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The Situation Room

Rudy Giuliani and Jenna Ellis Announced Attorney Sidney Powell Not Part of Trump's Legal Team; Interview with Lieutenant Governor John Fetterman (D-PA) about Trump's Election Lawsuit; U.S. Sees Three Million Cases, 25,000 Deaths in November Alone; Biden Set to Announce First Cabinet Picks Tuesday; Interview with Governor Jared Polis (D- CO) about COVID-19 Surge; Trump Could be a Liability to Georgia's Senate Runoffs. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired November 22, 2020 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[20:00:35]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. This is a special edition of THE SITUATION ROOM.

The Republican wall of support around President Trump and his refusal to accept the election results starting, clearly starting to show major cracks. One of the president's most unwavering supporters slamming the president's legal team today as, quote, "a national embarrassment." Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR: What happened here is, quite frankly, the president's legal team has been a national embarrassment. I've been a supporter of the president's. I voted for him twice. But elections have consequences. And we cannot continue to act as if something happened here that didn't happen.

The country is what has to matter the most. As much as I'm a strong Republican and I love my party, it's the country that has to come first.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Chris Christie, the former New Jersey governor. And just a little while ago this statement from Alaska's senior senator, also a Republican, Lisa Murkowski. She writes, "It is incumbent upon all of us to ensure that we respect the integrity of the election process and uphold Americans' faith in our electoral system." Adding this, quote, "It is time to begin the full and formal transition process," close quote.

Let's go straight to the White House. Jeremy Diamond is on the scene for us.

Jeremy, more than one enormous development surrounding the White House tonight. Not only is the president under mounting pressure from Republicans to accept reality, but the president's own legal team is publicly fighting amongst themselves. Help our viewers understand what's going on because it's hard to believe all this craziness.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, this evening, the president's lawyers Rudy Giuliani and Jenna Ellis announcing in a statement that Sidney Powell, an attorney who the president announced himself on Twitter, was joining his legal team just a little over a week ago, that Giuliani and Ellis announcing that Sidney Powell is not a member of the legal team. What they need to say is that she's no longer a member of the legal team.

But they're trying to convince us that somehow she never was which of course is absurd given what you're seeing on your screen right now which is Sidney Powell, the attorney in question, right alongside Rudy Giuliani and Jenna Ellis, delivering a presentation to reporters that delved heavily into all these conspiracy theories about the 2020 election. Rudy Giuliani during that news conference actually said, I'm in charge of this investigation with Sidney and the people you see here, referring to Sidney Powell, that very same attorney.

Now the question, Wolf, is what exactly did Sidney Powell do here to cross the line for team Trump? She has been peddling in conspiracy theories about the 2020 election throughout her time as a member of the president's legal. She has alleged that the CIA was involved. She has alleged that the late leader of Venezuela Hugo Chavez was involved in this. And she's even more recently that Republican Governor Brian Kemp of the state of Georgia was involved in rigging the election in that state.

Of course none of these claims have any basis in fact or reality. And the other thing to note, Wolf, is that they're not all that far removed from the conspiracy theories and baseless allegations that the president and his attorneys Rudy Giuliani and Jenna Ellis have also been alleging. They've also delved into this notion that this Dominion voting software somehow deleted votes for the president, which of course is not true and which that company and election officials across the country have repeatedly refuted.

But, Wolf, as all of this is happening, the president is losing in the courts. More than two dozen cases that the president has had in state and federal courts have either been dismissed or withdrawn by the Trump legal team. And as all of that is happening, you're seeing the pressure from Republican lawmakers in Washington beginning to build on the president to finally admit reality here and either allow the transition to proceed or concede this election.

BLITZER: Yes. Very important stuff that's going on. Jeremy Diamond at the White House, thanks very much.

From the White House, let's head over to Pennsylvania right now, a state that Joe Biden won by more than 81,000 votes. Last night a judge issued a strongly worded ruling tossing out a Trump campaign lawsuit aiming to overturn the results there. Today the campaign actually went ahead and filed an appeal.

I'm joined now by the Pennsylvania Lieutenant Governor John Fetterman.

Lieutenant Governor, thank you so much for joining us. I know you've got a lot going on over there. You've been very outspoken on this, pushing back on Republican voter fraud claims, the president's legal battle.

[20:05:01]

So what's your reaction to this ruling and the appeal?

