to wait in long lines because of the coronavirus pandemic. They want to just drop off their ballot, if possible.
The extended deadline, Attorney General, will likely lead to a dramatic -- and we have already seen this -- a dramatic increase in mail-in ballots that your state receives.
Do you have the bandwidth to count all these votes and do it quickly and accurately?
SHAPIRO: The clerks do have the bandwidth. I think they learned a lot from the primary process, which was really the first time Pennsylvania was able to use vote by mail.
And I will break it down for you. About six million people voted in the last presidential election. About three million have already requested their ballots through the mail. And more than a million have already been returned.
And while state law doesn't allow those clerks to begin processing those ballots until Election Day, I think you will find, by the real early morning hours of Wednesday, right after the election, between a combination of what votes are outstanding and what party they're from, along with all the votes that have already been tallied from the precincts, I think you will have a pretty good sense of where Pennsylvania is heading.
Certainly, we won't have a final number until later in the week, but I think you will have a pretty good sense of where things are going on election morning.
BLITZER: It's going to be a dramatic night, I'm sure, for all of us and probably a few days afterwards.
The president is in your state tonight for a rally in Erie, Pennsylvania. We're only seeing some masks, very little, if any, social distancing. Pennsylvania, as you well know, Attorney General, just reported its 15th day in a row with more than 1,000 new coronavirus cases.
Are you attempting to enforce any public health measures at all during the president's political event later tonight?
SHAPIRO: That enforcement is left to the governor and local law enforcement. So I will leave it to them to comment on that.
But I will tell you, it is just the height of recklessness and irresponsibility, by the way, for a guy who had COVID, who knows how serious this is. Yet he wants to pretend that the virus doesn't exist to suit some ridiculous political aim of his, a political claim, by the way, that's not working.
People are on to him. They recognize that 220,000 Americans have died, thousands here in Pennsylvania died and sick, because this president failed to get this pandemic under control, because he refused to listen to the experts, and now is even attacking Dr. Fauci, the expert.
And for him to bring this to Pennsylvania and create this type of chaos in Erie, an amazing community, and potentially sicken other people, the way he has in other states, should be enough for voters to make a thoughtful decision about who's best to lead this country forward, certainly not someone who ignores science and puts lives at jeopardy, which is exactly what he's doing in Erie, Pennsylvania, tonight.
[18:25:21]
BLITZER: It is so, so worrisome.
The attorney general of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro, thank you so much for joining us.
SHAPIRO: Good to be with you, Wolf. Thanks. BLITZER: Thank you.
Just ahead: President Trump demands that the attorney general of the United States, Bill Barr, launch an immediate investigation of Hunter Biden. I will talk about it with the president's former National Security Adviser John Bolton.
There you see him. He's standing by live.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:30:00]
BLITZER: Tonight, with the elections here in the United States just two weeks away, President Trump is turning up the heat at his attorney general, William Barr, pressuring him to investigate Joe Biden and his son, Hunter Biden.
Joining us now to discuss this and more, the former Trump national security adviser, John Bolton. He is the author of the new book, a best-selling book, The Room Where it Happened, A White House Memoir. Ambassador Bolton, thank you so much for joining us.
The president said today that the attorney general, Bill Barr, needs to, quote, act fast, to investigate what he calls Joe Biden's major corruption. The president seems to have the mistaken view that these government agencies exist simply to deliver him a campaign boost in these final days. Does that come as any surprise to you at all given the very close working relationship you had with the president when you were his national security adviser?
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Now, sad to say, it's par for the course. And just to give you one example that I cite in the book, we couldn't have a discussion on the Iran nuclear weapons program without Trump saying to anybody who was in the room that John Kerry needed to be prosecuted under the Logan Act for talking to the Iranians about the state of play on the program.
You know, it was a joke after awhile but it's the best, you can say, the most benign thing, you can say about it, it it's totally non- presidential. And, really, it's a failure both of leadership and of character.
BLITZER: How inappropriate is it though for the president of the United States to publicly be, you know, telling the attorney general, you better open this investigation into the Bidens with only two weeks left in this election? In other words, open a criminal investigation against the man who is running against him.
