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The Situation Room

Trump Spends Weekend Golfing and Promoting Election Chaos Amid COVID Surge; Interview with Representative Adam Kinzinger (R-IL) about Trump's Refusal to Concede; Interview with Former Secretary Arne Duncan about His Own Battle with COVID; President-Elect Joe Biden to Deliver Remarks on Economy; Trump Puts Giuliani in Charge of Post- Election Legal Fight; Some Trump Supporters Say They're Done with FOX News. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired November 15, 2020 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[20:00:17]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. This is a special edition of THE SITUATION ROOM.

There's breaking news we're following. The coronavirus spiking and surging in the world's most infected country whose president is apparently more concerned with spreading absurd conspiracies and pure fiction about why he lost the election.

We're talking about the United States of America where just today the truly awful number, 11 million, was reached. That's how many people here in the United States are or have been infected by the coronavirus. Eleven million men, women and children, in the United States. The most infections of any country in the world.

We will go live to the White House in just a few moments to talk about how much President Trump has addressed and responded to this horrific news today amid spiraling infections and record numbers of American deaths from COVID-19. But the short answer is this. Not a word today from the president about the deadly pandemic. But much from him about alleged rigged elections, -- they were not rigged -- and the news media that he believes doesn't like him.

But first, let's assess what the administration is still doing weeks away from taking charge of the White House. We're talking about the incoming administration, the President-elect Joe Biden and his transition team making the coronavirus pandemic an extremely high priority. So far not getting much of any official cooperation from current Trump administration experts.

Dr. Anthony Fauci, the nation's top infectious disease expert, tells CNN that he would like to see the incoming and outgoing health officials start working together immediately.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Of course it would be better if we could start working with them. The period of measured in several weeks to months is really important in a smooth handing over of the information as well as -- it's almost like passing the baton in a race. You don't want to stop and then give it to somebody. You want to just essentially keep going and that's what transition is. So it certainly would make things more smoothly if we could do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right. Let's go to the White House right now. Jeremy Diamond is on the scene for us.

Jeremy, the president today signaled he's coming to terms with the outcome of the election. He signaled it for a few minutes. Then he quickly walked away from that. He's still refusing to concede. He continues to blame his loss on a string of conspiracy theories. Give us the latest information. What are you learning?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It was a very, very brief acknowledgement of reality, Wolf, that lasted only two words contained in a tweet that had a multitude of conspiracy theories and lies and baseless allegations about the 2020 election. But in those two words, the president said he won, referring to Joe Biden, before then saying that Joe Biden only won because of a rigged election.

And then a couple of hours later, the president making very clear that that was nothing close to the concession that some Republicans had begun to analyze this tweet as being. The president saying, I concede nothing, and making very clear that he intends to continue to try and contest the results of this 2020 election.

And, Wolf, it was reflective of what we've seen from the president over the last week or more accurately what our sources have been telling us, which is that the president at times begins to acknowledge the reality that this election is lost, that Joe Biden will be the next president, and then at other moments, he's urging his allies to go out and make the case for him and to continue pressing forward with these lawsuits.

Right now it seems like that's where we are stuck. The president making very clear that he wants to continue pressing forward with this case, continuing to make these baseless allegations on Twitter. Even as election officials across the country, Republicans and Democrats as well as the cybersecurity agency within the U.S. government, making very clear that there is no evidence of widespread voter fraud, and in fact the 2020 election may be the most secure to date.

And beyond that, Wolf, the president, while he is making the case on contesting the 2020 election, he is ignoring the reality of this explosion of cases of coronavirus that we have seen over the last couple of weeks. More than a million cases just in the last six days. And yet the president, while he was happy on Friday to take credit for some of the progress that we are seeing on the vaccine front, we haven't heard anything from him in terms of what Americans should be doing right now and what the federal government is doing right now to try and mitigate this disaster that is happening right now in the U.S.