LT. GOV. JOHN FETTERMAN (D), PENNSYLVANIA: LOL?

(LAUGHTER)

FETTERMAN: I mean, I don't know what else you can say. But LOL. And the fact that they let her go, it's like that -- the most shocking thing was that the Trump campaign has standards at this point. Like, I don't know how -- I mean, who are they going to recruit at this point? You know, you're trying to argue disenfranchising seven million Pennsylvanians when the only two documented cases of voter fraud in Pennsylvania voted for the president, including a dead mom and a live son. So I don't know -- I'm not sure where they're going with it.

BLITZER: Because I know it's a very strange and very crazy but the GOP is also suing to invalidate not a few hundred or a few thousand but all of Pennsylvania's mail-in ballots.

FETTERMAN: Yes.

BLITZER: That would be more than 2.6 million votes cast by Pennsylvania citizens. You pointed out that Republicans were the ones who voted to implement mail-in voting in Pennsylvania.

FETTERMAN: Yes.

BLITZER: So do you think this legal case as it's technically called will go anywhere?

FETTERMAN: My first dispute is that you call it a legal case.

BLITZER: Right.

FETTERMAN: I mean, I don't even know what you call it at this point. We're -- you know, it's like a busted out version of "Game of Thrones." But it's just sad. And I don't understand where they are going with it. I legitimately don't. And the fact of the matter is, Joe Biden won Pennsylvania by over 80,000 votes. So the same likelihood that they would have a case is the same likelihood that we have left enchanted village of Trump voters uncounted somewhere in Pennsylvania that no one realized yet. I mean, it's fantasy at this point.

BLITZER: Yes. We checked a little while ago just to remind me. Biden beat Trump in your state of Pennsylvania by 81,479 votes. 81,479. Trump beat Hillary Clinton four years in Pennsylvania by 44,292, about half of what Biden won in Pennsylvania this time. And as we all remember, Trump was saying, it's a landslide, it was amazing what was going on. He only won your state by 44,292 votes.

You've been confident, Lieutenant Governor, that this will all eventually fail, that Joe Biden will take office on January 20th. But do you think this will do long-term damage? Will it provide a template for future candidates who may one day successfully use courts to overturn results?

FETTERMAN: I don't. I think the only defining lesson for any future campaign that would try to do this is, you can't be as sad and demented as the Trump campaign has performed. I mean, you know, like, that's really the only lesson is like don't do what they've tried to do in Pennsylvania and elsewhere because they have literally no basis. It's not even fantasy at this point. I don't know who's left that's willing to acknowledge what's really going on here.

So, I mean, and the thing is that if they somehow would not allow Pennsylvania to certify our results, they would effectively mean that by November 30th, we don't even have a statehouse and have our state Senate. And those are controlled by Republicans.

(LAUGHTER)

FETTERMAN: It's like a circular firing squad on themselves. And I don't -- I legitimately am baffled. I mean, I'm enjoying it because it's just -- it just keeps unraveling. But at the end of the day, we all know how this movie is going to end. And the person that knows better than anyone is the president. He knows it. And it's just time to admit it's ball game.

BLITZER: But are you concerned, Lieutenant Governor, that the president will invite Republican legislators to come to the Washington and come to the White House --

FETTERMAN: I hope they do.

BLITZER: -- and meet with him?

FETTERMAN: I hope they do. I might go, dude. You know, have a ball. You know, we just had an COVID outbreak in the Pennsylvania house. And that's going to be an issue. And like I said there are not going to be legislators after November 30th unless we certify the vote. And if we certify the vote, Joe Biden wins Pennsylvania. Like I said so go. Go to the White House if you want. But, you know, we're going to just stick here in Pennsylvania, certify our vote, declare Joe Biden the winner as Pennsylvanians did by over 80,000 votes. And have a great Thanksgiving. That's my plan, anyway.

BLITZER: If you win a state by not just 80 but 81,000 plus votes, you have won that state. And you've won those electoral votes.

Lieutenant Governor John Fetterman of Pennsylvania, thanks so much for joining us. Hope you have a happy Thanksgiving.

FETTERMAN: You as well. Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Thank you. For more on President Trump's uphill legal battles to try to overturn the election results, I'm joined now by the former U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, Preet Bharara. Preet is now a CNN legal analyst.

By CNN's count, Preet, the Trump team has lost or withdrawn not one or two or five or 10 but 30 -- 30 election lawsuits around the country.