BOLTON: Yes. You know, the president doesn't seem to understand that he's both head of government and head of state. And whether he likes it or not he ought to act like a president for all Americans. That lesson got lost somewhere in the transition and he's never done it.
But beyond that, you know, it's I think unique in our history. It used to be when presidents abuse their power and abuse the legal process, they did it privately. Trump does it publicly, and it's hard to get people excited about it.
It really is a phenomenon that he has created. There's a lot to complain about in this country but he has taken it to a new low to be able to say this in public and have people kind of ho hum about it.
BLITZER: It sort of reminds me the president asking the attorney general to open a criminal investigation against the man running against him. It sort of mirrors what he asked of the Ukrainian government last year. He got impeach over that. So why does he keep resorting to this playbook?
BOLTON: Well, as I said, I think it is a failure of character and leadership. Donald Trump is not really able in most instances to carry on discussions about policy. When he disagrees with somebody, when he sees somebody as an adversary, it immediately becomes personal. That's the only thing he understands. And in the case here of Joe Biden, it's immediately go right to send him to jail.
And I think it shows that the president doesn't fully understand the nature of civil life in the United States. But I think it also reflects the sort of low cunning that exemplifies his thinking. He just can't even disagree with Biden in a civil way. He wants to send him to jail.
And I think this is an issue voters should consider, agree or disagree with their respective platforms. Is this the kind of person you want your children to see as president of the United States?
BLITZER: Yes. You hear about these kinds of things going on in other countries over the years around the world, launch criminal investigations against your political rivals. But it's pretty extraordinary to see it unfolding here in the United States.
We know Rudy Giuliani, Ambassador Bolton, has been involved in pushing these various smears against Joe Biden and his son, Hunter Biden. On Sunday, I spoke with the former secretary of Homeland Security, Jeh Johnson. He had this message for Rudy Giuliani. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEH JOHNSON, FORMER SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: My message to Rudy, frankly, is, think about your legacy after your public life is over. Do you want to be remembered as America's mayor do you want to be remembered as someone seen possibly as a useful idiot for the Russian government? So it's sad and pathetic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Useful idiot. That's a phrase we all learned back in high school and college about what was going on during the McCarthy era and all of that.
[18:35:05]
Do you agree that Giuliani is being used as what Jeh Johnson is now calling Putin's useful idiot? BOLTON: Well, I think this has all the earmarks of a Russian Soviet- era style agent of influence campaign. Rudy is obviously close to the president. This is something that any intelligence service that is hostile to the United States would want to try and exploit. And it looks to me like that's exactly what they're doing.
If this kind of information about Hunter Biden came to a legitimate U.S. intelligence service, it would undoubtedly be given a very stiff counterintelligence scrub to see if it was planted, to see if it was information that had been created for that purpose. That obviously didn't happen here.
And I think it's important for people to speak up on this, and some have. Now, they're doing it for their own political purposes. But make no mistake about it, when you have a president who allows this to happen and, in fact, who encourages his private sector supporters to go out and do it, nobody should be surprised when our adversaries take advantage of it.
BLITZER: Well, do you think Giuliani is a useful idiot?
BOLTON: Well, you know, I don't want to get into that kind of characterization. I've said before I thought it was a hand grenade who was going to blow everybody up. So I'm not sure I can top that. I just wish he had paid more attention to the people he was dealing with and checked it out. But I think Trump undoubtedly put a lot of pressure on him to come up with stuff. I'm not sure we've seen the end of whatever they've come up with. I'm sure there's more coming.
BLITZER: John Bolton, Ambassador, thank you so much for joining us.
BOLTON: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. And his book, by the way, once again, is entitled, The Room Where It Happened. There you see it.
Just ahead, we're going to return to the coronavirus pandemic as one of the nation's leading health officials now says it's just not safe for his family to gather for Thanksgiving.
Plus, the Debate Commission announces a new plan to mute candidate microphones after that chaotic first contest. But will it really make a difference? Well be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:40:00]
BLITZER: As new coronavirus cases are surging across the United States, the director of the National Institutes of Health now said it's just not safe to gather with his family for Thanksgiving this year.