BLITZER: You know, Jeremy, it's interesting because this morning he tweeted he won, referring to Biden, he won because the election was rigged. But then very quickly, I guess he realized maybe from his perspective he made a mistake. He then tweeted he only won in the eyes of the fake news media. I concede nothing. We have a long way to go. This was a rigged election.

[20:05:01]

What are officials behind the scenes saying about that initial statement when he wrote those two words, he won?

DIAMOND: Well, some Republicans in Washington and across the country were happy to begin to interpret that as the beginning of a concession from the president. We saw Governor Asa Hutchinson was on another program this morning and he said that he thought this was maybe the beginning of the president conceding the election. And I think that it's that chatter, frankly, that got the president to put out that subsequent tweet a couple of hours later to make very clear that that is not what he is doing.

And in fact, in a tweet just a few hours ago, Wolf, the president making clear that the former New York City Rudy Giuliani, who is now leading his legal team in terms of contesting the election, that they will be filing new lawsuits in the coming days despite the fact that we have seen the lawsuits filed by the president's campaign and his allies over the last several days, they have been all but laughed out of the courts, Wolf.

And these lawyers for the campaign and for other Republican outfits, they've been unwilling or unable frankly to provide any concrete evidence of voter fraud. Instead, judges in many of these cases have said that some of these affidavits they're providing amount to nothing more than hearsay. And again, the overwhelming consensus by election officials, including by the Cybersecurity Infrastructure Agency within the U.S. government have said there is no evidence of widespread voter fraud.

BLITZER: All right. Jeremy Diamond, over at the White House. I know you're working your sources. We'll get back to you.

Joining us now to discuss all of this, Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger of Illinois.

Congressman, thanks so much for joining us. Congratulations on your re-election. And thanks for coming in. There's a lot I want to discuss with you. Let me get your reaction to the president of the United States all these days after the election still refusing to concede, even though he is down by 5.5 million votes nationwide. They're still counting the votes, as you know, and he's way, way down in terms of the electoral college. How damaging is this right now, what's going on?

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): I think it has some real potential in the long-term to be damaging because it takes away from people's trust in an election system, in government. Right now we know our institutions of government are at a record low in terms of approval. And when you have a democracy where your vote is basically every two years, and four years for president, your only input in what the future of the government looks like, that can be really damaging.

I think it's -- the president of course we all know he has every right to pursue every legal avenue. But to deny President-elect Biden the opportunity to begin the transition, to get briefings, which he should be getting, anyway, I think is long-term damaging. For whatever reason, one of these lawsuits, you know, gets through and President Trump wins re-election, then there's no harm, no foul in this process.

But this is far bigger than a party, than a man, than anything. This is about a union that has a great 200 years of being able to do this. We need at least another couple hundred years more of it.

BLITZER: Why doesn't he just tell the General Services Administration, the GSA, go ahead, start the official transition process. Because lives are at stake. Let the experts -- the coronavirus experts who are working with the incoming administration meet with Dr. Fauci, Dr. Birx, Dr. Redfield, and get the latest information so that on January 20th when President-elect Biden takes office they know what's going on and they can save lives?

KINZINGER: Yes. I think he should. I mean, you know, again, if in his mind he has a chance to somehow win one of these court cases, what's been the harm in having somebody else involved? Maybe they have ideas you haven't thought of. This is just the right thing to do. You know, I think the president spends a lot of time looking at Twitter. And I think he looks at some of these conspiracy theories that pop up.

And if he says anything that seems like it may be a concession, then he sees the angry tweets, and he reverses course on that. This is about a democracy, though, in a handover of power which has been very much cornerstone to the success that we've had in America. And I've gotten to the point now where I can look at this and say, again, every legal challenge you think you have, fine, pursue it. But this is about something far bigger. There's always an election around the corner.

This is about something far bigger, which is the survival of the United States of America and the government as we know it in the long- term.

BLITZER: So, Congressman, if you had your way, what would you like the president of the United States to say? Let's say he goes into the Oval Office and delivers an address to the American people tomorrow night, what should he say?