[20:10:05]

PREET BHARARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Is there any actual legal end game here? Or is this simply a spectacle that we are seeing right now unfold?

I would say the latter, Wolf. The legal strategy has failed. The legal attempts by President Trump and his campaign to overturn elections in not one state but multiple states. They failed in state court, they failed in federal court, they failed in appeals courts in both the federal and state system. And there's really no legal strategy. That's evidenced by opinion after opinion, including by conservative jurists, who have said there's no basis to these legal claims.

It's evidenced also by the fact that very little legal talent is being brought to bear. You know, some of the people who have normally represented the president and this interest and his campaign interests in the past are nowhere to be found.

So this is, as you put it, spectacle. Another way to put it is sort of performative behavior for his base to try to convince a subset of the American public, many of whom voted for him, that the election was stolen and he was robbed so he can make a case either for personal aggrievement when he goes into his television business after January 20th, or if he just chooses to run again. There's nothing to this in case after case after case, other than grievance and making rhetorical point.

BLITZER: They make these arguments in court. But they're not producing any evidence in these cases. Is there any reason they would want to hold on to clear evidence, keep it secret, not present it before a judge? Maybe use it at a later date? They say they don't want to release this evidence because it could potentially hurt or threaten some of the eyewitnesses.

BHARARA: Now I don't see that in any of these cases. I mean, there is to be sure in the subset of cases where it's being decided just on the pleadings, in other words it's a motion to dismiss posture, there's not necessarily a hearing of evidence. But given the outcry here and given the results in these cases, it makes no sense to withhold evidence if you have it. But the other thing I would say about your question, it's interesting.

They are not necessarily making these arguments in court as others have pointed out as well. They go on television and they have press conferences, whether it's at the landscaping spot or some other kind of place, and they allege fraud over and over and over again. And then they get into court where there are consequences for telling falsehoods and making misstatements and lying to the court, if you're an officer of the court in particular, and they don't make fraud allegations.

So the claims being made in court are much softer than the claims being made on the airwaves. That tells you something about the quality of the case as well.

BLITZER: Because what I hear you saying -- I've heard this from other lawyers, you can lie publicly if you're a politician all you want but if you go into a court and you lie to the judge, you could you lose your license and maybe even wind up in jail. Is that right?

BHARARA: It is. And by the way, this is not a new phenomenon. Others have written about this. Donald Trump throughout his career as a business person, even before he became a politician, makes outrageous and outlandish comments in public because that's not a crime, and you can mislead the public, I guess, if you want under our system, and, you know, given the First Amendment.

And in case after case after case, President Trump has been deposed. And other people around the president, this is true of Michael Cohen, this is true of Roger Stone, they make outlandish, you know, bravado kinds of comments in public to the press. But then you get in front of a court under oath, where there is someone in a black robe who has the ability to punish you, the tune changes.

So that's another reason why, going back to your first question, this is much more spectacle than it is legal strategy and argument.

BLITZER: Yes. Because they don't want to lose their legal license and wind up in jail. Even Republican friendly judges are tossing out these cases, like we saw last night in Pennsylvania. So what does that tell you?

BHARARA: It tells me at the end of the day, you know, we have these conversations which I think are unfortunate about whether someone is an Obama judge or a Trump judge or a Republican or Democratic judge. And there is something to that when you have politically charged issues often that come before the Supreme Court. But there are threshold that matters. And there are thresholds of, you know, sobriety in making arguments to a court.

And in the class of professionals who rise to the bench and get appointed to the bench, there's a base level argument that you need to make with both the facts and the law. And if you have people of every stripe appointed by Democrats, by Republicans, whatever their affiliations were before they went to the bench, which is a non- political, the fact that across the board they are rejecting these lawsuits tells you I think all you need to know. That there's no merit.

BLITZER: Yes. All right. Preet, thank you very much. Preet Bharara, helping us better appreciate the legal aspects of all of this.

BHARARA: Thanks, Wolf.

[20:15:00] BLITZER: In just the past 22 days, there have been more than three million new cases of the coronavirus nationwide here in the U.S. And now the CDC is urging Americans to do something simple. Stay home for Thanksgiving. But will Americans listen? We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Three million new cases of coronavirus, get this, here in the United States just since November 1st. Three million new cases. With Thanksgiving just around the corner, Dr. Anthony Fauci is urging caution when it comes to family gatherings. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: One of the spots, if you want to call them, where you have a risk is seemingly innocent family, friends get together indoors. I mean, seems like the most natural thing. So that's the reason why when we tell people, consider the people that you want to get into your own family unit. Do you want to bring a large number of people with a big dinner party or a social event?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Right.