Let's discuss with CNN Medical Analyst, Dr. Leana Wen, she's an Emergency Room Physician, a former Baltimore City Health Commissioner. Dr. Wen, thank you so much for joining us. Let's listen to the NIH Director, Dr. Francis Collins, explain his decision.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, NIH DIRECTOR: I had to have a family Zoom call with my family on Sunday and conclude that for the first time in 27 years, there will be no family Thanksgiving. It is just not safe to take that kind of chance with people coming from different parts of the country of uncertain status. The problem with this disease is it is so easy for people to be infected and not know it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: So, Dr. Wen, do Americans need to put their holiday traditions aside this year in favor of public health or are there ways to limit to risks while modifying how we celebrate?
DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Well, Wolf, families are going to be faced with some really difficult decisions ahead. And I hope that people will keep in mind the following, first, that there is this virus that is surging out of control in many parts of the country. And at the rate that we're going, it's going to look much worse before it gets any better. And it will be worse come Thanksgiving time.
The other is that if the small gatherings, indoors with family and friends, that's actually driving the surge. And as Dr. Collins was saying, there is a high level of asymptomatic spread. And I am sure that none of us want to be inadvertently infecting those we love. And so I would say let's celebrate outdoors. Not indoors this holiday.
If you really want to get together indoors, you should quarantine -- everybody should quarantine themselves for 14 days and get tested, which would substantially reduce the risk. But that's something that is not really practical for many people. And so I think we will have a lot of virtual celebrations this year recognizing that this is not for forever but we need to get through this winter safely.
BLITZER: We got to be safe, absolutely. What do you recommend for families, Dr. Wen, with, let's say, college-aged students who've been away at school. Can those members of the family safely travel home this holiday season?
WEN: So, it depends on the length of staying. If it's only going to be four or five days that they're coming back, I would say it's probably not worth it, especially because so many college campuses have had outbreaks. And it's also difficult for students to quarantine themselves prior to coming back.
But many colleges also are going to be letting out. Their semester going to be ending at Thanksgiving and the students have to come back. If that's the case, and in particular, if there are vulnerable individuals living in the same household, they should come back, quarantine themselves for 14 days, then get tested. And in that time, they can see their family members and loved ones outdoors but spaced at least six feet apart. And again, I know that sounds like a lot but we need to get through this year. Next year is going to be very different. Hopefully, we'll have a vaccine. We'll have many therapeutics but we have to get through this winter.
BLITZER: Yes, a lot of those college-aged students, they maybe being asymptomatic, they may not have a clue that they have coronavirus but they could clearly pass it on to their parents or they're grandparents or others. That's a deep, deep concern.
[18:45:01]
Dr. Leana Wen, thank you so much for joining us. Always appreciate having you here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
WEN: Thanks very much.
BLITZER: All right. Just ahead, after the constant interruptions that plagued the first presidential debate, a new plan will mute candidates microphones for parts of the next contest. I'll speak with the co- chair of the Commission on Presidential Debates, Frank Fahrenkopf. He's standing by live. We'll discuss that change and more when we come back.
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[18:50:07]
BLITZER: In the wake of the chaotic first presidential debate between Donald Trump and Joe Biden, the Debate Commission says it will mute candidate microphones during portions of the final contest Thursday night.
Let's discuss with Frank Fahrenkopf, the co-chair of the Commission on Presidential Debates.
Frank, thank you so much for joining us.
How will this microphone muting process work? And what makes the commission confident will this ensure a less chaotic debate than the first one?
FRANK FAHRENKOPF, CO-CHAIRMAN, COMMISSION ON PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES: Well, you know, Wolf, there's no question that the first debate was a disappointment for everybody, and I think particularly for the American people who were tuning in to see where the candidates stood on the issues.
So the commission was very, very careful here. We issued the rules for the first and last debate in June of this year, and both candidates accepted the rules. As you know, the 90 minutes is divided into six sections, the moderator, solely the moderator. The commission has nothing to do with it, the names, subject matter of each section.