KINZINGER: Well, I think the president, you know, can make it very clear, Republicans had a great night. The president outperformed his polling expectations. We gained seats in the House. We're probably going to hold the Senate, statehouses. There's a lot to be proud of. But it appears that the president came up short in running for re- election. It was record turnout for him and record turnout for President-elect Biden. So it's an opportunity -- I wish he would come out and say, look, we

still have these legal challenges we're going to pursue, but we're going to work as if President-elect Biden is actually president-elect, so that if in fact my legal challenges don't succeed, we can have a smooth transition.

[20:10:12]

Because, look, a lot -- I mean I had two friends today that just told me that they have COVID. It seems like it's spreading far faster than it did even in the spring. This is really important. These are real people's lives. And there's no harm whatsoever in saying the next administration needs to have a running start, if they can.

BLITZER: I want you to listen to what the former president Barack Obama said. He gave an interview. I want you to listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT: The president doesn't like to lose. And never admits loss. I'm more troubled by the fact that other Republican officials who clearly know better are going along with this, are humoring him in this fashion. It is one more step in delegitimizing not just the incoming Biden administration but democracy generally. And that's a dangerous path.

We would never accept that out of our kids behaving that way if they lost. All right? I mean, if my daughters in any kind of competition pouted and then accused the other side of cheating when they lost, when there was no evidence of it, we'd scold them. You know, I think that there has been this sense over the last several years that literally anything goes and is justified in order to get power. And that's not unique to the United States.

There are strong men and dictators around the world who think that I can do anything to stay in power. I can kill people. I can throw them in jail. I can run phony elections. I can suppress journalists. But that's not who we are supposed to be. And one of the signals, I think, that Joe Biden needs to send to the world is that, no, those values that we preached and we believed in and subscribed in, we still believe them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: So, Congressman Kinzinger, what's your reaction when you hear those words from the former president of the United States?

KINZINGER: I mean, it's a long sound bite. So, you know, I can't say I agree or disagree with all, some or none. But I will say, he's right in a point which is, you know, this is a cornerstone of who we are. As you know, Wolf, I pay a lot of attention to foreign policy and international policy. And we often travel to other countries that are struggling with democracy. And we use our example of how we can take, you know, two very bitter factions and hand over power.

We take the House or if, you know, we have a president from a different party. And the threat now is if we go and do that they're going to say, well, what about, you know, X, Y, Z, this election, for instance? This is -- and I would say this to my Republican friends especially. This is not about this moment. Right? This is about in 10 years, in 20 years, you know, what happens if a Democrat does the same thing?

Do you now have the moral authority to be outraged or did you give that up? The fact is, we can point fingers at each side. I can point -- say Democrats did something. The reality is we're in this moment now and this is essential that we as a nation get beyond what this -- you know, the issue du jour is and move ahead because, man, I hope to have kids someday and when I do, I want them to be raised in a country even better than the one I was raised in.

BLITZER: Yes. Excellent point. And I applaud you, Congressman, for doing something so simple, so factual, so accurate, simply referring to Joe Biden as president-elect. Why, though, are so many of your Republican colleagues refusing to do so? Are they afraid of the president? Why can't they simply acknowledge the fact that Joe Biden is now the president-elect of the United States?

KINZINGER: So somehow after this election, some of the Republican base, not all, but especially the ones that are loud on Twitter, believed that or were convinced that, by the way, so much misinformation on election day. That's a whole another segment we could do. But they were convinced that somehow referring to President Biden as president elect would end any legal challenge or would be accepting defeat.

You know, it's ludicrous. And quite honestly, I think Republican leaders -- it's one thing to take time to say let's see where the legal challenges go. I say that as well. I want all that to be exhausted. But we have a responsibility far beyond what the Twitter mobs say or what the hordes of angry people say on internet.