[20:20:03]

FAUCI: And when you're eating and drinking, obviously you have to take your mask off. We know now that those are the kinds of situations that are leading to outbreaks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: CNN medical analyst Dr. Jonathan Reiner is joining us. He's a professor of medicine at George Washington University here in Washington, D.C. Also with us Dr. Patrice Harris, former president of the American Medical Association.

Dr. Reiner, we heard earlier today from Dr. Moncef Slaoui, head of what's called Operation Warp Speed, the federal government's vaccine development program. He thinks a vaccine could be available under emergency use by in mid-December, in just a few weeks. He lays out a timeline that predicts we'd return to some version of normality early next year. Do you share that kind of optimism?

DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: I do. When we return to normalcy, depends on several things. Particularly how avidly the public gets vaccinated. You know, in order for us to have normalcy, the public has to feel they are protected. I haven't eaten inside in a restaurant since the first week in March. I haven't been to a movie theater since before that. I would love to do both those things.

I will not do that unless I am vaccinated. And I think the rest of the country, the vast majority of the country, I think feels the same way. So in order for us to get the sense of normalcy, you know, to feel comfortable in a crowd, to go into a movie theater, you have to feel like you are protected. And also, you have to feel that the viral load in the environment is low. And to do that, we need to vaccinate a huge part of this country. So that's going to take months.

BLITZER: Yes. Let me get Dr. Harris to weigh in. What do you think, Dr. Harris?

DR. PATRICE HARRIS, FORMER PRESIDENT, AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION: Well, certainly, we've heard the promising news about the vaccines and therapeutics. But we know that it's not enough to have the vaccine developed and distributed. We have to get folks to take the vaccine. And we all know that there's a great deal of vaccine hesitancy. But again we've seen the promising news. There will be a process. It will be a transparent process.

We will then be able to make recommendations to our patients. But in the meantime, as Dr. Reiner had said, this will be the middle of next year. We still have to make sure we are doing those basic public health measures to stay safe, particularly around this holiday season.

BLITZER: How long do you predict, Dr. Reiner, it will take before enough people have immunity to effectively stop the spread?

REINER: Well, it's going to take a while. So we think in order to achieve a vaccine induced herd immunity, you need somewhere between 60 percent to 70 percent of the population to be immune. We're lucky that we have two vaccines right out of the box that appear to have 95 percent -- that are 95 percent effective. So almost everyone who gets the vaccine should be immune.

But it takes about a week after the second dose, both the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines have two doses. Pfizer, three weeks apart, Moderna, four weeks apart. And it looks like you're not really immune until about a week after the second dose. So four weeks and five weeks after your first dose.

We won't have more than about 20 million people, assuming that the Pfizer vaccine is approved and Moderna shortly after that, 20 million people vaccinated in December. Perhaps another 20 to 25 million people vaccinated in February, January, and then February and March, a bit more. Should be freely open to the public in about March and April.

Bu we're going to need about 225 million people vaccinated. And if we're just using the double vaccination preparations, that's about 500 million, half a billion injections. It's going to take a long time to do that. I think by summer, we'll start to have a good number of people vaccinated. And things are going to feel more normal. But we're going to be wearing masks for many months. Even if you get vaccinated, you could be wearing a mask.

BLITZER: Yes. I suspect we're going to be wearing masks for most of next year even with all the vaccines that are going on.

REINER: Right.

BLITZER: Dr. Reiner, Dr. Harris, to both of you, I hope you both have a happy Thanksgiving. Thanks so much for joining us.

REINER: Same to you.

HARRIS: Thanks, Wolf. You too.

BLITZER: President-elect Joe Biden is expected to announce his first cabinet picks on Tuesday. So who is on the list? We're getting new information. We'll share it with you when we come back.

[20:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: President-elect Joe Biden is about to announce some major cabinet picks on Tuesday. Sources now tell CNN that the secretary of State position will be among them and that Tony Blinken is a top contender. Blinken is a former deputy of state under President Obama.

CNN's Arlette Saenz's is joining us from Wilmington, Delaware, right now. She's been covering the transition very, very closely.