Now, they also agreed as part of the format that for the first four minutes of each of these six sections, each of them would get to speak for two minutes uninterrupted. No interruptions whatsoever. Well, that didn't work at the first debate in Cleveland --
BLITZER: Yeah.
FAHRENKOPF: -- because as you know, there were a lot of interruptions. And to be fair, it was on both sides on occasions.
So we as a commission knew we couldn't change rules without the consent of both. But our thought is that by saying to the candidates, as we did, in our release yesterday, after we consider all this, that what's going to happen is when the moderator asks candidate number one to begin their two minutes to talk uninterrupted, the other candidate's mic will not be live. It'd just be the person who was speaking for the two minutes.
When those two minutes are up, that then there's the other -- candidate B's chance to talk, his microphone will come on and the other one will go off.
Now, that -- after the four minutes is over, the microphones are open totally, and the moderator then can, you know, proceed to ask questions and get answers. And then we get to the next section.
BLITZER: And then have 11 minutes after that.
(CROSSTALK)
FAHRENKOPF: So, that's the way we're going. That's right.
BLITZER: Yeah, go ahead, finish.
FAHRENKOPF: Go ahead.
Well, I'm saying so what we're doing here is we're not making a new rule. We're just enforcing the rule that both candidates agreed to in the first place.
BLITZER: Right.
As you know, the president has been very critical of you and the rest of the commission in light of this decision to mute microphones during part of the debate saying, and I'm quoting him now, these are not good people. This commission, he says, a lot of funny things go on with them.
What's your response to the bitter, very angry criticism he's leveling against you and your colleagues on the commission?
FAHRENKOPF: Listen, it's a political season. We know it's a political season. This is a hard-fought campaign.
And, you know, I've been at this a long, long time, so I've had a lot of things said about me over that period of time. We are -- we work very hard as a commission. We take it extremely importantly, we consider everything purportedly and we never do it to favor one candidate over the other. As I've often said, we all have our USA hats on when we're making these decisions. And we think that this decision is in the best interest of the people
of the United States to hear these two candidates, at least for that period of time without any interruption, as to where they stand on the issues that are so important today.
BLITZER: Final quick question, are you going to test both candidates for the coronavirus before the debate?
FAHRENKOPF: Yes. The testing will be done. HCA, which has been designated to be the health group in Nashville, I think it's Health Corporation of America, designated by the Cleveland Clinic. We'll be meeting with and working with the doctors for the White House and for former Vice President Biden.
BLITZER: Will everyone except for the candidates and moderator have to wear masks during the course of those 90 minutes?
FAHRENKOPF: Yes. In order to get in the hall, you will have to have a mask and have to have been tested. The ticket says that you will comply with all medical protocols. And one of them is you must wear a mask all the way through and can't take it off.
Now, you may remember that in Nashville -- excuse me, Cleveland, we're going to Nashville. In Cleveland, we had some of the first family remove their masks and not wear the masks. Both candidates have now agreed, their campaigns, that everyone will leave their masks on for the whole --
BLITZER: Good.
FAHRENKOPF: -- if there's first family there, I'm not sure at this point in time, and will not take the masks off.
There was some disagreement that may have been fair with regard to whether some people were wearing masks that were favoring one candidate over the other. That's been now resolved. Both candidates have committed that their guests will wear their masks throughout.
BLITZER: As they should.
Frank Fahrenkopf, good luck to you. Good luck to everyone. Thank you so much for everything you guys are doing. We're grateful.
And we'll have more news right after this.
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[18:59:25]
BLITZER: Finally, our nightly tribute to the victims of the coronavirus pandemic.
Fareeda Kadwani of New York was 75. She was a mother of two and a teacher for more than 20 years. Her daughter says she took great pride in her Indian heritage with cooking, clothes and jewelry she brought home from her trips to India every year. Annie Mildred Young Rice of Mississippi was 59 years old. A member of
the church choir, she loved when her son and four grandchildren and the entire family when they were all together. Her sister says her laugh was loud and infectious and heart was full of love.
May they rest in peace. And may their memories be a blessing.
"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.