[20:15:06]

We have a responsibility to the Constitution of the United States that declares it in January that there's going to be, you know, a transition of power. And that's our responsibility now. Not to look at the angry retweets but to instead just do what's right for the country. Look, I run every two years. Trust me, there's an election around the corner and it probably started about a week ago.

BLITZER: And you, sir, served in the U.S. Air Force, you were in Iraq, Afghanistan. You fought, you risked your life for our country. We are grateful to you, Congressman Adam Kinzinger. Once again, congratulations on your reelection. Thanks for joining us. And thanks for speaking out.

This is such a critical time, the transition. It needs to -- the cooperation of the outgoing administration with the incoming administration on national security as well as health issues, the coronavirus, we see how many people -- there could be another 70,000 Americans dead between now and January 20th, unless this country gets its act together. All hands on deck. I think that is what's needed. Congressman Kinzinger, thanks so much for joining us.

KINZINGER: You bet, Wolf. See you.

BLITZER: All right. Good luck.

A stunning surge of cases across the United States in the past six days alone. Once again more than one million new cases have been reported. And now hospitals all around the country are warning they are running out of intensive care unit beds. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:20:36]

BLITZER: It's been just six days since the United States crossed the milestone of 10 million confirmed coronavirus cases. But get this. Six days later, tonight, more than 11 million Americans have tested positive. A million Americans came down with coronavirus in the past six days alone.

One of them, the former education secretary, Arne Duncan, who served under President Obama, revealing today on Twitter, and I'm quoting, he and his family have been battling the virus for 10 days. He says, "We are all in shape. We have what is considered mild cases and it has absolutely flattened us."

Secretary Arne Duncan is joining us now.

Mr. Secretary, thank you so much for joining us. So sad to hear you and your -- you know, your wife, your child, you all came down positive. You say you were tested on November 6th, diagnosed the next day. Tell us what has been going on and how you actually believe you may have gotten coronavirus.

ARNE DUNCAN, FORMER EDUCATION SECRETARY TO PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, first of all, Wolf, relative to so many other families, we're fortunate. We're lucky. Nobody is in the hospital. We are getting healthier by the day. And so, you know, count our blessings every single day. But as I said, I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. It's a wicked disease. It's, you know, nausea, headaches, fever, body aches. Just sheer exhaustion.

Not something anybody, you know, should go through or needs to go through. And I tried to tweet just to, you know, maybe a little bit revealing personally. And maybe your viewers won't agree or won't this, but I really just think people need to stay home for Thanksgiving this year. Wolf. I hate to say that. I never want to be Scrooge. But it's so scary out there now. And we tried to do everything right. We socially distance, we wore masks, and nobody in the house, you know, really tried to be very, very cautious. You know, since March. And unfortunately, it wasn't enough.

BLITZER: Well, tell us how you're feeling. Is there a sense you and the family are improving right now? Because, you know, obviously, I've known you for a long time. I'm worried about you and the entire family.

DUNCAN: No, no. I appreciate that, Wolf. We're absolutely improving. First couple of days, we realized were terrible, were really, really hard. The past couple of, you know, two, three days started, you know, slowly going in the right direction and it just -- it takes time. You can't rush it. I still don't have anywhere near the kind of energy I want to have. You know, still feeling far less my best. But again relative to so many others who are dealing with severe, severe illness and death, our family is actually very, very fortunate.

BLITZER: What were the symptoms that you initially had that convinced you it was time to go get tested?

DUNCAN: Well, it's the strangest thing. I've been working out every day and feeling really strong and feeling good, and trying to, you know, build up my strength in case this happened. You go from one day feeling fine to the next day, I can only say it feels like you got hit by a truck. You just feel absolutely flattened or feel like you ran a marathon. You feel like you ran a marathon and just no energy. So I knew. I mean, I knew. And, you know, the test just confirmed what I knew was the case.

BLITZER: Do you have any idea how you and the family contracted the virus?