So, Arlette, what exactly are we learning here at CNN?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, President- elect Joe Biden is expected to announce his first cabinet picks on Tuesday. And secretary of State is expected to be among those first announcements that the president-elect will be making. And the leading contender -- one of the leading contenders for that job is Tony Blinken. He is a former deputy secretary of State and also has been a longtime foreign policy adviser to Joe Biden.

[20:30:07]

In fact, he was here in Delaware last week when Biden had that briefing with national security experts, which Blinken took part in. And Blinken was also spotted by reporters walking out of a building with Joe Biden last week. And this is just one of several positions that we are expecting the former vice president to be announcing in these coming weeks as he is putting together the cabinet that will help lead his administration.

Biden has expedited his timeline for making these announcements. It was originally expected that he would make his first pick, that he would publicly make them, announce after the Thanksgiving holiday. But now he has sped that timeline up and they are coming before Thanksgiving. All part of Biden's efforts to show that he is able to assemble an administration even as the Trump administration continues to put up roadblocks to his official transition.

We have also heard Biden talk about how he has already decided on his Treasury secretary as well. One of the top contenders considered for that job is Lael Brainard of the Federal Reserve. So we are seeing Biden making these moves. He will be making his announcements come Tuesday as he is trying to put together this administration that will lead the early days of this White House.

BLITZER: Arlette, stand by. I want to bring in CNN national security analyst, Samantha Vinograd.

Sam, you know Tony Blinken. I know Tony Blinken. He was until relatively recently a CNN national security analyst as well. He goes way back with Biden to when Biden was a senator, a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Tony worked with him on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He was then principal national security adviser to the Vice President Joe Biden, then he became -- he was the main national security adviser to Biden as vice president.

He was principal national security adviser to President Obama, principal deputy national security adviser, I should say. And then he became deputy secretary of State. So he's got a wealth of experience. He's worked very closely with President Obama and then Vice President Biden. So they know him well.

SAMANTHA VINOGRAD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: They certainly do. And when we look at what Tony Blinken would bring to this job, he would certainly bring experience, both in the White House. I worked with him for four years in the West Wing. He returned to the White House. His experience working in Congress and with Congress. He would also bring deep experience within the State Department, Wolf.

He was deputy secretary of State at a time when the State Department had been ravaged by low morale and Secretary of State Pompeo's poor management. Tony Blinken would be well positioned to repair morale within the State Department. He is also a well-known commodity overseas. One of the primary responsibilities for the next secretary of State will be restoring U.S. credibility.

Tony Blinken in his role as deputy National Security adviser and his role as deputy secretary of State engaged extensively with global counterparts. They know him. They know that he speaks on behalf, in this case, of President-elect Biden. And they trust him which will come in very handy as the United States seeks to repair its image overseas.

BLITZER: Another person we know well is Jake Sullivan, who's apparently a leading contender to be the president-elect's National Security adviser in the White House. A frequent guest here in THE SITUATION ROOM over the years.

Tell us a little bit more about Jake Sullivan. You know well. You worked closely with him.

VINOGRAD: Certainly. I worked with Jake for four years and have been in close touch with him ever since I left the White House. Jake brings experience in the State Department. He worked with then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, experienced working for then Vice President Joe Biden as his National Security adviser.

And overall, Wolf, Jake brings a deep sense of both organization and strategy to everything that he does. The National Security process under President Trump has atrophied. It's almost nonexistent. Jake is not only smart and strategic. He also knows how to run an efficient process. And would be able based upon his deep experience in the West Wing to hit the ground running on day one, to start making national security decisions, to start getting that process up and running again, and really would again know how to work with agencies and departments like the State Department, the intelligence community and others. He is an expert in his field and would be an excellent choice for National Security adviser.

BLITZER: I want to show our viewers a picture. Tony Blinken, who's high on the list to potentially become the secretary of State. There you see him in the White House Situation Room. They were all watching the effort to go capture and eventually kill Osama bin Laden. But you see him there. You see Hillary Clinton, you see President Obama. You see the top National Security officials there at the White House watching very, very closely what was going on. So he knows what's going on as far as national security, Samantha, is concerned.

[20:35:08]

VINOGRAD: Tony Blinken and Jake Sullivan both know about all the issues that are going to be confronting President-elect Joe Biden on January 20th at 12:01 p.m. You look at an issue like Iran. Jake Sullivan was knee deep in the negotiations for the Iran nuclear deal. When you look at confronting China or confronting Russia, both of these individuals are leading contenders again for National Security adviser and for secretary of State, know these issues inside out.

They know the players. They know which parts of the U.S. government need to be in the situation room sitting around the table discussing options with the president. So they can start working on these issues immediately. There won't be a very big learning curve, Wolf.

BLITZER: But you would think that during this transition period, all these individuals, they had and probably still have the highest national security classified credentials that they need. They all know exactly what's going on. You would think that the president, President Trump, would authorize daily intelligence briefings for all of them so come January 20th, they would hit the ground running.

VINOGRAD: Wolf, it certainly looks like President Trump is trying to kneecap the incoming administration rather than helping them to prepare to govern on day one. I don't know the status of Tony Blinken or Jake Sullivan's security clearances. They've been out of government for some time. I know that they are actively engaged with as many experts as possible but because of the delay in transition, not only are they not getting intelligence briefings, they also cannot legally engage with current administration officials that they need to.

So Tony Blinken, if he's not nominated, cannot go and sit at the State Department and speak with State Department personnel. We need this GSA ascertainment. And finally the transition team, the incoming administration's team cannot finish the security clearance and vetting process for cabinet nominees until this ascertainment is finished. So President Trump's failure to concede the election, the administrator of the General Services Administration's failure to ascertain the apparent winner of the election, could represent hurdles in terms of getting someone like Jake, someone like Tony security clearances if they don't have them and getting Tony vetted so that he can schedule confirmation hearing. BLITZER: Samantha, stand by. I want to bring in CNN national security

analyst David Sanger of the "New York Times."

David, you know Tony Blinken. You know Jake Sullivan. You know they're both high on the list to become secretary of State, National Security adviser. What do you think?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Wolf, this would put together -- back together a team that was very familiar during the Obama administration. I would say that Mr. Blinken was certainly among those closest to both Vice President Biden and, of course to President Obama. The same for Jake Sullivan. They are both quite centrist in the world of democratic foreign policy luminaries.

Mr. Sullivan is quite young. He's 43. For Tony Blinken, he is 58. I have known Tony for decades. And I can tell you that he is right out of the sort of tradition of the cautious interventionism side of the Democratic Party. He is very close to Biden. He's worked for Biden for 20 years. The big question was whether or not Joe Biden would want Tony Blinken to be right down the hall in the National Security Adviser's office or secretary of State.

But in getting Jake Sullivan, if in fact he ends up as the National Security adviser, which seems to be one of the leading possibilities right now, another is Avril Haines. He's somebody else he's worked with very closely over the years. We've actually expected Jake Sullivan to have a domestic job. So this would have been something of a last-minute change.

BLITZER: Yes. They're both, as you correctly point out, and all of us know them, highly, highly experienced in their respective jobs.

Briefly, give us your thoughts. I'm curious, David, the difference between the current secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, and if Tony Blinken becomes the next secretary of State, two different individuals.

SANGER: Mars and Venus. Tony Blinken is all about building alliances and you have -- and would be the first to argue, in fact has been for re-entering the Paris Accord.

[20:40:06]

He's made very impassioned arguments for why the United States was much better off with the Iranians inside the Iran nuclear deal, and has made it clear that if the Iranians are willing to get back to their commitments, so will the United States, which would mean lifting a lot of the current sanctions that President Trump has put on Iran. If Tony Blinken is secretary of State, I think you are going to see a much closer relationship with the Europeans. They know him well. He was educated some as a high school student in Paris, speaks fluent French and is very comfortable with the Europeans.

Jake Sullivan, if he ends up as National Security adviser, was of course National Security adviser as was Mr. Blinken to Vice President Biden when he served as vice president. They were in succession in those jobs. So these are people who Biden feels very comfortable with and who have sort of absorbed the Joe Biden world view. And of course, Joe Biden world view is much of this is based on relationships. And both these men have longstanding relationships around the world.

BLITZER: They certainly do. And I think there would be as you correctly point out, and Sam correctly points out, there would be some major differences between the outgoing national security policy, foreign policy as opposed to the incoming.

All right, Samantha Vinograd, David Sanger, Arlette Saenz, guys, thank you very, very much. We'll stay on top of this story.