DUNCAN: I don't. We've done contact tracing and just thank goodness nobody that we were in contact with seems to have gotten it from us, which I'm just so, so deeply thankful for. We just don't know. Again, you know, really tried to contain it, tried to really limit, you know, where we were, who we were with. You know, nothing indoors with people, no socializing. And so you just don't know.

I just think it's so prevalent now, you know, across the country, here in Illinois, Chicago. It feels like a tidal wave, like a tsunami coming. And we just sort of got caught in that.

BLITZER: You got to be really careful. Secretary Duncan, I want you to stay with us. I want to bring in CNN medical analyst, Dr. Rochelle Walensky. She's also the chief of the Division of the Infectious Diseases at Massachusetts General Hospital.

Dr. Walensky, thank you so much for joining us. You heard Secretary Duncan say he doesn't know how he and his family contracted the virus. Is it just becoming so prevalent right now that masking and social distancing, and I'm sure he and his family were doing that, might not necessarily be enough?

ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Good evening, Wolf. And I do want to extend my best wishes for a speedy recovery to the secretary and to his entire family. I think one of the things that's particularly scary is that what the secretary is describing is considered mild diseases.

[20:25:06]

But yes, to answer your question, I think there's so much disease circulating right now. You know, Dr. Fauci said -- you know, has been saying for months, if we don't get this down to 10,000 cases per day, 5,000 cases per day, when we get to the winter months, when we get to the fall and winter, we're going to have so much disease circulating that it will be the case that we will not know from whom we got it.

BLITZER: Because right now, if you look at the numbers, Dr. Walensky, the numbers are simply awful. In six days, a million Americans came down with coronavirus, including Secretary Duncan. I mean, it's awful. And the deaths are skyrocketing. Hospitalizations. How worried should we be? And hopefully, the Duncan family will not have to go into a hospital right now. But those hospitals, those ICU beds are filling up pretty quickly, aren't they, Dr. Walensky?

WALENSKY: They are. You know, the curve that you're showing of the cases is just pointing due north. What we haven't seen yet is the curve of deaths pointing due north. But it will follow. We know that the deaths will follow two to three weeks afterwards. You know, it's -- we've seen case counts of deaths or death counts that are in the 1,000 a day.

But what I really worry about is that that's reflective of case counts from several weeks ago, 50,000 case counts a day. We can expect at a 2 percent to 3 percent mortality when we have case counts of 180,000 a day that our mortality rates in the weeks ahead could be up to 3,000 to 5,000 a day. The other thing that's extremely concerning to me is that when we are at such limited hospital beds, when we have no ICU care, all care is compromised.

It is not just COVID care. We can't care well for anything that comes in the door. So now you worry not just about the mortality associated with COVID but the excess mortality associated with the fact that we can't care for other things well either.

BLITZER: Secretary Duncan, do you have a question that you might -- you and your family might want to ask Dr. Walensky? She's a world- class expert in this area.

DUNCAN: No. Again, I just appreciate what she and so many experts are doing. I just -- it breaks my heart. This is just -- Dr. Gupta called it a humanitarian crisis. We shouldn't be here as a country. We don't need to be here, to have so many families across the nation suffering unnecessarily because we didn't deal with this early. I just thank her and every doctor who fight so hard on all of our behalfs. And it just -- it shouldn't be this difficult. We shouldn't be here.

BLITZER: Yes. It's an awful, awful situation.

Secretary Duncan, we wish you and the entire family a very, very speedy recovery.

Dr. Walensky, we thank you for all the critically important work you're doing. We appreciate it very much.

One quick question, Dr. Walensky, before I let you go. Do you agree with Secretary Duncan, this is a time for families to be really cautious in advance of Thanksgiving and be nervous about maybe having a traditional Thanksgiving dinner?

WALENSKY: Yes. And if there's one point that I think we all need to be conveying over the next couple of weeks is please stay home with your limited family. Don't mix pods. Don't mix families. Don't put multi- generations together who have not been together for the last several weeks and months. That is a recipe for more disease. I think, you know, nobody wants to be the Scrooge here, nobody wants to say that you should not have a festive holiday.