There's other important news we're following here in THE SITUATION ROOM. Like much of the country, Colorado now is seeing a big spike in new cases just ahead of Thanksgiving. The state's governor, Jared Polis, he's standing by live. We'll discuss what he's telling folks in Colorado when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:41:01]

BLITZER: For months, governors have had to make very, very life and death tough decisions about how to respond to the pandemic in their states. Over the summer, Colorado's Governor Jared Polis required residents to wear masks when they were at public indoor spaces and could not social distance. Now like much of the country the virus is surging in Colorado, just days before Thanksgiving.

The Colorado governor Jared Polis is joining us right now.

Governor, I know you've got a lot going on. Thanks so much for joining us. I know there has been some serious resistance to your mask requirement in Colorado. What would you say to critics who would look at those rising case numbers and think, you know what, it's not working, the numbers of cases, hospitalizations and deaths, all over the country right now are exploding?

GOV. JARED POLIS (D-CO): Well, if not for the masks, we'd probably be in a similar situation to the Dakotas and the upper Midwest. Frankly, what we found is first of all the science shows mask wearing is about 50 percent to 75 percent effective. So here we are, Wolf, waiting for a vaccine that's 94 percent or 96 percent effective. We basically have a very simple prevention mechanism that's somewhere between 50 percent and 75 percent effective today.

And so we saw that the counties that required it had higher more mask wearing. We did it statewide. I think it's one of the reasons that Colorado isn't as bad as some of the states to our north.

BLITZER: As you know, President-elect Biden's team is discussing ways to persuade Republican governors to get on board with mandating masks. So what advice would you offer? I know you were part of the meeting, 10 governors, five Republicans, five Democrats, who had that virtual meeting with the president-elect the other day. POLIS: I saw recently the Iowa governor, a Republican, she did it.

Yes, it's common sense because you know what? I mean, whether you're Republican or Democrat, you hear about the economy, you hear about jobs. Wearing a mask, while of course not the most convenient thing in the world, and we all can't wait until we no longer have to wear them again, doesn't cost the economy, doesn't cost jobs.

So it's an easy intervention from that perspective. Higher mask wearing lower the spread of the virus, more opening, more jobs.

BLITZER: President Trump, as you know, is still throwing up major roadblocks for a Biden transition, even as this pandemic is spiraling maybe out of control. On Friday, you said the state's intensive compare capacity in Colorado is at 80 percent to 85 percent right now. Are you concerned the Trump administration's stalling on transition could harm efforts to help residents of Colorado and indeed the American people?

POLIS: Absolutely. You know what, they should put politics aside, start working on the transition in good faith. If they want to, they can call it contingency planning. If somewhere in President Trump's head he thinks he's won the election, at least do what the military is very familiar with, what people in business are very familiar with, contingency planning. If Biden wins the electoral college, becomes president, let's plan to make this a seamless transition, including sharing information on coronavirus and response.

BLITZER: How did that meeting go the other day? You had five Republican governors, five Democratic governors, that meeting with the president-elect? I know the president-elect was anxious to hear what you guys had to say. How did it work out?

POLIS: It was very, very cordial. We had five Democrats, five Republicans. You know, everybody I think knows that, you know, President-elect Biden won the election, is going to become president. Really, scoping out what that relation will look like with governors. And then what we need in terms of the next economic package and the next health package to set up governors and set up states for success in dealing with the aftermath of the pandemic.

BLITZER: I know the president-elect is going to have a bipartisan meeting with mayors tomorrow from around the country. All that very, very important in this transition process.

Governor Polis, good luck to you and good luck to everyone in Colorado. I hope you have a happy Thanksgiving. Thanks so much for joining us.

POLIS: And a safe Thanksgiving, hopefully with people in your own household as well.

[20:50:01]

BLITZER: Really, really important. These are life and death issues. Thank you so much. We're going to continue to follow all the latest developments as

President Trump's legal arguments clearly are floundering in courts all over the country right now. At the same the president is now attacking some members of his own party. We're going to explain what's going on and how that potentially could affect two very key Senate races upcoming in early January in Georgia.

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BLITZER: The state of Georgia will recount the presidential vote after a request from the Trump campaign. The president has attacked the state's Republican secretary of State for certifying the election results this week against the backdrop of political friendly fire.

[20:55:07]

The control of the Senate is clearly at stake. Two runoff races are underway in Georgia and the president's support or attacks could have an impact.