But I think we need to play the long game here. And hopefully by Thanksgiving 2021, everybody around that table will be vaccinated and everybody will be there.

BLITZER: God willing. Thank you so much, Dr. Walensky. Secretary Duncan, thanks for speaking out. I think what you're both doing potentially will be saving lives. Convincing the American public out there and people watching us all over the world. Do simple things. Simply wear a mask, social distance, wash your hands, be very, very careful.

Our thanks to both of you. And good luck, Secretary Duncan. We really appreciate it.

So could Washington's inaction on a COVID stimulus economic bill be resulting in more cases and hurting the nation's front line workers? My next guest, the former 2020 presidential candidate, Andrew Yang, he's standing by live. We have much to discuss. We will when we come back.

[20:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Tomorrow, President-elect Joe Biden will give an important speech on the U.S. economy. This of course comes as so many Americans are really struggling right now in the midst of this coronavirus pandemic which has infected 11 million Americans over the past few months. A million of them, a million of them in the last six days alone.

Our political commentator, the former Democratic 2020 presidential candidate Andrew Yang is joining us right now.

Andrew, thanks so much for joining us. So what would you like to hear from the president-elect when he and the vice president-elect Kamala Harris speak out on the economy tomorrow?

ANDREW YANG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Joe and Kamala share the point of view of most Americans, Wolf, which is that the economy and getting the coronavirus under control are really the same thing in practice. So we need a plan to do both at the same time. Certainly, the economic relief would be much, much smoother sailing if Congress actually passed a stimulus bill that you and I both know is at this point months overdue.

So I hope that part of this speech is going to be pushing Congress to get to the table and try and hammer out a deal as soon as possible, even before yearend, before Joe takes office.

[20:35:10]

Because at this point, Americans around the country can't wait to get help, though it seems like we might be waiting until Joe does take office next year. And people may be waiting until February or even later.

BLITZER: Yes. Every day is critically important. We saw those long lines in Dallas today. People waiting for food. They were waiting and waiting and waiting. So many thousands and thousands. Look at all those cars just waiting to get some free food because they're struggling right now.

Millions of Americans, Andrew, they're suffering financially. We see no stimulus deal in the works right now. Why is that? Why can't Republicans and Democrats realize as I've often said, you know what, you can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. You've got to help these people. You've got to pass this legislation right away.

YANG: You and I were both afraid of this very scenario, Wolf, which is we're in a lame duck session and it's harder to get big bills passed when some members of Congress are literally packing their bags. They're in their office, you know, like trying to sort out their affairs because they're going to leaving in the next number of days or weeks. But that should not impede Congress because at this point the issues are so well-known.

They've been negotiating over them for months. Chuck Schumer came out and said, please, Mitch, let's pass a bill. Outgoing former president Trump tweeted that he wanted to see a bill. So at this point, it really is mystifying why they can't get a deal hammered out between Speaker Pelosi and Mitch McConnell because the parameters have been so well-defined. They've been negotiating in theory for months.

BLITZER: Yes. There's so many millions of Americans who are unemployed. And many of them do get unemployment benefits. But millions aren't eligible for unemployment benefits. And they're struggling right now. They can't pay rent. They can't even get food on the table. That's why we see those long lines of people waiting for some free food.

Let me ask you some of the political issues underway right now. Your campaign, when you ran for the Democratic nomination, centered around math. That was the big issue. When you see the president of the United States still insisting he won and then you see the electoral college, he lost, you see the popular vote, he's down by more than 5.5 million votes, how do you square that?

What does the president need to realize right now how dangerous it is what he is doing refusing to allow this transition process to go forward?

YANG: We have not seen anything like this before, Wolf. And it's corrosive and cynical. A lot of Republicans are going along with it because they think they need Trump supporters on January 5th in the special Senate races that will determine the balance of power in the Senate. The thought is that, well, if we play along with Trump's failure to concede, then we can keep those voters animated.