CNN politics reporter and editor-at-large Chris Cillizza is joining us right now.

Chris, lots at stake right now. At what point does the president go from being the party's main event to potentially becoming the party's main liability?

CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER AND EDITOR-AT-LARGE: Yes, I think he's certainly a distraction at this point, Wolf. I think we can say that. Look, January 5th are these two runoffs. It's very difficult -- for the Senate, Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue, both incumbent senators, both in runoffs against Democratic opponents in January 5th.

What you want, if you are those Senate incumbents, is a very clear choice. It's the conservative Republican message versus what they would say is the liberal Democratic message. When you have Donald Trump in there, not only racing money, asking for recounts, but also to your point attacking the Republican secretary of State, and I'll even note, Wolf, attacking the Republican governor of Georgia, Brian Kemp, who other than maybe Ron DeSantis in Florida, is the biggest Trump acolyte in a governor's mansion in the country, you get dissention and distraction.

And that's just not good, particularly when you consider that yes, we've long considered Georgia a Republican state at the presidential level. Joe Biden just won it. So Republicans can't take this for granted and you have the X factor or the free radical of Donald Trump just bouncing all around here and distracting people.

BLITZER: The silence from the majority, almost all of the top people in the Republican Party is starting to chip away. Michigan Republican Congressman Fred Upton, for example, and Maryland Governor Larry Hogan, former New Jersey governor Chris Christie now say it's time to stop all the fighting, the results of the election are clear.

Do you think more Republicans are going to start speaking out right now?

CILLIZZA: I wish I could say I think the answer to that is yes, Wolf, because that's not a partisan statement. I think it's better for democracy. It's quite clear that Joe Biden won the election and peaceful transition of power and accepting that the election was fair even if it didn't turn out the way your candidate wanted it to is core to our democracy.

The people you named, Larry Hogan, yes, he's the governor of Maryland, termed limited out, he's already won two terms and he wants to run for president. Chris Christie isn't in office, although he has been an ally of Donald Trump. Fred Upton has always bit sort of been a moderate, who went his own way. I'll add another one to it who's spoken out, Republican Senator Pat Toomey in Pennsylvania said the election is effectively over in Pennsylvania. It's time to move on. Pat Toomey is retiring in 2022.

So aside from that group and Mitt Romney, throw Ben Sasse from Nebraska in there, and he's got his own national ambitions, everybody is doing this, Wolf, because they're retiring or they have another reason somehow. And that to me -- we're not seeing the core of the Republican Party, Mitch McConnell, Kevin McCarthy, Steve Scalise, John Cornyn, John Barrasso, people in leadership, John Thune.

People in leadership across both parties saying enough is enough. My guy didn't win. I would have preferred Donald Trump to be president. He wound up not being president. He didn't win this election. I understand Joe Biden, we need to move forward as a democracy. And candidly, I think that's a huge problem for the Republican Party, Wolf, because this -- what do you stand for if you don't stand for the candidate who got -- won fair and square, got more popular votes and more electoral votes that that candidate should be president. I don't know where you go from there if you can't believe in that basic principle.

BLITZER: President Trump did get, what, 73 million votes which is huge.

CILLIZZA: Right.

BLITZER: Now President-elect Biden got six million more than that.

CILLIZZA: Right.

BLITZER: But the 73 million, is that what's keeping so many Republicans afraid of speaking out against the president?

CILLIZZA: That and Donald Trump himself. Look, this is a guy who remains extremely popular in the Republican base. He didn't lose, Wolf, because the Republican base abandoned him. He lost because moderate and sort of centrist Republicans, particularly women, particularly in the suburbs, abandoned him. But for the base of the party -- so a lot of these candidates and these politicians, remember, Wolf, they represent safe districts and safe states. Excuse me.

And in order to get re-elected, to keep from getting a primary challenge, you still have to play nice with Donald Trump. And unfortunately, it's coming at the expense of the things that we all should care about that are not partisan, which is again the peaceful transition of power, making sure the American public knows that yes, your vote was counted, even if your person didn't win. It doesn't mean that the election was unfair or rigged.

It just means more people liked the other candidate, preferred the other candidate. And that to me is the problem here. You can't have one party say, we don't accept the results because they are not the one we wanted. That's not how it works.

BLITZER: Well said indeed. Chris Cillizza, thanks as usual for joining us.

CILLIZZA: Thank you. Wolf.

(END)