But there are real dangers to the country where you have folks that are ready to assume power, not able to talk to current agencies and administration officials. And you have people who are part of the administration kind of pantomiming and coming up with phantom plans for an administration we know they're not going to be a part of. So this is dangerous. It's cynical. It's political. And Trump wants to take his following with him out the door and he thinks that failing to concede will help him do just that.

BLITZER: Andrew Yang, thanks so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. We'll continue this conversation, as I say, down the road. Thank you for joining us.

YANG: Thanks, Wolf. Congress, pass a stimulus bill. Millions need it.

BLITZER: Yes. I totally agree.

Coming up, President Trump is vowing to press on with his legal challenges to the election results across multiple states. But as many of the claims of voter fraud completely fizzle, we'll take a look at what his chances are. Does he have any chance at all? The short answer is no.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:43:15]

BLITZER: President Trump is now putting his personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani at the helm of his campaign's coordinated effort to try to undermine the election results. On FOX News, Giuliani defended a tweet from the president which suggested at least briefly that Trump seems to be coming to terms with his election loss. But the president's attorney doesn't see it that way at all. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PERSONAL ATTORNEY: What he is saying is more I guess -- you'd call it sarcastic or a comment on the terrible times in which we live in which the media has said he won. But by going on to point out that it was illegal, obviously. He is contesting it vigorously in the courts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Let's discuss with Preet Bharara. He's a CNN legal -- senior legal analyst, a former U.S. attorney in New York.

Preet, thanks so much for joining us. What's your reaction first of all when you hear what Giuliani is saying, what they're trying to do? We suspect that maybe the Trump campaign wasn't going to leave without a fight. But do they really stand a chance at all?

PREET BHARARA, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: No, not from what I see. I mean, I think case after case after case has been brought in not only bad faith but has been unsuccessful. The Trump campaign and his allies have brought cases that have had as plaintiff the wrong party. They brought suit against people as defendants who are in the wrong party. They brought suits in the wrong court.

Case after case after case -- excuse me -- sometimes with a laugh from the court and sometimes with disdain from the court. Those cases have been dismissed. You know, I'm not a particular specialized expert in election law and neither apparently are President Trump's lawyers. And you also see reporting that there are a number of lawyers who refuse to come on the case and President Trump has complained about the quality of his lawyering.

[20:45:03]

Rudy Giuliani has generally played the role not of a lawyer in a court room, but someone who does PR and does press, including at Four Seasons Total Landscaping. And so what he says about the prospects of these suits going forward and being victorious, I don't put much stock in.

BLITZER: How long do you think the president and his so-called legal time, Giuliani and company, can drag this out?

BHARARA: It's hard to say because different cases are at different stages of litigation. I think they are rapidly being dismissed. He's got a deadline of depending on how you think about it, December 14th when the electors meet and they vote. The bottom line is, even if it's the case that some subset of these suits had some merit, the consequence of prevailing even on that subset of cases, which I don't believe is true, but the consequence nothing.

Because at the end of the day, the only thing that will matter is if the Trump campaign can overturn the election results in at least three states which right now Biden is winning in by tens of thousands of votes. This is not 2000 when the entire election turned upon 537 votes in one state, Florida. Donald Trump has to win again and again and again in multiple states, and that has to happen soon because the electors vote and a new president takes office in 60 some odd days. So time is running out.

BLITZER: The president of course is in a lame duck period now of his presidency. The urgent business of presidential pardons, as you know, is likely to top one of his checklist items before leaving office. Does the president have the ability to pardon himself before leaving office?

BHARARA: So I don't believe so. And I think the weight of judicial opinion and expertise and reasoning and common sense, and logic and justice and fairness -- I can use 10 other words -- is on the side of not being able to pardon yourself. This has only come up in speculation that I'm aware of one time in American history. That was during the time of Richard Nixon when there was some thought that maybe he was considering doing just that, pardoning himself pre- emptively. And the Office of Legal Counsel, in a very brief opinion, it doesn't

cite a lot of authority because there's no precedent for it, basically cites the universal age-old rule that no one can be a judge in his own case. That that would be fundamentally unfair. So I believe the weight of authority is against his being able to pardon himself. The problem with that is, it is technically unsettled because it's never been decided by the courts.

And an argument could be made -- I don't think it's a very plausible argument but an argument can be made that he can, and if he does so, how is that going to get litigated? The only way it gets litigated as far as I can see, as a pragmatic matter, is he issues himself a pardon. At some point in the future some prosecutor tries to test that pardon in a federal case. And then it gets litigated.

So he can do it. I think it looks terrible. He doesn't seem to care much about his legacy given how he's dealing with coronavirus in the days winding down, you know, going forward. But as a technical legal matter, people are going to talk about this because maybe he can.

BLITZER: Preet Bharara, as usual, thank you so much for joining us.

BHARARA: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: Coming up, why some of President Trump's most diehard supporters are now saying FOX News is too liberal. We'll be right back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't trust FOX News.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were fading fast.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's crap.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't even watch FOX anymore.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even FOX News is crooked.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:52:57]

BLITZER: The outgoing president of the United States Donald Trump made no secret in recent years as to which cable news network was his favorite. And believe me, it wasn't necessarily this one. But the president appears to have soured on FOX News. And some of his supporters apparently feel the same way.

CNN's Donie O'Sullivan spoke to some of them.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fake news. CNN. Fake news. Fake news. Fake news.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: FOX sucks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point, I don't trust FOX News.

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Were you guys FOX News fans up until election night?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were fading fast.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we're fading fast. FOX News is --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We like Tucker.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's crap.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FOX News called Arizona way early. They never switched it. They never switched it when it got close.

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST: Who do you think is pulling Biden's strings?

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): FOX News has been a favorite media outlet for President Trump.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I watched "FOX and Friends" in the morning. We've had some incredible strength in terms of people like Sean Hannity, the great Lou Dobbs. I mean, I like some of the things on FOX. Certainly Sean and Laura, and Tucker has been great lately.

O'SULLIVAN: And the network has been criticized for being Trump's mouthpiece.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Pro-Trump outlets and some of FOX's biggest stars are enabling this alternative reality that claims that Biden is not president-elect.

O'SULLIVAN: But during the campaign, as Joe Biden pulled ahead in the polls and was eventually declared the president-elect, many Trump supporters I spoke to said they no longer trust FOX News.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't even watch the news anymore. I don't even watch FOX anymore because they're getting just as bad as the other ones.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): What's your main source of information?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My main source is I listen to Alex Jones.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When George Floyd, that all happened, I stopped following CNN, FOX News.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: CNN sucks, man.

O'SULLIVAN: Why do you think CNN sucks? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because you suck. You are the worst news ever. So

slanted.

O'SULLIVAN: Where do you get your news from?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OAN, baby.

O'SULLIVAN: OAN?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're a lot more honest than you. Even FOX News is crooked.

O'SULLIVAN: Even FOX?

[20:55:03]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Good luck, bud. Only one good on FOX is Tucker Carlson. Maybe a little bit of Greg Gutfeld. The rest of them, slanted liberals.

O'SULLIVAN: Doesn't Trump like FOX? He calls in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not anymore probably.

O'SULLIVAN: He called in on election day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. Does he?

O'SULLIVAN: He called in on election day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe.

O'SULLIVAN: He did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe.

O'SULLIVAN: No. He did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I don't know.

O'SULLIVAN: I watched it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Donie O'Sullivan, thanks for that report.

For the first time today, President Trump suggested albeit very briefly that maybe, maybe Joe Biden won the election. But he's also insisting he is not conceding and he's throwing out all sorts of wild conspiracies. So what's next? We'll be right back.

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